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Posted to dev@avalon.apache.org by Leo Simons <le...@apache.org> on 2003/11/25 16:19:05 UTC
[RT] The Principle Of Too Much Magic
available at:
http://lsd.student.utwente.nl/jicarilla/TooMuchMagic
An essay that cautions us to keep our habit to outsmart ourselves
in check.
please do tell me if I should stop advertising this stuff :D
- Leo
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Re: [RT] The Principle Of Too Much Magic
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Tuesday 25 November 2003 23:19, Leo Simons wrote:
> available at:
>
> http://lsd.student.utwente.nl/jicarilla/TooMuchMagic
>
> An essay that cautions us to keep our habit to outsmart ourselves
> in check.
>
> please do tell me if I should stop advertising this stuff :D
You are called "opinion maker", if it was politics.... That is fine with me.
The paper takes a few very strong punches at Avalon and especially Cocoon (
for instance, "...you are using a framework inside a framework inside a
framework" ).
But since I am a magician, I can do nothing but smile. You have a point - but
I want to keep my "God" status with my peers ;o).
Good magic comes with two sides. You only mention the bad side. The good side
being "not visible to user code".
And don't forget, a lot of software we are required to write is by nature
fairly complex.
You also touches on two different aspects of magic.
1. "Smart" use of standard features (Reflection, dynamic proxies for
instance).
2. Creation/usage of fancy tools (Bytecode engineering, Javadoc rape,
scripting languages for instance).
IMHO, those two should be treated with a tat of difference.
The second I fully agree with. The first one not so...
I also not fully agree that "programmers are smart".
I would say "some programmers are smart", but there are a lot that are just
average human beings. And I happen to think that the "smarter bunch" makes
life easier for the rest with a bit of magic.
After all, >90% of application code is very mundane, it is a matter of making
this code faster to right, no?
Good Article!
Niclas
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Re: [RT] The Principle Of Too Much Magic
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>.
Stephen McConnell wrote:
>
>
> Berin Loritsch wrote:
>
>>
>> You are using too much magic if...
>>
>> ... you feel that java.lang.Object is the best way to pass information.
>
>
>
> Ummm, don't know if I agree with that - sounds like an
> over-generalization. Its not java.lang.Object that one should be
> concerned about but instead the contract surrounding the usage.
> Steve.
>
Maybe it is, but when java.lang.Object is used instead of an already available
domain object that is easily accessible, then using java.lang.Object will
introduce maintenance issues.
Now, in a container/framework, its use is pretty much mandated.
--
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin
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Re: [RT] The Principle Of Too Much Magic
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
Berin Loritsch wrote:
>
> You are using too much magic if...
>
> ... you feel that java.lang.Object is the best way to pass information.
Ummm, don't know if I agree with that - sounds like an
over-generalization. Its not java.lang.Object that one should be
concerned about but instead the contract surrounding the usage.
Steve.
--
Stephen J. McConnell
mailto:mcconnell@apache.org
|------------------------------------------------|
| Magic by Merlin |
| Production by Avalon |
| |
| http://avalon.apache.org/merlin |
| http://dpml.net/ |
|------------------------------------------------|
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Re: [RT] The Principle Of Too Much Magic
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>.
Leo Simons wrote:
> available at:
>
> http://lsd.student.utwente.nl/jicarilla/TooMuchMagic
>
> An essay that cautions us to keep our habit to outsmart ourselves
> in check.
>
> please do tell me if I should stop advertising this stuff :D
>
> - Leo
A more serious post than my last one (generally speaking--couldn't resist):
I don't know how you would fit it in to the structure of your essay, but
the point I would like to make is that even though users expect a certain
level of magic for the application to do for them, the developer doesn't have
to use magic to implement it.
I suppose there are differing levels of magic.
I have a nightmare application at work here, and it appears that there was
an over-use of collections magic. IOW, we can separate an inseprable junction
between a screen and its document loading functions. If we have gone through
the trouble of creating domain objects, why should you pass all the values
in a Map that are part of that one object? Should you try to refactor, you can
only get to the point where the application compiles again--then you have to
run it to find all the ClassCastExceptions.
You are using too much magic if...
... you feel that java.lang.Object is the best way to pass information.
... you use collections to pass a bunch of information already available in one
object.
--
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin
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Re: [RT] The Principle Of Too Much Magic
Posted by Leo Simons <le...@apache.org>.
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> On Tuesday 25 November 2003 23:19, Leo Simons wrote:
>
>>http://lsd.student.utwente.nl/jicarilla/TooMuchMagic
>> An essay that cautions us to keep our habit to outsmart ourselves
>> in check.
>
> I also just remember your "other view", to use scripting for configuration.
> Are you not contradicting yourself???
yes!!!!
I've tried a few times to write some serious, balanced material which
sheds lights on both sides of the story, explains when the choice is
made in one direction, and when it is made in the other direction, and
why. It's friggin' difficult :D
Do note that most people have the habit of contradicting their own
beliefs, thoughts, decisions; not just the politicians like me...I just
don't try to hid it :P
- LSD
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Re: [RT] The Principle Of Too Much Magic
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Tuesday 25 November 2003 23:19, Leo Simons wrote:
> http://lsd.student.utwente.nl/jicarilla/TooMuchMagic
> An essay that cautions us to keep our habit to outsmart ourselves
> in check.
I also just remember your "other view", to use scripting for configuration.
Are you not contradicting yourself???
Niclas
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Re: [RT] The Principle Of Too Much Magic
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>.
Leo Simons wrote:
> available at:
>
> http://lsd.student.utwente.nl/jicarilla/TooMuchMagic
>
> An essay that cautions us to keep our habit to outsmart ourselves
> in check.
>
> please do tell me if I should stop advertising this stuff :D
>
> - Leo
I generally get the general point of your general essay. Of course generally
speaking, I am generally adding the word general in the same general spirit of
your general introduction....
;P
Well written, and as usual, sometimes we *need* a little bit of magic. Good
programming is finding the balance.
--
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin
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RE: [RT] The Principle Of Too Much Magic
Posted by Eric Pugh <ep...@upstate.com>.
I appreciate the articles... It makes me think of my self maybe a bit too
much. I do have faith in the "magic" do-all framework, and sometimes the
increase in complexity isn't worth it.
However, with all the various frameworks competing, hopefully over time the
ones with the best/simplest approach will win out...
Eric
> -----Original Message-----
> From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org]On Behalf Of Leo Simons
> Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 4:19 PM
> To: dev@avalon.apache.org
> Subject: [RT] The Principle Of Too Much Magic
>
>
> available at:
>
> http://lsd.student.utwente.nl/jicarilla/TooMuchMagic
>
> An essay that cautions us to keep our habit to outsmart ourselves
> in check.
>
> please do tell me if I should stop advertising this stuff :D
>
> - Leo
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@avalon.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@avalon.apache.org
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