[VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half
of them less than five minutes ago.

This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists.
The proposal is to combine them as follows:

log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
dev@logging.apache.org
log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
user@logging.apache.org

commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.

The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the
combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish
between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:

[java]
[net]
[cxx]
[php]

Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in
gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.

Voting:

+1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
+0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
-0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
-1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!

This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no
-1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open
for at least 72 hours.

-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Remko Popma <re...@gmail.com>]

log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org

+1

log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org

Interesting discussion. I can see both pros and cons. How will this work for users currently subscribed to log4j-user@? Will they need to resubscribe or is this done with aliasing? If this is done with aliasing we can try it and easily undo it if it turns out it doesn't work well, and I would be +1 to give it a try. 


Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 8, 2017, at 16:21, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I don't see much on the user mailing lists either. Sometimes I'll post questions there myself, but I see other developers sticking to the dev lists for their own user questions. It's interesting.
> 
>> On 8 March 2017 at 01:16, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> +1
>> 
>> I think that the activity on the user mailing lists is low enough such that the users are not dragged away, while at the same time they take advantages of the larger audience. Further it tightens the relationship between the logging subprojects.
>> 
>> 
>>> On 2017-03-08 06:12, Stefan Bodewig wrote:
>>> On 2017-03-08, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half
>>>> of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists.
>>>> The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>> +1
>>> 
>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
>>>> user@logging.apache.org
>>> -1
>>> 
>>> I don't think the users would benefit from a shared list and would
>>> prefer to keep them separate (this is not a veto, just a vote).
>>> 
>>> Stefan
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: log4j-dev-unsubscribe@logging.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: log4j-dev-help@logging.apache.org
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: log4j-dev-unsubscribe@logging.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: log4j-dev-help@logging.apache.org
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

I don't see much on the user mailing lists either. Sometimes I'll post
questions there myself, but I see other developers sticking to the dev
lists for their own user questions. It's interesting.

On 8 March 2017 at 01:16, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> wrote:

> +1
>
> I think that the activity on the user mailing lists is low enough such
> that the users are not dragged away, while at the same time they take
> advantages of the larger audience. Further it tightens the relationship
> between the logging subprojects.
>
>
> On 2017-03-08 06:12, Stefan Bodewig wrote:
>
>> On 2017-03-08, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>
>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half
>>> of them less than five minutes ago.
>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing
>>> lists.
>>> The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>
>> +1
>>
>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
>>> user@logging.apache.org
>>>
>> -1
>>
>> I don't think the users would benefit from a shared list and would
>> prefer to keep them separate (this is not a veto, just a vote).
>>
>> Stefan
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: log4j-dev-unsubscribe@logging.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: log4j-dev-help@logging.apache.org
>>
>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: log4j-dev-unsubscribe@logging.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: log4j-dev-help@logging.apache.org
>
>


-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>]

+1

I think that the activity on the user mailing lists is low enough such 
that the users are not dragged away, while at the same time they take 
advantages of the larger audience. Further it tightens the relationship 
between the logging subprojects.

On 2017-03-08 06:12, Stefan Bodewig wrote:
> On 2017-03-08, Matt Sicker wrote:
>
>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half
>> of them less than five minutes ago.
>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists.
>> The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>> dev@logging.apache.org
> +1
>
>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
>> user@logging.apache.org
> -1
>
> I don't think the users would benefit from a shared list and would
> prefer to keep them separate (this is not a veto, just a vote).
>
> Stefan
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: log4j-dev-unsubscribe@logging.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: log4j-dev-help@logging.apache.org
>


---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: log4j-dev-unsubscribe@logging.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: log4j-dev-help@logging.apache.org

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Stefan Bodewig <bo...@apache.org>]

On 2017-03-08, Matt Sicker wrote:

> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half
> of them less than five minutes ago.

> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists.
> The proposal is to combine them as follows:

> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
> dev@logging.apache.org

+1

> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
> user@logging.apache.org

-1

I don't think the users would benefit from a shared list and would
prefer to keep them separate (this is not a veto, just a vote).

Stefan

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

No wait, the lazy voting thing at Commons is just the same form we use for
code, just with an email plus a 72 hour notice. Makes sense for repository
changes since those are a pain to reverse once the format is changed to git.

On 7 March 2017 at 23:07, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The -1 thing is mentioned here <https://logging.apache.org/guidelines.html>
> regarding a -1 being a veto for anything consensus-related (generally
> anything to do with adding or removing committers/PMCs). I suppose in that
> context, a mailing list change probably falls under lazy majority, though
> whatever it is we're doing at Commons for lazy votes isn't on that page.
>
> On 7 March 2017 at 22:59, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>
>> +1
>>
>> Note that generally a -1 is a veto only on code commits. On everything
>> else it just means you are against the proposal. However, we generally
>> strive for consensus so great weight is given to binding votes that are
>> opposed.
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>> On Mar 7, 2017, at 9:23 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> This is my +1.
>>
>> If this is the incorrect voting format and we need to do a 2/3 majority
>> instead, please veto this and let me know. This situation is not spelled
>> out in the bylaws.
>>
>> On 7 March 2017 at 22:20, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to
>>> half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>
>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing
>>> lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>
>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
>>> user@logging.apache.org
>>>
>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>
>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for
>>> the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To
>>> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>
>>> [java]
>>> [net]
>>> [cxx]
>>> [php]
>>>
>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in
>>> gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>
>>> Voting:
>>>
>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>
>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no
>>> -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open
>>> for at least 72 hours.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>



-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

No wait, the lazy voting thing at Commons is just the same form we use for
code, just with an email plus a 72 hour notice. Makes sense for repository
changes since those are a pain to reverse once the format is changed to git.

On 7 March 2017 at 23:07, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The -1 thing is mentioned here <https://logging.apache.org/guidelines.html>
> regarding a -1 being a veto for anything consensus-related (generally
> anything to do with adding or removing committers/PMCs). I suppose in that
> context, a mailing list change probably falls under lazy majority, though
> whatever it is we're doing at Commons for lazy votes isn't on that page.
>
> On 7 March 2017 at 22:59, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>
>> +1
>>
>> Note that generally a -1 is a veto only on code commits. On everything
>> else it just means you are against the proposal. However, we generally
>> strive for consensus so great weight is given to binding votes that are
>> opposed.
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>> On Mar 7, 2017, at 9:23 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> This is my +1.
>>
>> If this is the incorrect voting format and we need to do a 2/3 majority
>> instead, please veto this and let me know. This situation is not spelled
>> out in the bylaws.
>>
>> On 7 March 2017 at 22:20, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to
>>> half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>
>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing
>>> lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>
>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
>>> user@logging.apache.org
>>>
>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>
>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for
>>> the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To
>>> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>
>>> [java]
>>> [net]
>>> [cxx]
>>> [php]
>>>
>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in
>>> gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>
>>> Voting:
>>>
>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>
>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no
>>> -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open
>>> for at least 72 hours.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>



-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

No wait, the lazy voting thing at Commons is just the same form we use for
code, just with an email plus a 72 hour notice. Makes sense for repository
changes since those are a pain to reverse once the format is changed to git.

On 7 March 2017 at 23:07, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The -1 thing is mentioned here <https://logging.apache.org/guidelines.html>
> regarding a -1 being a veto for anything consensus-related (generally
> anything to do with adding or removing committers/PMCs). I suppose in that
> context, a mailing list change probably falls under lazy majority, though
> whatever it is we're doing at Commons for lazy votes isn't on that page.
>
> On 7 March 2017 at 22:59, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>
>> +1
>>
>> Note that generally a -1 is a veto only on code commits. On everything
>> else it just means you are against the proposal. However, we generally
>> strive for consensus so great weight is given to binding votes that are
>> opposed.
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>> On Mar 7, 2017, at 9:23 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> This is my +1.
>>
>> If this is the incorrect voting format and we need to do a 2/3 majority
>> instead, please veto this and let me know. This situation is not spelled
>> out in the bylaws.
>>
>> On 7 March 2017 at 22:20, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to
>>> half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>
>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing
>>> lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>
>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
>>> user@logging.apache.org
>>>
>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>
>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for
>>> the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To
>>> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>
>>> [java]
>>> [net]
>>> [cxx]
>>> [php]
>>>
>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in
>>> gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>
>>> Voting:
>>>
>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>
>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no
>>> -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open
>>> for at least 72 hours.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>



-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

No wait, the lazy voting thing at Commons is just the same form we use for
code, just with an email plus a 72 hour notice. Makes sense for repository
changes since those are a pain to reverse once the format is changed to git.

On 7 March 2017 at 23:07, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The -1 thing is mentioned here <https://logging.apache.org/guidelines.html>
> regarding a -1 being a veto for anything consensus-related (generally
> anything to do with adding or removing committers/PMCs). I suppose in that
> context, a mailing list change probably falls under lazy majority, though
> whatever it is we're doing at Commons for lazy votes isn't on that page.
>
> On 7 March 2017 at 22:59, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>
>> +1
>>
>> Note that generally a -1 is a veto only on code commits. On everything
>> else it just means you are against the proposal. However, we generally
>> strive for consensus so great weight is given to binding votes that are
>> opposed.
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>> On Mar 7, 2017, at 9:23 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> This is my +1.
>>
>> If this is the incorrect voting format and we need to do a 2/3 majority
>> instead, please veto this and let me know. This situation is not spelled
>> out in the bylaws.
>>
>> On 7 March 2017 at 22:20, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to
>>> half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>
>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing
>>> lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>
>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
>>> user@logging.apache.org
>>>
>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>
>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for
>>> the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To
>>> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>
>>> [java]
>>> [net]
>>> [cxx]
>>> [php]
>>>
>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in
>>> gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>
>>> Voting:
>>>
>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>
>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no
>>> -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open
>>> for at least 72 hours.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>



-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

No wait, the lazy voting thing at Commons is just the same form we use for
code, just with an email plus a 72 hour notice. Makes sense for repository
changes since those are a pain to reverse once the format is changed to git.

On 7 March 2017 at 23:07, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The -1 thing is mentioned here <https://logging.apache.org/guidelines.html>
> regarding a -1 being a veto for anything consensus-related (generally
> anything to do with adding or removing committers/PMCs). I suppose in that
> context, a mailing list change probably falls under lazy majority, though
> whatever it is we're doing at Commons for lazy votes isn't on that page.
>
> On 7 March 2017 at 22:59, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>
>> +1
>>
>> Note that generally a -1 is a veto only on code commits. On everything
>> else it just means you are against the proposal. However, we generally
>> strive for consensus so great weight is given to binding votes that are
>> opposed.
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>> On Mar 7, 2017, at 9:23 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> This is my +1.
>>
>> If this is the incorrect voting format and we need to do a 2/3 majority
>> instead, please veto this and let me know. This situation is not spelled
>> out in the bylaws.
>>
>> On 7 March 2017 at 22:20, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to
>>> half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>
>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing
>>> lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>
>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
>>> user@logging.apache.org
>>>
>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>
>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for
>>> the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To
>>> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>
>>> [java]
>>> [net]
>>> [cxx]
>>> [php]
>>>
>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in
>>> gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>
>>> Voting:
>>>
>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>
>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no
>>> -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open
>>> for at least 72 hours.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>



-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

The -1 thing is mentioned here <https://logging.apache.org/guidelines.html>
regarding a -1 being a veto for anything consensus-related (generally
anything to do with adding or removing committers/PMCs). I suppose in that
context, a mailing list change probably falls under lazy majority, though
whatever it is we're doing at Commons for lazy votes isn't on that page.

On 7 March 2017 at 22:59, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> +1
>
> Note that generally a -1 is a veto only on code commits. On everything
> else it just means you are against the proposal. However, we generally
> strive for consensus so great weight is given to binding votes that are
> opposed.
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 7, 2017, at 9:23 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> This is my +1.
>
> If this is the incorrect voting format and we need to do a 2/3 majority
> instead, please veto this and let me know. This situation is not spelled
> out in the bylaws.
>
> On 7 March 2017 at 22:20, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half
>> of them less than five minutes ago.
>>
>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing
>> lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>
>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>> dev@logging.apache.org
>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
>> user@logging.apache.org
>>
>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>
>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for
>> the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To
>> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>
>> [java]
>> [net]
>> [cxx]
>> [php]
>>
>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in
>> gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>
>> Voting:
>>
>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>
>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no
>> -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open
>> for at least 72 hours.
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>
>
>


-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

The -1 thing is mentioned here <https://logging.apache.org/guidelines.html>
regarding a -1 being a veto for anything consensus-related (generally
anything to do with adding or removing committers/PMCs). I suppose in that
context, a mailing list change probably falls under lazy majority, though
whatever it is we're doing at Commons for lazy votes isn't on that page.

On 7 March 2017 at 22:59, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> +1
>
> Note that generally a -1 is a veto only on code commits. On everything
> else it just means you are against the proposal. However, we generally
> strive for consensus so great weight is given to binding votes that are
> opposed.
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 7, 2017, at 9:23 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> This is my +1.
>
> If this is the incorrect voting format and we need to do a 2/3 majority
> instead, please veto this and let me know. This situation is not spelled
> out in the bylaws.
>
> On 7 March 2017 at 22:20, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half
>> of them less than five minutes ago.
>>
>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing
>> lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>
>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>> dev@logging.apache.org
>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
>> user@logging.apache.org
>>
>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>
>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for
>> the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To
>> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>
>> [java]
>> [net]
>> [cxx]
>> [php]
>>
>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in
>> gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>
>> Voting:
>>
>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>
>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no
>> -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open
>> for at least 72 hours.
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>
>
>


-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

The -1 thing is mentioned here <https://logging.apache.org/guidelines.html>
regarding a -1 being a veto for anything consensus-related (generally
anything to do with adding or removing committers/PMCs). I suppose in that
context, a mailing list change probably falls under lazy majority, though
whatever it is we're doing at Commons for lazy votes isn't on that page.

On 7 March 2017 at 22:59, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> +1
>
> Note that generally a -1 is a veto only on code commits. On everything
> else it just means you are against the proposal. However, we generally
> strive for consensus so great weight is given to binding votes that are
> opposed.
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 7, 2017, at 9:23 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> This is my +1.
>
> If this is the incorrect voting format and we need to do a 2/3 majority
> instead, please veto this and let me know. This situation is not spelled
> out in the bylaws.
>
> On 7 March 2017 at 22:20, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half
>> of them less than five minutes ago.
>>
>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing
>> lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>
>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>> dev@logging.apache.org
>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
>> user@logging.apache.org
>>
>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>
>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for
>> the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To
>> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>
>> [java]
>> [net]
>> [cxx]
>> [php]
>>
>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in
>> gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>
>> Voting:
>>
>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>
>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no
>> -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open
>> for at least 72 hours.
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>
>
>


-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

The -1 thing is mentioned here <https://logging.apache.org/guidelines.html>
regarding a -1 being a veto for anything consensus-related (generally
anything to do with adding or removing committers/PMCs). I suppose in that
context, a mailing list change probably falls under lazy majority, though
whatever it is we're doing at Commons for lazy votes isn't on that page.

On 7 March 2017 at 22:59, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> +1
>
> Note that generally a -1 is a veto only on code commits. On everything
> else it just means you are against the proposal. However, we generally
> strive for consensus so great weight is given to binding votes that are
> opposed.
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 7, 2017, at 9:23 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> This is my +1.
>
> If this is the incorrect voting format and we need to do a 2/3 majority
> instead, please veto this and let me know. This situation is not spelled
> out in the bylaws.
>
> On 7 March 2017 at 22:20, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half
>> of them less than five minutes ago.
>>
>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing
>> lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>
>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>> dev@logging.apache.org
>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
>> user@logging.apache.org
>>
>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>
>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for
>> the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To
>> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>
>> [java]
>> [net]
>> [cxx]
>> [php]
>>
>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in
>> gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>
>> Voting:
>>
>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>
>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no
>> -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open
>> for at least 72 hours.
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>
>
>


-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

The -1 thing is mentioned here <https://logging.apache.org/guidelines.html>
regarding a -1 being a veto for anything consensus-related (generally
anything to do with adding or removing committers/PMCs). I suppose in that
context, a mailing list change probably falls under lazy majority, though
whatever it is we're doing at Commons for lazy votes isn't on that page.

On 7 March 2017 at 22:59, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> +1
>
> Note that generally a -1 is a veto only on code commits. On everything
> else it just means you are against the proposal. However, we generally
> strive for consensus so great weight is given to binding votes that are
> opposed.
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 7, 2017, at 9:23 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> This is my +1.
>
> If this is the incorrect voting format and we need to do a 2/3 majority
> instead, please veto this and let me know. This situation is not spelled
> out in the bylaws.
>
> On 7 March 2017 at 22:20, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half
>> of them less than five minutes ago.
>>
>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing
>> lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>
>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>> dev@logging.apache.org
>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
>> user@logging.apache.org
>>
>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>
>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for
>> the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To
>> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>
>> [java]
>> [net]
>> [cxx]
>> [php]
>>
>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in
>> gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>
>> Voting:
>>
>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>
>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no
>> -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open
>> for at least 72 hours.
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>
>
>


-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

+1

Note that generally a -1 is a veto only on code commits. On everything else it just means you are against the proposal. However, we generally strive for consensus so great weight is given to binding votes that are opposed.

Ralph

> On Mar 7, 2017, at 9:23 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> This is my +1.
> 
> If this is the incorrect voting format and we need to do a 2/3 majority instead, please veto this and let me know. This situation is not spelled out in the bylaws.
> 
> On 7 March 2017 at 22:20, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
> 
> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
> 
> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
> 
> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
> 
> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
> 
> [java]
> [net]
> [cxx]
> [php]
> 
> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
> 
> Voting:
> 
> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
> 
> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

+1

Note that generally a -1 is a veto only on code commits. On everything else it just means you are against the proposal. However, we generally strive for consensus so great weight is given to binding votes that are opposed.

Ralph

> On Mar 7, 2017, at 9:23 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> This is my +1.
> 
> If this is the incorrect voting format and we need to do a 2/3 majority instead, please veto this and let me know. This situation is not spelled out in the bylaws.
> 
> On 7 March 2017 at 22:20, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
> 
> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
> 
> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
> 
> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
> 
> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
> 
> [java]
> [net]
> [cxx]
> [php]
> 
> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
> 
> Voting:
> 
> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
> 
> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

+1

Note that generally a -1 is a veto only on code commits. On everything else it just means you are against the proposal. However, we generally strive for consensus so great weight is given to binding votes that are opposed.

Ralph

> On Mar 7, 2017, at 9:23 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> This is my +1.
> 
> If this is the incorrect voting format and we need to do a 2/3 majority instead, please veto this and let me know. This situation is not spelled out in the bylaws.
> 
> On 7 March 2017 at 22:20, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
> 
> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
> 
> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
> 
> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
> 
> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
> 
> [java]
> [net]
> [cxx]
> [php]
> 
> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
> 
> Voting:
> 
> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
> 
> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

+1

Note that generally a -1 is a veto only on code commits. On everything else it just means you are against the proposal. However, we generally strive for consensus so great weight is given to binding votes that are opposed.

Ralph

> On Mar 7, 2017, at 9:23 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> This is my +1.
> 
> If this is the incorrect voting format and we need to do a 2/3 majority instead, please veto this and let me know. This situation is not spelled out in the bylaws.
> 
> On 7 March 2017 at 22:20, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
> 
> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
> 
> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
> 
> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
> 
> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
> 
> [java]
> [net]
> [cxx]
> [php]
> 
> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
> 
> Voting:
> 
> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
> 
> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

+1

Note that generally a -1 is a veto only on code commits. On everything else it just means you are against the proposal. However, we generally strive for consensus so great weight is given to binding votes that are opposed.

Ralph

> On Mar 7, 2017, at 9:23 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> This is my +1.
> 
> If this is the incorrect voting format and we need to do a 2/3 majority instead, please veto this and let me know. This situation is not spelled out in the bylaws.
> 
> On 7 March 2017 at 22:20, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
> 
> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
> 
> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
> 
> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
> 
> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
> 
> [java]
> [net]
> [cxx]
> [php]
> 
> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
> 
> Voting:
> 
> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
> 
> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

This is my +1.

If this is the incorrect voting format and we need to do a 2/3 majority
instead, please veto this and let me know. This situation is not spelled
out in the bylaws.

On 7 March 2017 at 22:20, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half
> of them less than five minutes ago.
>
> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists.
> The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>
> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
> dev@logging.apache.org
> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
> user@logging.apache.org
>
> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>
> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the
> combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish
> between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>
> [java]
> [net]
> [cxx]
> [php]
>
> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in
> gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>
> Voting:
>
> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>
> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no
> -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open
> for at least 72 hours.
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>



-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Stefan Bodewig <bo...@apache.org>]

On 2017-03-08, Matt Sicker wrote:

> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half
> of them less than five minutes ago.

> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists.
> The proposal is to combine them as follows:

> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
> dev@logging.apache.org

+1

> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
> user@logging.apache.org

-1

I don't think the users would benefit from a shared list and would
prefer to keep them separate (this is not a veto, just a vote).

Stefan

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Ivan Habunek <iv...@habunek.com>]

On Wed, 8 Mar 2017, at 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:

> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to
> half of them less than five minutes ago.
> 

> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing
> lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
> 

> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
> dev@logging.apache.org
> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
> user@logging.apache.org
> 

> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.

> 

> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for
> the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To
> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
> 

> [java]

> [net]

> [cxx]

> [php]

> 



-0



It's unclear which problems this solve. I don't think there's a reason
developers from one project would be interested in either dev@ or user@
mail traffic from other projects.


Well, at least having subject tags, it's possible to create email
filters.


Regards,

-- 

Ivan

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Gary Gregory <ga...@gmail.com>]

On Mar 8, 2017 5:28 AM, "Matt Sicker" <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:

I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half
of them less than five minutes ago.

This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists.
The proposal is to combine them as follows:

log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
dev@logging.apache.org


+1

log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
user@logging.apache.org


-0 Stefan makes a good point IMO.

Gary


commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.

The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the
combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish
between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:

[java]
[net]
[cxx]
[php]

Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in
gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.

Voting:

+1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
+0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
-0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
-1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!

This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no
-1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open
for at least 72 hours.

-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

This is my +1.

If this is the incorrect voting format and we need to do a 2/3 majority
instead, please veto this and let me know. This situation is not spelled
out in the bylaws.

On 7 March 2017 at 22:20, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half
> of them less than five minutes ago.
>
> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists.
> The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>
> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
> dev@logging.apache.org
> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
> user@logging.apache.org
>
> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>
> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the
> combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish
> between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>
> [java]
> [net]
> [cxx]
> [php]
>
> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in
> gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>
> Voting:
>
> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>
> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no
> -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open
> for at least 72 hours.
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>



-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

RE: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Harry Martyrossian <hm...@msn.com>]

+1

From: Dominik Psenner [mailto:dpsenner@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2017 1:45 AM
To: Log4J Developers List <lo...@logging.apache.org>; Logging PMC <pr...@logging.apache.org>; Logging General <ge...@logging.apache.org>; Log4Net Developers List <lo...@logging.apache.org>; log4php-dev@logging.apache.org; log4cxx-dev@logging.apache.org
Subject: Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@


The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:

log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org<ma...@logging.apache.org>

Matt Sicker: +1
Ralph Goers: +1
Stefan Bodewig: +1
Sven Rautenverg: -1
Thorsten Schöning: -0
Ivan Habunek: -0
Dominik Psenner: +1
Remko Popma: +1
Mikael Ståldal: +0

Totals so far:
+1: 5
+0: 1
-0: 2
-1: 1

log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org<ma...@logging.apache.org>



Matt Sicker: -1

Ralph Goers: +1

Stefan Bodewig: -1

Sven Rautenverg: -1

Thorsten Schöning: -0

Ivan Habunek: -0

Dominik Psenner: +1

Remko Popma: +1

Mikael Ståldal: -1



Totals so far:

+1: 3

+0: 0

-0: 2

-1: 4
Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.

This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:

log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org<ma...@logging.apache.org>
log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org<ma...@logging.apache.org>

commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.

The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:

[java]
[net]
[cxx]
[php]

Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.

Voting:

+1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
+0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
-0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
-1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!

This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.

--
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

I followed up with infra over the weekend but haven't gotten a response yet.

On 27 March 2017 at 20:21, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> Matt,
>
> Any update on this?
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:27 AM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
> wrote:
>
> Thanks Matt!
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:15 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> No other opinions apparently. I suppose we'll go with the single list with
> bounce messages. I'll follow up with infra later today.
>
> On 18 March 2017 at 13:12, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>
>> OK. I guess I am fine with the bounce messages. Any other opinions?
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>> On Mar 18, 2017, at 8:42 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I got this response from Gavin:
>>
>> Hi [~jvz] Sorry but I think I'm going to push back on that last request.
>>
>> Merging the lists - no problem
>> Merging all the subscribers - no problem
>> Creating bounce messages directing people to use the merged target list -
>> no problem
>>
>> People will know in advance this merger is going to take place, and if
>> they forget I think it'll take only one or two bounce messages to get the
>> hint.
>>
>> If you are :-
>>
>> a) Happy with that - pick a date this can be done , let all lists users
>> know this is happening and the date then let me know.
>> b) Not Happy with that - ping this ticket again and we'll escalate
>> further.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> On 16 March 2017 at 22:23, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Oh, I didn't realise I had a response on how to handle that. Let me
>>> follow up with infra.
>>>
>>> On 16 March 2017 at 21:46, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is there any follow-up to this?
>>>>
>>>> Ralph
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 1. That seems fine to me.
>>>> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender
>>>> but still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add
>>>> [list] to the start of the subject line.
>>>> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.
>>>>
>>>> Ralph
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Some things:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Archives won't be merged.
>>>> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email
>>>> addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over
>>>> to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
>>>> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically
>>>> subscribed to the combined list.
>>>>
>>>> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform
>>>> senders to use the new list?
>>>>
>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.
>>>>> org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651
>>>>>
>>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and
>>>>>> discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the
>>>>>> user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Total agreement.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses
>>>>>>>> dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that
>>>>>>>> affect all the sub projects.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects.
>>>>>>>> Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for
>>>>>>>> his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and
>>>>>>>> C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures
>>>>>>>> and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive
>>>>>>>> conversations about this would be great.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine
>>>>>>>> .com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the
>>>>>>>>> languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the
>>>>>>>>> subprojects.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <
>>>>>>>>> dpsenner@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging
>>>>>>>>>> projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a
>>>>>>>>>> very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache
>>>>>>>>>> Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification
>>>>>>>>>> implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all
>>>>>>>>>> the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good
>>>>>>>>>> reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same
>>>>>>>>>> use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing
>>>>>>>>>> lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just
>>>>>>>>>> quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before
>>>>>>>>>> that about two weeks ago
>>>>>>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic
>>>>>>>>>> before that a month ago
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that
>>>>>>>>>> might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are
>>>>>>>>>> just release announcements.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it
>>>>>>>>>> doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should
>>>>>>>>>> merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs
>>>>>>>>>> to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't
>>>>>>>>>> know what that list is for).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com
>>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes
>>>>>>>>>>> are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s
>>>>>>>>>>> lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would
>>>>>>>>>>> need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists
>>>>>>>>>>> so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to
>>>>>>>>>>> summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just
>>>>>>>>>>> subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services
>>>>>>>>>>> mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>>>>>>>>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@,
>>>>>>>>>>> general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become
>>>>>>>>>>> aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails.
>>>>>>>>>>> To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should
>>>>>>>>>>> help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1
>>>>>>>>>>> binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote
>>>>>>>>>>> will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> [image: MagineTV]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *Mikael Ståldal*
>>>>>>>>> Senior software developer
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *Magine TV*
>>>>>>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com
>>>>>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com
>>>>>>>>> <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in
>>>>>>>>> this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>>>>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you
>>>>>>>>> may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case,
>>>>>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by
>>>>>>>>> reply email.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>
>
>
>


-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

I followed up with infra over the weekend but haven't gotten a response yet.

On 27 March 2017 at 20:21, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> Matt,
>
> Any update on this?
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:27 AM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
> wrote:
>
> Thanks Matt!
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:15 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> No other opinions apparently. I suppose we'll go with the single list with
> bounce messages. I'll follow up with infra later today.
>
> On 18 March 2017 at 13:12, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>
>> OK. I guess I am fine with the bounce messages. Any other opinions?
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>> On Mar 18, 2017, at 8:42 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I got this response from Gavin:
>>
>> Hi [~jvz] Sorry but I think I'm going to push back on that last request.
>>
>> Merging the lists - no problem
>> Merging all the subscribers - no problem
>> Creating bounce messages directing people to use the merged target list -
>> no problem
>>
>> People will know in advance this merger is going to take place, and if
>> they forget I think it'll take only one or two bounce messages to get the
>> hint.
>>
>> If you are :-
>>
>> a) Happy with that - pick a date this can be done , let all lists users
>> know this is happening and the date then let me know.
>> b) Not Happy with that - ping this ticket again and we'll escalate
>> further.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> On 16 March 2017 at 22:23, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Oh, I didn't realise I had a response on how to handle that. Let me
>>> follow up with infra.
>>>
>>> On 16 March 2017 at 21:46, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is there any follow-up to this?
>>>>
>>>> Ralph
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 1. That seems fine to me.
>>>> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender
>>>> but still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add
>>>> [list] to the start of the subject line.
>>>> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.
>>>>
>>>> Ralph
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Some things:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Archives won't be merged.
>>>> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email
>>>> addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over
>>>> to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
>>>> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically
>>>> subscribed to the combined list.
>>>>
>>>> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform
>>>> senders to use the new list?
>>>>
>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.
>>>>> org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651
>>>>>
>>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and
>>>>>> discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the
>>>>>> user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Total agreement.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses
>>>>>>>> dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that
>>>>>>>> affect all the sub projects.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects.
>>>>>>>> Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for
>>>>>>>> his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and
>>>>>>>> C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures
>>>>>>>> and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive
>>>>>>>> conversations about this would be great.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine
>>>>>>>> .com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the
>>>>>>>>> languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the
>>>>>>>>> subprojects.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <
>>>>>>>>> dpsenner@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging
>>>>>>>>>> projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a
>>>>>>>>>> very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache
>>>>>>>>>> Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification
>>>>>>>>>> implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all
>>>>>>>>>> the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good
>>>>>>>>>> reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same
>>>>>>>>>> use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing
>>>>>>>>>> lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just
>>>>>>>>>> quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before
>>>>>>>>>> that about two weeks ago
>>>>>>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic
>>>>>>>>>> before that a month ago
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that
>>>>>>>>>> might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are
>>>>>>>>>> just release announcements.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it
>>>>>>>>>> doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should
>>>>>>>>>> merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs
>>>>>>>>>> to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't
>>>>>>>>>> know what that list is for).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com
>>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes
>>>>>>>>>>> are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s
>>>>>>>>>>> lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would
>>>>>>>>>>> need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists
>>>>>>>>>>> so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to
>>>>>>>>>>> summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just
>>>>>>>>>>> subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services
>>>>>>>>>>> mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>>>>>>>>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@,
>>>>>>>>>>> general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become
>>>>>>>>>>> aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails.
>>>>>>>>>>> To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should
>>>>>>>>>>> help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1
>>>>>>>>>>> binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote
>>>>>>>>>>> will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> [image: MagineTV]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *Mikael Ståldal*
>>>>>>>>> Senior software developer
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *Magine TV*
>>>>>>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com
>>>>>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com
>>>>>>>>> <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in
>>>>>>>>> this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>>>>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you
>>>>>>>>> may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case,
>>>>>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by
>>>>>>>>> reply email.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>
>
>
>


-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

I followed up with infra over the weekend but haven't gotten a response yet.

On 27 March 2017 at 20:21, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> Matt,
>
> Any update on this?
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:27 AM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
> wrote:
>
> Thanks Matt!
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:15 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> No other opinions apparently. I suppose we'll go with the single list with
> bounce messages. I'll follow up with infra later today.
>
> On 18 March 2017 at 13:12, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>
>> OK. I guess I am fine with the bounce messages. Any other opinions?
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>> On Mar 18, 2017, at 8:42 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I got this response from Gavin:
>>
>> Hi [~jvz] Sorry but I think I'm going to push back on that last request.
>>
>> Merging the lists - no problem
>> Merging all the subscribers - no problem
>> Creating bounce messages directing people to use the merged target list -
>> no problem
>>
>> People will know in advance this merger is going to take place, and if
>> they forget I think it'll take only one or two bounce messages to get the
>> hint.
>>
>> If you are :-
>>
>> a) Happy with that - pick a date this can be done , let all lists users
>> know this is happening and the date then let me know.
>> b) Not Happy with that - ping this ticket again and we'll escalate
>> further.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> On 16 March 2017 at 22:23, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Oh, I didn't realise I had a response on how to handle that. Let me
>>> follow up with infra.
>>>
>>> On 16 March 2017 at 21:46, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is there any follow-up to this?
>>>>
>>>> Ralph
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 1. That seems fine to me.
>>>> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender
>>>> but still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add
>>>> [list] to the start of the subject line.
>>>> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.
>>>>
>>>> Ralph
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Some things:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Archives won't be merged.
>>>> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email
>>>> addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over
>>>> to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
>>>> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically
>>>> subscribed to the combined list.
>>>>
>>>> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform
>>>> senders to use the new list?
>>>>
>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.
>>>>> org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651
>>>>>
>>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and
>>>>>> discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the
>>>>>> user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Total agreement.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses
>>>>>>>> dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that
>>>>>>>> affect all the sub projects.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects.
>>>>>>>> Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for
>>>>>>>> his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and
>>>>>>>> C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures
>>>>>>>> and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive
>>>>>>>> conversations about this would be great.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine
>>>>>>>> .com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the
>>>>>>>>> languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the
>>>>>>>>> subprojects.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <
>>>>>>>>> dpsenner@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging
>>>>>>>>>> projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a
>>>>>>>>>> very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache
>>>>>>>>>> Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification
>>>>>>>>>> implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all
>>>>>>>>>> the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good
>>>>>>>>>> reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same
>>>>>>>>>> use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing
>>>>>>>>>> lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just
>>>>>>>>>> quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before
>>>>>>>>>> that about two weeks ago
>>>>>>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic
>>>>>>>>>> before that a month ago
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that
>>>>>>>>>> might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are
>>>>>>>>>> just release announcements.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it
>>>>>>>>>> doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should
>>>>>>>>>> merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs
>>>>>>>>>> to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't
>>>>>>>>>> know what that list is for).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com
>>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes
>>>>>>>>>>> are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s
>>>>>>>>>>> lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would
>>>>>>>>>>> need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists
>>>>>>>>>>> so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to
>>>>>>>>>>> summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just
>>>>>>>>>>> subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services
>>>>>>>>>>> mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>>>>>>>>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@,
>>>>>>>>>>> general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become
>>>>>>>>>>> aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails.
>>>>>>>>>>> To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should
>>>>>>>>>>> help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1
>>>>>>>>>>> binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote
>>>>>>>>>>> will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> [image: MagineTV]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *Mikael Ståldal*
>>>>>>>>> Senior software developer
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *Magine TV*
>>>>>>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com
>>>>>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com
>>>>>>>>> <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in
>>>>>>>>> this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>>>>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you
>>>>>>>>> may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case,
>>>>>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by
>>>>>>>>> reply email.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>
>
>
>


-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

We should start a new vote for issues@. We've already voted to merge dev@
and keep the user lists as is.

On 28 March 2017 at 14:18, Paul Benedict <pb...@apache.org> wrote:

> Yes, I think combining the "user@" and "dev@" variants into two are
> appropriate. +1 (non-binding) for me.
>
> Furthermore --- and this has always been a scratch of mine to itch (and I
> raise this about once a year!) -- I would like a dedicated "issues@"
> mailing list like other Apache projects. The traditional answer back to me
> is "I setup filters for this so you can too" but I would just prefer the
> separation. The separation also makes it easier to browse the "dev@"
> archives. So for 2017, what do you guys say? Can we finally get that going
> this time around?
>
> Cheers,
> Paul
>
> On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 8:21 PM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Matt,
>>
>> Any update on this?
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>> On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:27 AM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Matt!
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>> On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:15 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> No other opinions apparently. I suppose we'll go with the single list
>> with bounce messages. I'll follow up with infra later today.
>>
>> On 18 March 2017 at 13:12, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> OK. I guess I am fine with the bounce messages. Any other opinions?
>>>
>>> Ralph
>>>
>>> On Mar 18, 2017, at 8:42 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I got this response from Gavin:
>>>
>>> Hi [~jvz] Sorry but I think I'm going to push back on that last request.
>>>
>>> Merging the lists - no problem
>>> Merging all the subscribers - no problem
>>> Creating bounce messages directing people to use the merged target list
>>> - no problem
>>>
>>> People will know in advance this merger is going to take place, and if
>>> they forget I think it'll take only one or two bounce messages to get the
>>> hint.
>>>
>>> If you are :-
>>>
>>> a) Happy with that - pick a date this can be done , let all lists users
>>> know this is happening and the date then let me know.
>>> b) Not Happy with that - ping this ticket again and we'll escalate
>>> further.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> On 16 March 2017 at 22:23, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Oh, I didn't realise I had a response on how to handle that. Let me
>>>> follow up with infra.
>>>>
>>>> On 16 March 2017 at 21:46, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Is there any follow-up to this?
>>>>>
>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. That seems fine to me.
>>>>> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender
>>>>> but still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add
>>>>> [list] to the start of the subject line.
>>>>> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Some things:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Archives won't be merged.
>>>>> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email
>>>>> addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over
>>>>> to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
>>>>> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically
>>>>> subscribed to the combined list.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform
>>>>> senders to use the new list?
>>>>>
>>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.
>>>>>> org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and
>>>>>>> discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the
>>>>>>> user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Total agreement.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses
>>>>>>>>> dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that
>>>>>>>>> affect all the sub projects.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the
>>>>>>>>> subprojects. Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make
>>>>>>>>> it useful for his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various
>>>>>>>>> projects.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and
>>>>>>>>> C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures
>>>>>>>>> and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive
>>>>>>>>> conversations about this would be great.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine
>>>>>>>>> .com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the
>>>>>>>>>> languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the
>>>>>>>>>> subprojects.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <
>>>>>>>>>> dpsenner@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging
>>>>>>>>>>> projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a
>>>>>>>>>>> very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache
>>>>>>>>>>> Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification
>>>>>>>>>>> implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all
>>>>>>>>>>> the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good
>>>>>>>>>>> reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same
>>>>>>>>>>> use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing
>>>>>>>>>>> lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just
>>>>>>>>>>> quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before
>>>>>>>>>>> that about two weeks ago
>>>>>>>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic
>>>>>>>>>>> before that a month ago
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that
>>>>>>>>>>> might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are
>>>>>>>>>>> just release announcements.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it
>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should
>>>>>>>>>>> merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs
>>>>>>>>>>> to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I
>>>>>>>>>>> don't know what that list is for).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.
>>>>>>>>>>> com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes
>>>>>>>>>>>> are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s
>>>>>>>>>>>> lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would
>>>>>>>>>>>> need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing
>>>>>>>>>>>> lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to
>>>>>>>>>>>> summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just
>>>>>>>>>>>> subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services
>>>>>>>>>>>> mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>>>>>>>>>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@,
>>>>>>>>>>>> general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become
>>>>>>>>>>>> aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails.
>>>>>>>>>>>> To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it
>>>>>>>>>>>> should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1
>>>>>>>>>>>> binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote
>>>>>>>>>>>> will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> [image: MagineTV]
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *Mikael Ståldal*
>>>>>>>>>> Senior software developer
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *Magine TV*
>>>>>>>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com
>>>>>>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com
>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in
>>>>>>>>>> this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>>>>>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person),
>>>>>>>>>> you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case,
>>>>>>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by
>>>>>>>>>> reply email.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Paul
>



-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

We should start a new vote for issues@. We've already voted to merge dev@
and keep the user lists as is.

On 28 March 2017 at 14:18, Paul Benedict <pb...@apache.org> wrote:

> Yes, I think combining the "user@" and "dev@" variants into two are
> appropriate. +1 (non-binding) for me.
>
> Furthermore --- and this has always been a scratch of mine to itch (and I
> raise this about once a year!) -- I would like a dedicated "issues@"
> mailing list like other Apache projects. The traditional answer back to me
> is "I setup filters for this so you can too" but I would just prefer the
> separation. The separation also makes it easier to browse the "dev@"
> archives. So for 2017, what do you guys say? Can we finally get that going
> this time around?
>
> Cheers,
> Paul
>
> On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 8:21 PM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Matt,
>>
>> Any update on this?
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>> On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:27 AM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Matt!
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>> On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:15 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> No other opinions apparently. I suppose we'll go with the single list
>> with bounce messages. I'll follow up with infra later today.
>>
>> On 18 March 2017 at 13:12, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> OK. I guess I am fine with the bounce messages. Any other opinions?
>>>
>>> Ralph
>>>
>>> On Mar 18, 2017, at 8:42 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I got this response from Gavin:
>>>
>>> Hi [~jvz] Sorry but I think I'm going to push back on that last request.
>>>
>>> Merging the lists - no problem
>>> Merging all the subscribers - no problem
>>> Creating bounce messages directing people to use the merged target list
>>> - no problem
>>>
>>> People will know in advance this merger is going to take place, and if
>>> they forget I think it'll take only one or two bounce messages to get the
>>> hint.
>>>
>>> If you are :-
>>>
>>> a) Happy with that - pick a date this can be done , let all lists users
>>> know this is happening and the date then let me know.
>>> b) Not Happy with that - ping this ticket again and we'll escalate
>>> further.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> On 16 March 2017 at 22:23, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Oh, I didn't realise I had a response on how to handle that. Let me
>>>> follow up with infra.
>>>>
>>>> On 16 March 2017 at 21:46, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Is there any follow-up to this?
>>>>>
>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. That seems fine to me.
>>>>> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender
>>>>> but still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add
>>>>> [list] to the start of the subject line.
>>>>> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Some things:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Archives won't be merged.
>>>>> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email
>>>>> addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over
>>>>> to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
>>>>> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically
>>>>> subscribed to the combined list.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform
>>>>> senders to use the new list?
>>>>>
>>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.
>>>>>> org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and
>>>>>>> discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the
>>>>>>> user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Total agreement.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses
>>>>>>>>> dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that
>>>>>>>>> affect all the sub projects.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the
>>>>>>>>> subprojects. Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make
>>>>>>>>> it useful for his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various
>>>>>>>>> projects.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and
>>>>>>>>> C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures
>>>>>>>>> and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive
>>>>>>>>> conversations about this would be great.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine
>>>>>>>>> .com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the
>>>>>>>>>> languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the
>>>>>>>>>> subprojects.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <
>>>>>>>>>> dpsenner@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging
>>>>>>>>>>> projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a
>>>>>>>>>>> very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache
>>>>>>>>>>> Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification
>>>>>>>>>>> implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all
>>>>>>>>>>> the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good
>>>>>>>>>>> reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same
>>>>>>>>>>> use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing
>>>>>>>>>>> lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just
>>>>>>>>>>> quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before
>>>>>>>>>>> that about two weeks ago
>>>>>>>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic
>>>>>>>>>>> before that a month ago
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that
>>>>>>>>>>> might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are
>>>>>>>>>>> just release announcements.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it
>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should
>>>>>>>>>>> merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs
>>>>>>>>>>> to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I
>>>>>>>>>>> don't know what that list is for).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.
>>>>>>>>>>> com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes
>>>>>>>>>>>> are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s
>>>>>>>>>>>> lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would
>>>>>>>>>>>> need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing
>>>>>>>>>>>> lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to
>>>>>>>>>>>> summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just
>>>>>>>>>>>> subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services
>>>>>>>>>>>> mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>>>>>>>>>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@,
>>>>>>>>>>>> general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become
>>>>>>>>>>>> aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails.
>>>>>>>>>>>> To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it
>>>>>>>>>>>> should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1
>>>>>>>>>>>> binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote
>>>>>>>>>>>> will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> [image: MagineTV]
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *Mikael Ståldal*
>>>>>>>>>> Senior software developer
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *Magine TV*
>>>>>>>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com
>>>>>>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com
>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in
>>>>>>>>>> this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>>>>>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person),
>>>>>>>>>> you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case,
>>>>>>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by
>>>>>>>>>> reply email.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Paul
>



-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

We should start a new vote for issues@. We've already voted to merge dev@
and keep the user lists as is.

On 28 March 2017 at 14:18, Paul Benedict <pb...@apache.org> wrote:

> Yes, I think combining the "user@" and "dev@" variants into two are
> appropriate. +1 (non-binding) for me.
>
> Furthermore --- and this has always been a scratch of mine to itch (and I
> raise this about once a year!) -- I would like a dedicated "issues@"
> mailing list like other Apache projects. The traditional answer back to me
> is "I setup filters for this so you can too" but I would just prefer the
> separation. The separation also makes it easier to browse the "dev@"
> archives. So for 2017, what do you guys say? Can we finally get that going
> this time around?
>
> Cheers,
> Paul
>
> On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 8:21 PM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Matt,
>>
>> Any update on this?
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>> On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:27 AM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Matt!
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>> On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:15 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> No other opinions apparently. I suppose we'll go with the single list
>> with bounce messages. I'll follow up with infra later today.
>>
>> On 18 March 2017 at 13:12, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> OK. I guess I am fine with the bounce messages. Any other opinions?
>>>
>>> Ralph
>>>
>>> On Mar 18, 2017, at 8:42 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I got this response from Gavin:
>>>
>>> Hi [~jvz] Sorry but I think I'm going to push back on that last request.
>>>
>>> Merging the lists - no problem
>>> Merging all the subscribers - no problem
>>> Creating bounce messages directing people to use the merged target list
>>> - no problem
>>>
>>> People will know in advance this merger is going to take place, and if
>>> they forget I think it'll take only one or two bounce messages to get the
>>> hint.
>>>
>>> If you are :-
>>>
>>> a) Happy with that - pick a date this can be done , let all lists users
>>> know this is happening and the date then let me know.
>>> b) Not Happy with that - ping this ticket again and we'll escalate
>>> further.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> On 16 March 2017 at 22:23, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Oh, I didn't realise I had a response on how to handle that. Let me
>>>> follow up with infra.
>>>>
>>>> On 16 March 2017 at 21:46, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Is there any follow-up to this?
>>>>>
>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. That seems fine to me.
>>>>> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender
>>>>> but still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add
>>>>> [list] to the start of the subject line.
>>>>> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Some things:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Archives won't be merged.
>>>>> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email
>>>>> addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over
>>>>> to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
>>>>> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically
>>>>> subscribed to the combined list.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform
>>>>> senders to use the new list?
>>>>>
>>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.
>>>>>> org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and
>>>>>>> discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the
>>>>>>> user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Total agreement.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses
>>>>>>>>> dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that
>>>>>>>>> affect all the sub projects.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the
>>>>>>>>> subprojects. Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make
>>>>>>>>> it useful for his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various
>>>>>>>>> projects.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and
>>>>>>>>> C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures
>>>>>>>>> and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive
>>>>>>>>> conversations about this would be great.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine
>>>>>>>>> .com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the
>>>>>>>>>> languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the
>>>>>>>>>> subprojects.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <
>>>>>>>>>> dpsenner@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging
>>>>>>>>>>> projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a
>>>>>>>>>>> very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache
>>>>>>>>>>> Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification
>>>>>>>>>>> implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all
>>>>>>>>>>> the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good
>>>>>>>>>>> reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same
>>>>>>>>>>> use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing
>>>>>>>>>>> lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just
>>>>>>>>>>> quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before
>>>>>>>>>>> that about two weeks ago
>>>>>>>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic
>>>>>>>>>>> before that a month ago
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that
>>>>>>>>>>> might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are
>>>>>>>>>>> just release announcements.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it
>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should
>>>>>>>>>>> merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs
>>>>>>>>>>> to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I
>>>>>>>>>>> don't know what that list is for).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.
>>>>>>>>>>> com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes
>>>>>>>>>>>> are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s
>>>>>>>>>>>> lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would
>>>>>>>>>>>> need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing
>>>>>>>>>>>> lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to
>>>>>>>>>>>> summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just
>>>>>>>>>>>> subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services
>>>>>>>>>>>> mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>>>>>>>>>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@,
>>>>>>>>>>>> general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become
>>>>>>>>>>>> aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails.
>>>>>>>>>>>> To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it
>>>>>>>>>>>> should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1
>>>>>>>>>>>> binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote
>>>>>>>>>>>> will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> [image: MagineTV]
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *Mikael Ståldal*
>>>>>>>>>> Senior software developer
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *Magine TV*
>>>>>>>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com
>>>>>>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com
>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in
>>>>>>>>>> this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>>>>>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person),
>>>>>>>>>> you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case,
>>>>>>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by
>>>>>>>>>> reply email.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Paul
>



-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

We should start a new vote for issues@. We've already voted to merge dev@
and keep the user lists as is.

On 28 March 2017 at 14:18, Paul Benedict <pb...@apache.org> wrote:

> Yes, I think combining the "user@" and "dev@" variants into two are
> appropriate. +1 (non-binding) for me.
>
> Furthermore --- and this has always been a scratch of mine to itch (and I
> raise this about once a year!) -- I would like a dedicated "issues@"
> mailing list like other Apache projects. The traditional answer back to me
> is "I setup filters for this so you can too" but I would just prefer the
> separation. The separation also makes it easier to browse the "dev@"
> archives. So for 2017, what do you guys say? Can we finally get that going
> this time around?
>
> Cheers,
> Paul
>
> On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 8:21 PM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Matt,
>>
>> Any update on this?
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>> On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:27 AM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Matt!
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>> On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:15 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> No other opinions apparently. I suppose we'll go with the single list
>> with bounce messages. I'll follow up with infra later today.
>>
>> On 18 March 2017 at 13:12, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> OK. I guess I am fine with the bounce messages. Any other opinions?
>>>
>>> Ralph
>>>
>>> On Mar 18, 2017, at 8:42 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I got this response from Gavin:
>>>
>>> Hi [~jvz] Sorry but I think I'm going to push back on that last request.
>>>
>>> Merging the lists - no problem
>>> Merging all the subscribers - no problem
>>> Creating bounce messages directing people to use the merged target list
>>> - no problem
>>>
>>> People will know in advance this merger is going to take place, and if
>>> they forget I think it'll take only one or two bounce messages to get the
>>> hint.
>>>
>>> If you are :-
>>>
>>> a) Happy with that - pick a date this can be done , let all lists users
>>> know this is happening and the date then let me know.
>>> b) Not Happy with that - ping this ticket again and we'll escalate
>>> further.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> On 16 March 2017 at 22:23, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Oh, I didn't realise I had a response on how to handle that. Let me
>>>> follow up with infra.
>>>>
>>>> On 16 March 2017 at 21:46, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Is there any follow-up to this?
>>>>>
>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. That seems fine to me.
>>>>> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender
>>>>> but still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add
>>>>> [list] to the start of the subject line.
>>>>> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Some things:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Archives won't be merged.
>>>>> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email
>>>>> addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over
>>>>> to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
>>>>> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically
>>>>> subscribed to the combined list.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform
>>>>> senders to use the new list?
>>>>>
>>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.
>>>>>> org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and
>>>>>>> discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the
>>>>>>> user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Total agreement.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses
>>>>>>>>> dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that
>>>>>>>>> affect all the sub projects.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the
>>>>>>>>> subprojects. Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make
>>>>>>>>> it useful for his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various
>>>>>>>>> projects.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and
>>>>>>>>> C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures
>>>>>>>>> and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive
>>>>>>>>> conversations about this would be great.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine
>>>>>>>>> .com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the
>>>>>>>>>> languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the
>>>>>>>>>> subprojects.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <
>>>>>>>>>> dpsenner@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging
>>>>>>>>>>> projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a
>>>>>>>>>>> very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache
>>>>>>>>>>> Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification
>>>>>>>>>>> implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all
>>>>>>>>>>> the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good
>>>>>>>>>>> reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same
>>>>>>>>>>> use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing
>>>>>>>>>>> lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just
>>>>>>>>>>> quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before
>>>>>>>>>>> that about two weeks ago
>>>>>>>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic
>>>>>>>>>>> before that a month ago
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that
>>>>>>>>>>> might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are
>>>>>>>>>>> just release announcements.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it
>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should
>>>>>>>>>>> merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs
>>>>>>>>>>> to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I
>>>>>>>>>>> don't know what that list is for).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.
>>>>>>>>>>> com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes
>>>>>>>>>>>> are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s
>>>>>>>>>>>> lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would
>>>>>>>>>>>> need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing
>>>>>>>>>>>> lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to
>>>>>>>>>>>> summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just
>>>>>>>>>>>> subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services
>>>>>>>>>>>> mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>>>>>>>>>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@,
>>>>>>>>>>>> general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become
>>>>>>>>>>>> aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails.
>>>>>>>>>>>> To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it
>>>>>>>>>>>> should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1
>>>>>>>>>>>> binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote
>>>>>>>>>>>> will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> [image: MagineTV]
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *Mikael Ståldal*
>>>>>>>>>> Senior software developer
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *Magine TV*
>>>>>>>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com
>>>>>>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com
>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in
>>>>>>>>>> this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>>>>>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person),
>>>>>>>>>> you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case,
>>>>>>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by
>>>>>>>>>> reply email.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Paul
>



-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Paul Benedict <pb...@apache.org>]

Yes, I think combining the "user@" and "dev@" variants into two are
appropriate. +1 (non-binding) for me.

Furthermore --- and this has always been a scratch of mine to itch (and I
raise this about once a year!) -- I would like a dedicated "issues@"
mailing list like other Apache projects. The traditional answer back to me
is "I setup filters for this so you can too" but I would just prefer the
separation. The separation also makes it easier to browse the "dev@"
archives. So for 2017, what do you guys say? Can we finally get that going
this time around?

Cheers,
Paul

On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 8:21 PM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
wrote:

> Matt,
>
> Any update on this?
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:27 AM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
> wrote:
>
> Thanks Matt!
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:15 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> No other opinions apparently. I suppose we'll go with the single list with
> bounce messages. I'll follow up with infra later today.
>
> On 18 March 2017 at 13:12, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>
>> OK. I guess I am fine with the bounce messages. Any other opinions?
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>> On Mar 18, 2017, at 8:42 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I got this response from Gavin:
>>
>> Hi [~jvz] Sorry but I think I'm going to push back on that last request.
>>
>> Merging the lists - no problem
>> Merging all the subscribers - no problem
>> Creating bounce messages directing people to use the merged target list -
>> no problem
>>
>> People will know in advance this merger is going to take place, and if
>> they forget I think it'll take only one or two bounce messages to get the
>> hint.
>>
>> If you are :-
>>
>> a) Happy with that - pick a date this can be done , let all lists users
>> know this is happening and the date then let me know.
>> b) Not Happy with that - ping this ticket again and we'll escalate
>> further.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> On 16 March 2017 at 22:23, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Oh, I didn't realise I had a response on how to handle that. Let me
>>> follow up with infra.
>>>
>>> On 16 March 2017 at 21:46, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is there any follow-up to this?
>>>>
>>>> Ralph
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 1. That seems fine to me.
>>>> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender
>>>> but still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add
>>>> [list] to the start of the subject line.
>>>> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.
>>>>
>>>> Ralph
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Some things:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Archives won't be merged.
>>>> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email
>>>> addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over
>>>> to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
>>>> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically
>>>> subscribed to the combined list.
>>>>
>>>> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform
>>>> senders to use the new list?
>>>>
>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.
>>>>> org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651
>>>>>
>>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and
>>>>>> discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the
>>>>>> user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Total agreement.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses
>>>>>>>> dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that
>>>>>>>> affect all the sub projects.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects.
>>>>>>>> Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for
>>>>>>>> his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and
>>>>>>>> C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures
>>>>>>>> and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive
>>>>>>>> conversations about this would be great.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine
>>>>>>>> .com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the
>>>>>>>>> languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the
>>>>>>>>> subprojects.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <
>>>>>>>>> dpsenner@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging
>>>>>>>>>> projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a
>>>>>>>>>> very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache
>>>>>>>>>> Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification
>>>>>>>>>> implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all
>>>>>>>>>> the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good
>>>>>>>>>> reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same
>>>>>>>>>> use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing
>>>>>>>>>> lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just
>>>>>>>>>> quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before
>>>>>>>>>> that about two weeks ago
>>>>>>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic
>>>>>>>>>> before that a month ago
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that
>>>>>>>>>> might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are
>>>>>>>>>> just release announcements.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it
>>>>>>>>>> doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should
>>>>>>>>>> merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs
>>>>>>>>>> to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't
>>>>>>>>>> know what that list is for).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com
>>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes
>>>>>>>>>>> are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s
>>>>>>>>>>> lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would
>>>>>>>>>>> need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists
>>>>>>>>>>> so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to
>>>>>>>>>>> summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just
>>>>>>>>>>> subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services
>>>>>>>>>>> mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>>>>>>>>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@,
>>>>>>>>>>> general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become
>>>>>>>>>>> aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails.
>>>>>>>>>>> To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should
>>>>>>>>>>> help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1
>>>>>>>>>>> binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote
>>>>>>>>>>> will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> [image: MagineTV]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *Mikael Ståldal*
>>>>>>>>> Senior software developer
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *Magine TV*
>>>>>>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com
>>>>>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com
>>>>>>>>> <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in
>>>>>>>>> this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>>>>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you
>>>>>>>>> may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case,
>>>>>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by
>>>>>>>>> reply email.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>
>
>
>


-- 
Cheers,
Paul

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Paul Benedict <pb...@apache.org>]

Yes, I think combining the "user@" and "dev@" variants into two are
appropriate. +1 (non-binding) for me.

Furthermore --- and this has always been a scratch of mine to itch (and I
raise this about once a year!) -- I would like a dedicated "issues@"
mailing list like other Apache projects. The traditional answer back to me
is "I setup filters for this so you can too" but I would just prefer the
separation. The separation also makes it easier to browse the "dev@"
archives. So for 2017, what do you guys say? Can we finally get that going
this time around?

Cheers,
Paul

On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 8:21 PM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
wrote:

> Matt,
>
> Any update on this?
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:27 AM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
> wrote:
>
> Thanks Matt!
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:15 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> No other opinions apparently. I suppose we'll go with the single list with
> bounce messages. I'll follow up with infra later today.
>
> On 18 March 2017 at 13:12, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>
>> OK. I guess I am fine with the bounce messages. Any other opinions?
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>> On Mar 18, 2017, at 8:42 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I got this response from Gavin:
>>
>> Hi [~jvz] Sorry but I think I'm going to push back on that last request.
>>
>> Merging the lists - no problem
>> Merging all the subscribers - no problem
>> Creating bounce messages directing people to use the merged target list -
>> no problem
>>
>> People will know in advance this merger is going to take place, and if
>> they forget I think it'll take only one or two bounce messages to get the
>> hint.
>>
>> If you are :-
>>
>> a) Happy with that - pick a date this can be done , let all lists users
>> know this is happening and the date then let me know.
>> b) Not Happy with that - ping this ticket again and we'll escalate
>> further.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> On 16 March 2017 at 22:23, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Oh, I didn't realise I had a response on how to handle that. Let me
>>> follow up with infra.
>>>
>>> On 16 March 2017 at 21:46, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is there any follow-up to this?
>>>>
>>>> Ralph
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 1. That seems fine to me.
>>>> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender
>>>> but still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add
>>>> [list] to the start of the subject line.
>>>> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.
>>>>
>>>> Ralph
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Some things:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Archives won't be merged.
>>>> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email
>>>> addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over
>>>> to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
>>>> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically
>>>> subscribed to the combined list.
>>>>
>>>> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform
>>>> senders to use the new list?
>>>>
>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.
>>>>> org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651
>>>>>
>>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and
>>>>>> discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the
>>>>>> user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Total agreement.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses
>>>>>>>> dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that
>>>>>>>> affect all the sub projects.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects.
>>>>>>>> Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for
>>>>>>>> his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and
>>>>>>>> C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures
>>>>>>>> and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive
>>>>>>>> conversations about this would be great.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine
>>>>>>>> .com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the
>>>>>>>>> languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the
>>>>>>>>> subprojects.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <
>>>>>>>>> dpsenner@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging
>>>>>>>>>> projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a
>>>>>>>>>> very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache
>>>>>>>>>> Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification
>>>>>>>>>> implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all
>>>>>>>>>> the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good
>>>>>>>>>> reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same
>>>>>>>>>> use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing
>>>>>>>>>> lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just
>>>>>>>>>> quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before
>>>>>>>>>> that about two weeks ago
>>>>>>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic
>>>>>>>>>> before that a month ago
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that
>>>>>>>>>> might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are
>>>>>>>>>> just release announcements.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it
>>>>>>>>>> doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should
>>>>>>>>>> merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs
>>>>>>>>>> to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't
>>>>>>>>>> know what that list is for).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com
>>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes
>>>>>>>>>>> are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s
>>>>>>>>>>> lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would
>>>>>>>>>>> need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists
>>>>>>>>>>> so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to
>>>>>>>>>>> summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just
>>>>>>>>>>> subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services
>>>>>>>>>>> mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>>>>>>>>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@,
>>>>>>>>>>> general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become
>>>>>>>>>>> aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails.
>>>>>>>>>>> To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should
>>>>>>>>>>> help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1
>>>>>>>>>>> binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote
>>>>>>>>>>> will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> [image: MagineTV]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *Mikael Ståldal*
>>>>>>>>> Senior software developer
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *Magine TV*
>>>>>>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com
>>>>>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com
>>>>>>>>> <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in
>>>>>>>>> this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>>>>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you
>>>>>>>>> may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case,
>>>>>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by
>>>>>>>>> reply email.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>
>
>
>


-- 
Cheers,
Paul

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Paul Benedict <pb...@apache.org>]

Yes, I think combining the "user@" and "dev@" variants into two are
appropriate. +1 (non-binding) for me.

Furthermore --- and this has always been a scratch of mine to itch (and I
raise this about once a year!) -- I would like a dedicated "issues@"
mailing list like other Apache projects. The traditional answer back to me
is "I setup filters for this so you can too" but I would just prefer the
separation. The separation also makes it easier to browse the "dev@"
archives. So for 2017, what do you guys say? Can we finally get that going
this time around?

Cheers,
Paul

On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 8:21 PM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
wrote:

> Matt,
>
> Any update on this?
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:27 AM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
> wrote:
>
> Thanks Matt!
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:15 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> No other opinions apparently. I suppose we'll go with the single list with
> bounce messages. I'll follow up with infra later today.
>
> On 18 March 2017 at 13:12, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>
>> OK. I guess I am fine with the bounce messages. Any other opinions?
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>> On Mar 18, 2017, at 8:42 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I got this response from Gavin:
>>
>> Hi [~jvz] Sorry but I think I'm going to push back on that last request.
>>
>> Merging the lists - no problem
>> Merging all the subscribers - no problem
>> Creating bounce messages directing people to use the merged target list -
>> no problem
>>
>> People will know in advance this merger is going to take place, and if
>> they forget I think it'll take only one or two bounce messages to get the
>> hint.
>>
>> If you are :-
>>
>> a) Happy with that - pick a date this can be done , let all lists users
>> know this is happening and the date then let me know.
>> b) Not Happy with that - ping this ticket again and we'll escalate
>> further.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> On 16 March 2017 at 22:23, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Oh, I didn't realise I had a response on how to handle that. Let me
>>> follow up with infra.
>>>
>>> On 16 March 2017 at 21:46, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is there any follow-up to this?
>>>>
>>>> Ralph
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 1. That seems fine to me.
>>>> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender
>>>> but still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add
>>>> [list] to the start of the subject line.
>>>> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.
>>>>
>>>> Ralph
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Some things:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Archives won't be merged.
>>>> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email
>>>> addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over
>>>> to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
>>>> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically
>>>> subscribed to the combined list.
>>>>
>>>> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform
>>>> senders to use the new list?
>>>>
>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.
>>>>> org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651
>>>>>
>>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and
>>>>>> discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the
>>>>>> user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Total agreement.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses
>>>>>>>> dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that
>>>>>>>> affect all the sub projects.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects.
>>>>>>>> Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for
>>>>>>>> his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and
>>>>>>>> C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures
>>>>>>>> and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive
>>>>>>>> conversations about this would be great.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine
>>>>>>>> .com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the
>>>>>>>>> languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the
>>>>>>>>> subprojects.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <
>>>>>>>>> dpsenner@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging
>>>>>>>>>> projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a
>>>>>>>>>> very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache
>>>>>>>>>> Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification
>>>>>>>>>> implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all
>>>>>>>>>> the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good
>>>>>>>>>> reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same
>>>>>>>>>> use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing
>>>>>>>>>> lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just
>>>>>>>>>> quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before
>>>>>>>>>> that about two weeks ago
>>>>>>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic
>>>>>>>>>> before that a month ago
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that
>>>>>>>>>> might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are
>>>>>>>>>> just release announcements.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it
>>>>>>>>>> doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should
>>>>>>>>>> merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs
>>>>>>>>>> to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't
>>>>>>>>>> know what that list is for).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com
>>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes
>>>>>>>>>>> are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s
>>>>>>>>>>> lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would
>>>>>>>>>>> need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists
>>>>>>>>>>> so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to
>>>>>>>>>>> summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just
>>>>>>>>>>> subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services
>>>>>>>>>>> mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>>>>>>>>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@,
>>>>>>>>>>> general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become
>>>>>>>>>>> aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails.
>>>>>>>>>>> To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should
>>>>>>>>>>> help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1
>>>>>>>>>>> binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote
>>>>>>>>>>> will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> [image: MagineTV]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *Mikael Ståldal*
>>>>>>>>> Senior software developer
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *Magine TV*
>>>>>>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com
>>>>>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com
>>>>>>>>> <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in
>>>>>>>>> this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>>>>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you
>>>>>>>>> may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case,
>>>>>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by
>>>>>>>>> reply email.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>
>
>
>


-- 
Cheers,
Paul

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

I followed up with infra over the weekend but haven't gotten a response yet.

On 27 March 2017 at 20:21, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> Matt,
>
> Any update on this?
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:27 AM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
> wrote:
>
> Thanks Matt!
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:15 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> No other opinions apparently. I suppose we'll go with the single list with
> bounce messages. I'll follow up with infra later today.
>
> On 18 March 2017 at 13:12, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>
>> OK. I guess I am fine with the bounce messages. Any other opinions?
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>> On Mar 18, 2017, at 8:42 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I got this response from Gavin:
>>
>> Hi [~jvz] Sorry but I think I'm going to push back on that last request.
>>
>> Merging the lists - no problem
>> Merging all the subscribers - no problem
>> Creating bounce messages directing people to use the merged target list -
>> no problem
>>
>> People will know in advance this merger is going to take place, and if
>> they forget I think it'll take only one or two bounce messages to get the
>> hint.
>>
>> If you are :-
>>
>> a) Happy with that - pick a date this can be done , let all lists users
>> know this is happening and the date then let me know.
>> b) Not Happy with that - ping this ticket again and we'll escalate
>> further.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> On 16 March 2017 at 22:23, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Oh, I didn't realise I had a response on how to handle that. Let me
>>> follow up with infra.
>>>
>>> On 16 March 2017 at 21:46, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is there any follow-up to this?
>>>>
>>>> Ralph
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 1. That seems fine to me.
>>>> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender
>>>> but still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add
>>>> [list] to the start of the subject line.
>>>> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.
>>>>
>>>> Ralph
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Some things:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Archives won't be merged.
>>>> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email
>>>> addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over
>>>> to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
>>>> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically
>>>> subscribed to the combined list.
>>>>
>>>> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform
>>>> senders to use the new list?
>>>>
>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.
>>>>> org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651
>>>>>
>>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and
>>>>>> discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the
>>>>>> user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Total agreement.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses
>>>>>>>> dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that
>>>>>>>> affect all the sub projects.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects.
>>>>>>>> Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for
>>>>>>>> his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and
>>>>>>>> C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures
>>>>>>>> and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive
>>>>>>>> conversations about this would be great.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine
>>>>>>>> .com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the
>>>>>>>>> languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the
>>>>>>>>> subprojects.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <
>>>>>>>>> dpsenner@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging
>>>>>>>>>> projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a
>>>>>>>>>> very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache
>>>>>>>>>> Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification
>>>>>>>>>> implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all
>>>>>>>>>> the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good
>>>>>>>>>> reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same
>>>>>>>>>> use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing
>>>>>>>>>> lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just
>>>>>>>>>> quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before
>>>>>>>>>> that about two weeks ago
>>>>>>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic
>>>>>>>>>> before that a month ago
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that
>>>>>>>>>> might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are
>>>>>>>>>> just release announcements.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it
>>>>>>>>>> doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should
>>>>>>>>>> merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs
>>>>>>>>>> to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't
>>>>>>>>>> know what that list is for).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com
>>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes
>>>>>>>>>>> are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s
>>>>>>>>>>> lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would
>>>>>>>>>>> need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists
>>>>>>>>>>> so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to
>>>>>>>>>>> summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just
>>>>>>>>>>> subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services
>>>>>>>>>>> mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>>>>>>>>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@,
>>>>>>>>>>> general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become
>>>>>>>>>>> aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails.
>>>>>>>>>>> To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should
>>>>>>>>>>> help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1
>>>>>>>>>>> binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote
>>>>>>>>>>> will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> [image: MagineTV]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *Mikael Ståldal*
>>>>>>>>> Senior software developer
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *Magine TV*
>>>>>>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com
>>>>>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com
>>>>>>>>> <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in
>>>>>>>>> this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>>>>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you
>>>>>>>>> may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case,
>>>>>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by
>>>>>>>>> reply email.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>
>
>
>


-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Paul Benedict <pb...@apache.org>]

Yes, I think combining the "user@" and "dev@" variants into two are
appropriate. +1 (non-binding) for me.

Furthermore --- and this has always been a scratch of mine to itch (and I
raise this about once a year!) -- I would like a dedicated "issues@"
mailing list like other Apache projects. The traditional answer back to me
is "I setup filters for this so you can too" but I would just prefer the
separation. The separation also makes it easier to browse the "dev@"
archives. So for 2017, what do you guys say? Can we finally get that going
this time around?

Cheers,
Paul

On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 8:21 PM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
wrote:

> Matt,
>
> Any update on this?
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:27 AM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
> wrote:
>
> Thanks Matt!
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:15 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> No other opinions apparently. I suppose we'll go with the single list with
> bounce messages. I'll follow up with infra later today.
>
> On 18 March 2017 at 13:12, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>
>> OK. I guess I am fine with the bounce messages. Any other opinions?
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>> On Mar 18, 2017, at 8:42 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I got this response from Gavin:
>>
>> Hi [~jvz] Sorry but I think I'm going to push back on that last request.
>>
>> Merging the lists - no problem
>> Merging all the subscribers - no problem
>> Creating bounce messages directing people to use the merged target list -
>> no problem
>>
>> People will know in advance this merger is going to take place, and if
>> they forget I think it'll take only one or two bounce messages to get the
>> hint.
>>
>> If you are :-
>>
>> a) Happy with that - pick a date this can be done , let all lists users
>> know this is happening and the date then let me know.
>> b) Not Happy with that - ping this ticket again and we'll escalate
>> further.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> On 16 March 2017 at 22:23, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Oh, I didn't realise I had a response on how to handle that. Let me
>>> follow up with infra.
>>>
>>> On 16 March 2017 at 21:46, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is there any follow-up to this?
>>>>
>>>> Ralph
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 1. That seems fine to me.
>>>> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender
>>>> but still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add
>>>> [list] to the start of the subject line.
>>>> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.
>>>>
>>>> Ralph
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Some things:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Archives won't be merged.
>>>> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email
>>>> addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over
>>>> to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
>>>> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically
>>>> subscribed to the combined list.
>>>>
>>>> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform
>>>> senders to use the new list?
>>>>
>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.
>>>>> org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651
>>>>>
>>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and
>>>>>> discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the
>>>>>> user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Total agreement.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses
>>>>>>>> dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that
>>>>>>>> affect all the sub projects.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects.
>>>>>>>> Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for
>>>>>>>> his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and
>>>>>>>> C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures
>>>>>>>> and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive
>>>>>>>> conversations about this would be great.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine
>>>>>>>> .com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the
>>>>>>>>> languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the
>>>>>>>>> subprojects.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <
>>>>>>>>> dpsenner@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging
>>>>>>>>>> projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a
>>>>>>>>>> very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache
>>>>>>>>>> Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification
>>>>>>>>>> implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all
>>>>>>>>>> the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good
>>>>>>>>>> reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same
>>>>>>>>>> use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing
>>>>>>>>>> lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just
>>>>>>>>>> quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before
>>>>>>>>>> that about two weeks ago
>>>>>>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic
>>>>>>>>>> before that a month ago
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that
>>>>>>>>>> might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are
>>>>>>>>>> just release announcements.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it
>>>>>>>>>> doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should
>>>>>>>>>> merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs
>>>>>>>>>> to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't
>>>>>>>>>> know what that list is for).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com
>>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes
>>>>>>>>>>> are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s
>>>>>>>>>>> lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would
>>>>>>>>>>> need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists
>>>>>>>>>>> so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to
>>>>>>>>>>> summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just
>>>>>>>>>>> subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services
>>>>>>>>>>> mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>>>>>>>>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@,
>>>>>>>>>>> general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become
>>>>>>>>>>> aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails.
>>>>>>>>>>> To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should
>>>>>>>>>>> help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1
>>>>>>>>>>> binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote
>>>>>>>>>>> will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> [image: MagineTV]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *Mikael Ståldal*
>>>>>>>>> Senior software developer
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *Magine TV*
>>>>>>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com
>>>>>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com
>>>>>>>>> <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in
>>>>>>>>> this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>>>>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you
>>>>>>>>> may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case,
>>>>>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by
>>>>>>>>> reply email.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>
>
>
>


-- 
Cheers,
Paul

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

Matt,

Any update on this?

Ralph

> On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:27 AM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
> 
> Thanks Matt!
> 
> Ralph
> 
>> On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:15 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> No other opinions apparently. I suppose we'll go with the single list with bounce messages. I'll follow up with infra later today.
>> 
>> On 18 March 2017 at 13:12, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>> OK. I guess I am fine with the bounce messages. Any other opinions?
>> 
>> Ralph
>> 
>>> On Mar 18, 2017, at 8:42 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I got this response from Gavin:
>>> 
>>> Hi [~jvz] Sorry but I think I'm going to push back on that last request.
>>> 
>>> Merging the lists - no problem
>>> Merging all the subscribers - no problem
>>> Creating bounce messages directing people to use the merged target list - no problem
>>> 
>>> People will know in advance this merger is going to take place, and if they forget I think it'll take only one or two bounce messages to get the hint.
>>> 
>>> If you are :-
>>> 
>>> a) Happy with that - pick a date this can be done , let all lists users know this is happening and the date then let me know.
>>> b) Not Happy with that - ping this ticket again and we'll escalate further.
>>> 
>>> Thanks
>>> 
>>> On 16 March 2017 at 22:23, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> Oh, I didn't realise I had a response on how to handle that. Let me follow up with infra.
>>> 
>>> On 16 March 2017 at 21:46, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>> Is there any follow-up to this?  
>>> 
>>> Ralph
>>> 
>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 1. That seems fine to me.
>>>> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender but still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add [list] to the start of the subject line.
>>>> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.
>>>> 
>>>> Ralph
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Some things:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 1. Archives won't be merged.
>>>>> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
>>>>> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically subscribed to the combined list.
>>>>> 
>>>>> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform senders to use the new list?
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651>
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>>> Yes,
>>>>> 
>>>>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ralph
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> Total agreement.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that affect all the sub projects.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive conversations about this would be great.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that about two weeks ago
>>>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before that a month ago
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is for).
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal
>>>>>>> Senior software developer 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Magine TV
>>>>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>    
>>>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com  <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, 
>>>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email.   
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> 

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

Matt,

Any update on this?

Ralph

> On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:27 AM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
> 
> Thanks Matt!
> 
> Ralph
> 
>> On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:15 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> No other opinions apparently. I suppose we'll go with the single list with bounce messages. I'll follow up with infra later today.
>> 
>> On 18 March 2017 at 13:12, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>> OK. I guess I am fine with the bounce messages. Any other opinions?
>> 
>> Ralph
>> 
>>> On Mar 18, 2017, at 8:42 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I got this response from Gavin:
>>> 
>>> Hi [~jvz] Sorry but I think I'm going to push back on that last request.
>>> 
>>> Merging the lists - no problem
>>> Merging all the subscribers - no problem
>>> Creating bounce messages directing people to use the merged target list - no problem
>>> 
>>> People will know in advance this merger is going to take place, and if they forget I think it'll take only one or two bounce messages to get the hint.
>>> 
>>> If you are :-
>>> 
>>> a) Happy with that - pick a date this can be done , let all lists users know this is happening and the date then let me know.
>>> b) Not Happy with that - ping this ticket again and we'll escalate further.
>>> 
>>> Thanks
>>> 
>>> On 16 March 2017 at 22:23, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> Oh, I didn't realise I had a response on how to handle that. Let me follow up with infra.
>>> 
>>> On 16 March 2017 at 21:46, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>> Is there any follow-up to this?  
>>> 
>>> Ralph
>>> 
>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 1. That seems fine to me.
>>>> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender but still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add [list] to the start of the subject line.
>>>> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.
>>>> 
>>>> Ralph
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Some things:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 1. Archives won't be merged.
>>>>> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
>>>>> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically subscribed to the combined list.
>>>>> 
>>>>> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform senders to use the new list?
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651>
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>>> Yes,
>>>>> 
>>>>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ralph
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> Total agreement.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that affect all the sub projects.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive conversations about this would be great.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that about two weeks ago
>>>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before that a month ago
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is for).
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal
>>>>>>> Senior software developer 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Magine TV
>>>>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>    
>>>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com  <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, 
>>>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email.   
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> 

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

Matt,

Any update on this?

Ralph

> On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:27 AM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
> 
> Thanks Matt!
> 
> Ralph
> 
>> On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:15 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> No other opinions apparently. I suppose we'll go with the single list with bounce messages. I'll follow up with infra later today.
>> 
>> On 18 March 2017 at 13:12, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>> OK. I guess I am fine with the bounce messages. Any other opinions?
>> 
>> Ralph
>> 
>>> On Mar 18, 2017, at 8:42 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I got this response from Gavin:
>>> 
>>> Hi [~jvz] Sorry but I think I'm going to push back on that last request.
>>> 
>>> Merging the lists - no problem
>>> Merging all the subscribers - no problem
>>> Creating bounce messages directing people to use the merged target list - no problem
>>> 
>>> People will know in advance this merger is going to take place, and if they forget I think it'll take only one or two bounce messages to get the hint.
>>> 
>>> If you are :-
>>> 
>>> a) Happy with that - pick a date this can be done , let all lists users know this is happening and the date then let me know.
>>> b) Not Happy with that - ping this ticket again and we'll escalate further.
>>> 
>>> Thanks
>>> 
>>> On 16 March 2017 at 22:23, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> Oh, I didn't realise I had a response on how to handle that. Let me follow up with infra.
>>> 
>>> On 16 March 2017 at 21:46, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>> Is there any follow-up to this?  
>>> 
>>> Ralph
>>> 
>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 1. That seems fine to me.
>>>> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender but still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add [list] to the start of the subject line.
>>>> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.
>>>> 
>>>> Ralph
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Some things:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 1. Archives won't be merged.
>>>>> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
>>>>> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically subscribed to the combined list.
>>>>> 
>>>>> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform senders to use the new list?
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651>
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>>> Yes,
>>>>> 
>>>>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ralph
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> Total agreement.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that affect all the sub projects.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive conversations about this would be great.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that about two weeks ago
>>>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before that a month ago
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is for).
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal
>>>>>>> Senior software developer 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Magine TV
>>>>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>    
>>>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com  <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, 
>>>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email.   
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> 

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

Matt,

Any update on this?

Ralph

> On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:27 AM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
> 
> Thanks Matt!
> 
> Ralph
> 
>> On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:15 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> No other opinions apparently. I suppose we'll go with the single list with bounce messages. I'll follow up with infra later today.
>> 
>> On 18 March 2017 at 13:12, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>> OK. I guess I am fine with the bounce messages. Any other opinions?
>> 
>> Ralph
>> 
>>> On Mar 18, 2017, at 8:42 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I got this response from Gavin:
>>> 
>>> Hi [~jvz] Sorry but I think I'm going to push back on that last request.
>>> 
>>> Merging the lists - no problem
>>> Merging all the subscribers - no problem
>>> Creating bounce messages directing people to use the merged target list - no problem
>>> 
>>> People will know in advance this merger is going to take place, and if they forget I think it'll take only one or two bounce messages to get the hint.
>>> 
>>> If you are :-
>>> 
>>> a) Happy with that - pick a date this can be done , let all lists users know this is happening and the date then let me know.
>>> b) Not Happy with that - ping this ticket again and we'll escalate further.
>>> 
>>> Thanks
>>> 
>>> On 16 March 2017 at 22:23, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> Oh, I didn't realise I had a response on how to handle that. Let me follow up with infra.
>>> 
>>> On 16 March 2017 at 21:46, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>> Is there any follow-up to this?  
>>> 
>>> Ralph
>>> 
>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 1. That seems fine to me.
>>>> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender but still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add [list] to the start of the subject line.
>>>> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.
>>>> 
>>>> Ralph
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Some things:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 1. Archives won't be merged.
>>>>> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
>>>>> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically subscribed to the combined list.
>>>>> 
>>>>> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform senders to use the new list?
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651>
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>>> Yes,
>>>>> 
>>>>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ralph
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> Total agreement.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that affect all the sub projects.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive conversations about this would be great.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that about two weeks ago
>>>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before that a month ago
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is for).
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal
>>>>>>> Senior software developer 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Magine TV
>>>>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>    
>>>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com  <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, 
>>>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email.   
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> 

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

Thanks Matt!

Ralph

> On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:15 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> No other opinions apparently. I suppose we'll go with the single list with bounce messages. I'll follow up with infra later today.
> 
> On 18 March 2017 at 13:12, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
> OK. I guess I am fine with the bounce messages. Any other opinions?
> 
> Ralph
> 
>> On Mar 18, 2017, at 8:42 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> I got this response from Gavin:
>> 
>> Hi [~jvz] Sorry but I think I'm going to push back on that last request.
>> 
>> Merging the lists - no problem
>> Merging all the subscribers - no problem
>> Creating bounce messages directing people to use the merged target list - no problem
>> 
>> People will know in advance this merger is going to take place, and if they forget I think it'll take only one or two bounce messages to get the hint.
>> 
>> If you are :-
>> 
>> a) Happy with that - pick a date this can be done , let all lists users know this is happening and the date then let me know.
>> b) Not Happy with that - ping this ticket again and we'll escalate further.
>> 
>> Thanks
>> 
>> On 16 March 2017 at 22:23, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Oh, I didn't realise I had a response on how to handle that. Let me follow up with infra.
>> 
>> On 16 March 2017 at 21:46, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>> Is there any follow-up to this?  
>> 
>> Ralph
>> 
>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 1. That seems fine to me.
>>> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender but still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add [list] to the start of the subject line.
>>> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.
>>> 
>>> Ralph
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Some things:
>>>> 
>>>> 1. Archives won't be merged.
>>>> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
>>>> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically subscribed to the combined list.
>>>> 
>>>> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform senders to use the new list?
>>>> 
>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651>
>>>> 
>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>> Yes,
>>>> 
>>>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>>>> 
>>>> Ralph
>>>> 
>>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> Total agreement.
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that affect all the sub projects.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ralph
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive conversations about this would be great.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that about two weeks ago
>>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before that a month ago
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is for).
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal
>>>>>> Senior software developer 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Magine TV
>>>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>    
>>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com  <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, 
>>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email.   
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

Thanks Matt!

Ralph

> On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:15 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> No other opinions apparently. I suppose we'll go with the single list with bounce messages. I'll follow up with infra later today.
> 
> On 18 March 2017 at 13:12, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
> OK. I guess I am fine with the bounce messages. Any other opinions?
> 
> Ralph
> 
>> On Mar 18, 2017, at 8:42 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> I got this response from Gavin:
>> 
>> Hi [~jvz] Sorry but I think I'm going to push back on that last request.
>> 
>> Merging the lists - no problem
>> Merging all the subscribers - no problem
>> Creating bounce messages directing people to use the merged target list - no problem
>> 
>> People will know in advance this merger is going to take place, and if they forget I think it'll take only one or two bounce messages to get the hint.
>> 
>> If you are :-
>> 
>> a) Happy with that - pick a date this can be done , let all lists users know this is happening and the date then let me know.
>> b) Not Happy with that - ping this ticket again and we'll escalate further.
>> 
>> Thanks
>> 
>> On 16 March 2017 at 22:23, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Oh, I didn't realise I had a response on how to handle that. Let me follow up with infra.
>> 
>> On 16 March 2017 at 21:46, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>> Is there any follow-up to this?  
>> 
>> Ralph
>> 
>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 1. That seems fine to me.
>>> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender but still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add [list] to the start of the subject line.
>>> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.
>>> 
>>> Ralph
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Some things:
>>>> 
>>>> 1. Archives won't be merged.
>>>> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
>>>> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically subscribed to the combined list.
>>>> 
>>>> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform senders to use the new list?
>>>> 
>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651>
>>>> 
>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>> Yes,
>>>> 
>>>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>>>> 
>>>> Ralph
>>>> 
>>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> Total agreement.
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that affect all the sub projects.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ralph
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive conversations about this would be great.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that about two weeks ago
>>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before that a month ago
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is for).
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal
>>>>>> Senior software developer 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Magine TV
>>>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>    
>>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com  <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, 
>>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email.   
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

Thanks Matt!

Ralph

> On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:15 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> No other opinions apparently. I suppose we'll go with the single list with bounce messages. I'll follow up with infra later today.
> 
> On 18 March 2017 at 13:12, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
> OK. I guess I am fine with the bounce messages. Any other opinions?
> 
> Ralph
> 
>> On Mar 18, 2017, at 8:42 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> I got this response from Gavin:
>> 
>> Hi [~jvz] Sorry but I think I'm going to push back on that last request.
>> 
>> Merging the lists - no problem
>> Merging all the subscribers - no problem
>> Creating bounce messages directing people to use the merged target list - no problem
>> 
>> People will know in advance this merger is going to take place, and if they forget I think it'll take only one or two bounce messages to get the hint.
>> 
>> If you are :-
>> 
>> a) Happy with that - pick a date this can be done , let all lists users know this is happening and the date then let me know.
>> b) Not Happy with that - ping this ticket again and we'll escalate further.
>> 
>> Thanks
>> 
>> On 16 March 2017 at 22:23, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Oh, I didn't realise I had a response on how to handle that. Let me follow up with infra.
>> 
>> On 16 March 2017 at 21:46, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>> Is there any follow-up to this?  
>> 
>> Ralph
>> 
>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 1. That seems fine to me.
>>> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender but still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add [list] to the start of the subject line.
>>> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.
>>> 
>>> Ralph
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Some things:
>>>> 
>>>> 1. Archives won't be merged.
>>>> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
>>>> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically subscribed to the combined list.
>>>> 
>>>> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform senders to use the new list?
>>>> 
>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651>
>>>> 
>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>> Yes,
>>>> 
>>>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>>>> 
>>>> Ralph
>>>> 
>>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> Total agreement.
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that affect all the sub projects.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ralph
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive conversations about this would be great.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that about two weeks ago
>>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before that a month ago
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is for).
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal
>>>>>> Senior software developer 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Magine TV
>>>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>    
>>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com  <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, 
>>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email.   
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

Thanks Matt!

Ralph

> On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:15 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> No other opinions apparently. I suppose we'll go with the single list with bounce messages. I'll follow up with infra later today.
> 
> On 18 March 2017 at 13:12, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
> OK. I guess I am fine with the bounce messages. Any other opinions?
> 
> Ralph
> 
>> On Mar 18, 2017, at 8:42 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> I got this response from Gavin:
>> 
>> Hi [~jvz] Sorry but I think I'm going to push back on that last request.
>> 
>> Merging the lists - no problem
>> Merging all the subscribers - no problem
>> Creating bounce messages directing people to use the merged target list - no problem
>> 
>> People will know in advance this merger is going to take place, and if they forget I think it'll take only one or two bounce messages to get the hint.
>> 
>> If you are :-
>> 
>> a) Happy with that - pick a date this can be done , let all lists users know this is happening and the date then let me know.
>> b) Not Happy with that - ping this ticket again and we'll escalate further.
>> 
>> Thanks
>> 
>> On 16 March 2017 at 22:23, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Oh, I didn't realise I had a response on how to handle that. Let me follow up with infra.
>> 
>> On 16 March 2017 at 21:46, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>> Is there any follow-up to this?  
>> 
>> Ralph
>> 
>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 1. That seems fine to me.
>>> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender but still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add [list] to the start of the subject line.
>>> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.
>>> 
>>> Ralph
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Some things:
>>>> 
>>>> 1. Archives won't be merged.
>>>> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
>>>> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically subscribed to the combined list.
>>>> 
>>>> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform senders to use the new list?
>>>> 
>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651>
>>>> 
>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>> Yes,
>>>> 
>>>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>>>> 
>>>> Ralph
>>>> 
>>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> Total agreement.
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that affect all the sub projects.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ralph
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive conversations about this would be great.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that about two weeks ago
>>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before that a month ago
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is for).
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal
>>>>>> Senior software developer 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Magine TV
>>>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>    
>>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com  <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, 
>>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email.   
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

No other opinions apparently. I suppose we'll go with the single list with
bounce messages. I'll follow up with infra later today.

On 18 March 2017 at 13:12, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> OK. I guess I am fine with the bounce messages. Any other opinions?
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 18, 2017, at 8:42 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I got this response from Gavin:
>
> Hi [~jvz] Sorry but I think I'm going to push back on that last request.
>
> Merging the lists - no problem
> Merging all the subscribers - no problem
> Creating bounce messages directing people to use the merged target list -
> no problem
>
> People will know in advance this merger is going to take place, and if
> they forget I think it'll take only one or two bounce messages to get the
> hint.
>
> If you are :-
>
> a) Happy with that - pick a date this can be done , let all lists users
> know this is happening and the date then let me know.
> b) Not Happy with that - ping this ticket again and we'll escalate further.
>
> Thanks
>
> On 16 March 2017 at 22:23, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Oh, I didn't realise I had a response on how to handle that. Let me
>> follow up with infra.
>>
>> On 16 March 2017 at 21:46, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Is there any follow-up to this?
>>>
>>> Ralph
>>>
>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> 1. That seems fine to me.
>>> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender but
>>> still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add
>>> [list] to the start of the subject line.
>>> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.
>>>
>>> Ralph
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Some things:
>>>
>>> 1. Archives won't be merged.
>>> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email
>>> addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over
>>> to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
>>> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically
>>> subscribed to the combined list.
>>>
>>> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform senders
>>> to use the new list?
>>>
>>> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.
>>>> org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651
>>>>
>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Yes,
>>>>>
>>>>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and
>>>>> discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the
>>>>> user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Total agreement.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses
>>>>>>> dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that
>>>>>>> affect all the sub projects.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects.
>>>>>>> Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for
>>>>>>> his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and
>>>>>>> C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures
>>>>>>> and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive
>>>>>>> conversations about this would be great.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine.com
>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the
>>>>>>>> languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the
>>>>>>>> subprojects.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <
>>>>>>>> dpsenner@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging
>>>>>>>>> projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a
>>>>>>>>> very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache
>>>>>>>>> Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification
>>>>>>>>> implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all
>>>>>>>>> the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good
>>>>>>>>> reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same
>>>>>>>>> use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing
>>>>>>>>> lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just
>>>>>>>>> quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before
>>>>>>>>> that about two weeks ago
>>>>>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic
>>>>>>>>> before that a month ago
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that
>>>>>>>>> might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are
>>>>>>>>> just release announcements.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it
>>>>>>>>> doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should
>>>>>>>>> merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs
>>>>>>>>> to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't
>>>>>>>>> know what that list is for).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes
>>>>>>>>>> are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s
>>>>>>>>>> lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would
>>>>>>>>>> need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists
>>>>>>>>>> so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to
>>>>>>>>>> summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed
>>>>>>>>>> to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services
>>>>>>>>>> mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>>>>>>>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@,
>>>>>>>>>> general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become
>>>>>>>>>> aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails.
>>>>>>>>>> To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should
>>>>>>>>>> help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1
>>>>>>>>>> binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote
>>>>>>>>>> will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> [image: MagineTV]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *Mikael Ståldal*
>>>>>>>> Senior software developer
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *Magine TV*
>>>>>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com
>>>>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com
>>>>>>>> <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this
>>>>>>>> message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>>>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you
>>>>>>>> may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case,
>>>>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by
>>>>>>>> reply email.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>
>
>


-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

No other opinions apparently. I suppose we'll go with the single list with
bounce messages. I'll follow up with infra later today.

On 18 March 2017 at 13:12, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> OK. I guess I am fine with the bounce messages. Any other opinions?
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 18, 2017, at 8:42 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I got this response from Gavin:
>
> Hi [~jvz] Sorry but I think I'm going to push back on that last request.
>
> Merging the lists - no problem
> Merging all the subscribers - no problem
> Creating bounce messages directing people to use the merged target list -
> no problem
>
> People will know in advance this merger is going to take place, and if
> they forget I think it'll take only one or two bounce messages to get the
> hint.
>
> If you are :-
>
> a) Happy with that - pick a date this can be done , let all lists users
> know this is happening and the date then let me know.
> b) Not Happy with that - ping this ticket again and we'll escalate further.
>
> Thanks
>
> On 16 March 2017 at 22:23, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Oh, I didn't realise I had a response on how to handle that. Let me
>> follow up with infra.
>>
>> On 16 March 2017 at 21:46, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Is there any follow-up to this?
>>>
>>> Ralph
>>>
>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> 1. That seems fine to me.
>>> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender but
>>> still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add
>>> [list] to the start of the subject line.
>>> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.
>>>
>>> Ralph
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Some things:
>>>
>>> 1. Archives won't be merged.
>>> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email
>>> addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over
>>> to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
>>> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically
>>> subscribed to the combined list.
>>>
>>> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform senders
>>> to use the new list?
>>>
>>> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.
>>>> org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651
>>>>
>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Yes,
>>>>>
>>>>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and
>>>>> discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the
>>>>> user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Total agreement.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses
>>>>>>> dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that
>>>>>>> affect all the sub projects.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects.
>>>>>>> Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for
>>>>>>> his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and
>>>>>>> C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures
>>>>>>> and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive
>>>>>>> conversations about this would be great.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine.com
>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the
>>>>>>>> languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the
>>>>>>>> subprojects.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <
>>>>>>>> dpsenner@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging
>>>>>>>>> projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a
>>>>>>>>> very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache
>>>>>>>>> Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification
>>>>>>>>> implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all
>>>>>>>>> the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good
>>>>>>>>> reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same
>>>>>>>>> use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing
>>>>>>>>> lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just
>>>>>>>>> quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before
>>>>>>>>> that about two weeks ago
>>>>>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic
>>>>>>>>> before that a month ago
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that
>>>>>>>>> might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are
>>>>>>>>> just release announcements.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it
>>>>>>>>> doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should
>>>>>>>>> merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs
>>>>>>>>> to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't
>>>>>>>>> know what that list is for).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes
>>>>>>>>>> are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s
>>>>>>>>>> lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would
>>>>>>>>>> need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists
>>>>>>>>>> so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to
>>>>>>>>>> summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed
>>>>>>>>>> to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services
>>>>>>>>>> mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>>>>>>>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@,
>>>>>>>>>> general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become
>>>>>>>>>> aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails.
>>>>>>>>>> To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should
>>>>>>>>>> help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1
>>>>>>>>>> binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote
>>>>>>>>>> will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> [image: MagineTV]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *Mikael Ståldal*
>>>>>>>> Senior software developer
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *Magine TV*
>>>>>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com
>>>>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com
>>>>>>>> <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this
>>>>>>>> message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>>>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you
>>>>>>>> may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case,
>>>>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by
>>>>>>>> reply email.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>
>
>


-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

No other opinions apparently. I suppose we'll go with the single list with
bounce messages. I'll follow up with infra later today.

On 18 March 2017 at 13:12, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> OK. I guess I am fine with the bounce messages. Any other opinions?
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 18, 2017, at 8:42 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I got this response from Gavin:
>
> Hi [~jvz] Sorry but I think I'm going to push back on that last request.
>
> Merging the lists - no problem
> Merging all the subscribers - no problem
> Creating bounce messages directing people to use the merged target list -
> no problem
>
> People will know in advance this merger is going to take place, and if
> they forget I think it'll take only one or two bounce messages to get the
> hint.
>
> If you are :-
>
> a) Happy with that - pick a date this can be done , let all lists users
> know this is happening and the date then let me know.
> b) Not Happy with that - ping this ticket again and we'll escalate further.
>
> Thanks
>
> On 16 March 2017 at 22:23, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Oh, I didn't realise I had a response on how to handle that. Let me
>> follow up with infra.
>>
>> On 16 March 2017 at 21:46, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Is there any follow-up to this?
>>>
>>> Ralph
>>>
>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> 1. That seems fine to me.
>>> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender but
>>> still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add
>>> [list] to the start of the subject line.
>>> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.
>>>
>>> Ralph
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Some things:
>>>
>>> 1. Archives won't be merged.
>>> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email
>>> addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over
>>> to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
>>> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically
>>> subscribed to the combined list.
>>>
>>> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform senders
>>> to use the new list?
>>>
>>> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.
>>>> org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651
>>>>
>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Yes,
>>>>>
>>>>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and
>>>>> discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the
>>>>> user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Total agreement.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses
>>>>>>> dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that
>>>>>>> affect all the sub projects.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects.
>>>>>>> Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for
>>>>>>> his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and
>>>>>>> C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures
>>>>>>> and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive
>>>>>>> conversations about this would be great.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine.com
>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the
>>>>>>>> languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the
>>>>>>>> subprojects.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <
>>>>>>>> dpsenner@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging
>>>>>>>>> projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a
>>>>>>>>> very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache
>>>>>>>>> Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification
>>>>>>>>> implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all
>>>>>>>>> the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good
>>>>>>>>> reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same
>>>>>>>>> use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing
>>>>>>>>> lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just
>>>>>>>>> quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before
>>>>>>>>> that about two weeks ago
>>>>>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic
>>>>>>>>> before that a month ago
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that
>>>>>>>>> might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are
>>>>>>>>> just release announcements.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it
>>>>>>>>> doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should
>>>>>>>>> merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs
>>>>>>>>> to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't
>>>>>>>>> know what that list is for).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes
>>>>>>>>>> are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s
>>>>>>>>>> lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would
>>>>>>>>>> need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists
>>>>>>>>>> so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to
>>>>>>>>>> summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed
>>>>>>>>>> to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services
>>>>>>>>>> mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>>>>>>>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@,
>>>>>>>>>> general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become
>>>>>>>>>> aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails.
>>>>>>>>>> To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should
>>>>>>>>>> help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1
>>>>>>>>>> binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote
>>>>>>>>>> will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> [image: MagineTV]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *Mikael Ståldal*
>>>>>>>> Senior software developer
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *Magine TV*
>>>>>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com
>>>>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com
>>>>>>>> <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this
>>>>>>>> message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>>>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you
>>>>>>>> may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case,
>>>>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by
>>>>>>>> reply email.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>
>
>


-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

No other opinions apparently. I suppose we'll go with the single list with
bounce messages. I'll follow up with infra later today.

On 18 March 2017 at 13:12, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> OK. I guess I am fine with the bounce messages. Any other opinions?
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 18, 2017, at 8:42 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I got this response from Gavin:
>
> Hi [~jvz] Sorry but I think I'm going to push back on that last request.
>
> Merging the lists - no problem
> Merging all the subscribers - no problem
> Creating bounce messages directing people to use the merged target list -
> no problem
>
> People will know in advance this merger is going to take place, and if
> they forget I think it'll take only one or two bounce messages to get the
> hint.
>
> If you are :-
>
> a) Happy with that - pick a date this can be done , let all lists users
> know this is happening and the date then let me know.
> b) Not Happy with that - ping this ticket again and we'll escalate further.
>
> Thanks
>
> On 16 March 2017 at 22:23, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Oh, I didn't realise I had a response on how to handle that. Let me
>> follow up with infra.
>>
>> On 16 March 2017 at 21:46, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Is there any follow-up to this?
>>>
>>> Ralph
>>>
>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> 1. That seems fine to me.
>>> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender but
>>> still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add
>>> [list] to the start of the subject line.
>>> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.
>>>
>>> Ralph
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Some things:
>>>
>>> 1. Archives won't be merged.
>>> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email
>>> addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over
>>> to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
>>> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically
>>> subscribed to the combined list.
>>>
>>> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform senders
>>> to use the new list?
>>>
>>> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.
>>>> org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651
>>>>
>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Yes,
>>>>>
>>>>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and
>>>>> discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the
>>>>> user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Total agreement.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses
>>>>>>> dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that
>>>>>>> affect all the sub projects.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects.
>>>>>>> Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for
>>>>>>> his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and
>>>>>>> C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures
>>>>>>> and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive
>>>>>>> conversations about this would be great.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine.com
>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the
>>>>>>>> languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the
>>>>>>>> subprojects.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <
>>>>>>>> dpsenner@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging
>>>>>>>>> projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a
>>>>>>>>> very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache
>>>>>>>>> Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification
>>>>>>>>> implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all
>>>>>>>>> the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good
>>>>>>>>> reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same
>>>>>>>>> use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing
>>>>>>>>> lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just
>>>>>>>>> quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before
>>>>>>>>> that about two weeks ago
>>>>>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic
>>>>>>>>> before that a month ago
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that
>>>>>>>>> might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are
>>>>>>>>> just release announcements.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it
>>>>>>>>> doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should
>>>>>>>>> merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs
>>>>>>>>> to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't
>>>>>>>>> know what that list is for).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes
>>>>>>>>>> are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s
>>>>>>>>>> lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would
>>>>>>>>>> need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists
>>>>>>>>>> so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to
>>>>>>>>>> summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed
>>>>>>>>>> to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services
>>>>>>>>>> mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>>>>>>>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@,
>>>>>>>>>> general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become
>>>>>>>>>> aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails.
>>>>>>>>>> To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should
>>>>>>>>>> help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1
>>>>>>>>>> binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote
>>>>>>>>>> will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> [image: MagineTV]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *Mikael Ståldal*
>>>>>>>> Senior software developer
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *Magine TV*
>>>>>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com
>>>>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com
>>>>>>>> <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this
>>>>>>>> message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>>>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you
>>>>>>>> may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case,
>>>>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by
>>>>>>>> reply email.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>
>
>


-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

OK. I guess I am fine with the bounce messages. Any other opinions?

Ralph

> On Mar 18, 2017, at 8:42 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I got this response from Gavin:
> 
> Hi [~jvz] Sorry but I think I'm going to push back on that last request.
> 
> Merging the lists - no problem
> Merging all the subscribers - no problem
> Creating bounce messages directing people to use the merged target list - no problem
> 
> People will know in advance this merger is going to take place, and if they forget I think it'll take only one or two bounce messages to get the hint.
> 
> If you are :-
> 
> a) Happy with that - pick a date this can be done , let all lists users know this is happening and the date then let me know.
> b) Not Happy with that - ping this ticket again and we'll escalate further.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> On 16 March 2017 at 22:23, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Oh, I didn't realise I had a response on how to handle that. Let me follow up with infra.
> 
> On 16 March 2017 at 21:46, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
> Is there any follow-up to this?  
> 
> Ralph
> 
>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> 1. That seems fine to me.
>> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender but still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add [list] to the start of the subject line.
>> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.
>> 
>> Ralph
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Some things:
>>> 
>>> 1. Archives won't be merged.
>>> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
>>> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically subscribed to the combined list.
>>> 
>>> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform senders to use the new list?
>>> 
>>> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651>
>>> 
>>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>> Yes,
>>> 
>>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>>> 
>>> Ralph
>>> 
>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>>>> 
>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> Total agreement.
>>>> 
>>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that affect all the sub projects.
>>>> 
>>>> Ralph
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>>>> 
>>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive conversations about this would be great.
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>> wrote:
>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>> 
>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that about two weeks ago
>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before that a month ago
>>>>> 
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is for).
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>>  
>>>>> 
>>>>> Mikael Ståldal
>>>>> Senior software developer 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Magine TV
>>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>    
>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com  <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>> 
>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, 
>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email.   
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

OK. I guess I am fine with the bounce messages. Any other opinions?

Ralph

> On Mar 18, 2017, at 8:42 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I got this response from Gavin:
> 
> Hi [~jvz] Sorry but I think I'm going to push back on that last request.
> 
> Merging the lists - no problem
> Merging all the subscribers - no problem
> Creating bounce messages directing people to use the merged target list - no problem
> 
> People will know in advance this merger is going to take place, and if they forget I think it'll take only one or two bounce messages to get the hint.
> 
> If you are :-
> 
> a) Happy with that - pick a date this can be done , let all lists users know this is happening and the date then let me know.
> b) Not Happy with that - ping this ticket again and we'll escalate further.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> On 16 March 2017 at 22:23, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Oh, I didn't realise I had a response on how to handle that. Let me follow up with infra.
> 
> On 16 March 2017 at 21:46, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
> Is there any follow-up to this?  
> 
> Ralph
> 
>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> 1. That seems fine to me.
>> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender but still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add [list] to the start of the subject line.
>> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.
>> 
>> Ralph
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Some things:
>>> 
>>> 1. Archives won't be merged.
>>> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
>>> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically subscribed to the combined list.
>>> 
>>> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform senders to use the new list?
>>> 
>>> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651>
>>> 
>>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>> Yes,
>>> 
>>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>>> 
>>> Ralph
>>> 
>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>>>> 
>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> Total agreement.
>>>> 
>>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that affect all the sub projects.
>>>> 
>>>> Ralph
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>>>> 
>>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive conversations about this would be great.
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>> wrote:
>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>> 
>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that about two weeks ago
>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before that a month ago
>>>>> 
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is for).
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>>  
>>>>> 
>>>>> Mikael Ståldal
>>>>> Senior software developer 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Magine TV
>>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>    
>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com  <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>> 
>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, 
>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email.   
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

OK. I guess I am fine with the bounce messages. Any other opinions?

Ralph

> On Mar 18, 2017, at 8:42 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I got this response from Gavin:
> 
> Hi [~jvz] Sorry but I think I'm going to push back on that last request.
> 
> Merging the lists - no problem
> Merging all the subscribers - no problem
> Creating bounce messages directing people to use the merged target list - no problem
> 
> People will know in advance this merger is going to take place, and if they forget I think it'll take only one or two bounce messages to get the hint.
> 
> If you are :-
> 
> a) Happy with that - pick a date this can be done , let all lists users know this is happening and the date then let me know.
> b) Not Happy with that - ping this ticket again and we'll escalate further.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> On 16 March 2017 at 22:23, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Oh, I didn't realise I had a response on how to handle that. Let me follow up with infra.
> 
> On 16 March 2017 at 21:46, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
> Is there any follow-up to this?  
> 
> Ralph
> 
>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> 1. That seems fine to me.
>> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender but still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add [list] to the start of the subject line.
>> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.
>> 
>> Ralph
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Some things:
>>> 
>>> 1. Archives won't be merged.
>>> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
>>> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically subscribed to the combined list.
>>> 
>>> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform senders to use the new list?
>>> 
>>> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651>
>>> 
>>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>> Yes,
>>> 
>>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>>> 
>>> Ralph
>>> 
>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>>>> 
>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> Total agreement.
>>>> 
>>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that affect all the sub projects.
>>>> 
>>>> Ralph
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>>>> 
>>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive conversations about this would be great.
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>> wrote:
>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>> 
>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that about two weeks ago
>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before that a month ago
>>>>> 
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is for).
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>>  
>>>>> 
>>>>> Mikael Ståldal
>>>>> Senior software developer 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Magine TV
>>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>    
>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com  <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>> 
>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, 
>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email.   
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

OK. I guess I am fine with the bounce messages. Any other opinions?

Ralph

> On Mar 18, 2017, at 8:42 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I got this response from Gavin:
> 
> Hi [~jvz] Sorry but I think I'm going to push back on that last request.
> 
> Merging the lists - no problem
> Merging all the subscribers - no problem
> Creating bounce messages directing people to use the merged target list - no problem
> 
> People will know in advance this merger is going to take place, and if they forget I think it'll take only one or two bounce messages to get the hint.
> 
> If you are :-
> 
> a) Happy with that - pick a date this can be done , let all lists users know this is happening and the date then let me know.
> b) Not Happy with that - ping this ticket again and we'll escalate further.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> On 16 March 2017 at 22:23, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Oh, I didn't realise I had a response on how to handle that. Let me follow up with infra.
> 
> On 16 March 2017 at 21:46, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
> Is there any follow-up to this?  
> 
> Ralph
> 
>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> 1. That seems fine to me.
>> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender but still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add [list] to the start of the subject line.
>> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.
>> 
>> Ralph
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Some things:
>>> 
>>> 1. Archives won't be merged.
>>> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
>>> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically subscribed to the combined list.
>>> 
>>> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform senders to use the new list?
>>> 
>>> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651>
>>> 
>>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>> Yes,
>>> 
>>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>>> 
>>> Ralph
>>> 
>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>>>> 
>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> Total agreement.
>>>> 
>>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that affect all the sub projects.
>>>> 
>>>> Ralph
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>>>> 
>>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive conversations about this would be great.
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>> wrote:
>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>> 
>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that about two weeks ago
>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before that a month ago
>>>>> 
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is for).
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>>  
>>>>> 
>>>>> Mikael Ståldal
>>>>> Senior software developer 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Magine TV
>>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>    
>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com  <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>> 
>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, 
>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email.   
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

I got this response from Gavin:

Hi [~jvz] Sorry but I think I'm going to push back on that last request.

Merging the lists - no problem
Merging all the subscribers - no problem
Creating bounce messages directing people to use the merged target list -
no problem

People will know in advance this merger is going to take place, and if they
forget I think it'll take only one or two bounce messages to get the hint.

If you are :-

a) Happy with that - pick a date this can be done , let all lists users
know this is happening and the date then let me know.
b) Not Happy with that - ping this ticket again and we'll escalate further.

Thanks

On 16 March 2017 at 22:23, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Oh, I didn't realise I had a response on how to handle that. Let me follow
> up with infra.
>
> On 16 March 2017 at 21:46, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>
>> Is there any follow-up to this?
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> 1. That seems fine to me.
>> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender but
>> still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add
>> [list] to the start of the subject line.
>> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Some things:
>>
>> 1. Archives won't be merged.
>> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email
>> addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over
>> to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
>> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically
>> subscribed to the combined list.
>>
>> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform senders
>> to use the new list?
>>
>> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.
>>> org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651
>>>
>>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes,
>>>>
>>>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>>>>
>>>> Ralph
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and
>>>> discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the
>>>> user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>>>>
>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Total agreement.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses
>>>>>> dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that
>>>>>> affect all the sub projects.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects.
>>>>>> Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for
>>>>>> his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and
>>>>>> C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures
>>>>>> and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive
>>>>>> conversations about this would be great.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mi...@magine.com>
>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the
>>>>>>> languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the
>>>>>>> subprojects.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <
>>>>>>> dpsenner@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging
>>>>>>>> projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a
>>>>>>>> very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache
>>>>>>>> Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification
>>>>>>>> implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all
>>>>>>>> the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good
>>>>>>>> reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same
>>>>>>>> use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing
>>>>>>>> lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just
>>>>>>>> quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before
>>>>>>>> that about two weeks ago
>>>>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic
>>>>>>>> before that a month ago
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might
>>>>>>>> be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just
>>>>>>>> release announcements.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't
>>>>>>>> cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge
>>>>>>>> the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to
>>>>>>>> subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know
>>>>>>>> what that list is for).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes
>>>>>>>>> are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists
>>>>>>>>> separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need
>>>>>>>>> to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists
>>>>>>>>> so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to
>>>>>>>>> summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed
>>>>>>>>> to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services
>>>>>>>>> mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>>>>>>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@
>>>>>>>>> -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases
>>>>>>>>> for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To
>>>>>>>>> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should
>>>>>>>>> help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1
>>>>>>>>> binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote
>>>>>>>>> will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> [image: MagineTV]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Mikael Ståldal*
>>>>>>> Senior software developer
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Magine TV*
>>>>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com
>>>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com
>>>>>>> <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this
>>>>>>> message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you
>>>>>>> may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case,
>>>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by
>>>>>>> reply email.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>



-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

I got this response from Gavin:

Hi [~jvz] Sorry but I think I'm going to push back on that last request.

Merging the lists - no problem
Merging all the subscribers - no problem
Creating bounce messages directing people to use the merged target list -
no problem

People will know in advance this merger is going to take place, and if they
forget I think it'll take only one or two bounce messages to get the hint.

If you are :-

a) Happy with that - pick a date this can be done , let all lists users
know this is happening and the date then let me know.
b) Not Happy with that - ping this ticket again and we'll escalate further.

Thanks

On 16 March 2017 at 22:23, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Oh, I didn't realise I had a response on how to handle that. Let me follow
> up with infra.
>
> On 16 March 2017 at 21:46, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>
>> Is there any follow-up to this?
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> 1. That seems fine to me.
>> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender but
>> still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add
>> [list] to the start of the subject line.
>> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Some things:
>>
>> 1. Archives won't be merged.
>> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email
>> addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over
>> to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
>> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically
>> subscribed to the combined list.
>>
>> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform senders
>> to use the new list?
>>
>> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.
>>> org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651
>>>
>>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes,
>>>>
>>>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>>>>
>>>> Ralph
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and
>>>> discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the
>>>> user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>>>>
>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Total agreement.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses
>>>>>> dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that
>>>>>> affect all the sub projects.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects.
>>>>>> Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for
>>>>>> his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and
>>>>>> C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures
>>>>>> and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive
>>>>>> conversations about this would be great.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mi...@magine.com>
>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the
>>>>>>> languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the
>>>>>>> subprojects.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <
>>>>>>> dpsenner@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging
>>>>>>>> projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a
>>>>>>>> very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache
>>>>>>>> Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification
>>>>>>>> implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all
>>>>>>>> the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good
>>>>>>>> reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same
>>>>>>>> use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing
>>>>>>>> lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just
>>>>>>>> quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before
>>>>>>>> that about two weeks ago
>>>>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic
>>>>>>>> before that a month ago
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might
>>>>>>>> be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just
>>>>>>>> release announcements.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't
>>>>>>>> cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge
>>>>>>>> the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to
>>>>>>>> subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know
>>>>>>>> what that list is for).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes
>>>>>>>>> are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists
>>>>>>>>> separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need
>>>>>>>>> to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists
>>>>>>>>> so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to
>>>>>>>>> summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed
>>>>>>>>> to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services
>>>>>>>>> mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>>>>>>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@
>>>>>>>>> -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases
>>>>>>>>> for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To
>>>>>>>>> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should
>>>>>>>>> help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1
>>>>>>>>> binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote
>>>>>>>>> will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> [image: MagineTV]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Mikael Ståldal*
>>>>>>> Senior software developer
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Magine TV*
>>>>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com
>>>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com
>>>>>>> <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this
>>>>>>> message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you
>>>>>>> may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case,
>>>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by
>>>>>>> reply email.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>



-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

I got this response from Gavin:

Hi [~jvz] Sorry but I think I'm going to push back on that last request.

Merging the lists - no problem
Merging all the subscribers - no problem
Creating bounce messages directing people to use the merged target list -
no problem

People will know in advance this merger is going to take place, and if they
forget I think it'll take only one or two bounce messages to get the hint.

If you are :-

a) Happy with that - pick a date this can be done , let all lists users
know this is happening and the date then let me know.
b) Not Happy with that - ping this ticket again and we'll escalate further.

Thanks

On 16 March 2017 at 22:23, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Oh, I didn't realise I had a response on how to handle that. Let me follow
> up with infra.
>
> On 16 March 2017 at 21:46, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>
>> Is there any follow-up to this?
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> 1. That seems fine to me.
>> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender but
>> still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add
>> [list] to the start of the subject line.
>> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Some things:
>>
>> 1. Archives won't be merged.
>> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email
>> addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over
>> to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
>> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically
>> subscribed to the combined list.
>>
>> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform senders
>> to use the new list?
>>
>> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.
>>> org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651
>>>
>>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes,
>>>>
>>>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>>>>
>>>> Ralph
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and
>>>> discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the
>>>> user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>>>>
>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Total agreement.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses
>>>>>> dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that
>>>>>> affect all the sub projects.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects.
>>>>>> Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for
>>>>>> his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and
>>>>>> C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures
>>>>>> and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive
>>>>>> conversations about this would be great.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mi...@magine.com>
>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the
>>>>>>> languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the
>>>>>>> subprojects.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <
>>>>>>> dpsenner@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging
>>>>>>>> projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a
>>>>>>>> very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache
>>>>>>>> Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification
>>>>>>>> implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all
>>>>>>>> the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good
>>>>>>>> reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same
>>>>>>>> use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing
>>>>>>>> lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just
>>>>>>>> quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before
>>>>>>>> that about two weeks ago
>>>>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic
>>>>>>>> before that a month ago
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might
>>>>>>>> be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just
>>>>>>>> release announcements.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't
>>>>>>>> cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge
>>>>>>>> the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to
>>>>>>>> subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know
>>>>>>>> what that list is for).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes
>>>>>>>>> are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists
>>>>>>>>> separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need
>>>>>>>>> to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists
>>>>>>>>> so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to
>>>>>>>>> summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed
>>>>>>>>> to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services
>>>>>>>>> mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>>>>>>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@
>>>>>>>>> -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases
>>>>>>>>> for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To
>>>>>>>>> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should
>>>>>>>>> help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1
>>>>>>>>> binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote
>>>>>>>>> will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> [image: MagineTV]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Mikael Ståldal*
>>>>>>> Senior software developer
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Magine TV*
>>>>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com
>>>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com
>>>>>>> <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this
>>>>>>> message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you
>>>>>>> may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case,
>>>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by
>>>>>>> reply email.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>



-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

I got this response from Gavin:

Hi [~jvz] Sorry but I think I'm going to push back on that last request.

Merging the lists - no problem
Merging all the subscribers - no problem
Creating bounce messages directing people to use the merged target list -
no problem

People will know in advance this merger is going to take place, and if they
forget I think it'll take only one or two bounce messages to get the hint.

If you are :-

a) Happy with that - pick a date this can be done , let all lists users
know this is happening and the date then let me know.
b) Not Happy with that - ping this ticket again and we'll escalate further.

Thanks

On 16 March 2017 at 22:23, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Oh, I didn't realise I had a response on how to handle that. Let me follow
> up with infra.
>
> On 16 March 2017 at 21:46, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>
>> Is there any follow-up to this?
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> 1. That seems fine to me.
>> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender but
>> still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add
>> [list] to the start of the subject line.
>> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Some things:
>>
>> 1. Archives won't be merged.
>> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email
>> addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over
>> to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
>> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically
>> subscribed to the combined list.
>>
>> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform senders
>> to use the new list?
>>
>> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.
>>> org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651
>>>
>>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes,
>>>>
>>>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>>>>
>>>> Ralph
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and
>>>> discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the
>>>> user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>>>>
>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Total agreement.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses
>>>>>> dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that
>>>>>> affect all the sub projects.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects.
>>>>>> Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for
>>>>>> his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and
>>>>>> C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures
>>>>>> and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive
>>>>>> conversations about this would be great.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mi...@magine.com>
>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the
>>>>>>> languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the
>>>>>>> subprojects.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <
>>>>>>> dpsenner@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging
>>>>>>>> projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a
>>>>>>>> very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache
>>>>>>>> Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification
>>>>>>>> implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all
>>>>>>>> the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good
>>>>>>>> reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same
>>>>>>>> use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing
>>>>>>>> lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just
>>>>>>>> quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before
>>>>>>>> that about two weeks ago
>>>>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic
>>>>>>>> before that a month ago
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might
>>>>>>>> be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just
>>>>>>>> release announcements.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't
>>>>>>>> cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge
>>>>>>>> the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to
>>>>>>>> subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know
>>>>>>>> what that list is for).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes
>>>>>>>>> are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists
>>>>>>>>> separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need
>>>>>>>>> to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists
>>>>>>>>> so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to
>>>>>>>>> summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed
>>>>>>>>> to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services
>>>>>>>>> mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>>>>>>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@
>>>>>>>>> -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases
>>>>>>>>> for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To
>>>>>>>>> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should
>>>>>>>>> help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1
>>>>>>>>> binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote
>>>>>>>>> will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> [image: MagineTV]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Mikael Ståldal*
>>>>>>> Senior software developer
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Magine TV*
>>>>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com
>>>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com
>>>>>>> <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this
>>>>>>> message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you
>>>>>>> may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case,
>>>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by
>>>>>>> reply email.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>



-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

Oh, I didn't realise I had a response on how to handle that. Let me follow
up with infra.

On 16 March 2017 at 21:46, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> Is there any follow-up to this?
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
> wrote:
>
> 1. That seems fine to me.
> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender but
> still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add
> [list] to the start of the subject line.
> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.
>
> Ralph
>
>
>
> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Some things:
>
> 1. Archives won't be merged.
> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email
> addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over
> to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically
> subscribed to the combined list.
>
> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform senders
> to use the new list?
>
> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.
>> org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651
>>
>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Yes,
>>>
>>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>>>
>>> Ralph
>>>
>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and
>>> discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the
>>> user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>>>
>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Total agreement.
>>>>
>>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses
>>>>> dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that
>>>>> affect all the sub projects.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects.
>>>>> Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for
>>>>> his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>>>>
>>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++)
>>>>> aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and
>>>>> plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive
>>>>> conversations about this would be great.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mi...@magine.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the
>>>>>> languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the
>>>>>> subprojects.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com
>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging
>>>>>>> projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a
>>>>>>> very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache
>>>>>>> Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification
>>>>>>> implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all
>>>>>>> the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good
>>>>>>> reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same
>>>>>>> use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing
>>>>>>> lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just
>>>>>>> quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that
>>>>>>> about two weeks ago
>>>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic
>>>>>>> before that a month ago
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might
>>>>>>> be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just
>>>>>>> release announcements.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't
>>>>>>> cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge
>>>>>>> the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to
>>>>>>> subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know
>>>>>>> what that list is for).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are
>>>>>>>> “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists
>>>>>>>> separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need
>>>>>>>> to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so
>>>>>>>> that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize
>>>>>>>> the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed
>>>>>>>> to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing
>>>>>>>> lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>>>>>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@
>>>>>>>> -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases
>>>>>>>> for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To
>>>>>>>> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should
>>>>>>>> help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding,
>>>>>>>> no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be
>>>>>>>> open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> [image: MagineTV]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Mikael Ståldal*
>>>>>> Senior software developer
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Magine TV*
>>>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com
>>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com
>>>>>> <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this
>>>>>> message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you
>>>>>> may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case,
>>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply
>>>>>> email.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>
>
>
>


-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

Oh, I didn't realise I had a response on how to handle that. Let me follow
up with infra.

On 16 March 2017 at 21:46, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> Is there any follow-up to this?
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
> wrote:
>
> 1. That seems fine to me.
> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender but
> still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add
> [list] to the start of the subject line.
> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.
>
> Ralph
>
>
>
> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Some things:
>
> 1. Archives won't be merged.
> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email
> addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over
> to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically
> subscribed to the combined list.
>
> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform senders
> to use the new list?
>
> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.
>> org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651
>>
>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Yes,
>>>
>>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>>>
>>> Ralph
>>>
>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and
>>> discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the
>>> user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>>>
>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Total agreement.
>>>>
>>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses
>>>>> dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that
>>>>> affect all the sub projects.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects.
>>>>> Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for
>>>>> his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>>>>
>>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++)
>>>>> aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and
>>>>> plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive
>>>>> conversations about this would be great.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mi...@magine.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the
>>>>>> languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the
>>>>>> subprojects.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com
>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging
>>>>>>> projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a
>>>>>>> very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache
>>>>>>> Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification
>>>>>>> implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all
>>>>>>> the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good
>>>>>>> reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same
>>>>>>> use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing
>>>>>>> lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just
>>>>>>> quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that
>>>>>>> about two weeks ago
>>>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic
>>>>>>> before that a month ago
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might
>>>>>>> be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just
>>>>>>> release announcements.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't
>>>>>>> cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge
>>>>>>> the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to
>>>>>>> subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know
>>>>>>> what that list is for).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are
>>>>>>>> “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists
>>>>>>>> separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need
>>>>>>>> to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so
>>>>>>>> that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize
>>>>>>>> the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed
>>>>>>>> to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing
>>>>>>>> lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>>>>>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@
>>>>>>>> -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases
>>>>>>>> for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To
>>>>>>>> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should
>>>>>>>> help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding,
>>>>>>>> no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be
>>>>>>>> open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> [image: MagineTV]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Mikael Ståldal*
>>>>>> Senior software developer
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Magine TV*
>>>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com
>>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com
>>>>>> <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this
>>>>>> message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you
>>>>>> may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case,
>>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply
>>>>>> email.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>
>
>
>


-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

Oh, I didn't realise I had a response on how to handle that. Let me follow
up with infra.

On 16 March 2017 at 21:46, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> Is there any follow-up to this?
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
> wrote:
>
> 1. That seems fine to me.
> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender but
> still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add
> [list] to the start of the subject line.
> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.
>
> Ralph
>
>
>
> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Some things:
>
> 1. Archives won't be merged.
> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email
> addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over
> to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically
> subscribed to the combined list.
>
> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform senders
> to use the new list?
>
> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.
>> org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651
>>
>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Yes,
>>>
>>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>>>
>>> Ralph
>>>
>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and
>>> discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the
>>> user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>>>
>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Total agreement.
>>>>
>>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses
>>>>> dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that
>>>>> affect all the sub projects.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects.
>>>>> Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for
>>>>> his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>>>>
>>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++)
>>>>> aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and
>>>>> plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive
>>>>> conversations about this would be great.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mi...@magine.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the
>>>>>> languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the
>>>>>> subprojects.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com
>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging
>>>>>>> projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a
>>>>>>> very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache
>>>>>>> Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification
>>>>>>> implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all
>>>>>>> the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good
>>>>>>> reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same
>>>>>>> use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing
>>>>>>> lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just
>>>>>>> quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that
>>>>>>> about two weeks ago
>>>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic
>>>>>>> before that a month ago
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might
>>>>>>> be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just
>>>>>>> release announcements.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't
>>>>>>> cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge
>>>>>>> the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to
>>>>>>> subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know
>>>>>>> what that list is for).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are
>>>>>>>> “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists
>>>>>>>> separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need
>>>>>>>> to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so
>>>>>>>> that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize
>>>>>>>> the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed
>>>>>>>> to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing
>>>>>>>> lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>>>>>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@
>>>>>>>> -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases
>>>>>>>> for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To
>>>>>>>> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should
>>>>>>>> help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding,
>>>>>>>> no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be
>>>>>>>> open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> [image: MagineTV]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Mikael Ståldal*
>>>>>> Senior software developer
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Magine TV*
>>>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com
>>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com
>>>>>> <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this
>>>>>> message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you
>>>>>> may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case,
>>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply
>>>>>> email.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>
>
>
>


-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

Oh, I didn't realise I had a response on how to handle that. Let me follow
up with infra.

On 16 March 2017 at 21:46, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> Is there any follow-up to this?
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
> wrote:
>
> 1. That seems fine to me.
> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender but
> still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add
> [list] to the start of the subject line.
> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.
>
> Ralph
>
>
>
> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Some things:
>
> 1. Archives won't be merged.
> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email
> addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over
> to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically
> subscribed to the combined list.
>
> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform senders
> to use the new list?
>
> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.
>> org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651
>>
>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Yes,
>>>
>>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>>>
>>> Ralph
>>>
>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and
>>> discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the
>>> user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>>>
>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Total agreement.
>>>>
>>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses
>>>>> dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that
>>>>> affect all the sub projects.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects.
>>>>> Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for
>>>>> his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>>>>
>>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++)
>>>>> aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and
>>>>> plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive
>>>>> conversations about this would be great.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mi...@magine.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the
>>>>>> languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the
>>>>>> subprojects.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com
>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging
>>>>>>> projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a
>>>>>>> very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache
>>>>>>> Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification
>>>>>>> implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all
>>>>>>> the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good
>>>>>>> reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same
>>>>>>> use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing
>>>>>>> lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just
>>>>>>> quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that
>>>>>>> about two weeks ago
>>>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic
>>>>>>> before that a month ago
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might
>>>>>>> be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just
>>>>>>> release announcements.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't
>>>>>>> cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge
>>>>>>> the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to
>>>>>>> subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know
>>>>>>> what that list is for).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are
>>>>>>>> “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists
>>>>>>>> separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need
>>>>>>>> to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so
>>>>>>>> that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize
>>>>>>>> the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed
>>>>>>>> to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing
>>>>>>>> lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>>>>>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@
>>>>>>>> -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases
>>>>>>>> for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To
>>>>>>>> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should
>>>>>>>> help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding,
>>>>>>>> no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be
>>>>>>>> open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> [image: MagineTV]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Mikael Ståldal*
>>>>>> Senior software developer
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Magine TV*
>>>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com
>>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com
>>>>>> <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this
>>>>>> message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you
>>>>>> may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case,
>>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply
>>>>>> email.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>
>
>
>


-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

Is there any follow-up to this?  

Ralph

> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
> 
> 1. That seems fine to me.
> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender but still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add [list] to the start of the subject line.
> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.
> 
> Ralph
> 
> 
> 
>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Some things:
>> 
>> 1. Archives won't be merged.
>> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
>> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically subscribed to the combined list.
>> 
>> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform senders to use the new list?
>> 
>> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651>
>> 
>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>> Yes,
>> 
>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>> 
>> Ralph
>> 
>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>>> 
>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> Total agreement.
>>> 
>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that affect all the sub projects.
>>> 
>>> Ralph
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>>> 
>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive conversations about this would be great.
>>>> 
>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>> wrote:
>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.
>>>> 
>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>> 
>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that about two weeks ago
>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before that a month ago
>>>> 
>>>> Cheers
>>>> 
>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ralph
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is for).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> Mikael Ståldal
>>>> Senior software developer 
>>>> 
>>>> Magine TV
>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>    
>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com  <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>> 
>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, 
>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email.   
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> 

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

Is there any follow-up to this?  

Ralph

> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
> 
> 1. That seems fine to me.
> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender but still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add [list] to the start of the subject line.
> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.
> 
> Ralph
> 
> 
> 
>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Some things:
>> 
>> 1. Archives won't be merged.
>> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
>> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically subscribed to the combined list.
>> 
>> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform senders to use the new list?
>> 
>> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651>
>> 
>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>> Yes,
>> 
>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>> 
>> Ralph
>> 
>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>>> 
>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> Total agreement.
>>> 
>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that affect all the sub projects.
>>> 
>>> Ralph
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>>> 
>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive conversations about this would be great.
>>>> 
>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>> wrote:
>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.
>>>> 
>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>> 
>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that about two weeks ago
>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before that a month ago
>>>> 
>>>> Cheers
>>>> 
>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ralph
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is for).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> Mikael Ståldal
>>>> Senior software developer 
>>>> 
>>>> Magine TV
>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>    
>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com  <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>> 
>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, 
>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email.   
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> 

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

Is there any follow-up to this?  

Ralph

> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
> 
> 1. That seems fine to me.
> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender but still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add [list] to the start of the subject line.
> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.
> 
> Ralph
> 
> 
> 
>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Some things:
>> 
>> 1. Archives won't be merged.
>> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
>> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically subscribed to the combined list.
>> 
>> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform senders to use the new list?
>> 
>> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651>
>> 
>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>> Yes,
>> 
>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>> 
>> Ralph
>> 
>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>>> 
>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> Total agreement.
>>> 
>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that affect all the sub projects.
>>> 
>>> Ralph
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>>> 
>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive conversations about this would be great.
>>>> 
>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>> wrote:
>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.
>>>> 
>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>> 
>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that about two weeks ago
>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before that a month ago
>>>> 
>>>> Cheers
>>>> 
>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ralph
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is for).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> Mikael Ståldal
>>>> Senior software developer 
>>>> 
>>>> Magine TV
>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>    
>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com  <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>> 
>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, 
>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email.   
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> 

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

Is there any follow-up to this?  

Ralph

> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
> 
> 1. That seems fine to me.
> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender but still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add [list] to the start of the subject line.
> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.
> 
> Ralph
> 
> 
> 
>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Some things:
>> 
>> 1. Archives won't be merged.
>> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
>> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically subscribed to the combined list.
>> 
>> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform senders to use the new list?
>> 
>> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651>
>> 
>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>> Yes,
>> 
>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>> 
>> Ralph
>> 
>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>>> 
>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> Total agreement.
>>> 
>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that affect all the sub projects.
>>> 
>>> Ralph
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>>> 
>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive conversations about this would be great.
>>>> 
>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>> wrote:
>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.
>>>> 
>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>> 
>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that about two weeks ago
>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before that a month ago
>>>> 
>>>> Cheers
>>>> 
>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ralph
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is for).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> Mikael Ståldal
>>>> Senior software developer 
>>>> 
>>>> Magine TV
>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>    
>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com  <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>> 
>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, 
>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email.   
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> 

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

1. That seems fine to me.
2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender but still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add [list] to the start of the subject line.
3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.

Ralph



> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Some things:
> 
> 1. Archives won't be merged.
> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically subscribed to the combined list.
> 
> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform senders to use the new list?
> 
> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651>
> 
> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
> Yes,
> 
> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
> 
> Ralph
> 
>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>> 
>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Total agreement.
>> 
>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that affect all the sub projects.
>> 
>> Ralph
>> 
>> 
>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>> 
>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive conversations about this would be great.
>>> 
>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>> wrote:
>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>> 
>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that about two weeks ago
>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before that a month ago
>>> 
>>> Cheers
>>> 
>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.
>>>> 
>>>> Ralph
>>>> 
>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is for).
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>> 
>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ralph
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Mikael Ståldal
>>> Senior software developer 
>>> 
>>> Magine TV
>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>    
>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com  <http://www.magine.com/>
>>> 
>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, 
>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email.   
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

1. That seems fine to me.
2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender but still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add [list] to the start of the subject line.
3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.

Ralph



> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Some things:
> 
> 1. Archives won't be merged.
> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically subscribed to the combined list.
> 
> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform senders to use the new list?
> 
> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651>
> 
> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
> Yes,
> 
> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
> 
> Ralph
> 
>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>> 
>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Total agreement.
>> 
>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that affect all the sub projects.
>> 
>> Ralph
>> 
>> 
>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>> 
>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive conversations about this would be great.
>>> 
>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>> wrote:
>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>> 
>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that about two weeks ago
>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before that a month ago
>>> 
>>> Cheers
>>> 
>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.
>>>> 
>>>> Ralph
>>>> 
>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is for).
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>> 
>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ralph
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Mikael Ståldal
>>> Senior software developer 
>>> 
>>> Magine TV
>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>    
>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com  <http://www.magine.com/>
>>> 
>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, 
>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email.   
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

1. That seems fine to me.
2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender but still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add [list] to the start of the subject line.
3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.

Ralph



> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Some things:
> 
> 1. Archives won't be merged.
> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically subscribed to the combined list.
> 
> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform senders to use the new list?
> 
> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651>
> 
> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
> Yes,
> 
> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
> 
> Ralph
> 
>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>> 
>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Total agreement.
>> 
>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that affect all the sub projects.
>> 
>> Ralph
>> 
>> 
>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>> 
>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive conversations about this would be great.
>>> 
>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>> wrote:
>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>> 
>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that about two weeks ago
>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before that a month ago
>>> 
>>> Cheers
>>> 
>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.
>>>> 
>>>> Ralph
>>>> 
>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is for).
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>> 
>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ralph
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Mikael Ståldal
>>> Senior software developer 
>>> 
>>> Magine TV
>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>    
>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com  <http://www.magine.com/>
>>> 
>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, 
>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email.   
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

1. That seems fine to me.
2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender but still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add [list] to the start of the subject line.
3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.

Ralph



> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Some things:
> 
> 1. Archives won't be merged.
> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically subscribed to the combined list.
> 
> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform senders to use the new list?
> 
> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651 <https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651>
> 
> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
> Yes,
> 
> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
> 
> Ralph
> 
>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>> 
>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Total agreement.
>> 
>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that affect all the sub projects.
>> 
>> Ralph
>> 
>> 
>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>> 
>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive conversations about this would be great.
>>> 
>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>> wrote:
>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>> 
>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that about two weeks ago
>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before that a month ago
>>> 
>>> Cheers
>>> 
>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.
>>>> 
>>>> Ralph
>>>> 
>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is for).
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>> 
>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ralph
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Mikael Ståldal
>>> Senior software developer 
>>> 
>>> Magine TV
>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>    
>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com  <http://www.magine.com/>
>>> 
>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, 
>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email.   
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

Some things:

1. Archives won't be merged.
2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email addresses
respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over to dev@,
though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically subscribed
to the combined list.

So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform senders to
use the new list?

On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.
> org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651
>
> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>
>> Yes,
>>
>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and
>> discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the
>> user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>>
>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Total agreement.
>>>
>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses
>>>> dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that
>>>> affect all the sub projects.
>>>>
>>>> Ralph
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects.
>>>> Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for
>>>> his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>>>
>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++)
>>>> aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and
>>>> plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive
>>>> conversations about this would be great.
>>>>
>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mi...@magine.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the
>>>>> languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the
>>>>> subprojects.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects
>>>>>> to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very
>>>>>> similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging
>>>>>> specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in
>>>>>> the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all
>>>>>> subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the
>>>>>> dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not
>>>>>> apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low
>>>>>> traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few
>>>>>> messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that
>>>>>> about two weeks ago
>>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic
>>>>>> before that a month ago
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might
>>>>>> be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just
>>>>>> release announcements.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't
>>>>>> cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge
>>>>>> the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to
>>>>>> subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know
>>>>>> what that list is for).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are
>>>>>>> “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists
>>>>>>> separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need
>>>>>>> to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so
>>>>>>> that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize
>>>>>>> the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to
>>>>>>> half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing
>>>>>>> lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>>>>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@
>>>>>>> -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases
>>>>>>> for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To
>>>>>>> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should
>>>>>>> help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding,
>>>>>>> no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be
>>>>>>> open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> [image: MagineTV]
>>>>>
>>>>> *Mikael Ståldal*
>>>>> Senior software developer
>>>>>
>>>>> *Magine TV*
>>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com
>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com
>>>>> <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>>
>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this
>>>>> message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may
>>>>> not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case,
>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply
>>>>> email.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>



-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

Some things:

1. Archives won't be merged.
2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email addresses
respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over to dev@,
though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically subscribed
to the combined list.

So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform senders to
use the new list?

On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.
> org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651
>
> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>
>> Yes,
>>
>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and
>> discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the
>> user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>>
>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Total agreement.
>>>
>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses
>>>> dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that
>>>> affect all the sub projects.
>>>>
>>>> Ralph
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects.
>>>> Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for
>>>> his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>>>
>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++)
>>>> aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and
>>>> plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive
>>>> conversations about this would be great.
>>>>
>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mi...@magine.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the
>>>>> languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the
>>>>> subprojects.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects
>>>>>> to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very
>>>>>> similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging
>>>>>> specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in
>>>>>> the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all
>>>>>> subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the
>>>>>> dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not
>>>>>> apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low
>>>>>> traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few
>>>>>> messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that
>>>>>> about two weeks ago
>>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic
>>>>>> before that a month ago
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might
>>>>>> be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just
>>>>>> release announcements.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't
>>>>>> cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge
>>>>>> the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to
>>>>>> subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know
>>>>>> what that list is for).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are
>>>>>>> “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists
>>>>>>> separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need
>>>>>>> to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so
>>>>>>> that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize
>>>>>>> the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to
>>>>>>> half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing
>>>>>>> lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>>>>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@
>>>>>>> -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases
>>>>>>> for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To
>>>>>>> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should
>>>>>>> help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding,
>>>>>>> no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be
>>>>>>> open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> [image: MagineTV]
>>>>>
>>>>> *Mikael Ståldal*
>>>>> Senior software developer
>>>>>
>>>>> *Magine TV*
>>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com
>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com
>>>>> <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>>
>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this
>>>>> message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may
>>>>> not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case,
>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply
>>>>> email.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>



-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

Some things:

1. Archives won't be merged.
2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email addresses
respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over to dev@,
though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically subscribed
to the combined list.

So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform senders to
use the new list?

On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.
> org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651
>
> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>
>> Yes,
>>
>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and
>> discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the
>> user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>>
>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Total agreement.
>>>
>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses
>>>> dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that
>>>> affect all the sub projects.
>>>>
>>>> Ralph
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects.
>>>> Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for
>>>> his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>>>
>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++)
>>>> aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and
>>>> plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive
>>>> conversations about this would be great.
>>>>
>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mi...@magine.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the
>>>>> languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the
>>>>> subprojects.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects
>>>>>> to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very
>>>>>> similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging
>>>>>> specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in
>>>>>> the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all
>>>>>> subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the
>>>>>> dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not
>>>>>> apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low
>>>>>> traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few
>>>>>> messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that
>>>>>> about two weeks ago
>>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic
>>>>>> before that a month ago
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might
>>>>>> be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just
>>>>>> release announcements.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't
>>>>>> cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge
>>>>>> the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to
>>>>>> subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know
>>>>>> what that list is for).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are
>>>>>>> “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists
>>>>>>> separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need
>>>>>>> to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so
>>>>>>> that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize
>>>>>>> the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to
>>>>>>> half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing
>>>>>>> lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>>>>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@
>>>>>>> -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases
>>>>>>> for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To
>>>>>>> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should
>>>>>>> help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding,
>>>>>>> no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be
>>>>>>> open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> [image: MagineTV]
>>>>>
>>>>> *Mikael Ståldal*
>>>>> Senior software developer
>>>>>
>>>>> *Magine TV*
>>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com
>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com
>>>>> <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>>
>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this
>>>>> message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may
>>>>> not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case,
>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply
>>>>> email.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>



-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

Some things:

1. Archives won't be merged.
2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email addresses
respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over to dev@,
though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically subscribed
to the combined list.

So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform senders to
use the new list?

On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.
> org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651
>
> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>
>> Yes,
>>
>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and
>> discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the
>> user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>>
>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Total agreement.
>>>
>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses
>>>> dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that
>>>> affect all the sub projects.
>>>>
>>>> Ralph
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects.
>>>> Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for
>>>> his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>>>
>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++)
>>>> aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and
>>>> plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive
>>>> conversations about this would be great.
>>>>
>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mi...@magine.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the
>>>>> languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the
>>>>> subprojects.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects
>>>>>> to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very
>>>>>> similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging
>>>>>> specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in
>>>>>> the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all
>>>>>> subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the
>>>>>> dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not
>>>>>> apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low
>>>>>> traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few
>>>>>> messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that
>>>>>> about two weeks ago
>>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic
>>>>>> before that a month ago
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might
>>>>>> be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just
>>>>>> release announcements.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't
>>>>>> cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge
>>>>>> the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to
>>>>>> subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know
>>>>>> what that list is for).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are
>>>>>>> “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists
>>>>>>> separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need
>>>>>>> to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so
>>>>>>> that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize
>>>>>>> the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to
>>>>>>> half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing
>>>>>>> lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>>>>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@
>>>>>>> -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases
>>>>>>> for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To
>>>>>>> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should
>>>>>>> help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding,
>>>>>>> no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be
>>>>>>> open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> [image: MagineTV]
>>>>>
>>>>> *Mikael Ståldal*
>>>>> Senior software developer
>>>>>
>>>>> *Magine TV*
>>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com
>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com
>>>>> <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>>
>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this
>>>>> message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may
>>>>> not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case,
>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply
>>>>> email.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>



-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

Created a request, not sure if it's public:
https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651

On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> Yes,
>
> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and
> discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the
> user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>
> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Total agreement.
>>
>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses
>>> dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that
>>> affect all the sub projects.
>>>
>>> Ralph
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary
>>> mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his
>>> use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>>
>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++)
>>> aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and
>>> plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive
>>> conversations about this would be great.
>>>
>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mi...@magine.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the
>>>> languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the
>>>> subprojects.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects
>>>>> to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very
>>>>> similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging
>>>>> specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in
>>>>> the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all
>>>>> subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the
>>>>> dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not
>>>>> apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low
>>>>> traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few
>>>>> messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>>
>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that
>>>>> about two weeks ago
>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before
>>>>> that a month ago
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be
>>>>> of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just
>>>>> release announcements.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't
>>>>> cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge
>>>>> the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to
>>>>> subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know
>>>>> what that list is for).
>>>>>
>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are
>>>>>> “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists
>>>>>> separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need
>>>>>> to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so
>>>>>> that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize
>>>>>> the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>
>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to
>>>>>> half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing
>>>>>> lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>>>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
>>>>>>  user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases
>>>>>> for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To
>>>>>> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help
>>>>>> in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding,
>>>>>> no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be
>>>>>> open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> [image: MagineTV]
>>>>
>>>> *Mikael Ståldal*
>>>> Senior software developer
>>>>
>>>> *Magine TV*
>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com
>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com
>>>> <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>
>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this
>>>> message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may
>>>> not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case,
>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply
>>>> email.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>
>
>


-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

Created a request, not sure if it's public:
https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651

On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> Yes,
>
> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and
> discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the
> user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>
> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Total agreement.
>>
>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses
>>> dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that
>>> affect all the sub projects.
>>>
>>> Ralph
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary
>>> mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his
>>> use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>>
>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++)
>>> aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and
>>> plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive
>>> conversations about this would be great.
>>>
>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mi...@magine.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the
>>>> languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the
>>>> subprojects.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects
>>>>> to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very
>>>>> similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging
>>>>> specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in
>>>>> the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all
>>>>> subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the
>>>>> dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not
>>>>> apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low
>>>>> traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few
>>>>> messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>>
>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that
>>>>> about two weeks ago
>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before
>>>>> that a month ago
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be
>>>>> of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just
>>>>> release announcements.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't
>>>>> cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge
>>>>> the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to
>>>>> subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know
>>>>> what that list is for).
>>>>>
>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are
>>>>>> “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists
>>>>>> separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need
>>>>>> to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so
>>>>>> that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize
>>>>>> the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>
>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to
>>>>>> half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing
>>>>>> lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>>>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
>>>>>>  user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases
>>>>>> for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To
>>>>>> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help
>>>>>> in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding,
>>>>>> no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be
>>>>>> open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> [image: MagineTV]
>>>>
>>>> *Mikael Ståldal*
>>>> Senior software developer
>>>>
>>>> *Magine TV*
>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com
>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com
>>>> <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>
>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this
>>>> message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may
>>>> not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case,
>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply
>>>> email.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>
>
>


-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

Created a request, not sure if it's public:
https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651

On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> Yes,
>
> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and
> discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the
> user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>
> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Total agreement.
>>
>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses
>>> dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that
>>> affect all the sub projects.
>>>
>>> Ralph
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary
>>> mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his
>>> use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>>
>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++)
>>> aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and
>>> plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive
>>> conversations about this would be great.
>>>
>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mi...@magine.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the
>>>> languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the
>>>> subprojects.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects
>>>>> to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very
>>>>> similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging
>>>>> specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in
>>>>> the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all
>>>>> subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the
>>>>> dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not
>>>>> apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low
>>>>> traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few
>>>>> messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>>
>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that
>>>>> about two weeks ago
>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before
>>>>> that a month ago
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be
>>>>> of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just
>>>>> release announcements.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't
>>>>> cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge
>>>>> the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to
>>>>> subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know
>>>>> what that list is for).
>>>>>
>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are
>>>>>> “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists
>>>>>> separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need
>>>>>> to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so
>>>>>> that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize
>>>>>> the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>
>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to
>>>>>> half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing
>>>>>> lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>>>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
>>>>>>  user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases
>>>>>> for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To
>>>>>> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help
>>>>>> in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding,
>>>>>> no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be
>>>>>> open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> [image: MagineTV]
>>>>
>>>> *Mikael Ståldal*
>>>> Senior software developer
>>>>
>>>> *Magine TV*
>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com
>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com
>>>> <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>
>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this
>>>> message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may
>>>> not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case,
>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply
>>>> email.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>
>
>


-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

Created a request, not sure if it's public:
https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651

On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> Yes,
>
> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and
> discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the
> user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>
> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Total agreement.
>>
>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses
>>> dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that
>>> affect all the sub projects.
>>>
>>> Ralph
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary
>>> mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his
>>> use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>>
>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++)
>>> aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and
>>> plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive
>>> conversations about this would be great.
>>>
>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mi...@magine.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the
>>>> languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the
>>>> subprojects.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects
>>>>> to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very
>>>>> similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging
>>>>> specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in
>>>>> the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all
>>>>> subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the
>>>>> dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not
>>>>> apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low
>>>>> traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few
>>>>> messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>>
>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that
>>>>> about two weeks ago
>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before
>>>>> that a month ago
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be
>>>>> of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just
>>>>> release announcements.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't
>>>>> cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge
>>>>> the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to
>>>>> subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know
>>>>> what that list is for).
>>>>>
>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are
>>>>>> “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists
>>>>>> separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need
>>>>>> to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so
>>>>>> that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize
>>>>>> the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>
>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to
>>>>>> half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing
>>>>>> lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>>>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
>>>>>>  user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases
>>>>>> for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To
>>>>>> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help
>>>>>> in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding,
>>>>>> no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be
>>>>>> open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> [image: MagineTV]
>>>>
>>>> *Mikael Ståldal*
>>>> Senior software developer
>>>>
>>>> *Magine TV*
>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com
>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com
>>>> <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>
>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this
>>>> message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may
>>>> not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case,
>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply
>>>> email.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>
>
>


-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

Yes,

If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.

Ralph

> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
> 
> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Total agreement.
> 
> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that affect all the sub projects.
> 
> Ralph
> 
> 
>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>> 
>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive conversations about this would be great.
>> 
>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>> wrote:
>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.
>> 
>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>> 
>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that about two weeks ago
>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before that a month ago
>> 
>> Cheers
>> 
>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.
>>> 
>>> Ralph
>>> 
>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is for).
>>>> 
>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>> 
>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>> 
>>>> Ralph
>>>> 
>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>> 
>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>> 
>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>> 
>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>> 
>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>>  
>> 
>> Mikael Ståldal
>> Senior software developer 
>> 
>> Magine TV
>> mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>    
>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com  <http://www.magine.com/>
>> 
>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, 
>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email.   
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

Yes,

If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.

Ralph

> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
> 
> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Total agreement.
> 
> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that affect all the sub projects.
> 
> Ralph
> 
> 
>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>> 
>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive conversations about this would be great.
>> 
>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>> wrote:
>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.
>> 
>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>> 
>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that about two weeks ago
>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before that a month ago
>> 
>> Cheers
>> 
>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.
>>> 
>>> Ralph
>>> 
>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is for).
>>>> 
>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>> 
>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>> 
>>>> Ralph
>>>> 
>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>> 
>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>> 
>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>> 
>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>> 
>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>>  
>> 
>> Mikael Ståldal
>> Senior software developer 
>> 
>> Magine TV
>> mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>    
>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com  <http://www.magine.com/>
>> 
>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, 
>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email.   
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

Yes,

If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.

Ralph

> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
> 
> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Total agreement.
> 
> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that affect all the sub projects.
> 
> Ralph
> 
> 
>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>> 
>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive conversations about this would be great.
>> 
>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>> wrote:
>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.
>> 
>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>> 
>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that about two weeks ago
>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before that a month ago
>> 
>> Cheers
>> 
>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.
>>> 
>>> Ralph
>>> 
>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is for).
>>>> 
>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>> 
>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>> 
>>>> Ralph
>>>> 
>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>> 
>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>> 
>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>> 
>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>> 
>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>>  
>> 
>> Mikael Ståldal
>> Senior software developer 
>> 
>> Magine TV
>> mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>    
>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com  <http://www.magine.com/>
>> 
>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, 
>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email.   
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

Yes,

If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.

Ralph

> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
> 
> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Total agreement.
> 
> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that affect all the sub projects.
> 
> Ralph
> 
> 
>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>> 
>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive conversations about this would be great.
>> 
>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>> wrote:
>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.
>> 
>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>> 
>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that about two weeks ago
>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before that a month ago
>> 
>> Cheers
>> 
>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.
>>> 
>>> Ralph
>>> 
>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is for).
>>>> 
>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>> 
>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>> 
>>>> Ralph
>>>> 
>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>> 
>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>> 
>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>> 
>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>> 
>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>>  
>> 
>> Mikael Ståldal
>> Senior software developer 
>> 
>> Magine TV
>> mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>    
>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com  <http://www.magine.com/>
>> 
>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, 
>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email.   
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and
discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the
user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?

On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Total agreement.
>
> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ra...@dslextreme.com>
> wrote:
>
>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses
>> dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that
>> affect all the sub projects.
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>>
>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary
>> mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his
>> use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>
>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++)
>> aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and
>> plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive
>> conversations about this would be great.
>>
>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mi...@magine.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages
>>> we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> w
>>> rote:
>>>
>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects
>>>> to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very
>>>> similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging
>>>> specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in
>>>> the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all
>>>> subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the
>>>> dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not
>>>> apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low
>>>> traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few
>>>> messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>
>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that
>>>> about two weeks ago
>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before
>>>> that a month ago
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>
>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be
>>>> of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just
>>>> release announcements.
>>>>
>>>> Ralph
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't
>>>> cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge
>>>> the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to
>>>> subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know
>>>> what that list is for).
>>>>
>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are
>>>>> “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>
>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists
>>>>> separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need
>>>>> to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so
>>>>> that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize
>>>>> the current state of the vote:
>>>>>
>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>
>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>
>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>
>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>
>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>
>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to
>>>>> half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing
>>>>> lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>
>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
>>>>> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>
>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>
>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for
>>>>> the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To
>>>>> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>
>>>>> [java]
>>>>> [net]
>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>> [php]
>>>>>
>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help
>>>>> in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>
>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>
>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>
>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no
>>>>> -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open
>>>>> for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> [image: MagineTV]
>>>
>>> *Mikael Ståldal*
>>> Senior software developer
>>>
>>> *Magine TV*
>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com
>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com
>>> <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>
>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this
>>> message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may
>>> not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case,
>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply
>>> email.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>


-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and
discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the
user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?

On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Total agreement.
>
> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ra...@dslextreme.com>
> wrote:
>
>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses
>> dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that
>> affect all the sub projects.
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>>
>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary
>> mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his
>> use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>
>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++)
>> aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and
>> plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive
>> conversations about this would be great.
>>
>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mi...@magine.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages
>>> we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> w
>>> rote:
>>>
>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects
>>>> to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very
>>>> similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging
>>>> specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in
>>>> the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all
>>>> subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the
>>>> dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not
>>>> apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low
>>>> traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few
>>>> messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>
>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that
>>>> about two weeks ago
>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before
>>>> that a month ago
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>
>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be
>>>> of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just
>>>> release announcements.
>>>>
>>>> Ralph
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't
>>>> cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge
>>>> the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to
>>>> subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know
>>>> what that list is for).
>>>>
>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are
>>>>> “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>
>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists
>>>>> separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need
>>>>> to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so
>>>>> that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize
>>>>> the current state of the vote:
>>>>>
>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>
>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>
>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>
>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>
>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>
>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to
>>>>> half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing
>>>>> lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>
>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
>>>>> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>
>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>
>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for
>>>>> the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To
>>>>> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>
>>>>> [java]
>>>>> [net]
>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>> [php]
>>>>>
>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help
>>>>> in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>
>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>
>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>
>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no
>>>>> -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open
>>>>> for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> [image: MagineTV]
>>>
>>> *Mikael Ståldal*
>>> Senior software developer
>>>
>>> *Magine TV*
>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com
>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com
>>> <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>
>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this
>>> message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may
>>> not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case,
>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply
>>> email.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>


-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and
discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the
user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?

On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Total agreement.
>
> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ra...@dslextreme.com>
> wrote:
>
>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses
>> dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that
>> affect all the sub projects.
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>>
>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary
>> mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his
>> use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>
>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++)
>> aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and
>> plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive
>> conversations about this would be great.
>>
>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mi...@magine.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages
>>> we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> w
>>> rote:
>>>
>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects
>>>> to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very
>>>> similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging
>>>> specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in
>>>> the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all
>>>> subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the
>>>> dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not
>>>> apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low
>>>> traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few
>>>> messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>
>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that
>>>> about two weeks ago
>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before
>>>> that a month ago
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>
>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be
>>>> of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just
>>>> release announcements.
>>>>
>>>> Ralph
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't
>>>> cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge
>>>> the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to
>>>> subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know
>>>> what that list is for).
>>>>
>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are
>>>>> “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>
>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists
>>>>> separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need
>>>>> to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so
>>>>> that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize
>>>>> the current state of the vote:
>>>>>
>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>
>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>
>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>
>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>
>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>
>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to
>>>>> half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing
>>>>> lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>
>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
>>>>> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>
>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>
>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for
>>>>> the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To
>>>>> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>
>>>>> [java]
>>>>> [net]
>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>> [php]
>>>>>
>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help
>>>>> in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>
>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>
>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>
>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no
>>>>> -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open
>>>>> for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> [image: MagineTV]
>>>
>>> *Mikael Ståldal*
>>> Senior software developer
>>>
>>> *Magine TV*
>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com
>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com
>>> <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>
>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this
>>> message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may
>>> not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case,
>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply
>>> email.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>


-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and
discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the
user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?

On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Total agreement.
>
> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ra...@dslextreme.com>
> wrote:
>
>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses
>> dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that
>> affect all the sub projects.
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>>
>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary
>> mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his
>> use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>
>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++)
>> aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and
>> plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive
>> conversations about this would be great.
>>
>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mi...@magine.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages
>>> we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> w
>>> rote:
>>>
>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects
>>>> to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very
>>>> similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging
>>>> specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in
>>>> the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all
>>>> subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the
>>>> dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not
>>>> apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low
>>>> traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few
>>>> messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>
>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that
>>>> about two weeks ago
>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before
>>>> that a month ago
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>
>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be
>>>> of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just
>>>> release announcements.
>>>>
>>>> Ralph
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't
>>>> cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge
>>>> the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to
>>>> subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know
>>>> what that list is for).
>>>>
>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are
>>>>> “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>
>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists
>>>>> separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need
>>>>> to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so
>>>>> that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize
>>>>> the current state of the vote:
>>>>>
>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>
>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>
>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>
>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>
>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>
>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to
>>>>> half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing
>>>>> lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>
>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
>>>>> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>
>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>
>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for
>>>>> the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To
>>>>> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>
>>>>> [java]
>>>>> [net]
>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>> [php]
>>>>>
>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help
>>>>> in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>
>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>
>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>
>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no
>>>>> -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open
>>>>> for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> [image: MagineTV]
>>>
>>> *Mikael Ståldal*
>>> Senior software developer
>>>
>>> *Magine TV*
>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com
>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com
>>> <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>
>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this
>>> message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may
>>> not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case,
>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply
>>> email.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>


-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>]

Total agreement.

On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses dropped
> the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that affect
> all the sub projects.
>
> Ralph
>
>
> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary
> mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his
> use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>
> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++)
> aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and
> plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive
> conversations about this would be great.
>
> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mi...@magine.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages
>> we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> w
>> rote:
>>
>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to
>>> become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very
>>> similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging
>>> specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in
>>> the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all
>>> subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the
>>> dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not
>>> apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low
>>> traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few
>>> messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>
>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that
>>> about two weeks ago
>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before
>>> that a month ago
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>
>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be
>>> of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just
>>> release announcements.
>>>
>>> Ralph
>>>
>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't
>>> cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge
>>> the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to
>>> subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what
>>> that list is for).
>>>
>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are
>>>> “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>
>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists
>>>> separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need
>>>> to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>
>>>> Ralph
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so
>>>> that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize
>>>> the current state of the vote:
>>>>
>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>
>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>
>>>> Totals so far:
>>>> +1: 5
>>>> +0: 1
>>>> -0: 2
>>>> -1: 1
>>>>
>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>
>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>
>>>> Totals so far:
>>>> +1: 3
>>>> +0: 0
>>>> -0: 2
>>>> -1: 4
>>>>
>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>
>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to
>>>> half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>
>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing
>>>> lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>
>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
>>>> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>
>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>
>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for
>>>> the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To
>>>> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>
>>>> [java]
>>>> [net]
>>>> [cxx]
>>>> [php]
>>>>
>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help
>>>> in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>
>>>> Voting:
>>>>
>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>
>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no
>>>> -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open
>>>> for at least 72 hours.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> [image: MagineTV]
>>
>> *Mikael Ståldal*
>> Senior software developer
>>
>> *Magine TV*
>> mikael.staldal@magine.com
>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com
>> <http://www.magine.com/>
>>
>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this
>> message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may
>> not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case,
>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply
>> email.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>
>
>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>]

Total agreement.

On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses dropped
> the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that affect
> all the sub projects.
>
> Ralph
>
>
> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary
> mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his
> use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>
> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++)
> aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and
> plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive
> conversations about this would be great.
>
> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mi...@magine.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages
>> we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> w
>> rote:
>>
>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to
>>> become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very
>>> similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging
>>> specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in
>>> the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all
>>> subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the
>>> dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not
>>> apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low
>>> traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few
>>> messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>
>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that
>>> about two weeks ago
>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before
>>> that a month ago
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>
>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be
>>> of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just
>>> release announcements.
>>>
>>> Ralph
>>>
>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't
>>> cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge
>>> the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to
>>> subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what
>>> that list is for).
>>>
>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are
>>>> “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>
>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists
>>>> separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need
>>>> to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>
>>>> Ralph
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so
>>>> that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize
>>>> the current state of the vote:
>>>>
>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>
>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>
>>>> Totals so far:
>>>> +1: 5
>>>> +0: 1
>>>> -0: 2
>>>> -1: 1
>>>>
>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>
>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>
>>>> Totals so far:
>>>> +1: 3
>>>> +0: 0
>>>> -0: 2
>>>> -1: 4
>>>>
>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>
>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to
>>>> half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>
>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing
>>>> lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>
>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
>>>> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>
>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>
>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for
>>>> the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To
>>>> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>
>>>> [java]
>>>> [net]
>>>> [cxx]
>>>> [php]
>>>>
>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help
>>>> in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>
>>>> Voting:
>>>>
>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>
>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no
>>>> -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open
>>>> for at least 72 hours.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> [image: MagineTV]
>>
>> *Mikael Ståldal*
>> Senior software developer
>>
>> *Magine TV*
>> mikael.staldal@magine.com
>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com
>> <http://www.magine.com/>
>>
>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this
>> message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may
>> not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case,
>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply
>> email.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>
>
>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>]

Total agreement.

On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses dropped
> the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that affect
> all the sub projects.
>
> Ralph
>
>
> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary
> mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his
> use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>
> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++)
> aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and
> plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive
> conversations about this would be great.
>
> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mi...@magine.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages
>> we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> w
>> rote:
>>
>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to
>>> become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very
>>> similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging
>>> specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in
>>> the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all
>>> subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the
>>> dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not
>>> apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low
>>> traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few
>>> messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>
>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that
>>> about two weeks ago
>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before
>>> that a month ago
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>
>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be
>>> of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just
>>> release announcements.
>>>
>>> Ralph
>>>
>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't
>>> cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge
>>> the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to
>>> subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what
>>> that list is for).
>>>
>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are
>>>> “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>
>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists
>>>> separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need
>>>> to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>
>>>> Ralph
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so
>>>> that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize
>>>> the current state of the vote:
>>>>
>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>
>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>
>>>> Totals so far:
>>>> +1: 5
>>>> +0: 1
>>>> -0: 2
>>>> -1: 1
>>>>
>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>
>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>
>>>> Totals so far:
>>>> +1: 3
>>>> +0: 0
>>>> -0: 2
>>>> -1: 4
>>>>
>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>
>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to
>>>> half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>
>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing
>>>> lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>
>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
>>>> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>
>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>
>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for
>>>> the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To
>>>> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>
>>>> [java]
>>>> [net]
>>>> [cxx]
>>>> [php]
>>>>
>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help
>>>> in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>
>>>> Voting:
>>>>
>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>
>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no
>>>> -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open
>>>> for at least 72 hours.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> [image: MagineTV]
>>
>> *Mikael Ståldal*
>> Senior software developer
>>
>> *Magine TV*
>> mikael.staldal@magine.com
>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com
>> <http://www.magine.com/>
>>
>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this
>> message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may
>> not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case,
>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply
>> email.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>
>
>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>]

Total agreement.

On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses dropped
> the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that affect
> all the sub projects.
>
> Ralph
>
>
> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary
> mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his
> use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>
> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++)
> aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and
> plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive
> conversations about this would be great.
>
> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mi...@magine.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages
>> we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> w
>> rote:
>>
>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to
>>> become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very
>>> similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging
>>> specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in
>>> the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all
>>> subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the
>>> dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not
>>> apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low
>>> traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few
>>> messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>
>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that
>>> about two weeks ago
>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before
>>> that a month ago
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>
>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be
>>> of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just
>>> release announcements.
>>>
>>> Ralph
>>>
>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't
>>> cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge
>>> the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to
>>> subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what
>>> that list is for).
>>>
>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are
>>>> “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>
>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists
>>>> separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need
>>>> to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>
>>>> Ralph
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so
>>>> that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize
>>>> the current state of the vote:
>>>>
>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>
>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>
>>>> Totals so far:
>>>> +1: 5
>>>> +0: 1
>>>> -0: 2
>>>> -1: 1
>>>>
>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>
>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>
>>>> Totals so far:
>>>> +1: 3
>>>> +0: 0
>>>> -0: 2
>>>> -1: 4
>>>>
>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>
>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to
>>>> half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>
>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing
>>>> lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>
>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
>>>> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>
>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>
>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for
>>>> the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To
>>>> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>
>>>> [java]
>>>> [net]
>>>> [cxx]
>>>> [php]
>>>>
>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help
>>>> in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>
>>>> Voting:
>>>>
>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>
>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no
>>>> -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open
>>>> for at least 72 hours.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> [image: MagineTV]
>>
>> *Mikael Ståldal*
>> Senior software developer
>>
>> *Magine TV*
>> mikael.staldal@magine.com
>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com
>> <http://www.magine.com/>
>>
>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this
>> message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may
>> not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case,
>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply
>> email.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>
>
>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that affect all the sub projects.

Ralph


> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
> 
> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive conversations about this would be great.
> 
> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>> wrote:
> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.
> 
> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
> 
> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that about two weeks ago
> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before that a month ago
> 
> Cheers
> 
> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.
>> 
>> Ralph
>> 
>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is for).
>>> 
>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>> 
>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>> 
>>> Ralph
>>> 
>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>> 
>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>> 
>>>> Totals so far:
>>>> +1: 5
>>>> +0: 1
>>>> -0: 2
>>>> -1: 1
>>>> 
>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>> 
>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>> 
>>>> Totals so far:
>>>> +1: 3
>>>> +0: 0
>>>> -0: 2
>>>> -1: 4
>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>> 
>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>> 
>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>> 
>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>> 
>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>> 
>>>>> [java]
>>>>> [net]
>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>> [php]
>>>>> 
>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Voting:
>>>>> 
>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>> 
>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
>  
> 
> Mikael Ståldal
> Senior software developer 
> 
> Magine TV
> mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>    
> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com  <http://www.magine.com/>
> 
> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, 
> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email.   
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that affect all the sub projects.

Ralph


> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
> 
> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive conversations about this would be great.
> 
> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>> wrote:
> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.
> 
> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
> 
> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that about two weeks ago
> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before that a month ago
> 
> Cheers
> 
> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.
>> 
>> Ralph
>> 
>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is for).
>>> 
>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>> 
>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>> 
>>> Ralph
>>> 
>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>> 
>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>> 
>>>> Totals so far:
>>>> +1: 5
>>>> +0: 1
>>>> -0: 2
>>>> -1: 1
>>>> 
>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>> 
>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>> 
>>>> Totals so far:
>>>> +1: 3
>>>> +0: 0
>>>> -0: 2
>>>> -1: 4
>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>> 
>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>> 
>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>> 
>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>> 
>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>> 
>>>>> [java]
>>>>> [net]
>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>> [php]
>>>>> 
>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Voting:
>>>>> 
>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>> 
>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
>  
> 
> Mikael Ståldal
> Senior software developer 
> 
> Magine TV
> mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>    
> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com  <http://www.magine.com/>
> 
> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, 
> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email.   
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that affect all the sub projects.

Ralph


> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
> 
> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive conversations about this would be great.
> 
> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>> wrote:
> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.
> 
> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
> 
> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that about two weeks ago
> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before that a month ago
> 
> Cheers
> 
> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.
>> 
>> Ralph
>> 
>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is for).
>>> 
>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>> 
>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>> 
>>> Ralph
>>> 
>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>> 
>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>> 
>>>> Totals so far:
>>>> +1: 5
>>>> +0: 1
>>>> -0: 2
>>>> -1: 1
>>>> 
>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>> 
>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>> 
>>>> Totals so far:
>>>> +1: 3
>>>> +0: 0
>>>> -0: 2
>>>> -1: 4
>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>> 
>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>> 
>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>> 
>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>> 
>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>> 
>>>>> [java]
>>>>> [net]
>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>> [php]
>>>>> 
>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Voting:
>>>>> 
>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>> 
>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
>  
> 
> Mikael Ståldal
> Senior software developer 
> 
> Magine TV
> mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>    
> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com  <http://www.magine.com/>
> 
> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, 
> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email.   
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that affect all the sub projects.

Ralph


> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
> 
> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive conversations about this would be great.
> 
> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>> wrote:
> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.
> 
> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
> 
> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that about two weeks ago
> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before that a month ago
> 
> Cheers
> 
> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.
>> 
>> Ralph
>> 
>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is for).
>>> 
>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>> 
>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>> 
>>> Ralph
>>> 
>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>> 
>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>> 
>>>> Totals so far:
>>>> +1: 5
>>>> +0: 1
>>>> -0: 2
>>>> -1: 1
>>>> 
>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>> 
>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>> 
>>>> Totals so far:
>>>> +1: 3
>>>> +0: 0
>>>> -0: 2
>>>> -1: 4
>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>> 
>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>> 
>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>> 
>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>> 
>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>> 
>>>>> [java]
>>>>> [net]
>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>> [php]
>>>>> 
>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Voting:
>>>>> 
>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>> 
>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
>  
> 
> Mikael Ståldal
> Senior software developer 
> 
> Magine TV
> mikael.staldal@magine.com <ma...@magine.com>    
> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com  <http://www.magine.com/>
> 
> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, 
> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email.   
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary
mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his
use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.

While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++)
aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and
plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive
conversations about this would be great.

On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mi...@magine.com> wrote:

> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages
> we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.
>
> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to
>> become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very
>> similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging
>> specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in
>> the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all
>> subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the
>> dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not
>> apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low
>> traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few
>> messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>
>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that
>> about two weeks ago
>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before
>> that a month ago
>>
>> Cheers
>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>
>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be of
>> general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release
>> announcements.
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause
>> any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev
>> lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe
>> to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list
>> is for).
>>
>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>>
>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are
>>> “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>
>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists
>>> separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need
>>> to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>
>>> Ralph
>>>
>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that
>>> I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the
>>> current state of the vote:
>>>
>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>
>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>
>>> Totals so far:
>>> +1: 5
>>> +0: 1
>>> -0: 2
>>> -1: 1
>>>
>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>
>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>
>>> Totals so far:
>>> +1: 3
>>> +0: 0
>>> -0: 2
>>> -1: 4
>>>
>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>
>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>
>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to
>>> half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>
>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing
>>> lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>
>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
>>> user@logging.apache.org
>>>
>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>
>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for
>>> the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To
>>> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>
>>> [java]
>>> [net]
>>> [cxx]
>>> [php]
>>>
>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in
>>> gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>
>>> Voting:
>>>
>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>
>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no
>>> -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open
>>> for at least 72 hours.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> [image: MagineTV]
>
> *Mikael Ståldal*
> Senior software developer
>
> *Magine TV*
> mikael.staldal@magine.com
> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com
>
> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this
> message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may not
> copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case,
> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply
> email.
>



-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Mikael Ståldal <mi...@magine.com>]

I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages we
support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.

On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to
> become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very
> similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging
> specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in
> the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all
> subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the
> dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not
> apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low
> traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few
> messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>
> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that about
> two weeks ago
> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before
> that a month ago
>
> Cheers
> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>
> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be of
> general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release
> announcements.
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause
> any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev
> lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe
> to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list
> is for).
>
> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>
>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are
>> “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>
>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists
>> separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need
>> to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that
>> I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the
>> current state of the vote:
>>
>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
>>
>> Matt Sicker: +1
>> Ralph Goers: +1
>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>> Remko Popma: +1
>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>
>> Totals so far:
>> +1: 5
>> +0: 1
>> -0: 2
>> -1: 1
>>
>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>
>> Matt Sicker: -1
>> Ralph Goers: +1
>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>> Remko Popma: +1
>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>
>> Totals so far:
>> +1: 3
>> +0: 0
>> -0: 2
>> -1: 4
>>
>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>
>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>
>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half
>> of them less than five minutes ago.
>>
>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing
>> lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>
>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>> dev@logging.apache.org
>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
>> user@logging.apache.org
>>
>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>
>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for
>> the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To
>> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>
>> [java]
>> [net]
>> [cxx]
>> [php]
>>
>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in
>> gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>
>> Voting:
>>
>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>
>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no
>> -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open
>> for at least 72 hours.
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>
>
>
>


-- 
[image: MagineTV]

*Mikael Ståldal*
Senior software developer

*Magine TV*
mikael.staldal@magine.com
Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com

Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this
message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
(or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may not
copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case,
you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply
email.

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>]

We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to 
become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very 
similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache 
Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification 
implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means 
all the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good 
reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same 
use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing 
lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just 
quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:

log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that 
about two weeks ago
log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before 
that a month ago

Cheers

On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be 
> of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just 
> release announcements.
>
> Ralph
>
>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com 
>> <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't 
>> cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should 
>> merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all 
>> devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't 
>> know what that list is for).
>>
>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com 
>> <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes
>>     are \u201cbinding\u201d. I don\u2019t think that changes much however.
>>
>>     From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user\u2019s
>>     lists separate isn\u2019t likely to be an issue as most of the things
>>     that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>
>>     Ralph
>>
>>>     On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com
>>>     <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists
>>>     so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying
>>>     to summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>
>>>     log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>
>>>     Matt Sicker: +1
>>>     Ralph Goers: +1
>>>     Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>     Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>     Thorsten Sch�ning: -0
>>>     Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>     Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>     Remko Popma: +1
>>>     Mikael St�ldal: +0
>>>
>>>     Totals so far:
>>>     +1: 5
>>>     +0: 1
>>>     -0: 2
>>>     -1: 1
>>>
>>>     log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>
>>>     Matt Sicker: -1
>>>     Ralph Goers: +1
>>>     Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>     Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>     Thorsten Sch�ning: -0
>>>     Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>     Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>     Remko Popma: +1
>>>     Mikael St�ldal: -1
>>>
>>>     Totals so far:
>>>     +1: 3
>>>     +0: 0
>>>     -0: 2
>>>     -1: 4
>>>     Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>
>>>     On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>     I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just
>>>>     subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>
>>>>     This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services
>>>>     mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>
>>>>     log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>>>     dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>     log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@,
>>>>     general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>     <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>
>>>>     commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>
>>>>     The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become
>>>>     aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any
>>>>     future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag
>>>>     can be added such as:
>>>>
>>>>     [java]
>>>>     [net]
>>>>     [cxx]
>>>>     [php]
>>>>
>>>>     Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it
>>>>     should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>
>>>>     Voting:
>>>>
>>>>     +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>     +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>     -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>     -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>
>>>>     This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1
>>>>     binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot.
>>>>     The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>
>>>>     -- 
>>>>     Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>]

We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to 
become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very 
similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache 
Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification 
implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means 
all the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good 
reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same 
use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing 
lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just 
quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:

log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that 
about two weeks ago
log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before 
that a month ago

Cheers

On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be 
> of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just 
> release announcements.
>
> Ralph
>
>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com 
>> <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't 
>> cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should 
>> merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all 
>> devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't 
>> know what that list is for).
>>
>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com 
>> <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes
>>     are \u201cbinding\u201d. I don\u2019t think that changes much however.
>>
>>     From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user\u2019s
>>     lists separate isn\u2019t likely to be an issue as most of the things
>>     that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>
>>     Ralph
>>
>>>     On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com
>>>     <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists
>>>     so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying
>>>     to summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>
>>>     log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>
>>>     Matt Sicker: +1
>>>     Ralph Goers: +1
>>>     Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>     Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>     Thorsten Sch�ning: -0
>>>     Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>     Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>     Remko Popma: +1
>>>     Mikael St�ldal: +0
>>>
>>>     Totals so far:
>>>     +1: 5
>>>     +0: 1
>>>     -0: 2
>>>     -1: 1
>>>
>>>     log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>
>>>     Matt Sicker: -1
>>>     Ralph Goers: +1
>>>     Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>     Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>     Thorsten Sch�ning: -0
>>>     Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>     Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>     Remko Popma: +1
>>>     Mikael St�ldal: -1
>>>
>>>     Totals so far:
>>>     +1: 3
>>>     +0: 0
>>>     -0: 2
>>>     -1: 4
>>>     Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>
>>>     On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>     I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just
>>>>     subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>
>>>>     This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services
>>>>     mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>
>>>>     log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>>>     dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>     log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@,
>>>>     general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>     <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>
>>>>     commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>
>>>>     The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become
>>>>     aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any
>>>>     future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag
>>>>     can be added such as:
>>>>
>>>>     [java]
>>>>     [net]
>>>>     [cxx]
>>>>     [php]
>>>>
>>>>     Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it
>>>>     should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>
>>>>     Voting:
>>>>
>>>>     +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>     +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>     -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>     -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>
>>>>     This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1
>>>>     binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot.
>>>>     The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>
>>>>     -- 
>>>>     Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Thorsten Schöning <ts...@am-soft.de>]

Guten Tag Ralph Goers,
am Donnerstag, 9. März 2017 um 19:24 schrieben Sie:

> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might
> be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.

And "general-dev@" is not an option because one can't "force" devs to
subscribe there? While there are more likely subscribed to "dev@"
because of their own interest in their project. Tricky, but would be
my favorite.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Thorsten Schöning

-- 
Thorsten Schöning       E-Mail: Thorsten.Schoening@AM-SoFT.de
AM-SoFT IT-Systeme      http://www.AM-SoFT.de/

Telefon...........05151-  9468- 55
Fax...............05151-  9468- 88
Mobil..............0178-8 9468- 04

AM-SoFT GmbH IT-Systeme, Brandenburger Str. 7c, 31789 Hameln
AG Hannover HRB 207 694 - Geschäftsführer: Andreas Muchow

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>]

We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to 
become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very 
similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache 
Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification 
implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means 
all the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good 
reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same 
use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing 
lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just 
quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:

log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that 
about two weeks ago
log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before 
that a month ago

Cheers

On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be 
> of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just 
> release announcements.
>
> Ralph
>
>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com 
>> <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't 
>> cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should 
>> merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all 
>> devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't 
>> know what that list is for).
>>
>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com 
>> <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes
>>     are \u201cbinding\u201d. I don\u2019t think that changes much however.
>>
>>     From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user\u2019s
>>     lists separate isn\u2019t likely to be an issue as most of the things
>>     that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>
>>     Ralph
>>
>>>     On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com
>>>     <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists
>>>     so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying
>>>     to summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>
>>>     log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>
>>>     Matt Sicker: +1
>>>     Ralph Goers: +1
>>>     Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>     Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>     Thorsten Sch�ning: -0
>>>     Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>     Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>     Remko Popma: +1
>>>     Mikael St�ldal: +0
>>>
>>>     Totals so far:
>>>     +1: 5
>>>     +0: 1
>>>     -0: 2
>>>     -1: 1
>>>
>>>     log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>
>>>     Matt Sicker: -1
>>>     Ralph Goers: +1
>>>     Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>     Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>     Thorsten Sch�ning: -0
>>>     Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>     Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>     Remko Popma: +1
>>>     Mikael St�ldal: -1
>>>
>>>     Totals so far:
>>>     +1: 3
>>>     +0: 0
>>>     -0: 2
>>>     -1: 4
>>>     Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>
>>>     On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>     I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just
>>>>     subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>
>>>>     This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services
>>>>     mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>
>>>>     log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>>>     dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>     log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@,
>>>>     general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>     <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>
>>>>     commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>
>>>>     The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become
>>>>     aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any
>>>>     future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag
>>>>     can be added such as:
>>>>
>>>>     [java]
>>>>     [net]
>>>>     [cxx]
>>>>     [php]
>>>>
>>>>     Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it
>>>>     should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>
>>>>     Voting:
>>>>
>>>>     +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>     +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>     -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>     -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>
>>>>     This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1
>>>>     binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot.
>>>>     The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>
>>>>     -- 
>>>>     Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Thorsten Schöning <ts...@am-soft.de>]

Guten Tag Ralph Goers,
am Donnerstag, 9. März 2017 um 19:24 schrieben Sie:

> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might
> be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.

And "general-dev@" is not an option because one can't "force" devs to
subscribe there? While there are more likely subscribed to "dev@"
because of their own interest in their project. Tricky, but would be
my favorite.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Thorsten Schöning

-- 
Thorsten Schöning       E-Mail: Thorsten.Schoening@AM-SoFT.de
AM-SoFT IT-Systeme      http://www.AM-SoFT.de/

Telefon...........05151-  9468- 55
Fax...............05151-  9468- 88
Mobil..............0178-8 9468- 04

AM-SoFT GmbH IT-Systeme, Brandenburger Str. 7c, 31789 Hameln
AG Hannover HRB 207 694 - Geschäftsführer: Andreas Muchow

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Thorsten Schöning <ts...@am-soft.de>]

Guten Tag Ralph Goers,
am Donnerstag, 9. März 2017 um 19:24 schrieben Sie:

> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might
> be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.

And "general-dev@" is not an option because one can't "force" devs to
subscribe there? While there are more likely subscribed to "dev@"
because of their own interest in their project. Tricky, but would be
my favorite.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Thorsten Schöning

-- 
Thorsten Schöning       E-Mail: Thorsten.Schoening@AM-SoFT.de
AM-SoFT IT-Systeme      http://www.AM-SoFT.de/

Telefon...........05151-  9468- 55
Fax...............05151-  9468- 88
Mobil..............0178-8 9468- 04

AM-SoFT GmbH IT-Systeme, Brandenburger Str. 7c, 31789 Hameln
AG Hannover HRB 207 694 - Geschäftsführer: Andreas Muchow

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>]

We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to 
become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very 
similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache 
Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification 
implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means 
all the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good 
reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same 
use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing 
lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just 
quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:

log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that 
about two weeks ago
log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before 
that a month ago

Cheers

On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be 
> of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just 
> release announcements.
>
> Ralph
>
>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com 
>> <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't 
>> cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should 
>> merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all 
>> devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't 
>> know what that list is for).
>>
>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com 
>> <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes
>>     are \u201cbinding\u201d. I don\u2019t think that changes much however.
>>
>>     From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user\u2019s
>>     lists separate isn\u2019t likely to be an issue as most of the things
>>     that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>
>>     Ralph
>>
>>>     On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com
>>>     <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists
>>>     so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying
>>>     to summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>
>>>     log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>
>>>     Matt Sicker: +1
>>>     Ralph Goers: +1
>>>     Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>     Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>     Thorsten Sch�ning: -0
>>>     Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>     Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>     Remko Popma: +1
>>>     Mikael St�ldal: +0
>>>
>>>     Totals so far:
>>>     +1: 5
>>>     +0: 1
>>>     -0: 2
>>>     -1: 1
>>>
>>>     log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>
>>>     Matt Sicker: -1
>>>     Ralph Goers: +1
>>>     Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>     Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>     Thorsten Sch�ning: -0
>>>     Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>     Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>     Remko Popma: +1
>>>     Mikael St�ldal: -1
>>>
>>>     Totals so far:
>>>     +1: 3
>>>     +0: 0
>>>     -0: 2
>>>     -1: 4
>>>     Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>
>>>     On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>     I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just
>>>>     subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>
>>>>     This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services
>>>>     mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>
>>>>     log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>>>     dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>     log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@,
>>>>     general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>     <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>
>>>>     commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>
>>>>     The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become
>>>>     aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any
>>>>     future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag
>>>>     can be added such as:
>>>>
>>>>     [java]
>>>>     [net]
>>>>     [cxx]
>>>>     [php]
>>>>
>>>>     Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it
>>>>     should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>
>>>>     Voting:
>>>>
>>>>     +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>     +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>     -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>     -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>
>>>>     This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1
>>>>     binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot.
>>>>     The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>
>>>>     -- 
>>>>     Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Thorsten Schöning <ts...@am-soft.de>]

Guten Tag Ralph Goers,
am Donnerstag, 9. März 2017 um 19:24 schrieben Sie:

> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might
> be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.

And "general-dev@" is not an option because one can't "force" devs to
subscribe there? While there are more likely subscribed to "dev@"
because of their own interest in their project. Tricky, but would be
my favorite.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Thorsten Schöning

-- 
Thorsten Schöning       E-Mail: Thorsten.Schoening@AM-SoFT.de
AM-SoFT IT-Systeme      http://www.AM-SoFT.de/

Telefon...........05151-  9468- 55
Fax...............05151-  9468- 88
Mobil..............0178-8 9468- 04

AM-SoFT GmbH IT-Systeme, Brandenburger Str. 7c, 31789 Hameln
AG Hannover HRB 207 694 - Geschäftsführer: Andreas Muchow


---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: log4j-dev-unsubscribe@logging.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: log4j-dev-help@logging.apache.org

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>]

We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to 
become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very 
similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache 
Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification 
implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means 
all the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good 
reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same 
use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing 
lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just 
quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:

log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that 
about two weeks ago
log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before 
that a month ago

Cheers

On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be 
> of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just 
> release announcements.
>
> Ralph
>
>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com 
>> <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't 
>> cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should 
>> merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all 
>> devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't 
>> know what that list is for).
>>
>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com 
>> <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes
>>     are \u201cbinding\u201d. I don\u2019t think that changes much however.
>>
>>     From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user\u2019s
>>     lists separate isn\u2019t likely to be an issue as most of the things
>>     that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>
>>     Ralph
>>
>>>     On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com
>>>     <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists
>>>     so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying
>>>     to summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>
>>>     log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>
>>>     Matt Sicker: +1
>>>     Ralph Goers: +1
>>>     Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>     Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>     Thorsten Sch�ning: -0
>>>     Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>     Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>     Remko Popma: +1
>>>     Mikael St�ldal: +0
>>>
>>>     Totals so far:
>>>     +1: 5
>>>     +0: 1
>>>     -0: 2
>>>     -1: 1
>>>
>>>     log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>
>>>     Matt Sicker: -1
>>>     Ralph Goers: +1
>>>     Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>     Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>     Thorsten Sch�ning: -0
>>>     Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>     Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>     Remko Popma: +1
>>>     Mikael St�ldal: -1
>>>
>>>     Totals so far:
>>>     +1: 3
>>>     +0: 0
>>>     -0: 2
>>>     -1: 4
>>>     Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>
>>>     On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>     I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just
>>>>     subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>
>>>>     This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services
>>>>     mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>
>>>>     log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>>>     dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>     log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@,
>>>>     general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>     <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>>>
>>>>     commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>
>>>>     The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become
>>>>     aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any
>>>>     future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag
>>>>     can be added such as:
>>>>
>>>>     [java]
>>>>     [net]
>>>>     [cxx]
>>>>     [php]
>>>>
>>>>     Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it
>>>>     should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>
>>>>     Voting:
>>>>
>>>>     +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>     +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>     -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>     -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>
>>>>     This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1
>>>>     binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot.
>>>>     The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>
>>>>     -- 
>>>>     Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Thorsten Schöning <ts...@am-soft.de>]

Guten Tag Ralph Goers,
am Donnerstag, 9. März 2017 um 19:24 schrieben Sie:

> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might
> be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.

And "general-dev@" is not an option because one can't "force" devs to
subscribe there? While there are more likely subscribed to "dev@"
because of their own interest in their project. Tricky, but would be
my favorite.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Thorsten Schöning

-- 
Thorsten Schöning       E-Mail: Thorsten.Schoening@AM-SoFT.de
AM-SoFT IT-Systeme      http://www.AM-SoFT.de/

Telefon...........05151-  9468- 55
Fax...............05151-  9468- 88
Mobil..............0178-8 9468- 04

AM-SoFT GmbH IT-Systeme, Brandenburger Str. 7c, 31789 Hameln
AG Hannover HRB 207 694 - Geschäftsführer: Andreas Muchow

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.

Ralph

> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is for).
> 
> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
> 
> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
> 
> Ralph
> 
>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:
>> 
>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>> Matt Sicker: +1
>> Ralph Goers: +1
>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>> Remko Popma: +1
>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>> 
>> Totals so far:
>> +1: 5
>> +0: 1
>> -0: 2
>> -1: 1
>> 
>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>> 
>> Matt Sicker: -1
>> Ralph Goers: +1
>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>> Remko Popma: +1
>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>> 
>> Totals so far:
>> +1: 3
>> +0: 0
>> -0: 2
>> -1: 4
>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>> 
>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>> 
>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>> 
>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>> 
>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>> 
>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>> 
>>> [java]
>>> [net]
>>> [cxx]
>>> [php]
>>> 
>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>> 
>>> Voting:
>>> 
>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>> 
>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.

Ralph

> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is for).
> 
> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
> 
> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
> 
> Ralph
> 
>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:
>> 
>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>> Matt Sicker: +1
>> Ralph Goers: +1
>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>> Remko Popma: +1
>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>> 
>> Totals so far:
>> +1: 5
>> +0: 1
>> -0: 2
>> -1: 1
>> 
>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>> 
>> Matt Sicker: -1
>> Ralph Goers: +1
>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>> Remko Popma: +1
>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>> 
>> Totals so far:
>> +1: 3
>> +0: 0
>> -0: 2
>> -1: 4
>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>> 
>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>> 
>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>> 
>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>> 
>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>> 
>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>> 
>>> [java]
>>> [net]
>>> [cxx]
>>> [php]
>>> 
>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>> 
>>> Voting:
>>> 
>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>> 
>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.

Ralph

> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is for).
> 
> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
> 
> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
> 
> Ralph
> 
>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:
>> 
>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>> Matt Sicker: +1
>> Ralph Goers: +1
>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>> Remko Popma: +1
>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>> 
>> Totals so far:
>> +1: 5
>> +0: 1
>> -0: 2
>> -1: 1
>> 
>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>> 
>> Matt Sicker: -1
>> Ralph Goers: +1
>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>> Remko Popma: +1
>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>> 
>> Totals so far:
>> +1: 3
>> +0: 0
>> -0: 2
>> -1: 4
>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>> 
>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>> 
>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>> 
>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>> 
>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>> 
>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>> 
>>> [java]
>>> [net]
>>> [cxx]
>>> [php]
>>> 
>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>> 
>>> Voting:
>>> 
>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>> 
>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.

Ralph

> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is for).
> 
> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
> 
> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
> 
> Ralph
> 
>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:
>> 
>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>> Matt Sicker: +1
>> Ralph Goers: +1
>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>> Remko Popma: +1
>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>> 
>> Totals so far:
>> +1: 5
>> +0: 1
>> -0: 2
>> -1: 1
>> 
>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>> 
>> Matt Sicker: -1
>> Ralph Goers: +1
>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>> Remko Popma: +1
>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>> 
>> Totals so far:
>> +1: 3
>> +0: 0
>> -0: 2
>> -1: 4
>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>> 
>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>> 
>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>> 
>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>> 
>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>> 
>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>> 
>>> [java]
>>> [net]
>>> [cxx]
>>> [php]
>>> 
>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>> 
>>> Voting:
>>> 
>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>> 
>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.

Ralph

> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is for).
> 
> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <ma...@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
> 
> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
> 
> Ralph
> 
>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:
>> 
>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>> Matt Sicker: +1
>> Ralph Goers: +1
>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>> Remko Popma: +1
>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>> 
>> Totals so far:
>> +1: 5
>> +0: 1
>> -0: 2
>> -1: 1
>> 
>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>> 
>> Matt Sicker: -1
>> Ralph Goers: +1
>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>> Remko Popma: +1
>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>> 
>> Totals so far:
>> +1: 3
>> +0: 0
>> -0: 2
>> -1: 4
>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>> 
>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>> 
>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>> 
>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>>> 
>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>> 
>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>> 
>>> [java]
>>> [net]
>>> [cxx]
>>> [php]
>>> 
>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>> 
>>> Voting:
>>> 
>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>> 
>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause
any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev
lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe
to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is
for).

On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are
> “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>
> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists
> separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need
> to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I
> didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the
> current state of the vote:
>
> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
>
> Matt Sicker: +1
> Ralph Goers: +1
> Stefan Bodewig: +1
> Sven Rautenverg: -1
> Thorsten Schöning: -0
> Ivan Habunek: -0
> Dominik Psenner: +1
> Remko Popma: +1
> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>
> Totals so far:
> +1: 5
> +0: 1
> -0: 2
> -1: 1
>
> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>
> Matt Sicker: -1
> Ralph Goers: +1
> Stefan Bodewig: -1
> Sven Rautenverg: -1
> Thorsten Schöning: -0
> Ivan Habunek: -0
> Dominik Psenner: +1
> Remko Popma: +1
> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>
> Totals so far:
> +1: 3
> +0: 0
> -0: 2
> -1: 4
>
> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>
> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>
> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half
> of them less than five minutes ago.
>
> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists.
> The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>
> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
> dev@logging.apache.org
> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
> user@logging.apache.org
>
> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>
> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the
> combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish
> between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>
> [java]
> [net]
> [cxx]
> [php]
>
> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in
> gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>
> Voting:
>
> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>
> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no
> -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open
> for at least 72 hours.
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>
>
>
>


-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause
any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev
lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe
to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is
for).

On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are
> “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>
> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists
> separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need
> to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I
> didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the
> current state of the vote:
>
> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
>
> Matt Sicker: +1
> Ralph Goers: +1
> Stefan Bodewig: +1
> Sven Rautenverg: -1
> Thorsten Schöning: -0
> Ivan Habunek: -0
> Dominik Psenner: +1
> Remko Popma: +1
> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>
> Totals so far:
> +1: 5
> +0: 1
> -0: 2
> -1: 1
>
> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>
> Matt Sicker: -1
> Ralph Goers: +1
> Stefan Bodewig: -1
> Sven Rautenverg: -1
> Thorsten Schöning: -0
> Ivan Habunek: -0
> Dominik Psenner: +1
> Remko Popma: +1
> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>
> Totals so far:
> +1: 3
> +0: 0
> -0: 2
> -1: 4
>
> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>
> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>
> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half
> of them less than five minutes ago.
>
> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists.
> The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>
> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
> dev@logging.apache.org
> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
> user@logging.apache.org
>
> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>
> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the
> combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish
> between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>
> [java]
> [net]
> [cxx]
> [php]
>
> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in
> gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>
> Voting:
>
> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>
> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no
> -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open
> for at least 72 hours.
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>
>
>
>


-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause
any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev
lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe
to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is
for).

On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are
> “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>
> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists
> separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need
> to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I
> didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the
> current state of the vote:
>
> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
>
> Matt Sicker: +1
> Ralph Goers: +1
> Stefan Bodewig: +1
> Sven Rautenverg: -1
> Thorsten Schöning: -0
> Ivan Habunek: -0
> Dominik Psenner: +1
> Remko Popma: +1
> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>
> Totals so far:
> +1: 5
> +0: 1
> -0: 2
> -1: 1
>
> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>
> Matt Sicker: -1
> Ralph Goers: +1
> Stefan Bodewig: -1
> Sven Rautenverg: -1
> Thorsten Schöning: -0
> Ivan Habunek: -0
> Dominik Psenner: +1
> Remko Popma: +1
> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>
> Totals so far:
> +1: 3
> +0: 0
> -0: 2
> -1: 4
>
> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>
> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>
> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half
> of them less than five minutes ago.
>
> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists.
> The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>
> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
> dev@logging.apache.org
> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
> user@logging.apache.org
>
> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>
> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the
> combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish
> between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>
> [java]
> [net]
> [cxx]
> [php]
>
> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in
> gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>
> Voting:
>
> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>
> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no
> -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open
> for at least 72 hours.
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>
>
>
>


-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause
any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev
lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe
to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is
for).

On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are
> “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>
> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists
> separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need
> to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I
> didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the
> current state of the vote:
>
> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
>
> Matt Sicker: +1
> Ralph Goers: +1
> Stefan Bodewig: +1
> Sven Rautenverg: -1
> Thorsten Schöning: -0
> Ivan Habunek: -0
> Dominik Psenner: +1
> Remko Popma: +1
> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>
> Totals so far:
> +1: 5
> +0: 1
> -0: 2
> -1: 1
>
> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>
> Matt Sicker: -1
> Ralph Goers: +1
> Stefan Bodewig: -1
> Sven Rautenverg: -1
> Thorsten Schöning: -0
> Ivan Habunek: -0
> Dominik Psenner: +1
> Remko Popma: +1
> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>
> Totals so far:
> +1: 3
> +0: 0
> -0: 2
> -1: 4
>
> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>
> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>
> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half
> of them less than five minutes ago.
>
> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists.
> The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>
> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
> dev@logging.apache.org
> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
> user@logging.apache.org
>
> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>
> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the
> combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish
> between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>
> [java]
> [net]
> [cxx]
> [php]
>
> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in
> gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>
> Voting:
>
> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>
> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no
> -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open
> for at least 72 hours.
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>
>
>
>


-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause
any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev
lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe
to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is
for).

On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are
> “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>
> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists
> separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need
> to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I
> didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the
> current state of the vote:
>
> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
>
> Matt Sicker: +1
> Ralph Goers: +1
> Stefan Bodewig: +1
> Sven Rautenverg: -1
> Thorsten Schöning: -0
> Ivan Habunek: -0
> Dominik Psenner: +1
> Remko Popma: +1
> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>
> Totals so far:
> +1: 5
> +0: 1
> -0: 2
> -1: 1
>
> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>
> Matt Sicker: -1
> Ralph Goers: +1
> Stefan Bodewig: -1
> Sven Rautenverg: -1
> Thorsten Schöning: -0
> Ivan Habunek: -0
> Dominik Psenner: +1
> Remko Popma: +1
> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>
> Totals so far:
> +1: 3
> +0: 0
> -0: 2
> -1: 4
>
> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>
> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>
> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half
> of them less than five minutes ago.
>
> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists.
> The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>
> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
> dev@logging.apache.org
> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
> user@logging.apache.org
>
> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>
> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the
> combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish
> between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>
> [java]
> [net]
> [cxx]
> [php]
>
> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in
> gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>
> Voting:
>
> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>
> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no
> -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open
> for at least 72 hours.
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>
>
>
>


-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

[Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.

From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.

Ralph

> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:
> 
> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
> Matt Sicker: +1
> Ralph Goers: +1
> Stefan Bodewig: +1
> Sven Rautenverg: -1
> Thorsten Schöning: -0
> Ivan Habunek: -0
> Dominik Psenner: +1
> Remko Popma: +1
> Mikael Ståldal: +0
> 
> Totals so far:
> +1: 5
> +0: 1
> -0: 2
> -1: 1
> 
> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
> 
> Matt Sicker: -1
> Ralph Goers: +1
> Stefan Bodewig: -1
> Sven Rautenverg: -1
> Thorsten Schöning: -0
> Ivan Habunek: -0
> Dominik Psenner: +1
> Remko Popma: +1
> Mikael Ståldal: -1
> 
> Totals so far:
> +1: 3
> +0: 0
> -0: 2
> -1: 4
> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
> 
> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>> 
>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>> 
>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>> 
>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>> 
>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>> 
>> [java]
>> [net]
>> [cxx]
>> [php]
>> 
>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>> 
>> Voting:
>> 
>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>> 
>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
>> 
>> -- 
>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> 

[Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.

From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.

Ralph

> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:
> 
> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
> Matt Sicker: +1
> Ralph Goers: +1
> Stefan Bodewig: +1
> Sven Rautenverg: -1
> Thorsten Schöning: -0
> Ivan Habunek: -0
> Dominik Psenner: +1
> Remko Popma: +1
> Mikael Ståldal: +0
> 
> Totals so far:
> +1: 5
> +0: 1
> -0: 2
> -1: 1
> 
> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
> 
> Matt Sicker: -1
> Ralph Goers: +1
> Stefan Bodewig: -1
> Sven Rautenverg: -1
> Thorsten Schöning: -0
> Ivan Habunek: -0
> Dominik Psenner: +1
> Remko Popma: +1
> Mikael Ståldal: -1
> 
> Totals so far:
> +1: 3
> +0: 0
> -0: 2
> -1: 4
> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
> 
> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>> 
>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>> 
>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>> 
>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>> 
>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>> 
>> [java]
>> [net]
>> [cxx]
>> [php]
>> 
>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>> 
>> Voting:
>> 
>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>> 
>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
>> 
>> -- 
>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> 

[Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.

From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.

Ralph

> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:
> 
> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
> Matt Sicker: +1
> Ralph Goers: +1
> Stefan Bodewig: +1
> Sven Rautenverg: -1
> Thorsten Schöning: -0
> Ivan Habunek: -0
> Dominik Psenner: +1
> Remko Popma: +1
> Mikael Ståldal: +0
> 
> Totals so far:
> +1: 5
> +0: 1
> -0: 2
> -1: 1
> 
> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
> 
> Matt Sicker: -1
> Ralph Goers: +1
> Stefan Bodewig: -1
> Sven Rautenverg: -1
> Thorsten Schöning: -0
> Ivan Habunek: -0
> Dominik Psenner: +1
> Remko Popma: +1
> Mikael Ståldal: -1
> 
> Totals so far:
> +1: 3
> +0: 0
> -0: 2
> -1: 4
> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
> 
> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>> 
>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>> 
>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>> 
>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>> 
>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>> 
>> [java]
>> [net]
>> [cxx]
>> [php]
>> 
>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>> 
>> Voting:
>> 
>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>> 
>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
>> 
>> -- 
>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> 

RE: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Harry Martyrossian <hm...@msn.com>]

+1

From: Dominik Psenner [mailto:dpsenner@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2017 1:45 AM
To: Log4J Developers List <lo...@logging.apache.org>; Logging PMC <pr...@logging.apache.org>; Logging General <ge...@logging.apache.org>; Log4Net Developers List <lo...@logging.apache.org>; log4php-dev@logging.apache.org; log4cxx-dev@logging.apache.org
Subject: Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@


The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:

log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org<ma...@logging.apache.org>

Matt Sicker: +1
Ralph Goers: +1
Stefan Bodewig: +1
Sven Rautenverg: -1
Thorsten Schöning: -0
Ivan Habunek: -0
Dominik Psenner: +1
Remko Popma: +1
Mikael Ståldal: +0

Totals so far:
+1: 5
+0: 1
-0: 2
-1: 1

log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org<ma...@logging.apache.org>



Matt Sicker: -1

Ralph Goers: +1

Stefan Bodewig: -1

Sven Rautenverg: -1

Thorsten Schöning: -0

Ivan Habunek: -0

Dominik Psenner: +1

Remko Popma: +1

Mikael Ståldal: -1



Totals so far:

+1: 3

+0: 0

-0: 2

-1: 4
Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.

This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:

log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org<ma...@logging.apache.org>
log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org<ma...@logging.apache.org>

commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.

The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:

[java]
[net]
[cxx]
[php]

Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.

Voting:

+1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
+0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
-0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
-1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!

This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.

--
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>>

[Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.

From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.

Ralph

> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:
> 
> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
> Matt Sicker: +1
> Ralph Goers: +1
> Stefan Bodewig: +1
> Sven Rautenverg: -1
> Thorsten Schöning: -0
> Ivan Habunek: -0
> Dominik Psenner: +1
> Remko Popma: +1
> Mikael Ståldal: +0
> 
> Totals so far:
> +1: 5
> +0: 1
> -0: 2
> -1: 1
> 
> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
> 
> Matt Sicker: -1
> Ralph Goers: +1
> Stefan Bodewig: -1
> Sven Rautenverg: -1
> Thorsten Schöning: -0
> Ivan Habunek: -0
> Dominik Psenner: +1
> Remko Popma: +1
> Mikael Ståldal: -1
> 
> Totals so far:
> +1: 3
> +0: 0
> -0: 2
> -1: 4
> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
> 
> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>> 
>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>> 
>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>> 
>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>> 
>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>> 
>> [java]
>> [net]
>> [cxx]
>> [php]
>> 
>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>> 
>> Voting:
>> 
>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>> 
>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
>> 
>> -- 
>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> 

[Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.

From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.

Ralph

> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:
> 
> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
> Matt Sicker: +1
> Ralph Goers: +1
> Stefan Bodewig: +1
> Sven Rautenverg: -1
> Thorsten Schöning: -0
> Ivan Habunek: -0
> Dominik Psenner: +1
> Remko Popma: +1
> Mikael Ståldal: +0
> 
> Totals so far:
> +1: 5
> +0: 1
> -0: 2
> -1: 1
> 
> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
> 
> Matt Sicker: -1
> Ralph Goers: +1
> Stefan Bodewig: -1
> Sven Rautenverg: -1
> Thorsten Schöning: -0
> Ivan Habunek: -0
> Dominik Psenner: +1
> Remko Popma: +1
> Mikael Ståldal: -1
> 
> Totals so far:
> +1: 3
> +0: 0
> -0: 2
> -1: 4
> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
> 
> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>> 
>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>> 
>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>> 
>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>> 
>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>> 
>> [java]
>> [net]
>> [cxx]
>> [php]
>> 
>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>> 
>> Voting:
>> 
>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>> 
>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
>> 
>> -- 
>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> 

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>]

The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that 
I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize 
the current state of the vote:

log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->dev@logging.apache.org

Matt Sicker: +1
Ralph Goers: +1
Stefan Bodewig: +1
Sven Rautenverg: -1
Thorsten Sch�ning: -0
Ivan Habunek: -0
Dominik Psenner: +1
Remko Popma: +1
Mikael St�ldal: +0

Totals so far:
+1: 5
+0: 1
-0: 2
-1: 1

log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->user@logging.apache.org

Matt Sicker: -1
Ralph Goers: +1
Stefan Bodewig: -1
Sven Rautenverg: -1
Thorsten Sch�ning: -0
Ivan Habunek: -0
Dominik Psenner: +1
Remko Popma: +1
Mikael St�ldal: -1

Totals so far:
+1: 3
+0: 0
-0: 2
-1: 4

Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.

On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to 
> half of them less than five minutes ago.
>
> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing 
> lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>
> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> 
> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> 
> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>
> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>
> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for 
> the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To 
> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>
> [java]
> [net]
> [cxx]
> [php]
>
> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help 
> in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>
> Voting:
>
> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>
> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no 
> -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be 
> open for at least 72 hours.
>
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Stev Leibelt <ar...@arcor.de>]

+1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!

On 03/08/2017 05:20 AM, Matt Sicker wrote:
> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to
> half of them less than five minutes ago.
> 
> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing
> lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
> 
> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
> 
> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
> 
> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for
> the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To
> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
> 
> [java]
> [net]
> [cxx]
> [php]
> 
> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in
> gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
> 
> Voting:
> 
> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
> 
> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no
> -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be
> open for at least 72 hours.
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Stefan Bodewig <bo...@apache.org>]

On 2017-03-08, Matt Sicker wrote:

> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half
> of them less than five minutes ago.

> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists.
> The proposal is to combine them as follows:

> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
> dev@logging.apache.org

+1

> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
> user@logging.apache.org

-1

I don't think the users would benefit from a shared list and would
prefer to keep them separate (this is not a veto, just a vote).

Stefan


---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: log4j-dev-unsubscribe@logging.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: log4j-dev-help@logging.apache.org

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Sven Rautenberg <sv...@rtbg.de>]

-1 to all suggested changes, because there was no reason given why the change would be needed, and what situation it would improve. 

Personally I am happy with the low volume list I am subscribed to, and would expect to get more mails irrelevant for the language I use.


Am 8. März 2017 05:20:55 MEZ schrieb Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>:
>I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to
>half
>of them less than five minutes ago.
>
>This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing
>lists.
>The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>
>log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>dev@logging.apache.org
>log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
>user@logging.apache.org
>
>commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>
>The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for
>the
>combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To
>distinguish
>between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>
>[java]
>[net]
>[cxx]
>[php]
>
>Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help
>in
>gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>
>Voting:
>
>+1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>+0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>-0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>-1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>
>This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no
>-1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be
>open
>for at least 72 hours.
>
>-- 
>Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Mit freundlichen Grüßen

Sven Rautenberg

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

This is my +1.

If this is the incorrect voting format and we need to do a 2/3 majority
instead, please veto this and let me know. This situation is not spelled
out in the bylaws.

On 7 March 2017 at 22:20, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half
> of them less than five minutes ago.
>
> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists.
> The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>
> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
> dev@logging.apache.org
> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
> user@logging.apache.org
>
> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>
> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the
> combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish
> between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>
> [java]
> [net]
> [cxx]
> [php]
>
> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in
> gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>
> Voting:
>
> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>
> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no
> -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open
> for at least 72 hours.
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>



-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Mikael Ståldal <mi...@magine.com>]

> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
dev@logging.apache.org

+0 I can see some benefits, but I think that most developers outside of the
PMC are like regular users and only care about one about the projects.

> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
user@logging.apache.org

-1 I am quite sure that most users only care about one of the projects, and
they don't want to be spammed with irrelevant messages about the others. We
(the PMC) shouldn't annoy users just to make it slightly more convenient
for ourselves.


On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 5:20 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half
> of them less than five minutes ago.
>
> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists.
> The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>
> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
> dev@logging.apache.org
> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
> user@logging.apache.org
>
> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>
> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the
> combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish
> between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>
> [java]
> [net]
> [cxx]
> [php]
>
> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in
> gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>
> Voting:
>
> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>
> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no
> -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open
> for at least 72 hours.
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>



-- 
[image: MagineTV]

*Mikael Ståldal*
Senior software developer

*Magine TV*
mikael.staldal@magine.com
Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com

Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this
message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
(or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may not
copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case,
you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply
email.

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Thorsten Schöning <ts...@am-soft.de>]

Guten Tag Apache,
am Mittwoch, 8. März 2017 um 13:38 schrieben Sie:

> The reason for doing this is a result of the last board meeting.
> The PMC had to discuss something on the private mailing list simply
> because PMC members don't subscribe to every list, nor do they want
> to, so it was not possible to have the discussion on the correct mailing list.

-0 from me.

You surely already discussed most/all pros and cons... So while I
prefer the language based organization of the lists as well, I'm
somewhat sure I can live with your suggestion if it makes life easier
for others.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Thorsten Schöning

-- 
Thorsten Schöning       E-Mail: Thorsten.Schoening@AM-SoFT.de
AM-SoFT IT-Systeme      http://www.AM-SoFT.de/

Telefon...........05151-  9468- 55
Fax...............05151-  9468- 88
Mobil..............0178-8 9468- 04

AM-SoFT GmbH IT-Systeme, Brandenburger Str. 7c, 31789 Hameln
AG Hannover HRB 207 694 - Geschäftsführer: Andreas Muchow

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

Based on the voting so far, it looks like merging user lists isn't desired.
I'm cool with that, so I'll -1 the user list merge as well. I'm still +1
for merging developer lists unless someone has a better idea. We shouldn't
have to rely on the private list for public discussions.

On 8 March 2017 at 06:38, Apache <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> The reason for doing this is a result of the last board meeting. The PMC
> had to discuss something on the private mailing list simply because PMC
> members don't subscribe to every list, nor do they want to, so it was not
> possible to have the discussion on the correct mailing list.
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 7, 2017, at 9:20 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half
> of them less than five minutes ago.
>
> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists.
> The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>
> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
> dev@logging.apache.org
> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
> user@logging.apache.org
>
> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>
> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the
> combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish
> between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>
> [java]
> [net]
> [cxx]
> [php]
>
> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in
> gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>
> Voting:
>
> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>
> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no
> -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open
> for at least 72 hours.
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>
>


-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Thorsten Schöning <ts...@am-soft.de>]

Guten Tag Apache,
am Mittwoch, 8. März 2017 um 13:38 schrieben Sie:

> The reason for doing this is a result of the last board meeting.
> The PMC had to discuss something on the private mailing list simply
> because PMC members don't subscribe to every list, nor do they want
> to, so it was not possible to have the discussion on the correct mailing list.

-0 from me.

You surely already discussed most/all pros and cons... So while I
prefer the language based organization of the lists as well, I'm
somewhat sure I can live with your suggestion if it makes life easier
for others.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Thorsten Schöning

-- 
Thorsten Schöning       E-Mail: Thorsten.Schoening@AM-SoFT.de
AM-SoFT IT-Systeme      http://www.AM-SoFT.de/

Telefon...........05151-  9468- 55
Fax...............05151-  9468- 88
Mobil..............0178-8 9468- 04

AM-SoFT GmbH IT-Systeme, Brandenburger Str. 7c, 31789 Hameln
AG Hannover HRB 207 694 - Geschäftsführer: Andreas Muchow

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Thorsten Schöning <ts...@am-soft.de>]

Guten Tag Apache,
am Mittwoch, 8. März 2017 um 13:38 schrieben Sie:

> The reason for doing this is a result of the last board meeting.
> The PMC had to discuss something on the private mailing list simply
> because PMC members don't subscribe to every list, nor do they want
> to, so it was not possible to have the discussion on the correct mailing list.

-0 from me.

You surely already discussed most/all pros and cons... So while I
prefer the language based organization of the lists as well, I'm
somewhat sure I can live with your suggestion if it makes life easier
for others.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Thorsten Schöning

-- 
Thorsten Schöning       E-Mail: Thorsten.Schoening@AM-SoFT.de
AM-SoFT IT-Systeme      http://www.AM-SoFT.de/

Telefon...........05151-  9468- 55
Fax...............05151-  9468- 88
Mobil..............0178-8 9468- 04

AM-SoFT GmbH IT-Systeme, Brandenburger Str. 7c, 31789 Hameln
AG Hannover HRB 207 694 - Geschäftsführer: Andreas Muchow

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

Based on the voting so far, it looks like merging user lists isn't desired.
I'm cool with that, so I'll -1 the user list merge as well. I'm still +1
for merging developer lists unless someone has a better idea. We shouldn't
have to rely on the private list for public discussions.

On 8 March 2017 at 06:38, Apache <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> The reason for doing this is a result of the last board meeting. The PMC
> had to discuss something on the private mailing list simply because PMC
> members don't subscribe to every list, nor do they want to, so it was not
> possible to have the discussion on the correct mailing list.
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 7, 2017, at 9:20 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half
> of them less than five minutes ago.
>
> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists.
> The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>
> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
> dev@logging.apache.org
> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
> user@logging.apache.org
>
> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>
> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the
> combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish
> between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>
> [java]
> [net]
> [cxx]
> [php]
>
> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in
> gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>
> Voting:
>
> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>
> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no
> -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open
> for at least 72 hours.
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>
>


-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Thorsten Schöning <ts...@am-soft.de>]

Guten Tag Apache,
am Mittwoch, 8. März 2017 um 13:38 schrieben Sie:

> The reason for doing this is a result of the last board meeting.
> The PMC had to discuss something on the private mailing list simply
> because PMC members don't subscribe to every list, nor do they want
> to, so it was not possible to have the discussion on the correct mailing list.

-0 from me.

You surely already discussed most/all pros and cons... So while I
prefer the language based organization of the lists as well, I'm
somewhat sure I can live with your suggestion if it makes life easier
for others.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Thorsten Schöning

-- 
Thorsten Schöning       E-Mail: Thorsten.Schoening@AM-SoFT.de
AM-SoFT IT-Systeme      http://www.AM-SoFT.de/

Telefon...........05151-  9468- 55
Fax...............05151-  9468- 88
Mobil..............0178-8 9468- 04

AM-SoFT GmbH IT-Systeme, Brandenburger Str. 7c, 31789 Hameln
AG Hannover HRB 207 694 - Geschäftsführer: Andreas Muchow

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Thorsten Schöning <ts...@am-soft.de>]

Guten Tag Apache,
am Mittwoch, 8. März 2017 um 13:38 schrieben Sie:

> The reason for doing this is a result of the last board meeting.
> The PMC had to discuss something on the private mailing list simply
> because PMC members don't subscribe to every list, nor do they want
> to, so it was not possible to have the discussion on the correct mailing list.

-0 from me.

You surely already discussed most/all pros and cons... So while I
prefer the language based organization of the lists as well, I'm
somewhat sure I can live with your suggestion if it makes life easier
for others.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Thorsten Schöning

-- 
Thorsten Schöning       E-Mail: Thorsten.Schoening@AM-SoFT.de
AM-SoFT IT-Systeme      http://www.AM-SoFT.de/

Telefon...........05151-  9468- 55
Fax...............05151-  9468- 88
Mobil..............0178-8 9468- 04

AM-SoFT GmbH IT-Systeme, Brandenburger Str. 7c, 31789 Hameln
AG Hannover HRB 207 694 - Geschäftsführer: Andreas Muchow


---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: log4j-dev-unsubscribe@logging.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: log4j-dev-help@logging.apache.org

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

Based on the voting so far, it looks like merging user lists isn't desired.
I'm cool with that, so I'll -1 the user list merge as well. I'm still +1
for merging developer lists unless someone has a better idea. We shouldn't
have to rely on the private list for public discussions.

On 8 March 2017 at 06:38, Apache <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> The reason for doing this is a result of the last board meeting. The PMC
> had to discuss something on the private mailing list simply because PMC
> members don't subscribe to every list, nor do they want to, so it was not
> possible to have the discussion on the correct mailing list.
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 7, 2017, at 9:20 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half
> of them less than five minutes ago.
>
> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists.
> The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>
> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
> dev@logging.apache.org
> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
> user@logging.apache.org
>
> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>
> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the
> combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish
> between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>
> [java]
> [net]
> [cxx]
> [php]
>
> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in
> gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>
> Voting:
>
> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>
> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no
> -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open
> for at least 72 hours.
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>
>


-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

Based on the voting so far, it looks like merging user lists isn't desired.
I'm cool with that, so I'll -1 the user list merge as well. I'm still +1
for merging developer lists unless someone has a better idea. We shouldn't
have to rely on the private list for public discussions.

On 8 March 2017 at 06:38, Apache <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> The reason for doing this is a result of the last board meeting. The PMC
> had to discuss something on the private mailing list simply because PMC
> members don't subscribe to every list, nor do they want to, so it was not
> possible to have the discussion on the correct mailing list.
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 7, 2017, at 9:20 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half
> of them less than five minutes ago.
>
> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists.
> The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>
> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
> dev@logging.apache.org
> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
> user@logging.apache.org
>
> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>
> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the
> combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish
> between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>
> [java]
> [net]
> [cxx]
> [php]
>
> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in
> gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>
> Voting:
>
> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>
> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no
> -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open
> for at least 72 hours.
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>
>


-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

Based on the voting so far, it looks like merging user lists isn't desired.
I'm cool with that, so I'll -1 the user list merge as well. I'm still +1
for merging developer lists unless someone has a better idea. We shouldn't
have to rely on the private list for public discussions.

On 8 March 2017 at 06:38, Apache <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> The reason for doing this is a result of the last board meeting. The PMC
> had to discuss something on the private mailing list simply because PMC
> members don't subscribe to every list, nor do they want to, so it was not
> possible to have the discussion on the correct mailing list.
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 7, 2017, at 9:20 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half
> of them less than five minutes ago.
>
> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists.
> The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>
> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
> dev@logging.apache.org
> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
> user@logging.apache.org
>
> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>
> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the
> combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish
> between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>
> [java]
> [net]
> [cxx]
> [php]
>
> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in
> gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>
> Voting:
>
> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>
> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no
> -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open
> for at least 72 hours.
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>
>


-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Apache <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

The reason for doing this is a result of the last board meeting. The PMC had to discuss something on the private mailing list simply because PMC members don't subscribe to every list, nor do they want to, so it was not possible to have the discussion on the correct mailing list.

Ralph

> On Mar 7, 2017, at 9:20 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
> 
> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
> 
> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
> 
> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
> 
> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
> 
> [java]
> [net]
> [cxx]
> [php]
> 
> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
> 
> Voting:
> 
> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
> 
> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>]

The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that 
I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize 
the current state of the vote:

log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->dev@logging.apache.org

Matt Sicker: +1
Ralph Goers: +1
Stefan Bodewig: +1
Sven Rautenverg: -1
Thorsten Sch�ning: -0
Ivan Habunek: -0
Dominik Psenner: +1
Remko Popma: +1
Mikael St�ldal: +0

Totals so far:
+1: 5
+0: 1
-0: 2
-1: 1

log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->user@logging.apache.org

Matt Sicker: -1
Ralph Goers: +1
Stefan Bodewig: -1
Sven Rautenverg: -1
Thorsten Sch�ning: -0
Ivan Habunek: -0
Dominik Psenner: +1
Remko Popma: +1
Mikael St�ldal: -1

Totals so far:
+1: 3
+0: 0
-0: 2
-1: 4

Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.

On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to 
> half of them less than five minutes ago.
>
> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing 
> lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>
> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> 
> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> 
> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>
> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>
> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for 
> the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To 
> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>
> [java]
> [net]
> [cxx]
> [php]
>
> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help 
> in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>
> Voting:
>
> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>
> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no 
> -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be 
> open for at least 72 hours.
>
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Sven Rautenberg <sv...@rtbg.de>]

-1 to all suggested changes, because there was no reason given why the change would be needed, and what situation it would improve. 

Personally I am happy with the low volume list I am subscribed to, and would expect to get more mails irrelevant for the language I use.


Am 8. März 2017 05:20:55 MEZ schrieb Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>:
>I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to
>half
>of them less than five minutes ago.
>
>This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing
>lists.
>The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>
>log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>dev@logging.apache.org
>log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
>user@logging.apache.org
>
>commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>
>The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for
>the
>combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To
>distinguish
>between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>
>[java]
>[net]
>[cxx]
>[php]
>
>Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help
>in
>gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>
>Voting:
>
>+1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>+0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>-0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>-1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>
>This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no
>-1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be
>open
>for at least 72 hours.
>
>-- 
>Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Mit freundlichen Grüßen

Sven Rautenberg

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Apache <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

The reason for doing this is a result of the last board meeting. The PMC had to discuss something on the private mailing list simply because PMC members don't subscribe to every list, nor do they want to, so it was not possible to have the discussion on the correct mailing list.

Ralph

> On Mar 7, 2017, at 9:20 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
> 
> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
> 
> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
> 
> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
> 
> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
> 
> [java]
> [net]
> [cxx]
> [php]
> 
> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
> 
> Voting:
> 
> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
> 
> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Stefan Bodewig <bo...@apache.org>]

On 2017-03-08, Matt Sicker wrote:

> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half
> of them less than five minutes ago.

> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists.
> The proposal is to combine them as follows:

> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
> dev@logging.apache.org

+1

> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
> user@logging.apache.org

-1

I don't think the users would benefit from a shared list and would
prefer to keep them separate (this is not a veto, just a vote).

Stefan

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

This is my +1.

If this is the incorrect voting format and we need to do a 2/3 majority
instead, please veto this and let me know. This situation is not spelled
out in the bylaws.

On 7 March 2017 at 22:20, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half
> of them less than five minutes ago.
>
> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists.
> The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>
> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
> dev@logging.apache.org
> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
> user@logging.apache.org
>
> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>
> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the
> combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish
> between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>
> [java]
> [net]
> [cxx]
> [php]
>
> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in
> gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>
> Voting:
>
> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>
> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no
> -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open
> for at least 72 hours.
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>



-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Apache <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

The reason for doing this is a result of the last board meeting. The PMC had to discuss something on the private mailing list simply because PMC members don't subscribe to every list, nor do they want to, so it was not possible to have the discussion on the correct mailing list.

Ralph

> On Mar 7, 2017, at 9:20 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
> 
> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
> 
> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
> 
> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
> 
> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
> 
> [java]
> [net]
> [cxx]
> [php]
> 
> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
> 
> Voting:
> 
> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
> 
> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

This is my +1.

If this is the incorrect voting format and we need to do a 2/3 majority
instead, please veto this and let me know. This situation is not spelled
out in the bylaws.

On 7 March 2017 at 22:20, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half
> of them less than five minutes ago.
>
> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists.
> The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>
> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
> dev@logging.apache.org
> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
> user@logging.apache.org
>
> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>
> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the
> combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish
> between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>
> [java]
> [net]
> [cxx]
> [php]
>
> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in
> gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>
> Voting:
>
> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>
> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no
> -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open
> for at least 72 hours.
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>



-- 
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>]

The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that 
I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize 
the current state of the vote:

log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->dev@logging.apache.org

Matt Sicker: +1
Ralph Goers: +1
Stefan Bodewig: +1
Sven Rautenverg: -1
Thorsten Sch�ning: -0
Ivan Habunek: -0
Dominik Psenner: +1
Remko Popma: +1
Mikael St�ldal: +0

Totals so far:
+1: 5
+0: 1
-0: 2
-1: 1

log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->user@logging.apache.org

Matt Sicker: -1
Ralph Goers: +1
Stefan Bodewig: -1
Sven Rautenverg: -1
Thorsten Sch�ning: -0
Ivan Habunek: -0
Dominik Psenner: +1
Remko Popma: +1
Mikael St�ldal: -1

Totals so far:
+1: 3
+0: 0
-0: 2
-1: 4

Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.

On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to 
> half of them less than five minutes ago.
>
> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing 
> lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>
> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> 
> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> 
> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>
> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>
> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for 
> the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To 
> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>
> [java]
> [net]
> [cxx]
> [php]
>
> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help 
> in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>
> Voting:
>
> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>
> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no 
> -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be 
> open for at least 72 hours.
>
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Apache <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

The reason for doing this is a result of the last board meeting. The PMC had to discuss something on the private mailing list simply because PMC members don't subscribe to every list, nor do they want to, so it was not possible to have the discussion on the correct mailing list.

Ralph

> On Mar 7, 2017, at 9:20 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
> 
> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
> 
> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
> 
> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
> 
> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
> 
> [java]
> [net]
> [cxx]
> [php]
> 
> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
> 
> Voting:
> 
> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
> 
> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Apache <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

The reason for doing this is a result of the last board meeting. The PMC had to discuss something on the private mailing list simply because PMC members don't subscribe to every list, nor do they want to, so it was not possible to have the discussion on the correct mailing list.

Ralph

> On Mar 7, 2017, at 9:20 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
> 
> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
> 
> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
> 
> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
> 
> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
> 
> [java]
> [net]
> [cxx]
> [php]
> 
> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
> 
> Voting:
> 
> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
> 
> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Stefan Bodewig <bo...@apache.org>]

On 2017-03-08, Matt Sicker wrote:

> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half
> of them less than five minutes ago.

> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists.
> The proposal is to combine them as follows:

> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
> dev@logging.apache.org

+1

> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
> user@logging.apache.org

-1

I don't think the users would benefit from a shared list and would
prefer to keep them separate (this is not a veto, just a vote).

Stefan

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>]

The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that 
I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize 
the current state of the vote:

log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->dev@logging.apache.org

Matt Sicker: +1
Ralph Goers: +1
Stefan Bodewig: +1
Sven Rautenverg: -1
Thorsten Sch�ning: -0
Ivan Habunek: -0
Dominik Psenner: +1
Remko Popma: +1
Mikael St�ldal: +0

Totals so far:
+1: 5
+0: 1
-0: 2
-1: 1

log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->user@logging.apache.org

Matt Sicker: -1
Ralph Goers: +1
Stefan Bodewig: -1
Sven Rautenverg: -1
Thorsten Sch�ning: -0
Ivan Habunek: -0
Dominik Psenner: +1
Remko Popma: +1
Mikael St�ldal: -1

Totals so far:
+1: 3
+0: 0
-0: 2
-1: 4

Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.

On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to 
> half of them less than five minutes ago.
>
> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing 
> lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>
> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> 
> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> 
> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>
> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>
> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for 
> the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To 
> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>
> [java]
> [net]
> [cxx]
> [php]
>
> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help 
> in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>
> Voting:
>
> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>
> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no 
> -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be 
> open for at least 72 hours.
>
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Dominik Psenner <dp...@gmail.com>]

The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that 
I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize 
the current state of the vote:

log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->dev@logging.apache.org

Matt Sicker: +1
Ralph Goers: +1
Stefan Bodewig: +1
Sven Rautenverg: -1
Thorsten Sch�ning: -0
Ivan Habunek: -0
Dominik Psenner: +1
Remko Popma: +1
Mikael St�ldal: +0

Totals so far:
+1: 5
+0: 1
-0: 2
-1: 1

log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->user@logging.apache.org

Matt Sicker: -1
Ralph Goers: +1
Stefan Bodewig: -1
Sven Rautenverg: -1
Thorsten Sch�ning: -0
Ivan Habunek: -0
Dominik Psenner: +1
Remko Popma: +1
Mikael St�ldal: -1

Totals so far:
+1: 3
+0: 0
-0: 2
-1: 4

Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.

On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to 
> half of them less than five minutes ago.
>
> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing 
> lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>
> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> 
> dev@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> 
> user@logging.apache.org <ma...@logging.apache.org>
>
> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>
> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for 
> the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To 
> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>
> [java]
> [net]
> [cxx]
> [php]
>
> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help 
> in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>
> Voting:
>
> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>
> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no 
> -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be 
> open for at least 72 hours.
>
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>