Project Etiquette

[Rafael Schloming <ra...@redhat.com>]

A number of recent threads have made it clear that we have a fair amount 
of unspoken etiquette about how we do things around here, and the fact 
that it is unspoken can be confusing to newcomers and old-timers alike.

Looking at a few other apache project web sites, they often seem to have 
a page or two devoted to documenting their project etiquette. I think 
this would be a good thing for us to have as well, and I've taken the 
liberty of trying to seed this effort with some content.

I think there are some obvious places where it would make sense to 
formalize some of this etiquette into some lightweight process, e.g. 
having maintainers files in svn, having a sandbox for new code 
contributions, etc, however this text is *not* intended to be a proposal 
for that sort of thing, merely an attempt to put into words what I 
believe most of us consider to be the status quo wrt the unspoken 
etiquette of the project.

Of course the problem with unspoken etiquette is that we might not all 
have the same concept of what it actually is, so please let me know if 
you disagree with something I've written or you think something 
important is missing.

--Rafael

Re: Project Etiquette

[Robert Godfrey <ro...@gmail.com>]

2009/12/10 Rafael Schloming <ra...@redhat.com>

>
> Marnie McCormack wrote:
>
>> Hi Rafi,
>>
>> Thanks for taking the time to write these. I think they're a good idea to
>> have for new people.
>>
>> At risk of incurring your wrath - I found it them a little long, at first
>> reading.
>>
>> I wonder if you'd consider a more concise version - be happy to have a
>> shot
>> at it if that'd be helpful and not cross making ?
>>
>
> Please feel free, I'm not actively working on anything right now. I'll try
> to keep my wrath in check until I see what you produce. ;)
>
>
>  I'd like to think we should welcome people in, tell them what they might
>> need to know but I'm hoping we won't scare them off.
>>
>> What do you think ?
>>
>
> I don't want to scare people too much. At the same time I don't want to
> have only a very dry list of process points that people can end up following
> to the letter with no real understanding of the spirit, and I think the most
> direct way to understand the spirit is to gain some real context in terms of
> the sorts of things that have and do actually happen.
>
> This may cause the length to grow a bit, but I don't think that's an issue.
> I would expect reading this material to be a tiny fraction of the overall
> time anyone who is serious is going to spend getting involved in qpid, and I
> think it is worthwhile time spent as it can give people a leg up.
>
>
I agree that while brevity is always desirable, we don't necessarily want
this to look like a list of rules.  I think that this needs to be cast as an
introduction to project etiquette rather than as prescriptive law.

That said the existing format does look rather overwhelming.  Maybe it can
be broken up, or using folding sections on a web page... or simply use less
words :-)  People are much more likely to read if it looks easily
digestible.

-- Rob


> Those of us who have been around for a while have a long and complex shared
> history that shapes how we interact as a group, and while on the one hand it
> may be daunting to ask people to read the entire thing before they get
> involved, at the same time it puts them at a significant disadvantage not to
> give them any of it.
>
> --Rafael
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Apache Qpid - AMQP Messaging Implementation
> Project:      http://qpid.apache.org
> Use/Interact: mailto:dev-subscribe@qpid.apache.org
>
>

Re: Project Etiquette

[Marnie McCormack <ma...@googlemail.com>]

Hi Rafi,

At long last I've taken a shot at this and put the results, with author
attribution for you obv, here:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/qpid/Qpid+Project+Etiquette+Guide

I think I've shaved off 20% and also reoriented slightly to make it read
more at submitters than committers, whilst hopefully still making sense in
the way you intended and keeping the humorous (at least, I think it was
meant to be funny!) tone.

I hope not to incur too much wrath.

Edit at will clearly.

Thanks for putting in the real work,
Marnie

Re: Project Etiquette

[Rafael Schloming <ra...@redhat.com>]

Marnie McCormack wrote:
> Hi Rafi,
> 
> Thanks for taking the time to write these. I think they're a good idea to
> have for new people.
> 
> At risk of incurring your wrath - I found it them a little long, at first
> reading.
> 
> I wonder if you'd consider a more concise version - be happy to have a shot
> at it if that'd be helpful and not cross making ?

Please feel free, I'm not actively working on anything right now. I'll 
try to keep my wrath in check until I see what you produce. ;)

> I'd like to think we should welcome people in, tell them what they might
> need to know but I'm hoping we won't scare them off.
> 
> What do you think ?

I don't want to scare people too much. At the same time I don't want to 
have only a very dry list of process points that people can end up 
following to the letter with no real understanding of the spirit, and I 
think the most direct way to understand the spirit is to gain some real 
context in terms of the sorts of things that have and do actually happen.

This may cause the length to grow a bit, but I don't think that's an 
issue. I would expect reading this material to be a tiny fraction of the 
overall time anyone who is serious is going to spend getting involved in 
qpid, and I think it is worthwhile time spent as it can give people a 
leg up.

Those of us who have been around for a while have a long and complex 
shared history that shapes how we interact as a group, and while on the 
one hand it may be daunting to ask people to read the entire thing 
before they get involved, at the same time it puts them at a significant 
disadvantage not to give them any of it.

--Rafael


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Apache Qpid - AMQP Messaging Implementation
Project:      http://qpid.apache.org
Use/Interact: mailto:dev-subscribe@qpid.apache.org

Re: Project Etiquette

[Marnie McCormack <ma...@googlemail.com>]

Hi Rafi,

Thanks for taking the time to write these. I think they're a good idea to
have for new people.

At risk of incurring your wrath - I found it them a little long, at first
reading.

I wonder if you'd consider a more concise version - be happy to have a shot
at it if that'd be helpful and not cross making ?

I'd like to think we should welcome people in, tell them what they might
need to know but I'm hoping we won't scare them off.

What do you think ?

Regards,
Marnie



On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 11:55 AM, Rafael Schloming <ra...@redhat.com>wrote:

> FWIW, the stuff I wrote was all intended for the benefit of new guys
> especially, even though I think it is equally good for us to have it written
> down for ourselves.
>
> I'm happy to add to it with some guidelines specifically for new
> contributors, I'm just less sure of what those are since it's been a while
> since I was a new contributor.
>
> If anyone has specific suggestions, please post and I'm happy to try to
> incorporate them somehow. As I mentioned, this wasn't intended to be a
> complete and definitive document, just a start that can evolve.
>
> --Rafael
>
>
> Sam Joyce wrote:
>
>> Hi Folks,
>> Personally I think Carl's idea is a good one, as I am new :) I was
>> involved with QPID and AMQP a few years ago and have only just come back to
>> the fold. I think having a "getting involved - etiquette" section is a good
>> idea. As has already been mentioned, there is a lot of latent awareness
>> about how to go about things, but as a new member of the community it would
>> certainly be of benefit to me to be able to read about it!
>>
>> cheers,
>> Sam.
>>
>> Carl Trieloff wrote:
>>
>>> Robert Godfrey wrote:
>>>
>>>> 2009/12/8 Rafael Schloming <ra...@redhat.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> A number of recent threads have made it clear that we have a fair
>>>>> amount of
>>>>> unspoken etiquette about how we do things around here, and the fact
>>>>> that it
>>>>> is unspoken can be confusing to newcomers and old-timers alike.
>>>>>
>>>>> Looking at a few other apache project web sites, they often seem to
>>>>> have a
>>>>> page or two devoted to documenting their project etiquette. I think
>>>>> this
>>>>> would be a good thing for us to have as well, and I've taken the
>>>>> liberty of
>>>>> trying to seed this effort with some content.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think there are some obvious places where it would make sense to
>>>>> formalize some of this etiquette into some lightweight process, e.g.
>>>>> having
>>>>> maintainers files in svn, having a sandbox for new code contributions,
>>>>> etc,
>>>>> however this text is *not* intended to be a proposal for that sort of
>>>>> thing,
>>>>> merely an attempt to put into words what I believe most of us consider
>>>>> to be
>>>>> the status quo wrt the unspoken etiquette of the project.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course the problem with unspoken etiquette is that we might not all
>>>>> have
>>>>> the same concept of what it actually is, so please let me know if you
>>>>> disagree with something I've written or you think something important
>>>>> is
>>>>> missing.
>>>>>
>>>>> --Rafael
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> All this sounds very sensible to me; and there's nothing I can
>>>> immediately
>>>> think of that I would like to add.
>>>>
>>>> Having this on a "Getting Involved" section of the website, along,
>>>> perhaps,
>>>> with a list of the "Big Ideas" people are currently working on would
>>>> seem to
>>>> make a lot of sense...
>>>>
>>>> -- Rob
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Should we also add a getting involved Etiquette section, i.e. if you are
>>> new, how should I work with the team...
>>>
>>> Carl.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Apache Qpid - AMQP Messaging Implementation
>> Project:      http://qpid.apache.org
>> Use/Interact: mailto:dev-subscribe@qpid.apache.org
>>
>>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Apache Qpid - AMQP Messaging Implementation
> Project:      http://qpid.apache.org
> Use/Interact: mailto:dev-subscribe@qpid.apache.org
>
>

Re: Project Etiquette

[Rafael Schloming <ra...@redhat.com>]

FWIW, the stuff I wrote was all intended for the benefit of new guys 
especially, even though I think it is equally good for us to have it 
written down for ourselves.

I'm happy to add to it with some guidelines specifically for new 
contributors, I'm just less sure of what those are since it's been a 
while since I was a new contributor.

If anyone has specific suggestions, please post and I'm happy to try to 
incorporate them somehow. As I mentioned, this wasn't intended to be a 
complete and definitive document, just a start that can evolve.

--Rafael

Sam Joyce wrote:
> Hi Folks,
> Personally I think Carl's idea is a good one, as I am new :) I was 
> involved with QPID and AMQP a few years ago and have only just come back 
> to the fold. I think having a "getting involved - etiquette" section is 
> a good idea. As has already been mentioned, there is a lot of latent 
> awareness about how to go about things, but as a new member of the 
> community it would certainly be of benefit to me to be able to read 
> about it!
> 
> cheers,
> Sam.
> 
> Carl Trieloff wrote:
>> Robert Godfrey wrote:
>>> 2009/12/8 Rafael Schloming <ra...@redhat.com>
>>>
>>>  
>>>> A number of recent threads have made it clear that we have a fair 
>>>> amount of
>>>> unspoken etiquette about how we do things around here, and the fact 
>>>> that it
>>>> is unspoken can be confusing to newcomers and old-timers alike.
>>>>
>>>> Looking at a few other apache project web sites, they often seem to 
>>>> have a
>>>> page or two devoted to documenting their project etiquette. I think 
>>>> this
>>>> would be a good thing for us to have as well, and I've taken the 
>>>> liberty of
>>>> trying to seed this effort with some content.
>>>>
>>>> I think there are some obvious places where it would make sense to
>>>> formalize some of this etiquette into some lightweight process, e.g. 
>>>> having
>>>> maintainers files in svn, having a sandbox for new code 
>>>> contributions, etc,
>>>> however this text is *not* intended to be a proposal for that sort 
>>>> of thing,
>>>> merely an attempt to put into words what I believe most of us 
>>>> consider to be
>>>> the status quo wrt the unspoken etiquette of the project.
>>>>
>>>> Of course the problem with unspoken etiquette is that we might not 
>>>> all have
>>>> the same concept of what it actually is, so please let me know if you
>>>> disagree with something I've written or you think something 
>>>> important is
>>>> missing.
>>>>
>>>> --Rafael
>>>>
>>>>     
>>>
>>> All this sounds very sensible to me; and there's nothing I can 
>>> immediately
>>> think of that I would like to add.
>>>
>>> Having this on a "Getting Involved" section of the website, along, 
>>> perhaps,
>>> with a list of the "Big Ideas" people are currently working on would 
>>> seem to
>>> make a lot of sense...
>>>
>>> -- Rob
>>>
>>>   
>>
>> Should we also add a getting involved Etiquette section, i.e. if you 
>> are new, how should I work with the team...
>>
>> Carl.
>>
>>
>>
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Apache Qpid - AMQP Messaging Implementation
> Project:      http://qpid.apache.org
> Use/Interact: mailto:dev-subscribe@qpid.apache.org
> 

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Apache Qpid - AMQP Messaging Implementation
Project:      http://qpid.apache.org
Use/Interact: mailto:dev-subscribe@qpid.apache.org

Re: Project Etiquette

[Sam Joyce <sj...@redhat.com>]

Hi Folks,
Personally I think Carl's idea is a good one, as I am new :) I was 
involved with QPID and AMQP a few years ago and have only just come back 
to the fold. I think having a "getting involved - etiquette" section is 
a good idea. As has already been mentioned, there is a lot of latent 
awareness about how to go about things, but as a new member of the 
community it would certainly be of benefit to me to be able to read 
about it!

cheers,
Sam.

Carl Trieloff wrote:
> Robert Godfrey wrote:
>> 2009/12/8 Rafael Schloming <ra...@redhat.com>
>>
>>  
>>> A number of recent threads have made it clear that we have a fair 
>>> amount of
>>> unspoken etiquette about how we do things around here, and the fact 
>>> that it
>>> is unspoken can be confusing to newcomers and old-timers alike.
>>>
>>> Looking at a few other apache project web sites, they often seem to 
>>> have a
>>> page or two devoted to documenting their project etiquette. I think 
>>> this
>>> would be a good thing for us to have as well, and I've taken the 
>>> liberty of
>>> trying to seed this effort with some content.
>>>
>>> I think there are some obvious places where it would make sense to
>>> formalize some of this etiquette into some lightweight process, e.g. 
>>> having
>>> maintainers files in svn, having a sandbox for new code 
>>> contributions, etc,
>>> however this text is *not* intended to be a proposal for that sort 
>>> of thing,
>>> merely an attempt to put into words what I believe most of us 
>>> consider to be
>>> the status quo wrt the unspoken etiquette of the project.
>>>
>>> Of course the problem with unspoken etiquette is that we might not 
>>> all have
>>> the same concept of what it actually is, so please let me know if you
>>> disagree with something I've written or you think something 
>>> important is
>>> missing.
>>>
>>> --Rafael
>>>
>>>     
>>
>> All this sounds very sensible to me; and there's nothing I can 
>> immediately
>> think of that I would like to add.
>>
>> Having this on a "Getting Involved" section of the website, along, 
>> perhaps,
>> with a list of the "Big Ideas" people are currently working on would 
>> seem to
>> make a lot of sense...
>>
>> -- Rob
>>
>>   
>
> Should we also add a getting involved Etiquette section, i.e. if you 
> are new, how should I work with the team...
>
> Carl.
>
>
>


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Apache Qpid - AMQP Messaging Implementation
Project:      http://qpid.apache.org
Use/Interact: mailto:dev-subscribe@qpid.apache.org

Re: Project Etiquette

[Carl Trieloff <cc...@redhat.com>]

Robert Godfrey wrote:
> 2009/12/8 Rafael Schloming <ra...@redhat.com>
>
>   
>> A number of recent threads have made it clear that we have a fair amount of
>> unspoken etiquette about how we do things around here, and the fact that it
>> is unspoken can be confusing to newcomers and old-timers alike.
>>
>> Looking at a few other apache project web sites, they often seem to have a
>> page or two devoted to documenting their project etiquette. I think this
>> would be a good thing for us to have as well, and I've taken the liberty of
>> trying to seed this effort with some content.
>>
>> I think there are some obvious places where it would make sense to
>> formalize some of this etiquette into some lightweight process, e.g. having
>> maintainers files in svn, having a sandbox for new code contributions, etc,
>> however this text is *not* intended to be a proposal for that sort of thing,
>> merely an attempt to put into words what I believe most of us consider to be
>> the status quo wrt the unspoken etiquette of the project.
>>
>> Of course the problem with unspoken etiquette is that we might not all have
>> the same concept of what it actually is, so please let me know if you
>> disagree with something I've written or you think something important is
>> missing.
>>
>> --Rafael
>>
>>     
>
> All this sounds very sensible to me; and there's nothing I can immediately
> think of that I would like to add.
>
> Having this on a "Getting Involved" section of the website, along, perhaps,
> with a list of the "Big Ideas" people are currently working on would seem to
> make a lot of sense...
>
> -- Rob
>
>   

Should we also add a getting involved Etiquette section, i.e. if you are 
new, how should I work with the team...

Carl.

Re: Project Etiquette

[Robert Godfrey <ro...@gmail.com>]

2009/12/8 Rafael Schloming <ra...@redhat.com>

> A number of recent threads have made it clear that we have a fair amount of
> unspoken etiquette about how we do things around here, and the fact that it
> is unspoken can be confusing to newcomers and old-timers alike.
>
> Looking at a few other apache project web sites, they often seem to have a
> page or two devoted to documenting their project etiquette. I think this
> would be a good thing for us to have as well, and I've taken the liberty of
> trying to seed this effort with some content.
>
> I think there are some obvious places where it would make sense to
> formalize some of this etiquette into some lightweight process, e.g. having
> maintainers files in svn, having a sandbox for new code contributions, etc,
> however this text is *not* intended to be a proposal for that sort of thing,
> merely an attempt to put into words what I believe most of us consider to be
> the status quo wrt the unspoken etiquette of the project.
>
> Of course the problem with unspoken etiquette is that we might not all have
> the same concept of what it actually is, so please let me know if you
> disagree with something I've written or you think something important is
> missing.
>
> --Rafael
>

All this sounds very sensible to me; and there's nothing I can immediately
think of that I would like to add.

Having this on a "Getting Involved" section of the website, along, perhaps,
with a list of the "Big Ideas" people are currently working on would seem to
make a lot of sense...

-- Rob