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Posted to dev@avalon.apache.org by Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org> on 2003/12/22 17:06:59 UTC
SVN and CVS
Below are some facts that we have recently learned about the difference between
SVN and CVS. This will influence how we should adopt, and when we should adopt.
1) The Apache Software Foundation will be encouraging all projects to switch
once SVN 1.0 is released (expected January/February of 2004). It will be
mandatory around Q3 of 2004.
2) SSL will be provided (but from what I could understand, not yet) for
encrypting all writes.
3) The major reason for the push is to make the Apache servers more secure
(fewer shell accounts will be required).
4) Tool support is here, and improving. There is TortoiseSVN, a plugin for
Eclipse and IDEA. These things will only improve with time.
Considering all the feedback here and on the PMC list, I have my list of
concerns which can hopefully be resolved soon.
1) No granularity in the accounts. This is fine for Avalon developers, but
we also include the Cocoon and JAMES development teams for the component
development.
2) SSL is not set up *yet* within Apache infrastructure (please let me know if
this is a misunderstanding).
Given the facts above and some of the concerns listed here and elsewhere, I am
starting to favor an all at once changeover to minimize confusion. Once the
account granularity issues and SSL infrastructure issues are resolved, I propose
we jump in with both feet.
The command line is very similar to CVS, and the plugins to interact with it are
not that different from the CVS variants. I hear nothing but good about SVN,
and it does help simplify administration activities, and the barrier of entry
seems to be lower than CVS. There are binary distributions available (i.e.
already compiled), although they could be placed more prominently.
--
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin
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Re: SVN and CVS
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>.
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> On Tuesday 23 December 2003 04:28, Berin Loritsch wrote:
>
>
>>We are already not the first. There are others who have already made the
>>plunge.
>
>
> I don't see why _we need_ to rush.
We aren't rushing. I tend to get all the facts early, and plan out a good
road ahead before acting. So at this point I am still in fact gathering
mode.
>>Umm, I had no issues with downloading. I suspect you may have experienced
>>a temporary internet effect problem.
>
>
> Nope. It was at the server side... I think the summersoft...us server is
> sitting on some tiny pipe, and too many people doing downloads.
Then I am sorry you had such a bad experience.
>>BTW, we would most likely be waiting until the setup issues are resolved
>>satisfactorily.
>
>
> We should look a little bit at the tool side. "PlugIn is available" is not
> necessarily, "Good PlugIn is available". I don't know if they fixed the
> Ctrl-C problem I came about, but that alone is "not good enough" for me for a
> tool so central to my work (albeit volunteer work in this case).
>
> IMHO, this discussion is not at all necessary until they announce 1.0-final,
> we don't know for sure if that is day-after-tomorrow or next Christmas.
We have a good indication that it will likely be between the end of January and
the end of February.
> Merry Christmas everyone, btw...
Merry Christmas to you too!
--
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin
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Re: SVN and CVS
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Tuesday 23 December 2003 04:28, Berin Loritsch wrote:
> We are already not the first. There are others who have already made the
> plunge.
I don't see why _we need_ to rush.
> >>I hear nothing but good about SVN.
> >
> > You didn't read about my "adventure"... ;o)
>
> That is the one exception in all the things I have heard. BTW, there is an
> installer for Windows that is already compiled and ready to go. I know
> there are RPMs available for UNIX as well. It just isn't painfully obvious
> where to download them from. I did manage to find the link though...
I found the RH RPM's alright, but 0.32, and told that don't even bother to
report a problem if it is not the latest, 0.35, which I had to build, and
didn't manage :o(
> Umm, I had no issues with downloading. I suspect you may have experienced
> a temporary internet effect problem.
Nope. It was at the server side... I think the summersoft...us server is
sitting on some tiny pipe, and too many people doing downloads.
> BTW, we would most likely be waiting until the setup issues are resolved
> satisfactorily.
We should look a little bit at the tool side. "PlugIn is available" is not
necessarily, "Good PlugIn is available". I don't know if they fixed the
Ctrl-C problem I came about, but that alone is "not good enough" for me for a
tool so central to my work (albeit volunteer work in this case).
IMHO, this discussion is not at all necessary until they announce 1.0-final,
we don't know for sure if that is day-after-tomorrow or next Christmas.
Merry Christmas everyone, btw...
Niclas
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Re: SVN and CVS
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>.
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> On Tuesday 23 December 2003 00:06, Berin Loritsch wrote:
>
>
>>1) No granularity in the accounts. This is fine for Avalon developers, but
>> we also include the Cocoon and JAMES development teams for the
>>component development.
>
>
> How come? Today we have 4 CVS modules, and wouldn't we just have 2 SVN repos,
> with different user bases?
That is one solution. I would want something more convenient--i.e. once someone
is set up for one repository they are set up for the other (if they are an
Avalon developer) --IOW set up only once.
>
>
>>2) SSL is not set up *yet* within Apache infrastructure (please let me know
>>if this is a misunderstanding).
>
>
> SSL? OpenSSH depends on OpenSSL, so SSL must already be present. CVS uses it,
> so...
So the infrastructure team hasn't (to my knowledge) set up the key for the
HTTPS server and the client certificates that would likely be used for the
checkin/out process. I know it is already technically feasible, but it does
take a little more resource management that is still under way.
>>Given the facts above and some of the concerns listed here and elsewhere, I
>>am starting to favor an all at once changeover to minimize confusion.
>
>
> Agree with "All or nothing"-approach.
> My suggestion is that we are "not first", and let any initial problems happen
> to others, who will document and share those aches (if any...hmmhmhm).
We are already not the first. There are others who have already made the
plunge.
>
>
>>I hear nothing but good about SVN.
>
>
> You didn't read about my "adventure"... ;o)
That is the one exception in all the things I have heard. BTW, there is an
installer for Windows that is already compiled and ready to go. I know there
are RPMs available for UNIX as well. It just isn't painfully obvious where
to download them from. I did manage to find the link though...
>>There are binary
>>distributions available (i.e. already compiled), although they could be
>>placed more prominently.
>
> Describe "available", please. Apparently the summersoft...us server that is
> hosting the RH binaries (others?) are not coping with the download. I say
> that it is made a "requirement" for transition, that the binaries are
> available from high-bandwidth servers (Does IE support "resume" if the
> connection is lost during download?).
Umm, I had no issues with downloading. I suspect you may have experienced a
temporary internet effect problem.
BTW, we would most likely be waiting until the setup issues are resolved
satisfactorily.
--
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin
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Re: SVN and CVS
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Tuesday 23 December 2003 00:06, Berin Loritsch wrote:
> 1) No granularity in the accounts. This is fine for Avalon developers, but
> we also include the Cocoon and JAMES development teams for the
> component development.
How come? Today we have 4 CVS modules, and wouldn't we just have 2 SVN repos,
with different user bases?
> 2) SSL is not set up *yet* within Apache infrastructure (please let me know
> if this is a misunderstanding).
SSL? OpenSSH depends on OpenSSL, so SSL must already be present. CVS uses it,
so...
> Given the facts above and some of the concerns listed here and elsewhere, I
> am starting to favor an all at once changeover to minimize confusion.
Agree with "All or nothing"-approach.
My suggestion is that we are "not first", and let any initial problems happen
to others, who will document and share those aches (if any...hmmhmhm).
> I hear nothing but good about SVN.
You didn't read about my "adventure"... ;o)
> There are binary
> distributions available (i.e. already compiled), although they could be
> placed more prominently.
Describe "available", please. Apparently the summersoft...us server that is
hosting the RH binaries (others?) are not coping with the download. I say
that it is made a "requirement" for transition, that the binaries are
available from high-bandwidth servers (Does IE support "resume" if the
connection is lost during download?).
Niclas
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Re: SVN and CVS
Posted by Geoff Howard <gh...@apache.org>.
Berin Loritsch wrote:
> Below are some facts that we have recently learned about the difference
> between
> SVN and CVS. This will influence how we should adopt, and when we
> should adopt.
>
> 1) The Apache Software Foundation will be encouraging all projects to
> switch
> once SVN 1.0 is released (expected January/February of 2004). It
> will be
> mandatory around Q3 of 2004.
>
> 2) SSL will be provided (but from what I could understand, not yet) for
> encrypting all writes.
>
> 3) The major reason for the push is to make the Apache servers more secure
> (fewer shell accounts will be required).
>
> 4) Tool support is here, and improving. There is TortoiseSVN, a plugin for
> Eclipse and IDEA. These things will only improve with time.
FYI the (apparently most active) eclipse plugin (subclipse) does not
currently support connections to ssl repositories in any binary windows
release. Building subclipse is non-trivial as it is version dependant
on svn, javahl (native bindings for java - svn subproject), berkley db
and eclipse and involves a good bit of jni and native code. I've not
yet managed to do it.
It may also be that ssl support is only present in the subclipse branch
targeting eclipse 3.x series but I may be misunderstanding the answers I
get and read on their lists.
Geoff
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