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Posted to dev@httpd.apache.org by Steffen <in...@apachelounge.com> on 2007/08/19 18:11:53 UTC
Goodbye
I am stumped.
I am dismayed at the corporate bullying from (one member of) the ASF which I
assumed was a collaborative organization - not such a dangerous legal
entity.
The admonishment not to use the feather or the "Apache" name resembles the
behavior of the very worst big-software corporations - and a reminder that
ASF is after all "... a corporation registered in Delaware, United
States..." - not a fellowship of web server administrators, developers, and
enthusiasts. It is a sober reminder to us all that caution is needed when
dealing with Apache software as with any other software, lest we forget
that httpd has become "their product" vs. "our web server".
Members of the Apache Lounge team has discussed the issues: We are closing
Apache Lounge.
For me it is not worth to spend anymore time on promoting Apache on Windows
and given free support.
Steffen
Re: Goodbye
Posted by Issac Goldstand <ma...@beamartyr.net>.
Jim Jagielski wrote:
> Steffen wrote:
>> The admonishment not to use the feather or the "Apache" name resembles the
>> behavior of the very worst big-software corporations - and a reminder that
>> ASF is after all "... a corporation registered in Delaware, United
>> States..." - not a fellowship of web server administrators, developers, and
>> enthusiasts. It is a sober reminder to us all that caution is needed when
>> dealing with Apache software as with any other software, lest we forget
>> that httpd has become "their product" vs. "our web server".
>>
>
> That is really unfair, I think... Notwithstanding the fact whether
> or not this issue could have been handled better, are you
> really suggesting that the ASF seeking to protect its name,
> reputation, brand and trademarks are somehow Not Good? The ASF
> and the user and developer community have worked long and hard
> in making the name Apache *mean something*. This reputation
> was hard yet well earned. The ASF exists to allow the projects
> to continue doing what they do, and doing it well, without having
> to worry about such troublesome but real world issues such as
> trademarks and things like that... The Apache brand carries a
> lot of weight and respect, and it would be a serious disservice
> to the users and developers to not protect that brand.
>
> No matter what you may be implying, the ASF does not control
> the Apache web server project (httpd) or any other project:
> the PMCs and the community do that. It is, and always will remain
> "our project" (our being the user and developer community).
>
I have to agree with Jim. While I don't see why the PR PMC shouldn't
license you to use the feather and Apache name if you ask nicely, I do
agree that the right to demand that the use be requested and
specifically licensed is perfectly legit. I do wish you'd reconsider
opening the Apache Lounge.
If you've really thought it through and are unwilling to re-open it
yourself, I'd like to help pick up the ball and continue to serve the
win32 community by opening another site to serve similar needs. Your
help in that (just helping getting me get something started around where
you left off) would be invaluable. I know this might be a touchy
subject - I don't want to mooch off of your previous success; I just
want to help the community. Let me know.
Issac
Re: Goodbye
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
Steffen wrote:
>
> There is a lot changing in the open-source world. I've seen a similar
> discussion with MySQL, although not as painful as the issues we have now.
> It seems that MySQL is now releasing "Enterprise" versions frequently and
> "Community" versions infrequently.
>
This is comparing apples and oranges. The ASF does not have
such distinctions in releases. It's either released, to one and
all, or not. There are no Enterprise or Community versions.
> I guess the Apache Foundation is now also starting to act more corporate and
> less community-oriented. Sad, but we live in a changing world and this
> legalistic-corporate-nasty trend is likely to continue for a while.
>
Nonesense (imo). And even if true, the ASF (the corporation)
exists to be that "legalistic-corporate" entity, so that the
projects and PMCs can be 100% community. The 2 issues that
seemed to cause this were (1) mis-use of the Apache feather,
which is "legalistic-corporate" admittedly and (2) the availability
of a non-released tarball with (afaict) no clear distinction that
the tarball was, in fact, not an official Apache release tarball,
which is admittedly community based (we want to protect users from
thinking they are using an official Apache release when they
are not).
> Steffen
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Jagielski" <ji...@jaguNET.com>
> To: <de...@httpd.apache.org>
> Cc: <in...@apachelounge.com>
> Sent: Sunday, 19 August, 2007 18:24
> Subject: Re: Goodbye
>
>
> > Steffen wrote:
> >>
> >> The admonishment not to use the feather or the "Apache" name resembles
> >> the
> >> behavior of the very worst big-software corporations - and a reminder
> >> that
> >> ASF is after all "... a corporation registered in Delaware, United
> >> States..." - not a fellowship of web server administrators, developers,
> >> and
> >> enthusiasts. It is a sober reminder to us all that caution is needed
> >> when
> >> dealing with Apache software as with any other software, lest we forget
> >> that httpd has become "their product" vs. "our web server".
> >>
> >
> > That is really unfair, I think... Notwithstanding the fact whether
> > or not this issue could have been handled better, are you
> > really suggesting that the ASF seeking to protect its name,
> > reputation, brand and trademarks are somehow Not Good? The ASF
> > and the user and developer community have worked long and hard
> > in making the name Apache *mean something*. This reputation
> > was hard yet well earned. The ASF exists to allow the projects
> > to continue doing what they do, and doing it well, without having
> > to worry about such troublesome but real world issues such as
> > trademarks and things like that... The Apache brand carries a
> > lot of weight and respect, and it would be a serious disservice
> > to the users and developers to not protect that brand.
> >
> > No matter what you may be implying, the ASF does not control
> > the Apache web server project (httpd) or any other project:
> > the PMCs and the community do that. It is, and always will remain
> > "our project" (our being the user and developer community).
> >
> > --
> > ===========================================================================
> > Jim Jagielski [|] jim@jaguNET.com [|] http://www.jaguNET.com/
> > "If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball."
> >
>
--
===========================================================================
Jim Jagielski [|] jim@jaguNET.com [|] http://www.jaguNET.com/
"If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball."
Re: Goodbye
Posted by Steffen <in...@apachelounge.com>.
There is a lot changing in the open-source world. I've seen a similar
discussion with MySQL, although not as painful as the issues we have now.
It seems that MySQL is now releasing "Enterprise" versions frequently and
"Community" versions infrequently.
I guess the Apache Foundation is now also starting to act more corporate and
less community-oriented. Sad, but we live in a changing world and this
legalistic-corporate-nasty trend is likely to continue for a while.
Steffen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Jagielski" <ji...@jaguNET.com>
To: <de...@httpd.apache.org>
Cc: <in...@apachelounge.com>
Sent: Sunday, 19 August, 2007 18:24
Subject: Re: Goodbye
> Steffen wrote:
>>
>> The admonishment not to use the feather or the "Apache" name resembles
>> the
>> behavior of the very worst big-software corporations - and a reminder
>> that
>> ASF is after all "... a corporation registered in Delaware, United
>> States..." - not a fellowship of web server administrators, developers,
>> and
>> enthusiasts. It is a sober reminder to us all that caution is needed
>> when
>> dealing with Apache software as with any other software, lest we forget
>> that httpd has become "their product" vs. "our web server".
>>
>
> That is really unfair, I think... Notwithstanding the fact whether
> or not this issue could have been handled better, are you
> really suggesting that the ASF seeking to protect its name,
> reputation, brand and trademarks are somehow Not Good? The ASF
> and the user and developer community have worked long and hard
> in making the name Apache *mean something*. This reputation
> was hard yet well earned. The ASF exists to allow the projects
> to continue doing what they do, and doing it well, without having
> to worry about such troublesome but real world issues such as
> trademarks and things like that... The Apache brand carries a
> lot of weight and respect, and it would be a serious disservice
> to the users and developers to not protect that brand.
>
> No matter what you may be implying, the ASF does not control
> the Apache web server project (httpd) or any other project:
> the PMCs and the community do that. It is, and always will remain
> "our project" (our being the user and developer community).
>
> --
> ===========================================================================
> Jim Jagielski [|] jim@jaguNET.com [|] http://www.jaguNET.com/
> "If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball."
>
Re: Goodbye
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
Steffen wrote:
>
> The admonishment not to use the feather or the "Apache" name resembles the
> behavior of the very worst big-software corporations - and a reminder that
> ASF is after all "... a corporation registered in Delaware, United
> States..." - not a fellowship of web server administrators, developers, and
> enthusiasts. It is a sober reminder to us all that caution is needed when
> dealing with Apache software as with any other software, lest we forget
> that httpd has become "their product" vs. "our web server".
>
That is really unfair, I think... Notwithstanding the fact whether
or not this issue could have been handled better, are you
really suggesting that the ASF seeking to protect its name,
reputation, brand and trademarks are somehow Not Good? The ASF
and the user and developer community have worked long and hard
in making the name Apache *mean something*. This reputation
was hard yet well earned. The ASF exists to allow the projects
to continue doing what they do, and doing it well, without having
to worry about such troublesome but real world issues such as
trademarks and things like that... The Apache brand carries a
lot of weight and respect, and it would be a serious disservice
to the users and developers to not protect that brand.
No matter what you may be implying, the ASF does not control
the Apache web server project (httpd) or any other project:
the PMCs and the community do that. It is, and always will remain
"our project" (our being the user and developer community).
--
===========================================================================
Jim Jagielski [|] jim@jaguNET.com [|] http://www.jaguNET.com/
"If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball."