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Posted to dev@cocoon.apache.org by Matthew Langham <ml...@s-und-n.de> on 2002/06/03 12:06:49 UTC
xml.apache.org/cocoon
Great to see the Website updated! Thanks Diana for your hard work! Can I
request that we add a couple of additional categories? I had a few emails
with Sylvain on this and we came up with:
>>
External resources
Cocoon consultants (Struts has this)
+ Links to companies or people providing Cocoon support etc.
Success stories
+ Links to success stories
External Sites
Cocoon based solutions
+ Links to companies or people providing Cocoon based solutions
<<
Did I forget anything Sylvain?
Matthew
--
Open Source Group Cocoon { Consulting, Training, Projects }
=================================================================
Matthew Langham, S&N AG, Klingenderstrasse 5, D-33100 Paderborn
Tel:+49-5251-1581-30 mlangham@s-und-n.de - http://www.s-und-n.de
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Cocoon book:
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-----Original Message-----
From: Stefano Mazzocchi [mailto:stefano@apache.org]
Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 11:24 AM
To: cocoon-dev@xml.apache.org
Subject: Re: [report] xml-site update
Vadim Gritsenko wrote:
> > Ahhh... So it appears that you have account privileges on
> > xml.apache.org.
>
> Every committer has. Otherwise, you won't be able to commit your changes
> (AFAIU this system).
Nop. CVS and HTTPD reside on different machines with different account
priviledges.
Diana, I'll have root@apache.org give you account priviledges on
http://xml.apache.org so that you can update the site yourself directly.
Deal?
--
Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: xml.apache.org/cocoon
Posted by Sylvain Wallez <sy...@anyware-tech.com>.
Sylvain Wallez wrote:
> Matthew Langham wrote:
>
>> Great to see the Website updated! Thanks Diana for your hard work! Can I
>> request that we add a couple of additional categories? I had a few
>> emails
>> with Sylvain on this and we came up with:
>>
>>
>>
>> External resources
>> Cocoon consultants (Struts has this)
>> + Links to companies or people providing Cocoon support etc.
>>
>> Success stories
>> + Links to success stories
>>
>> External Sites
>> Cocoon based solutions
>> + Links to companies or people providing Cocoon based solutions
>>
>> <<
>>
>> Did I forget anything Sylvain?
>>
>
> Sorry for the delay, I was off-list since monday.
>
> The list looks ok, and I'd like to detail a bit more the reasons for
> success stories and their content.
Afer reading the post about Ipedo, what about a "Cocoon competitors"
page listing open-source and commercial products that (try to) have a
similar approach ?
This would show that Cocoon is not the only one in its category, but is
clearly the best ;) And once again this is important to attract users.
Sylvain
--
Sylvain Wallez
Anyware Technologies Apache Cocoon
http://www.anyware-tech.com mailto:sylvain@apache.org
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Re: xml.apache.org/cocoon
Posted by Sylvain Wallez <sy...@anyware-tech.com>.
Matthew Langham wrote:
>Great to see the Website updated! Thanks Diana for your hard work! Can I
>request that we add a couple of additional categories? I had a few emails
>with Sylvain on this and we came up with:
>
>
>
>External resources
> Cocoon consultants (Struts has this)
> + Links to companies or people providing Cocoon support etc.
>
> Success stories
> + Links to success stories
>
>External Sites
> Cocoon based solutions
> + Links to companies or people providing Cocoon based solutions
>
><<
>
>Did I forget anything Sylvain?
>
Sorry for the delay, I was off-list since monday.
The list looks ok, and I'd like to detail a bit more the reasons for
success stories and their content.
The current Cocoon site is mainly targeted towards *users* of Cocoon,
i.e. people that already made the choice to use Cocoon. We need is
something to attract new users, and the way for this is to show people
*what* they can do with Cocoon before showing them *how* they can do it.
So success stories should start by functional description (the "what"),
followed by a technical description (the "how" : architecture,
components used, etc).
Success stories will also be the place to show all these Cocoon-based
intranet applications that aren't publicly visible on the Internet (all
the projects we made here since 2 years are for intranets).
Finally, showing the wide usage range of Cocoon will allow more people
to consider it as a usable and mature product instead of "just" a nice
innovative technology. This is especially important in large companies
that prefer maturity to technological risk.
Sylvain
--
Sylvain Wallez
Anyware Technologies Apache Cocoon
http://www.anyware-tech.com mailto:sylvain@apache.org
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Re: Links to commercial entities
Posted by Andy Lewis <aj...@ascii27.net>.
I'm not a committer here - but I think this is a excellent way to handle
it...
> Matthew Langham wrote:
>
>> I discussed this with Sylvain and we both were not sure of the Apache
>> side of things. Perhaps someone can comment on what is "allowed" in
>> the sense of "tolerated". Thanks.
>
> Ok, a few comments from an ASF member.
>
> NOTE: this is *not* official. Only the ASF board can state something
> officially about the ASF, but this is as official as I can get.
>
> First, Apache pays back with visibility, recognition, respect, credits
> and all the non-conservative resources that we can. Paying back with
> non-conservative resources (those that the sum is not constrained,
> unlike money) allows to remove friction from the communities that would
> otherwise develop.
>
> So, rule #1: as long as giving a resource to somebody doesn't remove
> anything from somebody else, no friction will develop and we are all
> set.
>
> Second, Apache is a realist entity. There is no such thing as 'absolute
> freedom' (as some 'free software' persons advocate). In reality, you
> can't eat 'non-conservative resources', well, until we don't have
> startrek-like 'matter compilers', so there is an impedence mistmatch
> that must somehow be solved.
>
> We solved it by allowing people to 'use' their visibility (a
> non-conservative resource) to obtain conservative resources (mostly
> money, but also benefits, such as this very laptop that was kindly
> donated to me some time ago).
>
> Sure, there is the chance of 'abusing' this visibility. This the reason
> why the Apache License prevents you from "stealing" due credits (and
> avoid things like GNU/Linux debates) by abusing the name (you won't see
> a 'RedHat Apache', that's for sure).
>
> Still, there is no problem in letting people who deserve it to be
> listed someplace in the site.
>
> - o -
>
> Now, this said: I personally don't have any problem in having a page
> that lists companies that provide commercial services for Cocoon, as
> long as they deserve it. Unfortunately, there is no such thing as an
> ASF policy for those things and we are allowed to create our own.
>
> So, I would like to propose that a commercial entity that want to be
> listed on those pages *MUST* have submitted at least a patch in the CVS
> at some point and *MUST* be voted in by the committers.
>
> This should remove abuses and keep things sane.
>
> What do you think?
>
> --
> Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
> able to give birth to a dancing star.
> <st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
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"The heights of genius are only measurable by the depths of stupiditiy."
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Re: Links to commercial entities
Posted by Sylvain Wallez <sy...@anyware-tech.com>.
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>Matthew Langham wrote:
>
>
>
>>I discussed this with Sylvain and we both were not sure of the Apache side
>>of things. Perhaps someone can comment on what is "allowed" in the sense of
>>"tolerated". Thanks.
>>
>>
<snip/>
>Now, this said: I personally don't have any problem in having a page
>that lists companies that provide commercial services for Cocoon, as
>long as they deserve it. Unfortunately, there is no such thing as an ASF
>policy for those things and we are allowed to create our own.
>
>So, I would like to propose that a commercial entity that want to be
>listed on those pages *MUST* have submitted at least a patch in the CVS
>at some point and *MUST* be voted in by the committers.
>
>This should remove abuses and keep things sane.
>
>What do you think?
>
>
>
These are simple but wise rules, as they will reward active members of
the community.
Sylvain
--
Sylvain Wallez
Anyware Technologies Apache Cocoon
http://www.anyware-tech.com mailto:sylvain@apache.org
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RE: Links to commercial entities
Posted by Carsten Ziegeler <cz...@s-und-n.de>.
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> <snip>
>
> Now, this said: I personally don't have any problem in having a page
> that lists companies that provide commercial services for Cocoon, as
> long as they deserve it.
I agree here totally, but I see problems in finding out who deserves
it and who not. (There are some companies out there claiming themselfs
to be Cocoon experts which have *NEVER* contributed anything to Cocoon.
And I think they really do not deserve it to be listed!)
> Unfortunately, there is no such thing as an ASF
> policy for those things and we are allowed to create our own.
>
> So, I would like to propose that a commercial entity that want to be
> listed on those pages *MUST* have submitted at least a patch in the CVS
> at some point and *MUST* be voted in by the committers.
>
A patch is one criteria, but perhaps there are more: what about people
answering many questions in the mailing lists but never submitting a
patch etc. This will be very difficult to decide, but we could try it :)
BUT: I don't want to vote on it for two reasons: (ok, I know, if I don't
want to vote I don't have to). First: the community is not
really interested in these votes. So there won't be many votes for a
new entry, I fear. What do we do if only one says: +1 and all the
others remain silent?
But the other thing is that we might get into a competition between two
commercial entities. What if one entity is listed and perhaps
represented by a committer and a competitor wants to be listed, too?
This might create some difficulties, but perhaps I'm too panicing (does
this work exists?) here. I personally have no problems with this, but
others might have (and perhaps the boss of that committer).
> This should remove abuses and keep things sane.
>
> What do you think?
>
As always: we should/could give it a try and see what happens.
Carsten
Carsten Ziegeler Chief Architect Open Source Group, S&N AG
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Re: Links to commercial entities
Posted by Jeremy Quinn <sh...@mac.com>.
On Tuesday, June 4, 2002, at 10:11 AM, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> Matthew Langham wrote:
>
>> I discussed this with Sylvain and we both were not sure of the
>> Apache side
>> of things. Perhaps someone can comment on what is "allowed" in
>> the sense of
>> "tolerated". Thanks.
>
> So, I would like to propose that a commercial entity that want to be
> listed on those pages *MUST* have submitted at least a patch in the CVS
> at some point and *MUST* be voted in by the committers.
>
> This should remove abuses and keep things sane.
>
> What do you think?
>
Sounds extremely sane to me.
+1
I'll add myself ;)
regards Jeremy
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Links to commercial entities
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Matthew Langham wrote:
> I discussed this with Sylvain and we both were not sure of the Apache side
> of things. Perhaps someone can comment on what is "allowed" in the sense of
> "tolerated". Thanks.
Ok, a few comments from an ASF member.
NOTE: this is *not* official. Only the ASF board can state something
officially about the ASF, but this is as official as I can get.
First, Apache pays back with visibility, recognition, respect, credits
and all the non-conservative resources that we can. Paying back with
non-conservative resources (those that the sum is not constrained,
unlike money) allows to remove friction from the communities that would
otherwise develop.
So, rule #1: as long as giving a resource to somebody doesn't remove
anything from somebody else, no friction will develop and we are all
set.
Second, Apache is a realist entity. There is no such thing as 'absolute
freedom' (as some 'free software' persons advocate). In reality, you
can't eat 'non-conservative resources', well, until we don't have
startrek-like 'matter compilers', so there is an impedence mistmatch
that must somehow be solved.
We solved it by allowing people to 'use' their visibility (a
non-conservative resource) to obtain conservative resources (mostly
money, but also benefits, such as this very laptop that was kindly
donated to me some time ago).
Sure, there is the chance of 'abusing' this visibility. This the reason
why the Apache License prevents you from "stealing" due credits (and
avoid things like GNU/Linux debates) by abusing the name (you won't see
a 'RedHat Apache', that's for sure).
Still, there is no problem in letting people who deserve it to be listed
someplace in the site.
- o -
Now, this said: I personally don't have any problem in having a page
that lists companies that provide commercial services for Cocoon, as
long as they deserve it. Unfortunately, there is no such thing as an ASF
policy for those things and we are allowed to create our own.
So, I would like to propose that a commercial entity that want to be
listed on those pages *MUST* have submitted at least a patch in the CVS
at some point and *MUST* be voted in by the committers.
This should remove abuses and keep things sane.
What do you think?
--
Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
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RE: xml.apache.org/cocoon
Posted by Matthew Langham <ml...@s-und-n.de>.
>>
> This should be the same for "Solutions" also.
Can one sentence sufficiently describe all such solutions?
<<
Probably not - but that is what the link is for. I think any company
offering Cocoon based solutions will have their own site set up for that
sort of thing - and it's only a click away.
I discussed this with Sylvain and we both were not sure of the Apache side
of things. Perhaps someone can comment on what is "allowed" in the sense of
"tolerated". Thanks.
Matthew
-----Original Message-----
From: Diana Shannon [mailto:shannon@apache.org]
Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 3:08 PM
To: cocoon-dev@xml.apache.org
Subject: Re: xml.apache.org/cocoon
On Monday, June 3, 2002, at 08:52 AM, Matthew Langham wrote:
> We need to make sure that these links are not misused as advertisement -
> correct? I checked the Struts page and they seem to use links only.
> Although
> this is probably the "safest" - my suggestion would be to have a link
> and a
> one sentence description.
I think such descriptions are user-friendly. Why download a whole page
to determine relevancy? We can always edit a submission if someone takes
undue advantage.
> Is this allowed?
*I* have no problem with it.
> Example for consulting:
>
>>>
> <link>S & N AG </link>
> The open source group at S&N AG, Paderborn, Germany, offers consulting
> services and support for Cocoon.
> <<
>
> This should be the same for "Solutions" also.
Can one sentence sufficiently describe all such solutions?
Diana
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Re: xml.apache.org/cocoon
Posted by Diana Shannon <sh...@apache.org>.
On Monday, June 3, 2002, at 08:52 AM, Matthew Langham wrote:
> We need to make sure that these links are not misused as advertisement -
> correct? I checked the Struts page and they seem to use links only.
> Although
> this is probably the "safest" - my suggestion would be to have a link
> and a
> one sentence description.
I think such descriptions are user-friendly. Why download a whole page
to determine relevancy? We can always edit a submission if someone takes
undue advantage.
> Is this allowed?
*I* have no problem with it.
> Example for consulting:
>
>>>
> <link>S & N AG </link>
> The open source group at S&N AG, Paderborn, Germany, offers consulting
> services and support for Cocoon.
> <<
>
> This should be the same for "Solutions" also.
Can one sentence sufficiently describe all such solutions?
Diana
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RE: xml.apache.org/cocoon
Posted by Matthew Langham <ml...@s-und-n.de>.
I have a question concerning these links:
> Cocoon consultants (Struts has this)
> + Links to companies or people providing Cocoon support etc.
> External Sites
> Cocoon based solutions
> + Links to companies or people providing Cocoon based solutions
We need to make sure that these links are not misused as advertisement -
correct? I checked the Struts page and they seem to use links only. Although
this is probably the "safest" - my suggestion would be to have a link and a
one sentence description. Is this allowed?
Example for consulting:
>>
<link>S & N AG </link>
The open source group at S&N AG, Paderborn, Germany, offers consulting
services and support for Cocoon.
<<
This should be the same for "Solutions" also.
What do you think?
Matthew
--
Open Source Group Cocoon { Consulting, Training, Projects }
=================================================================
Matthew Langham, S&N AG, Klingenderstrasse 5, D-33100 Paderborn
Tel:+49-5251-1581-30 mlangham@s-und-n.de - http://www.s-und-n.de
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Cocoon book:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735712352/needacake-20
=================================================================
-----Original Message-----
From: Diana Shannon [mailto:shannon@apache.org]
Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 12:39 PM
To: cocoon-dev@xml.apache.org
Subject: Re: xml.apache.org/cocoon
On Monday, June 3, 2002, at 06:06 AM, Matthew Langham wrote:
> External resources
> Cocoon consultants (Struts has this)
> + Links to companies or people providing Cocoon support etc.
Great.
> Success stories
> + Links to success stories
Yes, links are great but success stories, hosted on the Cocoon site, are
even better. I want to add this as a contributor document type. I
haven't written a how-to yet. My hope was that it could fill in some
meaningful details behind-the-scenes details about the live site links
Cocoon currently has. It would have to be a balance: it shouldn't be
purely promotional, nor should it (necessarily) give away all of a
developers "trade secrets". Still, it would give other Cocoon users
tangible examples of what could be done, and how a particular problem
was approached.
> External Sites
> Cocoon based solutions
> + Links to companies or people providing Cocoon based solutions
Great.
Care to provide a patch?
Diana
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RE: xml.apache.org/cocoon
Posted by Matthew Langham <ml...@s-und-n.de>.
Hi,
>>
Care to provide a patch?
<<
I will do.
Matthew
--
Open Source Group Cocoon { Consulting, Training, Projects }
=================================================================
Matthew Langham, S&N AG, Klingenderstrasse 5, D-33100 Paderborn
Tel:+49-5251-1581-30 mlangham@s-und-n.de - http://www.s-und-n.de
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Cocoon book:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735712352/needacake-20
=================================================================
-----Original Message-----
From: Diana Shannon [mailto:shannon@apache.org]
Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 12:39 PM
To: cocoon-dev@xml.apache.org
Subject: Re: xml.apache.org/cocoon
On Monday, June 3, 2002, at 06:06 AM, Matthew Langham wrote:
> External resources
> Cocoon consultants (Struts has this)
> + Links to companies or people providing Cocoon support etc.
Great.
> Success stories
> + Links to success stories
Yes, links are great but success stories, hosted on the Cocoon site, are
even better. I want to add this as a contributor document type. I
haven't written a how-to yet. My hope was that it could fill in some
meaningful details behind-the-scenes details about the live site links
Cocoon currently has. It would have to be a balance: it shouldn't be
purely promotional, nor should it (necessarily) give away all of a
developers "trade secrets". Still, it would give other Cocoon users
tangible examples of what could be done, and how a particular problem
was approached.
> External Sites
> Cocoon based solutions
> + Links to companies or people providing Cocoon based solutions
Great.
Care to provide a patch?
Diana
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Re: xml.apache.org/cocoon
Posted by Diana Shannon <sh...@apache.org>.
On Monday, June 3, 2002, at 06:06 AM, Matthew Langham wrote:
> External resources
> Cocoon consultants (Struts has this)
> + Links to companies or people providing Cocoon support etc.
Great.
> Success stories
> + Links to success stories
Yes, links are great but success stories, hosted on the Cocoon site, are
even better. I want to add this as a contributor document type. I
haven't written a how-to yet. My hope was that it could fill in some
meaningful details behind-the-scenes details about the live site links
Cocoon currently has. It would have to be a balance: it shouldn't be
purely promotional, nor should it (necessarily) give away all of a
developers "trade secrets". Still, it would give other Cocoon users
tangible examples of what could be done, and how a particular problem
was approached.
> External Sites
> Cocoon based solutions
> + Links to companies or people providing Cocoon based solutions
Great.
Care to provide a patch?
Diana
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