Bugzilla information

[Meh <es...@yandex.ru>]

Hey I saw the bugzilla thread and thought I'd share some info;
 
There have been 3 attempts by Apache and OpenOffice members in the past couple years to do a dignified retirement before the code rot creates an unusable state for AOO and it becomes an embarrassment for the FOSS community.
 
The most recent was by David Hamilton, the previous PM. There was some serious discussion around this until some people decided that they'd rather go down with the ship due to long standing grudges against people at The Document Foundation. (Really petty imo)
 
The only reason AOO still exists is a community of people who ideologically believe that GPL/LO is bad and unrestrictive licenses are great. Nothing wrong with that, just very inefficient use of people's time.
 
There are 4 consumer friendly, actively developed open source office suites in the market today: Abiword/Gnumeric, Libreoffice, Calligra, and OnlyOffice.
 
OnlyOffice and Libreoffice are actively pursuing cloud integration with cloud hosting providers (nextcloud, file cloud (proprietary), Seafile, Pydio, etc.). OnlyOffice was opensourced in 2015, and was built using a HTML5 and JavaScript base. It's probably going to be the new popular kid on the block for open source office software.
 
The people who worked at Sun that still want to work on OOo now work on the Libreoffice code. LO code is literally years ahead in coding development, refactoring, rewriting, etc. You won't get them back.
 
Google Fuzz identified 33 bugs in LO code and suggested a quarter of them were security vulnerabilities. It's likely that AOO has these vulnerabilities too but they won't be fixed.
 
Most AOO volunteers arrive, see the state of the project and then drift off to projects with larger communities.
 
Large tech companies don't see a need to invest in desktop only technology, if anything there will be more use of MPL licensed LO or OnlyOffice (new OO) as companies like Collabora already have sales account managers and developers making it an option for companies and governments wanting to stay away from MS.
 
TDF donations go directly and solely to LO project management and volunteer recruitment. There's a recent blog post on their planet that talks about how they use donated funds to fix things volunteers never would find interesting. AOO never received funds directly, only to the Apache Project. Apache distributes to what they think is important, and right now that is big data. This is unfair but not illogical.
 
There hasn't been a significant release in AOO for a few years now, only minor bug fixes. Old people like it because it works the same way it has for the 6 years. However there are significant security risks to using AOO.
 
It's a great accomplishment of OOo that the brand has embedded into tech culture that people use the name when they think free office suite. But there won't be any new development on the project. There are too many new FOSS projects out there solving the same problems that AOO wants to solve, and the AOO demographic is getting smaller every month. Windows S will likely initiate a huge drop in CNET downloads and there will be a shift to LO over the next few years as they adopt more MS features.
 
If AOO wanted to survive as a project it would need to not be under the Apache Foundation, or there would need to be a company willing to spend money redoing everything what LO has done. But they won't, because even LO has competitors that do Base better (Kexi), Draw better (Inkscape), Impress better (Prezi, etc.).
 
TDF realises this and they've focused on writer, calc, and impress in the cloud. They'll likely be able to continue because of the community support, but I see OnlyOffice taking the FOSS crown. AOO? Maybe a Shuttleworth will bankroll developers? But why wouldn't he start from scratch with all the code rot? LO still hasn't finished translating the german comments and they've been working on it for years. i guess if you posted it all on Github devs might take notice?
 
I'm writing this as an appeal to take a mature response to the state of your project. You have huge branding power and millions of older people use your project. It's dangerous for these people to continue using your software when it's susceptible to exploits that won't be fixed anytime soon. Please inform them as to the state of your project instead of pretending everything is hunky dory. When LO releases their Google Fuzz code fixes hackers will compare the changes to your​ code and people will have identity theft, lose files, etc. Just so you guys can say: "oh, you suck LO, our ideology is better!" Meanwhile people are comparing OnlyOffice​ to Libreoffice when they look at FOSS office software.

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Re: Bugzilla information

[Peter Kovacs <pe...@posteo.de>]

I disagree. 
You have to make your point. 
Not to object will only strengthen other position because your view remains unheard. 

The best weapon against haters is love and dignity. 

Am 22. Mai 2017 18:32:39 MESZ schrieb esh1907 <es...@gmail.com>:
>The way to treat such people:
>1. Change our software license so any code sharing between us and them
>becomes impossible.
>2. Arrange legally for the brand name they so desire to be forever
>unavailable even if our project will be terminated in the future.
>3. Ignore them.
>
>On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 7:52 PM, Matthias Seidel
><matthias.seidel@hamburg.de
>> wrote:
>
>> I sometimes wonder if these people monitoring our mailing list don't
>> have a real life...
>>
>> I know such zealots for almost 30 years now.
>> They do not understand that people are free to do what they want and
>to
>> use what they want.
>>
>> Matthias
>>
>>
>> Am 21.05.2017 um 11:13 schrieb Marcus:
>> > Am 20.05.2017 um 21:35 schrieb Meh:
>> >> Hey I saw the bugzilla thread and thought I'd share some info;
>> >
>> > another attempt to tell a story that only specific people want to
>> > know. How boring.
>> >
>> > Marcus
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>

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Re: Bugzilla information

[esh1907 <es...@gmail.com>]

The way to treat such people:
1. Change our software license so any code sharing between us and them
becomes impossible.
2. Arrange legally for the brand name they so desire to be forever
unavailable even if our project will be terminated in the future.
3. Ignore them.

On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 7:52 PM, Matthias Seidel <matthias.seidel@hamburg.de
> wrote:

> I sometimes wonder if these people monitoring our mailing list don't
> have a real life...
>
> I know such zealots for almost 30 years now.
> They do not understand that people are free to do what they want and to
> use what they want.
>
> Matthias
>
>
> Am 21.05.2017 um 11:13 schrieb Marcus:
> > Am 20.05.2017 um 21:35 schrieb Meh:
> >> Hey I saw the bugzilla thread and thought I'd share some info;
> >
> > another attempt to tell a story that only specific people want to
> > know. How boring.
> >
> > Marcus
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

Re: Bugzilla information

[Matthias Seidel <ma...@hamburg.de>]

I sometimes wonder if these people monitoring our mailing list don't
have a real life...

I know such zealots for almost 30 years now.
They do not understand that people are free to do what they want and to
use what they want.

Matthias


Am 21.05.2017 um 11:13 schrieb Marcus:
> Am 20.05.2017 um 21:35 schrieb Meh:
>> Hey I saw the bugzilla thread and thought I'd share some info;
>
> another attempt to tell a story that only specific people want to
> know. How boring.
>
> Marcus
>
>
>

Re: Bugzilla information

[Marcus <ma...@wtnet.de>]

Am 20.05.2017 um 21:35 schrieb Meh:
> Hey I saw the bugzilla thread and thought I'd share some info;

another attempt to tell a story that only specific people want to know. 
How boring.

Marcus



-- 

Ciao

Marcus

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Re: Bugzilla information

[Peter Kovacs <pe...@posteo.de>]

The other offices are doing well. And competition is awesomely great. 
You have forgotten to mention some competitors that also put some awesome offers on the table.
I like the diversity this is causing. 

I have joined in September last year and do not plan to swap project soon.
I joined the project because I don't want to see open Office retire. I have some skill in doing what is required, and I will do this. 

So my position is total contrary to yours. And imho people are responsible for their own actions. See wannacry attack. 

I think you can learn from that if we would retire people will not stop use the software. So the only mature answer is to fix the bugs untill people are save. 

All the best
Peter

Am 20. Mai 2017 21:35:02 MESZ schrieb Meh <es...@yandex.ru>:
>Hey I saw the bugzilla thread and thought I'd share some info;
> 
>There have been 3 attempts by Apache and OpenOffice members in the past
>couple years to do a dignified retirement before the code rot creates
>an unusable state for AOO and it becomes an embarrassment for the FOSS
>community.
> 
>The most recent was by David Hamilton, the previous PM. There was some
>serious discussion around this until some people decided that they'd
>rather go down with the ship due to long standing grudges against
>people at The Document Foundation. (Really petty imo)
> 
>The only reason AOO still exists is a community of people who
>ideologically believe that GPL/LO is bad and unrestrictive licenses are
>great. Nothing wrong with that, just very inefficient use of people's
>time.
> 
>There are 4 consumer friendly, actively developed open source office
>suites in the market today: Abiword/Gnumeric, Libreoffice, Calligra,
>and OnlyOffice.
> 
>OnlyOffice and Libreoffice are actively pursuing cloud integration with
>cloud hosting providers (nextcloud, file cloud (proprietary), Seafile,
>Pydio, etc.). OnlyOffice was opensourced in 2015, and was built using a
>HTML5 and JavaScript base. It's probably going to be the new popular
>kid on the block for open source office software.
> 
>The people who worked at Sun that still want to work on OOo now work on
>the Libreoffice code. LO code is literally years ahead in coding
>development, refactoring, rewriting, etc. You won't get them back.
> 
>Google Fuzz identified 33 bugs in LO code and suggested a quarter of
>them were security vulnerabilities. It's likely that AOO has these
>vulnerabilities too but they won't be fixed.
> 
>Most AOO volunteers arrive, see the state of the project and then drift
>off to projects with larger communities.
> 
>Large tech companies don't see a need to invest in desktop only
>technology, if anything there will be more use of MPL licensed LO or
>OnlyOffice (new OO) as companies like Collabora already have sales
>account managers and developers making it an option for companies and
>governments wanting to stay away from MS.
> 
>TDF donations go directly and solely to LO project management and
>volunteer recruitment. There's a recent blog post on their planet that
>talks about how they use donated funds to fix things volunteers never
>would find interesting. AOO never received funds directly, only to the
>Apache Project. Apache distributes to what they think is important, and
>right now that is big data. This is unfair but not illogical.
> 
>There hasn't been a significant release in AOO for a few years now,
>only minor bug fixes. Old people like it because it works the same way
>it has for the 6 years. However there are significant security risks to
>using AOO.
> 
>It's a great accomplishment of OOo that the brand has embedded into
>tech culture that people use the name when they think free office
>suite. But there won't be any new development on the project. There are
>too many new FOSS projects out there solving the same problems that AOO
>wants to solve, and the AOO demographic is getting smaller every month.
>Windows S will likely initiate a huge drop in CNET downloads and there
>will be a shift to LO over the next few years as they adopt more MS
>features.
> 
>If AOO wanted to survive as a project it would need to not be under the
>Apache Foundation, or there would need to be a company willing to spend
>money redoing everything what LO has done. But they won't, because even
>LO has competitors that do Base better (Kexi), Draw better (Inkscape),
>Impress better (Prezi, etc.).
> 
>TDF realises this and they've focused on writer, calc, and impress in
>the cloud. They'll likely be able to continue because of the community
>support, but I see OnlyOffice taking the FOSS crown. AOO? Maybe a
>Shuttleworth will bankroll developers? But why wouldn't he start from
>scratch with all the code rot? LO still hasn't finished translating the
>german comments and they've been working on it for years. i guess if
>you posted it all on Github devs might take notice?
> 
>I'm writing this as an appeal to take a mature response to the state of
>your project. You have huge branding power and millions of older people
>use your project. It's dangerous for these people to continue using
>your software when it's susceptible to exploits that won't be fixed
>anytime soon. Please inform them as to the state of your project
>instead of pretending everything is hunky dory. When LO releases their
>Google Fuzz code fixes hackers will compare the changes to your​ code
>and people will have identity theft, lose files, etc. Just so you guys
>can say: "oh, you suck LO, our ideology is better!" Meanwhile people
>are comparing OnlyOffice​ to Libreoffice when they look at FOSS office
>software.
>
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Re: Bugzilla information

[Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>]

> From: Meh [mailto:esprit42@yandex.ru] 

> The only reason AOO still exists is a community of people who 
> ideologically believe that GPL/LO is bad and unrestrictive 
> licenses are great.

No, that is not correct.

Here at AOO are also people who do not agree with the TDF, which is not a question of licenses.
The people at OpenOffice.org once wanted an independent foundation, but the TSF is dependent on companies, exactly the same as OOo was dependent on Oracle or Sun.

And let us not overlook the basic truth:
LibreOffice is the fork, not AOO.


Jörg



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