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Posted to dev@community.apache.org by Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com> on 2014/07/06 08:48:21 UTC
RE: Proposing for Apache Member?
Yes, of course a community member can propose a member. As Rob says, the nomination and election has to be done by the Members, but not all projects have existing members acting as the eyes and ears.
Of course, not having members in a project community shouldn't impact the project since it is self-managing and membership is only a foundational level thing. Nevertheless, the membership needs to be a good cross-section of our project communities.
If a community member feels someone is being overlooked a mail to private@community.apache.org will reach people who can add notes to the member watch list.
This is the right list for discussing what we look for in members.
Sent from my phone - please forgive brevity and typos
-----Original Message-----
From: "Rob Vesse" <rv...@dotnetrdf.org>
Sent: 7/8/2014 10:42
To: "dev@community.apache.org" <de...@community.apache.org>
Subject: Re: Proposing for Apache Member?
Pierre
Not unless one/more of those contributors is themselves a Member/Officer
of the ASF - see Sectopn 4.1 of the Bylaws
(http://apache.org/foundation/bylaws.html#4.1) which states the following:
To be eligible for membership, a person or entity must be nominated by a
current member of the corporation and must complete a written membership
application in such form as shall be adopted by the Board of Directors
from time to time
Therefore contributors of a project can't directly, I guess they could
talk to ASF members they know and suggest that person with the aim of
getting a nomination but not being a member myself I'm not sure if that
would be acceptable behaviour. Ultimately ASF is a meritocracy and my
personal impression based on people who I know of who've become members in
the past couple of years is that to become a member you need to be active
across the foundation (not just within a small part of it) for a prolonged
period.
One thing worth asking is why the community you are involved in feels the
need to have someone be elected as a Member?
Rob
On 08/07/2014 09:43, "Pierre Smits" <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Hi All,
>
>Is it possible that contributors of a project can propose a community
>member to be elected as an Apache Member?
>
>Regards,
>
>Pierre Smits
>
>*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
>Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>Based Manufacturing, Professional
>Services and Retail & Trade
>http://www.orrtiz.com
Re: Proposing for Apache Member?
Posted by jan i <ja...@apache.org>.
On 8 July 2014 18:45, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well, you can't deny that I did propose an amendment to the by-laws a
> posting ago. :-)
>
Is there a reason why you are not consistent and apply the same to PMC ?
You have exact the same setup, anybody can propose and discuss a new PMC
candidate, but a PMC member need to nominate and start the voting process.
rgds
jan I
>
> Regards,
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 2:52 PM, Issac Goldstand <ma...@beamartyr.net>
> wrote:
>
> > No, because contributors aren't proposing anything as far as the ASF is
> > concerned. They're just having a discussion.
> >
> > Until it comes from a member, it's not a nomination or a proposal or
> > anything other than a discussion.
> >
> > Issac
> >
> > On 08/07/2014 15:44, Pierre Smits wrote:
> > > All,
> > >
> > > Taking into consideration that nominate and propose - in general and in
> > > this context - mean the same and that any contributor can propose
> > > potentials for ASF Membership, shouldn't the by-laws of the Foundation
> > > reflect this?
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Pierre Smits
> > >
> > > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> > > Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> > > Based Manufacturing, Professional
> > > Services and Retail & Trade
> > > http://www.orrtiz.com
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Jul 6, 2014 at 8:48 AM, Ross Gardler <
> rgardler@opendirective.com
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Yes, of course a community member can propose a member. As Rob says,
> the
> > >> nomination and election has to be done by the Members, but not all
> > projects
> > >> have existing members acting as the eyes and ears.
> > >>
> > >> Of course, not having members in a project community shouldn't impact
> > the
> > >> project since it is self-managing and membership is only a
> foundational
> > >> level thing. Nevertheless, the membership needs to be a good
> > cross-section
> > >> of our project communities.
> > >>
> > >> If a community member feels someone is being overlooked a mail to
> > >> private@community.apache.org will reach people who can add notes to
> the
> > >> member watch list.
> > >>
> > >> This is the right list for discussing what we look for in members.
> > >>
> > >> Sent from my phone - please forgive brevity and typos
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: "Rob Vesse" <rv...@dotnetrdf.org>
> > >> Sent: 7/8/2014 10:42
> > >> To: "dev@community.apache.org" <de...@community.apache.org>
> > >> Subject: Re: Proposing for Apache Member?
> > >>
> > >> Pierre
> > >>
> > >> Not unless one/more of those contributors is themselves a
> Member/Officer
> > >> of the ASF - see Sectopn 4.1 of the Bylaws
> > >> (http://apache.org/foundation/bylaws.html#4.1) which states the
> > following:
> > >>
> > >> To be eligible for membership, a person or entity must be nominated
> by a
> > >> current member of the corporation and must complete a written
> membership
> > >> application in such form as shall be adopted by the Board of Directors
> > >> from time to time
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Therefore contributors of a project can't directly, I guess they could
> > >> talk to ASF members they know and suggest that person with the aim of
> > >> getting a nomination but not being a member myself I'm not sure if
> that
> > >> would be acceptable behaviour. Ultimately ASF is a meritocracy and my
> > >> personal impression based on people who I know of who've become
> members
> > in
> > >> the past couple of years is that to become a member you need to be
> > active
> > >> across the foundation (not just within a small part of it) for a
> > prolonged
> > >> period.
> > >>
> > >> One thing worth asking is why the community you are involved in feels
> > the
> > >> need to have someone be elected as a Member?
> > >>
> > >> Rob
> > >>
> > >> On 08/07/2014 09:43, "Pierre Smits" <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Hi All,
> > >>>
> > >>> Is it possible that contributors of a project can propose a community
> > >>> member to be elected as an Apache Member?
> > >>>
> > >>> Regards,
> > >>>
> > >>> Pierre Smits
> > >>>
> > >>> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> > >>> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> > >>> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> > >>> Services and Retail & Trade
> > >>> http://www.orrtiz.com
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> >
> >
>
Re: Proposing for Apache Member?
Posted by Issac Goldstand <ma...@beamartyr.net>.
I'm not denying it - but I don't personally see the need for it.
Issac
On 08/07/2014 19:45, Pierre Smits wrote:
> Well, you can't deny that I did propose an amendment to the by-laws a
> posting ago. :-)
>
> Regards,
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 2:52 PM, Issac Goldstand <ma...@beamartyr.net>
> wrote:
>
>> No, because contributors aren't proposing anything as far as the ASF is
>> concerned. They're just having a discussion.
>>
>> Until it comes from a member, it's not a nomination or a proposal or
>> anything other than a discussion.
>>
>> Issac
>>
>> On 08/07/2014 15:44, Pierre Smits wrote:
>>> All,
>>>
>>> Taking into consideration that nominate and propose - in general and in
>>> this context - mean the same and that any contributor can propose
>>> potentials for ASF Membership, shouldn't the by-laws of the Foundation
>>> reflect this?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Pierre Smits
>>>
>>> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
>>> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>>> Based Manufacturing, Professional
>>> Services and Retail & Trade
>>> http://www.orrtiz.com
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jul 6, 2014 at 8:48 AM, Ross Gardler <rgardler@opendirective.com
>>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes, of course a community member can propose a member. As Rob says, the
>>>> nomination and election has to be done by the Members, but not all
>> projects
>>>> have existing members acting as the eyes and ears.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, not having members in a project community shouldn't impact
>> the
>>>> project since it is self-managing and membership is only a foundational
>>>> level thing. Nevertheless, the membership needs to be a good
>> cross-section
>>>> of our project communities.
>>>>
>>>> If a community member feels someone is being overlooked a mail to
>>>> private@community.apache.org will reach people who can add notes to the
>>>> member watch list.
>>>>
>>>> This is the right list for discussing what we look for in members.
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my phone - please forgive brevity and typos
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: "Rob Vesse" <rv...@dotnetrdf.org>
>>>> Sent: 7/8/2014 10:42
>>>> To: "dev@community.apache.org" <de...@community.apache.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: Proposing for Apache Member?
>>>>
>>>> Pierre
>>>>
>>>> Not unless one/more of those contributors is themselves a Member/Officer
>>>> of the ASF - see Sectopn 4.1 of the Bylaws
>>>> (http://apache.org/foundation/bylaws.html#4.1) which states the
>> following:
>>>>
>>>> To be eligible for membership, a person or entity must be nominated by a
>>>> current member of the corporation and must complete a written membership
>>>> application in such form as shall be adopted by the Board of Directors
>>>> from time to time
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Therefore contributors of a project can't directly, I guess they could
>>>> talk to ASF members they know and suggest that person with the aim of
>>>> getting a nomination but not being a member myself I'm not sure if that
>>>> would be acceptable behaviour. Ultimately ASF is a meritocracy and my
>>>> personal impression based on people who I know of who've become members
>> in
>>>> the past couple of years is that to become a member you need to be
>> active
>>>> across the foundation (not just within a small part of it) for a
>> prolonged
>>>> period.
>>>>
>>>> One thing worth asking is why the community you are involved in feels
>> the
>>>> need to have someone be elected as a Member?
>>>>
>>>> Rob
>>>>
>>>> On 08/07/2014 09:43, "Pierre Smits" <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>
>>>>> Is it possible that contributors of a project can propose a community
>>>>> member to be elected as an Apache Member?
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Pierre Smits
>>>>>
>>>>> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
>>>>> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>>>>> Based Manufacturing, Professional
>>>>> Services and Retail & Trade
>>>>> http://www.orrtiz.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
Re: Proposing for Apache Member?
Posted by Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>.
Well, you can't deny that I did propose an amendment to the by-laws a
posting ago. :-)
Regards,
Pierre Smits
*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com
On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 2:52 PM, Issac Goldstand <ma...@beamartyr.net>
wrote:
> No, because contributors aren't proposing anything as far as the ASF is
> concerned. They're just having a discussion.
>
> Until it comes from a member, it's not a nomination or a proposal or
> anything other than a discussion.
>
> Issac
>
> On 08/07/2014 15:44, Pierre Smits wrote:
> > All,
> >
> > Taking into consideration that nominate and propose - in general and in
> > this context - mean the same and that any contributor can propose
> > potentials for ASF Membership, shouldn't the by-laws of the Foundation
> > reflect this?
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Pierre Smits
> >
> > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> > Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> > Based Manufacturing, Professional
> > Services and Retail & Trade
> > http://www.orrtiz.com
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Jul 6, 2014 at 8:48 AM, Ross Gardler <rgardler@opendirective.com
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Yes, of course a community member can propose a member. As Rob says, the
> >> nomination and election has to be done by the Members, but not all
> projects
> >> have existing members acting as the eyes and ears.
> >>
> >> Of course, not having members in a project community shouldn't impact
> the
> >> project since it is self-managing and membership is only a foundational
> >> level thing. Nevertheless, the membership needs to be a good
> cross-section
> >> of our project communities.
> >>
> >> If a community member feels someone is being overlooked a mail to
> >> private@community.apache.org will reach people who can add notes to the
> >> member watch list.
> >>
> >> This is the right list for discussing what we look for in members.
> >>
> >> Sent from my phone - please forgive brevity and typos
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: "Rob Vesse" <rv...@dotnetrdf.org>
> >> Sent: 7/8/2014 10:42
> >> To: "dev@community.apache.org" <de...@community.apache.org>
> >> Subject: Re: Proposing for Apache Member?
> >>
> >> Pierre
> >>
> >> Not unless one/more of those contributors is themselves a Member/Officer
> >> of the ASF - see Sectopn 4.1 of the Bylaws
> >> (http://apache.org/foundation/bylaws.html#4.1) which states the
> following:
> >>
> >> To be eligible for membership, a person or entity must be nominated by a
> >> current member of the corporation and must complete a written membership
> >> application in such form as shall be adopted by the Board of Directors
> >> from time to time
> >>
> >>
> >> Therefore contributors of a project can't directly, I guess they could
> >> talk to ASF members they know and suggest that person with the aim of
> >> getting a nomination but not being a member myself I'm not sure if that
> >> would be acceptable behaviour. Ultimately ASF is a meritocracy and my
> >> personal impression based on people who I know of who've become members
> in
> >> the past couple of years is that to become a member you need to be
> active
> >> across the foundation (not just within a small part of it) for a
> prolonged
> >> period.
> >>
> >> One thing worth asking is why the community you are involved in feels
> the
> >> need to have someone be elected as a Member?
> >>
> >> Rob
> >>
> >> On 08/07/2014 09:43, "Pierre Smits" <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi All,
> >>>
> >>> Is it possible that contributors of a project can propose a community
> >>> member to be elected as an Apache Member?
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>>
> >>> Pierre Smits
> >>>
> >>> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> >>> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> >>> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> >>> Services and Retail & Trade
> >>> http://www.orrtiz.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
Re: Proposing for Apache Member?
Posted by Issac Goldstand <ma...@beamartyr.net>.
No, because contributors aren't proposing anything as far as the ASF is
concerned. They're just having a discussion.
Until it comes from a member, it's not a nomination or a proposal or
anything other than a discussion.
Issac
On 08/07/2014 15:44, Pierre Smits wrote:
> All,
>
> Taking into consideration that nominate and propose - in general and in
> this context - mean the same and that any contributor can propose
> potentials for ASF Membership, shouldn't the by-laws of the Foundation
> reflect this?
>
> Regards,
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 6, 2014 at 8:48 AM, Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Yes, of course a community member can propose a member. As Rob says, the
>> nomination and election has to be done by the Members, but not all projects
>> have existing members acting as the eyes and ears.
>>
>> Of course, not having members in a project community shouldn't impact the
>> project since it is self-managing and membership is only a foundational
>> level thing. Nevertheless, the membership needs to be a good cross-section
>> of our project communities.
>>
>> If a community member feels someone is being overlooked a mail to
>> private@community.apache.org will reach people who can add notes to the
>> member watch list.
>>
>> This is the right list for discussing what we look for in members.
>>
>> Sent from my phone - please forgive brevity and typos
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: "Rob Vesse" <rv...@dotnetrdf.org>
>> Sent: 7/8/2014 10:42
>> To: "dev@community.apache.org" <de...@community.apache.org>
>> Subject: Re: Proposing for Apache Member?
>>
>> Pierre
>>
>> Not unless one/more of those contributors is themselves a Member/Officer
>> of the ASF - see Sectopn 4.1 of the Bylaws
>> (http://apache.org/foundation/bylaws.html#4.1) which states the following:
>>
>> To be eligible for membership, a person or entity must be nominated by a
>> current member of the corporation and must complete a written membership
>> application in such form as shall be adopted by the Board of Directors
>> from time to time
>>
>>
>> Therefore contributors of a project can't directly, I guess they could
>> talk to ASF members they know and suggest that person with the aim of
>> getting a nomination but not being a member myself I'm not sure if that
>> would be acceptable behaviour. Ultimately ASF is a meritocracy and my
>> personal impression based on people who I know of who've become members in
>> the past couple of years is that to become a member you need to be active
>> across the foundation (not just within a small part of it) for a prolonged
>> period.
>>
>> One thing worth asking is why the community you are involved in feels the
>> need to have someone be elected as a Member?
>>
>> Rob
>>
>> On 08/07/2014 09:43, "Pierre Smits" <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> Is it possible that contributors of a project can propose a community
>>> member to be elected as an Apache Member?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Pierre Smits
>>>
>>> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
>>> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>>> Based Manufacturing, Professional
>>> Services and Retail & Trade
>>> http://www.orrtiz.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
Re: Proposing for Apache Member?
Posted by Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>.
All,
Taking into consideration that nominate and propose - in general and in
this context - mean the same and that any contributor can propose
potentials for ASF Membership, shouldn't the by-laws of the Foundation
reflect this?
Regards,
Pierre Smits
*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com
On Sun, Jul 6, 2014 at 8:48 AM, Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>
wrote:
> Yes, of course a community member can propose a member. As Rob says, the
> nomination and election has to be done by the Members, but not all projects
> have existing members acting as the eyes and ears.
>
> Of course, not having members in a project community shouldn't impact the
> project since it is self-managing and membership is only a foundational
> level thing. Nevertheless, the membership needs to be a good cross-section
> of our project communities.
>
> If a community member feels someone is being overlooked a mail to
> private@community.apache.org will reach people who can add notes to the
> member watch list.
>
> This is the right list for discussing what we look for in members.
>
> Sent from my phone - please forgive brevity and typos
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Rob Vesse" <rv...@dotnetrdf.org>
> Sent: 7/8/2014 10:42
> To: "dev@community.apache.org" <de...@community.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Proposing for Apache Member?
>
> Pierre
>
> Not unless one/more of those contributors is themselves a Member/Officer
> of the ASF - see Sectopn 4.1 of the Bylaws
> (http://apache.org/foundation/bylaws.html#4.1) which states the following:
>
> To be eligible for membership, a person or entity must be nominated by a
> current member of the corporation and must complete a written membership
> application in such form as shall be adopted by the Board of Directors
> from time to time
>
>
> Therefore contributors of a project can't directly, I guess they could
> talk to ASF members they know and suggest that person with the aim of
> getting a nomination but not being a member myself I'm not sure if that
> would be acceptable behaviour. Ultimately ASF is a meritocracy and my
> personal impression based on people who I know of who've become members in
> the past couple of years is that to become a member you need to be active
> across the foundation (not just within a small part of it) for a prolonged
> period.
>
> One thing worth asking is why the community you are involved in feels the
> need to have someone be elected as a Member?
>
> Rob
>
> On 08/07/2014 09:43, "Pierre Smits" <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Hi All,
> >
> >Is it possible that contributors of a project can propose a community
> >member to be elected as an Apache Member?
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >Pierre Smits
> >
> >*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> >Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> >Based Manufacturing, Professional
> >Services and Retail & Trade
> >http://www.orrtiz.com
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Proposing for Apache Member?
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>.
It is correct that VPs (e.g. PMC chairs) are not necessarily Members,
though it is common that such individuals are nominated for membership at
the next opportunity.
If we made foundation membership a requirement for PMC chairs we would be
limiting the project communities choice for the role of chair based on
foundational merit. That would not be appropriate.
On 8 Jul 2014 19:43, "Issac Goldstand" <ma...@beamartyr.net> wrote:
> Ross,
>
> So to clarify, not all ASF officers are necessarily ASF members?
>
> Issac
>
> On 06/07/2014 16:14, Ross Gardler wrote:
> > The officer is the PMC chair, not all chairs are members.
> >
> > Sent from my phone - please forgive brevity and typos
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: "Issac Goldstand" <ma...@beamartyr.net>
> > Sent: 7/8/2014 12:10
> > To: "dev@community.apache.org" <de...@community.apache.org>
> > Subject: Re: Proposing for Apache Member?
> >
> > On 06/07/2014 09:48, Ross Gardler wrote:
> >>
> > [snip]
> > but not all projects have existing members acting as the eyes and ears.
> > [/snip]
> >>
> >
> > Don't they?
> >
> > "In addition to the officers of the corporation, the Board of Directors
> > may, by resolution, establish one or more Project Management Committees
> > consisting of at least one officer of the corporation, who shall be
> > designated chairman of such committee, and may include one or more other
> > members of the corporation."
> >
> > http://apache.org/foundation/bylaws.html#6.3
> >
> > Issac
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Re: Proposing for Apache Member?
Posted by jan i <ja...@apache.org>.
On 11 July 2014 14:45, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The hat 'User' states that the following:
>
> They contribute to the Apache projects by providing feedback to developers
> in the form of bug reports and feature suggestions
>
> The hat 'Developer' states that the following:
>
> a user who contributes...
>
>
> In general, a user only consumes the work (the software, the documentation,
> the postings on the mailing list). They aren't active as contributors (in
> any way, within the community of a project). As soon as a user gets
> involved in a project (participating in discussions in the mailing list,
> posting JIRA issues, etc) he becomes a contributor to the project and its
> work. This person might be a developer or not, a documentalist or not, etc.
>
> Having the 'contribute' in both descriptions makes it ambiguous. Removing
> the aspect of contributing from the hat 'User' partly removes that
> ambiguity. Renaming the hat 'Developer' to 'Contributor', does the other
> part.
>
A user and a developer are two faces on the same coin, they both contribute
to the project but of course with different parts.
In AOO we get a lot of highly valued opinions, suggestions and error
reports from our users. These items are contributions. Once the users get
involved in the project, they seem get to be committers.
I tend to agree with you, that there are no reason to diferentiate
user/developer, problem is that the world in general does that.
>
> Subsequently, the hat 'Committer' could be redefined with following:
>
> A *committer *is a contributor, that was given write access...
>
> Actually a committer is quite a lot more, than just having write access.
rgds
jan I.
>
> Regards,
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 11, 2014 at 2:13 PM, Eric Covener <co...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Jul 11, 2014 at 7:23 AM, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > How can it be that 'Contributor' is not an official 'hat'-definition in
> > the
> > > (explanatory) pages of the ASF? While so much importance is placed on
> > > correct usage of terminology in projects and elsewhere, based on those
> > > pages.
> > >
> > > Shouldn't the document
> > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#roles be amended
> > (with
> > > respect to definitons 'User' and 'Developer) in such a way that it
> > reflects
> > > that?
> >
> > I don't think a generic "Contributor" adds much to that document. What
> > confusion about the term contributors would the hypothetical update
> > clarify?
> >
>
RE: Proposing for Apache Member?
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
While a little tweaking about contributions and contributors might help, the common use of those terms tends to be sufficient. The User hat is also a casual description. There are no bright lines.
Note that "Contributor" and "Contribution" as narrow terms of art are called out by explicit definition when needed, as at <http://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0.txt>.
I think the mistake is defining "User" as an Apache Hat. You can talk about "them" all you want, but it does not appear to be an useful designation other than for those who self-proclaim themselves to be users (as is certainly their right). Even "user" reports of misadventures and difficulties are contributions and those can be quite valuable. I see no reason for Apache to consider that a distinguishable hat, especially with implications of some sort of rank.
Thinking hierarchically, an user is anyone who engages with the project. We don't know Jack about the ones that don't, not even from download counts. Identifiable engagement is a contribution, however fleeting. It would work for me to see there be contributors and then how some contributors also have committer (and other roles) at the ASF and ASF projects.
I'm a committer. I am not wearing my committer hat in writing and posting this message. It doesn't seem to me that I am wearing an user hat either. I trust that it is a contribution, nonetheless.
What hats are others wearing at the time of their participation on this thread?
-- Dennis E. Hamilton
dennis.hamilton@acm.org +1-206-779-9430
https://keybase.io/orcmid PGP F96E 89FF D456 628A
X.509 used and required for signed e-mail
PS: Since it is rare, in practice, for me to make a direct commit to any project, my being a committer works out to be more about the orcmid @a.o identifier, the fact that I have a CLA on file, and that I have access to some mailing lists and resources (including a ~orcmid computer account) that are provided to committers.
-----Original Message-----
From: Pierre Smits [mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 05:45
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Proposing for Apache Member?
The hat 'User' states that the following:
They contribute to the Apache projects by providing feedback to developers
in the form of bug reports and feature suggestions
The hat 'Developer' states that the following:
a user who contributes...
In general, a user only consumes the work (the software, the documentation,
the postings on the mailing list). They aren't active as contributors (in
any way, within the community of a project). As soon as a user gets
involved in a project (participating in discussions in the mailing list,
posting JIRA issues, etc) he becomes a contributor to the project and its
work. This person might be a developer or not, a documentalist or not, etc.
Having the 'contribute' in both descriptions makes it ambiguous. Removing
the aspect of contributing from the hat 'User' partly removes that
ambiguity. Renaming the hat 'Developer' to 'Contributor', does the other
part.
Subsequently, the hat 'Committer' could be redefined with following:
A *committer *is a contributor, that was given write access...
Regards,
Pierre Smits
*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com
On Fri, Jul 11, 2014 at 2:13 PM, Eric Covener <co...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 11, 2014 at 7:23 AM, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > How can it be that 'Contributor' is not an official 'hat'-definition in
> the
> > (explanatory) pages of the ASF? While so much importance is placed on
> > correct usage of terminology in projects and elsewhere, based on those
> > pages.
> >
> > Shouldn't the document
> > http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#roles be amended
> (with
> > respect to definitons 'User' and 'Developer) in such a way that it
> reflects
> > that?
>
> I don't think a generic "Contributor" adds much to that document. What
> confusion about the term contributors would the hypothetical update
> clarify?
>
Re: Proposing for Apache Member?
Posted by Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>.
The hat 'User' states that the following:
They contribute to the Apache projects by providing feedback to developers
in the form of bug reports and feature suggestions
The hat 'Developer' states that the following:
a user who contributes...
In general, a user only consumes the work (the software, the documentation,
the postings on the mailing list). They aren't active as contributors (in
any way, within the community of a project). As soon as a user gets
involved in a project (participating in discussions in the mailing list,
posting JIRA issues, etc) he becomes a contributor to the project and its
work. This person might be a developer or not, a documentalist or not, etc.
Having the 'contribute' in both descriptions makes it ambiguous. Removing
the aspect of contributing from the hat 'User' partly removes that
ambiguity. Renaming the hat 'Developer' to 'Contributor', does the other
part.
Subsequently, the hat 'Committer' could be redefined with following:
A *committer *is a contributor, that was given write access...
Regards,
Pierre Smits
*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com
On Fri, Jul 11, 2014 at 2:13 PM, Eric Covener <co...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 11, 2014 at 7:23 AM, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > How can it be that 'Contributor' is not an official 'hat'-definition in
> the
> > (explanatory) pages of the ASF? While so much importance is placed on
> > correct usage of terminology in projects and elsewhere, based on those
> > pages.
> >
> > Shouldn't the document
> > http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#roles be amended
> (with
> > respect to definitons 'User' and 'Developer) in such a way that it
> reflects
> > that?
>
> I don't think a generic "Contributor" adds much to that document. What
> confusion about the term contributors would the hypothetical update
> clarify?
>
Re: Proposing for Apache Member?
Posted by Eric Covener <co...@gmail.com>.
On Fri, Jul 11, 2014 at 7:23 AM, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> How can it be that 'Contributor' is not an official 'hat'-definition in the
> (explanatory) pages of the ASF? While so much importance is placed on
> correct usage of terminology in projects and elsewhere, based on those
> pages.
>
> Shouldn't the document
> http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#roles be amended (with
> respect to definitons 'User' and 'Developer) in such a way that it reflects
> that?
I don't think a generic "Contributor" adds much to that document. What
confusion about the term contributors would the hypothetical update
clarify?
Re: Proposing for Apache Member?
Posted by Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>.
Ross,
How can it be that 'Contributor' is not an official 'hat'-definition in the
(explanatory) pages of the ASF? While so much importance is placed on
correct usage of terminology in projects and elsewhere, based on those
pages.
Shouldn't the document
http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#roles be amended (with
respect to definitons 'User' and 'Developer) in such a way that it reflects
that?
Regards,
Pierre Smits
*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com
On Thu, Jul 10, 2014 at 10:06 PM, Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>
wrote:
> Pierre, feel free to ask questions, but I don't see any in your last couple
> of mails. What can we clarify for you?
>
> Ross
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 10 July 2014 04:56, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I not only tried reading, but I did.
> >
> > Pierre Smits
> >
> > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> > Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> > Based Manufacturing, Professional
> > Services and Retail & Trade
> > http://www.orrtiz.com
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 9, 2014 at 11:24 PM, Ross Gardler <
> rgardler@opendirective.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Try reading http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
> > > On 9 Jul 2014 22:20, "Pierre Smits" <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > It is a bit strange to read that 'Contributor' is not the official
> role
> > > for
> > > > anybody who is committed to an Apache project. Equally strange is it
> to
> > > > read that both the 'User' and the 'Developer' is defined/explained as
> > the
> > > > person who is contributing.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Pierre Smits
> > > >
> > > > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> > > > Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> > > > Based Manufacturing, Professional
> > > > Services and Retail & Trade
> > > > http://www.orrtiz.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 9:27 PM, Chip Childers <
> chipchilders@apache.org
> > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Jul 08, 2014 at 09:42:56PM +0300, Issac Goldstand wrote:
> > > > > > Ross,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So to clarify, not all ASF officers are necessarily ASF members?
> > > > >
> > > > > Correct. See:
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#roles
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
Re: Proposing for Apache Member?
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>.
Pierre, feel free to ask questions, but I don't see any in your last couple
of mails. What can we clarify for you?
Ross
On 10 July 2014 04:56, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I not only tried reading, but I did.
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 9, 2014 at 11:24 PM, Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Try reading http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
> > On 9 Jul 2014 22:20, "Pierre Smits" <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > It is a bit strange to read that 'Contributor' is not the official role
> > for
> > > anybody who is committed to an Apache project. Equally strange is it to
> > > read that both the 'User' and the 'Developer' is defined/explained as
> the
> > > person who is contributing.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Pierre Smits
> > >
> > > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> > > Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> > > Based Manufacturing, Professional
> > > Services and Retail & Trade
> > > http://www.orrtiz.com
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 9:27 PM, Chip Childers <chipchilders@apache.org
> >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Tue, Jul 08, 2014 at 09:42:56PM +0300, Issac Goldstand wrote:
> > > > > Ross,
> > > > >
> > > > > So to clarify, not all ASF officers are necessarily ASF members?
> > > >
> > > > Correct. See:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#roles
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
Re: Proposing for Apache Member?
Posted by jan i <ja...@apache.org>.
On Jul 10, 2014 1:57 PM, "Pierre Smits" <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I not only tried reading, but I did.
Maybe this link will help you
https://community.apache.org/contributors/
Mvh
Jan I
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 9, 2014 at 11:24 PM, Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Try reading http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
> > On 9 Jul 2014 22:20, "Pierre Smits" <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > It is a bit strange to read that 'Contributor' is not the official
role
> > for
> > > anybody who is committed to an Apache project. Equally strange is it
to
> > > read that both the 'User' and the 'Developer' is defined/explained as
the
> > > person who is contributing.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Pierre Smits
> > >
> > > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> > > Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> > > Based Manufacturing, Professional
> > > Services and Retail & Trade
> > > http://www.orrtiz.com
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 9:27 PM, Chip Childers <chipchilders@apache.org
>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Tue, Jul 08, 2014 at 09:42:56PM +0300, Issac Goldstand wrote:
> > > > > Ross,
> > > > >
> > > > > So to clarify, not all ASF officers are necessarily ASF members?
> > > >
> > > > Correct. See:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#roles
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
Re: Proposing for Apache Member?
Posted by Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>.
I not only tried reading, but I did.
Pierre Smits
*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com
On Wed, Jul 9, 2014 at 11:24 PM, Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>
wrote:
> Try reading http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
> On 9 Jul 2014 22:20, "Pierre Smits" <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > It is a bit strange to read that 'Contributor' is not the official role
> for
> > anybody who is committed to an Apache project. Equally strange is it to
> > read that both the 'User' and the 'Developer' is defined/explained as the
> > person who is contributing.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Pierre Smits
> >
> > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> > Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> > Based Manufacturing, Professional
> > Services and Retail & Trade
> > http://www.orrtiz.com
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 9:27 PM, Chip Childers <ch...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On Tue, Jul 08, 2014 at 09:42:56PM +0300, Issac Goldstand wrote:
> > > > Ross,
> > > >
> > > > So to clarify, not all ASF officers are necessarily ASF members?
> > >
> > > Correct. See:
> > >
> > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#roles
> > >
> > >
> >
>
Re: Proposing for Apache Member?
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>.
Try reading http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
On 9 Jul 2014 22:20, "Pierre Smits" <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It is a bit strange to read that 'Contributor' is not the official role for
> anybody who is committed to an Apache project. Equally strange is it to
> read that both the 'User' and the 'Developer' is defined/explained as the
> person who is contributing.
>
>
>
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 9:27 PM, Chip Childers <ch...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Jul 08, 2014 at 09:42:56PM +0300, Issac Goldstand wrote:
> > > Ross,
> > >
> > > So to clarify, not all ASF officers are necessarily ASF members?
> >
> > Correct. See:
> >
> > http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#roles
> >
> >
>
Re: Proposing for Apache Member?
Posted by Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>.
It is a bit strange to read that 'Contributor' is not the official role for
anybody who is committed to an Apache project. Equally strange is it to
read that both the 'User' and the 'Developer' is defined/explained as the
person who is contributing.
Pierre Smits
*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com
On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 9:27 PM, Chip Childers <ch...@apache.org>
wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 08, 2014 at 09:42:56PM +0300, Issac Goldstand wrote:
> > Ross,
> >
> > So to clarify, not all ASF officers are necessarily ASF members?
>
> Correct. See:
>
> http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#roles
>
>
Re: Proposing for Apache Member?
Posted by Chip Childers <ch...@apache.org>.
On Tue, Jul 08, 2014 at 09:42:56PM +0300, Issac Goldstand wrote:
> Ross,
>
> So to clarify, not all ASF officers are necessarily ASF members?
Correct. See:
http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#roles
Re: Proposing for Apache Member?
Posted by Issac Goldstand <ma...@beamartyr.net>.
Ross,
So to clarify, not all ASF officers are necessarily ASF members?
Issac
On 06/07/2014 16:14, Ross Gardler wrote:
> The officer is the PMC chair, not all chairs are members.
>
> Sent from my phone - please forgive brevity and typos
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Issac Goldstand" <ma...@beamartyr.net>
> Sent: 7/8/2014 12:10
> To: "dev@community.apache.org" <de...@community.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Proposing for Apache Member?
>
> On 06/07/2014 09:48, Ross Gardler wrote:
>>
> [snip]
> but not all projects have existing members acting as the eyes and ears.
> [/snip]
>>
>
> Don't they?
>
> "In addition to the officers of the corporation, the Board of Directors
> may, by resolution, establish one or more Project Management Committees
> consisting of at least one officer of the corporation, who shall be
> designated chairman of such committee, and may include one or more other
> members of the corporation."
>
> http://apache.org/foundation/bylaws.html#6.3
>
> Issac
>
>
>
>
RE: Proposing for Apache Member?
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>.
The officer is the PMC chair, not all chairs are members.
Sent from my phone - please forgive brevity and typos
-----Original Message-----
From: "Issac Goldstand" <ma...@beamartyr.net>
Sent: 7/8/2014 12:10
To: "dev@community.apache.org" <de...@community.apache.org>
Subject: Re: Proposing for Apache Member?
On 06/07/2014 09:48, Ross Gardler wrote:
>
[snip]
but not all projects have existing members acting as the eyes and ears.
[/snip]
>
Don't they?
"In addition to the officers of the corporation, the Board of Directors
may, by resolution, establish one or more Project Management Committees
consisting of at least one officer of the corporation, who shall be
designated chairman of such committee, and may include one or more other
members of the corporation."
http://apache.org/foundation/bylaws.html#6.3
Issac
Re: Proposing for Apache Member?
Posted by Issac Goldstand <ma...@beamartyr.net>.
On 06/07/2014 09:48, Ross Gardler wrote:
>
[snip]
but not all projects have existing members acting as the eyes and ears.
[/snip]
>
Don't they?
"In addition to the officers of the corporation, the Board of Directors
may, by resolution, establish one or more Project Management Committees
consisting of at least one officer of the corporation, who shall be
designated chairman of such committee, and may include one or more other
members of the corporation."
http://apache.org/foundation/bylaws.html#6.3
Issac