Moderation

[Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org>]

Hi Folks,

Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying to figure out if it's in moderation.

Can the moderators speak up? 

Cheers,
Chris

Re: Moderation

[Eric Evans <jo...@gmail.com>]

On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:44 AM, Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
> So seriously, we're going to send now 4 emails talking about what a user of Apache Cassandra and possible community member could have done right or better or sooner, or that there is no time limit to moderating shit when it could have been as simple as literally sending a confirmation email to moderate it through? This is the definition of process over community. And it's the definition (wrongly so) of why people think it's "Apache" that induces the processes that make shit hard, and not the community itself. Seriously this is a joke. So what if she didn't do it right the first time. You think potentially moderating her mail through and then sending a kind email suggesting she look at the instructions for how to subscribe, which oh someone may not have found easy to do or simply not understood that simply sending an email to the list wouldn't have made it go through the first time? Is it that hard to figure out? Really?
>
> This is the definition of making things hard and not making them easy or friendly. And this is also exactly what enables people to sound off on Twitter about a project, and loses the conversation that could have been had on Apache mailing lists. Kelly has been tweeting for days. I saw her tweets retweeted by someone in my feed, and yesterday asked her kindly to bring her conversation to the list. 12 hours later it's still in moderation, and we are arguing whether to f'ing moderate it through. Wow. Great job.

Wait, what?  As a moderator of this list (unpaid, volunteer), did I
miss the SLA I was being held to?  Are you volunteering to moderate
this list?


-- 
Eric Evans
john.eric.evans@gmail.com

Re: Moderation

[Benedict Elliott Smith <be...@apache.org>]

I'm not a PMC, and given everything that's happened recently, I no longer
have any desire to be.

I have nothing against improving the moderator situation.  What I have, and
continue to have, is something against the way you and the board go about
things.

On 4 November 2016 at 16:57, Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org> wrote:

>
>
> On 2016-11-04 09:51 (-0700), Benedict Elliott Smith <be...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> > Wow, that was quite the aggressive email. The thing is, it very much
> looks
> > like the only reason you care about this delay is because Kellabyte is
> > making the ASF board look bad on twitter.  If it weren't the case, it
> seems
> > unlikely such a "slow" 12hr response would receive board notice, let
> alone
> > ire.
> >
> > I think the board forgets that all of these functions are fulfilled by
> > volunteers (whoever the moderators are - I genuinely haven't a clue).
> > Expecting volunteers to jump to it, because the board is looking bad,
> seems
> > like a pretty clear *abuse* of process.
> >
>
>  She is welcome to denigrate the Apache Board. In fact, if you go back and
> read the Tweets she was originally doing so to DataStax. That said, the
> whole premise is that this is a conversation happening on Twitter where
> potentially knowledge could be gained about *Apache* Cassandra. You know,
> the project here at the ASF? And not somewhere else? Yet again, here we are
> at the 6th email, and the 2 second task to moderate a message through that
> could enable a conversation to be had on the *Apache* lists rather than
> Twitter still remains not being had here.
>
> I have been subscribed to dev@cassandra for months. This is not a high
> volume list. AT ALL. Yet you act like it's volunteer time that's preventing
> moderating a message through in 12 hours. Instead of asking the real
> question - are there enough moderators for the list in different timezones
> that can appropriately ensure that conversation happens on the list? Is
> that your goal? Are you on the Apache Cassandra PMC? Do you think it's
> healthy to send emails trying to talk shit instead of simply moderating
> messages through that could ground the conversation here at the ASF?
>
> Clearly per your snark and email you are pleased with Kelly "making the
> board look bad" [sic] on Twitter. Why not increase the visibility of making
> the board look bad and do so here on the official list for the project? Or
> is Twitter the official list now? Go ahead, I'll wait.
>
>
>
>
> > On 4 November 2016 at 16:44, Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > > So seriously, we're going to send now 4 emails talking about what a
> user
> > > of Apache Cassandra and possible community member could have done
> right or
> > > better or sooner, or that there is no time limit to moderating shit
> when it
> > > could have been as simple as literally sending a confirmation email to
> > > moderate it through? This is the definition of process over community.
> And
> > > it's the definition (wrongly so) of why people think it's "Apache" that
> > > induces the processes that make shit hard, and not the community
> itself.
> > > Seriously this is a joke. So what if she didn't do it right the first
> time.
> > > You think potentially moderating her mail through and then sending a
> kind
> > > email suggesting she look at the instructions for how to subscribe,
> which
> > > oh someone may not have found easy to do or simply not understood that
> > > simply sending an email to the list wouldn't have made it go through
> the
> > > first time? Is it that hard to figure out? Really?
> > >
> > > This is the definition of making things hard and not making them easy
> or
> > > friendly. And this is also exactly what enables people to sound off on
> > > Twitter about a project, and loses the conversation that could have
> been
> > > had on Apache mailing lists. Kelly has been tweeting for days. I saw
> her
> > > tweets retweeted by someone in my feed, and yesterday asked her kindly
> to
> > > bring her conversation to the list. 12 hours later it's still in
> > > moderation, and we are arguing whether to f'ing moderate it through.
> Wow.
> > > Great job.
> > >
> > > On 2016-11-04 09:37 (-0700), Edward Capriolo <ed...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > Is the message in moderation because
> > > > 1) it was sent by someone not registered with the list
> > > > 2) some other reason (anti-spam etc)
> > > >
> > > > If it is is case 1: Isn't the correct process to inform and encourage
> > > > someone list properly?
> > > > If it is case 2: Is there an expected ETA for list moderation events?
> > > > (probably not)
> > > >
> > > > I see twitter mentioned. We know that sometimes news and sentiment in
> > > > social media move fast and cause reactions on incorrect/unvetted
> > > > information.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:58 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3010) <
> > > > chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hmm. Not excessive but you have a situation where someone is
> tweeting
> > > > > thinking her message didn't go through and conversation is
> happening
> > > there
> > > > > when that same conversation could be had on list. If you are ok
> with
> > > that
> > > > > continuing to happen then great but I am not. Can someone please
> > > moderate
> > > > > the message through?
> > > > >
> > > > > Sent from my iPhone
> > > > >
> > > > > > On Nov 4, 2016, at 8:54 AM, Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> On 04/11/2016 15:47, Chris Mattmann wrote:
> > > > > >> Hi Folks,
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying to
> > > figure
> > > > > out if it's in moderation.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Can the moderators speak up?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Using my infra karma, I checked the mail server. That message is
> > > waiting
> > > > > > for moderator approval. It has been in moderation for 12 hours
> which
> > > > > > doesn't strike me as at all excessive.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mark
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Re: Moderation

[Eric Evans <jo...@gmail.com>]

On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:57 AM, Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
> Yet you act like it's volunteer time that's preventing moderating a message through in 12 hours.

Here it is again, 12 hours.  If we have a 12 hour SLA on moderation,
then you can remove me as a moderator; I can't do that.

-- 
Eric Evans
john.eric.evans@gmail.com

Re: Moderation

[Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org>]

On 2016-11-04 09:51 (-0700), Benedict Elliott Smith <be...@apache.org> wrote: 
> Wow, that was quite the aggressive email. The thing is, it very much looks
> like the only reason you care about this delay is because Kellabyte is
> making the ASF board look bad on twitter.  If it weren't the case, it seems
> unlikely such a "slow" 12hr response would receive board notice, let alone
> ire.
> 
> I think the board forgets that all of these functions are fulfilled by
> volunteers (whoever the moderators are - I genuinely haven't a clue).
> Expecting volunteers to jump to it, because the board is looking bad, seems
> like a pretty clear *abuse* of process.
> 

 She is welcome to denigrate the Apache Board. In fact, if you go back and read the Tweets she was originally doing so to DataStax. That said, the whole premise is that this is a conversation happening on Twitter where potentially knowledge could be gained about *Apache* Cassandra. You know, the project here at the ASF? And not somewhere else? Yet again, here we are at the 6th email, and the 2 second task to moderate a message through that could enable a conversation to be had on the *Apache* lists rather than Twitter still remains not being had here. 

I have been subscribed to dev@cassandra for months. This is not a high volume list. AT ALL. Yet you act like it's volunteer time that's preventing moderating a message through in 12 hours. Instead of asking the real question - are there enough moderators for the list in different timezones that can appropriately ensure that conversation happens on the list? Is that your goal? Are you on the Apache Cassandra PMC? Do you think it's healthy to send emails trying to talk shit instead of simply moderating messages through that could ground the conversation here at the ASF? 

Clearly per your snark and email you are pleased with Kelly "making the board look bad" [sic] on Twitter. Why not increase the visibility of making the board look bad and do so here on the official list for the project? Or is Twitter the official list now? Go ahead, I'll wait.




> On 4 November 2016 at 16:44, Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
> 
> > So seriously, we're going to send now 4 emails talking about what a user
> > of Apache Cassandra and possible community member could have done right or
> > better or sooner, or that there is no time limit to moderating shit when it
> > could have been as simple as literally sending a confirmation email to
> > moderate it through? This is the definition of process over community. And
> > it's the definition (wrongly so) of why people think it's "Apache" that
> > induces the processes that make shit hard, and not the community itself.
> > Seriously this is a joke. So what if she didn't do it right the first time.
> > You think potentially moderating her mail through and then sending a kind
> > email suggesting she look at the instructions for how to subscribe, which
> > oh someone may not have found easy to do or simply not understood that
> > simply sending an email to the list wouldn't have made it go through the
> > first time? Is it that hard to figure out? Really?
> >
> > This is the definition of making things hard and not making them easy or
> > friendly. And this is also exactly what enables people to sound off on
> > Twitter about a project, and loses the conversation that could have been
> > had on Apache mailing lists. Kelly has been tweeting for days. I saw her
> > tweets retweeted by someone in my feed, and yesterday asked her kindly to
> > bring her conversation to the list. 12 hours later it's still in
> > moderation, and we are arguing whether to f'ing moderate it through. Wow.
> > Great job.
> >
> > On 2016-11-04 09:37 (-0700), Edward Capriolo <ed...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > Is the message in moderation because
> > > 1) it was sent by someone not registered with the list
> > > 2) some other reason (anti-spam etc)
> > >
> > > If it is is case 1: Isn't the correct process to inform and encourage
> > > someone list properly?
> > > If it is case 2: Is there an expected ETA for list moderation events?
> > > (probably not)
> > >
> > > I see twitter mentioned. We know that sometimes news and sentiment in
> > > social media move fast and cause reactions on incorrect/unvetted
> > > information.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:58 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3010) <
> > > chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hmm. Not excessive but you have a situation where someone is tweeting
> > > > thinking her message didn't go through and conversation is happening
> > there
> > > > when that same conversation could be had on list. If you are ok with
> > that
> > > > continuing to happen then great but I am not. Can someone please
> > moderate
> > > > the message through?
> > > >
> > > > Sent from my iPhone
> > > >
> > > > > On Nov 4, 2016, at 8:54 AM, Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> On 04/11/2016 15:47, Chris Mattmann wrote:
> > > > >> Hi Folks,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying to
> > figure
> > > > out if it's in moderation.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Can the moderators speak up?
> > > > >
> > > > > Using my infra karma, I checked the mail server. That message is
> > waiting
> > > > > for moderator approval. It has been in moderation for 12 hours which
> > > > > doesn't strike me as at all excessive.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mark
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> 

Re: Moderation

[Benedict Elliott Smith <be...@apache.org>]

Wow, that was quite the aggressive email. The thing is, it very much looks
like the only reason you care about this delay is because Kellabyte is
making the ASF board look bad on twitter.  If it weren't the case, it seems
unlikely such a "slow" 12hr response would receive board notice, let alone
ire.

I think the board forgets that all of these functions are fulfilled by
volunteers (whoever the moderators are - I genuinely haven't a clue).
Expecting volunteers to jump to it, because the board is looking bad, seems
like a pretty clear *abuse* of process.

On 4 November 2016 at 16:44, Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org> wrote:

> So seriously, we're going to send now 4 emails talking about what a user
> of Apache Cassandra and possible community member could have done right or
> better or sooner, or that there is no time limit to moderating shit when it
> could have been as simple as literally sending a confirmation email to
> moderate it through? This is the definition of process over community. And
> it's the definition (wrongly so) of why people think it's "Apache" that
> induces the processes that make shit hard, and not the community itself.
> Seriously this is a joke. So what if she didn't do it right the first time.
> You think potentially moderating her mail through and then sending a kind
> email suggesting she look at the instructions for how to subscribe, which
> oh someone may not have found easy to do or simply not understood that
> simply sending an email to the list wouldn't have made it go through the
> first time? Is it that hard to figure out? Really?
>
> This is the definition of making things hard and not making them easy or
> friendly. And this is also exactly what enables people to sound off on
> Twitter about a project, and loses the conversation that could have been
> had on Apache mailing lists. Kelly has been tweeting for days. I saw her
> tweets retweeted by someone in my feed, and yesterday asked her kindly to
> bring her conversation to the list. 12 hours later it's still in
> moderation, and we are arguing whether to f'ing moderate it through. Wow.
> Great job.
>
> On 2016-11-04 09:37 (-0700), Edward Capriolo <ed...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Is the message in moderation because
> > 1) it was sent by someone not registered with the list
> > 2) some other reason (anti-spam etc)
> >
> > If it is is case 1: Isn't the correct process to inform and encourage
> > someone list properly?
> > If it is case 2: Is there an expected ETA for list moderation events?
> > (probably not)
> >
> > I see twitter mentioned. We know that sometimes news and sentiment in
> > social media move fast and cause reactions on incorrect/unvetted
> > information.
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:58 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3010) <
> > chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
> >
> > > Hmm. Not excessive but you have a situation where someone is tweeting
> > > thinking her message didn't go through and conversation is happening
> there
> > > when that same conversation could be had on list. If you are ok with
> that
> > > continuing to happen then great but I am not. Can someone please
> moderate
> > > the message through?
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > > On Nov 4, 2016, at 8:54 AM, Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> On 04/11/2016 15:47, Chris Mattmann wrote:
> > > >> Hi Folks,
> > > >>
> > > >> Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying to
> figure
> > > out if it's in moderation.
> > > >>
> > > >> Can the moderators speak up?
> > > >
> > > > Using my infra karma, I checked the mail server. That message is
> waiting
> > > > for moderator approval. It has been in moderation for 12 hours which
> > > > doesn't strike me as at all excessive.
> > > >
> > > > Mark
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Re: Moderation

[Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org>]

So seriously, we're going to send now 4 emails talking about what a user of Apache Cassandra and possible community member could have done right or better or sooner, or that there is no time limit to moderating shit when it could have been as simple as literally sending a confirmation email to moderate it through? This is the definition of process over community. And it's the definition (wrongly so) of why people think it's "Apache" that induces the processes that make shit hard, and not the community itself. Seriously this is a joke. So what if she didn't do it right the first time. You think potentially moderating her mail through and then sending a kind email suggesting she look at the instructions for how to subscribe, which oh someone may not have found easy to do or simply not understood that simply sending an email to the list wouldn't have made it go through the first time? Is it that hard to figure out? Really?

This is the definition of making things hard and not making them easy or friendly. And this is also exactly what enables people to sound off on Twitter about a project, and loses the conversation that could have been had on Apache mailing lists. Kelly has been tweeting for days. I saw her tweets retweeted by someone in my feed, and yesterday asked her kindly to bring her conversation to the list. 12 hours later it's still in moderation, and we are arguing whether to f'ing moderate it through. Wow. Great job.

On 2016-11-04 09:37 (-0700), Edward Capriolo <ed...@gmail.com> wrote: 
> Is the message in moderation because
> 1) it was sent by someone not registered with the list
> 2) some other reason (anti-spam etc)
> 
> If it is is case 1: Isn't the correct process to inform and encourage
> someone list properly?
> If it is case 2: Is there an expected ETA for list moderation events?
> (probably not)
> 
> I see twitter mentioned. We know that sometimes news and sentiment in
> social media move fast and cause reactions on incorrect/unvetted
> information.
> 
> 
> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:58 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3010) <
> chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
> 
> > Hmm. Not excessive but you have a situation where someone is tweeting
> > thinking her message didn't go through and conversation is happening there
> > when that same conversation could be had on list. If you are ok with that
> > continuing to happen then great but I am not. Can someone please moderate
> > the message through?
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > > On Nov 4, 2016, at 8:54 AM, Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
> > >
> > >> On 04/11/2016 15:47, Chris Mattmann wrote:
> > >> Hi Folks,
> > >>
> > >> Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying to figure
> > out if it's in moderation.
> > >>
> > >> Can the moderators speak up?
> > >
> > > Using my infra karma, I checked the mail server. That message is waiting
> > > for moderator approval. It has been in moderation for 12 hours which
> > > doesn't strike me as at all excessive.
> > >
> > > Mark
> > >
> >
> 

Re: Moderation

[Edward Capriolo <ed...@gmail.com>]

Is the message in moderation because
1) it was sent by someone not registered with the list
2) some other reason (anti-spam etc)

If it is is case 1: Isn't the correct process to inform and encourage
someone list properly?
If it is case 2: Is there an expected ETA for list moderation events?
(probably not)

I see twitter mentioned. We know that sometimes news and sentiment in
social media move fast and cause reactions on incorrect/unvetted
information.


On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:58 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3010) <
chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:

> Hmm. Not excessive but you have a situation where someone is tweeting
> thinking her message didn't go through and conversation is happening there
> when that same conversation could be had on list. If you are ok with that
> continuing to happen then great but I am not. Can someone please moderate
> the message through?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Nov 4, 2016, at 8:54 AM, Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On 04/11/2016 15:47, Chris Mattmann wrote:
> >> Hi Folks,
> >>
> >> Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying to figure
> out if it's in moderation.
> >>
> >> Can the moderators speak up?
> >
> > Using my infra karma, I checked the mail server. That message is waiting
> > for moderator approval. It has been in moderation for 12 hours which
> > doesn't strike me as at all excessive.
> >
> > Mark
> >
>

Re: Moderation

["Mattmann, Chris A (3010)" <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov>]

Hmm. Not excessive but you have a situation where someone is tweeting thinking her message didn't go through and conversation is happening there when that same conversation could be had on list. If you are ok with that continuing to happen then great but I am not. Can someone please moderate the message through?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 4, 2016, at 8:54 AM, Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
> 
>> On 04/11/2016 15:47, Chris Mattmann wrote:
>> Hi Folks,
>> 
>> Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying to figure out if it's in moderation.
>> 
>> Can the moderators speak up?
> 
> Using my infra karma, I checked the mail server. That message is waiting
> for moderator approval. It has been in moderation for 12 hours which
> doesn't strike me as at all excessive.
> 
> Mark
> 

Re: Moderation

[Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org>]

On 04/11/2016 15:47, Chris Mattmann wrote:
> Hi Folks,
> 
> Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying to figure out if it's in moderation.
> 
> Can the moderators speak up?

Using my infra karma, I checked the mail server. That message is waiting
for moderator approval. It has been in moderation for 12 hours which
doesn't strike me as at all excessive.

Mark

Re: Moderation

[Eric Evans <jo...@gmail.com>]

On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:51 AM, Gary Dusbabek <gd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the only one with moderator privs. Any other
> committer/PMCs interested?

You are not.

> Sorry, it's a chore to begin with and I've been traveling this week.

No need to be sorry.

-- 
Eric Evans
john.eric.evans@gmail.com

Re: Moderation

[Jake Farrell <jf...@apache.org>]

Hey Jeff
This link should help a little

http://apache.org/foundation/glossary.html

-Jake

On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 2:52 PM, Jeff Beck <be...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Is there an easy place to get up to speed on all the ASF terms? Infra
> Karma, apmail, etc... I feel behind on understanding what is being talked
> about here.
>
> Jeff
>
> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 12:31 PM Michael Kjellman <
> mkjellman@internalcircle.com> wrote:
>
> > Thank you Chris.
> >
> > I have just replied to her email myself.
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > > On Nov 4, 2016, at 10:24 AM, Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm sorry that you feel I'm promoting the arguing. The point of this
> > thread was a simple request - moderate the email. I suspected that there
> > weren't enough moderators but didn't spend the time to check. Honestly
> this
> > is the Apache Cassandra PMC's job to maintain a healthy set of
> moderators,
> > ideally in diverse timezones. Some may not feel 12 hours is a long time.
> I
> > can only provide answers from most of the other Apache communities I
> > participate in (Tika, Nutch, OODT, Hadoop, Solr/Lucene, Incubator, etc.)
> > and in those communities, that *is* a long time. That said, this was also
> > elevated because I saw someone with real questions asking them on Twitter
> > and not on ASF lists pertaining to the projects (Yes there was also
> > denigrating statements about both DataStax and ASF in there too). So,
> > regarding that, the grown up thing to do (and honestly the "Apache" thing
> > to do) is to bring the conversation on list, and talk, rather than sound
> > off in 25+ different mediums.
> > >
> > > Now we've added a least one more moderator, which will help the root of
> > the problem. And Kelly's email is on list. I will try and reply with my
> > knowledge as a concerned ASF member first, and Board Member second. It
> > would be great for the Apache Cassandra PMC and community to reply as
> well.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Chris
> > >
> > >
> > >> On 2016-11-04 10:14 (-0700), Michael Kjellman <
> > mkjellman@internalcircle.com> wrote:
> > >> @Chris: instead of promoting the arguing going on on this thread could
> > you please help lead by example and reply to Kelly's questions in her
> > email? Thanks.
> > >>
> > >> I don't enjoy watching a community I care about continue to explode in
> > front of my eyes â~¹ï¸
> > >>
> > >> best,
> > >> kjellman
> > >>
> > >> Sent from my iPhone
> > >>
> > >>> On Nov 4, 2016, at 10:10 AM, Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> I have apmail karma and can add moderators.
> > >>>
> > >>> Jason I can add you - please confirm you would like to be added. Did
> > you file the ticket - if so point me to it. If you haven't yet, no
> worries
> > I can still add you. Let me know. Thanks.
> > >>>
> > >>>> On 2016-11-04 09:54 (-0700), Jason Brown <ja...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >>>> Gary,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I've just started looking into the moderator component due to this
> > thread;
> > >>>> I admit I did not know about it before (my fault). Yes, I would like
> > to be
> > >>>> added. Apparently, I need to file an INFRA ticket (as per
> > >>>> https://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mailing-list-moderators
> ),
> > which
> > >>>> I will do in the next few minutes.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> -Jason
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Gary Dusbabek <gdusbabek@gmail.com
> >
> > wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the only one with moderator privs.
> > Any other
> > >>>>> committer/PMCs interested?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Sorry, it's a chore to begin with and I've been traveling this
> week.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Gary.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Chris Mattmann <
> mattmann@apache.org>
> > >>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> Hi Folks,
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying to
> > figure
> > >>>>>> out if it's in moderation.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Can the moderators speak up?
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Cheers,
> > >>>>>> Chris
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>
> >
>

Re: Moderation

[Jeff Beck <be...@gmail.com>]

Is there an easy place to get up to speed on all the ASF terms? Infra
Karma, apmail, etc... I feel behind on understanding what is being talked
about here.

Jeff

On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 12:31 PM Michael Kjellman <
mkjellman@internalcircle.com> wrote:

> Thank you Chris.
>
> I have just replied to her email myself.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Nov 4, 2016, at 10:24 AM, Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > I'm sorry that you feel I'm promoting the arguing. The point of this
> thread was a simple request - moderate the email. I suspected that there
> weren't enough moderators but didn't spend the time to check. Honestly this
> is the Apache Cassandra PMC's job to maintain a healthy set of moderators,
> ideally in diverse timezones. Some may not feel 12 hours is a long time. I
> can only provide answers from most of the other Apache communities I
> participate in (Tika, Nutch, OODT, Hadoop, Solr/Lucene, Incubator, etc.)
> and in those communities, that *is* a long time. That said, this was also
> elevated because I saw someone with real questions asking them on Twitter
> and not on ASF lists pertaining to the projects (Yes there was also
> denigrating statements about both DataStax and ASF in there too). So,
> regarding that, the grown up thing to do (and honestly the "Apache" thing
> to do) is to bring the conversation on list, and talk, rather than sound
> off in 25+ different mediums.
> >
> > Now we've added a least one more moderator, which will help the root of
> the problem. And Kelly's email is on list. I will try and reply with my
> knowledge as a concerned ASF member first, and Board Member second. It
> would be great for the Apache Cassandra PMC and community to reply as well.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >> On 2016-11-04 10:14 (-0700), Michael Kjellman <
> mkjellman@internalcircle.com> wrote:
> >> @Chris: instead of promoting the arguing going on on this thread could
> you please help lead by example and reply to Kelly's questions in her
> email? Thanks.
> >>
> >> I don't enjoy watching a community I care about continue to explode in
> front of my eyes â~¹ï¸
> >>
> >> best,
> >> kjellman
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >>> On Nov 4, 2016, at 10:10 AM, Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I have apmail karma and can add moderators.
> >>>
> >>> Jason I can add you - please confirm you would like to be added. Did
> you file the ticket - if so point me to it. If you haven't yet, no worries
> I can still add you. Let me know. Thanks.
> >>>
> >>>> On 2016-11-04 09:54 (-0700), Jason Brown <ja...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>> Gary,
> >>>>
> >>>> I've just started looking into the moderator component due to this
> thread;
> >>>> I admit I did not know about it before (my fault). Yes, I would like
> to be
> >>>> added. Apparently, I need to file an INFRA ticket (as per
> >>>> https://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mailing-list-moderators),
> which
> >>>> I will do in the next few minutes.
> >>>>
> >>>> -Jason
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Gary Dusbabek <gd...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the only one with moderator privs.
> Any other
> >>>>> committer/PMCs interested?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sorry, it's a chore to begin with and I've been traveling this week.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Gary.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Hi Folks,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying to
> figure
> >>>>>> out if it's in moderation.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Can the moderators speak up?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>> Chris
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
>

Re: Moderation

[Michael Kjellman <mk...@internalcircle.com>]

Thank you Chris. 

I have just replied to her email myself.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 4, 2016, at 10:24 AM, Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
> 
> I'm sorry that you feel I'm promoting the arguing. The point of this thread was a simple request - moderate the email. I suspected that there weren't enough moderators but didn't spend the time to check. Honestly this is the Apache Cassandra PMC's job to maintain a healthy set of moderators, ideally in diverse timezones. Some may not feel 12 hours is a long time. I can only provide answers from most of the other Apache communities I participate in (Tika, Nutch, OODT, Hadoop, Solr/Lucene, Incubator, etc.) and in those communities, that *is* a long time. That said, this was also elevated because I saw someone with real questions asking them on Twitter and not on ASF lists pertaining to the projects (Yes there was also denigrating statements about both DataStax and ASF in there too). So, regarding that, the grown up thing to do (and honestly the "Apache" thing to do) is to bring the conversation on list, and talk, rather than sound off in 25+ different mediums. 
> 
> Now we've added a least one more moderator, which will help the root of the problem. And Kelly's email is on list. I will try and reply with my knowledge as a concerned ASF member first, and Board Member second. It would be great for the Apache Cassandra PMC and community to reply as well.
> 
> Cheers,
> Chris
> 
> 
>> On 2016-11-04 10:14 (-0700), Michael Kjellman <mk...@internalcircle.com> wrote: 
>> @Chris: instead of promoting the arguing going on on this thread could you please help lead by example and reply to Kelly's questions in her email? Thanks. 
>> 
>> I don't enjoy watching a community I care about continue to explode in front of my eyes â~¹ï¸
>> 
>> best,
>> kjellman
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Nov 4, 2016, at 10:10 AM, Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I have apmail karma and can add moderators. 
>>> 
>>> Jason I can add you - please confirm you would like to be added. Did you file the ticket - if so point me to it. If you haven't yet, no worries I can still add you. Let me know. Thanks.
>>> 
>>>> On 2016-11-04 09:54 (-0700), Jason Brown <ja...@gmail.com> wrote: 
>>>> Gary,
>>>> 
>>>> I've just started looking into the moderator component due to this thread;
>>>> I admit I did not know about it before (my fault). Yes, I would like to be
>>>> added. Apparently, I need to file an INFRA ticket (as per
>>>> https://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mailing-list-moderators), which
>>>> I will do in the next few minutes.
>>>> 
>>>> -Jason
>>>> 
>>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Gary Dusbabek <gd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the only one with moderator privs. Any other
>>>>> committer/PMCs interested?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sorry, it's a chore to begin with and I've been traveling this week.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Gary.
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi Folks,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying to figure
>>>>>> out if it's in moderation.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Can the moderators speak up?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Chris
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>> 

Re: Moderation

[Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org>]

I'm sorry that you feel I'm promoting the arguing. The point of this thread was a simple request - moderate the email. I suspected that there weren't enough moderators but didn't spend the time to check. Honestly this is the Apache Cassandra PMC's job to maintain a healthy set of moderators, ideally in diverse timezones. Some may not feel 12 hours is a long time. I can only provide answers from most of the other Apache communities I participate in (Tika, Nutch, OODT, Hadoop, Solr/Lucene, Incubator, etc.) and in those communities, that *is* a long time. That said, this was also elevated because I saw someone with real questions asking them on Twitter and not on ASF lists pertaining to the projects (Yes there was also denigrating statements about both DataStax and ASF in there too). So, regarding that, the grown up thing to do (and honestly the "Apache" thing to do) is to bring the conversation on list, and talk, rather than sound off in 25+ different mediums. 

Now we've added a least one more moderator, which will help the root of the problem. And Kelly's email is on list. I will try and reply with my knowledge as a concerned ASF member first, and Board Member second. It would be great for the Apache Cassandra PMC and community to reply as well.

Cheers,
Chris


On 2016-11-04 10:14 (-0700), Michael Kjellman <mk...@internalcircle.com> wrote: 
> @Chris: instead of promoting the arguing going on on this thread could you please help lead by example and reply to Kelly's questions in her email? Thanks. 
> 
> I don't enjoy watching a community I care about continue to explode in front of my eyes \u2639\ufe0f
> 
> best,
> kjellman
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> > On Nov 4, 2016, at 10:10 AM, Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
> > 
> > I have apmail karma and can add moderators. 
> > 
> > Jason I can add you - please confirm you would like to be added. Did you file the ticket - if so point me to it. If you haven't yet, no worries I can still add you. Let me know. Thanks.
> > 
> >> On 2016-11-04 09:54 (-0700), Jason Brown <ja...@gmail.com> wrote: 
> >> Gary,
> >> 
> >> I've just started looking into the moderator component due to this thread;
> >> I admit I did not know about it before (my fault). Yes, I would like to be
> >> added. Apparently, I need to file an INFRA ticket (as per
> >> https://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mailing-list-moderators), which
> >> I will do in the next few minutes.
> >> 
> >> -Jason
> >> 
> >>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Gary Dusbabek <gd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the only one with moderator privs. Any other
> >>> committer/PMCs interested?
> >>> 
> >>> Sorry, it's a chore to begin with and I've been traveling this week.
> >>> 
> >>> Gary.
> >>> 
> >>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org>
> >>> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>>> Hi Folks,
> >>>> 
> >>>> Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying to figure
> >>>> out if it's in moderation.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Can the moderators speak up?
> >>>> 
> >>>> Cheers,
> >>>> Chris
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>> 
> >> 
> 

Re: Moderation

[Michael Kjellman <mk...@internalcircle.com>]

@Chris: instead of promoting the arguing going on on this thread could you please help lead by example and reply to Kelly's questions in her email? Thanks. 

I don't enjoy watching a community I care about continue to explode in front of my eyes ☹️

best,
kjellman

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 4, 2016, at 10:10 AM, Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
> 
> I have apmail karma and can add moderators. 
> 
> Jason I can add you - please confirm you would like to be added. Did you file the ticket - if so point me to it. If you haven't yet, no worries I can still add you. Let me know. Thanks.
> 
>> On 2016-11-04 09:54 (-0700), Jason Brown <ja...@gmail.com> wrote: 
>> Gary,
>> 
>> I've just started looking into the moderator component due to this thread;
>> I admit I did not know about it before (my fault). Yes, I would like to be
>> added. Apparently, I need to file an INFRA ticket (as per
>> https://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mailing-list-moderators), which
>> I will do in the next few minutes.
>> 
>> -Jason
>> 
>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Gary Dusbabek <gd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the only one with moderator privs. Any other
>>> committer/PMCs interested?
>>> 
>>> Sorry, it's a chore to begin with and I've been traveling this week.
>>> 
>>> Gary.
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Hi Folks,
>>>> 
>>>> Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying to figure
>>>> out if it's in moderation.
>>>> 
>>>> Can the moderators speak up?
>>>> 
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Chris
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>> 

Re: Moderation

[San Luoji <sa...@gmail.com>]

Reading this, all I can think of is this:
http://time.com/money/4436630/donald-trump-career-advice-apologies/

On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org> wrote:

> Hi Russ,
>
> Sorry that you feel that way. I’m happy to be the villain when it comes to
> protecting
> those same ideals you cite regarding Apache in your below thread. You see
> I’ve been
> around since 2004 and elected by the membership to the Board for the last
> three years
> based on merit, and contributions towards those ideals over a decade of
> the ASF.
> I’ve been around longer than Apache Cassandra and this community and fully
> intend
> for that to continue. My job is not to only care about Cassandra. It’s to
> ensure that the
> ASF is a vendor neutral ground for ALL of its projects. You see I actually
> understand and
> have read what’s required of me to serve the membership of the ASF and its
> communities.
> I take this VERY seriously. Perhaps more than you know.
>
> You see the other problem with your complaint about me – is that
> unfortunately you
> do not have a voice to act on that complaint. You won’t have a vote in the
> next Apache
> Board election. You won’t have a vote in the next Members election. And
> *that* is
> the rub. I wouldn’t even care if you did or not and you voted against me
> on the ballot.
> If the Apache Cassandra PMC or community cared enough about you or your
> contributions
> to the project, you would have been made a committer, or PMC member, long
> ago, and
> heck you would have even had a chance to become an ASF member where you
> could do
> more than simply voice your displeasure with my actions, you would be able
> to vote with
> your feet against my tyranny of trying to make this project’s management
> committee
> understand their responsibilities for the ASF. I don’t even consider your
> requests to have
> me vilified in front of the Board something that would disqualify you for
> membership in
> the PMC or committee. If you have been making contributions, even
> discussion threads,
> answering questions, etc., to the point of your prior emails including
> this one – why haven’t
> you been elected to have a binding voice within the project? Please ask
> yourself that.
>
> In fact, please ask yourself – what is a “Cassandra MVP” compared to a
> member of the
> ASF which is home to the project? Also please go look at all the people
> I’ve been privy and
> voted on granting membership to within the foundation since 2011, go look
> at some of the
> functioning and healthy projects that don’t have a problem with vendor
> neutrality at the
> ASF, and *then* come and talk to me about how my professional and
> character isn’t such
> to stand on the board of the ASF. Again, I’ll wait.
>
> If it’s a hostile request to ask that a potentially inflammatory Twitter
> discussion that I attempted
> to bring about to the *source of the project’s discussion here at the ASF*
> and for a mail summarizing
> that Twitter discussion to be moderated through within 12 hours, and
> for the PMC of an Apache project to understand its commitments regarding
> having
> geographically diverse moderators for their Apache lists; and if it’s a
> hostile request to
> ask that all members of the community including those non committers
> and/or PMC
> that take to Twitter to voice their concerns when they are not sure of
> even where the
> canonical discussion for the project is have a voice here on the canonical
> lists for the project
> then there is something fundamentally wrong with the community. I will
> assert again based
> on my reading of the facts including archives, code, discussions here and
> outside of the ASF, abuse
> of trademarks, vendor non-neutrality, tea leaves and the collective WHOLE
> of those things that my initial
> request to bring the conversation on list -  that was met with the usual
> random drive by vitriol and my follow
> up asking how in the bleeping world there were at least 3 emails
> questioning whether or not an email
> should be moderated though - was warranted.
>
> I state this as someone who has seen Apache projects come and go and will
> continue to see that, even ones at the same level of interest as Cassandra
> (and much
> much more too as well). If it’s hostile for a Board member to drive the
> discussions to
> the mailing list instead of outside sources, then my apologies for my
> hostility. You will
> continue to get that apology as I continue to do my job and what I signed
> up to do as an
> ASF board member in terms of maintaining that vendor neutrality,
> irrespective of whether
> or not people don’t like my directness, frankness, and discussion.
>
> Chris
>
> On 11/4/16, 1:09 PM, "Russell Bradberry" <rb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>        - ... we are arguing whether to f'ing moderate it through. Wow.
> Great
>        job.
>        - Do you think it's healthy to send emails trying to talk shit
> instead
>        of ...
>        - ... project? Or is Twitter the official list now? Go ahead, I'll
> wait.
>
>
>     Given your behavior and rhetoric on this thread, I believe you lack the
>     professionalism and character to be a board member of anything, let
> alone
>     representing the Apache Software Foundation and it's ideals. I've CC'd
> the
>     rest of the Apache board because I would like to formally complain
> about
>     your divisive rhetoric and overall unprofessional conduct within this
>     mailing list.
>
>     This list, and community, are made up of individuals and volunteers. I
>     believe, attacking them, even though you believe you may have been
>     attacked, detracts from the conversation and elevates tension in an
> already
>     tense community.  I encourage others to chime in if I am misreading
> here. I
>     personally feel that someone acting in a leadership capacity, such as a
>     board member, should be held to a higher standard of professionalism
> and
>     conduct when doing business; whether it is with their board member hat
> on
>     or not.  I would hate for it to be assumed that the entire Apache board
>     encourages, promotes, or even acts in this manner.
>
>     -Russ
>
>
>
>     On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 1:18 PM Mattmann, Chris A (3010) <
>     chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>
>     > Mark Thomas got it done ✅
>     >
>     > Sent from my iPhone
>     >
>     > > On Nov 4, 2016, at 10:13 AM, Jason Brown <ja...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>     > >
>     > > s/sis/is
>     > >
>     > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:12 AM, Jason Brown <
> jasedbrown@gmail.com>
>     > wrote:
>     > >>
>     > >> Chris,
>     > >>
>     > >> Yes, I would like to be added, and here sis the ticket I filed:
>     > >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-12858.
>     > >>
>     > >> Thanks,
>     > >>
>     > >> -Jason
>     > >>
>     > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Chris Mattmann <
> mattmann@apache.org>
>     > >> wrote:
>     > >>
>     > >>> I have apmail karma and can add moderators.
>     > >>>
>     > >>> Jason I can add you - please confirm you would like to be added.
> Did
>     > you
>     > >>> file the ticket - if so point me to it. If you haven't yet, no
> worries
>     > I
>     > >>> can still add you. Let me know. Thanks.
>     > >>>
>     > >>>> On 2016-11-04 09:54 (-0700), Jason Brown <ja...@gmail.com>
>     > wrote:
>     > >>>> Gary,
>     > >>>>
>     > >>>> I've just started looking into the moderator component due to
> this
>     > >>> thread;
>     > >>>> I admit I did not know about it before (my fault). Yes, I would
> like
>     > to
>     > >>> be
>     > >>>> added. Apparently, I need to file an INFRA ticket (as per
>     > >>>> https://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mailing-list-
> moderators),
>     > >>> which
>     > >>>> I will do in the next few minutes.
>     > >>>>
>     > >>>> -Jason
>     > >>>>
>     > >>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Gary Dusbabek <
> gdusbabek@gmail.com>
>     > >>> wrote:
>     > >>>>
>     > >>>>> I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the only one with moderator
> privs. Any
>     > >>> other
>     > >>>>> committer/PMCs interested?
>     > >>>>>
>     > >>>>> Sorry, it's a chore to begin with and I've been traveling this
> week.
>     > >>>>>
>     > >>>>> Gary.
>     > >>>>>
>     > >>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Chris Mattmann <
> mattmann@apache.org>
>     > >>>>> wrote:
>     > >>>>>
>     > >>>>>> Hi Folks,
>     > >>>>>>
>     > >>>>>> Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying
> to
>     > >>> figure
>     > >>>>>> out if it's in moderation.
>     > >>>>>>
>     > >>>>>> Can the moderators speak up?
>     > >>>>>>
>     > >>>>>> Cheers,
>     > >>>>>> Chris
>     > >>>>>>
>     > >>>>>>
>     > >>>>>
>     > >>>>
>     > >>>
>     > >>
>     > >>
>     >
>
>
>
>

Re: Moderation

[Isabel Drost-Fromm <is...@apache.org>]

On Mon, Nov 07, 2016 at 09:01:39AM +0000, Ross Gardler wrote:
> Because of the way we are structured from an operations point of view or is necessary to have s commit bit to be a PMC member. However, that doesn't mean one needs to commit code.
> 
> A good PMC member looks after the health of the community. They do not necessarily write code. We have foundation members who have never committed a line of code.

See also a recent discussion on this topic here:

https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/7b5f8b3475838c2312fcdac8cb8b88e5c2ac1a05e958d106c90a1fc8@%3Cdev.community.apache.org%3E

https://www.apache.org/foundation/getinvolved.html#become-a-committer


Cheers,
Isabel

Re: Moderation

[Benedict Elliott Smith <be...@apache.org>]

It was nothing but an expression of my belief that Chris' excuses for his
inappropriate behaviour were wholly inadequate.

This is not an isolated incident; it is a pattern of behaviour, and excuses
do not cut it.  Anything less than a wholesale acceptance of
inappropriateness, retraction, and commitment not to repeat this kind of
behaviour in future is insufficient.

Unlike you, I have no power, only words to express my disappointment in you
both.


On 6 November 2016 at 17:26, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:

> If this is your attempt to accept Chris' explanation, even if
> you don't agree with it, then you have not quite succeeded.
>
> If instead, this is your attempt to continue to heap fuel on
> a fire, and be just as aggressive as you paint others to be, then
> you have done quite well.
>
> I don't expect that others will be spending their time replying
> to your messages anymore, at least on list.
>
> > On Nov 6, 2016, at 11:19 AM, Benedict Elliott Smith <be...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > In summary: you claim to be someone with years of experience at the
> forefront of an organisation that conducts all of its business primarily
> over email.  In that time you have not learned to express yourself over
> email in a manner that is not incendiary to those reading it, nor offensive
> to the intended recipient.
> >
> > That sounds to me like you are openly disclaiming your suitability for
> the position of responsibility you currently hold.
> >
>
>

Re: Moderation

[Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>]

If this is your attempt to accept Chris' explanation, even if
you don't agree with it, then you have not quite succeeded.

If instead, this is your attempt to continue to heap fuel on
a fire, and be just as aggressive as you paint others to be, then
you have done quite well.

I don't expect that others will be spending their time replying
to your messages anymore, at least on list.

> On Nov 6, 2016, at 11:19 AM, Benedict Elliott Smith <be...@apache.org> wrote:
> 
> In summary: you claim to be someone with years of experience at the forefront of an organisation that conducts all of its business primarily over email.  In that time you have not learned to express yourself over email in a manner that is not incendiary to those reading it, nor offensive to the intended recipient.
> 
> That sounds to me like you are openly disclaiming your suitability for the position of responsibility you currently hold.
> 

Re: Moderation

[Benedict Elliott Smith <be...@apache.org>]

In summary: you claim to be someone with years of experience at the
forefront of an organisation that conducts all of its business primarily
over email.  In that time you have not learned to express yourself over
email in a manner that is not incendiary to those reading it, nor offensive
to the intended recipient.

That sounds to me like you are openly disclaiming your suitability for the
position of responsibility you currently hold.

On 6 November 2016 at 14:53, Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org> wrote:

> For the record, your breakdown of the email trying to decipher what I
> meant is not
> correct. It’s not your fault, but email doesn’t convey tone, nor do you
> know what I am
> thinking or what I was trying to say. In fact, I was actually saying the
> PMC wasn’t doing its job,
> because (as I stated to you months ago), you (and many other community
> members of
> Cassandra) *should* have a binding vote. It wasn’t discrediting to you to
> point out that
> you don’t have the PMC or committer credentials; it was an example trying
> to point out
> that you *should* have them. And that you clearly care about the project
> as I believe you
> have developed a book on the subject of Apache Cassandra a while back IIRC
> which in Tika,
> Nutch, OODT, and a number of other projects would have earned you the
> ability to have a
> direct say in those Apache projects. And a lot of others.
>
> It’s these systematic fracturing of the community under the guise of a
> single vendor who
> has stated that they care about Cassandra (note the omission of Apache),
> but by demonstration
> has shown they either don’t understand, or don’t care about the Apache
> part of the equation.
> That’s what caused me to become frustrated when the following sequence of
> events
> happened:
>
> 1. After the Board meeting Mark Thomas one of our Directors took point on
> engaging
> the Apache Cassandra PMC with some of the concerns brought up over the
> past 6
> months and the role I was filling there became a back seat for me.
> 2. I saw over the past few days on a Twitter feed retweeted by an ASF
> member that
> Kelly Sommers (whom I have never met in person and do not know previously)
> was asking
> questions and stating negative things about the ASF that I believed could
> be much better
> understood by bringing them here to the ASF mailing lists for Apache
> Cassandra. I suggested
> on Twitter that she bring her concerns to the Apache lists and told her
> which email address
> to send it to. Some of the same people that eventually came onto the
> thread were people
> who were communicating with her on Twitter – this was disappointing as
> they could have
> done the same thing, and suggested Kelly come to the lists, Apache
> Cassandra PMC or not.
> 3. After 12 hours I checked back with Kelly and the Twitter dialogue had
> continued with several
> ASF members and even some Board members getting involved. Again, I asked
> Kelly why talk
> there, and why not just talk to the email list which is the canonical home
> for Apache Cassandra?
> She told me she sent the mail the prior night.
> 4. So of course I checked (after having already guessed it was stuck in
> moderation) and yes it
> was. What ensued was both frustration by my part and also email
> conversation that was heated
> on both sides. I felt swiped on by a few emails where I had good
> intentions but I felt we were
> wasting time debating whether we *should* moderate something through –
> which to me was
> a clear answer (yes). Where I failed there was to recognize that the real
> answer was that the Apache
> Cassandra PMC did not have enough moderators and the people I was mostly
> going back and forth
> with were not the moderators of the mailing lists.
> 5. One positive thing that came from #4 was that at least there are more
> moderators now. I’m not sure
> the reason for the lack of geographically diverse moderators, but it’s
> definitely something the PMC should
> check from time to time. Not pointing fingers, simply identifying
> responsibility.
>
> In my emails I used the word “shi*t” and “f’ing”. I didn’t direct either
> of these words at anyone in particular.
> I used them as color in expressing my frustration. It happens from time to
> time. Sorry.
>
> The Cassandra MVP comment was also not a diss on you as much as it was me
> saying – ideally – I would hope that
> the Apache Cassandra MVP people promote the concept of their community
> leaders becoming “ASF members”,
> and that Cassandra MVPs are great – but secondary – to the
> responsibilities of the PMC to move towards ensuring
> its community understands the Apache Way.
>
> Russell and I have never met in person so he does not really know me and
> nor I him. So he doesn’t know some of
> these nuances that people would normally know having met each other in
> mediums besides email or electronically.
> Many of you do not know me either. I will conclude with saying that I
> realize many of the people here for Apache
> Cassandra have the best intentions for the project at heart. Please
> realize I do too. I care about the ASF and projects
> and it leads me to send TL;DR emails and/or to use passion in my words.
> That can lead to frustration and to other
> emotions.
>
> Thanks for listening.
>
> Cheers,
> Chris
>
>
>
> On 11/5/16, 3:16 PM, "Russell Bradberry" <rb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>     For the record, I never said anyone was attempting to make me “look
> bad”.  I simply stated that his method of argument was to discredit me.
> Below I will break down his response, as I see it, and as others who have
> messaged me off list see it as well:
>
>     “… You see I’ve been around since 2004 and elected by the membership
> to the Board for the last three years based on merit …”
>
>     Here he is showing his superiority by way of tenure, or merit.
>
>     “You see I actually understand…”
>
>     The use of the term “actually” in this sense is to provide an attack
> against me in an effort to prove that I do not understand.
>
>     “…unfortunately you do not have a voice …”
>
>     Again, this is a blatant attempt to discredit me and provide proof
> that my word is of no worth because I am not on the PMC, nor a committer.
>
>     “You won’t have a vote in the next Apache Board election.”
>
>     Again
>
>     “You won’t have a vote in the next Members election.”
>
>     Again
>
>     “why haven’t you been elected to have a binding voice within the
> project? Please ask yourself that”
>
>     This is either an attempt to discredit me, in that I have not done
> enough to be elected, or an attempt to state the PMC hasn’t been doing
> their job in recognizing my efforts.
>
>     “please ask yourself – what is a “Cassandra MVP” compared to a member
> of the ASF which is home to the project””
>
>     This is not only insinuating that MVP is less than being a member of
> the ASF, and because I was given the MVP title, that somehow I am less than
> as well. (for the record, I have not asked for the MVP title, it was
> awarded, and I do not think that it should have any effect on the project
> from an Apache standpoint. Quite simply put, it is just another bullet
> point on a resume)
>
>     “I’ve been privy and voted on granting membership to within the
> foundation since 2011”
>
>     More attempts to discredit me by showing tenure.
>
>     Literally, the first portion of the response was a campaign to
> discredit me in order to demonstrate his merit.  The rest of the email goes
> to defend a point that I did not make.
>
>     Again, I will assert that the complaints the board has are valid.
> Datastax may have overstepped bounds and, as a result, put the project and
> ASF at risk.  I am not an authority on the subject and have not been privy
> to the private messages between the board, PMC, and Datastax.  What I will
> say, is that the tone, vitriol, ad-hominem responses and other
> unprofessional conduct has caused a rift in this community.  Most of this
> is coming directly from the board, specifically Chris.  Furthermore, as
> Aleksey has pointed out, this occurs in the private lists as well.  This is
> a form of toxic-leadership and is proven to not only be ineffective, but
> also be directly harmful.  These issues can, and should, be resolved
> amicably.
>
>     Professionalism and Respect, if aren’t, should be of the core tenets
> of any foundation, especially one of the caliber of Apache.
>
>
>
>     On 11/5/16, 9:38 AM, "Mark Struberg" <st...@yahoo.de.INVALID>
> wrote:
>
>         Russel, I don't read that out of Chris' answer.
>         He just tried to show how community development might look like if
> done a bit more openly.
>
>         Do you mind going back to Chris' original reply and re-read it
> again?
>         I've not interpreted it as anyone trying to make you look bad. Au
> contraire!
>
>
>         txs and LieGrue,
>         strub
>
>
>
>
>
>         > On Saturday, 5 November 2016, 13:56, Russell Bradberry <
> rbradberry@gmail.com> wrote:
>         > > It seems that your tactic of argument is to discredit me at
> every level in order
>         > to show your superiority of sorts.  Let me set this straight, I
> am not
>         > attempting to say that I am an authority on ASF or that I know
> how things should
>         > be run.  I also was not attempting to vilify you in front of the
> board or vilify
>         > you in any way.  My complaint is that your rhetoric is
> unprofessional; and as a
>         > representative of the board the language you use is, plainly,
> casting a bad
>         > light on the ASF.
>         >
>         > I understand all of your concerns and was not attempting to
> minimize them in any
>         > way; they are legitimate concerns.  The way you are handling
> them is what I am
>         > concerned with and the tone you take is what I believe is
> helping divide the
>         > community.  Being the “villain” as you say is what is the
> problem.  If you cast
>         > yourself as the villain as a representative of the foundation
> you are then
>         > making the foundation look bad.
>         >
>         > Lastly, I may not have a vote, but I do have a voice.  Everyone
> in the community
>         > does and can be heard, if not then it isn’t much of a community
> at all. I
>         > wouldn’t have you voted off the board nor do I want you to be
> voted off the
>         > board, I have not enough information to make a sound decision in
> that regard.
>         >
>         > All I ask if for some common professionalism and courtesy,
> nothing more.
>         >
>         >
>         >
>         >
>         > On 11/4/16, 4:46 PM, "Chris Mattmann" <ma...@apache.org>
>         > wrote:
>         >
>         >     Hi Russ,
>         >
>         >     Sorry that you feel that way. I’m happy to be the villain
> when it comes to
>         > protecting
>         >     those same ideals you cite regarding Apache in your below
> thread. You see
>         > I’ve been
>         >     around since 2004 and elected by the membership to the Board
> for the last
>         > three years
>         >     based on merit, and contributions towards those ideals over
> a decade of the
>         > ASF.
>         >     I’ve been around longer than Apache Cassandra and this
> community and fully
>         > intend
>         >     for that to continue. My job is not to only care about
> Cassandra. It’s to
>         > ensure that the
>         >     ASF is a vendor neutral ground for ALL of its projects. You
> see I actually
>         > understand and
>         >     have read what’s required of me to serve the membership of
> the ASF and its
>         > communities.
>         >     I take this VERY seriously. Perhaps more than you know.
>         >
>         >     You see the other problem with your complaint about me – is
> that
>         > unfortunately you
>         >     do not have a voice to act on that complaint. You won’t have
> a vote in the
>         > next Apache
>         >     Board election. You won’t have a vote in the next Members
> election. And
>         > *that* is
>         >     the rub. I wouldn’t even care if you did or not and you
> voted against me on
>         > the ballot.
>         >     If the Apache Cassandra PMC or community cared enough about
> you or your
>         > contributions
>         >     to the project, you would have been made a committer, or PMC
> member, long
>         > ago, and
>         >     heck you would have even had a chance to become an ASF
> member where you
>         > could do
>         >     more than simply voice your displeasure with my actions, you
> would be able
>         > to vote with
>         >     your feet against my tyranny of trying to make this
> project’s management
>         > committee
>         >     understand their responsibilities for the ASF. I don’t even
> consider your
>         > requests to have
>         >     me vilified in front of the Board something that would
> disqualify you for
>         > membership in
>         >     the PMC or committee. If you have been making contributions,
> even discussion
>         > threads,
>         >     answering questions, etc., to the point of your prior emails
> including this
>         > one – why haven’t
>         >     you been elected to have a binding voice within the project?
> Please ask
>         > yourself that.
>         >
>         >     In fact, please ask yourself – what is a “Cassandra MVP”
> compared to a
>         > member of the
>         >     ASF which is home to the project? Also please go look at all
> the people I’ve
>         > been privy and
>         >     voted on granting membership to within the foundation since
> 2011, go look at
>         > some of the
>         >     functioning and healthy projects that don’t have a problem
> with vendor
>         > neutrality at the
>         >     ASF, and *then* come and talk to me about how my
> professional and character
>         > isn’t such
>         >     to stand on the board of the ASF. Again, I’ll wait.
>         >
>         >     If it’s a hostile request to ask that a potentially
> inflammatory Twitter
>         > discussion that I attempted
>         >     to bring about to the *source of the project’s discussion
> here at the ASF*
>         > and for a mail summarizing
>         >     that Twitter discussion to be moderated through within 12
> hours, and
>         >     for the PMC of an Apache project to understand its
> commitments regarding
>         > having
>         >     geographically diverse moderators for their Apache lists;
> and if it’s a
>         > hostile request to
>         >     ask that all members of the community including those non
> committers and/or
>         > PMC
>         >     that take to Twitter to voice their concerns when they are
> not sure of even
>         > where the
>         >     canonical discussion for the project is have a voice here on
> the canonical
>         > lists for the project
>         >     then there is something fundamentally wrong with the
> community. I will
>         > assert again based
>         >     on my reading of the facts including archives, code,
> discussions here and
>         > outside of the ASF, abuse
>         >     of trademarks, vendor non-neutrality, tea leaves and the
> collective WHOLE of
>         > those things that my initial
>         >     request to bring the conversation on list -  that was met
> with the usual
>         > random drive by vitriol and my follow
>         >     up asking how in the bleeping world there were at least 3
> emails questioning
>         > whether or not an email
>         >     should be moderated though - was warranted.
>         >
>         >     I state this as someone who has seen Apache projects come
> and go and will
>         >     continue to see that, even ones at the same level of
> interest as Cassandra
>         > (and much
>         >     much more too as well). If it’s hostile for a Board member
> to drive the
>         > discussions to
>         >     the mailing list instead of outside sources, then my
> apologies for my
>         > hostility. You will
>         >     continue to get that apology as I continue to do my job and
> what I signed up
>         > to do as an
>         >     ASF board member in terms of maintaining that vendor
> neutrality,
>         > irrespective of whether
>         >     or not people don’t like my directness, frankness, and
> discussion.
>         >
>         >     Chris
>         >
>         >     On 11/4/16, 1:09 PM, "Russell Bradberry"
>         > <rb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>         >
>         >            - ... we are arguing whether to f'ing moderate it
> through. Wow.
>         > Great
>         >            job.
>         >            - Do you think it's healthy to send emails trying to
> talk shit
>         > instead
>         >            of ...
>         >            - ... project? Or is Twitter the official list now?
> Go ahead,
>         > I'll wait.
>         >
>         >
>         >         Given your behavior and rhetoric on this thread, I
> believe you lack the
>         >         professionalism and character to be a board member of
> anything, let
>         > alone
>         >         representing the Apache Software Foundation and it's
> ideals.
>         > I've CC'd the
>         >         rest of the Apache board because I would like to
> formally complain about
>         >         your divisive rhetoric and overall unprofessional
> conduct within this
>         >         mailing list.
>         >
>         >         This list, and community, are made up of individuals and
> volunteers. I
>         >         believe, attacking them, even though you believe you may
> have been
>         >         attacked, detracts from the conversation and elevates
> tension in an
>         > already
>         >         tense community.  I encourage others to chime in if I am
> misreading
>         > here. I
>         >         personally feel that someone acting in a leadership
> capacity, such as a
>         >         board member, should be held to a higher standard of
> professionalism and
>         >         conduct when doing business; whether it is with their
> board member hat
>         > on
>         >         or not.  I would hate for it to be assumed that the
> entire Apache board
>         >         encourages, promotes, or even acts in this manner.
>         >
>         >         -Russ
>         >
>         >
>         >
>         >         On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 1:18 PM Mattmann, Chris A (3010) <
>         >         chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>         >
>         >         > Mark Thomas got it done ✅
>         >         >
>         >         > Sent from my iPhone
>         >         >
>         >         > > On Nov 4, 2016, at 10:13 AM, Jason Brown
>         > <ja...@gmail.com> wrote:
>         >         > >
>         >         > > s/sis/is
>         >         > >
>         >         > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:12 AM, Jason Brown
>         > <ja...@gmail.com>
>         >         > wrote:
>         >         > >>
>         >         > >> Chris,
>         >         > >>
>         >         > >> Yes, I would like to be added, and here sis the
> ticket I
>         > filed:
>         >         > >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-12858.
>         >         > >>
>         >         > >> Thanks,
>         >         > >>
>         >         > >> -Jason
>         >         > >>
>         >         > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Chris Mattmann
>         > <ma...@apache.org>
>         >         > >> wrote:
>         >         > >>
>         >         > >>> I have apmail karma and can add moderators.
>         >         > >>>
>         >         > >>> Jason I can add you - please confirm you would
> like to
>         > be added. Did
>         >         > you
>         >         > >>> file the ticket - if so point me to it. If you
>         > haven't yet, no worries
>         >         > I
>         >         > >>> can still add you. Let me know. Thanks.
>         >         > >>>
>         >         > >>>> On 2016-11-04 09:54 (-0700), Jason Brown
>         > <ja...@gmail.com>
>         >         > wrote:
>         >         > >>>> Gary,
>         >         > >>>>
>         >         > >>>> I've just started looking into the moderator
>         > component due to this
>         >         > >>> thread;
>         >         > >>>> I admit I did not know about it before (my fault).
>         > Yes, I would like
>         >         > to
>         >         > >>> be
>         >         > >>>> added. Apparently, I need to file an INFRA ticket
>         > (as per
>         >         > >>>>
>         > https://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mailing-list-
> moderators),
>         >         > >>> which
>         >         > >>>> I will do in the next few minutes.
>         >         > >>>>
>         >         > >>>> -Jason
>         >         > >>>>
>         >         > >>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Gary Dusbabek
>         > <gd...@gmail.com>
>         >         > >>> wrote:
>         >         > >>>>
>         >         > >>>>> I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the
>         > only one with moderator privs. Any
>         >         > >>> other
>         >         > >>>>> committer/PMCs interested?
>         >         > >>>>>
>         >         > >>>>> Sorry, it's a chore to begin with and
>         > I've been traveling this week.
>         >         > >>>>>
>         >         > >>>>> Gary.
>         >         > >>>>>
>         >         > >>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Chris Mattmann
>         > <ma...@apache.org>
>         >         > >>>>> wrote:
>         >         > >>>>>
>         >         > >>>>>> Hi Folks,
>         >         > >>>>>>
>         >         > >>>>>> Kelly Sommers sent a message to
>         > dev@cassandra and I'm trying to
>         >         > >>> figure
>         >         > >>>>>> out if it's in moderation.
>         >         > >>>>>>
>         >         > >>>>>> Can the moderators speak up?
>         >         > >>>>>>
>         >         > >>>>>> Cheers,
>         >         > >>>>>> Chris
>         >         > >>>>>>
>         >         > >>>>>>
>         >         > >>>>>
>         >         > >>>>
>         >         > >>>
>         >         > >>
>         >         > >>
>         >         >
>         >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: Moderation

[Ross Gardler <Ro...@microsoft.com>]

Because of the way we are structured from an operations point of view or is necessary to have s commit bit to be a PMC member. However, that doesn't mean one needs to commit code.

A good PMC member looks after the health of the community. They do not necessarily write code. We have foundation members who have never committed a line of code.

Ross

---
Twitter: @rgardler

_____________________________
From: Jonathan Haddad <jo...@jonhaddad.com>>
Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2016 11:47 PM
Subject: Re: Moderation
To: <bo...@apache.org>>, <de...@cassandra.apache.org>>


I took a look at https://www.apache.org/dev/pmc.html<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.apache.org%2Fdev%2Fpmc.html&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7C2da70d5eaa664954f23908d406e25a8c%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636141016635815181&sdata=jtEQOzhIeaFryiBg7hcjiiLmoSwdBUEdGnOgu23SpO4%3D&reserved=0>, and it doesn't seem to give any guidelines on who should be on the PMC.  My assumption has always been the most active committers become PMC members, but it sounds like that's not the case on other projects.  Is the process to be added to the PMC supposed to be the same everywhere, or is it up to the project?  Can you be on the PMC but not have commit access?

On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 5:04 AM Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org>> wrote:
Sorry one typo below:

Where I said:

“The Cassandra MVP comment was also not a diss on you as much as it was me saying – ideally – I would hope that
the Apache Cassandra MVP people promote the concept of their community leaders becoming “ASF members”,
and that Cassandra MVPs are great – but secondary – to the responsibilities of the PMC to move towards ensuring
its community understands the Apache Way.”

I meant to say:

“The Cassandra MVP comment was also not a diss on you as much as it was me saying – ideally – I would hope that
the Apache Cassandra *PMC* people promote the concept of their community leaders becoming “ASF members”,
and that Cassandra MVPs are great – but secondary – to the responsibilities of the PMC to move towards ensuring
its community understands the Apache Way.”

Thanks.

Cheers,
Chris


On 11/6/16, 6:53 AM, "Chris Mattmann" <ma...@apache.org>> wrote:

    For the record, your breakdown of the email trying to decipher what I meant is not
    correct. It’s not your fault, but email doesn’t convey tone, nor do you know what I am
    thinking or what I was trying to say. In fact, I was actually saying the PMC wasn’t doing its job,
    because (as I stated to you months ago), you (and many other community members of
    Cassandra) *should* have a binding vote. It wasn’t discrediting to you to point out that
    you don’t have the PMC or committer credentials; it was an example trying to point out
    that you *should* have them. And that you clearly care about the project as I believe you
    have developed a book on the subject of Apache Cassandra a while back IIRC which in Tika,
    Nutch, OODT, and a number of other projects would have earned you the ability to have a
    direct say in those Apache projects. And a lot of others.

    It’s these systematic fracturing of the community under the guise of a single vendor who
    has stated that they care about Cassandra (note the omission of Apache), but by demonstration
    has shown they either don’t understand, or don’t care about the Apache part of the equation.
    That’s what caused me to become frustrated when the following sequence of events
    happened:

    1. After the Board meeting Mark Thomas one of our Directors took point on engaging
    the Apache Cassandra PMC with some of the concerns brought up over the past 6
    months and the role I was filling there became a back seat for me.
    2. I saw over the past few days on a Twitter feed retweeted by an ASF member that
    Kelly Sommers (whom I have never met in person and do not know previously) was asking
    questions and stating negative things about the ASF that I believed could be much better
    understood by bringing them here to the ASF mailing lists for Apache Cassandra. I suggested
    on Twitter that she bring her concerns to the Apache lists and told her which email address
    to send it to. Some of the same people that eventually came onto the thread were people
    who were communicating with her on Twitter – this was disappointing as they could have
    done the same thing, and suggested Kelly come to the lists, Apache Cassandra PMC or not.
    3. After 12 hours I checked back with Kelly and the Twitter dialogue had continued with several
    ASF members and even some Board members getting involved. Again, I asked Kelly why talk
    there, and why not just talk to the email list which is the canonical home for Apache Cassandra?
    She told me she sent the mail the prior night.
    4. So of course I checked (after having already guessed it was stuck in moderation) and yes it
    was. What ensued was both frustration by my part and also email conversation that was heated
    on both sides. I felt swiped on by a few emails where I had good intentions but I felt we were
    wasting time debating whether we *should* moderate something through – which to me was
    a clear answer (yes). Where I failed there was to recognize that the real answer was that the Apache
    Cassandra PMC did not have enough moderators and the people I was mostly going back and forth
    with were not the moderators of the mailing lists.
    5. One positive thing that came from #4 was that at least there are more moderators now. I’m not sure
    the reason for the lack of geographically diverse moderators, but it’s definitely something the PMC should
    check from time to time. Not pointing fingers, simply identifying responsibility.

    In my emails I used the word “shi*t” and “f’ing”. I didn’t direct either of these words at anyone in particular.
    I used them as color in expressing my frustration. It happens from time to time. Sorry.

    The Cassandra MVP comment was also not a diss on you as much as it was me saying – ideally – I would hope that
    the Apache Cassandra MVP people promote the concept of their community leaders becoming “ASF members”,
    and that Cassandra MVPs are great – but secondary – to the responsibilities of the PMC to move towards ensuring
    its community understands the Apache Way.

    Russell and I have never met in person so he does not really know me and nor I him. So he doesn’t know some of
    these nuances that people would normally know having met each other in mediums besides email or electronically.
    Many of you do not know me either. I will conclude with saying that I realize many of the people here for Apache
    Cassandra have the best intentions for the project at heart. Please realize I do too. I care about the ASF and projects
    and it leads me to send TL;DR emails and/or to use passion in my words. That can lead to frustration and to other
    emotions.

    Thanks for listening.

    Cheers,
    Chris



    On 11/5/16, 3:16 PM, "Russell Bradberry" <rb...@gmail.com>> wrote:

        For the record, I never said anyone was attempting to make me “look bad”.  I simply stated that his method of argument was to discredit me.  Below I will break down his response, as I see it, and as others who have messaged me off list see it as well:

        “… You see I’ve been around since 2004 and elected by the membership to the Board for the last three years based on merit …”

        Here he is showing his superiority by way of tenure, or merit.

        “You see I actually understand…”

        The use of the term “actually” in this sense is to provide an attack against me in an effort to prove that I do not understand.

        “…unfortunately you do not have a voice …”

        Again, this is a blatant attempt to discredit me and provide proof that my word is of no worth because I am not on the PMC, nor a committer.

        “You won’t have a vote in the next Apache Board election.”

        Again

        “You won’t have a vote in the next Members election.”

        Again

        “why haven’t you been elected to have a binding voice within the project? Please ask yourself that”

        This is either an attempt to discredit me, in that I have not done enough to be elected, or an attempt to state the PMC hasn’t been doing their job in recognizing my efforts.

        “please ask yourself – what is a “Cassandra MVP” compared to a member of the ASF which is home to the project””

        This is not only insinuating that MVP is less than being a member of the ASF, and because I was given the MVP title, that somehow I am less than as well. (for the record, I have not asked for the MVP title, it was awarded, and I do not think that it should have any effect on the project from an Apache standpoint. Quite simply put, it is just another bullet point on a resume)

        “I’ve been privy and voted on granting membership to within the foundation since 2011”

        More attempts to discredit me by showing tenure.

        Literally, the first portion of the response was a campaign to discredit me in order to demonstrate his merit.  The rest of the email goes to defend a point that I did not make.

        Again, I will assert that the complaints the board has are valid.  Datastax may have overstepped bounds and, as a result, put the project and ASF at risk.  I am not an authority on the subject and have not been privy to the private messages between the board, PMC, and Datastax.  What I will say, is that the tone, vitriol, ad-hominem responses and other unprofessional conduct has caused a rift in this community.  Most of this is coming directly from the board, specifically Chris.  Furthermore, as Aleksey has pointed out, this occurs in the private lists as well.  This is a form of toxic-leadership and is proven to not only be ineffective, but also be directly harmful.  These issues can, and should, be resolved amicably.

        Professionalism and Respect, if aren’t, should be of the core tenets of any foundation, especially one of the caliber of Apache.



        On 11/5/16, 9:38 AM, "Mark Struberg" <st...@yahoo.de.INVALID>> wrote:

            Russel, I don't read that out of Chris' answer.
            He just tried to show how community development might look like if done a bit more openly.

            Do you mind going back to Chris' original reply and re-read it again?
            I've not interpreted it as anyone trying to make you look bad. Au contraire!


            txs and LieGrue,
            strub





            > On Saturday, 5 November 2016, 13:56, Russell Bradberry <rb...@gmail.com>> wrote:
            > > It seems that your tactic of argument is to discredit me at every level in order
            > to show your superiority of sorts.  Let me set this straight, I am not
            > attempting to say that I am an authority on ASF or that I know how things should
            > be run.  I also was not attempting to vilify you in front of the board or vilify
            > you in any way.  My complaint is that your rhetoric is unprofessional; and as a
            > representative of the board the language you use is, plainly, casting a bad
            > light on the ASF.
            >
            > I understand all of your concerns and was not attempting to minimize them in any
            > way; they are legitimate concerns.  The way you are handling them is what I am
            > concerned with and the tone you take is what I believe is helping divide the
            > community.  Being the “villain” as you say is what is the problem.  If you cast
            > yourself as the villain as a representative of the foundation you are then
            > making the foundation look bad.
            >
            > Lastly, I may not have a vote, but I do have a voice.  Everyone in the community
            > does and can be heard, if not then it isn’t much of a community at all. I
            > wouldn’t have you voted off the board nor do I want you to be voted off the
            > board, I have not enough information to make a sound decision in that regard.
            >
            > All I ask if for some common professionalism and courtesy, nothing more.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > On 11/4/16, 4:46 PM, "Chris Mattmann" <ma...@apache.org>>
            > wrote:
            >
            >     Hi Russ,
            >
            >     Sorry that you feel that way. I’m happy to be the villain when it comes to
            > protecting
            >     those same ideals you cite regarding Apache in your below thread. You see
            > I’ve been
            >     around since 2004 and elected by the membership to the Board for the last
            > three years
            >     based on merit, and contributions towards those ideals over a decade of the
            > ASF.
            >     I’ve been around longer than Apache Cassandra and this community and fully
            > intend
            >     for that to continue. My job is not to only care about Cassandra. It’s to
            > ensure that the
            >     ASF is a vendor neutral ground for ALL of its projects. You see I actually
            > understand and
            >     have read what’s required of me to serve the membership of the ASF and its
            > communities.
            >     I take this VERY seriously. Perhaps more than you know.
            >
            >     You see the other problem with your complaint about me – is that
            > unfortunately you
            >     do not have a voice to act on that complaint. You won’t have a vote in the
            > next Apache
            >     Board election. You won’t have a vote in the next Members election. And
            > *that* is
            >     the rub. I wouldn’t even care if you did or not and you voted against me on
            > the ballot.
            >     If the Apache Cassandra PMC or community cared enough about you or your
            > contributions
            >     to the project, you would have been made a committer, or PMC member, long
            > ago, and
            >     heck you would have even had a chance to become an ASF member where you
            > could do
            >     more than simply voice your displeasure with my actions, you would be able
            > to vote with
            >     your feet against my tyranny of trying to make this project’s management
            > committee
            >     understand their responsibilities for the ASF. I don’t even consider your
            > requests to have
            >     me vilified in front of the Board something that would disqualify you for
            > membership in
            >     the PMC or committee. If you have been making contributions, even discussion
            > threads,
            >     answering questions, etc., to the point of your prior emails including this
            > one – why haven’t
            >     you been elected to have a binding voice within the project? Please ask
            > yourself that.
            >
            >     In fact, please ask yourself – what is a “Cassandra MVP” compared to a
            > member of the
            >     ASF which is home to the project? Also please go look at all the people I’ve
            > been privy and
            >     voted on granting membership to within the foundation since 2011, go look at
            > some of the
            >     functioning and healthy projects that don’t have a problem with vendor
            > neutrality at the
            >     ASF, and *then* come and talk to me about how my professional and character
            > isn’t such
            >     to stand on the board of the ASF. Again, I’ll wait.
            >
            >     If it’s a hostile request to ask that a potentially inflammatory Twitter
            > discussion that I attempted
            >     to bring about to the *source of the project’s discussion here at the ASF*
            > and for a mail summarizing
            >     that Twitter discussion to be moderated through within 12 hours, and
            >     for the PMC of an Apache project to understand its commitments regarding
            > having
            >     geographically diverse moderators for their Apache lists; and if it’s a
            > hostile request to
            >     ask that all members of the community including those non committers and/or
            > PMC
            >     that take to Twitter to voice their concerns when they are not sure of even
            > where the
            >     canonical discussion for the project is have a voice here on the canonical
            > lists for the project
            >     then there is something fundamentally wrong with the community. I will
            > assert again based
            >     on my reading of the facts including archives, code, discussions here and
            > outside of the ASF, abuse
            >     of trademarks, vendor non-neutrality, tea leaves and the collective WHOLE of
            > those things that my initial
            >     request to bring the conversation on list -  that was met with the usual
            > random drive by vitriol and my follow
            >     up asking how in the bleeping world there were at least 3 emails questioning
            > whether or not an email
            >     should be moderated though - was warranted.
            >
            >     I state this as someone who has seen Apache projects come and go and will
            >     continue to see that, even ones at the same level of interest as Cassandra
            > (and much
            >     much more too as well). If it’s hostile for a Board member to drive the
            > discussions to
            >     the mailing list instead of outside sources, then my apologies for my
            > hostility. You will
            >     continue to get that apology as I continue to do my job and what I signed up
            > to do as an
            >     ASF board member in terms of maintaining that vendor neutrality,
            > irrespective of whether
            >     or not people don’t like my directness, frankness, and discussion.
            >
            >     Chris
            >
            >     On 11/4/16, 1:09 PM, "Russell Bradberry"
            > <rb...@gmail.com>> wrote:
            >
            >            - ... we are arguing whether to f'ing moderate it through. Wow.
            > Great
            >            job.
            >            - Do you think it's healthy to send emails trying to talk shit
            > instead
            >            of ...
            >            - ... project? Or is Twitter the official list now? Go ahead,
            > I'll wait.
            >
            >
            >         Given your behavior and rhetoric on this thread, I believe you lack the
            >         professionalism and character to be a board member of anything, let
            > alone
            >         representing the Apache Software Foundation and it's ideals.
            > I've CC'd the
            >         rest of the Apache board because I would like to formally complain about
            >         your divisive rhetoric and overall unprofessional conduct within this
            >         mailing list.
            >
            >         This list, and community, are made up of individuals and volunteers. I
            >         believe, attacking them, even though you believe you may have been
            >         attacked, detracts from the conversation and elevates tension in an
            > already
            >         tense community.  I encourage others to chime in if I am misreading
            > here. I
            >         personally feel that someone acting in a leadership capacity, such as a
            >         board member, should be held to a higher standard of professionalism and
            >         conduct when doing business; whether it is with their board member hat
            > on
            >         or not.  I would hate for it to be assumed that the entire Apache board
            >         encourages, promotes, or even acts in this manner.
            >
            >         -Russ
            >
            >
            >
            >         On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 1:18 PM Mattmann, Chris A (3010) <
            >         chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov<ma...@jpl.nasa.gov>> wrote:
            >
            >         > Mark Thomas got it done ✅
            >         >
            >         > Sent from my iPhone
            >         >
            >         > > On Nov 4, 2016, at 10:13 AM, Jason Brown
            > <ja...@gmail.com>> wrote:
            >         > >
            >         > > s/sis/is
            >         > >
            >         > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:12 AM, Jason Brown
            > <ja...@gmail.com>>
            >         > wrote:
            >         > >>
            >         > >> Chris,
            >         > >>
            >         > >> Yes, I would like to be added, and here sis the ticket I
            > filed:
            >         > >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-12858<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fissues.apache.org%2Fjira%2Fbrowse%2FINFRA-12858&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7C2da70d5eaa664954f23908d406e25a8c%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636141016635815181&sdata=7K0fZ5FiMi55HG1Yd7MuNW%2F946HQof8ZvsFpDsGd0iE%3D&reserved=0>.
            >         > >>
            >         > >> Thanks,
            >         > >>
            >         > >> -Jason
            >         > >>
            >         > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Chris Mattmann
            > <ma...@apache.org>>
            >         > >> wrote:
            >         > >>
            >         > >>> I have apmail karma and can add moderators.
            >         > >>>
            >         > >>> Jason I can add you - please confirm you would like to
            > be added. Did
            >         > you
            >         > >>> file the ticket - if so point me to it. If you
            > haven't yet, no worries
            >         > I
            >         > >>> can still add you. Let me know. Thanks.
            >         > >>>
            >         > >>>> On 2016-11-04 09:54 (-0700), Jason Brown
            > <ja...@gmail.com>>
            >         > wrote:
            >         > >>>> Gary,
            >         > >>>>
            >         > >>>> I've just started looking into the moderator
            > component due to this
            >         > >>> thread;
            >         > >>>> I admit I did not know about it before (my fault).
            > Yes, I would like
            >         > to
            >         > >>> be
            >         > >>>> added. Apparently, I need to file an INFRA ticket
            > (as per
            >         > >>>>
            > https://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mailing-list-moderators<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.apache.org%2Fdev%2Fcommitters.html%23mailing-list-moderators&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7C2da70d5eaa664954f23908d406e25a8c%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636141016635815181&sdata=FwfVhxlnWN9GLCqfTMVqwMbg5pR89bd7tojX9Y9ZawY%3D&reserved=0>),
            >         > >>> which
            >         > >>>> I will do in the next few minutes.
            >         > >>>>
            >         > >>>> -Jason
            >         > >>>>
            >         > >>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Gary Dusbabek
            > <gd...@gmail.com>>
            >         > >>> wrote:
            >         > >>>>
            >         > >>>>> I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the
            > only one with moderator privs. Any
            >         > >>> other
            >         > >>>>> committer/PMCs interested?
            >         > >>>>>
            >         > >>>>> Sorry, it's a chore to begin with and
            > I've been traveling this week.
            >         > >>>>>
            >         > >>>>> Gary.
            >         > >>>>>
            >         > >>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Chris Mattmann
            > <ma...@apache.org>>
            >         > >>>>> wrote:
            >         > >>>>>
            >         > >>>>>> Hi Folks,
            >         > >>>>>>
            >         > >>>>>> Kelly Sommers sent a message to
            > dev@cassandra and I'm trying to
            >         > >>> figure
            >         > >>>>>> out if it's in moderation.
            >         > >>>>>>
            >         > >>>>>> Can the moderators speak up?
            >         > >>>>>>
            >         > >>>>>> Cheers,
            >         > >>>>>> Chris
            >         > >>>>>>
            >         > >>>>>>
            >         > >>>>>
            >         > >>>>
            >         > >>>
            >         > >>
            >         > >>
            >         >
            >

Re: Moderation

[Jeffrey Jirsa <jj...@gmail.com>]

PMC member is a committer by default (in the past, we’ve had difficulty
electing a member to the PMC without giving them commit access, so
electing a member to the PMC without granting them commit access is at the
very least nontrivial)

The process is the same for all top level projects - the PMC itself
nominates and elects new members. The current PMC is listed here:
https://projects.apache.org/committee.html?cassandra , if you’re curious
about who can nominate at this time.

Because it’s driven by nominations at the PMC level, the process is the
same, but the actual qualities that lead to a nomination likely vary
project to project. Ed mentioned that in Hive, they’ve had members on the
PMC that were primarily contributors to docs or had a single meaningful
change to the build system. That’s a project-by-project decision, but
generally, a diverse PMC helps ensure diversity in the community and helps
drive outside contributions, so diversity is encouraged.

Looking at the roster, most of the current PMC members were
nominated/elected because they’re active committers with deep internal
knowledge and a history of contributing, some are nominated/elected
because they’re active within the ASF and help us guide the project (I
like to imagine I was nominated in part due to past contributions, but
also my familiarity with the greater non-Datastax Cassandra community).



On 11/6/16, 9:22 AM, "Jonathan Haddad" <jo...@jonhaddad.com> wrote:

>I took a look at https://www.apache.org/dev/pmc.html, and it doesn't seem
>to give any guidelines on who should be on the PMC.  My assumption has
>always been the most active committers become PMC members, but it sounds
>like that's not the case on other projects.  Is the process to be added to
>the PMC supposed to be the same everywhere, or is it up to the project?
>Can you be on the PMC but not have commit access?
>
>On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 5:04 AM Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> Sorry one typo below:
>>
>> Where I said:
>>
>> “The Cassandra MVP comment was also not a diss on you as much as it was
>>me
>> saying – ideally – I would hope that
>> the Apache Cassandra MVP people promote the concept of their community
>> leaders becoming “ASF members”,
>> and that Cassandra MVPs are great – but secondary – to the
>> responsibilities of the PMC to move towards ensuring
>> its community understands the Apache Way.”
>>
>> I meant to say:
>>
>> “The Cassandra MVP comment was also not a diss on you as much as it was
>>me
>> saying – ideally – I would hope that
>> the Apache Cassandra *PMC* people promote the concept of their community
>> leaders becoming “ASF members”,
>> and that Cassandra MVPs are great – but secondary – to the
>> responsibilities of the PMC to move towards ensuring
>> its community understands the Apache Way.”
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Chris
>>
>>
>> On 11/6/16, 6:53 AM, "Chris Mattmann" <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>>     For the record, your breakdown of the email trying to decipher what
>>I
>> meant is not
>>     correct. It’s not your fault, but email doesn’t convey tone, nor do
>> you know what I am
>>     thinking or what I was trying to say. In fact, I was actually saying
>> the PMC wasn’t doing its job,
>>     because (as I stated to you months ago), you (and many other
>>community
>> members of
>>     Cassandra) *should* have a binding vote. It wasn’t discrediting to
>>you
>> to point out that
>>     you don’t have the PMC or committer credentials; it was an example
>> trying to point out
>>     that you *should* have them. And that you clearly care about the
>> project as I believe you
>>     have developed a book on the subject of Apache Cassandra a while
>>back
>> IIRC which in Tika,
>>     Nutch, OODT, and a number of other projects would have earned you
>>the
>> ability to have a
>>     direct say in those Apache projects. And a lot of others.
>>
>>     It’s these systematic fracturing of the community under the guise
>>of a
>> single vendor who
>>     has stated that they care about Cassandra (note the omission of
>> Apache), but by demonstration
>>     has shown they either don’t understand, or don’t care about the
>>Apache
>> part of the equation.
>>     That’s what caused me to become frustrated when the following
>>sequence
>> of events
>>     happened:
>>
>>     1. After the Board meeting Mark Thomas one of our Directors took
>>point
>> on engaging
>>     the Apache Cassandra PMC with some of the concerns brought up over
>>the
>> past 6
>>     months and the role I was filling there became a back seat for me.
>>     2. I saw over the past few days on a Twitter feed retweeted by an
>>ASF
>> member that
>>     Kelly Sommers (whom I have never met in person and do not know
>> previously) was asking
>>     questions and stating negative things about the ASF that I believed
>> could be much better
>>     understood by bringing them here to the ASF mailing lists for Apache
>> Cassandra. I suggested
>>     on Twitter that she bring her concerns to the Apache lists and told
>> her which email address
>>     to send it to. Some of the same people that eventually came onto the
>> thread were people
>>     who were communicating with her on Twitter – this was disappointing
>>as
>> they could have
>>     done the same thing, and suggested Kelly come to the lists, Apache
>> Cassandra PMC or not.
>>     3. After 12 hours I checked back with Kelly and the Twitter dialogue
>> had continued with several
>>     ASF members and even some Board members getting involved. Again, I
>> asked Kelly why talk
>>     there, and why not just talk to the email list which is the
>>canonical
>> home for Apache Cassandra?
>>     She told me she sent the mail the prior night.
>>     4. So of course I checked (after having already guessed it was stuck
>> in moderation) and yes it
>>     was. What ensued was both frustration by my part and also email
>> conversation that was heated
>>     on both sides. I felt swiped on by a few emails where I had good
>> intentions but I felt we were
>>     wasting time debating whether we *should* moderate something
>>through –
>> which to me was
>>     a clear answer (yes). Where I failed there was to recognize that the
>> real answer was that the Apache
>>     Cassandra PMC did not have enough moderators and the people I was
>> mostly going back and forth
>>     with were not the moderators of the mailing lists.
>>     5. One positive thing that came from #4 was that at least there are
>> more moderators now. I’m not sure
>>     the reason for the lack of geographically diverse moderators, but
>>it’s
>> definitely something the PMC should
>>     check from time to time. Not pointing fingers, simply identifying
>> responsibility.
>>
>>     In my emails I used the word “shi*t” and “f’ing”. I didn’t direct
>> either of these words at anyone in particular.
>>     I used them as color in expressing my frustration. It happens from
>> time to time. Sorry.
>>
>>     The Cassandra MVP comment was also not a diss on you as much as it
>>was
>> me saying – ideally – I would hope that
>>     the Apache Cassandra MVP people promote the concept of their
>>community
>> leaders becoming “ASF members”,
>>     and that Cassandra MVPs are great – but secondary – to the
>> responsibilities of the PMC to move towards ensuring
>>     its community understands the Apache Way.
>>
>>     Russell and I have never met in person so he does not really know me
>> and nor I him. So he doesn’t know some of
>>     these nuances that people would normally know having met each other
>>in
>> mediums besides email or electronically.
>>     Many of you do not know me either. I will conclude with saying that
>>I
>> realize many of the people here for Apache
>>     Cassandra have the best intentions for the project at heart. Please
>> realize I do too. I care about the ASF and projects
>>     and it leads me to send TL;DR emails and/or to use passion in my
>> words. That can lead to frustration and to other
>>     emotions.
>>
>>     Thanks for listening.
>>
>>     Cheers,
>>     Chris
>>
>>
>>
>>     On 11/5/16, 3:16 PM, "Russell Bradberry" <rb...@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>         For the record, I never said anyone was attempting to make me
>> “look bad”.  I simply stated that his method of argument was to
>>discredit
>> me.  Below I will break down his response, as I see it, and as others
>>who
>> have messaged me off list see it as well:
>>
>>         “… You see I’ve been around since 2004 and elected by the
>> membership to the Board for the last three years based on merit …”
>>
>>         Here he is showing his superiority by way of tenure, or merit.
>>
>>         “You see I actually understand…”
>>
>>         The use of the term “actually” in this sense is to provide an
>> attack against me in an effort to prove that I do not understand.
>>
>>         “…unfortunately you do not have a voice …”
>>
>>         Again, this is a blatant attempt to discredit me and provide
>>proof
>> that my word is of no worth because I am not on the PMC, nor a
>>committer.
>>
>>         “You won’t have a vote in the next Apache Board election.”
>>
>>         Again
>>
>>         “You won’t have a vote in the next Members election.”
>>
>>         Again
>>
>>         “why haven’t you been elected to have a binding voice within the
>> project? Please ask yourself that”
>>
>>         This is either an attempt to discredit me, in that I have not
>>done
>> enough to be elected, or an attempt to state the PMC hasn’t been doing
>> their job in recognizing my efforts.
>>
>>         “please ask yourself – what is a “Cassandra MVP” compared to a
>> member of the ASF which is home to the project””
>>
>>         This is not only insinuating that MVP is less than being a
>>member
>> of the ASF, and because I was given the MVP title, that somehow I am
>>less
>> than as well. (for the record, I have not asked for the MVP title, it
>>was
>> awarded, and I do not think that it should have any effect on the
>>project
>> from an Apache standpoint. Quite simply put, it is just another bullet
>> point on a resume)
>>
>>         “I’ve been privy and voted on granting membership to within the
>> foundation since 2011”
>>
>>         More attempts to discredit me by showing tenure.
>>
>>         Literally, the first portion of the response was a campaign to
>> discredit me in order to demonstrate his merit.  The rest of the email
>>goes
>> to defend a point that I did not make.
>>
>>         Again, I will assert that the complaints the board has are
>>valid.
>> Datastax may have overstepped bounds and, as a result, put the project
>>and
>> ASF at risk.  I am not an authority on the subject and have not been
>>privy
>> to the private messages between the board, PMC, and Datastax.  What I
>>will
>> say, is that the tone, vitriol, ad-hominem responses and other
>> unprofessional conduct has caused a rift in this community.  Most of
>>this
>> is coming directly from the board, specifically Chris.  Furthermore, as
>> Aleksey has pointed out, this occurs in the private lists as well.
>>This is
>> a form of toxic-leadership and is proven to not only be ineffective, but
>> also be directly harmful.  These issues can, and should, be resolved
>> amicably.
>>
>>         Professionalism and Respect, if aren’t, should be of the core
>> tenets of any foundation, especially one of the caliber of Apache.
>>
>>
>>
>>         On 11/5/16, 9:38 AM, "Mark Struberg" <st...@yahoo.de.INVALID>
>> wrote:
>>
>>             Russel, I don't read that out of Chris' answer.
>>             He just tried to show how community development might look
>> like if done a bit more openly.
>>
>>             Do you mind going back to Chris' original reply and re-read
>>it
>> again?
>>             I've not interpreted it as anyone trying to make you look
>>bad.
>> Au contraire!
>>
>>
>>             txs and LieGrue,
>>             strub
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>             > On Saturday, 5 November 2016, 13:56, Russell Bradberry <
>> rbradberry@gmail.com> wrote:
>>             > > It seems that your tactic of argument is to discredit me
>> at every level in order
>>             > to show your superiority of sorts.  Let me set this
>> straight, I am not
>>             > attempting to say that I am an authority on ASF or that I
>> know how things should
>>             > be run.  I also was not attempting to vilify you in front
>>of
>> the board or vilify
>>             > you in any way.  My complaint is that your rhetoric is
>> unprofessional; and as a
>>             > representative of the board the language you use is,
>> plainly, casting a bad
>>             > light on the ASF.
>>             >
>>             > I understand all of your concerns and was not attempting
>>to
>> minimize them in any
>>             > way; they are legitimate concerns.  The way you are
>>handling
>> them is what I am
>>             > concerned with and the tone you take is what I believe is
>> helping divide the
>>             > community.  Being the “villain” as you say is what is the
>> problem.  If you cast
>>             > yourself as the villain as a representative of the
>> foundation you are then
>>             > making the foundation look bad.
>>             >
>>             > Lastly, I may not have a vote, but I do have a voice.
>> Everyone in the community
>>             > does and can be heard, if not then it isn’t much of a
>> community at all. I
>>             > wouldn’t have you voted off the board nor do I want you to
>> be voted off the
>>             > board, I have not enough information to make a sound
>> decision in that regard.
>>             >
>>             > All I ask if for some common professionalism and courtesy,
>> nothing more.
>>             >
>>             >
>>             >
>>             >
>>             > On 11/4/16, 4:46 PM, "Chris Mattmann"
>><ma...@apache.org>
>>             > wrote:
>>             >
>>             >     Hi Russ,
>>             >
>>             >     Sorry that you feel that way. I’m happy to be the
>> villain when it comes to
>>             > protecting
>>             >     those same ideals you cite regarding Apache in your
>> below thread. You see
>>             > I’ve been
>>             >     around since 2004 and elected by the membership to the
>> Board for the last
>>             > three years
>>             >     based on merit, and contributions towards those ideals
>> over a decade of the
>>             > ASF.
>>             >     I’ve been around longer than Apache Cassandra and this
>> community and fully
>>             > intend
>>             >     for that to continue. My job is not to only care about
>> Cassandra. It’s to
>>             > ensure that the
>>             >     ASF is a vendor neutral ground for ALL of its
>>projects.
>> You see I actually
>>             > understand and
>>             >     have read what’s required of me to serve the
>>membership
>> of the ASF and its
>>             > communities.
>>             >     I take this VERY seriously. Perhaps more than you
>>know.
>>             >
>>             >     You see the other problem with your complaint about
>>me –
>> is that
>>             > unfortunately you
>>             >     do not have a voice to act on that complaint. You
>>won’t
>> have a vote in the
>>             > next Apache
>>             >     Board election. You won’t have a vote in the next
>> Members election. And
>>             > *that* is
>>             >     the rub. I wouldn’t even care if you did or not and
>>you
>> voted against me on
>>             > the ballot.
>>             >     If the Apache Cassandra PMC or community cared enough
>> about you or your
>>             > contributions
>>             >     to the project, you would have been made a committer,
>>or
>> PMC member, long
>>             > ago, and
>>             >     heck you would have even had a chance to become an ASF
>> member where you
>>             > could do
>>             >     more than simply voice your displeasure with my
>>actions,
>> you would be able
>>             > to vote with
>>             >     your feet against my tyranny of trying to make this
>> project’s management
>>             > committee
>>             >     understand their responsibilities for the ASF. I don’t
>> even consider your
>>             > requests to have
>>             >     me vilified in front of the Board something that would
>> disqualify you for
>>             > membership in
>>             >     the PMC or committee. If you have been making
>> contributions, even discussion
>>             > threads,
>>             >     answering questions, etc., to the point of your prior
>> emails including this
>>             > one – why haven’t
>>             >     you been elected to have a binding voice within the
>> project? Please ask
>>             > yourself that.
>>             >
>>             >     In fact, please ask yourself – what is a “Cassandra
>>MVP”
>> compared to a
>>             > member of the
>>             >     ASF which is home to the project? Also please go look
>>at
>> all the people I’ve
>>             > been privy and
>>             >     voted on granting membership to within the foundation
>> since 2011, go look at
>>             > some of the
>>             >     functioning and healthy projects that don’t have a
>> problem with vendor
>>             > neutrality at the
>>             >     ASF, and *then* come and talk to me about how my
>> professional and character
>>             > isn’t such
>>             >     to stand on the board of the ASF. Again, I’ll wait.
>>             >
>>             >     If it’s a hostile request to ask that a potentially
>> inflammatory Twitter
>>             > discussion that I attempted
>>             >     to bring about to the *source of the project’s
>> discussion here at the ASF*
>>             > and for a mail summarizing
>>             >     that Twitter discussion to be moderated through within
>> 12 hours, and
>>             >     for the PMC of an Apache project to understand its
>> commitments regarding
>>             > having
>>             >     geographically diverse moderators for their Apache
>> lists; and if it’s a
>>             > hostile request to
>>             >     ask that all members of the community including those
>> non committers and/or
>>             > PMC
>>             >     that take to Twitter to voice their concerns when they
>> are not sure of even
>>             > where the
>>             >     canonical discussion for the project is have a voice
>> here on the canonical
>>             > lists for the project
>>             >     then there is something fundamentally wrong with the
>> community. I will
>>             > assert again based
>>             >     on my reading of the facts including archives, code,
>> discussions here and
>>             > outside of the ASF, abuse
>>             >     of trademarks, vendor non-neutrality, tea leaves and
>>the
>> collective WHOLE of
>>             > those things that my initial
>>             >     request to bring the conversation on list -  that was
>> met with the usual
>>             > random drive by vitriol and my follow
>>             >     up asking how in the bleeping world there were at
>>least
>> 3 emails questioning
>>             > whether or not an email
>>             >     should be moderated though - was warranted.
>>             >
>>             >     I state this as someone who has seen Apache projects
>> come and go and will
>>             >     continue to see that, even ones at the same level of
>> interest as Cassandra
>>             > (and much
>>             >     much more too as well). If it’s hostile for a Board
>> member to drive the
>>             > discussions to
>>             >     the mailing list instead of outside sources, then my
>> apologies for my
>>             > hostility. You will
>>             >     continue to get that apology as I continue to do my
>>job
>> and what I signed up
>>             > to do as an
>>             >     ASF board member in terms of maintaining that vendor
>> neutrality,
>>             > irrespective of whether
>>             >     or not people don’t like my directness, frankness, and
>> discussion.
>>             >
>>             >     Chris
>>             >
>>             >     On 11/4/16, 1:09 PM, "Russell Bradberry"
>>             > <rb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>             >
>>             >            - ... we are arguing whether to f'ing moderate
>>it
>> through. Wow.
>>             > Great
>>             >            job.
>>             >            - Do you think it's healthy to send emails
>>trying
>> to talk shit
>>             > instead
>>             >            of ...
>>             >            - ... project? Or is Twitter the official list
>> now? Go ahead,
>>             > I'll wait.
>>             >
>>             >
>>             >         Given your behavior and rhetoric on this thread, I
>> believe you lack the
>>             >         professionalism and character to be a board member
>> of anything, let
>>             > alone
>>             >         representing the Apache Software Foundation and
>>it's
>> ideals.
>>             > I've CC'd the
>>             >         rest of the Apache board because I would like to
>> formally complain about
>>             >         your divisive rhetoric and overall unprofessional
>> conduct within this
>>             >         mailing list.
>>             >
>>             >         This list, and community, are made up of
>>individuals
>> and volunteers. I
>>             >         believe, attacking them, even though you believe
>>you
>> may have been
>>             >         attacked, detracts from the conversation and
>> elevates tension in an
>>             > already
>>             >         tense community.  I encourage others to chime in
>>if
>> I am misreading
>>             > here. I
>>             >         personally feel that someone acting in a
>>leadership
>> capacity, such as a
>>             >         board member, should be held to a higher standard
>>of
>> professionalism and
>>             >         conduct when doing business; whether it is with
>> their board member hat
>>             > on
>>             >         or not.  I would hate for it to be assumed that
>>the
>> entire Apache board
>>             >         encourages, promotes, or even acts in this manner.
>>             >
>>             >         -Russ
>>             >
>>             >
>>             >
>>             >         On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 1:18 PM Mattmann, Chris A
>> (3010) <
>>             >         chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>>             >
>>             >         > Mark Thomas got it done ✅
>>             >         >
>>             >         > Sent from my iPhone
>>             >         >
>>             >         > > On Nov 4, 2016, at 10:13 AM, Jason Brown
>>             > <ja...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>             >         > >
>>             >         > > s/sis/is
>>             >         > >
>>             >         > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:12 AM, Jason Brown
>>             > <ja...@gmail.com>
>>             >         > wrote:
>>             >         > >>
>>             >         > >> Chris,
>>             >         > >>
>>             >         > >> Yes, I would like to be added, and here sis
>>the
>> ticket I
>>             > filed:
>>             >         > >>
>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-12858.
>>             >         > >>
>>             >         > >> Thanks,
>>             >         > >>
>>             >         > >> -Jason
>>             >         > >>
>>             >         > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Chris
>>Mattmann
>>             > <ma...@apache.org>
>>             >         > >> wrote:
>>             >         > >>
>>             >         > >>> I have apmail karma and can add moderators.
>>             >         > >>>
>>             >         > >>> Jason I can add you - please confirm you
>>would
>> like to
>>             > be added. Did
>>             >         > you
>>             >         > >>> file the ticket - if so point me to it. If
>>you
>>             > haven't yet, no worries
>>             >         > I
>>             >         > >>> can still add you. Let me know. Thanks.
>>             >         > >>>
>>             >         > >>>> On 2016-11-04 09:54 (-0700), Jason Brown
>>             > <ja...@gmail.com>
>>             >         > wrote:
>>             >         > >>>> Gary,
>>             >         > >>>>
>>             >         > >>>> I've just started looking into the
>>moderator
>>             > component due to this
>>             >         > >>> thread;
>>             >         > >>>> I admit I did not know about it before (my
>> fault).
>>             > Yes, I would like
>>             >         > to
>>             >         > >>> be
>>             >         > >>>> added. Apparently, I need to file an INFRA
>> ticket
>>             > (as per
>>             >         > >>>>
>>             >
>> https://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mailing-list-moderators),
>>             >         > >>> which
>>             >         > >>>> I will do in the next few minutes.
>>             >         > >>>>
>>             >         > >>>> -Jason
>>             >         > >>>>
>>             >         > >>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Gary
>>Dusbabek
>>             > <gd...@gmail.com>
>>             >         > >>> wrote:
>>             >         > >>>>
>>             >         > >>>>> I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the
>>             > only one with moderator privs. Any
>>             >         > >>> other
>>             >         > >>>>> committer/PMCs interested?
>>             >         > >>>>>
>>             >         > >>>>> Sorry, it's a chore to begin with and
>>             > I've been traveling this week.
>>             >         > >>>>>
>>             >         > >>>>> Gary.
>>             >         > >>>>>
>>             >         > >>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Chris
>> Mattmann
>>             > <ma...@apache.org>
>>             >         > >>>>> wrote:
>>             >         > >>>>>
>>             >         > >>>>>> Hi Folks,
>>             >         > >>>>>>
>>             >         > >>>>>> Kelly Sommers sent a message to
>>             > dev@cassandra and I'm trying to
>>             >         > >>> figure
>>             >         > >>>>>> out if it's in moderation.
>>             >         > >>>>>>
>>             >         > >>>>>> Can the moderators speak up?
>>             >         > >>>>>>
>>             >         > >>>>>> Cheers,
>>             >         > >>>>>> Chris
>>             >         > >>>>>>
>>             >         > >>>>>>
>>             >         > >>>>>
>>             >         > >>>>
>>             >         > >>>
>>             >         > >>
>>             >         > >>
>>             >         >
>>             >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

Re: Moderation

[Jonathan Haddad <jo...@jonhaddad.com>]

I took a look at https://www.apache.org/dev/pmc.html, and it doesn't seem
to give any guidelines on who should be on the PMC.  My assumption has
always been the most active committers become PMC members, but it sounds
like that's not the case on other projects.  Is the process to be added to
the PMC supposed to be the same everywhere, or is it up to the project?
Can you be on the PMC but not have commit access?

On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 5:04 AM Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org> wrote:

> Sorry one typo below:
>
> Where I said:
>
> “The Cassandra MVP comment was also not a diss on you as much as it was me
> saying – ideally – I would hope that
> the Apache Cassandra MVP people promote the concept of their community
> leaders becoming “ASF members”,
> and that Cassandra MVPs are great – but secondary – to the
> responsibilities of the PMC to move towards ensuring
> its community understands the Apache Way.”
>
> I meant to say:
>
> “The Cassandra MVP comment was also not a diss on you as much as it was me
> saying – ideally – I would hope that
> the Apache Cassandra *PMC* people promote the concept of their community
> leaders becoming “ASF members”,
> and that Cassandra MVPs are great – but secondary – to the
> responsibilities of the PMC to move towards ensuring
> its community understands the Apache Way.”
>
> Thanks.
>
> Cheers,
> Chris
>
>
> On 11/6/16, 6:53 AM, "Chris Mattmann" <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>     For the record, your breakdown of the email trying to decipher what I
> meant is not
>     correct. It’s not your fault, but email doesn’t convey tone, nor do
> you know what I am
>     thinking or what I was trying to say. In fact, I was actually saying
> the PMC wasn’t doing its job,
>     because (as I stated to you months ago), you (and many other community
> members of
>     Cassandra) *should* have a binding vote. It wasn’t discrediting to you
> to point out that
>     you don’t have the PMC or committer credentials; it was an example
> trying to point out
>     that you *should* have them. And that you clearly care about the
> project as I believe you
>     have developed a book on the subject of Apache Cassandra a while back
> IIRC which in Tika,
>     Nutch, OODT, and a number of other projects would have earned you the
> ability to have a
>     direct say in those Apache projects. And a lot of others.
>
>     It’s these systematic fracturing of the community under the guise of a
> single vendor who
>     has stated that they care about Cassandra (note the omission of
> Apache), but by demonstration
>     has shown they either don’t understand, or don’t care about the Apache
> part of the equation.
>     That’s what caused me to become frustrated when the following sequence
> of events
>     happened:
>
>     1. After the Board meeting Mark Thomas one of our Directors took point
> on engaging
>     the Apache Cassandra PMC with some of the concerns brought up over the
> past 6
>     months and the role I was filling there became a back seat for me.
>     2. I saw over the past few days on a Twitter feed retweeted by an ASF
> member that
>     Kelly Sommers (whom I have never met in person and do not know
> previously) was asking
>     questions and stating negative things about the ASF that I believed
> could be much better
>     understood by bringing them here to the ASF mailing lists for Apache
> Cassandra. I suggested
>     on Twitter that she bring her concerns to the Apache lists and told
> her which email address
>     to send it to. Some of the same people that eventually came onto the
> thread were people
>     who were communicating with her on Twitter – this was disappointing as
> they could have
>     done the same thing, and suggested Kelly come to the lists, Apache
> Cassandra PMC or not.
>     3. After 12 hours I checked back with Kelly and the Twitter dialogue
> had continued with several
>     ASF members and even some Board members getting involved. Again, I
> asked Kelly why talk
>     there, and why not just talk to the email list which is the canonical
> home for Apache Cassandra?
>     She told me she sent the mail the prior night.
>     4. So of course I checked (after having already guessed it was stuck
> in moderation) and yes it
>     was. What ensued was both frustration by my part and also email
> conversation that was heated
>     on both sides. I felt swiped on by a few emails where I had good
> intentions but I felt we were
>     wasting time debating whether we *should* moderate something through –
> which to me was
>     a clear answer (yes). Where I failed there was to recognize that the
> real answer was that the Apache
>     Cassandra PMC did not have enough moderators and the people I was
> mostly going back and forth
>     with were not the moderators of the mailing lists.
>     5. One positive thing that came from #4 was that at least there are
> more moderators now. I’m not sure
>     the reason for the lack of geographically diverse moderators, but it’s
> definitely something the PMC should
>     check from time to time. Not pointing fingers, simply identifying
> responsibility.
>
>     In my emails I used the word “shi*t” and “f’ing”. I didn’t direct
> either of these words at anyone in particular.
>     I used them as color in expressing my frustration. It happens from
> time to time. Sorry.
>
>     The Cassandra MVP comment was also not a diss on you as much as it was
> me saying – ideally – I would hope that
>     the Apache Cassandra MVP people promote the concept of their community
> leaders becoming “ASF members”,
>     and that Cassandra MVPs are great – but secondary – to the
> responsibilities of the PMC to move towards ensuring
>     its community understands the Apache Way.
>
>     Russell and I have never met in person so he does not really know me
> and nor I him. So he doesn’t know some of
>     these nuances that people would normally know having met each other in
> mediums besides email or electronically.
>     Many of you do not know me either. I will conclude with saying that I
> realize many of the people here for Apache
>     Cassandra have the best intentions for the project at heart. Please
> realize I do too. I care about the ASF and projects
>     and it leads me to send TL;DR emails and/or to use passion in my
> words. That can lead to frustration and to other
>     emotions.
>
>     Thanks for listening.
>
>     Cheers,
>     Chris
>
>
>
>     On 11/5/16, 3:16 PM, "Russell Bradberry" <rb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>         For the record, I never said anyone was attempting to make me
> “look bad”.  I simply stated that his method of argument was to discredit
> me.  Below I will break down his response, as I see it, and as others who
> have messaged me off list see it as well:
>
>         “… You see I’ve been around since 2004 and elected by the
> membership to the Board for the last three years based on merit …”
>
>         Here he is showing his superiority by way of tenure, or merit.
>
>         “You see I actually understand…”
>
>         The use of the term “actually” in this sense is to provide an
> attack against me in an effort to prove that I do not understand.
>
>         “…unfortunately you do not have a voice …”
>
>         Again, this is a blatant attempt to discredit me and provide proof
> that my word is of no worth because I am not on the PMC, nor a committer.
>
>         “You won’t have a vote in the next Apache Board election.”
>
>         Again
>
>         “You won’t have a vote in the next Members election.”
>
>         Again
>
>         “why haven’t you been elected to have a binding voice within the
> project? Please ask yourself that”
>
>         This is either an attempt to discredit me, in that I have not done
> enough to be elected, or an attempt to state the PMC hasn’t been doing
> their job in recognizing my efforts.
>
>         “please ask yourself – what is a “Cassandra MVP” compared to a
> member of the ASF which is home to the project””
>
>         This is not only insinuating that MVP is less than being a member
> of the ASF, and because I was given the MVP title, that somehow I am less
> than as well. (for the record, I have not asked for the MVP title, it was
> awarded, and I do not think that it should have any effect on the project
> from an Apache standpoint. Quite simply put, it is just another bullet
> point on a resume)
>
>         “I’ve been privy and voted on granting membership to within the
> foundation since 2011”
>
>         More attempts to discredit me by showing tenure.
>
>         Literally, the first portion of the response was a campaign to
> discredit me in order to demonstrate his merit.  The rest of the email goes
> to defend a point that I did not make.
>
>         Again, I will assert that the complaints the board has are valid.
> Datastax may have overstepped bounds and, as a result, put the project and
> ASF at risk.  I am not an authority on the subject and have not been privy
> to the private messages between the board, PMC, and Datastax.  What I will
> say, is that the tone, vitriol, ad-hominem responses and other
> unprofessional conduct has caused a rift in this community.  Most of this
> is coming directly from the board, specifically Chris.  Furthermore, as
> Aleksey has pointed out, this occurs in the private lists as well.  This is
> a form of toxic-leadership and is proven to not only be ineffective, but
> also be directly harmful.  These issues can, and should, be resolved
> amicably.
>
>         Professionalism and Respect, if aren’t, should be of the core
> tenets of any foundation, especially one of the caliber of Apache.
>
>
>
>         On 11/5/16, 9:38 AM, "Mark Struberg" <st...@yahoo.de.INVALID>
> wrote:
>
>             Russel, I don't read that out of Chris' answer.
>             He just tried to show how community development might look
> like if done a bit more openly.
>
>             Do you mind going back to Chris' original reply and re-read it
> again?
>             I've not interpreted it as anyone trying to make you look bad.
> Au contraire!
>
>
>             txs and LieGrue,
>             strub
>
>
>
>
>
>             > On Saturday, 5 November 2016, 13:56, Russell Bradberry <
> rbradberry@gmail.com> wrote:
>             > > It seems that your tactic of argument is to discredit me
> at every level in order
>             > to show your superiority of sorts.  Let me set this
> straight, I am not
>             > attempting to say that I am an authority on ASF or that I
> know how things should
>             > be run.  I also was not attempting to vilify you in front of
> the board or vilify
>             > you in any way.  My complaint is that your rhetoric is
> unprofessional; and as a
>             > representative of the board the language you use is,
> plainly, casting a bad
>             > light on the ASF.
>             >
>             > I understand all of your concerns and was not attempting to
> minimize them in any
>             > way; they are legitimate concerns.  The way you are handling
> them is what I am
>             > concerned with and the tone you take is what I believe is
> helping divide the
>             > community.  Being the “villain” as you say is what is the
> problem.  If you cast
>             > yourself as the villain as a representative of the
> foundation you are then
>             > making the foundation look bad.
>             >
>             > Lastly, I may not have a vote, but I do have a voice.
> Everyone in the community
>             > does and can be heard, if not then it isn’t much of a
> community at all. I
>             > wouldn’t have you voted off the board nor do I want you to
> be voted off the
>             > board, I have not enough information to make a sound
> decision in that regard.
>             >
>             > All I ask if for some common professionalism and courtesy,
> nothing more.
>             >
>             >
>             >
>             >
>             > On 11/4/16, 4:46 PM, "Chris Mattmann" <ma...@apache.org>
>             > wrote:
>             >
>             >     Hi Russ,
>             >
>             >     Sorry that you feel that way. I’m happy to be the
> villain when it comes to
>             > protecting
>             >     those same ideals you cite regarding Apache in your
> below thread. You see
>             > I’ve been
>             >     around since 2004 and elected by the membership to the
> Board for the last
>             > three years
>             >     based on merit, and contributions towards those ideals
> over a decade of the
>             > ASF.
>             >     I’ve been around longer than Apache Cassandra and this
> community and fully
>             > intend
>             >     for that to continue. My job is not to only care about
> Cassandra. It’s to
>             > ensure that the
>             >     ASF is a vendor neutral ground for ALL of its projects.
> You see I actually
>             > understand and
>             >     have read what’s required of me to serve the membership
> of the ASF and its
>             > communities.
>             >     I take this VERY seriously. Perhaps more than you know.
>             >
>             >     You see the other problem with your complaint about me –
> is that
>             > unfortunately you
>             >     do not have a voice to act on that complaint. You won’t
> have a vote in the
>             > next Apache
>             >     Board election. You won’t have a vote in the next
> Members election. And
>             > *that* is
>             >     the rub. I wouldn’t even care if you did or not and you
> voted against me on
>             > the ballot.
>             >     If the Apache Cassandra PMC or community cared enough
> about you or your
>             > contributions
>             >     to the project, you would have been made a committer, or
> PMC member, long
>             > ago, and
>             >     heck you would have even had a chance to become an ASF
> member where you
>             > could do
>             >     more than simply voice your displeasure with my actions,
> you would be able
>             > to vote with
>             >     your feet against my tyranny of trying to make this
> project’s management
>             > committee
>             >     understand their responsibilities for the ASF. I don’t
> even consider your
>             > requests to have
>             >     me vilified in front of the Board something that would
> disqualify you for
>             > membership in
>             >     the PMC or committee. If you have been making
> contributions, even discussion
>             > threads,
>             >     answering questions, etc., to the point of your prior
> emails including this
>             > one – why haven’t
>             >     you been elected to have a binding voice within the
> project? Please ask
>             > yourself that.
>             >
>             >     In fact, please ask yourself – what is a “Cassandra MVP”
> compared to a
>             > member of the
>             >     ASF which is home to the project? Also please go look at
> all the people I’ve
>             > been privy and
>             >     voted on granting membership to within the foundation
> since 2011, go look at
>             > some of the
>             >     functioning and healthy projects that don’t have a
> problem with vendor
>             > neutrality at the
>             >     ASF, and *then* come and talk to me about how my
> professional and character
>             > isn’t such
>             >     to stand on the board of the ASF. Again, I’ll wait.
>             >
>             >     If it’s a hostile request to ask that a potentially
> inflammatory Twitter
>             > discussion that I attempted
>             >     to bring about to the *source of the project’s
> discussion here at the ASF*
>             > and for a mail summarizing
>             >     that Twitter discussion to be moderated through within
> 12 hours, and
>             >     for the PMC of an Apache project to understand its
> commitments regarding
>             > having
>             >     geographically diverse moderators for their Apache
> lists; and if it’s a
>             > hostile request to
>             >     ask that all members of the community including those
> non committers and/or
>             > PMC
>             >     that take to Twitter to voice their concerns when they
> are not sure of even
>             > where the
>             >     canonical discussion for the project is have a voice
> here on the canonical
>             > lists for the project
>             >     then there is something fundamentally wrong with the
> community. I will
>             > assert again based
>             >     on my reading of the facts including archives, code,
> discussions here and
>             > outside of the ASF, abuse
>             >     of trademarks, vendor non-neutrality, tea leaves and the
> collective WHOLE of
>             > those things that my initial
>             >     request to bring the conversation on list -  that was
> met with the usual
>             > random drive by vitriol and my follow
>             >     up asking how in the bleeping world there were at least
> 3 emails questioning
>             > whether or not an email
>             >     should be moderated though - was warranted.
>             >
>             >     I state this as someone who has seen Apache projects
> come and go and will
>             >     continue to see that, even ones at the same level of
> interest as Cassandra
>             > (and much
>             >     much more too as well). If it’s hostile for a Board
> member to drive the
>             > discussions to
>             >     the mailing list instead of outside sources, then my
> apologies for my
>             > hostility. You will
>             >     continue to get that apology as I continue to do my job
> and what I signed up
>             > to do as an
>             >     ASF board member in terms of maintaining that vendor
> neutrality,
>             > irrespective of whether
>             >     or not people don’t like my directness, frankness, and
> discussion.
>             >
>             >     Chris
>             >
>             >     On 11/4/16, 1:09 PM, "Russell Bradberry"
>             > <rb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>             >
>             >            - ... we are arguing whether to f'ing moderate it
> through. Wow.
>             > Great
>             >            job.
>             >            - Do you think it's healthy to send emails trying
> to talk shit
>             > instead
>             >            of ...
>             >            - ... project? Or is Twitter the official list
> now? Go ahead,
>             > I'll wait.
>             >
>             >
>             >         Given your behavior and rhetoric on this thread, I
> believe you lack the
>             >         professionalism and character to be a board member
> of anything, let
>             > alone
>             >         representing the Apache Software Foundation and it's
> ideals.
>             > I've CC'd the
>             >         rest of the Apache board because I would like to
> formally complain about
>             >         your divisive rhetoric and overall unprofessional
> conduct within this
>             >         mailing list.
>             >
>             >         This list, and community, are made up of individuals
> and volunteers. I
>             >         believe, attacking them, even though you believe you
> may have been
>             >         attacked, detracts from the conversation and
> elevates tension in an
>             > already
>             >         tense community.  I encourage others to chime in if
> I am misreading
>             > here. I
>             >         personally feel that someone acting in a leadership
> capacity, such as a
>             >         board member, should be held to a higher standard of
> professionalism and
>             >         conduct when doing business; whether it is with
> their board member hat
>             > on
>             >         or not.  I would hate for it to be assumed that the
> entire Apache board
>             >         encourages, promotes, or even acts in this manner.
>             >
>             >         -Russ
>             >
>             >
>             >
>             >         On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 1:18 PM Mattmann, Chris A
> (3010) <
>             >         chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>             >
>             >         > Mark Thomas got it done ✅
>             >         >
>             >         > Sent from my iPhone
>             >         >
>             >         > > On Nov 4, 2016, at 10:13 AM, Jason Brown
>             > <ja...@gmail.com> wrote:
>             >         > >
>             >         > > s/sis/is
>             >         > >
>             >         > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:12 AM, Jason Brown
>             > <ja...@gmail.com>
>             >         > wrote:
>             >         > >>
>             >         > >> Chris,
>             >         > >>
>             >         > >> Yes, I would like to be added, and here sis the
> ticket I
>             > filed:
>             >         > >>
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-12858.
>             >         > >>
>             >         > >> Thanks,
>             >         > >>
>             >         > >> -Jason
>             >         > >>
>             >         > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Chris Mattmann
>             > <ma...@apache.org>
>             >         > >> wrote:
>             >         > >>
>             >         > >>> I have apmail karma and can add moderators.
>             >         > >>>
>             >         > >>> Jason I can add you - please confirm you would
> like to
>             > be added. Did
>             >         > you
>             >         > >>> file the ticket - if so point me to it. If you
>             > haven't yet, no worries
>             >         > I
>             >         > >>> can still add you. Let me know. Thanks.
>             >         > >>>
>             >         > >>>> On 2016-11-04 09:54 (-0700), Jason Brown
>             > <ja...@gmail.com>
>             >         > wrote:
>             >         > >>>> Gary,
>             >         > >>>>
>             >         > >>>> I've just started looking into the moderator
>             > component due to this
>             >         > >>> thread;
>             >         > >>>> I admit I did not know about it before (my
> fault).
>             > Yes, I would like
>             >         > to
>             >         > >>> be
>             >         > >>>> added. Apparently, I need to file an INFRA
> ticket
>             > (as per
>             >         > >>>>
>             >
> https://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mailing-list-moderators),
>             >         > >>> which
>             >         > >>>> I will do in the next few minutes.
>             >         > >>>>
>             >         > >>>> -Jason
>             >         > >>>>
>             >         > >>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Gary Dusbabek
>             > <gd...@gmail.com>
>             >         > >>> wrote:
>             >         > >>>>
>             >         > >>>>> I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the
>             > only one with moderator privs. Any
>             >         > >>> other
>             >         > >>>>> committer/PMCs interested?
>             >         > >>>>>
>             >         > >>>>> Sorry, it's a chore to begin with and
>             > I've been traveling this week.
>             >         > >>>>>
>             >         > >>>>> Gary.
>             >         > >>>>>
>             >         > >>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Chris
> Mattmann
>             > <ma...@apache.org>
>             >         > >>>>> wrote:
>             >         > >>>>>
>             >         > >>>>>> Hi Folks,
>             >         > >>>>>>
>             >         > >>>>>> Kelly Sommers sent a message to
>             > dev@cassandra and I'm trying to
>             >         > >>> figure
>             >         > >>>>>> out if it's in moderation.
>             >         > >>>>>>
>             >         > >>>>>> Can the moderators speak up?
>             >         > >>>>>>
>             >         > >>>>>> Cheers,
>             >         > >>>>>> Chris
>             >         > >>>>>>
>             >         > >>>>>>
>             >         > >>>>>
>             >         > >>>>
>             >         > >>>
>             >         > >>
>             >         > >>
>             >         >
>             >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: Moderation

[Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org>]

Sorry one typo below:

Where I said:

“The Cassandra MVP comment was also not a diss on you as much as it was me saying – ideally – I would hope that
the Apache Cassandra MVP people promote the concept of their community leaders becoming “ASF members”,
and that Cassandra MVPs are great – but secondary – to the responsibilities of the PMC to move towards ensuring
its community understands the Apache Way.”

I meant to say:

“The Cassandra MVP comment was also not a diss on you as much as it was me saying – ideally – I would hope that
the Apache Cassandra *PMC* people promote the concept of their community leaders becoming “ASF members”,
and that Cassandra MVPs are great – but secondary – to the responsibilities of the PMC to move towards ensuring
its community understands the Apache Way.”

Thanks.

Cheers,
Chris


On 11/6/16, 6:53 AM, "Chris Mattmann" <ma...@apache.org> wrote:

    For the record, your breakdown of the email trying to decipher what I meant is not 
    correct. It’s not your fault, but email doesn’t convey tone, nor do you know what I am 
    thinking or what I was trying to say. In fact, I was actually saying the PMC wasn’t doing its job, 
    because (as I stated to you months ago), you (and many other community members of  
    Cassandra) *should* have a binding vote. It wasn’t discrediting to you to point out that 
    you don’t have the PMC or committer credentials; it was an example trying to point out 
    that you *should* have them. And that you clearly care about the project as I believe you 
    have developed a book on the subject of Apache Cassandra a while back IIRC which in Tika,
    Nutch, OODT, and a number of other projects would have earned you the ability to have a
    direct say in those Apache projects. And a lot of others.
    
    It’s these systematic fracturing of the community under the guise of a single vendor who
    has stated that they care about Cassandra (note the omission of Apache), but by demonstration
    has shown they either don’t understand, or don’t care about the Apache part of the equation.
    That’s what caused me to become frustrated when the following sequence of events
    happened:
    
    1. After the Board meeting Mark Thomas one of our Directors took point on engaging
    the Apache Cassandra PMC with some of the concerns brought up over the past 6
    months and the role I was filling there became a back seat for me. 
    2. I saw over the past few days on a Twitter feed retweeted by an ASF member that 
    Kelly Sommers (whom I have never met in person and do not know previously) was asking
    questions and stating negative things about the ASF that I believed could be much better
    understood by bringing them here to the ASF mailing lists for Apache Cassandra. I suggested
    on Twitter that she bring her concerns to the Apache lists and told her which email address
    to send it to. Some of the same people that eventually came onto the thread were people 
    who were communicating with her on Twitter – this was disappointing as they could have 
    done the same thing, and suggested Kelly come to the lists, Apache Cassandra PMC or not.
    3. After 12 hours I checked back with Kelly and the Twitter dialogue had continued with several
    ASF members and even some Board members getting involved. Again, I asked Kelly why talk
    there, and why not just talk to the email list which is the canonical home for Apache Cassandra?
    She told me she sent the mail the prior night. 
    4. So of course I checked (after having already guessed it was stuck in moderation) and yes it
    was. What ensued was both frustration by my part and also email conversation that was heated
    on both sides. I felt swiped on by a few emails where I had good intentions but I felt we were 
    wasting time debating whether we *should* moderate something through – which to me was
    a clear answer (yes). Where I failed there was to recognize that the real answer was that the Apache
    Cassandra PMC did not have enough moderators and the people I was mostly going back and forth
    with were not the moderators of the mailing lists. 
    5. One positive thing that came from #4 was that at least there are more moderators now. I’m not sure
    the reason for the lack of geographically diverse moderators, but it’s definitely something the PMC should
    check from time to time. Not pointing fingers, simply identifying responsibility. 
    
    In my emails I used the word “shi*t” and “f’ing”. I didn’t direct either of these words at anyone in particular.
    I used them as color in expressing my frustration. It happens from time to time. Sorry. 
    
    The Cassandra MVP comment was also not a diss on you as much as it was me saying – ideally – I would hope that
    the Apache Cassandra MVP people promote the concept of their community leaders becoming “ASF members”, 
    and that Cassandra MVPs are great – but secondary – to the responsibilities of the PMC to move towards ensuring
    its community understands the Apache Way. 
    
    Russell and I have never met in person so he does not really know me and nor I him. So he doesn’t know some of
    these nuances that people would normally know having met each other in mediums besides email or electronically.
    Many of you do not know me either. I will conclude with saying that I realize many of the people here for Apache
    Cassandra have the best intentions for the project at heart. Please realize I do too. I care about the ASF and projects
    and it leads me to send TL;DR emails and/or to use passion in my words. That can lead to frustration and to other
    emotions. 
    
    Thanks for listening. 
    
    Cheers,
    Chris
    
    
    
    On 11/5/16, 3:16 PM, "Russell Bradberry" <rb...@gmail.com> wrote:
    
        For the record, I never said anyone was attempting to make me “look bad”.  I simply stated that his method of argument was to discredit me.  Below I will break down his response, as I see it, and as others who have messaged me off list see it as well:
        
        “… You see I’ve been around since 2004 and elected by the membership to the Board for the last three years based on merit …”
        
        Here he is showing his superiority by way of tenure, or merit.
        
        “You see I actually understand…”
        
        The use of the term “actually” in this sense is to provide an attack against me in an effort to prove that I do not understand.
        
        “…unfortunately you do not have a voice …”
        
        Again, this is a blatant attempt to discredit me and provide proof that my word is of no worth because I am not on the PMC, nor a committer.
        
        “You won’t have a vote in the next Apache Board election.”
        
        Again
        
        “You won’t have a vote in the next Members election.”
        
        Again
        
        “why haven’t you been elected to have a binding voice within the project? Please ask yourself that”
        
        This is either an attempt to discredit me, in that I have not done enough to be elected, or an attempt to state the PMC hasn’t been doing their job in recognizing my efforts.
        
        “please ask yourself – what is a “Cassandra MVP” compared to a member of the ASF which is home to the project””
        
        This is not only insinuating that MVP is less than being a member of the ASF, and because I was given the MVP title, that somehow I am less than as well. (for the record, I have not asked for the MVP title, it was awarded, and I do not think that it should have any effect on the project from an Apache standpoint. Quite simply put, it is just another bullet point on a resume)
        
        “I’ve been privy and voted on granting membership to within the foundation since 2011”
        
        More attempts to discredit me by showing tenure.
        
        Literally, the first portion of the response was a campaign to discredit me in order to demonstrate his merit.  The rest of the email goes to defend a point that I did not make.  
        
        Again, I will assert that the complaints the board has are valid.  Datastax may have overstepped bounds and, as a result, put the project and ASF at risk.  I am not an authority on the subject and have not been privy to the private messages between the board, PMC, and Datastax.  What I will say, is that the tone, vitriol, ad-hominem responses and other unprofessional conduct has caused a rift in this community.  Most of this is coming directly from the board, specifically Chris.  Furthermore, as Aleksey has pointed out, this occurs in the private lists as well.  This is a form of toxic-leadership and is proven to not only be ineffective, but also be directly harmful.  These issues can, and should, be resolved amicably. 
        
        Professionalism and Respect, if aren’t, should be of the core tenets of any foundation, especially one of the caliber of Apache.
        
        
        
        On 11/5/16, 9:38 AM, "Mark Struberg" <st...@yahoo.de.INVALID> wrote:
        
            Russel, I don't read that out of Chris' answer.
            He just tried to show how community development might look like if done a bit more openly.
            
            Do you mind going back to Chris' original reply and re-read it again?
            I've not interpreted it as anyone trying to make you look bad. Au contraire!
            
            
            txs and LieGrue,
            strub
            
            
            
            
            
            > On Saturday, 5 November 2016, 13:56, Russell Bradberry <rb...@gmail.com> wrote:
            > > It seems that your tactic of argument is to discredit me at every level in order 
            > to show your superiority of sorts.  Let me set this straight, I am not 
            > attempting to say that I am an authority on ASF or that I know how things should 
            > be run.  I also was not attempting to vilify you in front of the board or vilify 
            > you in any way.  My complaint is that your rhetoric is unprofessional; and as a 
            > representative of the board the language you use is, plainly, casting a bad 
            > light on the ASF.
            > 
            > I understand all of your concerns and was not attempting to minimize them in any 
            > way; they are legitimate concerns.  The way you are handling them is what I am 
            > concerned with and the tone you take is what I believe is helping divide the 
            > community.  Being the “villain” as you say is what is the problem.  If you cast 
            > yourself as the villain as a representative of the foundation you are then 
            > making the foundation look bad.
            > 
            > Lastly, I may not have a vote, but I do have a voice.  Everyone in the community 
            > does and can be heard, if not then it isn’t much of a community at all. I 
            > wouldn’t have you voted off the board nor do I want you to be voted off the 
            > board, I have not enough information to make a sound decision in that regard.  
            > 
            > All I ask if for some common professionalism and courtesy, nothing more.
            > 
            > 
            > 
            > 
            > On 11/4/16, 4:46 PM, "Chris Mattmann" <ma...@apache.org> 
            > wrote:
            > 
            >     Hi Russ,
            >     
            >     Sorry that you feel that way. I’m happy to be the villain when it comes to 
            > protecting
            >     those same ideals you cite regarding Apache in your below thread. You see 
            > I’ve been
            >     around since 2004 and elected by the membership to the Board for the last 
            > three years
            >     based on merit, and contributions towards those ideals over a decade of the 
            > ASF. 
            >     I’ve been around longer than Apache Cassandra and this community and fully 
            > intend 
            >     for that to continue. My job is not to only care about Cassandra. It’s to 
            > ensure that the 
            >     ASF is a vendor neutral ground for ALL of its projects. You see I actually 
            > understand and 
            >     have read what’s required of me to serve the membership of the ASF and its 
            > communities. 
            >     I take this VERY seriously. Perhaps more than you know.
            >     
            >     You see the other problem with your complaint about me – is that 
            > unfortunately you
            >     do not have a voice to act on that complaint. You won’t have a vote in the 
            > next Apache
            >     Board election. You won’t have a vote in the next Members election. And 
            > *that* is
            >     the rub. I wouldn’t even care if you did or not and you voted against me on 
            > the ballot.
            >     If the Apache Cassandra PMC or community cared enough about you or your 
            > contributions
            >     to the project, you would have been made a committer, or PMC member, long 
            > ago, and
            >     heck you would have even had a chance to become an ASF member where you 
            > could do
            >     more than simply voice your displeasure with my actions, you would be able 
            > to vote with
            >     your feet against my tyranny of trying to make this project’s management 
            > committee 
            >     understand their responsibilities for the ASF. I don’t even consider your 
            > requests to have
            >     me vilified in front of the Board something that would disqualify you for 
            > membership in 
            >     the PMC or committee. If you have been making contributions, even discussion 
            > threads,
            >     answering questions, etc., to the point of your prior emails including this 
            > one – why haven’t
            >     you been elected to have a binding voice within the project? Please ask 
            > yourself that. 
            >     
            >     In fact, please ask yourself – what is a “Cassandra MVP” compared to a 
            > member of the 
            >     ASF which is home to the project? Also please go look at all the people I’ve 
            > been privy and 
            >     voted on granting membership to within the foundation since 2011, go look at 
            > some of the 
            >     functioning and healthy projects that don’t have a problem with vendor 
            > neutrality at the 
            >     ASF, and *then* come and talk to me about how my professional and character 
            > isn’t such 
            >     to stand on the board of the ASF. Again, I’ll wait.
            >     
            >     If it’s a hostile request to ask that a potentially inflammatory Twitter 
            > discussion that I attempted
            >     to bring about to the *source of the project’s discussion here at the ASF* 
            > and for a mail summarizing
            >     that Twitter discussion to be moderated through within 12 hours, and
            >     for the PMC of an Apache project to understand its commitments regarding 
            > having
            >     geographically diverse moderators for their Apache lists; and if it’s a 
            > hostile request to 
            >     ask that all members of the community including those non committers and/or 
            > PMC 
            >     that take to Twitter to voice their concerns when they are not sure of even 
            > where the 
            >     canonical discussion for the project is have a voice here on the canonical 
            > lists for the project
            >     then there is something fundamentally wrong with the community. I will 
            > assert again based 
            >     on my reading of the facts including archives, code, discussions here and 
            > outside of the ASF, abuse 
            >     of trademarks, vendor non-neutrality, tea leaves and the collective WHOLE of 
            > those things that my initial
            >     request to bring the conversation on list -  that was met with the usual 
            > random drive by vitriol and my follow
            >     up asking how in the bleeping world there were at least 3 emails questioning 
            > whether or not an email
            >     should be moderated though - was warranted. 
            >     
            >     I state this as someone who has seen Apache projects come and go and will 
            >     continue to see that, even ones at the same level of interest as Cassandra 
            > (and much 
            >     much more too as well). If it’s hostile for a Board member to drive the 
            > discussions to 
            >     the mailing list instead of outside sources, then my apologies for my 
            > hostility. You will
            >     continue to get that apology as I continue to do my job and what I signed up 
            > to do as an
            >     ASF board member in terms of maintaining that vendor neutrality, 
            > irrespective of whether
            >     or not people don’t like my directness, frankness, and discussion.
            >     
            >     Chris
            >     
            >     On 11/4/16, 1:09 PM, "Russell Bradberry" 
            > <rb...@gmail.com> wrote:
            >     
            >            - ... we are arguing whether to f'ing moderate it through. Wow. 
            > Great
            >            job.
            >            - Do you think it's healthy to send emails trying to talk shit 
            > instead
            >            of ...
            >            - ... project? Or is Twitter the official list now? Go ahead, 
            > I'll wait.
            >         
            >         
            >         Given your behavior and rhetoric on this thread, I believe you lack the
            >         professionalism and character to be a board member of anything, let 
            > alone
            >         representing the Apache Software Foundation and it's ideals. 
            > I've CC'd the
            >         rest of the Apache board because I would like to formally complain about
            >         your divisive rhetoric and overall unprofessional conduct within this
            >         mailing list.
            >         
            >         This list, and community, are made up of individuals and volunteers. I
            >         believe, attacking them, even though you believe you may have been
            >         attacked, detracts from the conversation and elevates tension in an 
            > already
            >         tense community.  I encourage others to chime in if I am misreading 
            > here. I
            >         personally feel that someone acting in a leadership capacity, such as a
            >         board member, should be held to a higher standard of professionalism and
            >         conduct when doing business; whether it is with their board member hat 
            > on
            >         or not.  I would hate for it to be assumed that the entire Apache board
            >         encourages, promotes, or even acts in this manner.
            >         
            >         -Russ
            >         
            >         
            >         
            >         On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 1:18 PM Mattmann, Chris A (3010) <
            >         chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
            >         
            >         > Mark Thomas got it done ✅
            >         >
            >         > Sent from my iPhone
            >         >
            >         > > On Nov 4, 2016, at 10:13 AM, Jason Brown 
            > <ja...@gmail.com> wrote:
            >         > >
            >         > > s/sis/is
            >         > >
            >         > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:12 AM, Jason Brown 
            > <ja...@gmail.com>
            >         > wrote:
            >         > >>
            >         > >> Chris,
            >         > >>
            >         > >> Yes, I would like to be added, and here sis the ticket I 
            > filed:
            >         > >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-12858.
            >         > >>
            >         > >> Thanks,
            >         > >>
            >         > >> -Jason
            >         > >>
            >         > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Chris Mattmann 
            > <ma...@apache.org>
            >         > >> wrote:
            >         > >>
            >         > >>> I have apmail karma and can add moderators.
            >         > >>>
            >         > >>> Jason I can add you - please confirm you would like to 
            > be added. Did
            >         > you
            >         > >>> file the ticket - if so point me to it. If you 
            > haven't yet, no worries
            >         > I
            >         > >>> can still add you. Let me know. Thanks.
            >         > >>>
            >         > >>>> On 2016-11-04 09:54 (-0700), Jason Brown 
            > <ja...@gmail.com>
            >         > wrote:
            >         > >>>> Gary,
            >         > >>>>
            >         > >>>> I've just started looking into the moderator 
            > component due to this
            >         > >>> thread;
            >         > >>>> I admit I did not know about it before (my fault). 
            > Yes, I would like
            >         > to
            >         > >>> be
            >         > >>>> added. Apparently, I need to file an INFRA ticket 
            > (as per
            >         > >>>> 
            > https://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mailing-list-moderators),
            >         > >>> which
            >         > >>>> I will do in the next few minutes.
            >         > >>>>
            >         > >>>> -Jason
            >         > >>>>
            >         > >>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Gary Dusbabek 
            > <gd...@gmail.com>
            >         > >>> wrote:
            >         > >>>>
            >         > >>>>> I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the 
            > only one with moderator privs. Any
            >         > >>> other
            >         > >>>>> committer/PMCs interested?
            >         > >>>>>
            >         > >>>>> Sorry, it's a chore to begin with and 
            > I've been traveling this week.
            >         > >>>>>
            >         > >>>>> Gary.
            >         > >>>>>
            >         > >>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Chris Mattmann 
            > <ma...@apache.org>
            >         > >>>>> wrote:
            >         > >>>>>
            >         > >>>>>> Hi Folks,
            >         > >>>>>>
            >         > >>>>>> Kelly Sommers sent a message to 
            > dev@cassandra and I'm trying to
            >         > >>> figure
            >         > >>>>>> out if it's in moderation.
            >         > >>>>>>
            >         > >>>>>> Can the moderators speak up?
            >         > >>>>>>
            >         > >>>>>> Cheers,
            >         > >>>>>> Chris
            >         > >>>>>>
            >         > >>>>>>
            >         > >>>>>
            >         > >>>>
            >         > >>>
            >         > >>
            >         > >>
            >         >
            > 
            
        
        
        
    
    
    

Re: Moderation

[Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org>]

For the record, your breakdown of the email trying to decipher what I meant is not 
correct. It’s not your fault, but email doesn’t convey tone, nor do you know what I am 
thinking or what I was trying to say. In fact, I was actually saying the PMC wasn’t doing its job, 
because (as I stated to you months ago), you (and many other community members of  
Cassandra) *should* have a binding vote. It wasn’t discrediting to you to point out that 
you don’t have the PMC or committer credentials; it was an example trying to point out 
that you *should* have them. And that you clearly care about the project as I believe you 
have developed a book on the subject of Apache Cassandra a while back IIRC which in Tika,
Nutch, OODT, and a number of other projects would have earned you the ability to have a
direct say in those Apache projects. And a lot of others.

It’s these systematic fracturing of the community under the guise of a single vendor who
has stated that they care about Cassandra (note the omission of Apache), but by demonstration
has shown they either don’t understand, or don’t care about the Apache part of the equation.
That’s what caused me to become frustrated when the following sequence of events
happened:

1. After the Board meeting Mark Thomas one of our Directors took point on engaging
the Apache Cassandra PMC with some of the concerns brought up over the past 6
months and the role I was filling there became a back seat for me. 
2. I saw over the past few days on a Twitter feed retweeted by an ASF member that 
Kelly Sommers (whom I have never met in person and do not know previously) was asking
questions and stating negative things about the ASF that I believed could be much better
understood by bringing them here to the ASF mailing lists for Apache Cassandra. I suggested
on Twitter that she bring her concerns to the Apache lists and told her which email address
to send it to. Some of the same people that eventually came onto the thread were people 
who were communicating with her on Twitter – this was disappointing as they could have 
done the same thing, and suggested Kelly come to the lists, Apache Cassandra PMC or not.
3. After 12 hours I checked back with Kelly and the Twitter dialogue had continued with several
ASF members and even some Board members getting involved. Again, I asked Kelly why talk
there, and why not just talk to the email list which is the canonical home for Apache Cassandra?
She told me she sent the mail the prior night. 
4. So of course I checked (after having already guessed it was stuck in moderation) and yes it
was. What ensued was both frustration by my part and also email conversation that was heated
on both sides. I felt swiped on by a few emails where I had good intentions but I felt we were 
wasting time debating whether we *should* moderate something through – which to me was
a clear answer (yes). Where I failed there was to recognize that the real answer was that the Apache
Cassandra PMC did not have enough moderators and the people I was mostly going back and forth
with were not the moderators of the mailing lists. 
5. One positive thing that came from #4 was that at least there are more moderators now. I’m not sure
the reason for the lack of geographically diverse moderators, but it’s definitely something the PMC should
check from time to time. Not pointing fingers, simply identifying responsibility. 

In my emails I used the word “shi*t” and “f’ing”. I didn’t direct either of these words at anyone in particular.
I used them as color in expressing my frustration. It happens from time to time. Sorry. 

The Cassandra MVP comment was also not a diss on you as much as it was me saying – ideally – I would hope that
the Apache Cassandra MVP people promote the concept of their community leaders becoming “ASF members”, 
and that Cassandra MVPs are great – but secondary – to the responsibilities of the PMC to move towards ensuring
its community understands the Apache Way. 

Russell and I have never met in person so he does not really know me and nor I him. So he doesn’t know some of
these nuances that people would normally know having met each other in mediums besides email or electronically.
Many of you do not know me either. I will conclude with saying that I realize many of the people here for Apache
Cassandra have the best intentions for the project at heart. Please realize I do too. I care about the ASF and projects
and it leads me to send TL;DR emails and/or to use passion in my words. That can lead to frustration and to other
emotions. 

Thanks for listening. 

Cheers,
Chris



On 11/5/16, 3:16 PM, "Russell Bradberry" <rb...@gmail.com> wrote:

    For the record, I never said anyone was attempting to make me “look bad”.  I simply stated that his method of argument was to discredit me.  Below I will break down his response, as I see it, and as others who have messaged me off list see it as well:
    
    “… You see I’ve been around since 2004 and elected by the membership to the Board for the last three years based on merit …”
    
    Here he is showing his superiority by way of tenure, or merit.
    
    “You see I actually understand…”
    
    The use of the term “actually” in this sense is to provide an attack against me in an effort to prove that I do not understand.
    
    “…unfortunately you do not have a voice …”
    
    Again, this is a blatant attempt to discredit me and provide proof that my word is of no worth because I am not on the PMC, nor a committer.
    
    “You won’t have a vote in the next Apache Board election.”
    
    Again
    
    “You won’t have a vote in the next Members election.”
    
    Again
    
    “why haven’t you been elected to have a binding voice within the project? Please ask yourself that”
    
    This is either an attempt to discredit me, in that I have not done enough to be elected, or an attempt to state the PMC hasn’t been doing their job in recognizing my efforts.
    
    “please ask yourself – what is a “Cassandra MVP” compared to a member of the ASF which is home to the project””
    
    This is not only insinuating that MVP is less than being a member of the ASF, and because I was given the MVP title, that somehow I am less than as well. (for the record, I have not asked for the MVP title, it was awarded, and I do not think that it should have any effect on the project from an Apache standpoint. Quite simply put, it is just another bullet point on a resume)
    
    “I’ve been privy and voted on granting membership to within the foundation since 2011”
    
    More attempts to discredit me by showing tenure.
    
    Literally, the first portion of the response was a campaign to discredit me in order to demonstrate his merit.  The rest of the email goes to defend a point that I did not make.  
    
    Again, I will assert that the complaints the board has are valid.  Datastax may have overstepped bounds and, as a result, put the project and ASF at risk.  I am not an authority on the subject and have not been privy to the private messages between the board, PMC, and Datastax.  What I will say, is that the tone, vitriol, ad-hominem responses and other unprofessional conduct has caused a rift in this community.  Most of this is coming directly from the board, specifically Chris.  Furthermore, as Aleksey has pointed out, this occurs in the private lists as well.  This is a form of toxic-leadership and is proven to not only be ineffective, but also be directly harmful.  These issues can, and should, be resolved amicably. 
    
    Professionalism and Respect, if aren’t, should be of the core tenets of any foundation, especially one of the caliber of Apache.
    
    
    
    On 11/5/16, 9:38 AM, "Mark Struberg" <st...@yahoo.de.INVALID> wrote:
    
        Russel, I don't read that out of Chris' answer.
        He just tried to show how community development might look like if done a bit more openly.
        
        Do you mind going back to Chris' original reply and re-read it again?
        I've not interpreted it as anyone trying to make you look bad. Au contraire!
        
        
        txs and LieGrue,
        strub
        
        
        
        
        
        > On Saturday, 5 November 2016, 13:56, Russell Bradberry <rb...@gmail.com> wrote:
        > > It seems that your tactic of argument is to discredit me at every level in order 
        > to show your superiority of sorts.  Let me set this straight, I am not 
        > attempting to say that I am an authority on ASF or that I know how things should 
        > be run.  I also was not attempting to vilify you in front of the board or vilify 
        > you in any way.  My complaint is that your rhetoric is unprofessional; and as a 
        > representative of the board the language you use is, plainly, casting a bad 
        > light on the ASF.
        > 
        > I understand all of your concerns and was not attempting to minimize them in any 
        > way; they are legitimate concerns.  The way you are handling them is what I am 
        > concerned with and the tone you take is what I believe is helping divide the 
        > community.  Being the “villain” as you say is what is the problem.  If you cast 
        > yourself as the villain as a representative of the foundation you are then 
        > making the foundation look bad.
        > 
        > Lastly, I may not have a vote, but I do have a voice.  Everyone in the community 
        > does and can be heard, if not then it isn’t much of a community at all. I 
        > wouldn’t have you voted off the board nor do I want you to be voted off the 
        > board, I have not enough information to make a sound decision in that regard.  
        > 
        > All I ask if for some common professionalism and courtesy, nothing more.
        > 
        > 
        > 
        > 
        > On 11/4/16, 4:46 PM, "Chris Mattmann" <ma...@apache.org> 
        > wrote:
        > 
        >     Hi Russ,
        >     
        >     Sorry that you feel that way. I’m happy to be the villain when it comes to 
        > protecting
        >     those same ideals you cite regarding Apache in your below thread. You see 
        > I’ve been
        >     around since 2004 and elected by the membership to the Board for the last 
        > three years
        >     based on merit, and contributions towards those ideals over a decade of the 
        > ASF. 
        >     I’ve been around longer than Apache Cassandra and this community and fully 
        > intend 
        >     for that to continue. My job is not to only care about Cassandra. It’s to 
        > ensure that the 
        >     ASF is a vendor neutral ground for ALL of its projects. You see I actually 
        > understand and 
        >     have read what’s required of me to serve the membership of the ASF and its 
        > communities. 
        >     I take this VERY seriously. Perhaps more than you know.
        >     
        >     You see the other problem with your complaint about me – is that 
        > unfortunately you
        >     do not have a voice to act on that complaint. You won’t have a vote in the 
        > next Apache
        >     Board election. You won’t have a vote in the next Members election. And 
        > *that* is
        >     the rub. I wouldn’t even care if you did or not and you voted against me on 
        > the ballot.
        >     If the Apache Cassandra PMC or community cared enough about you or your 
        > contributions
        >     to the project, you would have been made a committer, or PMC member, long 
        > ago, and
        >     heck you would have even had a chance to become an ASF member where you 
        > could do
        >     more than simply voice your displeasure with my actions, you would be able 
        > to vote with
        >     your feet against my tyranny of trying to make this project’s management 
        > committee 
        >     understand their responsibilities for the ASF. I don’t even consider your 
        > requests to have
        >     me vilified in front of the Board something that would disqualify you for 
        > membership in 
        >     the PMC or committee. If you have been making contributions, even discussion 
        > threads,
        >     answering questions, etc., to the point of your prior emails including this 
        > one – why haven’t
        >     you been elected to have a binding voice within the project? Please ask 
        > yourself that. 
        >     
        >     In fact, please ask yourself – what is a “Cassandra MVP” compared to a 
        > member of the 
        >     ASF which is home to the project? Also please go look at all the people I’ve 
        > been privy and 
        >     voted on granting membership to within the foundation since 2011, go look at 
        > some of the 
        >     functioning and healthy projects that don’t have a problem with vendor 
        > neutrality at the 
        >     ASF, and *then* come and talk to me about how my professional and character 
        > isn’t such 
        >     to stand on the board of the ASF. Again, I’ll wait.
        >     
        >     If it’s a hostile request to ask that a potentially inflammatory Twitter 
        > discussion that I attempted
        >     to bring about to the *source of the project’s discussion here at the ASF* 
        > and for a mail summarizing
        >     that Twitter discussion to be moderated through within 12 hours, and
        >     for the PMC of an Apache project to understand its commitments regarding 
        > having
        >     geographically diverse moderators for their Apache lists; and if it’s a 
        > hostile request to 
        >     ask that all members of the community including those non committers and/or 
        > PMC 
        >     that take to Twitter to voice their concerns when they are not sure of even 
        > where the 
        >     canonical discussion for the project is have a voice here on the canonical 
        > lists for the project
        >     then there is something fundamentally wrong with the community. I will 
        > assert again based 
        >     on my reading of the facts including archives, code, discussions here and 
        > outside of the ASF, abuse 
        >     of trademarks, vendor non-neutrality, tea leaves and the collective WHOLE of 
        > those things that my initial
        >     request to bring the conversation on list -  that was met with the usual 
        > random drive by vitriol and my follow
        >     up asking how in the bleeping world there were at least 3 emails questioning 
        > whether or not an email
        >     should be moderated though - was warranted. 
        >     
        >     I state this as someone who has seen Apache projects come and go and will 
        >     continue to see that, even ones at the same level of interest as Cassandra 
        > (and much 
        >     much more too as well). If it’s hostile for a Board member to drive the 
        > discussions to 
        >     the mailing list instead of outside sources, then my apologies for my 
        > hostility. You will
        >     continue to get that apology as I continue to do my job and what I signed up 
        > to do as an
        >     ASF board member in terms of maintaining that vendor neutrality, 
        > irrespective of whether
        >     or not people don’t like my directness, frankness, and discussion.
        >     
        >     Chris
        >     
        >     On 11/4/16, 1:09 PM, "Russell Bradberry" 
        > <rb...@gmail.com> wrote:
        >     
        >            - ... we are arguing whether to f'ing moderate it through. Wow. 
        > Great
        >            job.
        >            - Do you think it's healthy to send emails trying to talk shit 
        > instead
        >            of ...
        >            - ... project? Or is Twitter the official list now? Go ahead, 
        > I'll wait.
        >         
        >         
        >         Given your behavior and rhetoric on this thread, I believe you lack the
        >         professionalism and character to be a board member of anything, let 
        > alone
        >         representing the Apache Software Foundation and it's ideals. 
        > I've CC'd the
        >         rest of the Apache board because I would like to formally complain about
        >         your divisive rhetoric and overall unprofessional conduct within this
        >         mailing list.
        >         
        >         This list, and community, are made up of individuals and volunteers. I
        >         believe, attacking them, even though you believe you may have been
        >         attacked, detracts from the conversation and elevates tension in an 
        > already
        >         tense community.  I encourage others to chime in if I am misreading 
        > here. I
        >         personally feel that someone acting in a leadership capacity, such as a
        >         board member, should be held to a higher standard of professionalism and
        >         conduct when doing business; whether it is with their board member hat 
        > on
        >         or not.  I would hate for it to be assumed that the entire Apache board
        >         encourages, promotes, or even acts in this manner.
        >         
        >         -Russ
        >         
        >         
        >         
        >         On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 1:18 PM Mattmann, Chris A (3010) <
        >         chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
        >         
        >         > Mark Thomas got it done ✅
        >         >
        >         > Sent from my iPhone
        >         >
        >         > > On Nov 4, 2016, at 10:13 AM, Jason Brown 
        > <ja...@gmail.com> wrote:
        >         > >
        >         > > s/sis/is
        >         > >
        >         > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:12 AM, Jason Brown 
        > <ja...@gmail.com>
        >         > wrote:
        >         > >>
        >         > >> Chris,
        >         > >>
        >         > >> Yes, I would like to be added, and here sis the ticket I 
        > filed:
        >         > >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-12858.
        >         > >>
        >         > >> Thanks,
        >         > >>
        >         > >> -Jason
        >         > >>
        >         > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Chris Mattmann 
        > <ma...@apache.org>
        >         > >> wrote:
        >         > >>
        >         > >>> I have apmail karma and can add moderators.
        >         > >>>
        >         > >>> Jason I can add you - please confirm you would like to 
        > be added. Did
        >         > you
        >         > >>> file the ticket - if so point me to it. If you 
        > haven't yet, no worries
        >         > I
        >         > >>> can still add you. Let me know. Thanks.
        >         > >>>
        >         > >>>> On 2016-11-04 09:54 (-0700), Jason Brown 
        > <ja...@gmail.com>
        >         > wrote:
        >         > >>>> Gary,
        >         > >>>>
        >         > >>>> I've just started looking into the moderator 
        > component due to this
        >         > >>> thread;
        >         > >>>> I admit I did not know about it before (my fault). 
        > Yes, I would like
        >         > to
        >         > >>> be
        >         > >>>> added. Apparently, I need to file an INFRA ticket 
        > (as per
        >         > >>>> 
        > https://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mailing-list-moderators),
        >         > >>> which
        >         > >>>> I will do in the next few minutes.
        >         > >>>>
        >         > >>>> -Jason
        >         > >>>>
        >         > >>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Gary Dusbabek 
        > <gd...@gmail.com>
        >         > >>> wrote:
        >         > >>>>
        >         > >>>>> I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the 
        > only one with moderator privs. Any
        >         > >>> other
        >         > >>>>> committer/PMCs interested?
        >         > >>>>>
        >         > >>>>> Sorry, it's a chore to begin with and 
        > I've been traveling this week.
        >         > >>>>>
        >         > >>>>> Gary.
        >         > >>>>>
        >         > >>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Chris Mattmann 
        > <ma...@apache.org>
        >         > >>>>> wrote:
        >         > >>>>>
        >         > >>>>>> Hi Folks,
        >         > >>>>>>
        >         > >>>>>> Kelly Sommers sent a message to 
        > dev@cassandra and I'm trying to
        >         > >>> figure
        >         > >>>>>> out if it's in moderation.
        >         > >>>>>>
        >         > >>>>>> Can the moderators speak up?
        >         > >>>>>>
        >         > >>>>>> Cheers,
        >         > >>>>>> Chris
        >         > >>>>>>
        >         > >>>>>>
        >         > >>>>>
        >         > >>>>
        >         > >>>
        >         > >>
        >         > >>
        >         >
        > 
        
    
    
    

Re: Moderation

[Jonathan Haddad <jo...@jonhaddad.com>]

I agree with Paul. Same boat, not a PMC / Datastax, just someone that cares
a lot about this community.
On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 3:04 PM paul cannon <pc...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm not a stakeholder here- I don't know Russell, I don't work for
> Datastax, and I'm not a member of the ASF.
>
> For what little it's probably worth since I haven't "been elected to have a
> binding voice within the project", Russell's is exactly how I read the
> message from Chris Mattmann. Whether or not it was intended to be so
> aggressive and dismissive and patronizing, I almost can't even believe
> something that *might* be taken this way is tolerated in a board member's
> *public* communications.
>
> In the end, I *can* believe it, though, as it reinforces my perception of
> the Foundation in general. :(
>
> p
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 5:16 PM, Russell Bradberry <rb...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > For the record, I never said anyone was attempting to make me “look bad”.
> > I simply stated that his method of argument was to discredit me.  Below I
> > will break down his response, as I see it, and as others who have
> messaged
> > me off list see it as well:
> >
> > “… You see I’ve been around since 2004 and elected by the membership to
> > the Board for the last three years based on merit …”
> >
> > Here he is showing his superiority by way of tenure, or merit.
> >
> > “You see I actually understand…”
> >
> > The use of the term “actually” in this sense is to provide an attack
> > against me in an effort to prove that I do not understand.
> >
> > “…unfortunately you do not have a voice …”
> >
> > Again, this is a blatant attempt to discredit me and provide proof that
> my
> > word is of no worth because I am not on the PMC, nor a committer.
> >
> > “You won’t have a vote in the next Apache Board election.”
> >
> > Again
> >
> > “You won’t have a vote in the next Members election.”
> >
> > Again
> >
> > “why haven’t you been elected to have a binding voice within the project?
> > Please ask yourself that”
> >
> > This is either an attempt to discredit me, in that I have not done enough
> > to be elected, or an attempt to state the PMC hasn’t been doing their job
> > in recognizing my efforts.
> >
> > “please ask yourself – what is a “Cassandra MVP” compared to a member of
> > the ASF which is home to the project””
> >
> > This is not only insinuating that MVP is less than being a member of the
> > ASF, and because I was given the MVP title, that somehow I am less than
> as
> > well. (for the record, I have not asked for the MVP title, it was
> awarded,
> > and I do not think that it should have any effect on the project from an
> > Apache standpoint. Quite simply put, it is just another bullet point on a
> > resume)
> >
> > “I’ve been privy and voted on granting membership to within the
> foundation
> > since 2011”
> >
> > More attempts to discredit me by showing tenure.
> >
> > Literally, the first portion of the response was a campaign to discredit
> > me in order to demonstrate his merit.  The rest of the email goes to
> defend
> > a point that I did not make.
> >
> > Again, I will assert that the complaints the board has are valid.
> > Datastax may have overstepped bounds and, as a result, put the project
> and
> > ASF at risk.  I am not an authority on the subject and have not been
> privy
> > to the private messages between the board, PMC, and Datastax.  What I
> will
> > say, is that the tone, vitriol, ad-hominem responses and other
> > unprofessional conduct has caused a rift in this community.  Most of this
> > is coming directly from the board, specifically Chris.  Furthermore, as
> > Aleksey has pointed out, this occurs in the private lists as well.  This
> is
> > a form of toxic-leadership and is proven to not only be ineffective, but
> > also be directly harmful.  These issues can, and should, be resolved
> > amicably.
> >
> > Professionalism and Respect, if aren’t, should be of the core tenets of
> > any foundation, especially one of the caliber of Apache.
> >
> >
> >
> > On 11/5/16, 9:38 AM, "Mark Struberg" <st...@yahoo.de.INVALID> wrote:
> >
> >     Russel, I don't read that out of Chris' answer.
> >     He just tried to show how community development might look like if
> > done a bit more openly.
> >
> >     Do you mind going back to Chris' original reply and re-read it again?
> >     I've not interpreted it as anyone trying to make you look bad. Au
> > contraire!
> >
> >
> >     txs and LieGrue,
> >     strub
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >     > On Saturday, 5 November 2016, 13:56, Russell Bradberry <
> > rbradberry@gmail.com> wrote:
> >     > > It seems that your tactic of argument is to discredit me at every
> > level in order
> >     > to show your superiority of sorts.  Let me set this straight, I am
> > not
> >     > attempting to say that I am an authority on ASF or that I know how
> > things should
> >     > be run.  I also was not attempting to vilify you in front of the
> > board or vilify
> >     > you in any way.  My complaint is that your rhetoric is
> > unprofessional; and as a
> >     > representative of the board the language you use is, plainly,
> > casting a bad
> >     > light on the ASF.
> >     >
> >     > I understand all of your concerns and was not attempting to
> minimize
> > them in any
> >     > way; they are legitimate concerns.  The way you are handling them
> is
> > what I am
> >     > concerned with and the tone you take is what I believe is helping
> > divide the
> >     > community.  Being the “villain” as you say is what is the problem.
> > If you cast
> >     > yourself as the villain as a representative of the foundation you
> > are then
> >     > making the foundation look bad.
> >     >
> >     > Lastly, I may not have a vote, but I do have a voice.  Everyone in
> > the community
> >     > does and can be heard, if not then it isn’t much of a community at
> > all. I
> >     > wouldn’t have you voted off the board nor do I want you to be voted
> > off the
> >     > board, I have not enough information to make a sound decision in
> > that regard.
> >     >
> >     > All I ask if for some common professionalism and courtesy, nothing
> > more.
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >
> >     > On 11/4/16, 4:46 PM, "Chris Mattmann" <ma...@apache.org>
> >     > wrote:
> >     >
> >     >     Hi Russ,
> >     >
> >     >     Sorry that you feel that way. I’m happy to be the villain when
> > it comes to
> >     > protecting
> >     >     those same ideals you cite regarding Apache in your below
> > thread. You see
> >     > I’ve been
> >     >     around since 2004 and elected by the membership to the Board
> for
> > the last
> >     > three years
> >     >     based on merit, and contributions towards those ideals over a
> > decade of the
> >     > ASF.
> >     >     I’ve been around longer than Apache Cassandra and this
> community
> > and fully
> >     > intend
> >     >     for that to continue. My job is not to only care about
> > Cassandra. It’s to
> >     > ensure that the
> >     >     ASF is a vendor neutral ground for ALL of its projects. You see
> > I actually
> >     > understand and
> >     >     have read what’s required of me to serve the membership of the
> > ASF and its
> >     > communities.
> >     >     I take this VERY seriously. Perhaps more than you know.
> >     >
> >     >     You see the other problem with your complaint about me – is
> that
> >     > unfortunately you
> >     >     do not have a voice to act on that complaint. You won’t have a
> > vote in the
> >     > next Apache
> >     >     Board election. You won’t have a vote in the next Members
> > election. And
> >     > *that* is
> >     >     the rub. I wouldn’t even care if you did or not and you voted
> > against me on
> >     > the ballot.
> >     >     If the Apache Cassandra PMC or community cared enough about you
> > or your
> >     > contributions
> >     >     to the project, you would have been made a committer, or PMC
> > member, long
> >     > ago, and
> >     >     heck you would have even had a chance to become an ASF member
> > where you
> >     > could do
> >     >     more than simply voice your displeasure with my actions, you
> > would be able
> >     > to vote with
> >     >     your feet against my tyranny of trying to make this project’s
> > management
> >     > committee
> >     >     understand their responsibilities for the ASF. I don’t even
> > consider your
> >     > requests to have
> >     >     me vilified in front of the Board something that would
> > disqualify you for
> >     > membership in
> >     >     the PMC or committee. If you have been making contributions,
> > even discussion
> >     > threads,
> >     >     answering questions, etc., to the point of your prior emails
> > including this
> >     > one – why haven’t
> >     >     you been elected to have a binding voice within the project?
> > Please ask
> >     > yourself that.
> >     >
> >     >     In fact, please ask yourself – what is a “Cassandra MVP”
> > compared to a
> >     > member of the
> >     >     ASF which is home to the project? Also please go look at all
> the
> > people I’ve
> >     > been privy and
> >     >     voted on granting membership to within the foundation since
> > 2011, go look at
> >     > some of the
> >     >     functioning and healthy projects that don’t have a problem with
> > vendor
> >     > neutrality at the
> >     >     ASF, and *then* come and talk to me about how my professional
> > and character
> >     > isn’t such
> >     >     to stand on the board of the ASF. Again, I’ll wait.
> >     >
> >     >     If it’s a hostile request to ask that a potentially
> inflammatory
> > Twitter
> >     > discussion that I attempted
> >     >     to bring about to the *source of the project’s discussion here
> > at the ASF*
> >     > and for a mail summarizing
> >     >     that Twitter discussion to be moderated through within 12
> hours,
> > and
> >     >     for the PMC of an Apache project to understand its commitments
> > regarding
> >     > having
> >     >     geographically diverse moderators for their Apache lists; and
> if
> > it’s a
> >     > hostile request to
> >     >     ask that all members of the community including those non
> > committers and/or
> >     > PMC
> >     >     that take to Twitter to voice their concerns when they are not
> > sure of even
> >     > where the
> >     >     canonical discussion for the project is have a voice here on
> the
> > canonical
> >     > lists for the project
> >     >     then there is something fundamentally wrong with the community.
> > I will
> >     > assert again based
> >     >     on my reading of the facts including archives, code,
> discussions
> > here and
> >     > outside of the ASF, abuse
> >     >     of trademarks, vendor non-neutrality, tea leaves and the
> > collective WHOLE of
> >     > those things that my initial
> >     >     request to bring the conversation on list -  that was met with
> > the usual
> >     > random drive by vitriol and my follow
> >     >     up asking how in the bleeping world there were at least 3
> emails
> > questioning
> >     > whether or not an email
> >     >     should be moderated though - was warranted.
> >     >
> >     >     I state this as someone who has seen Apache projects come and
> go
> > and will
> >     >     continue to see that, even ones at the same level of interest
> as
> > Cassandra
> >     > (and much
> >     >     much more too as well). If it’s hostile for a Board member to
> > drive the
> >     > discussions to
> >     >     the mailing list instead of outside sources, then my apologies
> > for my
> >     > hostility. You will
> >     >     continue to get that apology as I continue to do my job and
> what
> > I signed up
> >     > to do as an
> >     >     ASF board member in terms of maintaining that vendor
> neutrality,
> >     > irrespective of whether
> >     >     or not people don’t like my directness, frankness, and
> > discussion.
> >     >
> >     >     Chris
> >     >
> >     >     On 11/4/16, 1:09 PM, "Russell Bradberry"
> >     > <rb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >     >
> >     >            - ... we are arguing whether to f'ing moderate it
> > through. Wow.
> >     > Great
> >     >            job.
> >     >            - Do you think it's healthy to send emails trying to
> talk
> > shit
> >     > instead
> >     >            of ...
> >     >            - ... project? Or is Twitter the official list now? Go
> > ahead,
> >     > I'll wait.
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >         Given your behavior and rhetoric on this thread, I believe
> > you lack the
> >     >         professionalism and character to be a board member of
> > anything, let
> >     > alone
> >     >         representing the Apache Software Foundation and it's
> ideals.
> >     > I've CC'd the
> >     >         rest of the Apache board because I would like to formally
> > complain about
> >     >         your divisive rhetoric and overall unprofessional conduct
> > within this
> >     >         mailing list.
> >     >
> >     >         This list, and community, are made up of individuals and
> > volunteers. I
> >     >         believe, attacking them, even though you believe you may
> > have been
> >     >         attacked, detracts from the conversation and elevates
> > tension in an
> >     > already
> >     >         tense community.  I encourage others to chime in if I am
> > misreading
> >     > here. I
> >     >         personally feel that someone acting in a leadership
> > capacity, such as a
> >     >         board member, should be held to a higher standard of
> > professionalism and
> >     >         conduct when doing business; whether it is with their board
> > member hat
> >     > on
> >     >         or not.  I would hate for it to be assumed that the entire
> > Apache board
> >     >         encourages, promotes, or even acts in this manner.
> >     >
> >     >         -Russ
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >         On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 1:18 PM Mattmann, Chris A (3010) <
> >     >         chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
> >     >
> >     >         > Mark Thomas got it done ✅
> >     >         >
> >     >         > Sent from my iPhone
> >     >         >
> >     >         > > On Nov 4, 2016, at 10:13 AM, Jason Brown
> >     > <ja...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >     >         > >
> >     >         > > s/sis/is
> >     >         > >
> >     >         > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:12 AM, Jason Brown
> >     > <ja...@gmail.com>
> >     >         > wrote:
> >     >         > >>
> >     >         > >> Chris,
> >     >         > >>
> >     >         > >> Yes, I would like to be added, and here sis the
> ticket I
> >     > filed:
> >     >         > >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-12858.
> >     >         > >>
> >     >         > >> Thanks,
> >     >         > >>
> >     >         > >> -Jason
> >     >         > >>
> >     >         > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Chris Mattmann
> >     > <ma...@apache.org>
> >     >         > >> wrote:
> >     >         > >>
> >     >         > >>> I have apmail karma and can add moderators.
> >     >         > >>>
> >     >         > >>> Jason I can add you - please confirm you would like
> to
> >     > be added. Did
> >     >         > you
> >     >         > >>> file the ticket - if so point me to it. If you
> >     > haven't yet, no worries
> >     >         > I
> >     >         > >>> can still add you. Let me know. Thanks.
> >     >         > >>>
> >     >         > >>>> On 2016-11-04 09:54 (-0700), Jason Brown
> >     > <ja...@gmail.com>
> >     >         > wrote:
> >     >         > >>>> Gary,
> >     >         > >>>>
> >     >         > >>>> I've just started looking into the moderator
> >     > component due to this
> >     >         > >>> thread;
> >     >         > >>>> I admit I did not know about it before (my fault).
> >     > Yes, I would like
> >     >         > to
> >     >         > >>> be
> >     >         > >>>> added. Apparently, I need to file an INFRA ticket
> >     > (as per
> >     >         > >>>>
> >     > https://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mailing-list-moderators
> ),
> >     >         > >>> which
> >     >         > >>>> I will do in the next few minutes.
> >     >         > >>>>
> >     >         > >>>> -Jason
> >     >         > >>>>
> >     >         > >>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Gary Dusbabek
> >     > <gd...@gmail.com>
> >     >         > >>> wrote:
> >     >         > >>>>
> >     >         > >>>>> I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the
> >     > only one with moderator privs. Any
> >     >         > >>> other
> >     >         > >>>>> committer/PMCs interested?
> >     >         > >>>>>
> >     >         > >>>>> Sorry, it's a chore to begin with and
> >     > I've been traveling this week.
> >     >         > >>>>>
> >     >         > >>>>> Gary.
> >     >         > >>>>>
> >     >         > >>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Chris Mattmann
> >     > <ma...@apache.org>
> >     >         > >>>>> wrote:
> >     >         > >>>>>
> >     >         > >>>>>> Hi Folks,
> >     >         > >>>>>>
> >     >         > >>>>>> Kelly Sommers sent a message to
> >     > dev@cassandra and I'm trying to
> >     >         > >>> figure
> >     >         > >>>>>> out if it's in moderation.
> >     >         > >>>>>>
> >     >         > >>>>>> Can the moderators speak up?
> >     >         > >>>>>>
> >     >         > >>>>>> Cheers,
> >     >         > >>>>>> Chris
> >     >         > >>>>>>
> >     >         > >>>>>>
> >     >         > >>>>>
> >     >         > >>>>
> >     >         > >>>
> >     >         > >>
> >     >         > >>
> >     >         >
> >     >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Re: Moderation

[paul cannon <pc...@gmail.com>]

I'm not a stakeholder here- I don't know Russell, I don't work for
Datastax, and I'm not a member of the ASF.

For what little it's probably worth since I haven't "been elected to have a
binding voice within the project", Russell's is exactly how I read the
message from Chris Mattmann. Whether or not it was intended to be so
aggressive and dismissive and patronizing, I almost can't even believe
something that *might* be taken this way is tolerated in a board member's
*public* communications.

In the end, I *can* believe it, though, as it reinforces my perception of
the Foundation in general. :(

p


On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 5:16 PM, Russell Bradberry <rb...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> For the record, I never said anyone was attempting to make me “look bad”.
> I simply stated that his method of argument was to discredit me.  Below I
> will break down his response, as I see it, and as others who have messaged
> me off list see it as well:
>
> “… You see I’ve been around since 2004 and elected by the membership to
> the Board for the last three years based on merit …”
>
> Here he is showing his superiority by way of tenure, or merit.
>
> “You see I actually understand…”
>
> The use of the term “actually” in this sense is to provide an attack
> against me in an effort to prove that I do not understand.
>
> “…unfortunately you do not have a voice …”
>
> Again, this is a blatant attempt to discredit me and provide proof that my
> word is of no worth because I am not on the PMC, nor a committer.
>
> “You won’t have a vote in the next Apache Board election.”
>
> Again
>
> “You won’t have a vote in the next Members election.”
>
> Again
>
> “why haven’t you been elected to have a binding voice within the project?
> Please ask yourself that”
>
> This is either an attempt to discredit me, in that I have not done enough
> to be elected, or an attempt to state the PMC hasn’t been doing their job
> in recognizing my efforts.
>
> “please ask yourself – what is a “Cassandra MVP” compared to a member of
> the ASF which is home to the project””
>
> This is not only insinuating that MVP is less than being a member of the
> ASF, and because I was given the MVP title, that somehow I am less than as
> well. (for the record, I have not asked for the MVP title, it was awarded,
> and I do not think that it should have any effect on the project from an
> Apache standpoint. Quite simply put, it is just another bullet point on a
> resume)
>
> “I’ve been privy and voted on granting membership to within the foundation
> since 2011”
>
> More attempts to discredit me by showing tenure.
>
> Literally, the first portion of the response was a campaign to discredit
> me in order to demonstrate his merit.  The rest of the email goes to defend
> a point that I did not make.
>
> Again, I will assert that the complaints the board has are valid.
> Datastax may have overstepped bounds and, as a result, put the project and
> ASF at risk.  I am not an authority on the subject and have not been privy
> to the private messages between the board, PMC, and Datastax.  What I will
> say, is that the tone, vitriol, ad-hominem responses and other
> unprofessional conduct has caused a rift in this community.  Most of this
> is coming directly from the board, specifically Chris.  Furthermore, as
> Aleksey has pointed out, this occurs in the private lists as well.  This is
> a form of toxic-leadership and is proven to not only be ineffective, but
> also be directly harmful.  These issues can, and should, be resolved
> amicably.
>
> Professionalism and Respect, if aren’t, should be of the core tenets of
> any foundation, especially one of the caliber of Apache.
>
>
>
> On 11/5/16, 9:38 AM, "Mark Struberg" <st...@yahoo.de.INVALID> wrote:
>
>     Russel, I don't read that out of Chris' answer.
>     He just tried to show how community development might look like if
> done a bit more openly.
>
>     Do you mind going back to Chris' original reply and re-read it again?
>     I've not interpreted it as anyone trying to make you look bad. Au
> contraire!
>
>
>     txs and LieGrue,
>     strub
>
>
>
>
>
>     > On Saturday, 5 November 2016, 13:56, Russell Bradberry <
> rbradberry@gmail.com> wrote:
>     > > It seems that your tactic of argument is to discredit me at every
> level in order
>     > to show your superiority of sorts.  Let me set this straight, I am
> not
>     > attempting to say that I am an authority on ASF or that I know how
> things should
>     > be run.  I also was not attempting to vilify you in front of the
> board or vilify
>     > you in any way.  My complaint is that your rhetoric is
> unprofessional; and as a
>     > representative of the board the language you use is, plainly,
> casting a bad
>     > light on the ASF.
>     >
>     > I understand all of your concerns and was not attempting to minimize
> them in any
>     > way; they are legitimate concerns.  The way you are handling them is
> what I am
>     > concerned with and the tone you take is what I believe is helping
> divide the
>     > community.  Being the “villain” as you say is what is the problem.
> If you cast
>     > yourself as the villain as a representative of the foundation you
> are then
>     > making the foundation look bad.
>     >
>     > Lastly, I may not have a vote, but I do have a voice.  Everyone in
> the community
>     > does and can be heard, if not then it isn’t much of a community at
> all. I
>     > wouldn’t have you voted off the board nor do I want you to be voted
> off the
>     > board, I have not enough information to make a sound decision in
> that regard.
>     >
>     > All I ask if for some common professionalism and courtesy, nothing
> more.
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     > On 11/4/16, 4:46 PM, "Chris Mattmann" <ma...@apache.org>
>     > wrote:
>     >
>     >     Hi Russ,
>     >
>     >     Sorry that you feel that way. I’m happy to be the villain when
> it comes to
>     > protecting
>     >     those same ideals you cite regarding Apache in your below
> thread. You see
>     > I’ve been
>     >     around since 2004 and elected by the membership to the Board for
> the last
>     > three years
>     >     based on merit, and contributions towards those ideals over a
> decade of the
>     > ASF.
>     >     I’ve been around longer than Apache Cassandra and this community
> and fully
>     > intend
>     >     for that to continue. My job is not to only care about
> Cassandra. It’s to
>     > ensure that the
>     >     ASF is a vendor neutral ground for ALL of its projects. You see
> I actually
>     > understand and
>     >     have read what’s required of me to serve the membership of the
> ASF and its
>     > communities.
>     >     I take this VERY seriously. Perhaps more than you know.
>     >
>     >     You see the other problem with your complaint about me – is that
>     > unfortunately you
>     >     do not have a voice to act on that complaint. You won’t have a
> vote in the
>     > next Apache
>     >     Board election. You won’t have a vote in the next Members
> election. And
>     > *that* is
>     >     the rub. I wouldn’t even care if you did or not and you voted
> against me on
>     > the ballot.
>     >     If the Apache Cassandra PMC or community cared enough about you
> or your
>     > contributions
>     >     to the project, you would have been made a committer, or PMC
> member, long
>     > ago, and
>     >     heck you would have even had a chance to become an ASF member
> where you
>     > could do
>     >     more than simply voice your displeasure with my actions, you
> would be able
>     > to vote with
>     >     your feet against my tyranny of trying to make this project’s
> management
>     > committee
>     >     understand their responsibilities for the ASF. I don’t even
> consider your
>     > requests to have
>     >     me vilified in front of the Board something that would
> disqualify you for
>     > membership in
>     >     the PMC or committee. If you have been making contributions,
> even discussion
>     > threads,
>     >     answering questions, etc., to the point of your prior emails
> including this
>     > one – why haven’t
>     >     you been elected to have a binding voice within the project?
> Please ask
>     > yourself that.
>     >
>     >     In fact, please ask yourself – what is a “Cassandra MVP”
> compared to a
>     > member of the
>     >     ASF which is home to the project? Also please go look at all the
> people I’ve
>     > been privy and
>     >     voted on granting membership to within the foundation since
> 2011, go look at
>     > some of the
>     >     functioning and healthy projects that don’t have a problem with
> vendor
>     > neutrality at the
>     >     ASF, and *then* come and talk to me about how my professional
> and character
>     > isn’t such
>     >     to stand on the board of the ASF. Again, I’ll wait.
>     >
>     >     If it’s a hostile request to ask that a potentially inflammatory
> Twitter
>     > discussion that I attempted
>     >     to bring about to the *source of the project’s discussion here
> at the ASF*
>     > and for a mail summarizing
>     >     that Twitter discussion to be moderated through within 12 hours,
> and
>     >     for the PMC of an Apache project to understand its commitments
> regarding
>     > having
>     >     geographically diverse moderators for their Apache lists; and if
> it’s a
>     > hostile request to
>     >     ask that all members of the community including those non
> committers and/or
>     > PMC
>     >     that take to Twitter to voice their concerns when they are not
> sure of even
>     > where the
>     >     canonical discussion for the project is have a voice here on the
> canonical
>     > lists for the project
>     >     then there is something fundamentally wrong with the community.
> I will
>     > assert again based
>     >     on my reading of the facts including archives, code, discussions
> here and
>     > outside of the ASF, abuse
>     >     of trademarks, vendor non-neutrality, tea leaves and the
> collective WHOLE of
>     > those things that my initial
>     >     request to bring the conversation on list -  that was met with
> the usual
>     > random drive by vitriol and my follow
>     >     up asking how in the bleeping world there were at least 3 emails
> questioning
>     > whether or not an email
>     >     should be moderated though - was warranted.
>     >
>     >     I state this as someone who has seen Apache projects come and go
> and will
>     >     continue to see that, even ones at the same level of interest as
> Cassandra
>     > (and much
>     >     much more too as well). If it’s hostile for a Board member to
> drive the
>     > discussions to
>     >     the mailing list instead of outside sources, then my apologies
> for my
>     > hostility. You will
>     >     continue to get that apology as I continue to do my job and what
> I signed up
>     > to do as an
>     >     ASF board member in terms of maintaining that vendor neutrality,
>     > irrespective of whether
>     >     or not people don’t like my directness, frankness, and
> discussion.
>     >
>     >     Chris
>     >
>     >     On 11/4/16, 1:09 PM, "Russell Bradberry"
>     > <rb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>     >
>     >            - ... we are arguing whether to f'ing moderate it
> through. Wow.
>     > Great
>     >            job.
>     >            - Do you think it's healthy to send emails trying to talk
> shit
>     > instead
>     >            of ...
>     >            - ... project? Or is Twitter the official list now? Go
> ahead,
>     > I'll wait.
>     >
>     >
>     >         Given your behavior and rhetoric on this thread, I believe
> you lack the
>     >         professionalism and character to be a board member of
> anything, let
>     > alone
>     >         representing the Apache Software Foundation and it's ideals.
>     > I've CC'd the
>     >         rest of the Apache board because I would like to formally
> complain about
>     >         your divisive rhetoric and overall unprofessional conduct
> within this
>     >         mailing list.
>     >
>     >         This list, and community, are made up of individuals and
> volunteers. I
>     >         believe, attacking them, even though you believe you may
> have been
>     >         attacked, detracts from the conversation and elevates
> tension in an
>     > already
>     >         tense community.  I encourage others to chime in if I am
> misreading
>     > here. I
>     >         personally feel that someone acting in a leadership
> capacity, such as a
>     >         board member, should be held to a higher standard of
> professionalism and
>     >         conduct when doing business; whether it is with their board
> member hat
>     > on
>     >         or not.  I would hate for it to be assumed that the entire
> Apache board
>     >         encourages, promotes, or even acts in this manner.
>     >
>     >         -Russ
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >         On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 1:18 PM Mattmann, Chris A (3010) <
>     >         chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>     >
>     >         > Mark Thomas got it done ✅
>     >         >
>     >         > Sent from my iPhone
>     >         >
>     >         > > On Nov 4, 2016, at 10:13 AM, Jason Brown
>     > <ja...@gmail.com> wrote:
>     >         > >
>     >         > > s/sis/is
>     >         > >
>     >         > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:12 AM, Jason Brown
>     > <ja...@gmail.com>
>     >         > wrote:
>     >         > >>
>     >         > >> Chris,
>     >         > >>
>     >         > >> Yes, I would like to be added, and here sis the ticket I
>     > filed:
>     >         > >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-12858.
>     >         > >>
>     >         > >> Thanks,
>     >         > >>
>     >         > >> -Jason
>     >         > >>
>     >         > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Chris Mattmann
>     > <ma...@apache.org>
>     >         > >> wrote:
>     >         > >>
>     >         > >>> I have apmail karma and can add moderators.
>     >         > >>>
>     >         > >>> Jason I can add you - please confirm you would like to
>     > be added. Did
>     >         > you
>     >         > >>> file the ticket - if so point me to it. If you
>     > haven't yet, no worries
>     >         > I
>     >         > >>> can still add you. Let me know. Thanks.
>     >         > >>>
>     >         > >>>> On 2016-11-04 09:54 (-0700), Jason Brown
>     > <ja...@gmail.com>
>     >         > wrote:
>     >         > >>>> Gary,
>     >         > >>>>
>     >         > >>>> I've just started looking into the moderator
>     > component due to this
>     >         > >>> thread;
>     >         > >>>> I admit I did not know about it before (my fault).
>     > Yes, I would like
>     >         > to
>     >         > >>> be
>     >         > >>>> added. Apparently, I need to file an INFRA ticket
>     > (as per
>     >         > >>>>
>     > https://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mailing-list-moderators),
>     >         > >>> which
>     >         > >>>> I will do in the next few minutes.
>     >         > >>>>
>     >         > >>>> -Jason
>     >         > >>>>
>     >         > >>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Gary Dusbabek
>     > <gd...@gmail.com>
>     >         > >>> wrote:
>     >         > >>>>
>     >         > >>>>> I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the
>     > only one with moderator privs. Any
>     >         > >>> other
>     >         > >>>>> committer/PMCs interested?
>     >         > >>>>>
>     >         > >>>>> Sorry, it's a chore to begin with and
>     > I've been traveling this week.
>     >         > >>>>>
>     >         > >>>>> Gary.
>     >         > >>>>>
>     >         > >>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Chris Mattmann
>     > <ma...@apache.org>
>     >         > >>>>> wrote:
>     >         > >>>>>
>     >         > >>>>>> Hi Folks,
>     >         > >>>>>>
>     >         > >>>>>> Kelly Sommers sent a message to
>     > dev@cassandra and I'm trying to
>     >         > >>> figure
>     >         > >>>>>> out if it's in moderation.
>     >         > >>>>>>
>     >         > >>>>>> Can the moderators speak up?
>     >         > >>>>>>
>     >         > >>>>>> Cheers,
>     >         > >>>>>> Chris
>     >         > >>>>>>
>     >         > >>>>>>
>     >         > >>>>>
>     >         > >>>>
>     >         > >>>
>     >         > >>
>     >         > >>
>     >         >
>     >
>
>
>
>

Re: Moderation

[Russell Bradberry <rb...@gmail.com>]

For the record, I never said anyone was attempting to make me “look bad”.  I simply stated that his method of argument was to discredit me.  Below I will break down his response, as I see it, and as others who have messaged me off list see it as well:

“… You see I’ve been around since 2004 and elected by the membership to the Board for the last three years based on merit …”

Here he is showing his superiority by way of tenure, or merit.

“You see I actually understand…”

The use of the term “actually” in this sense is to provide an attack against me in an effort to prove that I do not understand.

“…unfortunately you do not have a voice …”

Again, this is a blatant attempt to discredit me and provide proof that my word is of no worth because I am not on the PMC, nor a committer.

“You won’t have a vote in the next Apache Board election.”

Again

“You won’t have a vote in the next Members election.”

Again

“why haven’t you been elected to have a binding voice within the project? Please ask yourself that”

This is either an attempt to discredit me, in that I have not done enough to be elected, or an attempt to state the PMC hasn’t been doing their job in recognizing my efforts.

“please ask yourself – what is a “Cassandra MVP” compared to a member of the ASF which is home to the project””

This is not only insinuating that MVP is less than being a member of the ASF, and because I was given the MVP title, that somehow I am less than as well. (for the record, I have not asked for the MVP title, it was awarded, and I do not think that it should have any effect on the project from an Apache standpoint. Quite simply put, it is just another bullet point on a resume)

“I’ve been privy and voted on granting membership to within the foundation since 2011”

More attempts to discredit me by showing tenure.

Literally, the first portion of the response was a campaign to discredit me in order to demonstrate his merit.  The rest of the email goes to defend a point that I did not make.  

Again, I will assert that the complaints the board has are valid.  Datastax may have overstepped bounds and, as a result, put the project and ASF at risk.  I am not an authority on the subject and have not been privy to the private messages between the board, PMC, and Datastax.  What I will say, is that the tone, vitriol, ad-hominem responses and other unprofessional conduct has caused a rift in this community.  Most of this is coming directly from the board, specifically Chris.  Furthermore, as Aleksey has pointed out, this occurs in the private lists as well.  This is a form of toxic-leadership and is proven to not only be ineffective, but also be directly harmful.  These issues can, and should, be resolved amicably. 

Professionalism and Respect, if aren’t, should be of the core tenets of any foundation, especially one of the caliber of Apache.



On 11/5/16, 9:38 AM, "Mark Struberg" <st...@yahoo.de.INVALID> wrote:

    Russel, I don't read that out of Chris' answer.
    He just tried to show how community development might look like if done a bit more openly.
    
    Do you mind going back to Chris' original reply and re-read it again?
    I've not interpreted it as anyone trying to make you look bad. Au contraire!
    
    
    txs and LieGrue,
    strub
    
    
    
    
    
    > On Saturday, 5 November 2016, 13:56, Russell Bradberry <rb...@gmail.com> wrote:
    > > It seems that your tactic of argument is to discredit me at every level in order 
    > to show your superiority of sorts.  Let me set this straight, I am not 
    > attempting to say that I am an authority on ASF or that I know how things should 
    > be run.  I also was not attempting to vilify you in front of the board or vilify 
    > you in any way.  My complaint is that your rhetoric is unprofessional; and as a 
    > representative of the board the language you use is, plainly, casting a bad 
    > light on the ASF.
    > 
    > I understand all of your concerns and was not attempting to minimize them in any 
    > way; they are legitimate concerns.  The way you are handling them is what I am 
    > concerned with and the tone you take is what I believe is helping divide the 
    > community.  Being the “villain” as you say is what is the problem.  If you cast 
    > yourself as the villain as a representative of the foundation you are then 
    > making the foundation look bad.
    > 
    > Lastly, I may not have a vote, but I do have a voice.  Everyone in the community 
    > does and can be heard, if not then it isn’t much of a community at all. I 
    > wouldn’t have you voted off the board nor do I want you to be voted off the 
    > board, I have not enough information to make a sound decision in that regard.  
    > 
    > All I ask if for some common professionalism and courtesy, nothing more.
    > 
    > 
    > 
    > 
    > On 11/4/16, 4:46 PM, "Chris Mattmann" <ma...@apache.org> 
    > wrote:
    > 
    >     Hi Russ,
    >     
    >     Sorry that you feel that way. I’m happy to be the villain when it comes to 
    > protecting
    >     those same ideals you cite regarding Apache in your below thread. You see 
    > I’ve been
    >     around since 2004 and elected by the membership to the Board for the last 
    > three years
    >     based on merit, and contributions towards those ideals over a decade of the 
    > ASF. 
    >     I’ve been around longer than Apache Cassandra and this community and fully 
    > intend 
    >     for that to continue. My job is not to only care about Cassandra. It’s to 
    > ensure that the 
    >     ASF is a vendor neutral ground for ALL of its projects. You see I actually 
    > understand and 
    >     have read what’s required of me to serve the membership of the ASF and its 
    > communities. 
    >     I take this VERY seriously. Perhaps more than you know.
    >     
    >     You see the other problem with your complaint about me – is that 
    > unfortunately you
    >     do not have a voice to act on that complaint. You won’t have a vote in the 
    > next Apache
    >     Board election. You won’t have a vote in the next Members election. And 
    > *that* is
    >     the rub. I wouldn’t even care if you did or not and you voted against me on 
    > the ballot.
    >     If the Apache Cassandra PMC or community cared enough about you or your 
    > contributions
    >     to the project, you would have been made a committer, or PMC member, long 
    > ago, and
    >     heck you would have even had a chance to become an ASF member where you 
    > could do
    >     more than simply voice your displeasure with my actions, you would be able 
    > to vote with
    >     your feet against my tyranny of trying to make this project’s management 
    > committee 
    >     understand their responsibilities for the ASF. I don’t even consider your 
    > requests to have
    >     me vilified in front of the Board something that would disqualify you for 
    > membership in 
    >     the PMC or committee. If you have been making contributions, even discussion 
    > threads,
    >     answering questions, etc., to the point of your prior emails including this 
    > one – why haven’t
    >     you been elected to have a binding voice within the project? Please ask 
    > yourself that. 
    >     
    >     In fact, please ask yourself – what is a “Cassandra MVP” compared to a 
    > member of the 
    >     ASF which is home to the project? Also please go look at all the people I’ve 
    > been privy and 
    >     voted on granting membership to within the foundation since 2011, go look at 
    > some of the 
    >     functioning and healthy projects that don’t have a problem with vendor 
    > neutrality at the 
    >     ASF, and *then* come and talk to me about how my professional and character 
    > isn’t such 
    >     to stand on the board of the ASF. Again, I’ll wait.
    >     
    >     If it’s a hostile request to ask that a potentially inflammatory Twitter 
    > discussion that I attempted
    >     to bring about to the *source of the project’s discussion here at the ASF* 
    > and for a mail summarizing
    >     that Twitter discussion to be moderated through within 12 hours, and
    >     for the PMC of an Apache project to understand its commitments regarding 
    > having
    >     geographically diverse moderators for their Apache lists; and if it’s a 
    > hostile request to 
    >     ask that all members of the community including those non committers and/or 
    > PMC 
    >     that take to Twitter to voice their concerns when they are not sure of even 
    > where the 
    >     canonical discussion for the project is have a voice here on the canonical 
    > lists for the project
    >     then there is something fundamentally wrong with the community. I will 
    > assert again based 
    >     on my reading of the facts including archives, code, discussions here and 
    > outside of the ASF, abuse 
    >     of trademarks, vendor non-neutrality, tea leaves and the collective WHOLE of 
    > those things that my initial
    >     request to bring the conversation on list -  that was met with the usual 
    > random drive by vitriol and my follow
    >     up asking how in the bleeping world there were at least 3 emails questioning 
    > whether or not an email
    >     should be moderated though - was warranted. 
    >     
    >     I state this as someone who has seen Apache projects come and go and will 
    >     continue to see that, even ones at the same level of interest as Cassandra 
    > (and much 
    >     much more too as well). If it’s hostile for a Board member to drive the 
    > discussions to 
    >     the mailing list instead of outside sources, then my apologies for my 
    > hostility. You will
    >     continue to get that apology as I continue to do my job and what I signed up 
    > to do as an
    >     ASF board member in terms of maintaining that vendor neutrality, 
    > irrespective of whether
    >     or not people don’t like my directness, frankness, and discussion.
    >     
    >     Chris
    >     
    >     On 11/4/16, 1:09 PM, "Russell Bradberry" 
    > <rb...@gmail.com> wrote:
    >     
    >            - ... we are arguing whether to f'ing moderate it through. Wow. 
    > Great
    >            job.
    >            - Do you think it's healthy to send emails trying to talk shit 
    > instead
    >            of ...
    >            - ... project? Or is Twitter the official list now? Go ahead, 
    > I'll wait.
    >         
    >         
    >         Given your behavior and rhetoric on this thread, I believe you lack the
    >         professionalism and character to be a board member of anything, let 
    > alone
    >         representing the Apache Software Foundation and it's ideals. 
    > I've CC'd the
    >         rest of the Apache board because I would like to formally complain about
    >         your divisive rhetoric and overall unprofessional conduct within this
    >         mailing list.
    >         
    >         This list, and community, are made up of individuals and volunteers. I
    >         believe, attacking them, even though you believe you may have been
    >         attacked, detracts from the conversation and elevates tension in an 
    > already
    >         tense community.  I encourage others to chime in if I am misreading 
    > here. I
    >         personally feel that someone acting in a leadership capacity, such as a
    >         board member, should be held to a higher standard of professionalism and
    >         conduct when doing business; whether it is with their board member hat 
    > on
    >         or not.  I would hate for it to be assumed that the entire Apache board
    >         encourages, promotes, or even acts in this manner.
    >         
    >         -Russ
    >         
    >         
    >         
    >         On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 1:18 PM Mattmann, Chris A (3010) <
    >         chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
    >         
    >         > Mark Thomas got it done ✅
    >         >
    >         > Sent from my iPhone
    >         >
    >         > > On Nov 4, 2016, at 10:13 AM, Jason Brown 
    > <ja...@gmail.com> wrote:
    >         > >
    >         > > s/sis/is
    >         > >
    >         > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:12 AM, Jason Brown 
    > <ja...@gmail.com>
    >         > wrote:
    >         > >>
    >         > >> Chris,
    >         > >>
    >         > >> Yes, I would like to be added, and here sis the ticket I 
    > filed:
    >         > >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-12858.
    >         > >>
    >         > >> Thanks,
    >         > >>
    >         > >> -Jason
    >         > >>
    >         > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Chris Mattmann 
    > <ma...@apache.org>
    >         > >> wrote:
    >         > >>
    >         > >>> I have apmail karma and can add moderators.
    >         > >>>
    >         > >>> Jason I can add you - please confirm you would like to 
    > be added. Did
    >         > you
    >         > >>> file the ticket - if so point me to it. If you 
    > haven't yet, no worries
    >         > I
    >         > >>> can still add you. Let me know. Thanks.
    >         > >>>
    >         > >>>> On 2016-11-04 09:54 (-0700), Jason Brown 
    > <ja...@gmail.com>
    >         > wrote:
    >         > >>>> Gary,
    >         > >>>>
    >         > >>>> I've just started looking into the moderator 
    > component due to this
    >         > >>> thread;
    >         > >>>> I admit I did not know about it before (my fault). 
    > Yes, I would like
    >         > to
    >         > >>> be
    >         > >>>> added. Apparently, I need to file an INFRA ticket 
    > (as per
    >         > >>>> 
    > https://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mailing-list-moderators),
    >         > >>> which
    >         > >>>> I will do in the next few minutes.
    >         > >>>>
    >         > >>>> -Jason
    >         > >>>>
    >         > >>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Gary Dusbabek 
    > <gd...@gmail.com>
    >         > >>> wrote:
    >         > >>>>
    >         > >>>>> I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the 
    > only one with moderator privs. Any
    >         > >>> other
    >         > >>>>> committer/PMCs interested?
    >         > >>>>>
    >         > >>>>> Sorry, it's a chore to begin with and 
    > I've been traveling this week.
    >         > >>>>>
    >         > >>>>> Gary.
    >         > >>>>>
    >         > >>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Chris Mattmann 
    > <ma...@apache.org>
    >         > >>>>> wrote:
    >         > >>>>>
    >         > >>>>>> Hi Folks,
    >         > >>>>>>
    >         > >>>>>> Kelly Sommers sent a message to 
    > dev@cassandra and I'm trying to
    >         > >>> figure
    >         > >>>>>> out if it's in moderation.
    >         > >>>>>>
    >         > >>>>>> Can the moderators speak up?
    >         > >>>>>>
    >         > >>>>>> Cheers,
    >         > >>>>>> Chris
    >         > >>>>>>
    >         > >>>>>>
    >         > >>>>>
    >         > >>>>
    >         > >>>
    >         > >>
    >         > >>
    >         >
    > 
    

Re: Moderation

[Mark Struberg <st...@yahoo.de.INVALID>]

Russel, I don't read that out of Chris' answer.
He just tried to show how community development might look like if done a bit more openly.

Do you mind going back to Chris' original reply and re-read it again?
I've not interpreted it as anyone trying to make you look bad. Au contraire!


txs and LieGrue,
strub





> On Saturday, 5 November 2016, 13:56, Russell Bradberry <rb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > It seems that your tactic of argument is to discredit me at every level in order 
> to show your superiority of sorts.  Let me set this straight, I am not 
> attempting to say that I am an authority on ASF or that I know how things should 
> be run.  I also was not attempting to vilify you in front of the board or vilify 
> you in any way.  My complaint is that your rhetoric is unprofessional; and as a 
> representative of the board the language you use is, plainly, casting a bad 
> light on the ASF.
> 
> I understand all of your concerns and was not attempting to minimize them in any 
> way; they are legitimate concerns.  The way you are handling them is what I am 
> concerned with and the tone you take is what I believe is helping divide the 
> community.  Being the “villain” as you say is what is the problem.  If you cast 
> yourself as the villain as a representative of the foundation you are then 
> making the foundation look bad.
> 
> Lastly, I may not have a vote, but I do have a voice.  Everyone in the community 
> does and can be heard, if not then it isn’t much of a community at all. I 
> wouldn’t have you voted off the board nor do I want you to be voted off the 
> board, I have not enough information to make a sound decision in that regard.  
> 
> All I ask if for some common professionalism and courtesy, nothing more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 11/4/16, 4:46 PM, "Chris Mattmann" <ma...@apache.org> 
> wrote:
> 
>     Hi Russ,
>     
>     Sorry that you feel that way. I’m happy to be the villain when it comes to 
> protecting
>     those same ideals you cite regarding Apache in your below thread. You see 
> I’ve been
>     around since 2004 and elected by the membership to the Board for the last 
> three years
>     based on merit, and contributions towards those ideals over a decade of the 
> ASF. 
>     I’ve been around longer than Apache Cassandra and this community and fully 
> intend 
>     for that to continue. My job is not to only care about Cassandra. It’s to 
> ensure that the 
>     ASF is a vendor neutral ground for ALL of its projects. You see I actually 
> understand and 
>     have read what’s required of me to serve the membership of the ASF and its 
> communities. 
>     I take this VERY seriously. Perhaps more than you know.
>     
>     You see the other problem with your complaint about me – is that 
> unfortunately you
>     do not have a voice to act on that complaint. You won’t have a vote in the 
> next Apache
>     Board election. You won’t have a vote in the next Members election. And 
> *that* is
>     the rub. I wouldn’t even care if you did or not and you voted against me on 
> the ballot.
>     If the Apache Cassandra PMC or community cared enough about you or your 
> contributions
>     to the project, you would have been made a committer, or PMC member, long 
> ago, and
>     heck you would have even had a chance to become an ASF member where you 
> could do
>     more than simply voice your displeasure with my actions, you would be able 
> to vote with
>     your feet against my tyranny of trying to make this project’s management 
> committee 
>     understand their responsibilities for the ASF. I don’t even consider your 
> requests to have
>     me vilified in front of the Board something that would disqualify you for 
> membership in 
>     the PMC or committee. If you have been making contributions, even discussion 
> threads,
>     answering questions, etc., to the point of your prior emails including this 
> one – why haven’t
>     you been elected to have a binding voice within the project? Please ask 
> yourself that. 
>     
>     In fact, please ask yourself – what is a “Cassandra MVP” compared to a 
> member of the 
>     ASF which is home to the project? Also please go look at all the people I’ve 
> been privy and 
>     voted on granting membership to within the foundation since 2011, go look at 
> some of the 
>     functioning and healthy projects that don’t have a problem with vendor 
> neutrality at the 
>     ASF, and *then* come and talk to me about how my professional and character 
> isn’t such 
>     to stand on the board of the ASF. Again, I’ll wait.
>     
>     If it’s a hostile request to ask that a potentially inflammatory Twitter 
> discussion that I attempted
>     to bring about to the *source of the project’s discussion here at the ASF* 
> and for a mail summarizing
>     that Twitter discussion to be moderated through within 12 hours, and
>     for the PMC of an Apache project to understand its commitments regarding 
> having
>     geographically diverse moderators for their Apache lists; and if it’s a 
> hostile request to 
>     ask that all members of the community including those non committers and/or 
> PMC 
>     that take to Twitter to voice their concerns when they are not sure of even 
> where the 
>     canonical discussion for the project is have a voice here on the canonical 
> lists for the project
>     then there is something fundamentally wrong with the community. I will 
> assert again based 
>     on my reading of the facts including archives, code, discussions here and 
> outside of the ASF, abuse 
>     of trademarks, vendor non-neutrality, tea leaves and the collective WHOLE of 
> those things that my initial
>     request to bring the conversation on list -  that was met with the usual 
> random drive by vitriol and my follow
>     up asking how in the bleeping world there were at least 3 emails questioning 
> whether or not an email
>     should be moderated though - was warranted. 
>     
>     I state this as someone who has seen Apache projects come and go and will 
>     continue to see that, even ones at the same level of interest as Cassandra 
> (and much 
>     much more too as well). If it’s hostile for a Board member to drive the 
> discussions to 
>     the mailing list instead of outside sources, then my apologies for my 
> hostility. You will
>     continue to get that apology as I continue to do my job and what I signed up 
> to do as an
>     ASF board member in terms of maintaining that vendor neutrality, 
> irrespective of whether
>     or not people don’t like my directness, frankness, and discussion.
>     
>     Chris
>     
>     On 11/4/16, 1:09 PM, "Russell Bradberry" 
> <rb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>     
>            - ... we are arguing whether to f'ing moderate it through. Wow. 
> Great
>            job.
>            - Do you think it's healthy to send emails trying to talk shit 
> instead
>            of ...
>            - ... project? Or is Twitter the official list now? Go ahead, 
> I'll wait.
>         
>         
>         Given your behavior and rhetoric on this thread, I believe you lack the
>         professionalism and character to be a board member of anything, let 
> alone
>         representing the Apache Software Foundation and it's ideals. 
> I've CC'd the
>         rest of the Apache board because I would like to formally complain about
>         your divisive rhetoric and overall unprofessional conduct within this
>         mailing list.
>         
>         This list, and community, are made up of individuals and volunteers. I
>         believe, attacking them, even though you believe you may have been
>         attacked, detracts from the conversation and elevates tension in an 
> already
>         tense community.  I encourage others to chime in if I am misreading 
> here. I
>         personally feel that someone acting in a leadership capacity, such as a
>         board member, should be held to a higher standard of professionalism and
>         conduct when doing business; whether it is with their board member hat 
> on
>         or not.  I would hate for it to be assumed that the entire Apache board
>         encourages, promotes, or even acts in this manner.
>         
>         -Russ
>         
>         
>         
>         On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 1:18 PM Mattmann, Chris A (3010) <
>         chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>         
>         > Mark Thomas got it done ✅
>         >
>         > Sent from my iPhone
>         >
>         > > On Nov 4, 2016, at 10:13 AM, Jason Brown 
> <ja...@gmail.com> wrote:
>         > >
>         > > s/sis/is
>         > >
>         > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:12 AM, Jason Brown 
> <ja...@gmail.com>
>         > wrote:
>         > >>
>         > >> Chris,
>         > >>
>         > >> Yes, I would like to be added, and here sis the ticket I 
> filed:
>         > >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-12858.
>         > >>
>         > >> Thanks,
>         > >>
>         > >> -Jason
>         > >>
>         > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Chris Mattmann 
> <ma...@apache.org>
>         > >> wrote:
>         > >>
>         > >>> I have apmail karma and can add moderators.
>         > >>>
>         > >>> Jason I can add you - please confirm you would like to 
> be added. Did
>         > you
>         > >>> file the ticket - if so point me to it. If you 
> haven't yet, no worries
>         > I
>         > >>> can still add you. Let me know. Thanks.
>         > >>>
>         > >>>> On 2016-11-04 09:54 (-0700), Jason Brown 
> <ja...@gmail.com>
>         > wrote:
>         > >>>> Gary,
>         > >>>>
>         > >>>> I've just started looking into the moderator 
> component due to this
>         > >>> thread;
>         > >>>> I admit I did not know about it before (my fault). 
> Yes, I would like
>         > to
>         > >>> be
>         > >>>> added. Apparently, I need to file an INFRA ticket 
> (as per
>         > >>>> 
> https://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mailing-list-moderators),
>         > >>> which
>         > >>>> I will do in the next few minutes.
>         > >>>>
>         > >>>> -Jason
>         > >>>>
>         > >>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Gary Dusbabek 
> <gd...@gmail.com>
>         > >>> wrote:
>         > >>>>
>         > >>>>> I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the 
> only one with moderator privs. Any
>         > >>> other
>         > >>>>> committer/PMCs interested?
>         > >>>>>
>         > >>>>> Sorry, it's a chore to begin with and 
> I've been traveling this week.
>         > >>>>>
>         > >>>>> Gary.
>         > >>>>>
>         > >>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Chris Mattmann 
> <ma...@apache.org>
>         > >>>>> wrote:
>         > >>>>>
>         > >>>>>> Hi Folks,
>         > >>>>>>
>         > >>>>>> Kelly Sommers sent a message to 
> dev@cassandra and I'm trying to
>         > >>> figure
>         > >>>>>> out if it's in moderation.
>         > >>>>>>
>         > >>>>>> Can the moderators speak up?
>         > >>>>>>
>         > >>>>>> Cheers,
>         > >>>>>> Chris
>         > >>>>>>
>         > >>>>>>
>         > >>>>>
>         > >>>>
>         > >>>
>         > >>
>         > >>
>         >
> 

Re: Moderation

[Russell Bradberry <rb...@gmail.com>]

It seems that your tactic of argument is to discredit me at every level in order to show your superiority of sorts.  Let me set this straight, I am not attempting to say that I am an authority on ASF or that I know how things should be run.  I also was not attempting to vilify you in front of the board or vilify you in any way.  My complaint is that your rhetoric is unprofessional; and as a representative of the board the language you use is, plainly, casting a bad light on the ASF.

I understand all of your concerns and was not attempting to minimize them in any way; they are legitimate concerns.  The way you are handling them is what I am concerned with and the tone you take is what I believe is helping divide the community.  Being the “villain” as you say is what is the problem.  If you cast yourself as the villain as a representative of the foundation you are then making the foundation look bad.

Lastly, I may not have a vote, but I do have a voice.  Everyone in the community does and can be heard, if not then it isn’t much of a community at all. I wouldn’t have you voted off the board nor do I want you to be voted off the board, I have not enough information to make a sound decision in that regard.  

All I ask if for some common professionalism and courtesy, nothing more.



On 11/4/16, 4:46 PM, "Chris Mattmann" <ma...@apache.org> wrote:

    Hi Russ,
    
    Sorry that you feel that way. I’m happy to be the villain when it comes to protecting
    those same ideals you cite regarding Apache in your below thread. You see I’ve been
    around since 2004 and elected by the membership to the Board for the last three years
    based on merit, and contributions towards those ideals over a decade of the ASF. 
    I’ve been around longer than Apache Cassandra and this community and fully intend 
    for that to continue. My job is not to only care about Cassandra. It’s to ensure that the 
    ASF is a vendor neutral ground for ALL of its projects. You see I actually understand and 
    have read what’s required of me to serve the membership of the ASF and its communities. 
    I take this VERY seriously. Perhaps more than you know.
    
    You see the other problem with your complaint about me – is that unfortunately you
    do not have a voice to act on that complaint. You won’t have a vote in the next Apache
    Board election. You won’t have a vote in the next Members election. And *that* is
    the rub. I wouldn’t even care if you did or not and you voted against me on the ballot.
    If the Apache Cassandra PMC or community cared enough about you or your contributions
    to the project, you would have been made a committer, or PMC member, long ago, and
    heck you would have even had a chance to become an ASF member where you could do
    more than simply voice your displeasure with my actions, you would be able to vote with
    your feet against my tyranny of trying to make this project’s management committee 
    understand their responsibilities for the ASF. I don’t even consider your requests to have
    me vilified in front of the Board something that would disqualify you for membership in 
    the PMC or committee. If you have been making contributions, even discussion threads,
    answering questions, etc., to the point of your prior emails including this one – why haven’t
    you been elected to have a binding voice within the project? Please ask yourself that. 
    
    In fact, please ask yourself – what is a “Cassandra MVP” compared to a member of the 
    ASF which is home to the project? Also please go look at all the people I’ve been privy and 
    voted on granting membership to within the foundation since 2011, go look at some of the 
    functioning and healthy projects that don’t have a problem with vendor neutrality at the 
    ASF, and *then* come and talk to me about how my professional and character isn’t such 
    to stand on the board of the ASF. Again, I’ll wait.
    
    If it’s a hostile request to ask that a potentially inflammatory Twitter discussion that I attempted
    to bring about to the *source of the project’s discussion here at the ASF* and for a mail summarizing
    that Twitter discussion to be moderated through within 12 hours, and
    for the PMC of an Apache project to understand its commitments regarding having
    geographically diverse moderators for their Apache lists; and if it’s a hostile request to 
    ask that all members of the community including those non committers and/or PMC 
    that take to Twitter to voice their concerns when they are not sure of even where the 
    canonical discussion for the project is have a voice here on the canonical lists for the project
    then there is something fundamentally wrong with the community. I will assert again based 
    on my reading of the facts including archives, code, discussions here and outside of the ASF, abuse 
    of trademarks, vendor non-neutrality, tea leaves and the collective WHOLE of those things that my initial
    request to bring the conversation on list -  that was met with the usual random drive by vitriol and my follow
    up asking how in the bleeping world there were at least 3 emails questioning whether or not an email
    should be moderated though - was warranted. 
    
    I state this as someone who has seen Apache projects come and go and will 
    continue to see that, even ones at the same level of interest as Cassandra (and much 
    much more too as well). If it’s hostile for a Board member to drive the discussions to 
    the mailing list instead of outside sources, then my apologies for my hostility. You will
    continue to get that apology as I continue to do my job and what I signed up to do as an
    ASF board member in terms of maintaining that vendor neutrality, irrespective of whether
    or not people don’t like my directness, frankness, and discussion.
    
    Chris
    
    On 11/4/16, 1:09 PM, "Russell Bradberry" <rb...@gmail.com> wrote:
    
           - ... we are arguing whether to f'ing moderate it through. Wow. Great
           job.
           - Do you think it's healthy to send emails trying to talk shit instead
           of ...
           - ... project? Or is Twitter the official list now? Go ahead, I'll wait.
        
        
        Given your behavior and rhetoric on this thread, I believe you lack the
        professionalism and character to be a board member of anything, let alone
        representing the Apache Software Foundation and it's ideals. I've CC'd the
        rest of the Apache board because I would like to formally complain about
        your divisive rhetoric and overall unprofessional conduct within this
        mailing list.
        
        This list, and community, are made up of individuals and volunteers. I
        believe, attacking them, even though you believe you may have been
        attacked, detracts from the conversation and elevates tension in an already
        tense community.  I encourage others to chime in if I am misreading here. I
        personally feel that someone acting in a leadership capacity, such as a
        board member, should be held to a higher standard of professionalism and
        conduct when doing business; whether it is with their board member hat on
        or not.  I would hate for it to be assumed that the entire Apache board
        encourages, promotes, or even acts in this manner.
        
        -Russ
        
        
        
        On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 1:18 PM Mattmann, Chris A (3010) <
        chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
        
        > Mark Thomas got it done ✅
        >
        > Sent from my iPhone
        >
        > > On Nov 4, 2016, at 10:13 AM, Jason Brown <ja...@gmail.com> wrote:
        > >
        > > s/sis/is
        > >
        > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:12 AM, Jason Brown <ja...@gmail.com>
        > wrote:
        > >>
        > >> Chris,
        > >>
        > >> Yes, I would like to be added, and here sis the ticket I filed:
        > >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-12858.
        > >>
        > >> Thanks,
        > >>
        > >> -Jason
        > >>
        > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org>
        > >> wrote:
        > >>
        > >>> I have apmail karma and can add moderators.
        > >>>
        > >>> Jason I can add you - please confirm you would like to be added. Did
        > you
        > >>> file the ticket - if so point me to it. If you haven't yet, no worries
        > I
        > >>> can still add you. Let me know. Thanks.
        > >>>
        > >>>> On 2016-11-04 09:54 (-0700), Jason Brown <ja...@gmail.com>
        > wrote:
        > >>>> Gary,
        > >>>>
        > >>>> I've just started looking into the moderator component due to this
        > >>> thread;
        > >>>> I admit I did not know about it before (my fault). Yes, I would like
        > to
        > >>> be
        > >>>> added. Apparently, I need to file an INFRA ticket (as per
        > >>>> https://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mailing-list-moderators),
        > >>> which
        > >>>> I will do in the next few minutes.
        > >>>>
        > >>>> -Jason
        > >>>>
        > >>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Gary Dusbabek <gd...@gmail.com>
        > >>> wrote:
        > >>>>
        > >>>>> I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the only one with moderator privs. Any
        > >>> other
        > >>>>> committer/PMCs interested?
        > >>>>>
        > >>>>> Sorry, it's a chore to begin with and I've been traveling this week.
        > >>>>>
        > >>>>> Gary.
        > >>>>>
        > >>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org>
        > >>>>> wrote:
        > >>>>>
        > >>>>>> Hi Folks,
        > >>>>>>
        > >>>>>> Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying to
        > >>> figure
        > >>>>>> out if it's in moderation.
        > >>>>>>
        > >>>>>> Can the moderators speak up?
        > >>>>>>
        > >>>>>> Cheers,
        > >>>>>> Chris
        > >>>>>>
        > >>>>>>
        > >>>>>
        > >>>>
        > >>>
        > >>
        > >>
        >
        
    
    
    

Re: Moderation

[Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org>]

Hi Russ,

Sorry that you feel that way. I’m happy to be the villain when it comes to protecting
those same ideals you cite regarding Apache in your below thread. You see I’ve been
around since 2004 and elected by the membership to the Board for the last three years
based on merit, and contributions towards those ideals over a decade of the ASF. 
I’ve been around longer than Apache Cassandra and this community and fully intend 
for that to continue. My job is not to only care about Cassandra. It’s to ensure that the 
ASF is a vendor neutral ground for ALL of its projects. You see I actually understand and 
have read what’s required of me to serve the membership of the ASF and its communities. 
I take this VERY seriously. Perhaps more than you know.

You see the other problem with your complaint about me – is that unfortunately you
do not have a voice to act on that complaint. You won’t have a vote in the next Apache
Board election. You won’t have a vote in the next Members election. And *that* is
the rub. I wouldn’t even care if you did or not and you voted against me on the ballot.
If the Apache Cassandra PMC or community cared enough about you or your contributions
to the project, you would have been made a committer, or PMC member, long ago, and
heck you would have even had a chance to become an ASF member where you could do
more than simply voice your displeasure with my actions, you would be able to vote with
your feet against my tyranny of trying to make this project’s management committee 
understand their responsibilities for the ASF. I don’t even consider your requests to have
me vilified in front of the Board something that would disqualify you for membership in 
the PMC or committee. If you have been making contributions, even discussion threads,
answering questions, etc., to the point of your prior emails including this one – why haven’t
you been elected to have a binding voice within the project? Please ask yourself that. 

In fact, please ask yourself – what is a “Cassandra MVP” compared to a member of the 
ASF which is home to the project? Also please go look at all the people I’ve been privy and 
voted on granting membership to within the foundation since 2011, go look at some of the 
functioning and healthy projects that don’t have a problem with vendor neutrality at the 
ASF, and *then* come and talk to me about how my professional and character isn’t such 
to stand on the board of the ASF. Again, I’ll wait.

If it’s a hostile request to ask that a potentially inflammatory Twitter discussion that I attempted
to bring about to the *source of the project’s discussion here at the ASF* and for a mail summarizing
that Twitter discussion to be moderated through within 12 hours, and
for the PMC of an Apache project to understand its commitments regarding having
geographically diverse moderators for their Apache lists; and if it’s a hostile request to 
ask that all members of the community including those non committers and/or PMC 
that take to Twitter to voice their concerns when they are not sure of even where the 
canonical discussion for the project is have a voice here on the canonical lists for the project
then there is something fundamentally wrong with the community. I will assert again based 
on my reading of the facts including archives, code, discussions here and outside of the ASF, abuse 
of trademarks, vendor non-neutrality, tea leaves and the collective WHOLE of those things that my initial
request to bring the conversation on list -  that was met with the usual random drive by vitriol and my follow
up asking how in the bleeping world there were at least 3 emails questioning whether or not an email
should be moderated though - was warranted. 

I state this as someone who has seen Apache projects come and go and will 
continue to see that, even ones at the same level of interest as Cassandra (and much 
much more too as well). If it’s hostile for a Board member to drive the discussions to 
the mailing list instead of outside sources, then my apologies for my hostility. You will
continue to get that apology as I continue to do my job and what I signed up to do as an
ASF board member in terms of maintaining that vendor neutrality, irrespective of whether
or not people don’t like my directness, frankness, and discussion.

Chris

On 11/4/16, 1:09 PM, "Russell Bradberry" <rb...@gmail.com> wrote:

       - ... we are arguing whether to f'ing moderate it through. Wow. Great
       job.
       - Do you think it's healthy to send emails trying to talk shit instead
       of ...
       - ... project? Or is Twitter the official list now? Go ahead, I'll wait.
    
    
    Given your behavior and rhetoric on this thread, I believe you lack the
    professionalism and character to be a board member of anything, let alone
    representing the Apache Software Foundation and it's ideals. I've CC'd the
    rest of the Apache board because I would like to formally complain about
    your divisive rhetoric and overall unprofessional conduct within this
    mailing list.
    
    This list, and community, are made up of individuals and volunteers. I
    believe, attacking them, even though you believe you may have been
    attacked, detracts from the conversation and elevates tension in an already
    tense community.  I encourage others to chime in if I am misreading here. I
    personally feel that someone acting in a leadership capacity, such as a
    board member, should be held to a higher standard of professionalism and
    conduct when doing business; whether it is with their board member hat on
    or not.  I would hate for it to be assumed that the entire Apache board
    encourages, promotes, or even acts in this manner.
    
    -Russ
    
    
    
    On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 1:18 PM Mattmann, Chris A (3010) <
    chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
    
    > Mark Thomas got it done ✅
    >
    > Sent from my iPhone
    >
    > > On Nov 4, 2016, at 10:13 AM, Jason Brown <ja...@gmail.com> wrote:
    > >
    > > s/sis/is
    > >
    > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:12 AM, Jason Brown <ja...@gmail.com>
    > wrote:
    > >>
    > >> Chris,
    > >>
    > >> Yes, I would like to be added, and here sis the ticket I filed:
    > >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-12858.
    > >>
    > >> Thanks,
    > >>
    > >> -Jason
    > >>
    > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org>
    > >> wrote:
    > >>
    > >>> I have apmail karma and can add moderators.
    > >>>
    > >>> Jason I can add you - please confirm you would like to be added. Did
    > you
    > >>> file the ticket - if so point me to it. If you haven't yet, no worries
    > I
    > >>> can still add you. Let me know. Thanks.
    > >>>
    > >>>> On 2016-11-04 09:54 (-0700), Jason Brown <ja...@gmail.com>
    > wrote:
    > >>>> Gary,
    > >>>>
    > >>>> I've just started looking into the moderator component due to this
    > >>> thread;
    > >>>> I admit I did not know about it before (my fault). Yes, I would like
    > to
    > >>> be
    > >>>> added. Apparently, I need to file an INFRA ticket (as per
    > >>>> https://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mailing-list-moderators),
    > >>> which
    > >>>> I will do in the next few minutes.
    > >>>>
    > >>>> -Jason
    > >>>>
    > >>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Gary Dusbabek <gd...@gmail.com>
    > >>> wrote:
    > >>>>
    > >>>>> I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the only one with moderator privs. Any
    > >>> other
    > >>>>> committer/PMCs interested?
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>> Sorry, it's a chore to begin with and I've been traveling this week.
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>> Gary.
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org>
    > >>>>> wrote:
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>>> Hi Folks,
    > >>>>>>
    > >>>>>> Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying to
    > >>> figure
    > >>>>>> out if it's in moderation.
    > >>>>>>
    > >>>>>> Can the moderators speak up?
    > >>>>>>
    > >>>>>> Cheers,
    > >>>>>> Chris
    > >>>>>>
    > >>>>>>
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>
    > >>>
    > >>
    > >>
    >
    

Re: Moderation

[Russell Bradberry <rb...@gmail.com>]

   - ... we are arguing whether to f'ing moderate it through. Wow. Great
   job.
   - Do you think it's healthy to send emails trying to talk shit instead
   of ...
   - ... project? Or is Twitter the official list now? Go ahead, I'll wait.


Given your behavior and rhetoric on this thread, I believe you lack the
professionalism and character to be a board member of anything, let alone
representing the Apache Software Foundation and it's ideals. I've CC'd the
rest of the Apache board because I would like to formally complain about
your divisive rhetoric and overall unprofessional conduct within this
mailing list.

This list, and community, are made up of individuals and volunteers. I
believe, attacking them, even though you believe you may have been
attacked, detracts from the conversation and elevates tension in an already
tense community.  I encourage others to chime in if I am misreading here. I
personally feel that someone acting in a leadership capacity, such as a
board member, should be held to a higher standard of professionalism and
conduct when doing business; whether it is with their board member hat on
or not.  I would hate for it to be assumed that the entire Apache board
encourages, promotes, or even acts in this manner.

-Russ



On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 1:18 PM Mattmann, Chris A (3010) <
chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:

> Mark Thomas got it done ✅
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Nov 4, 2016, at 10:13 AM, Jason Brown <ja...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > s/sis/is
> >
> >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:12 AM, Jason Brown <ja...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Chris,
> >>
> >> Yes, I would like to be added, and here sis the ticket I filed:
> >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-12858.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> -Jason
> >>
> >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I have apmail karma and can add moderators.
> >>>
> >>> Jason I can add you - please confirm you would like to be added. Did
> you
> >>> file the ticket - if so point me to it. If you haven't yet, no worries
> I
> >>> can still add you. Let me know. Thanks.
> >>>
> >>>> On 2016-11-04 09:54 (-0700), Jason Brown <ja...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>> Gary,
> >>>>
> >>>> I've just started looking into the moderator component due to this
> >>> thread;
> >>>> I admit I did not know about it before (my fault). Yes, I would like
> to
> >>> be
> >>>> added. Apparently, I need to file an INFRA ticket (as per
> >>>> https://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mailing-list-moderators),
> >>> which
> >>>> I will do in the next few minutes.
> >>>>
> >>>> -Jason
> >>>>
> >>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Gary Dusbabek <gd...@gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the only one with moderator privs. Any
> >>> other
> >>>>> committer/PMCs interested?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sorry, it's a chore to begin with and I've been traveling this week.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Gary.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Hi Folks,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying to
> >>> figure
> >>>>>> out if it's in moderation.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Can the moderators speak up?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>> Chris
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
>

Re: Moderation

["Mattmann, Chris A (3010)" <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov>]

Mark Thomas got it done ✅ 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 4, 2016, at 10:13 AM, Jason Brown <ja...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> s/sis/is
> 
>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:12 AM, Jason Brown <ja...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Chris,
>> 
>> Yes, I would like to be added, and here sis the ticket I filed:
>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-12858.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> -Jason
>> 
>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> I have apmail karma and can add moderators.
>>> 
>>> Jason I can add you - please confirm you would like to be added. Did you
>>> file the ticket - if so point me to it. If you haven't yet, no worries I
>>> can still add you. Let me know. Thanks.
>>> 
>>>> On 2016-11-04 09:54 (-0700), Jason Brown <ja...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Gary,
>>>> 
>>>> I've just started looking into the moderator component due to this
>>> thread;
>>>> I admit I did not know about it before (my fault). Yes, I would like to
>>> be
>>>> added. Apparently, I need to file an INFRA ticket (as per
>>>> https://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mailing-list-moderators),
>>> which
>>>> I will do in the next few minutes.
>>>> 
>>>> -Jason
>>>> 
>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Gary Dusbabek <gd...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the only one with moderator privs. Any
>>> other
>>>>> committer/PMCs interested?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sorry, it's a chore to begin with and I've been traveling this week.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Gary.
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi Folks,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying to
>>> figure
>>>>>> out if it's in moderation.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Can the moderators speak up?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Chris
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 

Re: Moderation

[Jason Brown <ja...@gmail.com>]

s/sis/is

On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:12 AM, Jason Brown <ja...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Chris,
>
> Yes, I would like to be added, and here sis the ticket I filed:
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-12858.
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Jason
>
> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
>> I have apmail karma and can add moderators.
>>
>> Jason I can add you - please confirm you would like to be added. Did you
>> file the ticket - if so point me to it. If you haven't yet, no worries I
>> can still add you. Let me know. Thanks.
>>
>> On 2016-11-04 09:54 (-0700), Jason Brown <ja...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Gary,
>> >
>> > I've just started looking into the moderator component due to this
>> thread;
>> > I admit I did not know about it before (my fault). Yes, I would like to
>> be
>> > added. Apparently, I need to file an INFRA ticket (as per
>> > https://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mailing-list-moderators),
>> which
>> > I will do in the next few minutes.
>> >
>> > -Jason
>> >
>> > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Gary Dusbabek <gd...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > > I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the only one with moderator privs. Any
>> other
>> > > committer/PMCs interested?
>> > >
>> > > Sorry, it's a chore to begin with and I've been traveling this week.
>> > >
>> > > Gary.
>> > >
>> > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org>
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Hi Folks,
>> > > >
>> > > > Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying to
>> figure
>> > > > out if it's in moderation.
>> > > >
>> > > > Can the moderators speak up?
>> > > >
>> > > > Cheers,
>> > > > Chris
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
>
>

Re: Moderation

[Jason Brown <ja...@gmail.com>]

Chris,

Yes, I would like to be added, and here sis the ticket I filed:
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-12858.

Thanks,

-Jason

On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org> wrote:

> I have apmail karma and can add moderators.
>
> Jason I can add you - please confirm you would like to be added. Did you
> file the ticket - if so point me to it. If you haven't yet, no worries I
> can still add you. Let me know. Thanks.
>
> On 2016-11-04 09:54 (-0700), Jason Brown <ja...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Gary,
> >
> > I've just started looking into the moderator component due to this
> thread;
> > I admit I did not know about it before (my fault). Yes, I would like to
> be
> > added. Apparently, I need to file an INFRA ticket (as per
> > https://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mailing-list-moderators),
> which
> > I will do in the next few minutes.
> >
> > -Jason
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Gary Dusbabek <gd...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the only one with moderator privs. Any
> other
> > > committer/PMCs interested?
> > >
> > > Sorry, it's a chore to begin with and I've been traveling this week.
> > >
> > > Gary.
> > >
> > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Folks,
> > > >
> > > > Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying to
> figure
> > > > out if it's in moderation.
> > > >
> > > > Can the moderators speak up?
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Chris
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Re: Moderation

[Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org>]

I have apmail karma and can add moderators. 

Jason I can add you - please confirm you would like to be added. Did you file the ticket - if so point me to it. If you haven't yet, no worries I can still add you. Let me know. Thanks.

On 2016-11-04 09:54 (-0700), Jason Brown <ja...@gmail.com> wrote: 
> Gary,
> 
> I've just started looking into the moderator component due to this thread;
> I admit I did not know about it before (my fault). Yes, I would like to be
> added. Apparently, I need to file an INFRA ticket (as per
> https://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mailing-list-moderators), which
> I will do in the next few minutes.
> 
> -Jason
> 
> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Gary Dusbabek <gd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the only one with moderator privs. Any other
> > committer/PMCs interested?
> >
> > Sorry, it's a chore to begin with and I've been traveling this week.
> >
> > Gary.
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Folks,
> > >
> > > Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying to figure
> > > out if it's in moderation.
> > >
> > > Can the moderators speak up?
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Chris
> > >
> > >
> >
> 

Re: Moderation

[Jason Brown <ja...@gmail.com>]

Gary,

I've just started looking into the moderator component due to this thread;
I admit I did not know about it before (my fault). Yes, I would like to be
added. Apparently, I need to file an INFRA ticket (as per
https://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mailing-list-moderators), which
I will do in the next few minutes.

-Jason

On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Gary Dusbabek <gd...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the only one with moderator privs. Any other
> committer/PMCs interested?
>
> Sorry, it's a chore to begin with and I've been traveling this week.
>
> Gary.
>
> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Folks,
> >
> > Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying to figure
> > out if it's in moderation.
> >
> > Can the moderators speak up?
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Chris
> >
> >
>

Re: Moderation

[Gary Dusbabek <gd...@gmail.com>]

I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the only one with moderator privs. Any other
committer/PMCs interested?

Sorry, it's a chore to begin with and I've been traveling this week.

Gary.

On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org> wrote:

> Hi Folks,
>
> Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying to figure
> out if it's in moderation.
>
> Can the moderators speak up?
>
> Cheers,
> Chris
>
>