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Posted to dev@openoffice.apache.org by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org> on 2016/03/17 17:02:54 UTC
AOO Governance (was RE: Next release and gbuild)
Technically, we do not have a management hierarchy on Apache projects, although there are some rather limited governance roles. There can be self-organizing *informal* teams that are basically people working together for some common within-project purpose and those are fluid and definitely self-generated. There is no holacracy. It is important for onlookers to understand there is no executive and there is no *command* structure. It is not possible to compel anything.
There is a form of status with regard to privileges, in that committers are trusted to review and approve the submissions of other contributors and can do more without oversight (while review is always possible). There is also a limited form of governance invested in members of the Project Management Committee (PMC) which have binding votes on release candidates and on procedural and personnel matters such as inviting contributors to become committers and to become members of the PMC. This is all striving toward sustainability of the project.
Effort happens here *only* if someone steps in and operates in a consensus-seeking manner. What is accomplished depends on the capacity, capability, and willingness of such contributors. The sustainability of the project depends in part on how contributed effort leads to the cultivation and preparation of additional contributors so that capacity is continually renewed.
Finally, there is a form of oversight, in that the project is accountable to the foundation for operating in accordance with the foundation bylaws and other principles and practices employed across Apache projects. The Chair of the PMC is ratified by the Board of the Foundation and is an Officer of the Foundation (i.e., Apache Software Foundation Vice President for Apache OpenOffice). The Chair is accountable to the Board while in all other respects being just another member of the PMC.
For Apache OpenOffice, there is more about this form of operation at <https://s.apache.org/mSVG>.
For an indication of the status of the project over time, the AOO quarterly reports to the Board included in approved Board minutes are extracted and collected for historical convenience at <https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/openoffice/pmc/BoardReportsArchive>. The latest accepted quarterly report is maintained at <https://s.apache.org/iH9U>.
The next report (for the January-March quarter) will be submitted to the April 20, 2016, meeting of the ASF Board. It will be added to the history after subsequent approval of the minutes of that meeting. (The complete ASF Board Minutes that are the authoritative source of the extracts can be found via <http://www.apache.org/foundation/board/calendar.html>.)
- Dennis
> -----Original Message-----
> From: donaldupre . [mailto:donaldupre@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 00:11
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Next release and gbuild
>
> On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 8:46 PM, Pedro Giffuni <pf...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > Either someone steps in or we just have a team of people do things.
> >
>
> Holacracy is not a good idea.
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Re: AOO Governance (was RE: Next release and gbuild)
Posted by Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com>.
On 03/18/2016 08:04 AM, Marcus wrote:
> Am 03/18/2016 03:18 PM, schrieb Patricia Shanahan:
>> When I was working I gave up some of my freedom to do what
>> I wanted in
>> exchange for being paid to do what other people told me.
>>
>> I retired when I had accumulated enough investments that
>> the financial
>> improvement from the money Sun was paying me no longer
>> outweighed the
>> benefit of being able to decide for myself what to do with
>> my time. My
>> 10 a.m. horseback riding lesson this morning will be far
>> higher priority
>> than OpenOffice debug.
>>
>> I do not see being a "Release Manager" as carrying any
>> authority at all
>> over others. I might need to persuade, suggest, beg, and
>> plead, but I
>> would not expect to be able to compel, not even to the
>> limited extent I
>> could when I was a project leader in industry.
>
> exactly. There is no disciplinary power in the role of a
> release manager. It's more a role - instead of a job title -
> to make sure that a release will happen.
>
> You can a) do all things alone, b) do some tasks together
> with a team or c) nearly nothing except to pull the strings
> to make sure there will be a release at all. I think you
> would prefer point b).
>
>> If the term "Release Manager" is creating an idea of a job
>> something
>> like being a manager in industry, maybe we need a more
>> realistic term
>> such as "Keeper of the Release Checklist".
>
> BTW:
> There is already one [1] in case you don't know yet.
>
> [1]
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Release+Planning+Template
>
>
> Marcus
Yes, and it's a pretty good one at that! :)
>
>
>
>> On 3/18/2016 5:20 AM, donaldupre . wrote:
>>> In the same way management in your professional
>>> experience handled
>>> disagreement, disrespect, waste, inefficiency etc. that
>>> sometimes happen
>>> when people work together.
>>> You did offer to learn to be a release manager, it means
>>> that some
>>> sort of
>>> "management" is needed?
>>> How someone here suggested making a release without a
>>> manger is beyond
>>> me...
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 1:20 AM, Patricia Shanahan
>>> <pa...@acm.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I am really, really curious. How would you recommend the
>>>> hypothetical
>>>> AOO
>>>> management hierarchy go about compelling me to do anything?
>>>>
>>>> On 3/17/2016 10:41 AM, donaldupre . wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Not only it is possible to compel, it is imperative for
>>>>> a viable
>>>>> project.
>>>>> As Stalin once said, "When there's a person, there's a
>>>>> problem." :)
--
--------------------------------------------
MzK
"Time spent with cats is never wasted."
-- Sigmund Freud
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Re: AOO Governance (was RE: Next release and gbuild)
Posted by Marcus <ma...@wtnet.de>.
Am 03/18/2016 03:18 PM, schrieb Patricia Shanahan:
> When I was working I gave up some of my freedom to do what I wanted in
> exchange for being paid to do what other people told me.
>
> I retired when I had accumulated enough investments that the financial
> improvement from the money Sun was paying me no longer outweighed the
> benefit of being able to decide for myself what to do with my time. My
> 10 a.m. horseback riding lesson this morning will be far higher priority
> than OpenOffice debug.
>
> I do not see being a "Release Manager" as carrying any authority at all
> over others. I might need to persuade, suggest, beg, and plead, but I
> would not expect to be able to compel, not even to the limited extent I
> could when I was a project leader in industry.
exactly. There is no disciplinary power in the role of a release
manager. It's more a role - instead of a job title - to make sure that a
release will happen.
You can a) do all things alone, b) do some tasks together with a team or
c) nearly nothing except to pull the strings to make sure there will be
a release at all. I think you would prefer point b).
> If the term "Release Manager" is creating an idea of a job something
> like being a manager in industry, maybe we need a more realistic term
> such as "Keeper of the Release Checklist".
BTW:
There is already one [1] in case you don't know yet.
[1]
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Release+Planning+Template
Marcus
> On 3/18/2016 5:20 AM, donaldupre . wrote:
>> In the same way management in your professional experience handled
>> disagreement, disrespect, waste, inefficiency etc. that sometimes happen
>> when people work together.
>> You did offer to learn to be a release manager, it means that some
>> sort of
>> "management" is needed?
>> How someone here suggested making a release without a manger is beyond
>> me...
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 1:20 AM, Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I am really, really curious. How would you recommend the hypothetical
>>> AOO
>>> management hierarchy go about compelling me to do anything?
>>>
>>> On 3/17/2016 10:41 AM, donaldupre . wrote:
>>>
>>>> Not only it is possible to compel, it is imperative for a viable
>>>> project.
>>>> As Stalin once said, "When there's a person, there's a problem." :)
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Re: AOO Governance (was RE: Next release and gbuild)
Posted by "donaldupre ." <do...@gmail.com>.
On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 4:18 PM, Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org> wrote:
> When I was working I gave up some of my freedom to do what I wanted in
> exchange for being paid to do what other people told me.
>
> We all do...
> I retired when I had accumulated enough investments that the financial
> improvement from the money Sun was paying me no longer outweighed the
> benefit of being able to decide for myself what to do with my time. My
> 10 a.m. horseback riding lesson this morning will be far higher priority
> than OpenOffice debug.
>
> I do not see being a "Release Manager" as carrying any authority at all
> over others. I might need to persuade, suggest, beg, and plead, but I
> would not expect to be able to compel, not even to the limited extent I
> could when I was a project leader in industry.
>
> This is not the place for a philosophical debate, let's agree to disagree
:)
I hope a good release manager / keeper of the release checklist will be
found soon.
> If the term "Release Manager" is creating an idea of a job something
> like being a manager in industry, maybe we need a more realistic term
> such as "Keeper of the Release Checklist".
>
> Patricia
Re: AOO Governance (was RE: Next release and gbuild)
Posted by Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org>.
When I was working I gave up some of my freedom to do what I wanted in
exchange for being paid to do what other people told me.
I retired when I had accumulated enough investments that the financial
improvement from the money Sun was paying me no longer outweighed the
benefit of being able to decide for myself what to do with my time. My
10 a.m. horseback riding lesson this morning will be far higher priority
than OpenOffice debug.
I do not see being a "Release Manager" as carrying any authority at all
over others. I might need to persuade, suggest, beg, and plead, but I
would not expect to be able to compel, not even to the limited extent I
could when I was a project leader in industry.
If the term "Release Manager" is creating an idea of a job something
like being a manager in industry, maybe we need a more realistic term
such as "Keeper of the Release Checklist".
Patricia
On 3/18/2016 5:20 AM, donaldupre . wrote:
> In the same way management in your professional experience handled
> disagreement, disrespect, waste, inefficiency etc. that sometimes happen
> when people work together.
> You did offer to learn to be a release manager, it means that some sort of
> "management" is needed?
> How someone here suggested making a release without a manger is beyond me...
>
> On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 1:20 AM, Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org> wrote:
>
>> I am really, really curious. How would you recommend the hypothetical AOO
>> management hierarchy go about compelling me to do anything?
>>
>> On 3/17/2016 10:41 AM, donaldupre . wrote:
>>
>>> Not only it is possible to compel, it is imperative for a viable project.
>>> As Stalin once said, "When there's a person, there's a problem." :)
>>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>>
>>
>
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RE: AOO Governance (was RE: Next release and gbuild)
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
It seems we're having a nomenclature problem here. At the ASF "Release Manager" and "Release Management" are narrow, specific terms. AOO release management does not involve any abstraction that includes supervision of work and especially not supervision of workers.
This may be more helpful with regard to the narrow use of the term at the ASF:
<http://www.apache.org/dev/release-publishing.html>, along with
<http://apache.org/dev/release.html>.
Note that any committer (with a registered PGP signature) can pull together a release, although it is the PMC that is responsible for assuring its acceptability and approval. Acceptability is also in specific, narrow terms. See the rules for voting on releases and what those who vote approval are required to have done. Read from <http://apache.org/dev/release.html#approving-a-release> down to just before the Release Distribution topic.
One might advocate other ways projects operate. Such different approaches to governance and execution are unavailable to projects of the Apache Software Foundation. The ASF has no issue with how projects operate elsewhere. It just won't be at the ASF.
- Dennis
> -----Original Message-----
> From: donaldupre . [mailto:donaldupre@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, March 18, 2016 05:20
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: AOO Governance (was RE: Next release and gbuild)
>
> In the same way management in your professional experience handled
> disagreement, disrespect, waste, inefficiency etc. that sometimes happen
> when people work together.
> You did offer to learn to be a release manager, it means that some sort
> of
> "management" is needed?
> How someone here suggested making a release without a manger is beyond
> me...
>
> On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 1:20 AM, Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org> wrote:
>
> > I am really, really curious. How would you recommend the hypothetical
> AOO
> > management hierarchy go about compelling me to do anything?
> >
> > On 3/17/2016 10:41 AM, donaldupre . wrote:
> >
> >> Not only it is possible to compel, it is imperative for a viable
> project.
> >> As Stalin once said, "When there's a person, there's a problem." :)
> >>
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
> >
> >
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Re: AOO Governance (was RE: Next release and gbuild)
Posted by "donaldupre ." <do...@gmail.com>.
In the same way management in your professional experience handled
disagreement, disrespect, waste, inefficiency etc. that sometimes happen
when people work together.
You did offer to learn to be a release manager, it means that some sort of
"management" is needed?
How someone here suggested making a release without a manger is beyond me...
On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 1:20 AM, Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org> wrote:
> I am really, really curious. How would you recommend the hypothetical AOO
> management hierarchy go about compelling me to do anything?
>
> On 3/17/2016 10:41 AM, donaldupre . wrote:
>
>> Not only it is possible to compel, it is imperative for a viable project.
>> As Stalin once said, "When there's a person, there's a problem." :)
>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
>
Re: AOO Governance (was RE: Next release and gbuild)
Posted by Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org>.
I am really, really curious. How would you recommend the hypothetical
AOO management hierarchy go about compelling me to do anything?
On 3/17/2016 10:41 AM, donaldupre . wrote:
> Not only it is possible to compel, it is imperative for a viable project.
> As Stalin once said, "When there's a person, there's a problem." :)
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Re: AOO Governance (was RE: Next release and gbuild)
Posted by "donaldupre ." <do...@gmail.com>.
Not only it is possible to compel, it is imperative for a viable project.
As Stalin once said, "When there's a person, there's a problem." :)
Lack of management hierarchy just can't work in the long run.
The history of OpenOffice also shows its peak was when an organization with
a clear command structure developed it.
Lazy consensus is in fact the manner to operate because fluid is lazy...
Accomplishments depend not only on the capacity, capability, and
willingness of contributors, but mainly on the way they are being guided
and steered.
On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 6:02 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton <dennis.hamilton@acm.org
> wrote:
> Technically, we do not have a management hierarchy on Apache projects,
> although there are some rather limited governance roles. There can be
> self-organizing *informal* teams that are basically people working together
> for some common within-project purpose and those are fluid and definitely
> self-generated. There is no holacracy. It is important for onlookers to
> understand there is no executive and there is no *command* structure. It
> is not possible to compel anything.
>
> There is a form of status with regard to privileges, in that committers
> are trusted to review and approve the submissions of other contributors and
> can do more without oversight (while review is always possible). There is
> also a limited form of governance invested in members of the Project
> Management Committee (PMC) which have binding votes on release candidates
> and on procedural and personnel matters such as inviting contributors to
> become committers and to become members of the PMC. This is all striving
> toward sustainability of the project.
>
> Effort happens here *only* if someone steps in and operates in a
> consensus-seeking manner. What is accomplished depends on the capacity,
> capability, and willingness of such contributors. The sustainability of
> the project depends in part on how contributed effort leads to the
> cultivation and preparation of additional contributors so that capacity is
> continually renewed.
>
> Finally, there is a form of oversight, in that the project is accountable
> to the foundation for operating in accordance with the foundation bylaws
> and other principles and practices employed across Apache projects. The
> Chair of the PMC is ratified by the Board of the Foundation and is an
> Officer of the Foundation (i.e., Apache Software Foundation Vice President
> for Apache OpenOffice). The Chair is accountable to the Board while in all
> other respects being just another member of the PMC.
>
> For Apache OpenOffice, there is more about this form of operation at <
> https://s.apache.org/mSVG>.
>
> For an indication of the status of the project over time, the AOO
> quarterly reports to the Board included in approved Board minutes are
> extracted and collected for historical convenience at <
> https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/openoffice/pmc/BoardReportsArchive>.
> The latest accepted quarterly report is maintained at <
> https://s.apache.org/iH9U>.
>
> The next report (for the January-March quarter) will be submitted to the
> April 20, 2016, meeting of the ASF Board. It will be added to the history
> after subsequent approval of the minutes of that meeting. (The complete ASF
> Board Minutes that are the authoritative source of the extracts can be
> found via <http://www.apache.org/foundation/board/calendar.html>.)
>
> - Dennis
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: donaldupre . [mailto:donaldupre@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 00:11
> > To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: Next release and gbuild
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 8:46 PM, Pedro Giffuni <pf...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > > Either someone steps in or we just have a team of people do things.
> > >
> >
> > Holacracy is not a good idea.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
>