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Posted to users@tapestry.apache.org by nilo de roock <nd...@gmail.com> on 2007/02/04 20:00:23 UTC
Starting with Tapestry
I am a bit confused as T5 is radically different from 4. A new app with the
Tapestry 'branding'.
Jumping on 4.1 means rewriting everything since 4.1 will be dead soon.
T5 is not ready yet, lacks docu and components.
Maybe pre-announcing 5 wasn't such a good thing after all?
- nilo
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Re: Starting with Tapestry
Posted by Kent Tong <ke...@cpttm.org.mo>.
nilo de roock <ndroock1 <at> gmail.com> writes:
> I don't know if the license permits, but I really hope Tapestry 4.1 will be
> forked. The ideas in 5 are really cool and could be used as a vision for
> developing 4.2 but in a slower pace perhaps and without breaking code. Yes
> it will be more difficult, so what?
The idea that T5 is coming too soon and existing code won't work in it
sounds like a valid concern. However, if you think more about it, you
may just hold off upgrading and wait until T5.1/T6 when you have
received enough return on your investment on T3/T4 or when you start
a new project? If there are enough people facing situations like you,
then there will be a critical mass to maintain T4.
The idea of creating a runtime compatibility layer sounds like an
excellent idea. However, if you think more about it, given a working
T4 applications, what do you gain by running it on this compatibility
layer in T5?
Instead, I think a better thing to do is to target those who
are upgrading an existing T4 app to T5.
1) Create a migration tool that can automatically convert the source
files to T5. It doesn't have to work 100% accurately, but should do
the bulk of repetitive work in some limited scopes.
2) Create a platform that allows T4 pages and T5 pages running
in the same app and create a bridge to allow them to communicate
or to share ASO.
--
Kent Tong
Author of a book for learning Tapestry (http://www.agileskills2.org/EWDT)
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Re: Starting with Tapestry
Posted by Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com>.
You eventually get numb to people sniping from the sidelines.
On 2/5/07, adasal <ad...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This is what amazed me about Open Source back in the days when I first
> looked at early JBoss.
>
> > This is open source, so we do it for free / love of programming / etc
>
> The fact is people from all over do 'love of programming' and contribute for
> free and some manage to combine it with making money, some even using the
> Open Source model in some way to do this. I think it is a pretty robust
> model. I don't agree with the flase comparison with what management would or
> wouldn't do. Actualy even the death of a project or version is fairly
> straightforward. When there is no more impetus. Em, actually what could be
> more purely market driven than that?
> Any way, great work team. I'm waiting for the chance to find time to
> download the latest from CVS.
> Adam
>
>
> On 05/02/07, Jesse Kuhnert <jk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I think though T5 wasn't my idea I did advocate for Howard being able
> > to work on it solely.
> >
> > Maybe it's confusing - maybe it's not. Hard to say. I like 4.1 and 5
> > for different reasons, but don't plan on seeing my 4.1 efforts
> > completely wasted. That would be annoying. ;) It'll continue on for as
> > long as makes sense.
> >
> > T5 represents the future of tapestry and I believe in it completely.
> > I've also already stated many times that I'll be providing ~one~
> > upgrade path runtime integration for T<X> -> T5. Which version gets
> > the magical upgrade has yet to be determined. (though I am willing to
> > take a pooled collection offering of $$ if anyone cares enough about
> > one particular version ;) )
> >
> > This is open source, so we do it for free / love of programming / etc.
> > I like 4.1 right now , Howard likes T5. No one owns anything though.
> > If you would like to step in and start taking the reigns on where
> > things go the door is always open for more developers.
> >
> > > > >
> > > > > nilo de roock írta:
> > > > >> I am a bit confused as T5 is radically different from 4. A new app
> > with
> > > > >> the
> > > > >> Tapestry 'branding'.
> > > > >> Jumping on 4.1 means rewriting everything since 4.1 will be dead
> > soon.
> > > > >> T5 is not ready yet, lacks docu and components.
> > > > >> Maybe pre-announcing 5 wasn't such a good thing after all?
> > > > >> - nilo
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > View this message in context:
> > > > http://www.nabble.com/Starting-with-Tapestry-tf3170900.html#a8796909
> > > > Sent from the Tapestry - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Jesse Kuhnert
> > Tapestry/Dojo team member/developer
> >
> > Open source based consulting work centered around
> > dojo/tapestry/tacos/hivemind. http://blog.opencomponentry.com
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
> >
> >
>
--
Howard M. Lewis Ship
TWD Consulting, Inc.
Independent J2EE / Open-Source Java Consultant
Creator and PMC Chair, Apache Tapestry
Creator, Apache HiveMind
Professional Tapestry training, mentoring, support
and project work. http://howardlewisship.com
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Re: Starting with Tapestry
Posted by adasal <ad...@gmail.com>.
This is what amazed me about Open Source back in the days when I first
looked at early JBoss.
> This is open source, so we do it for free / love of programming / etc
The fact is people from all over do 'love of programming' and contribute for
free and some manage to combine it with making money, some even using the
Open Source model in some way to do this. I think it is a pretty robust
model. I don't agree with the flase comparison with what management would or
wouldn't do. Actualy even the death of a project or version is fairly
straightforward. When there is no more impetus. Em, actually what could be
more purely market driven than that?
Any way, great work team. I'm waiting for the chance to find time to
download the latest from CVS.
Adam
On 05/02/07, Jesse Kuhnert <jk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I think though T5 wasn't my idea I did advocate for Howard being able
> to work on it solely.
>
> Maybe it's confusing - maybe it's not. Hard to say. I like 4.1 and 5
> for different reasons, but don't plan on seeing my 4.1 efforts
> completely wasted. That would be annoying. ;) It'll continue on for as
> long as makes sense.
>
> T5 represents the future of tapestry and I believe in it completely.
> I've also already stated many times that I'll be providing ~one~
> upgrade path runtime integration for T<X> -> T5. Which version gets
> the magical upgrade has yet to be determined. (though I am willing to
> take a pooled collection offering of $$ if anyone cares enough about
> one particular version ;) )
>
> This is open source, so we do it for free / love of programming / etc.
> I like 4.1 right now , Howard likes T5. No one owns anything though.
> If you would like to step in and start taking the reigns on where
> things go the door is always open for more developers.
>
> > > >
> > > > nilo de roock írta:
> > > >> I am a bit confused as T5 is radically different from 4. A new app
> with
> > > >> the
> > > >> Tapestry 'branding'.
> > > >> Jumping on 4.1 means rewriting everything since 4.1 will be dead
> soon.
> > > >> T5 is not ready yet, lacks docu and components.
> > > >> Maybe pre-announcing 5 wasn't such a good thing after all?
> > > >> - nilo
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > View this message in context:
> > > http://www.nabble.com/Starting-with-Tapestry-tf3170900.html#a8796909
> > > Sent from the Tapestry - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
> --
> Jesse Kuhnert
> Tapestry/Dojo team member/developer
>
> Open source based consulting work centered around
> dojo/tapestry/tacos/hivemind. http://blog.opencomponentry.com
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>
Re: Starting with Tapestry
Posted by Norbert Sándor <de...@erinors.com>.
I think that "simple" users are awaiting such a positive answer instead
of "trolling, etc."
Jesse Kuhnert írta:
> I think though T5 wasn't my idea I did advocate for Howard being able
> to work on it solely.
>
> Maybe it's confusing - maybe it's not. Hard to say. I like 4.1 and 5
> for different reasons, but don't plan on seeing my 4.1 efforts
> completely wasted. That would be annoying. ;) It'll continue on for as
> long as makes sense.
>
> T5 represents the future of tapestry and I believe in it completely.
> I've also already stated many times that I'll be providing ~one~
> upgrade path runtime integration for T<X> -> T5. Which version gets
> the magical upgrade has yet to be determined. (though I am willing to
> take a pooled collection offering of $$ if anyone cares enough about
> one particular version ;) )
>
> This is open source, so we do it for free / love of programming / etc.
> I like 4.1 right now , Howard likes T5. No one owns anything though.
> If you would like to step in and start taking the reigns on where
> things go the door is always open for more developers.
>
>> > >
>> > > nilo de roock írta:
>> > >> I am a bit confused as T5 is radically different from 4. A new
>> app with
>> > >> the
>> > >> Tapestry 'branding'.
>> > >> Jumping on 4.1 means rewriting everything since 4.1 will be dead
>> soon.
>> > >> T5 is not ready yet, lacks docu and components.
>> > >> Maybe pre-announcing 5 wasn't such a good thing after all?
>> > >> - nilo
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > >
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
>> > > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> > --
>> > View this message in context:
>> > http://www.nabble.com/Starting-with-Tapestry-tf3170900.html#a8796909
>> > Sent from the Tapestry - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> >
>> >
>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
>> > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
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Re: Starting with Tapestry
Posted by Jesse Kuhnert <jk...@gmail.com>.
I think though T5 wasn't my idea I did advocate for Howard being able
to work on it solely.
Maybe it's confusing - maybe it's not. Hard to say. I like 4.1 and 5
for different reasons, but don't plan on seeing my 4.1 efforts
completely wasted. That would be annoying. ;) It'll continue on for as
long as makes sense.
T5 represents the future of tapestry and I believe in it completely.
I've also already stated many times that I'll be providing ~one~
upgrade path runtime integration for T<X> -> T5. Which version gets
the magical upgrade has yet to be determined. (though I am willing to
take a pooled collection offering of $$ if anyone cares enough about
one particular version ;) )
This is open source, so we do it for free / love of programming / etc.
I like 4.1 right now , Howard likes T5. No one owns anything though.
If you would like to step in and start taking the reigns on where
things go the door is always open for more developers.
> > >
> > > nilo de roock írta:
> > >> I am a bit confused as T5 is radically different from 4. A new app with
> > >> the
> > >> Tapestry 'branding'.
> > >> Jumping on 4.1 means rewriting everything since 4.1 will be dead soon.
> > >> T5 is not ready yet, lacks docu and components.
> > >> Maybe pre-announcing 5 wasn't such a good thing after all?
> > >> - nilo
> > >>
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > View this message in context:
> > http://www.nabble.com/Starting-with-Tapestry-tf3170900.html#a8796909
> > Sent from the Tapestry - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
> >
> >
>
--
Jesse Kuhnert
Tapestry/Dojo team member/developer
Open source based consulting work centered around
dojo/tapestry/tacos/hivemind. http://blog.opencomponentry.com
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Re: Starting with Tapestry
Posted by Kalle Korhonen <ka...@gmail.com>.
I think you are just trolling, but I'll reply anyways. You miss the whole
point of open source and the community behind it; it's not for you to just
sit and wait for somebody to do the work for you for free, but for you to
develop and maintain the framework further with others. Tapestry 4.1 will
not be dead till there's nobody left to pick up that work and continue.
Tapestry 5 may be radically different; some of those ideas may be
incorporated to future version of of Tap 4.x if you are willing to work on
it. A case in point is how the ognl performance improvements came to be from
the ideas in tapestry-prop and Tap5 (double hooray to Jesse for it - eagerly
awaiting :). Some other ideas then might be best left for a different
framework, free of the historical burden and easier to implement without
having to resolve additional complexity with backwards compatibility.
Kalle
On 2/4/07, nilo de roock <nd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I would like to add something.
>
> It's just not fair to call T5 'Tapestry 5', it is a -completely- new app!
> If
> Tapestry was a commercial entity clients would not accept this and the
> entire plan would be revoked and management sacked. The truth is that
> Tapestry has been pronounced dead, abandoned, end-of-life'ed. The rest is
> marketing. Selling a different product with an old succes name. It's
> called
> 'branding'. So what's so good about open source here??
>
> I don't know if the license permits, but I really hope Tapestry 4.1 will
> be
> forked. The ideas in 5 are really cool and could be used as a vision for
> developing 4.2 but in a slower pace perhaps and without breaking code. Yes
> it will be more difficult, so what?
>
> What is even worse, this whole exercise could jeopardize the entire open
> source world. Imagine the case stories of corporations who trusted open
> source and are now left with dead code because no one can or wants to
> maintain it. I am sure some people will be very good at finding these
> 'cases'.
>
> It's terrible.
> - nilo
>
>
>
> Norbert Sándor wrote:
> >
> > I agree with you.
> >
> > I have no voice in the development of Tapestry (I know it's open source,
> > etc.) but if you're interested in my opinion I think it wasn't the best
> > idea to assign so much resource to the development of T5 before T4 is
> > finished. Active T5 development was started too early, now there are two
> > "unfinished" versions (I know that 4.1 is stable, etc. but it isn't
> > final yet).
> > Besides I'm afraid that you are right with "4.1 will be dead soon", it
> > seems that there will be no upgrade path from 4 to 5, these two versions
> > seem to be fully incompatible, they are completely different webapp
> > frameworks.
> >
> > Please don't misunderstand my words: I'm happy that T5 is under so heavy
> > development, and the developers made a wonderful job with T4.1. But I'm
> > afraid that T4 will be left alone soon...
> >
> > Regards:
> > Norbi
> >
> > nilo de roock írta:
> >> I am a bit confused as T5 is radically different from 4. A new app with
> >> the
> >> Tapestry 'branding'.
> >> Jumping on 4.1 means rewriting everything since 4.1 will be dead soon.
> >> T5 is not ready yet, lacks docu and components.
> >> Maybe pre-announcing 5 wasn't such a good thing after all?
> >> - nilo
> >>
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/Starting-with-Tapestry-tf3170900.html#a8796909
> Sent from the Tapestry - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>
Re: Starting with Tapestry
Posted by nilo de roock <nd...@gmail.com>.
I would like to add something.
It's just not fair to call T5 'Tapestry 5', it is a -completely- new app! If
Tapestry was a commercial entity clients would not accept this and the
entire plan would be revoked and management sacked. The truth is that
Tapestry has been pronounced dead, abandoned, end-of-life'ed. The rest is
marketing. Selling a different product with an old succes name. It's called
'branding'. So what's so good about open source here??
I don't know if the license permits, but I really hope Tapestry 4.1 will be
forked. The ideas in 5 are really cool and could be used as a vision for
developing 4.2 but in a slower pace perhaps and without breaking code. Yes
it will be more difficult, so what?
What is even worse, this whole exercise could jeopardize the entire open
source world. Imagine the case stories of corporations who trusted open
source and are now left with dead code because no one can or wants to
maintain it. I am sure some people will be very good at finding these
'cases'.
It's terrible.
- nilo
Norbert Sándor wrote:
>
> I agree with you.
>
> I have no voice in the development of Tapestry (I know it's open source,
> etc.) but if you're interested in my opinion I think it wasn't the best
> idea to assign so much resource to the development of T5 before T4 is
> finished. Active T5 development was started too early, now there are two
> "unfinished" versions (I know that 4.1 is stable, etc. but it isn't
> final yet).
> Besides I'm afraid that you are right with "4.1 will be dead soon", it
> seems that there will be no upgrade path from 4 to 5, these two versions
> seem to be fully incompatible, they are completely different webapp
> frameworks.
>
> Please don't misunderstand my words: I'm happy that T5 is under so heavy
> development, and the developers made a wonderful job with T4.1. But I'm
> afraid that T4 will be left alone soon...
>
> Regards:
> Norbi
>
> nilo de roock írta:
>> I am a bit confused as T5 is radically different from 4. A new app with
>> the
>> Tapestry 'branding'.
>> Jumping on 4.1 means rewriting everything since 4.1 will be dead soon.
>> T5 is not ready yet, lacks docu and components.
>> Maybe pre-announcing 5 wasn't such a good thing after all?
>> - nilo
>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>
>
--
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Re: Starting with Tapestry
Posted by Norbert Sándor <de...@erinors.com>.
I agree with you.
I have no voice in the development of Tapestry (I know it's open source,
etc.) but if you're interested in my opinion I think it wasn't the best
idea to assign so much resource to the development of T5 before T4 is
finished. Active T5 development was started too early, now there are two
"unfinished" versions (I know that 4.1 is stable, etc. but it isn't
final yet).
Besides I'm afraid that you are right with "4.1 will be dead soon", it
seems that there will be no upgrade path from 4 to 5, these two versions
seem to be fully incompatible, they are completely different webapp
frameworks.
Please don't misunderstand my words: I'm happy that T5 is under so heavy
development, and the developers made a wonderful job with T4.1. But I'm
afraid that T4 will be left alone soon...
Regards:
Norbi
nilo de roock írta:
> I am a bit confused as T5 is radically different from 4. A new app with the
> Tapestry 'branding'.
> Jumping on 4.1 means rewriting everything since 4.1 will be dead soon.
> T5 is not ready yet, lacks docu and components.
> Maybe pre-announcing 5 wasn't such a good thing after all?
> - nilo
>
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Re: Starting with Tapestry
Posted by mu...@fantasymail.de.
sorry..wrong button (earlier message)
-------- Original-Nachricht --------
Datum: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 11:12:51 -0500
Von: "Daniel Jue" <te...@gmail.com>
An: "Tapestry users" <us...@tapestry.apache.org>
CC:
Betreff: Re: Starting with Tapestry
> Francis?
>
> On 2/4/07, nilo de roock <nd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I am a bit confused as T5 is radically different from 4. A new app with
> the
> > Tapestry 'branding'.
> > Jumping on 4.1 means rewriting everything since 4.1 will be dead soon.
> > T5 is not ready yet, lacks docu and components.
> > Maybe pre-announcing 5 wasn't such a good thing after all?
> > - nilo
> > --
> > View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/Starting-with-Tapestry-tf3170900.html#a8795954
> > Sent from the Tapestry - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
> >
> >
>
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Re: Starting with Tapestry
Posted by Daniel Jue <te...@gmail.com>.
Francis?
On 2/4/07, nilo de roock <nd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I am a bit confused as T5 is radically different from 4. A new app with the
> Tapestry 'branding'.
> Jumping on 4.1 means rewriting everything since 4.1 will be dead soon.
> T5 is not ready yet, lacks docu and components.
> Maybe pre-announcing 5 wasn't such a good thing after all?
> - nilo
> --
> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Starting-with-Tapestry-tf3170900.html#a8795954
> Sent from the Tapestry - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>
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