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Posted to users@tapestry.apache.org by Daniel Jue <te...@gmail.com> on 2008/03/19 16:43:05 UTC
T5 Reasons for Using Tapestry / Comparison
I've made the stub page, and I've tried to keep it marketing-free and
of course honest. Smart project managers are going to ask when you
_would not_ want to use a particular framework, and potential users
should be able to get that kind of information from us easily.
Those of you with experience with other frameworks can add to it.
Feel free to change any part of it.
http://wiki.apache.org/tapestry/FrameworkComparisons?action=show
On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 9:06 AM, Stroeber, Andreas
<an...@siemens.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Why not just simply add a page to the Tapestry homepage with arguments for/against tapestry?
> Everyone who really is interested in informations and differences between * and Tapestry could have a look at and anyone who wants to ignore 'trolls' can do so and/or send the url.
>
> Even a link-list with articles about different frameworks would do. Everyone should be able to pick the best framework for his needs. And every troll perhaps answers questions that can be answered by or added to the page/link list.
>
> Last but not least every serious engineer will find arguments for/against tapestry by himself. If he hasn't enough arguments, he should call into question whether Tapestry IS the right framework for what he/she wants to do. A summary page or link-list to articles just could make search/things easier for him. But always he will have to decide himself.
>
> Grz
> Andi
>
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Re: T5 Reasons for Using Tapestry / Comparison
Posted by Daniel Jue <te...@gmail.com>.
Thanks for the input, I will change that item. I should have been more
careful in my wording.
What I meant by "used" and "not specifically required" is that many T5
tutorials use Maven to get you started (archetypes, screencasts, articles,
appfuse), but that you are not required to use Maven at all. To restate,
Maven has never been a requirement, only a convenient way to deal with
dependencies and builds. So it may be a development burden to stay up to
date if your particular build tool doesn't find that dependency of a
dependency of a dependency for you.
Thanks again!!
On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 12:06 PM, Adam Zimowski <zi...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> A little feedback:
>
> >When not to use Tapestry
> >If you are not allowed to use Maven. (Currently used by T5 for
> gathering library dependencies, although not specifically required)
>
> This is simply not true. It is possible to use Tap 5 without Maven at
> all. In fact, I'm running a major intranet application in production
> (50 concurrent users on avg) that is actively developed and
> maintained.
>
> The Maven restriction should be removed, because it is not.
>
> -adam
>
> On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 10:43 AM, Daniel Jue <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I've made the stub page, and I've tried to keep it marketing-free and
> > of course honest. Smart project managers are going to ask when you
> > _would not_ want to use a particular framework, and potential users
> > should be able to get that kind of information from us easily.
> >
> > Those of you with experience with other frameworks can add to it.
> >
> > Feel free to change any part of it.
> >
> > http://wiki.apache.org/tapestry/FrameworkComparisons?action=show
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 9:06 AM, Stroeber, Andreas
> > <an...@siemens.com> wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Why not just simply add a page to the Tapestry homepage with
> arguments for/against tapestry?
> > > Everyone who really is interested in informations and differences
> between * and Tapestry could have a look at and anyone who wants to ignore
> 'trolls' can do so and/or send the url.
> > >
> > > Even a link-list with articles about different frameworks would do.
> Everyone should be able to pick the best framework for his needs. And every
> troll perhaps answers questions that can be answered by or added to the
> page/link list.
> > >
> > > Last but not least every serious engineer will find arguments
> for/against tapestry by himself. If he hasn't enough arguments, he should
> call into question whether Tapestry IS the right framework for what he/she
> wants to do. A summary page or link-list to articles just could make
> search/things easier for him. But always he will have to decide himself.
> > >
> > > Grz
> > > Andi
> > >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
> >
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>
Re: T5 Reasons for Using Tapestry / Comparison
Posted by Adam Zimowski <zi...@gmail.com>.
A little feedback:
>When not to use Tapestry
>If you are not allowed to use Maven. (Currently used by T5 for
gathering library dependencies, although not specifically required)
This is simply not true. It is possible to use Tap 5 without Maven at
all. In fact, I'm running a major intranet application in production
(50 concurrent users on avg) that is actively developed and
maintained.
The Maven restriction should be removed, because it is not.
-adam
On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 10:43 AM, Daniel Jue <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I've made the stub page, and I've tried to keep it marketing-free and
> of course honest. Smart project managers are going to ask when you
> _would not_ want to use a particular framework, and potential users
> should be able to get that kind of information from us easily.
>
> Those of you with experience with other frameworks can add to it.
>
> Feel free to change any part of it.
>
> http://wiki.apache.org/tapestry/FrameworkComparisons?action=show
>
> On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 9:06 AM, Stroeber, Andreas
> <an...@siemens.com> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Why not just simply add a page to the Tapestry homepage with arguments for/against tapestry?
> > Everyone who really is interested in informations and differences between * and Tapestry could have a look at and anyone who wants to ignore 'trolls' can do so and/or send the url.
> >
> > Even a link-list with articles about different frameworks would do. Everyone should be able to pick the best framework for his needs. And every troll perhaps answers questions that can be answered by or added to the page/link list.
> >
> > Last but not least every serious engineer will find arguments for/against tapestry by himself. If he hasn't enough arguments, he should call into question whether Tapestry IS the right framework for what he/she wants to do. A summary page or link-list to articles just could make search/things easier for him. But always he will have to decide himself.
> >
> > Grz
> > Andi
> >
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>
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AW: AW: AW: T5 Reasons for Using Tapestry / Comparison
Posted by Martin Kersten <Ma...@mercateo.com>.
My English is quite a deal breaker. Please go ahead
and change it yourself. There also some comparism charts for
mostly commercial frameworks available. Check these out and
put something together.
Maybe Howard will feature those on the front page :-).
But maybe not, the flame war rate raises
if you compare yourself with others you know ;-)
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Francois Armand [mailto:farmand@linagora.com]
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 20. März 2008 10:57
An: Tapestry users
Betreff: Re: AW: AW: T5 Reasons for Using Tapestry / Comparison
Martin Kersten wrote:
> [... a lot of usefull comments...]
>
Thank you for all these in insight, your post was very interesting.
Do you want to complete the wiki here :
http://wiki.apache.org/tapestry/FrameworkComparisons ?
I can do it for you if you wish, but it will be almost a copy/paste of your comment, so if you want to add details or rewrite some parts...
Thank you !
--
Francois Armand
Etudes & Développements J2EE
Groupe Linagora - http://www.linagora.com
Tél.: +33 (0)1 58 18 68 28
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Re: AW: AW: T5 Reasons for Using Tapestry / Comparison
Posted by Francois Armand <fa...@linagora.com>.
Martin Kersten wrote:
> [... a lot of usefull comments...]
>
Thank you for all these in insight, your post was very interesting.
Do you want to complete the wiki here :
http://wiki.apache.org/tapestry/FrameworkComparisons ?
I can do it for you if you wish, but it will be almost a copy/paste of
your comment, so if you want to add details or rewrite some parts...
Thank you !
--
Francois Armand
Etudes & Développements J2EE
Groupe Linagora - http://www.linagora.com
Tél.: +33 (0)1 58 18 68 28
-----------
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AW: AW: T5 Reasons for Using Tapestry / Comparison
Posted by Martin Kersten <Ma...@mercateo.com>.
>>> Tapestry And GWT (Google Web Toolkit)
>>>
>>
>> Tapestry and GWT may be compared but it's a kind of different breed.
>> Integrating GWT in Tapestry works well and is a kind of quick use.
>>
>Well, so it worths to say that, explaining why they are different breed, and that they may work together.
All of the stuff you can read on the GWT site they say about GWT vs.
Web App Frameworks should be apply also to GWT vs. Tapestry. To get you started:
GWT and Tapestry have in common:
Both are Web Techs, Both have a client and server side,
GWT vs. Tapestry:
* GWT does not claim nor wants to be a full WebApp multipage framework
but a WebApp singlepage framework (GWT Apps lose state when page refreshes
or changes - beside using gears)
* GWT is mostly about describing JavaScript using Java whereas Tapestry is
about describing HTML using Java and Templates.
* GWT is all about AJAX (yes I know there are certain areas where no
AJAX is used at all for instance the view of client side information stores)
and Tapestry is about HTML with some AJAX if you like to.
-> Tapestry uses plain 'old' HTML Requests with some XHR where as GWT talks only
XHR (untrue if you are geek and use GWT to extrem of cause :-)).
* GWT uses a single servlet endpoint serving AJAX remote calls (XML, JSON)
and Tapestry has multi-pages with IOC (SOA) and can perform all three kinds
of AJAX requests (JSON, XML, HTML).
* GWT can be embedded within Tapestry pages but a Tapestry page can not be
embedded within GWT pages (beside IFrames). You will need your own JavaScript
to let a tapestry page talking to GWT and vise versa.
Best would be a matrix with all those features supported and unsupported or the
need of extension. For example writing Multipage applications easily (supported by
wicket and tap but not by GWT). Providing IOC (Supported Tap, Wicket with extension
(as far as I know) and not supported by GWT. Dependency Injection (Tap, Wicket but
not GWT) and so on.
Some of these statements are questionable and describe the best practice uses and
recommondations of the creator of the frameworks. For instance
you can crack up Tapestry to provide services for a GWT Application and deliver
HTML you can parse with your GWT pages and include it using setInnerHtml for
instance but this use is discorraged and can lead you on a troubling road.
--
Francois Armand
Etudes & Développements J2EE
Groupe Linagora - http://www.linagora.com
Tél.: +33 (0)1 58 18 68 28
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Re: AW: T5 Reasons for Using Tapestry / Comparison
Posted by Francois Armand <fa...@linagora.com>.
Martin Kersten wrote:
>> Tapestry And GWT (Google Web Toolkit)
>>
>
> Tapestry and GWT may be compared but it's a kind of different breed.
> Integrating GWT in Tapestry works well and is a kind of quick use.
>
Well, so it worths to say that, explaining why they are different breed,
and that they may work together.
> I plan to contribute such easy integration with a quick tutorial to
> integrate several GWT components into tapestry pages (including debugging
> and remote caps) in some weeks (when things cool down over here).
>
It would be very very cool. I never used GWT, but I will like to read
what Tapestry and GWT may bring one other to each other.
--
Francois Armand
Etudes & Développements J2EE
Groupe Linagora - http://www.linagora.com
Tél.: +33 (0)1 58 18 68 28
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AW: T5 Reasons for Using Tapestry / Comparison
Posted by Martin Kersten <Ma...@mercateo.com>.
>Tapestry And GWT (Google Web Toolkit)
Tapestry and GWT may be compared but it's a kind of different breed.
Integrating GWT in Tapestry works well and is a kind of quick use.
I plan to contribute such easy integration with a quick tutorial to
integrate several GWT components into tapestry pages (including debugging
and remote caps) in some weeks (when things cool down over here).
Cheers,
Martin (Kersten)
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Daniel Jue [mailto:teamphy6@gmail.com]
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 19. März 2008 16:43
An: Tapestry users
Betreff: T5 Reasons for Using Tapestry / Comparison
I've made the stub page, and I've tried to keep it marketing-free and of course honest. Smart project managers are going to ask when you _would not_ want to use a particular framework, and potential users should be able to get that kind of information from us easily.
Those of you with experience with other frameworks can add to it.
Feel free to change any part of it.
http://wiki.apache.org/tapestry/FrameworkComparisons?action=show
On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 9:06 AM, Stroeber, Andreas <an...@siemens.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Why not just simply add a page to the Tapestry homepage with arguments for/against tapestry?
> Everyone who really is interested in informations and differences between * and Tapestry could have a look at and anyone who wants to ignore 'trolls' can do so and/or send the url.
>
> Even a link-list with articles about different frameworks would do. Everyone should be able to pick the best framework for his needs. And every troll perhaps answers questions that can be answered by or added to the page/link list.
>
> Last but not least every serious engineer will find arguments for/against tapestry by himself. If he hasn't enough arguments, he should call into question whether Tapestry IS the right framework for what he/she wants to do. A summary page or link-list to articles just could make search/things easier for him. But always he will have to decide himself.
>
> Grz
> Andi
>
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Re: T5 Reasons for Using Tapestry / Comparison
Posted by Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com>.
In case I wasn't clear, I was referring to the "traditional" binary
downloads; they now include the Tapestry JARs, 3rd party JARs, and
source JARs (for the Tapestry code).
On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 9:36 AM, Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This is especially true for 5.0.11, where the dependencies of
> tapestry-ioc and tapestry-core are bundled with those libraries. so
> you can be up and running from the binary download very quickly
> (still, the Maven support for setting up the project template is very
> nice).
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 9:07 AM, Martin Kersten
> <Ma...@mercateo.com> wrote:
> > Tapestry works well without Maven. You dont need it.
> > Just drop all required libraries into the lib-path and you are done.
> > Also I would like to add that developing using tomcat also works well.
> >
> > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > Von: Daniel Jue [mailto:teamphy6@gmail.com]
> > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 19. März 2008 16:43
> > An: Tapestry users
> > Betreff: T5 Reasons for Using Tapestry / Comparison
> >
> >
> >
> > I've made the stub page, and I've tried to keep it marketing-free and of course honest. Smart project managers are going to ask when you _would not_ want to use a particular framework, and potential users should be able to get that kind of information from us easily.
> >
> > Those of you with experience with other frameworks can add to it.
> >
> > Feel free to change any part of it.
> >
> > http://wiki.apache.org/tapestry/FrameworkComparisons?action=show
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 9:06 AM, Stroeber, Andreas <an...@siemens.com> wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Why not just simply add a page to the Tapestry homepage with arguments for/against tapestry?
> > > Everyone who really is interested in informations and differences between * and Tapestry could have a look at and anyone who wants to ignore 'trolls' can do so and/or send the url.
> > >
> > > Even a link-list with articles about different frameworks would do. Everyone should be able to pick the best framework for his needs. And every troll perhaps answers questions that can be answered by or added to the page/link list.
> > >
> > > Last but not least every serious engineer will find arguments for/against tapestry by himself. If he hasn't enough arguments, he should call into question whether Tapestry IS the right framework for what he/she wants to do. A summary page or link-list to articles just could make search/things easier for him. But always he will have to decide himself.
> > >
> > > Grz
> > > Andi
> > >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Howard M. Lewis Ship
>
> Creator Apache Tapestry and Apache HiveMind
>
--
Howard M. Lewis Ship
Creator Apache Tapestry and Apache HiveMind
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Re: T5 Reasons for Using Tapestry / Comparison
Posted by Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com>.
This is especially true for 5.0.11, where the dependencies of
tapestry-ioc and tapestry-core are bundled with those libraries. so
you can be up and running from the binary download very quickly
(still, the Maven support for setting up the project template is very
nice).
On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 9:07 AM, Martin Kersten
<Ma...@mercateo.com> wrote:
> Tapestry works well without Maven. You dont need it.
> Just drop all required libraries into the lib-path and you are done.
> Also I would like to add that developing using tomcat also works well.
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Daniel Jue [mailto:teamphy6@gmail.com]
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 19. März 2008 16:43
> An: Tapestry users
> Betreff: T5 Reasons for Using Tapestry / Comparison
>
>
>
> I've made the stub page, and I've tried to keep it marketing-free and of course honest. Smart project managers are going to ask when you _would not_ want to use a particular framework, and potential users should be able to get that kind of information from us easily.
>
> Those of you with experience with other frameworks can add to it.
>
> Feel free to change any part of it.
>
> http://wiki.apache.org/tapestry/FrameworkComparisons?action=show
>
> On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 9:06 AM, Stroeber, Andreas <an...@siemens.com> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Why not just simply add a page to the Tapestry homepage with arguments for/against tapestry?
> > Everyone who really is interested in informations and differences between * and Tapestry could have a look at and anyone who wants to ignore 'trolls' can do so and/or send the url.
> >
> > Even a link-list with articles about different frameworks would do. Everyone should be able to pick the best framework for his needs. And every troll perhaps answers questions that can be answered by or added to the page/link list.
> >
> > Last but not least every serious engineer will find arguments for/against tapestry by himself. If he hasn't enough arguments, he should call into question whether Tapestry IS the right framework for what he/she wants to do. A summary page or link-list to articles just could make search/things easier for him. But always he will have to decide himself.
> >
> > Grz
> > Andi
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
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>
>
--
Howard M. Lewis Ship
Creator Apache Tapestry and Apache HiveMind
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AW: T5 Reasons for Using Tapestry / Comparison
Posted by Martin Kersten <Ma...@mercateo.com>.
Tapestry works well without Maven. You dont need it.
Just drop all required libraries into the lib-path and you are done.
Also I would like to add that developing using tomcat also works well.
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Daniel Jue [mailto:teamphy6@gmail.com]
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 19. März 2008 16:43
An: Tapestry users
Betreff: T5 Reasons for Using Tapestry / Comparison
I've made the stub page, and I've tried to keep it marketing-free and of course honest. Smart project managers are going to ask when you _would not_ want to use a particular framework, and potential users should be able to get that kind of information from us easily.
Those of you with experience with other frameworks can add to it.
Feel free to change any part of it.
http://wiki.apache.org/tapestry/FrameworkComparisons?action=show
On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 9:06 AM, Stroeber, Andreas <an...@siemens.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Why not just simply add a page to the Tapestry homepage with arguments for/against tapestry?
> Everyone who really is interested in informations and differences between * and Tapestry could have a look at and anyone who wants to ignore 'trolls' can do so and/or send the url.
>
> Even a link-list with articles about different frameworks would do. Everyone should be able to pick the best framework for his needs. And every troll perhaps answers questions that can be answered by or added to the page/link list.
>
> Last but not least every serious engineer will find arguments for/against tapestry by himself. If he hasn't enough arguments, he should call into question whether Tapestry IS the right framework for what he/she wants to do. A summary page or link-list to articles just could make search/things easier for him. But always he will have to decide himself.
>
> Grz
> Andi
>
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