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Posted to dev@avalon.apache.org by Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org> on 2001/07/16 16:21:37 UTC
New Avalon Docs
The Avalon web site has been updated recently to publish the
"Developing with Apache Avalon" whitepaper I wrote--originally
for the ApacheCon. It is in HTML, as I have not had the time
to convert it to PDF yet.
In it, you will find alot of userful information about the
inner workings of Avalon's Framework, and the design patterns
surrounding it. Because Avalon is what Cocoon is built on,
you will find out how and why Cocoon is architected.
Please feel free to comment on the paper.
Re: New Avalon Docs
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>.
Marc van Kempen wrote:
>Berin Loritsch wrote:
>
>>Berin Loritsch wrote:
>>
>>>The Avalon web site has been updated recently to publish the
>>>"Developing with Apache Avalon" whitepaper I wrote--originally
>>>for the ApacheCon. It is in HTML, as I have not had the time
>>>to convert it to PDF yet.
>>>
>>I almost forgot to meantion:
>>
>>The source docs are in DocBook 4.1 format, and are automatically
>>generated using Cocoon 2. The flexibility of this approach is
>>far better than Stylebook. It is also a bit heavier.
>>
>Hi Berin,
>
>Any chance of releasing ps or pdf versions, as it is now it has to be read from
>the browser since the text is too wide to print properly!
>
Since the source code is in DocBook format, you are welcome to use any
of your regular
DocBook generation tools to create a PDF/PS/RTF. I have not gotten
around to creating
the docbook2fo.xsl file for transforming the book yet.
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Re: New Avalon Docs
Posted by Marc van Kempen <ma...@bowtie.nl>.
Berin Loritsch wrote:
>
> Berin Loritsch wrote:
> >
> > The Avalon web site has been updated recently to publish the
> > "Developing with Apache Avalon" whitepaper I wrote--originally
> > for the ApacheCon. It is in HTML, as I have not had the time
> > to convert it to PDF yet.
>
> I almost forgot to meantion:
>
> The source docs are in DocBook 4.1 format, and are automatically
> generated using Cocoon 2. The flexibility of this approach is
> far better than Stylebook. It is also a bit heavier.
Hi Berin,
Any chance of releasing ps or pdf versions, as it is now it has to be read from
the browser since the text is too wide to print properly!
Regards,
Marc.
--
----------------------------------------------------
Marc van Kempen tel. +31 40 2 64 98 60
BowTie Technology fax. +31 40 2 64 98 61
Raiffeisenstraat 7 mailto:marc@bowtie.nl
5611 CH Eindhoven http://www.bowtie.nl
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Re: New Avalon Docs
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>.
Berin Loritsch wrote:
>
> The Avalon web site has been updated recently to publish the
> "Developing with Apache Avalon" whitepaper I wrote--originally
> for the ApacheCon. It is in HTML, as I have not had the time
> to convert it to PDF yet.
I almost forgot to meantion:
The source docs are in DocBook 4.1 format, and are automatically
generated using Cocoon 2. The flexibility of this approach is
far better than Stylebook. It is also a bit heavier.
Re: New Avalon Docs
Posted by Peter Donald <do...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 17 Jul 2001 05:57, Uli Mayring wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Jul 2001, Berin Loritsch wrote:
> > What needs to be done is a Phoenix specific implementation for Cocoon's
> > Environment interfaces--and publish the Service interface and write
> > a descriptor.
> >
> > The hardest part is the Environment integration.
>
> I'm still in the process of getting used to identifying the various
> components of Avalon seperately. For me Phoenix always was an integral
> part of Avalon and I can't see how to use Avalon without it - but Cocoon2
> proves that Phoenix is just one server implementation using the Avalon
> framework. I'll get this straightened out in my head someday :)
;)
> Perhaps it would be useful to take Cocoon apart into several blocks, so
> that various people could select the parts they want and build their own
> XML server. Once I learn more about Avalon, I'll be able to tell if it
> would make sense to get my hands on that.
I guess the thing to do in the case of Cocoon is to analyze which things are
"services" (ie candidate blocks) and which are sub-components of blocks. My
first guess would be that you would have at least two services from Cocoon.
The first service would be the XML processing engine. It basically accepted
definitions of transformers, generators, serializers etc.
The second one would be the sitemap service that compiled and implemented
sitemaps. It would use the XML processing engine to implement it but perform
all the logic itself.
Cheers,
Pete
*-----------------------------------------------------*
| "Faced with the choice between changing one's mind, |
| and proving that there is no need to do so - almost |
| everyone gets busy on the proof." |
| - John Kenneth Galbraith |
*-----------------------------------------------------*
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Re: New Avalon Docs
Posted by Uli Mayring <ul...@denic.de>.
On Mon, 16 Jul 2001, Berin Loritsch wrote:
> What needs to be done is a Phoenix specific implementation for Cocoon's
> Environment interfaces--and publish the Service interface and write
> a descriptor.
>
> The hardest part is the Environment integration.
I'm still in the process of getting used to identifying the various
components of Avalon seperately. For me Phoenix always was an integral
part of Avalon and I can't see how to use Avalon without it - but Cocoon2
proves that Phoenix is just one server implementation using the Avalon
framework. I'll get this straightened out in my head someday :)
Perhaps it would be useful to take Cocoon apart into several blocks, so
that various people could select the parts they want and build their own
XML server. Once I learn more about Avalon, I'll be able to tell if it
would make sense to get my hands on that.
Our in-house applications that I'm working on take this approach. We have
blocks like a JDBCManager, a JMXManager, a JNDIManager and so on. Then one
app may be split into a "Writer" block, a "Reader" block, a "Controller"
block etc. - it looks like fun to decompose applications like that and
then re-use the blocks in other apps. How it plays out in the long run
will be interesting to observe. In all my career of software development
I've never managed to attain a sensible level of re-use, because usually
when the apps worked, they were either rarely touched anymore or
completely replaced one day. So to me ease of development (time to market)
and ease of debugging (responsiveness to the market) was always more
important than abstraction and re-usability. But I'm willing to try again,
Avalon looks sufficiently sophisticated to give it a shot :)
Thanks for the info,
Ulrich
--
Ulrich Mayring
DENIC eG, Softwareentwicklung
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Re: New Avalon Docs
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>.
Ulrich Mayring wrote:
>
> Berin Loritsch wrote:
> >
> > In it, you will find alot of userful information about the
> > inner workings of Avalon's Framework, and the design patterns
> > surrounding it. Because Avalon is what Cocoon is built on,
> > you will find out how and why Cocoon is architected.
> >
> > Please feel free to comment on the paper.
>
> Is there a particular reason why Cocoon2 is not integrated into Avalon
> as a .sar application or a block? I noticed some parts of Avalon are
> distributed with Cocoon2 in the form of an "avalon.jar" - is that the
> recommended way to distribute applications using the Avalon framework?
For Cocoon to be used as a Web service (aka Servlet), it must have all
the classes used. Therefore, it needs the avalon jars (avalon-framework.jar
and avalon-excalibur.jar). When it is embedded in a Avalon Phoenix server,
then it needs the .sar approach. At this time, there has been little
investment of time into making Cocoon an embedded service for Phoenix.
While it is possible, there really hasn't been a clammoring need for
it yet. If you are willing to put in the effort, then by all means,
we would be more than happy to have the assistance.
What needs to be done is a Phoenix specific implementation for Cocoon's
Environment interfaces--and publish the Service interface and write
a descriptor.
The hardest part is the Environment integration.
Re: New Avalon Docs
Posted by Ulrich Mayring <ul...@denic.de>.
Berin Loritsch wrote:
>
> In it, you will find alot of userful information about the
> inner workings of Avalon's Framework, and the design patterns
> surrounding it. Because Avalon is what Cocoon is built on,
> you will find out how and why Cocoon is architected.
>
> Please feel free to comment on the paper.
Is there a particular reason why Cocoon2 is not integrated into Avalon
as a .sar application or a block? I noticed some parts of Avalon are
distributed with Cocoon2 in the form of an "avalon.jar" - is that the
recommended way to distribute applications using the Avalon framework?
Ulrich
--
Ulrich Mayring
DENIC eG, Systementwicklung
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Re: New Avalon Docs
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>.
Berin Loritsch wrote:
>
> The Avalon web site has been updated recently to publish the
> "Developing with Apache Avalon" whitepaper I wrote--originally
> for the ApacheCon. It is in HTML, as I have not had the time
> to convert it to PDF yet.
I almost forgot to meantion:
The source docs are in DocBook 4.1 format, and are automatically
generated using Cocoon 2. The flexibility of this approach is
far better than Stylebook. It is also a bit heavier.
Re: New Avalon Docs
Posted by Peter Donald <do...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 17 Jul 2001 03:27, Berin Loritsch wrote:
> > My only request would be more information on the phoenix systems. I know
> > that is the direction I need to take my RMI server program in, but I'm
> > not quite sure how to integrate it yet. I sometimes find it hard getting
> > a feel for a project without seeing a working implementation, even if it
> > is very simple. (I had the "awakening" of the benefits of avalon after
> > thoroughly reviewing c2's code).
>
> That will eventually come. There is a question whether we may want to
> create a new "book" that addresses this, or augment the existing one with
> a continuation on our system.
My gut feeling is a bit of both. Some patterns and designs are application
server specific. Others are more generally useful. So I would say we could
start with a new book but gradually migrate back material as appropriate.
Cheers,
Pete
*-----------------------------------------------------*
| "Faced with the choice between changing one's mind, |
| and proving that there is no need to do so - almost |
| everyone gets busy on the proof." |
| - John Kenneth Galbraith |
*-----------------------------------------------------*
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Re: New Avalon Docs
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>.
Peter Royal wrote:
>
> At 10:21 AM 7/16/2001 -0400, you wrote:
> >Please feel free to comment on the paper.
>
> very useful! thank you for making it public. i recently converted the
> non-cocoon2 piece of the application we are developing to the avalon
> framework and it has helped development immensely. It is great to see many
> of the avalon idioms written down, as I was not aware of some of them just
> by reading the mailing lists/viewing the code.
You are welcome. It is exciting to here good news.
> My only request would be more information on the phoenix systems. I know
> that is the direction I need to take my RMI server program in, but I'm not
> quite sure how to integrate it yet. I sometimes find it hard getting a feel
> for a project without seeing a working implementation, even if it is very
> simple. (I had the "awakening" of the benefits of avalon after thoroughly
> reviewing c2's code).
That will eventually come. There is a question whether we may want to
create a new "book" that addresses this, or augment the existing one with
a continuation on our system. Again, this is also something that has yet
to be written and tested out. Without a Beta for Pheonix, I would tend
to lean towards an independant "book". Since I have limited time, and I
am concentrating on building web applications for a living, I have been
focused on Cocoon.
> Keep up the good work!
> -pete
Thank you.
Re: New Avalon Docs
Posted by Peter Royal <pr...@managingpartners.com>.
At 10:21 AM 7/16/2001 -0400, you wrote:
>Please feel free to comment on the paper.
very useful! thank you for making it public. i recently converted the
non-cocoon2 piece of the application we are developing to the avalon
framework and it has helped development immensely. It is great to see many
of the avalon idioms written down, as I was not aware of some of them just
by reading the mailing lists/viewing the code.
My only request would be more information on the phoenix systems. I know
that is the direction I need to take my RMI server program in, but I'm not
quite sure how to integrate it yet. I sometimes find it hard getting a feel
for a project without seeing a working implementation, even if it is very
simple. (I had the "awakening" of the benefits of avalon after thoroughly
reviewing c2's code).
Keep up the good work!
-pete
--
peter royal -> proyal@managingpartners.com
managing partners, inc. -> http://www.managingpartners.com
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