[Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>]

The problem
-----------
It seems that some tools still do not use a Catalog Entity Resolver [1]
to locate local copies of DTDs. Hence these tools break, because there
are not actual DTDs on the website. This is limiting the uptake of
the Apache Document DTDs and drawing lots of user questions.

Some background
---------------
Forrest and Cocoon both use the Catalog Entity Resolver and this works
fine in all situations (command-line, webapp). Any sensible XML tool
can utilise the xml-commons-resolver.jar, and the Catalog supplied by
Forrest. Some other tools either don't bother to use it or the user
has not bothered to configure it.

The solution
------------
Place the document-v* DTDs and supporting files on the Forrest website
and keep them up-to-date with Forrest CVS.

Add an HTML page to explain that there are better solutions and that
this is only a fall-back solution.

Some issues
-----------
1) The DTDs will still be managed in the Forrest CVS at [2].

2) The Forrest build system is complex. It would be good to automate
the publishing of DTD versions, but that may not be possible.

3) The Forrest website is built using the "stable" version of
Forrest (currently v0.5.1). So how will DTDs from the current
CVS (v0.6-dev) get into the website CVS [3]? Manual copy? See 4).

4) If some committer changes the DTDs in CVS then they will be
out-of-sync. Will committers remember to do the manual copy? See 3).

5) Extra impact on the Apache webserver. Is this a big bandwidth
consumer? See some estimates in [4].

6) What will be the URLs for the DTDs?
http://xml.apache.org/forrest/dtd/...
We presume that Forrest will not be a top-level project soon.

7) Does the Apache webserver deliver the supporting files using
the appropriate Content-Type? Is that "text/plain"? Does it matter?
We have *.dtd and *.mod and *.pen and *.ent extensions.

8) We have two separate directories in CVS. The /dtd/ and the
/entity/ directories are parallel. We can probably merge
everything into /dtd/ and change the Catalogs.

9) We will never know if the Catalog Entity Resolver gets
broken after an upgrade. Forrest will still work but will
be slower, doing downloads of the DTD and supporting files
on each document parse. We can probably add a test document
in the "forrest seed site" to detect failure.

10) Cocoon has a copy of the DTDs and stuff in its own CVS
so that it can build its own documentation via its webapp
and command-line builds. This can still continue, but needs
a better solution. Perhaps Forrest can provide later.

11) Do we need to ask infrastructure@ about this proposal
or just do it?

Next steps
----------
* Discuss this proposal on cocoon-dev and forrest-dev.
* If no new issues surface, then summarise and call a vote if needed.
* Modify Forrest build system to copy the DTDs into the website CVS.

References
----------
[1] Apache Catalog Entity Resolver
http://xml.apache.org/commons/components/resolver/

[2] DTDs in Forrest CVS
http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs/xml-forrest/src/core/context/resources/schema/

[3] Forrest website CVS
http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs/xml-site/targets/forrest/

[4] Some recent mail discussion:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-cocoon-dev&m=107042081805837

[5] Jira issue FOR-107
http://issues.cocoondev.org/jira//secure/ViewIssue.jspa?key=FOR-107

Re: mail list config for forrest-dev

[Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>]

On Jan 16, 2004, at 5:30 AM, David Crossley wrote:

> I wonder if, with our email obfuscation efforts with the Forrest
> website, we might be getting less spam now. Should we try opening
> it up? We should be encouraging cross-project discussion and not
> let spam stifle that.

Yep - you should ask apmail.

> I still don't understand why we get so much spam. Doesn't the
> mail system at Apache do spam filtering? Or do the moderation
> messages bypass that.

Many messages do get caught by spamwatch (the server-side custom 
filtering stuff on daedalus). Still, on an average week, with 
SpamAssassin already catching a lot on my IMAP box, and Mail.app doing 
its own filtering, I do receive 20-30 spam moderation messages a week. 
I'm not on dial-up though, so bandwidth isn't an issue to me.

I guess bandwidth is your real issue, not?

</Steven>
-- 
Steven Noels                            http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML            An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at            http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org                stevenn at apache.org

Re: mail list config for forrest-dev

[Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>]

On Jan 16, 2004, at 5:30 AM, David Crossley wrote:

> I wonder if, with our email obfuscation efforts with the Forrest
> website, we might be getting less spam now. Should we try opening
> it up? We should be encouraging cross-project discussion and not
> let spam stifle that.

Yep - you should ask apmail.

> I still don't understand why we get so much spam. Doesn't the
> mail system at Apache do spam filtering? Or do the moderation
> messages bypass that.

Many messages do get caught by spamwatch (the server-side custom 
filtering stuff on daedalus). Still, on an average week, with 
SpamAssassin already catching a lot on my IMAP box, and Mail.app doing 
its own filtering, I do receive 20-30 spam moderation messages a week. 
I'm not on dial-up though, so bandwidth isn't an issue to me.

I guess bandwidth is your real issue, not?

</Steven>
-- 
Steven Noels                            http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML            An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at            http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org                stevenn at apache.org

Re: mail list config for forrest-dev

[David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>]

Steven Noels wrote:
> David Crossley wrote:
> > Joerg Heinicke wrote to cocoon-dev:
> >> I'm not CCing Forrest as I'm not subscribed there and they don't
> >> moderate my mails through.
> >
> > I am a moderator and would let them through and add to the
> > allow list. However, i don't see any. Are they rather bouncing?
> >
> > I gather that forrest-dev is set to subscriber-only, but i expect
> > to get moderation messages. Inconsistent mail list configs at
> > Apache are so confusing.
> 
> Nope - we got what we wanted. Remember that we were tired once 
> moderating spam, and asked apmail to reconfigure. That's what we get 
> with a subscribers-only list.

Drat, i forgot that it was set that way.

I wonder if, with our email obfuscation efforts with the Forrest
website, we might be getting less spam now. Should we try opening
it up? We should be encouraging cross-project discussion and not
let spam stifle that.

I still don't understand why we get so much spam. Doesn't the
mail system at Apache do spam filtering? Or do the moderation
messages bypass that.

--David

Re: mail list config for forrest-dev

[David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>]

Steven Noels wrote:
> David Crossley wrote:
> > Joerg Heinicke wrote to cocoon-dev:
> >> I'm not CCing Forrest as I'm not subscribed there and they don't
> >> moderate my mails through.
> >
> > I am a moderator and would let them through and add to the
> > allow list. However, i don't see any. Are they rather bouncing?
> >
> > I gather that forrest-dev is set to subscriber-only, but i expect
> > to get moderation messages. Inconsistent mail list configs at
> > Apache are so confusing.
> 
> Nope - we got what we wanted. Remember that we were tired once 
> moderating spam, and asked apmail to reconfigure. That's what we get 
> with a subscribers-only list.

Drat, i forgot that it was set that way.

I wonder if, with our email obfuscation efforts with the Forrest
website, we might be getting less spam now. Should we try opening
it up? We should be encouraging cross-project discussion and not
let spam stifle that.

I still don't understand why we get so much spam. Doesn't the
mail system at Apache do spam filtering? Or do the moderation
messages bypass that.

--David

Re: mail list config for forrest-dev (Was: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website)

[Joerg Heinicke <jo...@gmx.de>]

On 15.01.2004 12:38, Steven Noels wrote:

>> Is it possible to get on a white list though, at least after a 
>> personal request to forrest-dev-owner@x.a.o?
> 
> 
> I've changed my moderation policies for the lists I moderate: when an 
> non-subscriber sends a legitimate mail to a list, I moderate through 
> _and_ add him to the whitelist.

Ok.

> There's still a chance then that he 
> doesn't get the reply (because he wasn't subscribed, and his message 
> (and replies) appears magically on the list, perhaps without him knowing 
> so),

He?

> but manually informing people that they _need_ to subscribe in 
> order to see the replies delivered in their mailbox became too much of a 
> burden.

I didn't mean manually informing, it's enough if I get on the whitelist 
after sending a manual request after an automatic bouncing - and this 
way it seems to go at the moment, isn't it?

I don't know what you mean exactly with replies. If I want to get the 
replies as mails I would subscribe of course. But the single threads I'm 
interested in I read on gmane or theaimsgroup.

Joerg

Re: mail list config for forrest-dev (Was: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website)

[Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>]

On Jan 15, 2004, at 12:29 PM, Joerg Heinicke wrote:

> Is it possible to get on a white list though, at least after a 
> personal request to forrest-dev-owner@x.a.o?

I've changed my moderation policies for the lists I moderate: when an 
non-subscriber sends a legitimate mail to a list, I moderate through 
_and_ add him to the whitelist. There's still a chance then that he 
doesn't get the reply (because he wasn't subscribed, and his message 
(and replies) appears magically on the list, perhaps without him 
knowing so), but manually informing people that they _need_ to 
subscribe in order to see the replies delivered in their mailbox became 
too much of a burden. Besides, some read lists through Gmane so they'll 
find the replies anyhow.

</Steven>
-- 
Steven Noels                            http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML            An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at            http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org                stevenn at apache.org

Re: mail list config for forrest-dev (Was: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website)

[Joerg Heinicke <jo...@gmx.de>]

On 15.01.2004 10:28, Steven Noels wrote:

> On Jan 15, 2004, at 2:50 AM, David Crossley wrote:
> 
>> Joerg Heinicke wrote to cocoon-dev:
>>
>>> I'm not CCing Forrest as I'm not subscribed there and they don't
>>> moderate my mails through.
>>
>>
>> I am a moderator and would let them through and add to the
>> allow list. However, i don't see any. Are they rather bouncing?
>>
>> I gather that forrest-dev is set to subscriber-only, but i expect
>> to get moderation messages. Inconsistent mail list configs at
>> Apache are so confusing.
> 
> 
> Nope - we got what we wanted. Remember that we were tired once 
> moderating spam, and asked apmail to reconfigure. That's what we get 
> with a subscribers-only list.

Is it possible to get on a white list though, at least after a personal 
request to forrest-dev-owner@x.a.o?

Joerg

Re: mail list config for forrest-dev (Was: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website)

[Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>]

On Jan 15, 2004, at 2:50 AM, David Crossley wrote:

> Joerg Heinicke wrote to cocoon-dev:
>> I'm not CCing Forrest as I'm not subscribed there and they don't
>> moderate my mails through.
>
> I am a moderator and would let them through and add to the
> allow list. However, i don't see any. Are they rather bouncing?
>
> I gather that forrest-dev is set to subscriber-only, but i expect
> to get moderation messages. Inconsistent mail list configs at
> Apache are so confusing.

Nope - we got what we wanted. Remember that we were tired once 
moderating spam, and asked apmail to reconfigure. That's what we get 
with a subscribers-only list.

</Steven>
-- 
Steven Noels                            http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML            An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at            http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org                stevenn at apache.org

Re: mail list config for forrest-dev (Was: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website)

[Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>]

On Jan 15, 2004, at 2:50 AM, David Crossley wrote:

> Joerg Heinicke wrote to cocoon-dev:
>> I'm not CCing Forrest as I'm not subscribed there and they don't
>> moderate my mails through.
>
> I am a moderator and would let them through and add to the
> allow list. However, i don't see any. Are they rather bouncing?
>
> I gather that forrest-dev is set to subscriber-only, but i expect
> to get moderation messages. Inconsistent mail list configs at
> Apache are so confusing.

Nope - we got what we wanted. Remember that we were tired once 
moderating spam, and asked apmail to reconfigure. That's what we get 
with a subscribers-only list.

</Steven>
-- 
Steven Noels                            http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML            An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at            http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org                stevenn at apache.org

Re: mail list config for forrest-dev

[David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>]

Joerg Heinicke wrote:
> David Crossley wrote:
> > 
> > I am a moderator and would let them through and add to the
> > allow list.
> 
> Ok, then let's try it :)
> 
> > However, i don't see any. Are they rather bouncing?
> 
> I didn't sent it this time as I said. But in older threads concerning 
> both Cocoon and Forrest I tried to CC Forrest list too and got mails 
> that my mail had been rejected and I should subscribe first.

Yep, your test did not get to the moderator, so it is rejecting.
And thanks for your private confirmation.

There is the trade-off between letting legitimate people post
and not flooding the moderators with spam.

Okay, we will talk about it on forrest-dev. Thanks for bringing
this up - it is important that projects can communicate.

--David

Re: mail list config for forrest-dev

[David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>]

Joerg Heinicke wrote:
> David Crossley wrote:
> > 
> > I am a moderator and would let them through and add to the
> > allow list.
> 
> Ok, then let's try it :)
> 
> > However, i don't see any. Are they rather bouncing?
> 
> I didn't sent it this time as I said. But in older threads concerning 
> both Cocoon and Forrest I tried to CC Forrest list too and got mails 
> that my mail had been rejected and I should subscribe first.

Yep, your test did not get to the moderator, so it is rejecting.
And thanks for your private confirmation.

There is the trade-off between letting legitimate people post
and not flooding the moderators with spam.

Okay, we will talk about it on forrest-dev. Thanks for bringing
this up - it is important that projects can communicate.

--David

Re: mail list config for forrest-dev (Was: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website)

[Joerg Heinicke <jo...@gmx.de>]

On 15.01.2004 02:50, David Crossley wrote:

> Joerg Heinicke wrote to cocoon-dev:
> 
>>I'm not CCing Forrest as I'm not subscribed there and they don't 
>>moderate my mails through.
> 
> I am a moderator and would let them through and add to the
> allow list.

Ok, then let's try it :)

> However, i don't see any. Are they rather bouncing?

I didn't sent it this time as I said. But in older threads concerning 
both Cocoon and Forrest I tried to CC Forrest list too and got mails 
that my mail had been rejected and I should subscribe first.

Joerg

mail list config for forrest-dev (Was: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website)

[David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>]

Joerg Heinicke wrote to cocoon-dev:
> I'm not CCing Forrest as I'm not subscribed there and they don't 
> moderate my mails through.

I am a moderator and would let them through and add to the
allow list. However, i don't see any. Are they rather bouncing?

I gather that forrest-dev is set to subscriber-only, but i expect
to get moderation messages. Inconsistent mail list configs at
Apache are so confusing.

I sent the initial Proposal to both because it concerned both.
Now i am following up to each list separately. I don't know
how to handle cross-posted discussions.

--David

mail list config for forrest-dev (Was: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website)

[David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>]

Joerg Heinicke wrote to cocoon-dev:
> I'm not CCing Forrest as I'm not subscribed there and they don't 
> moderate my mails through.

I am a moderator and would let them through and add to the
allow list. However, i don't see any. Are they rather bouncing?

I gather that forrest-dev is set to subscriber-only, but i expect
to get moderation messages. Inconsistent mail list configs at
Apache are so confusing.

I sent the initial Proposal to both because it concerned both.
Now i am following up to each list separately. I don't know
how to handle cross-posted discussions.

--David

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[Roger I Martin PhD <hy...@hypernexinc.com>]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Crossley" <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>
To: <de...@cocoon.apache.org>
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2004 2:50 AM
Subject: Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website


> Roger I Martin PhD wrote:
> > There are schema definitions at
> >
> > C:\apache\cocoon-2.1\src\blocks\databases\samples\xsp\esql.xsd for esql
> >
C:\apache\cocoon-2.1\src\documentation\xdocs\drafts\sitemap-2.1-draft.xsd
> > for *.xmap
> >
> > Are these to be organised with the DTDs of this proposal?
>
> No, there are no such plans. This proposal is only attempting
> to deal with the set of "document" DTDs.
>
> Why would those XSDs need to be on a website?
For the same purpose as DTDs?  Or moved into Cocoon so they can be utilized
by tools?  I was thinking about visualization and editing assistants.
>
> The "sitemap" XSD is "draft" and did not receive ongoing
> community support. It was followed a RELAX NG effort which
> suffered the same fate. So they remain in draft state..
>
> --David
>
>
>

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>]

Roger I Martin PhD wrote:
> There are schema definitions at
> 
> C:\apache\cocoon-2.1\src\blocks\databases\samples\xsp\esql.xsd for esql
> C:\apache\cocoon-2.1\src\documentation\xdocs\drafts\sitemap-2.1-draft.xsd
> for *.xmap
> 
> Are these to be organised with the DTDs of this proposal?

No, there are no such plans. This proposal is only attempting
to deal with the set of "document" DTDs.

Why would those XSDs need to be on a website?

The "sitemap" XSD is "draft" and did not receive ongoing
community support. It was followed a RELAX NG effort which
suffered the same fate. So they remain in draft state..

--David

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[Roger I Martin PhD <hy...@hypernexinc.com>]

There are schema definitions at

C:\apache\cocoon-2.1\src\blocks\databases\samples\xsp\esql.xsd for esql
C:\apache\cocoon-2.1\src\documentation\xdocs\drafts\sitemap-2.1-draft.xsd
for *.xmap

Are these to be organised with the DTDs of this proposal?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Stefano Mazzocchi" <st...@apache.org>
To: <fo...@xml.apache.org>
Cc: <de...@cocoon.apache.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 10:01 AM
Subject: Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website


>
> On 15 Jan 2004, at 05:05, David Crossley wrote:
>
> > Joerg Heinicke wrote:
> >> David Crossley wrote:
> >>
> >>> 3) The Forrest website is built using the "stable" version of
> >>> Forrest (currently v0.5.1). So how will DTDs from the current
> >>> CVS (v0.6-dev) get into the website CVS [3]? Manual copy? See 4).
> >>>
> >>> 4) If some committer changes the DTDs in CVS then they will be
> >>> out-of-sync. Will committers remember to do the manual copy? See 3).
> >>
> >> I don't see this problem. On the one hand there are the older files
> >> like
> >> document 0.10 or 0.11 that won't be touched, on the other hand 0.12
> >> (or
> >> is it already old too?) which is developed at the moment. You can't
> >> make
> >> incompatible changes for one version, otherwise you will break
> >> possibly
> >> thousands of documents out there. So only extensions are possible.
> >
> > Absolutely. I think that i got a bit mixed up with whatever i was
> > trying to say in item 4. We need proper version control and we
> > have a naming convention for that.
> >
> > Forrest has been careful not to introduce any incompatible changes.
> > However, i think that we need to be more careful about adding even
> > new optional stuff. Every change should be a totally new DTD version.
> >
> >> In
> >> conclusion: the update cycle must not be once per minute, but maybe
> >> once
> >> per day or only week. Now what about having a cron job running on the
> >> website server that checks out recent DTD versions? Forcing manual
> >> work
> >> that's critical and without much effort automatically doable sounds
> >> not
> >> that good.
> >
> > Good idea. Nicola Ken suggested something similar.
>
> Ok, a little more .htaccess magic:
>
> # First, proxy the content straight out of ViewCVS
> ProxyPass        /forrest/
> http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/*checkout*/xml-forrest/src/core/
> context/resources/schema/dtd/
> ProxyPassReverse /forrest/
> http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/*checkout*/xml-forrest/src/core/
> context/resources/schema/dtd/
>
> # Now, since ViewCVS is pretty slow, make sure you cache it
> CacheEnable mem /forrest/
>
> # for a day
> CacheDefaultExpire 86400
>    MCacheSize 4096
>    MCacheMaxObjectCount 100
>    MCacheMinObjectSize 1
>    MCacheMaxObjectSize 2048
>
> # and in case your client is a good web citizen, tell the proxies down
> the road
> # to avoid calling us since we guarantee the content is fresh for a day
> ExpiresActive On
> ExpiresDefault "access plus 1 day"
>
> > --
> Stefano, who has been waiting for some 18 months for somebody else to
> come up with the idea of having forrest pregenerating the .htaccess
> file to do some sort of poor-man multichannel or content negotiation,
> but has lost hope so it's time to inject notion in the system.
>
>

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>]

Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> 
> On 16 Jan 2004, at 10:06, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> 
>> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
...
> I'm implying that many people in this list wouldn't know how to setup a 
> mod_rewrite rule on top of their head, for example. And I'm implying 
> that this is hurting this project and it's time to change that since, 
> apparently, won't be changed by the httpd people as I expected it would 
> have been.

Don't get me wrong, if you are willing to explain these things, I'm 
happy to listen. Knowledge in this case is always useful. Just that 
there are already so many things to do without this, and not that many 
actually working on it, that's all.

-- 
Nicola Ken Barozzi                   nicolaken@apache.org
             - verba volant, scripta manent -
    (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>]

Dave Brondsema wrote:
> David Crossley wrote:
> > 
> > 16) It was suggested that we need a document to assist
> > with configuration of local XML Tools. Here is a start:
> > http://xml.apache.org/forrest/catalog.html
> 
> With the catalog information, I think the majority of users' problems will be
> solved.  What you are talking about seems like a lot of work for little benefit.

Most of the work is done. I just need some help with the
htaccess file and there are a couple of Issues to solve.

Unless someone comes up with a good reason not to do it,
then i will continue.

It is that small percentage of cases that will cause the
most noise. And it may actually be a big percentage for
all we know.

--David

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>]

Johan Kok wrote:
> Dave Brondsema wrote:
> > David Crossley wrote:
> >   
> > > 16) It was suggested that we need a document to assist
> > > with configuration of local XML Tools. Here is a start:
> > > http://xml.apache.org/forrest/catalog.html
> > 
> > With the catalog information, I think the majority of users' problems will be
> > solved.  What you are talking about seems like a lot of work for little benefit.  
>
> -1 on the last comment. .....

Thanks Johan. However, when you say -1 you need to supply
a reason.

--David

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[Johan Kok <jk...@messianic.dyndns.org>]

Dave Brondsema wrote:

>Quoting David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>:
>
>  
>
>>16) It was suggested that we need a document to assist
>>with configuration of local XML Tools. Here is a start:
>>http://xml.apache.org/forrest/catalog.html
>>
>>    
>>
>
>With the catalog information, I think the majority of users' problems will be
>solved.  What you are talking about seems like a lot of work for little benefit.  
>  
>
-1 on the last comment. .....

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[Dave Brondsema <da...@brondsema.net>]

Quoting David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>:

> Thanks to everyone who responded. The discussion seems
> to have gone quiet, so it is time to summarise.
> 
> I am not going to call a Vote on this, rather just do it.
> If anyone thinks otherwise then say so.
> 

> 
> 16) It was suggested that we need a document to assist
> with configuration of local XML Tools. Here is a start:
> http://xml.apache.org/forrest/catalog.html
> 

With the catalog information, I think the majority of users' problems will be
solved.  What you are talking about seems like a lot of work for little benefit.  

-- 
Dave Brondsema 
dave@brondsema.net 
http://www.brondsema.net - personal 
http://www.splike.com - programming 
http://csx.calvin.edu - student org 

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>]

Thanks to everyone who responded. The discussion seems
to have gone quiet, so it is time to summarise.

I am not going to call a Vote on this, rather just do it.
If anyone thinks otherwise then say so.

These are the original set of issues. I have added comments
based on the discussion, and added the new issues that arose.
Issues 6, 7, 13, 14 are where the action is.

> 1) The DTDs will still be managed in the Forrest CVS.

Okay.

> 2) The Forrest build system is complex. It would be good to automate
> the publishing of DTD versions, but that may not be possible.
>
> 3) The Forrest website is built using the "stable" version of
> Forrest (currently v0.5.1). So how will DTDs from the current
> CVS (v0.6-dev) get into the website CVS [3]? Manual copy? See 4).
>
> 4) If some committer changes the DTDs in CVS then they will be
> out-of-sync. Will committers remember to do the manual copy? See 3).

Issues 2, 3, and 4 are solved in one fell swoop by the use
of .htaccess and mod_rewrite magic. See Issue 13 below.

> 5) Extra impact on the Apache webserver. Is this a big bandwidth
> consumer? See some estimates in [4].

No comments, so don't worry about it.

> 6) What will be the URLs for the DTDs?
> http://xml.apache.org/forrest/dtd/...
> We presume that Forrest will not be a top-level project soon.

This is the big problem. The XML Project is talking about
moving Forrest under the wings of Cocoon.

So we should anticipate that and use cocoon URLs:
http://cocoon.apache.org/forrest/dtd/...
or even
http://cocoon.apache.org/dtd/...

See also new issues 12 and 13.

> 7) Does the Apache webserver deliver the supporting files using
> the appropriate Content-Type? Is that "text/plain"? Does it matter?
> We have *.dtd and *.mod and *.pen and *.ent extensions.

Tests proved that there is a problem with some of these
with the default webserver config. Never mind, .htaccess
to the rescue. See Issue 13 below.

Steven posted an RFC which might help us to decide.
See the discussion, there are some outstanding questions:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=forrest-dev&m=107408183417874

> 8) We have two separate directories in CVS. The /dtd/ and the
> /entity/ directories are parallel. We can probably merge
> everything into /dtd/ and change the Catalogs.

No comments. Merge them, because the entity sets are only
used by DTDs anyway.

> 9) We will never know if the Catalog Entity Resolver gets
> broken after an upgrade. Forrest will still work but will
> be slower, doing downloads of the DTD and supporting files
> on each document parse. We can probably add a test document
> in the "forrest seed site" to detect failure.

Do not use the "seed site" as a test mechanism. Add some
proper tests. Not sure yet whether JUnit or Anteater.

> 10) Cocoon has a copy of the DTDs and stuff in its own CVS
> so that it can build its own documentation via its webapp
> and command-line builds. This can still continue, but needs
> a better solution. Perhaps Forrest can provide later.

Okay.

> 11) Do we need to ask infrastructure@ about this proposal
> or just do it?

No comments, so just do it.

The new issues ...

12) With the last Forrest release, the System Identifiers were
changed to be URIs instead of local paths, e.g.
http://apache.org/forrest/dtd/...

This was unfortunate because now we need to handle the fact
that people will expect a DTD resource to be there. In the
upcoming Forrest and Cocoon release we will change all
default System Identifiers to be that adopted at Issue 6.

13) We are working on a .htaccess to rewrite the URLs to
deliver the resources via ViewCVS. This still needs some work.
See the previous message in this thread.

14) Test that it works. Yes, it does with XXE. Disable the
Forrest catalog.xcat then change the System Identifier in
one of your xdocs to point to
http://cocoon.apache.org/dtd/document-v12.dtd
Does it work with other tools?

15) It was suggested to do the same for XSD and RNG for
the Sitemap. None published yet, so address this later.

16) It was suggested that we need a document to assist
with configuration of local XML Tools. Here is a start:
http://xml.apache.org/forrest/catalog.html

17) Need to make extra effort to ensure that we adhere
to the proper naming convention for our DTDs and increment
the version numbers for every change.

--David

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>]

Thanks to everyone who responded. The discussion seems
to have gone quiet, so it is time to summarise.

I am not going to call a Vote on this, rather just do it.
If anyone thinks otherwise then say so.

These are the original set of issues. I have added comments
based on the discussion, and added the new issues that arose.
Issues 6, 7, 13, 14 are where the action is.

> 1) The DTDs will still be managed in the Forrest CVS.

Okay.

> 2) The Forrest build system is complex. It would be good to automate
> the publishing of DTD versions, but that may not be possible.
>
> 3) The Forrest website is built using the "stable" version of
> Forrest (currently v0.5.1). So how will DTDs from the current
> CVS (v0.6-dev) get into the website CVS [3]? Manual copy? See 4).
>
> 4) If some committer changes the DTDs in CVS then they will be
> out-of-sync. Will committers remember to do the manual copy? See 3).

Issues 2, 3, and 4 are solved in one fell swoop by the use
of .htaccess and mod_rewrite magic. See Issue 13 below.

> 5) Extra impact on the Apache webserver. Is this a big bandwidth
> consumer? See some estimates in [4].

No comments, so don't worry about it.

> 6) What will be the URLs for the DTDs?
> http://xml.apache.org/forrest/dtd/...
> We presume that Forrest will not be a top-level project soon.

This is the big problem. The XML Project is talking about
moving Forrest under the wings of Cocoon.

So we should anticipate that and use cocoon URLs:
http://cocoon.apache.org/forrest/dtd/...
or even
http://cocoon.apache.org/dtd/...

See also new issues 12 and 13.

> 7) Does the Apache webserver deliver the supporting files using
> the appropriate Content-Type? Is that "text/plain"? Does it matter?
> We have *.dtd and *.mod and *.pen and *.ent extensions.

Tests proved that there is a problem with some of these
with the default webserver config. Never mind, .htaccess
to the rescue. See Issue 13 below.

Steven posted an RFC which might help us to decide.
See the discussion, there are some outstanding questions:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=forrest-dev&m=107408183417874

> 8) We have two separate directories in CVS. The /dtd/ and the
> /entity/ directories are parallel. We can probably merge
> everything into /dtd/ and change the Catalogs.

No comments. Merge them, because the entity sets are only
used by DTDs anyway.

> 9) We will never know if the Catalog Entity Resolver gets
> broken after an upgrade. Forrest will still work but will
> be slower, doing downloads of the DTD and supporting files
> on each document parse. We can probably add a test document
> in the "forrest seed site" to detect failure.

Do not use the "seed site" as a test mechanism. Add some
proper tests. Not sure yet whether JUnit or Anteater.

> 10) Cocoon has a copy of the DTDs and stuff in its own CVS
> so that it can build its own documentation via its webapp
> and command-line builds. This can still continue, but needs
> a better solution. Perhaps Forrest can provide later.

Okay.

> 11) Do we need to ask infrastructure@ about this proposal
> or just do it?

No comments, so just do it.

The new issues ...

12) With the last Forrest release, the System Identifiers were
changed to be URIs instead of local paths, e.g.
http://apache.org/forrest/dtd/...

This was unfortunate because now we need to handle the fact
that people will expect a DTD resource to be there. In the
upcoming Forrest and Cocoon release we will change all
default System Identifiers to be that adopted at Issue 6.

13) We are working on a .htaccess to rewrite the URLs to
deliver the resources via ViewCVS. This still needs some work.
See the previous message in this thread.

14) Test that it works. Yes, it does with XXE. Disable the
Forrest catalog.xcat then change the System Identifier in
one of your xdocs to point to
http://cocoon.apache.org/dtd/document-v12.dtd
Does it work with other tools?

15) It was suggested to do the same for XSD and RNG for
the Sitemap. None published yet, so address this later.

16) It was suggested that we need a document to assist
with configuration of local XML Tools. Here is a start:
http://xml.apache.org/forrest/catalog.html

17) Need to make extra effort to ensure that we adhere
to the proper naming convention for our DTDs and increment
the version numbers for every change.

--David

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>]

On 16 Jan 2004, at 21:01, Marshall Roch wrote:

> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>> I'm implying that many people in this list wouldn't know how to setup 
>> a mod_rewrite rule on top of their head, for example. And I'm 
>> implying that this is hurting this project and it's time to change 
>> that since, apparently, won't be changed by the httpd people as I 
>> expected it would have been.
>
> One of the big selling points of Forrest is that it is not tied to a 
> specific webserver:

sure, but how this has to do with our DTD hosting is a little hard for 
me to get.

> - Based on Java, Forrest is platform-independent, making for a 
> documentation system that is just as portable as the XML data it 
> processes.  (Forrest homepage)
>
> Although this is an Apache project, that does not mean that we should 
> tie it to HTTPd just because it too is an Apache project.

of course, but keep in mind that our web is hosted on apache and I 
think that is kinda unlikely that the ASF will move its web 
infrastructure on some other web server <grin/>

As for closer integration of forrest with httpd, I think it would be 
terribly useful, even if optional or configurable/out. When I'll hit 
that wall, you'll see the patches flowing. Then the community will 
decide what to do with them and it's fine for me.

> As the rest of this thread shows (you did read it before starting to 
> bitch about lack of HTTPd integration,  didn't you?),

:-)

> there are other avenues to explore in order to solve this problem.

I tossed in my proposal. The community will decide what to do.

And, pardon me, but I'll keep criticizing what I find criticizable. 
That's not bitching in my book, it's constructive criticism.

--
Stefano.

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[Marshall Roch <ma...@exclupen.com>]

Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> I'm implying that many people in this list wouldn't know how to setup a 
> mod_rewrite rule on top of their head, for example. And I'm implying 
> that this is hurting this project and it's time to change that since, 
> apparently, won't be changed by the httpd people as I expected it would 
> have been.

One of the big selling points of Forrest is that it is not tied to a 
specific webserver:

- Based on Java, Forrest is platform-independent, making for a 
documentation system that is just as portable as the XML data it 
processes.  (Forrest homepage)

Although this is an Apache project, that does not mean that we should 
tie it to HTTPd just because it too is an Apache project.  As the rest 
of this thread shows (you did read it before starting to bitch about 
lack of HTTPd integration,  didn't you?), there are other avenues to 
explore in order to solve this problem.

--
Marshall Roch

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>]

On 16 Jan 2004, at 10:06, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:

> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
>> On 15 Jan 2004, at 17:40, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> ...
>>> Stefano, who forgot that the problem is not notion but lack of itch 
>>> to scratch.
>> Sorry, but I don't buy that at all.
>
> <sarcasm>
>   So you imply that it's not done because we are ignorant?

I'm implying that many people in this list wouldn't know how to setup a 
mod_rewrite rule on top of their head, for example. And I'm implying 
that this is hurting this project and it's time to change that since, 
apparently, won't be changed by the httpd people as I expected it would 
have been.

>   Thanks for the support, we need injections like these, as
>   we are an "experiment".

pfff, we have been part of an experiment since the first day you came 
in apache, all of us, like it or not.

And you have been experimenting yourself as well in this project as 
well, so don't give me that look.

--
Stefano.

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>]

Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:

> On 15 Jan 2004, at 17:40, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
...
>> Stefano, who forgot that the problem is not notion but lack of itch to 
>> scratch.
> 
> Sorry, but I don't buy that at all.

<sarcasm>
   So you imply that it's not done because we are ignorant?
   Thanks for the support, we need injections like these, as
   we are an "experiment".
</sarcasm>

Well, for one /I/ don't care about it now.
If others have care for it now it would be cool though.

-- 
Nicola Ken Barozzi                   nicolaken@apache.org
             - verba volant, scripta manent -
    (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>]

On 15 Jan 2004, at 17:40, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:

> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> ...
>> Stefano, who has been waiting for some 18 months for somebody else to 
>>  come up with the idea of having forrest pregenerating the .htaccess  
>> file to do some sort of poor-man multichannel or content negotiation, 
>>  but has lost hope so it's time to inject notion in the system.
>
> Stefano, who forgot that the problem is not notion but lack of itch to 
> scratch.

Sorry, but I don't buy that at all.

--
Stefano.

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>]

Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
...
> Stefano, who has been waiting for some 18 months for somebody else to  
> come up with the idea of having forrest pregenerating the .htaccess  
> file to do some sort of poor-man multichannel or content negotiation,  
> but has lost hope so it's time to inject notion in the system.

Stefano, who forgot that the problem is not notion but lack of itch to 
scratch.

-- 
Nicola Ken Barozzi                   nicolaken@apache.org
             - verba volant, scripta manent -
    (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[Dave Brondsema <da...@brondsema.net>]

Quoting David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>:

> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> > David Crossley wrote:
> > > David Crossley wrote:
> > > <snip/>
> > > 
> > >>Here is what i have so far. It is not yet in CVS,
> > >>but exists at /www/cocoon.apache.org/dtd/
> > >>
> > >>You can experiment with it via http://cocoon.apache.org/dtd/
> > >>ask for say document-v12.dtd etc.
> > >>
> > >>I have reached a stage where i need help. The Proxy stuff
> > >>and the Cache stuff need some work.
> > > 
> > > <snip/>
> > > 
> > > The current .htaccess file is now in CVS at
> > > cocoon-site/site/dtd/
> > > Please help to enhance it.
> > 
> > Please help me to help you: what do you think it's missing?
> 
> See the FIXME notes inside the .htaccess file.
> 
> The Cache stuff, that you previously suggested, is commented-out
> because it does not work. It generates a 500 Internal Server Error
> (how do we find out what?).
> 

ssh apache.org
tail /var/log/www/error_log

-- 
Dave Brondsema 
dave@brondsema.net 
http://www.brondsema.net - personal 
http://www.splike.com - programming 
http://csx.calvin.edu - student org 

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>]

Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> David Crossley wrote:
> > David Crossley wrote:
> > <snip/>
> > 
> >>Here is what i have so far. It is not yet in CVS,
> >>but exists at /www/cocoon.apache.org/dtd/
> >>
> >>You can experiment with it via http://cocoon.apache.org/dtd/
> >>ask for say document-v12.dtd etc.
> >>
> >>I have reached a stage where i need help. The Proxy stuff
> >>and the Cache stuff need some work.
> > 
> > <snip/>
> > 
> > The current .htaccess file is now in CVS at
> > cocoon-site/site/dtd/
> > Please help to enhance it.
> 
> Please help me to help you: what do you think it's missing?

See the FIXME notes inside the .htaccess file.

The Cache stuff, that you previously suggested, is commented-out
because it does not work. It generates a 500 Internal Server Error
(how do we find out what?).

For the Proxy stuff, i am not sure if what it does is sufficient.

I posted the full .htaccess file earlier in this thread
and it is now in CVS (explained above).

To test it, i have been using the 'HEAD' tool that comes
with LWP to ask for the DTDs from the webserver.

--David

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>]

David Crossley wrote:

> David Crossley wrote:
> <snip/>
> 
>>Here is what i have so far. It is not yet in CVS,
>>but exists at /www/cocoon.apache.org/dtd/
>>
>>You can experiment with it via http://cocoon.apache.org/dtd/
>>ask for say document-v12.dtd etc.
>>
>>I have reached a stage where i need help. The Proxy stuff
>>and the Cache stuff need some work.
> 
> <snip/>
> 
> The current .htaccess file is now in CVS at
> cocoon-site/site/dtd/
> Please help to enhance it.

Please help me to help you: what do you think it's missing?

-- 
Stefano.

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>]

David Crossley wrote:
<snip/>
> 
> Here is what i have so far. It is not yet in CVS,
> but exists at /www/cocoon.apache.org/dtd/
> 
> You can experiment with it via http://cocoon.apache.org/dtd/
> ask for say document-v12.dtd etc.
> 
> I have reached a stage where i need help. The Proxy stuff
> and the Cache stuff need some work.
<snip/>

The current .htaccess file is now in CVS at
cocoon-site/site/dtd/
Please help to enhance it.

--David

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>]

I started to experiment with Stefano's suggestion to use
a .htaccess file and ProxyPass the DTDs via ViewCVS.

This approach may not work because the media types will
be wrong. Everything will come out as text/plain
whereas the DTDs and the associated *.mod need to be
application/xml-dtd and *.pen *.ent are a different media type.

ViewCVS does let you specify the "content-type". However, we
cannot use mod_proxy because query string cannot be passed.

So on to mod_rewrite.

Here is what i have so far. It is not yet in CVS,
but exists at /www/cocoon.apache.org/dtd/

You can experiment with it via http://cocoon.apache.org/dtd/
ask for say document-v12.dtd etc.

I have reached a stage where i need help. The Proxy stuff
and the Cache stuff need some work.

----------
# See the index.html in this directory.
#
# The reason for this .htaccess is to deliver DTDs and
# associated resources to some impoverished XML tools
# that do not use the Catalog Entity Resolver.

# Get the content straight out of ViewCVS
# and use the appropriate media type:
# See http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc3023.html
# FIXME: Verify these media types and maybe add charset
#
RewriteEngine On
RewriteRule "(.*)\.dtd$"
"http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/*checkout*/xml-forrest/src/core/context/resources/schema/dtd/$1.dtd?content-type=application/xml-dtd" [P]
RewriteRule "(.*)\.mod$"
"http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/*checkout*/xml-forrest/src/core/context/resources/schema/dtd/$1.mod?content-type=application/xml-dtd" [P]
RewriteRule "(.*)\.pen$"
"http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/*checkout*/xml-forrest/src/core/context/resources/schema/dtd/$1.pen?content-type=application/xml-external-parsed-entity" [P]
RewriteRule "(.*)\.ent$"
"http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/*checkout*/xml-forrest/src/core/context/resources/schema/dtd/$1.ent?content-type=application/xml-external-parsed-entity" [P]

# FIXME: Cache stuff is not yet working
#
# Now, since ViewCVS is slow, make sure we cache it
#CacheEnable mem

# for a day
#CacheDefaultExpire 86400
   #MCacheSize 4096
   #MCacheMaxObjectCount 100
   #MCacheMinObjectSize 1
   #MCacheMaxObjectSize 2048

# and in case your client is a good web citizen, tell the proxies
# to avoid calling us, since we guarantee that the content is fresh
# for a day
#ExpiresActive On
#ExpiresDefault "access plus 1 day"
----------

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[Juan Jose Pablos <ch...@che-che.com>]

Stefano,

Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> nono, you guys don't get it: it was a social experiment about cross 
> pollination between the java/xml world and the httpd world.
> 
Are you talking about forrest?, I did like the idea but I do not know 
what would be posible to do with .htaccess. To tell you the truth, I 
though that was only to do about usernames/passwd.

> but, at the very end, I don't really care since i think that static 
> pregeneration of web sites will (very slowly but constantly) die out: 
> all web content will need some form of dynamism.
Still, there is a need, and possibly a lot of people with same needs.


> But you need a bridge over this huge and nasty river.
> 
> And this is what forrest is all about in my mind.
> 
> -- 
> Stefano.

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>]

Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> Juan Jose Pablos wrote:
> 
> > Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> > <htaccess stuf/>
> >
> >> Stefano, who has been waiting for some 18 months for somebody else to 
> >>  come up with the idea of having forrest pregenerating the .htaccess  
> >> file to do some sort of poor-man multichannel or content negotiation, 
> >>  but has lost hope so it's time to inject notion in the system.
> >
> > Stefano, who forgot to add that request on Jira, bugzilla or something 
> > similar, because he realized that people is not able to read his mind 
> > :-)
> 
> nono, you guys don't get it: it was a social experiment about cross 
> pollination between the java/xml world and the httpd world.
<snip/>

Please do not discuss new topics inside Proposal threads.
I seem to be the poor sucker that has to pull all this
together and i do not have time to wade through other
(albeit good) stuff when trying to summarise it.

http://cocoon.apache.org/community/contrib.html#Contribution+Notes+and+Tips
Item 4.

--David

Forrest is an evolving bridge

[David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>]

Stefano Mazzocchi wrote in the thread:
Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-cocoon-dev&m=107418821508273
> Juan Jose Pablos wrote:
> > Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> > <htaccess stuf/>
> >
> >> Stefano, who has been waiting for some 18 months for somebody else to 
> >>  come up with the idea of having forrest pregenerating the .htaccess  
> >> file to do some sort of poor-man multichannel or content negotiation, 
> >>  but has lost hope so it's time to inject notion in the system.
> >
> > Stefano, who forgot to add that request on Jira, bugzilla or something 
> > similar, because he realized that people is not able to read his mind 
> > :-)
> 
> nono, you guys don't get it: it was a social experiment about cross 
> pollination between the java/xml world and the httpd world.

I gather that you mean during the threads
Re: on second thought: forrest must start dynamic?
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=forrest-dev&m=101450756132432

Re: Forrest: dynamic or static?
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=forrest-dev&m=106411342205648

> Forrest, by generating static stuff, is the closest thing to the 
> original HTTPd mindset. All the "fancy dynamic stuff" didn't catch up 
> over httpd, it was simply too painful to write a web application in C 
> and there are so many modules that can be useful all over the place.
> 
> The rest was modules that glued other languages, but moved away large 
> chunks of the community. So much so that nowadays, very few web-app 
> power users are also httpd power users, because they isolate 
> themselves.
> 
> Since forrest is now slowly taking over all apache.org web sites, this 
> exposes this project to all sort of different mindsets, I wanted to see 
> how long it would take for stronger httpd interaction to surface, but 
> it didn't happen.

We agreed in those threads that these things were possible
and suited our mission.

However remember that Forrest was, and still is, short-staffed.
When people inject great ideas occasionally, then move on, it may
take a while to happen. Today's discussion might provide impetus.

After we get our current skins sorted, we can probably start to
utilise your .htaccess ideas when the build is destined for a
webserver that is driven by an Apache httpd.

> It's not criticism to the forrest community, not at all. I would say 
> it's criticism for those coming from a non-java/non-xml world: they 
> failed to provide the input that might have shaped the project in such 
> a way that would have pleased them more.
> 
> Anyway, since David was ready to propose a massive URL change for DTDs

Actually trying to solve a dilemma. Perhaps you didn't catch the
earlier discussion in that proposal that lead to this issue.

> I had to say something and the .htaccess magic is the way I would
> solve many forrest issues that are now solved with hacky client-side 
> javascript.

Thanks, we will try to use such techniques.

> but, at the very end, I don't really care since i think that static 
> pregeneration of web sites will (very slowly but constantly) die out: 
> all web content will need some form of dynamism.
> 
> But you need a bridge over this huge and nasty river.
> 
> And this is what forrest is all about in my mind.
>
> --
> Stefano.

To me, Forrest is an evolving bridge. We can use it to cross
today's rivers, then keep making it more capable to deal with
all rivers.

It is a well-known fact that Apache infrastructure is not yet
ready for dynamic webapps (though it is making giant leaps).
Cocoon can still not be employed, let alone a dynamic Forrest.

Please read the first paragraph on our website. We have not
ruled out Forrest's ability to be dynamic. It is just that the
dynamic bits must not compromise the default static capability.

--David

Forrest is an evolving bridge

[David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>]

Stefano Mazzocchi wrote in the thread:
Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-cocoon-dev&m=107418821508273
> Juan Jose Pablos wrote:
> > Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> > <htaccess stuf/>
> >
> >> Stefano, who has been waiting for some 18 months for somebody else to 
> >>  come up with the idea of having forrest pregenerating the .htaccess  
> >> file to do some sort of poor-man multichannel or content negotiation, 
> >>  but has lost hope so it's time to inject notion in the system.
> >
> > Stefano, who forgot to add that request on Jira, bugzilla or something 
> > similar, because he realized that people is not able to read his mind 
> > :-)
> 
> nono, you guys don't get it: it was a social experiment about cross 
> pollination between the java/xml world and the httpd world.

I gather that you mean during the threads
Re: on second thought: forrest must start dynamic?
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=forrest-dev&m=101450756132432

Re: Forrest: dynamic or static?
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=forrest-dev&m=106411342205648

> Forrest, by generating static stuff, is the closest thing to the 
> original HTTPd mindset. All the "fancy dynamic stuff" didn't catch up 
> over httpd, it was simply too painful to write a web application in C 
> and there are so many modules that can be useful all over the place.
> 
> The rest was modules that glued other languages, but moved away large 
> chunks of the community. So much so that nowadays, very few web-app 
> power users are also httpd power users, because they isolate 
> themselves.
> 
> Since forrest is now slowly taking over all apache.org web sites, this 
> exposes this project to all sort of different mindsets, I wanted to see 
> how long it would take for stronger httpd interaction to surface, but 
> it didn't happen.

We agreed in those threads that these things were possible
and suited our mission.

However remember that Forrest was, and still is, short-staffed.
When people inject great ideas occasionally, then move on, it may
take a while to happen. Today's discussion might provide impetus.

After we get our current skins sorted, we can probably start to
utilise your .htaccess ideas when the build is destined for a
webserver that is driven by an Apache httpd.

> It's not criticism to the forrest community, not at all. I would say 
> it's criticism for those coming from a non-java/non-xml world: they 
> failed to provide the input that might have shaped the project in such 
> a way that would have pleased them more.
> 
> Anyway, since David was ready to propose a massive URL change for DTDs

Actually trying to solve a dilemma. Perhaps you didn't catch the
earlier discussion in that proposal that lead to this issue.

> I had to say something and the .htaccess magic is the way I would
> solve many forrest issues that are now solved with hacky client-side 
> javascript.

Thanks, we will try to use such techniques.

> but, at the very end, I don't really care since i think that static 
> pregeneration of web sites will (very slowly but constantly) die out: 
> all web content will need some form of dynamism.
> 
> But you need a bridge over this huge and nasty river.
> 
> And this is what forrest is all about in my mind.
>
> --
> Stefano.

To me, Forrest is an evolving bridge. We can use it to cross
today's rivers, then keep making it more capable to deal with
all rivers.

It is a well-known fact that Apache infrastructure is not yet
ready for dynamic webapps (though it is making giant leaps).
Cocoon can still not be employed, let alone a dynamic Forrest.

Please read the first paragraph on our website. We have not
ruled out Forrest's ability to be dynamic. It is just that the
dynamic bits must not compromise the default static capability.

--David

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[Juan Jose Pablos <ch...@che-che.com>]

Stefano,

Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> nono, you guys don't get it: it was a social experiment about cross 
> pollination between the java/xml world and the httpd world.
> 
Are you talking about forrest?, I did like the idea but I do not know 
what would be posible to do with .htaccess. To tell you the truth, I 
though that was only to do about usernames/passwd.

> but, at the very end, I don't really care since i think that static 
> pregeneration of web sites will (very slowly but constantly) die out: 
> all web content will need some form of dynamism.
Still, there is a need, and possibly a lot of people with same needs.


> But you need a bridge over this huge and nasty river.
> 
> And this is what forrest is all about in my mind.
> 
> -- 
> Stefano.

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>]

Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> Juan Jose Pablos wrote:
> 
> > Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> > <htaccess stuf/>
> >
> >> Stefano, who has been waiting for some 18 months for somebody else to 
> >>  come up with the idea of having forrest pregenerating the .htaccess  
> >> file to do some sort of poor-man multichannel or content negotiation, 
> >>  but has lost hope so it's time to inject notion in the system.
> >
> > Stefano, who forgot to add that request on Jira, bugzilla or something 
> > similar, because he realized that people is not able to read his mind 
> > :-)
> 
> nono, you guys don't get it: it was a social experiment about cross 
> pollination between the java/xml world and the httpd world.
<snip/>

Please do not discuss new topics inside Proposal threads.
I seem to be the poor sucker that has to pull all this
together and i do not have time to wade through other
(albeit good) stuff when trying to summarise it.

http://cocoon.apache.org/community/contrib.html#Contribution+Notes+and+Tips
Item 4.

--David

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>]

On 15 Jan 2004, at 16:15, Juan Jose Pablos wrote:

> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> <htaccess stuf/>
>
>> Stefano, who has been waiting for some 18 months for somebody else to 
>>  come up with the idea of having forrest pregenerating the .htaccess  
>> file to do some sort of poor-man multichannel or content negotiation, 
>>  but has lost hope so it's time to inject notion in the system.
>
> Stefano, who forgot to add that request on Jira, bugzilla or something 
> similar, because he realized that people is not able to read his mind 
> :-)

nono, you guys don't get it: it was a social experiment about cross 
pollination between the java/xml world and the httpd world.

Forrest, by generating static stuff, is the closest thing to the 
original HTTPd mindset. All the "fancy dynamic stuff" didn't catch up 
over httpd, it was simply too painful to write a web application in C 
and there are so many modules that can be useful all over the place.

The rest was modules that glued other languages, but moved away large 
chunks of the community. So much so that nowadays, very few web-app 
power users are also httpd power users, because they isolate 
themselves.

Since forrest is now slowly taking over all apache.org web sites, this 
exposes this project to all sort of different mindsets, I wanted to see 
how long it would take for stronger httpd interaction to surface, but 
it didn't happen.

It's not criticism to the forrest community, not at all. I would say 
it's criticism for those coming from a non-java/non-xml world: they 
failed to provide the input that might have shaped the project in such 
a way that would have pleased them more.

Anyway, since David was ready to propose a massive URL change for DTDs 
I had to say something and the .htaccess magic is the way I would solve 
many forrest issues that are now solved with hacky client-side 
javascript.

but, at the very end, I don't really care since i think that static 
pregeneration of web sites will (very slowly but constantly) die out: 
all web content will need some form of dynamism.

But you need a bridge over this huge and nasty river.

And this is what forrest is all about in my mind.

--
Stefano.

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[Juan Jose Pablos <ch...@che-che.com>]

Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
<htaccess stuf/>

> Stefano, who has been waiting for some 18 months for somebody else to  
> come up with the idea of having forrest pregenerating the .htaccess  
> file to do some sort of poor-man multichannel or content negotiation,  
> but has lost hope so it's time to inject notion in the system.

Stefano, who forgot to add that request on Jira, bugzilla or something 
similar, because he realized that people is not able to read his mind :-)

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>]

On 16 Jan 2004, at 03:16, David Crossley wrote:

> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> <snip/>
>> Ok, a little more .htaccess magic:
>>
>> # First, proxy the content straight out of ViewCVS
> <snip for brevity/>
>> # Now, since ViewCVS is pretty slow, make sure you cache it
>> CacheEnable mem /forrest/
>>
>> # for a day
>> CacheDefaultExpire 86400
>>    MCacheSize 4096
>>    MCacheMaxObjectCount 100
>>    MCacheMinObjectSize 1
>>    MCacheMaxObjectSize 2048
>>
>> # and in case your client is a good web citizen,
>> # tell the proxies down the road to avoid calling us
>> # since we guarantee the content is fresh for a day
>> ExpiresActive On
>> ExpiresDefault "access plus 1 day"
>
> It could be way longer than that. These are published
> resources that should not change.

David,

understand that 1 day is not the granularity of the potential change 
time of the resource, but the time you want everybody in the world to 
update in case you *do* change it.

The expire header indicates proxies how long to cache that resource and 
avoid hitting you back. If you set this to a year, for example, you 
won't see your changes percolating thru proxies in less than this 
period... and this will be a random experience for your users and there 
is no way for us to signal those proxies to invalidate their cache 
because they won't hit us (for the way the web is setup).

[the same problem happens with DNS, btw]

--
Stefano.

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>]

Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
<snip/>
> Ok, a little more .htaccess magic:
> 
> # First, proxy the content straight out of ViewCVS
<snip for brevity/>
> # Now, since ViewCVS is pretty slow, make sure you cache it
> CacheEnable mem /forrest/
> 
> # for a day
> CacheDefaultExpire 86400
>    MCacheSize 4096
>    MCacheMaxObjectCount 100
>    MCacheMinObjectSize 1
>    MCacheMaxObjectSize 2048
> 
> # and in case your client is a good web citizen,
> # tell the proxies down the road to avoid calling us
> # since we guarantee the content is fresh for a day 
> ExpiresActive On
> ExpiresDefault "access plus 1 day"

It could be way longer than that. These are published
resources that should not change.

--David

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>]

On 15 Jan 2004, at 05:05, David Crossley wrote:

> Joerg Heinicke wrote:
>> David Crossley wrote:
>>
>>> 3) The Forrest website is built using the "stable" version of
>>> Forrest (currently v0.5.1). So how will DTDs from the current
>>> CVS (v0.6-dev) get into the website CVS [3]? Manual copy? See 4).
>>>
>>> 4) If some committer changes the DTDs in CVS then they will be
>>> out-of-sync. Will committers remember to do the manual copy? See 3).
>>
>> I don't see this problem. On the one hand there are the older files  
>> like
>> document 0.10 or 0.11 that won't be touched, on the other hand 0.12  
>> (or
>> is it already old too?) which is developed at the moment. You can't  
>> make
>> incompatible changes for one version, otherwise you will break  
>> possibly
>> thousands of documents out there. So only extensions are possible.
>
> Absolutely. I think that i got a bit mixed up with whatever i was
> trying to say in item 4. We need proper version control and we
> have a naming convention for that.
>
> Forrest has been careful not to introduce any incompatible changes.
> However, i think that we need to be more careful about adding even
> new optional stuff. Every change should be a totally new DTD version.
>
>> In
>> conclusion: the update cycle must not be once per minute, but maybe  
>> once
>> per day or only week. Now what about having a cron job running on the
>> website server that checks out recent DTD versions? Forcing manual  
>> work
>> that's critical and without much effort automatically doable sounds  
>> not
>> that good.
>
> Good idea. Nicola Ken suggested something similar.

Ok, a little more .htaccess magic:

# First, proxy the content straight out of ViewCVS
ProxyPass        /forrest/  
http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/*checkout*/xml-forrest/src/core/ 
context/resources/schema/dtd/
ProxyPassReverse /forrest/  
http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/*checkout*/xml-forrest/src/core/ 
context/resources/schema/dtd/

# Now, since ViewCVS is pretty slow, make sure you cache it
CacheEnable mem /forrest/

# for a day
CacheDefaultExpire 86400
   MCacheSize 4096
   MCacheMaxObjectCount 100
   MCacheMinObjectSize 1
   MCacheMaxObjectSize 2048

# and in case your client is a good web citizen, tell the proxies down  
the road
# to avoid calling us since we guarantee the content is fresh for a day
ExpiresActive On
ExpiresDefault "access plus 1 day"

> --
Stefano, who has been waiting for some 18 months for somebody else to  
come up with the idea of having forrest pregenerating the .htaccess  
file to do some sort of poor-man multichannel or content negotiation,  
but has lost hope so it's time to inject notion in the system.

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>]

On 15 Jan 2004, at 05:05, David Crossley wrote:

> Joerg Heinicke wrote:
>> David Crossley wrote:
>>
>>> 3) The Forrest website is built using the "stable" version of
>>> Forrest (currently v0.5.1). So how will DTDs from the current
>>> CVS (v0.6-dev) get into the website CVS [3]? Manual copy? See 4).
>>>
>>> 4) If some committer changes the DTDs in CVS then they will be
>>> out-of-sync. Will committers remember to do the manual copy? See 3).
>>
>> I don't see this problem. On the one hand there are the older files  
>> like
>> document 0.10 or 0.11 that won't be touched, on the other hand 0.12  
>> (or
>> is it already old too?) which is developed at the moment. You can't  
>> make
>> incompatible changes for one version, otherwise you will break  
>> possibly
>> thousands of documents out there. So only extensions are possible.
>
> Absolutely. I think that i got a bit mixed up with whatever i was
> trying to say in item 4. We need proper version control and we
> have a naming convention for that.
>
> Forrest has been careful not to introduce any incompatible changes.
> However, i think that we need to be more careful about adding even
> new optional stuff. Every change should be a totally new DTD version.
>
>> In
>> conclusion: the update cycle must not be once per minute, but maybe  
>> once
>> per day or only week. Now what about having a cron job running on the
>> website server that checks out recent DTD versions? Forcing manual  
>> work
>> that's critical and without much effort automatically doable sounds  
>> not
>> that good.
>
> Good idea. Nicola Ken suggested something similar.

Ok, a little more .htaccess magic:

# First, proxy the content straight out of ViewCVS
ProxyPass        /forrest/  
http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/*checkout*/xml-forrest/src/core/ 
context/resources/schema/dtd/
ProxyPassReverse /forrest/  
http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/*checkout*/xml-forrest/src/core/ 
context/resources/schema/dtd/

# Now, since ViewCVS is pretty slow, make sure you cache it
CacheEnable mem /forrest/

# for a day
CacheDefaultExpire 86400
   MCacheSize 4096
   MCacheMaxObjectCount 100
   MCacheMinObjectSize 1
   MCacheMaxObjectSize 2048

# and in case your client is a good web citizen, tell the proxies down  
the road
# to avoid calling us since we guarantee the content is fresh for a day
ExpiresActive On
ExpiresDefault "access plus 1 day"

> --
Stefano, who has been waiting for some 18 months for somebody else to  
come up with the idea of having forrest pregenerating the .htaccess  
file to do some sort of poor-man multichannel or content negotiation,  
but has lost hope so it's time to inject notion in the system.

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[Joerg Heinicke <jo...@gmx.de>]

On 15.01.2004 05:05, David Crossley wrote:

>>>9) We will never know if the Catalog Entity Resolver gets
>>>broken after an upgrade. Forrest will still work but will
>>>be slower, doing downloads of the DTD and supporting files
>>>on each document parse. We can probably add a test document
>>>in the "forrest seed site" to detect failure.
>>
>>A really bad argument against the proposal :) Of course a real test is 
>>the way to go here.
> 
> 
> I gather that you mean a "good argument". That is why i listed that
> issue. It would be a bad thing if Forrest/Cocoon silently started
> doing network retrievals like the current Xerces-2.6 web.xml issue.

No, I meant "bad argument". Having the whole application as test case is 
  "nicht im Sinne des Erfinders" - or in English: The application itself 
should just not serve as a test case.

> Forrest does now have a "build test" target which tries to build the
> "forrest seed site". Are you suggesting that we would be better to
> re-instate the JUnit tests that Cocoon used to have? I am no expert,
> but i think that we need the test to actually be a part of the
> Forrest machinery so that when users create a new "project" then
> they get the test happening too.

I imagined no special type of a test, only "there should be a test". I 
don't know how you can control whether Xerces retrieves the DTDs from 
network or not.

Joerg

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>]

Joerg Heinicke wrote:
> David Crossley wrote:
> 
> > 3) The Forrest website is built using the "stable" version of
> > Forrest (currently v0.5.1). So how will DTDs from the current
> > CVS (v0.6-dev) get into the website CVS [3]? Manual copy? See 4).
> > 
> > 4) If some committer changes the DTDs in CVS then they will be
> > out-of-sync. Will committers remember to do the manual copy? See 3).
> 
> I don't see this problem. On the one hand there are the older files like 
> document 0.10 or 0.11 that won't be touched, on the other hand 0.12 (or 
> is it already old too?) which is developed at the moment. You can't make 
> incompatible changes for one version, otherwise you will break possibly 
> thousands of documents out there. So only extensions are possible.

Absolutely. I think that i got a bit mixed up with whatever i was
trying to say in item 4. We need proper version control and we
have a naming convention for that.

Forrest has been careful not to introduce any incompatible changes.
However, i think that we need to be more careful about adding even
new optional stuff. Every change should be a totally new DTD version.

> In 
> conclusion: the update cycle must not be once per minute, but maybe once 
> per day or only week. Now what about having a cron job running on the 
> website server that checks out recent DTD versions? Forcing manual work 
> that's critical and without much effort automatically doable sounds not 
> that good.

Good idea. Nicola Ken suggested something similar. I think that
we need to be careful how far the automation goes. I mean that
there are DTD versions in the HEAD CVS that are perhaps not yet
ready to go public. Perhaps a deliberate manual process is better,
but have a cronjob that reminds us if there are missing files
on the website.

> > 9) We will never know if the Catalog Entity Resolver gets
> > broken after an upgrade. Forrest will still work but will
> > be slower, doing downloads of the DTD and supporting files
> > on each document parse. We can probably add a test document
> > in the "forrest seed site" to detect failure.
> 
> A really bad argument against the proposal :) Of course a real test is 
> the way to go here.

I gather that you mean a "good argument". That is why i listed that
issue. It would be a bad thing if Forrest/Cocoon silently started
doing network retrievals like the current Xerces-2.6 web.xml issue.

Forrest does now have a "build test" target which tries to build the
"forrest seed site". Are you suggesting that we would be better to
re-instate the JUnit tests that Cocoon used to have? I am no expert,
but i think that we need the test to actually be a part of the
Forrest machinery so that when users create a new "project" then
they get the test happening too.

--David

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>]

Joerg Heinicke wrote:
> David Crossley wrote:
> 
> > 3) The Forrest website is built using the "stable" version of
> > Forrest (currently v0.5.1). So how will DTDs from the current
> > CVS (v0.6-dev) get into the website CVS [3]? Manual copy? See 4).
> > 
> > 4) If some committer changes the DTDs in CVS then they will be
> > out-of-sync. Will committers remember to do the manual copy? See 3).
> 
> I don't see this problem. On the one hand there are the older files like 
> document 0.10 or 0.11 that won't be touched, on the other hand 0.12 (or 
> is it already old too?) which is developed at the moment. You can't make 
> incompatible changes for one version, otherwise you will break possibly 
> thousands of documents out there. So only extensions are possible.

Absolutely. I think that i got a bit mixed up with whatever i was
trying to say in item 4. We need proper version control and we
have a naming convention for that.

Forrest has been careful not to introduce any incompatible changes.
However, i think that we need to be more careful about adding even
new optional stuff. Every change should be a totally new DTD version.

> In 
> conclusion: the update cycle must not be once per minute, but maybe once 
> per day or only week. Now what about having a cron job running on the 
> website server that checks out recent DTD versions? Forcing manual work 
> that's critical and without much effort automatically doable sounds not 
> that good.

Good idea. Nicola Ken suggested something similar. I think that
we need to be careful how far the automation goes. I mean that
there are DTD versions in the HEAD CVS that are perhaps not yet
ready to go public. Perhaps a deliberate manual process is better,
but have a cronjob that reminds us if there are missing files
on the website.

> > 9) We will never know if the Catalog Entity Resolver gets
> > broken after an upgrade. Forrest will still work but will
> > be slower, doing downloads of the DTD and supporting files
> > on each document parse. We can probably add a test document
> > in the "forrest seed site" to detect failure.
> 
> A really bad argument against the proposal :) Of course a real test is 
> the way to go here.

I gather that you mean a "good argument". That is why i listed that
issue. It would be a bad thing if Forrest/Cocoon silently started
doing network retrievals like the current Xerces-2.6 web.xml issue.

Forrest does now have a "build test" target which tries to build the
"forrest seed site". Are you suggesting that we would be better to
re-instate the JUnit tests that Cocoon used to have? I am no expert,
but i think that we need the test to actually be a part of the
Forrest machinery so that when users create a new "project" then
they get the test happening too.

--David

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[Joerg Heinicke <jo...@gmx.de>]

I'm not CCing Forrest as I'm not subscribed there and they don't 
moderate my mails through.

On 14.01.2004 05:53, David Crossley wrote:

> 3) The Forrest website is built using the "stable" version of
> Forrest (currently v0.5.1). So how will DTDs from the current
> CVS (v0.6-dev) get into the website CVS [3]? Manual copy? See 4).
> 
> 4) If some committer changes the DTDs in CVS then they will be
> out-of-sync. Will committers remember to do the manual copy? See 3).

I don't see this problem. On the one hand there are the older files like 
document 0.10 or 0.11 that won't be touched, on the other hand 0.12 (or 
is it already old too?) which is developed at the moment. You can't make 
incompatible changes for one version, otherwise you will break possibly 
thousands of documents out there. So only extensions are possible. In 
conclusion: the update cycle must not be once per minute, but maybe once 
per day or only week. Now what about having a cron job running on the 
website server that checks out recent DTD versions? Forcing manual work 
that's critical and without much effort automatically doable sounds not 
that good.

> 9) We will never know if the Catalog Entity Resolver gets
> broken after an upgrade. Forrest will still work but will
> be slower, doing downloads of the DTD and supporting files
> on each document parse. We can probably add a test document
> in the "forrest seed site" to detect failure.

A really bad argument against the proposal :) Of course a real test is 
the way to go here.

Joerg

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>]

Dave Brondsema wrote:
> David Crossley wrote:
> 
> > It is worth the effort. We get way too many questions from users.
> 
> So it should be an FAQ.

It should be a document and FAQ, no matter what we do. I will take
that job on.

> > > If this is the case, putting up documentation about how to configure the
> > > most common editors to work with Forrest would be all that's needed to
> > > make me happy.  The only reason it's a problem for me is because I don't
> > > know how to set up the catalog resolver in Eclipse.
> >
> > Yes, i thought about that. However it is not really Forrest's job.
> > We could document it at Apache XML Commons. Anyway, i agree we need
> > something. I will set up a doc somewhere and ask people for their
> > config tips.
> 
> If this document is written (no matter where it's hosted) and we reference
> it in our FAQ, I think the large majority of users will be satisfied and
> we won't have to put the DTDs online.

This is the approach that i have been trying to take since the
year dot. In recent months, comments on cocoon-users, cocoon-dev,
and now here, lead me to start this proposal. If discussion and
testing goes against it, then i am happy not to put them on-line.

Maybe the missing piece has been explicit notes about how to
configure it with the various tools. However, what about the
web browsers? It seems that people want to use their browser
to read every file that they come across. For them it is broken
and that is a bad look for Forrest.

--David

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[Dave Brondsema <da...@brondsema.net>]

On Wed, 14 Jan 2004, David Crossley wrote:

> It is worth the effort. We get way too many questions from users.
>

So it should be an FAQ.

> > If this is the case, putting up documentation about how to configure the
> > most common editors to work with Forrest would be all that's needed to
> > make me happy.  The only reason it's a problem for me is because I don't
> > know how to set up the catalog resolver in Eclipse.
>
> Yes, i thought about that. However it is not really Forrest's job.
> We could document it at Apache XML Commons. Anyway, i agree we need
> something. I will set up a doc somewhere and ask people for their
> config tips.

If this document is written (no matter where it's hosted) and we reference
it in our FAQ, I think the large majority of users will be satisfied and
we won't have to put the DTDs online.


-- 
Dave Brondsema
dave@brondsema.net
http://www.brondsema.net - personal
http://www.splike.com - programming
http://csx.calvin.edu - Calvin club

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>]

ycdtosa wrote:
> David Crossley wrote:
> > David Crossley wrote:
> > >
> > > One of main reasons that we are getting questions, is that people
> > > try to view an XML doc with their web browser. Lo and behold
> > > it breaks. Then they blame us.
> > > 
> > > I actually wonder if putting the DTDs online will even solve that.
> > > Are the browsers able to follow relative links from one part of
> > > the DTD to the next? For example:
> > > 
> > > faq-v12.dtd
> > > ...> document-v12.mod
> > > ...> faq-v12.mod
> > > ...> common-charents-v10.mod
> > > ........> ISO*.pen (5 separate files)
> > 
> > I tried a test by putting some of the DTDs at
> > http://www.apache.org/~crossley/dtd-test/
> > 
> > Please try the test doc in that directory "faq.xml"
> > using your favourite XML editor and your browser.
> > 
> > For me, Mozilla did not get past the — entity
> > which is present in the ISOpub.pen entity set.
> 
> neither of these:
>     FireBird (another Mozilla/Geko based)
>     k-maleon (Geko based)
>     MS ie6.01 SP1
>     
> Same error.

Thanks. Would someone please try this from one of
those XML editors.

I just now tried shifting some things around, linking the
ISOpub.pen directly from the top-level DTD. All to no avail. 

It might be the "media type" issue discussed with Steven
earlier in this thread. So i extracted the mdash entity and
put it directly into the top-level DTD. Still no go. So i
set things back the way they were.

The only thing that fixed it was putting the mdash entity
declaration directly into the faq.xml internal subset.

--David

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[ycdtosa <yc...@eupla.unizar.es>]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Crossley" <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>
To: <fo...@xml.apache.org>; <de...@cocoon.apache.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 11:47 AM
Subject: Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website


> David Crossley wrote:
> > David Crossley wrote:
> >
> > One of main reasons that we are getting questions, is that people
> > try to view an XML doc with their web browser. Lo and behold
> > it breaks. Then they blame us.
> > 
> > I actually wonder if putting the DTDs online will even solve that.
> > Are the browsers able to follow relative links from one part of
> > the DTD to the next? For example:
> > 
> > faq-v12.dtd
> > ...> document-v12.mod
> > ...> faq-v12.mod
> > ...> common-charents-v10.mod
> > ........> ISO*.pen (5 separate files)
> 
> I tried a test by putting some of the DTDs at
> http://www.apache.org/~crossley/dtd-test/
> 
> Please try the test doc in that directory "faq.xml"
> using your favourite XML editor and your browser.
> 
> For me, Mozilla did not get past the &mdash; entity
> which is present in the ISOpub.pen entity set.

neither of these:
    FireBird (another Mozilla/Geko based)
    k-maleon (Geko based)
    MS ie6.01 SP1
    
Same error.

> 
> --David
> 

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>]

David Crossley wrote:
> David Crossley wrote:
> > Marshall Roch wrote:
> <snip/>
> > 
> > > You've convinced me that it's not worth the effort to get
> > > the DTDs online. See below. (...about configuration notes.)
> > 
> > It is worth the effort. We get way too many questions from users.
> 
> One of main reasons that we are getting questions, is that people
> try to view an XML doc with their web browser. Lo and behold
> it breaks. Then they blame us.
> 
> I actually wonder if putting the DTDs online will even solve that.
> Are the browsers able to follow relative links from one part of
> the DTD to the next? For example:
> 
> faq-v12.dtd
> ...> document-v12.mod
> ...> faq-v12.mod
> ...> common-charents-v10.mod
> ........> ISO*.pen (5 separate files)

I tried a test by putting some of the DTDs at
http://www.apache.org/~crossley/dtd-test/

Please try the test doc in that directory "faq.xml"
using your favourite XML editor and your browser.

For me, Mozilla did not get past the &mdash; entity
which is present in the ISOpub.pen entity set.

--David

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>]

David Crossley wrote:
> David Crossley wrote:
> > Marshall Roch wrote:
> <snip/>
> > 
> > > You've convinced me that it's not worth the effort to get
> > > the DTDs online. See below. (...about configuration notes.)
> > 
> > It is worth the effort. We get way too many questions from users.
> 
> One of main reasons that we are getting questions, is that people
> try to view an XML doc with their web browser. Lo and behold
> it breaks. Then they blame us.
> 
> I actually wonder if putting the DTDs online will even solve that.
> Are the browsers able to follow relative links from one part of
> the DTD to the next? For example:
> 
> faq-v12.dtd
> ...> document-v12.mod
> ...> faq-v12.mod
> ...> common-charents-v10.mod
> ........> ISO*.pen (5 separate files)

I tried a test by putting some of the DTDs at
http://www.apache.org/~crossley/dtd-test/

Please try the test doc in that directory "faq.xml"
using your favourite XML editor and your browser.

For me, Mozilla did not get past the &mdash; entity
which is present in the ISOpub.pen entity set.

--David

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>]

David Crossley wrote:
> Marshall Roch wrote:
<snip/>
> 
> > You've convinced me that it's not worth the effort to get
> > the DTDs online. See below. (...about configuration notes.)
> 
> It is worth the effort. We get way too many questions from users.

One of main reasons that we are getting questions, is that people
try to view an XML doc with their web browser. Lo and behold
it breaks. Then they blame us.

I actually wonder if putting the DTDs online will even solve that.
Are the browsers able to follow relative links from one part of
the DTD to the next? For example:

faq-v12.dtd
...> document-v12.mod
...> faq-v12.mod
...> common-charents-v10.mod
........> ISO*.pen (5 separate files)

--David

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[Paul Smith <go...@yahoo.com>]

 --- Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org> wrote: > Paul Smith
wrote:
> >  --- Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org> wrote: > Juan Jose
> ...
> >>we will also deprecate documenDTD in favor of 
> >>xhtml2 for source (and faq+howto will use xhtml2 inside also).
> > 
> > This worries me.  I find the ease of writing into document-v12.DTD
> a
> > very positive factor, and one of the main reasons I'm continuing to
> use
> > Forrest.  (I'm only just beginning on the path to XML
> enlightenment)
> 
> XHTML2 is very very similar.
> document-v20.DTD is even more similar to it.
> 
> > If you do decide to deprecate it, I will continue to use it anyway,
> > presumably I can do this by just keeping hold of the necessary DTD
> and
> > XSLT files...
> 
> I talk about deprecation as Java does. IOW, we will not recomend to
> use 
> it, and it won't evolve further, but it will still remain there for a
> 
> loooong time.
> 
> But I'm sure that you will like XHTML2 anyway.

I'll take your word for it :)  It's only tiny changes as you say, but
for some reason I prefer <note> over <p class="note">...


=====
-----------------------------------------------------
Paul Smith
Postgraduate Student
Department of Mathematics
School of Engineering, Computer Science,
                            and Mathematics
University of Exeter

________________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" 
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Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>]

Paul Smith wrote:
>  --- Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org> wrote: > Juan Jose
...
>>we will also deprecate documenDTD in favor of 
>>xhtml2 for source (and faq+howto will use xhtml2 inside also).
> 
> This worries me.  I find the ease of writing into document-v12.DTD a
> very positive factor, and one of the main reasons I'm continuing to use
> Forrest.  (I'm only just beginning on the path to XML enlightenment)

XHTML2 is very very similar.
document-v20.DTD is even more similar to it.

> If you do decide to deprecate it, I will continue to use it anyway,
> presumably I can do this by just keeping hold of the necessary DTD and
> XSLT files...

I talk about deprecation as Java does. IOW, we will not recomend to use 
it, and it won't evolve further, but it will still remain there for a 
loooong time.

But I'm sure that you will like XHTML2 anyway.

DocumentDTD
------------

<document>
   <header>
     <title>Welcome to Forrest</title>
   </header>
   <body>
     <section>
       <title>Introduction</title>
       <p>Forrest is an XML standards-oriented project documentation
         <strong>framework</strong>
         based on Apache Cocoon, providing XSLT stylesheets and schemas,
         images
         and other resources. Forrest uses these to render the XML source
         content into a website via command-line, robot, or a dynamic web
         application.
       </p>
     </section>
   </body>
</document>


XHTML2 http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/
----------

<html>
   <head>
     <title>Welcome to Forrest</title>
   </head>
   <body>
     <section>
       <h>Introduction</h>
       <p>Forrest is an XML standards-oriented project documentation
         <b>framework</b>
         based on Apache Cocoon, providing XSLT stylesheets and schemas,
         images
         and other resources. Forrest uses these to render the XML source
         content into a website via command-line, robot, or a dynamic web
         application.
       </p>
     </section>
   </body>
</html>


-- 
Nicola Ken Barozzi                   nicolaken@apache.org
             - verba volant, scripta manent -
    (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[Juan Jose Pablos <ch...@che-che.com>]

Paul,
Paul Smith wrote:
> 
> 
> This worries me.  I find the ease of writing into document-v12.DTD a
> very positive factor, and one of the main reasons I'm continuing to use
> Forrest.  (I'm only just beginning on the path to XML enlightenment)
> 
> If you do decide to deprecate it, I will continue to use it anyway,
> presumably I can do this by just keeping hold of the necessary DTD and
> XSLT files...



I think that we deprecate stuff when no one worries or cares about that 
stuff, so if there is people that care, I do not see a reason of why it 
needs to be deprecated, people have the choice to use xhtml or document 
  if they want.


Cheers,
Cheche

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[Paul Smith <go...@yahoo.com>]

 --- Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org> wrote: > Juan Jose
Pablos wrote:
> > Paul,
> > 
> > I think that the idea is this one:
> > 
> > 
> > Source                Intermediate      output
> > 
> > document|faq|howto -----> xhtml -----> html|pdf|wml|xhtml 1.0
> > wiki
> > xhtml ------------------> xhtml -----> html|pdf|wml|xhtml 1.0
> > 
> > 
> > Please correct me if I am wrong...
> 
> Correct... except that we will also deprecate documenDTD in favor of 
> xhtml2 for source (and faq+howto will use xhtml2 inside also).

This worries me.  I find the ease of writing into document-v12.DTD a
very positive factor, and one of the main reasons I'm continuing to use
Forrest.  (I'm only just beginning on the path to XML enlightenment)

If you do decide to deprecate it, I will continue to use it anyway,
presumably I can do this by just keeping hold of the necessary DTD and
XSLT files...

=====
-----------------------------------------------------
Paul Smith
Postgraduate Student
Department of Mathematics
School of Engineering, Computer Science,
                            and Mathematics
University of Exeter

________________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" 
your friends today! Download Messenger Now 
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>]

Juan Jose Pablos wrote:
> Paul,
> 
> I think that the idea is this one:
> 
> 
> Source                Intermediate      output
> 
> document|faq|howto -----> xhtml -----> html|pdf|wml|xhtml 1.0
> wiki
> xhtml ------------------> xhtml -----> html|pdf|wml|xhtml 1.0
> 
> 
> Please correct me if I am wrong...

Correct... except that we will also deprecate documenDTD in favor of 
xhtml2 for source (and faq+howto will use xhtml2 inside also).

-- 
Nicola Ken Barozzi                   nicolaken@apache.org
             - verba volant, scripta manent -
    (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>]

I have moved this good stuff out to another existing thread:
Re: [PLAN] Move to XHTML2 in V0.7
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=forrest-dev&m=107413927823257

Please follow it there and keep Proposal threads on-topic.

--David

Paul Smith wrote:
<snip/>
> 
> In this resepct, I think XHTML is a perfect candidate for intermediate
> file format.
> 
> PS I apologise if everyone thought this thread had been closed :)
> PPS I also apologise for this being quite a long post, I needed to put
> down everything I thought about onto paper so I can get it validated by
> you guys :)
> PPPS I'm using Forrest to revive some old tutorials to do with game
> programming that I wrote, the simplicity of writing in the document.dtd
> format and just hitting "forrest site" is fantastic - keep up the good work!
> 
> =====
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Paul Smith
> Postgraduate Student
> Department of Mathematics
> School of Engineering, Computer Science,
>                             and Mathematics
> University of Exeter

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>]

Paul Smith wrote:

<snip what="a superb summary of many of the advantages of XHTML as a 
intermediate format"/>

> In this resepct, I think XHTML is a perfect candidate for intermediate
> file format.
> 
> PS I apologise if everyone thought this thread had been closed :)

Well if someone didn't I think it was closed I'm sure your summary will 
  help alot - very thorough - thanks!

Ross

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[Paul Smith <go...@yahoo.com>]

 --- Juan Jose Pablos <ch...@che-che.com> wrote: > Paul,
> 
> I think that the idea is this one:
> 
> 
> Source 
>                 Intermediate	  output
> 
> document|faq|howto -----> xhtml -----> html|pdf|wml|xhtml 1.0
> wiki
> xhtml ------------------> xhtml -----> html|pdf|wml|xhtml 1.0
> 
> 
> Please correct me if I am wrong...
> 

That's exactly how I read it, so to ensure that valid
document|faq|howto documents are put in at the source end, we still
need document|faq|howto, DTDs, no?  What I'm saying is, if the source
format happens to be XML, we need the DTD for it, to ensure that a
valid document is presented to be transformed into xhtml.

If a valid document is at the source end, then the intermediate xhtml
should certainly be valid (unless the transform is broken) thus you'd
only need to validate at the intermediate stage as a sanity-check, i.e.
something only developers should really have to do.  Then, once we have
valid xhmtl in the intermedite stage, it can be transformed into
whatever.

The point of having an intermediate format, if I'm correct, is that say
there are X supported source formats and Y supported output formats,
you would need (X * Y) transforms to cover every possibility of
transforming from each of the X sources to each of the Y outputs.

By having an intermediate format, you need only (X + Y) transforms, X
transforms into xhtml, and Y transforms back out again.

In the example above, with an intermediate format you need the
following transformations

In:
document -> xhtml
faq -> xhtml
howto -> xhtml
wiki -> xhtml
xhtml -> xhtml (Not sure about this one :) )
Out:
xhtml -> html
xhtml -> pdf
xhtml -> wml
xhtml -> xhtml+css

For a total of 9 transforms.  However, without the intermediate format,
you would instead need:

document -> html
document -> pdf
document -> wml
document -> xhtml+css
faq -> html
faq -> pdf
faq -> wml
faq -> xhtml+css
howto -> html
howto -> pdf
howto -> wml
howto -> xhtml+css
wiki -> html
wiki -> pdf
wiki -> wml
wiki -> xhtml+css
xhtml -> html
xhtml -> pdf
xhtml -> wml
xhtml -> xhtml+css

For a total of 20 transforms.  Also, by having an intermediate format,
people can write output transforms that the input people might not have
thought about.  Take for example the work needed to add a new input
document doctype, say diary.

With no intermediate format, you have to write

diary -> html
diary -> pdf
.
.
.

Then later, somebody realises that VoiceML should be available as an
output, somebody then needs to write

diary -> VoiceML.

Noting that the output transform people might not know about the diary
doctype, and the person writing the diary doctype might know nothing
about XSLT!

However, with an intermediate format, you only need to write

diary -> xhtml

then when VoiceML gets added to the output list, it will automatically
be applicable to the diary doctype, with no communication between
inputters and outputters necessary.

If I've laid out the case for having an intermediate format correctly,
then there are 1 or 2 consequences of this.

1) There must only be 1 intermediate format.  More formats means
proportionally more output tranforms need to be written.
2) The intermediate file format must be able to represent any semantic
information (that could affect it's output*) present in the source
document (source->intermediate shouldn't be a 'lossy' transform)
3) The intermediate file format must have no knowledge of what source
document was used - the type of source document is used for the
source->intermediate transform, but once in intermediate form, the
output transforms must have a common base to work from.

* By this I mean that you might have an attribute for version number in
your source document, this does not need to be passed through to the
intermediate document, as it should be handled in the
source->intermediate transform

So, again, if I've got this all right, we need DTDs for all "Supported
by Forrest" source document types, and I sincerely hope that the
document-v?? format remains supported by forrest.  You only need a DTD
for the intermediate format to sanity-check your source->intermediate
transforms.

In this resepct, I think XHTML is a perfect candidate for intermediate
file format.

PS I apologise if everyone thought this thread had been closed :)
PPS I also apologise for this being quite a long post, I needed to put
down everything I thought about onto paper so I can get it validated by
you guys :)
PPPS I'm using Forrest to revive some old tutorials to do with game
programming that I wrote, the simplicity of writing in the document.dtd
format and just hitting "forrest site" is fantastic - keep up the good work!

=====
-----------------------------------------------------
Paul Smith
Postgraduate Student
Department of Mathematics
School of Engineering, Computer Science,
                            and Mathematics
University of Exeter

________________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" 
your friends today! Download Messenger Now 
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[Juan Jose Pablos <ch...@che-che.com>]

Paul,

I think that the idea is this one:


Source 
                Intermediate	  output

document|faq|howto -----> xhtml -----> html|pdf|wml|xhtml 1.0
wiki
xhtml ------------------> xhtml -----> html|pdf|wml|xhtml 1.0


Please correct me if I am wrong...

Cheers,
Cheche
Paul Smith wrote:
>>>Also, once we switch to XHTML2, will we be able to use the W3C's
>>
>>URI?
>>
>>Well, i am not sure what Forrest's plan is for XHTML2.
>>I read on this list that we are not going to offer everything
>>that XHTML2 allows. So maybe we still need "Forrest DTDs".
>>
>>--David
> 
> 
> If I've been reading the whole XHTML discussion properly, XHTML is only
> going to be used an an intermediate format.  Thus, it will still be
> possible, (and if possible I will be doing so) to write documents
> according to the (document|faq|howto)-v??.dtd, have Forrest transform
> that into XHTML, and then into whatever output (PDF, various skins
> etc.)
> 
> If that is the case, I'll still be needing to edit files with the
> document-v12.dtd, so I still need to know how to add that to my
> system's catalog.
> 

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[Paul Smith <go...@yahoo.com>]

> > Also, once we switch to XHTML2, will we be able to use the W3C's
> URI?
> 
> Well, i am not sure what Forrest's plan is for XHTML2.
> I read on this list that we are not going to offer everything
> that XHTML2 allows. So maybe we still need "Forrest DTDs".
> 
> --David

If I've been reading the whole XHTML discussion properly, XHTML is only
going to be used an an intermediate format.  Thus, it will still be
possible, (and if possible I will be doing so) to write documents
according to the (document|faq|howto)-v??.dtd, have Forrest transform
that into XHTML, and then into whatever output (PDF, various skins
etc.)

If that is the case, I'll still be needing to edit files with the
document-v12.dtd, so I still need to know how to add that to my
system's catalog.

=====
-----------------------------------------------------
Paul Smith
Postgraduate Student
Department of Mathematics
School of Engineering, Computer Science,
                            and Mathematics
University of Exeter

________________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" 
your friends today! Download Messenger Now 
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>]

Marshall Roch wrote:
> David Crossley wrote:
> > The solution
> > ------------
> > Place the document-v* DTDs and supporting files on the Forrest website
> > and keep them up-to-date with Forrest CVS.
> 
> Seems like an awfully lot of work for a very small gain.

:-) That is probably why we have left it for so long.

Actually the "effort" is really only caused by needing to
manage everything via CVS and needing to automate updates.
The former is a *must*, the latter we can find a workaround.

> You've convinced me that it's not worth the effort to get
> the DTDs online. See below.

It is worth the effort. We get way too many questions from users.

> > Add an HTML page to explain that there are better solutions and that
> > this is only a fall-back solution.
> 
> You mention that most XML tools can use the catalog resolver.  I assume 
> those are just Java tools like Eclipse and JEdit, and that other XML 
> tools have their own built-in catalog resolvers.

That is correct. Non-Java tools such as "Open SP" (onsgmls)
and "xmlvalid" and "XMetaL", have their own catalog resolvers.
All Java tools should be able to use xml-commons-resolver.

> If this is the case, putting up documentation about how to configure the 
> most common editors to work with Forrest would be all that's needed to 
> make me happy.  The only reason it's a problem for me is because I don't 
> know how to set up the catalog resolver in Eclipse.

Yes, i thought about that. However it is not really Forrest's job.
We could document it at Apache XML Commons. Anyway, i agree we need
something. I will set up a doc somewhere and ask people for their
config tips.

> Also, once we switch to XHTML2, will we be able to use the W3C's URI?

Well, i am not sure what Forrest's plan is for XHTML2.
I read on this list that we are not going to offer everything
that XHTML2 allows. So maybe we still need "Forrest DTDs".

--David

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[Marshall Roch <ma...@exclupen.com>]

David Crossley wrote:
> The solution
> ------------
> Place the document-v* DTDs and supporting files on the Forrest website
> and keep them up-to-date with Forrest CVS.

Seems like an awfully lot of work for a very small gain.  You've 
convinced me that it's not worth the effort to get the DTDs online.  See 
below.

> Add an HTML page to explain that there are better solutions and that
> this is only a fall-back solution.

You mention that most XML tools can use the catalog resolver.  I assume 
those are just Java tools like Eclipse and JEdit, and that other XML 
tools have their own built-in catalog resolvers.

If this is the case, putting up documentation about how to configure the 
most common editors to work with Forrest would be all that's needed to 
make me happy.  The only reason it's a problem for me is because I don't 
know how to set up the catalog resolver in Eclipse.

Also, once we switch to XHTML2, will we be able to use the W3C's URI?

--
Marshall Roch

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>]

Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> David Crossley wrote:
> ...
> > 2) The Forrest build system is complex. It would be good to automate
> > the publishing of DTD versions, but that may not be possible.
> 
> Could you please explain a bit more?

I was mainly hinting that it might need to be a manual task.

> If it's just about placing the 
> schema dir, or some of those dirs, in a predefined place,
> it can be done quite easily.

It is only the /dtd/ and /entity/ dirs. These might also need
to be re-arranged in xml-forrest CVS so that dumb clients can
find all the bits properly.

> > 3) The Forrest website is built using the "stable" version of
> > Forrest (currently v0.5.1). So how will DTDs from the current
> > CVS (v0.6-dev) get into the website CVS [3]? Manual copy? See 4).
> 
> Aaah, so you want to publish them on the site CVS (I was thinking of 
> pushing them to the site, but you are right)...

I am just trying to meet the requirement that all Apache website
content needs to be managed in the project's website CVS.

We also need to get any stable DTD stuff that is still in 0.6-dev
out to the website.

> > 4) If some committer changes the DTDs in CVS then they will be
> > out-of-sync. Will committers remember to do the manual copy? See 3).
> 
> I can check and make sure that the build system tells the committer to 
> do so, or a script that checks every night for consistency can be done.

Either one would be good.

--David

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>]

Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> David Crossley wrote:
> ...
> > 2) The Forrest build system is complex. It would be good to automate
> > the publishing of DTD versions, but that may not be possible.
> 
> Could you please explain a bit more?

I was mainly hinting that it might need to be a manual task.

> If it's just about placing the 
> schema dir, or some of those dirs, in a predefined place,
> it can be done quite easily.

It is only the /dtd/ and /entity/ dirs. These might also need
to be re-arranged in xml-forrest CVS so that dumb clients can
find all the bits properly.

> > 3) The Forrest website is built using the "stable" version of
> > Forrest (currently v0.5.1). So how will DTDs from the current
> > CVS (v0.6-dev) get into the website CVS [3]? Manual copy? See 4).
> 
> Aaah, so you want to publish them on the site CVS (I was thinking of 
> pushing them to the site, but you are right)...

I am just trying to meet the requirement that all Apache website
content needs to be managed in the project's website CVS.

We also need to get any stable DTD stuff that is still in 0.6-dev
out to the website.

> > 4) If some committer changes the DTDs in CVS then they will be
> > out-of-sync. Will committers remember to do the manual copy? See 3).
> 
> I can check and make sure that the build system tells the committer to 
> do so, or a script that checks every night for consistency can be done.

Either one would be good.

--David

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>]

David Crossley wrote:
...
> 2) The Forrest build system is complex. It would be good to automate
> the publishing of DTD versions, but that may not be possible.

Could you please explain a bit more? If it's just about placing the 
schema dir, or some of those dirs, in a predefined place, it can be done 
quite easily.

> 3) The Forrest website is built using the "stable" version of
> Forrest (currently v0.5.1). So how will DTDs from the current
> CVS (v0.6-dev) get into the website CVS [3]? Manual copy? See 4).

Aaah, so you want to publish them on the site CVS (I was thinking of 
pushing them to the site, but you are right)...

> 4) If some committer changes the DTDs in CVS then they will be
> out-of-sync. Will committers remember to do the manual copy? See 3).

I can check and make sure that the build system tells the committer to 
do so, or a script that checks every night for consistency can be done.

-- 
Nicola Ken Barozzi                   nicolaken@apache.org
             - verba volant, scripta manent -
    (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>]

David Crossley wrote:
...
> 2) The Forrest build system is complex. It would be good to automate
> the publishing of DTD versions, but that may not be possible.

Could you please explain a bit more? If it's just about placing the 
schema dir, or some of those dirs, in a predefined place, it can be done 
quite easily.

> 3) The Forrest website is built using the "stable" version of
> Forrest (currently v0.5.1). So how will DTDs from the current
> CVS (v0.6-dev) get into the website CVS [3]? Manual copy? See 4).

Aaah, so you want to publish them on the site CVS (I was thinking of 
pushing them to the site, but you are right)...

> 4) If some committer changes the DTDs in CVS then they will be
> out-of-sync. Will committers remember to do the manual copy? See 3).

I can check and make sure that the build system tells the committer to 
do so, or a script that checks every night for consistency can be done.

-- 
Nicola Ken Barozzi                   nicolaken@apache.org
             - verba volant, scripta manent -
    (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>]

Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> David Crossley wrote:
> > Dave Brondsema wrote:
> >> David Crossley wrote:
> >>
> >>> 6) What will be the URLs for the DTDs?
> >>> http://xml.apache.org/forrest/dtd/...
> >>> We presume that Forrest will not be a top-level project soon.
> >>
> >> The forrest docs and forrest seed site docs (and likely many other
> >> projects' docs) have doctype lines as follows:
> >>
> >> <!DOCTYPE document PUBLIC "-//APACHE//DTD Documentation V1.2//EN"
> >> "http://apache.org/forrest/dtd/document-v12.dtd">
> >>
> >> The url is apache.org, not xml.apache.org
> >
> > The Forrest project only has control of the xml.apache.org/forrest/
> > space. So it must be there. All material must be in a project's
> > website CVS and we do not have access to the top-level "site" CVS.
> 
> put these two lines in a .htaccess file in site/forrest
> 
<snip/>

Thanks for the suggestion. However there is still the issue
that we do not have a site/forrest/ directory and we do not
have access to the "site" CVS to manage the .htaccess file.

Can you, or someone else who has such powers, do it for us
when the time comes?

If we go ahead with the online DTDs proposal, then we should
still put the DTDs at xml.apache.org/forrest/dtd/ and use
the .htaccess trick to solve the problem of the incorrect
apache.org/forrest/ URLs.

> --
> Stefano, kind of worried that people don't know basic httpd skills

Er, no need for sarcasm. Many thanks for the contribution.

--David

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>]

Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> David Crossley wrote:
> > Dave Brondsema wrote:
> >> David Crossley wrote:
> >>
> >>> 6) What will be the URLs for the DTDs?
> >>> http://xml.apache.org/forrest/dtd/...
> >>> We presume that Forrest will not be a top-level project soon.
> >>
> >> The forrest docs and forrest seed site docs (and likely many other
> >> projects' docs) have doctype lines as follows:
> >>
> >> <!DOCTYPE document PUBLIC "-//APACHE//DTD Documentation V1.2//EN"
> >> "http://apache.org/forrest/dtd/document-v12.dtd">
> >>
> >> The url is apache.org, not xml.apache.org
> >
> > The Forrest project only has control of the xml.apache.org/forrest/
> > space. So it must be there. All material must be in a project's
> > website CVS and we do not have access to the top-level "site" CVS.
> 
> put these two lines in a .htaccess file in site/forrest
> 
<snip/>

Thanks for the suggestion. However there is still the issue
that we do not have a site/forrest/ directory and we do not
have access to the "site" CVS to manage the .htaccess file.

Can you, or someone else who has such powers, do it for us
when the time comes?

If we go ahead with the online DTDs proposal, then we should
still put the DTDs at xml.apache.org/forrest/dtd/ and use
the .htaccess trick to solve the problem of the incorrect
apache.org/forrest/ URLs.

> --
> Stefano, kind of worried that people don't know basic httpd skills

Er, no need for sarcasm. Many thanks for the contribution.

--David

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>]

On 15 Jan 2004, at 02:48, David Crossley wrote:

> Dave Brondsema wrote:
>> David Crossley wrote:
>>
>>> 6) What will be the URLs for the DTDs?
>>> http://xml.apache.org/forrest/dtd/...
>>> We presume that Forrest will not be a top-level project soon.
>>
>> The forrest docs and forrest seed site docs (and likely many other
>> projects' docs) have doctype lines as follows:
>>
>> <!DOCTYPE document PUBLIC "-//APACHE//DTD Documentation V1.2//EN"
>> "http://apache.org/forrest/dtd/document-v12.dtd">
>>
>> The url is apache.org, not xml.apache.org
>
> The Forrest project only has control of the xml.apache.org/forrest/
> space. So it must be there. All material must be in a project's
> website CVS and we do not have access to the top-level "site" CVS.

put these two lines in a .htaccess file in site/forrest

RewriteEngine on
RewriteRule ^(.*)$ http://xml.apache.org/forrest/$1 [R]

and voila' and you can even move forrest around in the future without 
breaking the contracts.

--
Stefano, kind of worried that people don't know basic httpd skills

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>]

Dave Brondsema wrote:
> David Crossley wrote:
> 
> > 6) What will be the URLs for the DTDs?
> > http://xml.apache.org/forrest/dtd/...
> > We presume that Forrest will not be a top-level project soon.
> 
> The forrest docs and forrest seed site docs (and likely many other
> projects' docs) have doctype lines as follows:
> 
> <!DOCTYPE document PUBLIC "-//APACHE//DTD Documentation V1.2//EN"
> "http://apache.org/forrest/dtd/document-v12.dtd">
> 
> The url is apache.org, not xml.apache.org

The Forrest project only has control of the xml.apache.org/forrest/
space. So it must be there. All material must be in a project's
website CVS and we do not have access to the top-level "site" CVS.

> If we do post the dtds, everyone will have to change these lines anyway to
> get it to work.  We probably should change the url in our documents, but
> that's not going to help anyone now.

Drat. I was concerned about that too, but thought that it was only
in the un-released 0.6-dev version. However it is in the released
0.5 version too.

I gather that the reason for recently adding those System Identifiers
as URIs was because there was one major tool that could *only* use
System Identifiers to do the Catalog mapping. These were deliberately
URIs that would not resolve to any actual resource (like a namespace).
Now that change has come back to bite us.

Are there suggestions from anyone? The only thing that i can suggest
is that we ask infrastructure@ to give Forrest committers access to
the top-level site CVS and put the DTDs there. The alternative is
that we remain with no online DTDs and rely on documentation.

--David

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[Dave Brondsema <da...@brondsema.net>]

On Tue, 14 Jan 2004, David Crossley wrote:

> 6) What will be the URLs for the DTDs?
> http://xml.apache.org/forrest/dtd/...
> We presume that Forrest will not be a top-level project soon.
>

The forrest docs and forrest seed site docs (and likely many other
projects' docs) have doctype lines as follows:

<!DOCTYPE document PUBLIC "-//APACHE//DTD Documentation V1.2//EN"
"http://apache.org/forrest/dtd/document-v12.dtd">

The url is apache.org, not xml.apache.org

If we do post the dtds, everyone will have to change these lines anyway to
get it to work.  We probably should change the url in our documents, but
that's not going to help anyone now.


-- 
Dave Brondsema
dave@brondsema.net
http://www.brondsema.net - personal
http://www.splike.com - programming
http://csx.calvin.edu - Calvin club

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>]

On Jan 14, 2004, at 11:46 AM, David Crossley wrote:

> David Crossley wrote:
>>
>> 7) Does the Apache webserver deliver the supporting files using
>> the appropriate Content-Type? Is that "text/plain"? Does it matter?
>> We have *.dtd and *.mod and *.pen and *.ent extensions.
>
> This is what the webserver reports:
>
> *.dtd ... Content-Type: application/xml-dtd
>
> *.mod *.pen ... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Dunnow, http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc3023.html indicates otherwise for 
the .mod en .pen in this case:

The media type application/xml-dtd SHOULD be used for "external DTD 
subsets" or "external parameter entities".

How do we easily find out whether rfc 3023 has any official status - it 
appears on the standards track.

</Steven>
-- 
Steven Noels                            http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML            An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at            http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org                stevenn at apache.org

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>]

On Jan 14, 2004, at 11:46 AM, David Crossley wrote:

> David Crossley wrote:
>>
>> 7) Does the Apache webserver deliver the supporting files using
>> the appropriate Content-Type? Is that "text/plain"? Does it matter?
>> We have *.dtd and *.mod and *.pen and *.ent extensions.
>
> This is what the webserver reports:
>
> *.dtd ... Content-Type: application/xml-dtd
>
> *.mod *.pen ... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Dunnow, http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc3023.html indicates otherwise for 
the .mod en .pen in this case:

The media type application/xml-dtd SHOULD be used for "external DTD 
subsets" or "external parameter entities".

How do we easily find out whether rfc 3023 has any official status - it 
appears on the standards track.

</Steven>
-- 
Steven Noels                            http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML            An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at            http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org                stevenn at apache.org

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>]

David Crossley wrote:
> 
> 7) Does the Apache webserver deliver the supporting files using
> the appropriate Content-Type? Is that "text/plain"? Does it matter?
> We have *.dtd and *.mod and *.pen and *.ent extensions.

This is what the webserver reports:

*.dtd ... Content-Type: application/xml-dtd

*.mod *.pen ... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Are those okay?

--David

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>]

David Crossley wrote:
> 
> 7) Does the Apache webserver deliver the supporting files using
> the appropriate Content-Type? Is that "text/plain"? Does it matter?
> We have *.dtd and *.mod and *.pen and *.ent extensions.

This is what the webserver reports:

*.dtd ... Content-Type: application/xml-dtd

*.mod *.pen ... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Are those okay?

--David

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>]

Paul Smith wrote:
<snip/>
> 
> There alwasy the possibility that users aren't using a Java tool for
> XML editing, and so can't use the .jar for editing.  For instance, on
> my Fedora Core 1 system, there is a /etc/xml/catalog file which is used
> by default by most non-java XML editors.
> 
> Instructions on how to add the catalog supplied by Forrest to this
> system-wide catalog would be most welcome - the catalog comes as-is
> setup for Docbook, Scrollkeeper and XHTML.  If users had instructions
> on how to set up this catalog properly, that migt prevent some of the
> questions.
> 
> Just an option to save your bandwidth :)

Good suggestion Paul. It sounds like we will have an explanatory doc
at Forrest, so we will add such a hint.

Add the following line to your /etc/xml/catalog
If your system uses XML Catalog, then use:
------
<nextCatalog
catalog="/usr/local/cvs/xml-forrest/src/core/context/resources/schema/catalog.xcat"/>
------
If your system uses the older TR 9401 Catalog, then use:
------
CATALOG
"/usr/local/cvs/xml-forrest/src/core/context/resources/schema/catalog"
------

--David

Re: [Proposal] add DTDs to Apache website

[Paul Smith <go...@yahoo.com>]

 --- David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au> wrote: > The problem
> -----------
> It seems that some tools still do not use a Catalog Entity Resolver
> [1]
> to locate local copies of DTDs. Hence these tools break, because
> there
> are not actual DTDs on the website. This is limiting the uptake of
> the Apache Document DTDs and drawing lots of user questions.
> 
> Some background
> ---------------
> Forrest and Cocoon both use the Catalog Entity Resolver and this
> works
> fine in all situations (command-line, webapp). Any sensible XML tool
> can utilise the xml-commons-resolver.jar, and the Catalog supplied by
> Forrest. Some other tools either don't bother to use it or the user
> has not bothered to configure it.

<snip what="Where to go from here" />

There alwasy the possibility that users aren't using a Java tool for
XML editing, and so can't use the .jar for editing.  For instance, on
my Fedora Core 1 system, there is a /etc/xml/catalog file which is used
by default by most non-java XML editors.

Instructions on how to add the catalog supplied by Forrest to this
system-wide catalog would be most welcome - the catalog comes as-is
setup for Docbook, Scrollkeeper and XHTML.  If users had instructions
on how to set up this catalog properly, that migt prevent some of the
questions.

Just an option to save your bandwidth :)

=====
-----------------------------------------------------
Paul Smith
Postgraduate Student
Department of Mathematics
School of Engineering, Computer Science,
                            and Mathematics
University of Exeter

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