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Posted to dev@subversion.apache.org by Ben Collins-Sussman <su...@red-bean.com> on 2006/04/16 01:53:57 UTC
Summer of Code
As I'm sure many of you have already seen, Google has just launched
"Summer of Code" for 2006. You can read about it on slashdot, or you
can visit the main SoC page here:
http://code.google.com/soc/
Last year, SoC was a huge success for the Subversion project: five of
our eight students completed their projects, and two of them even
became committers. The students gained some great experience (and
$4500 each for summer employment), and Subversion got a bunch of new
features (path-based access control in svnserve, Ruby bindings, Python
binding improvements, ...), as well as $500 per student.
Karl is on vacation right now, so Fitz and I are stepping in as our
project's contact points for SoC. (Convenient anyway, since SoC is
actually being run by our team at Google!) At the moment, SoC is busy
registering open source projects and mentors interested in hosting
students. In a few weeks, the webapp will allow students to enter
application proposals, and we'll get to look through them and choose
some small set.
As a developer community, we need to do two things in the next couple
of weeks:
1) Decide how many students we'd like to mentor.
Last year we mentored 8 students. The web form asks how many
we'd ideally like to have, and at some point Google will repsond
and tell us how many internships they're willing to allot us.
2) Come up with a list of project ideas for students.
Here's a link to last year's ideas page, which we'll need to
update:
http://subversion.tigris.org/project_tasks.html
Please send thoughts, ideas, feedback!
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Re: Summer of Code
Posted by Pierre THIERRY <no...@levallois.eu.org>.
Scribit Ben Collins-Sussman dies 15/04/2006 hora 18:53:
> 2) Come up with a list of project ideas for students.
As there is a SASL related issue for SoC, I'd like to know if it would
be interesting to also add Kerberos authentication.
Securely,
Nowhere man
--
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OpenPGP 0xD9D50D8A
Re: Summer of Code
Posted by David Anderson <da...@calixo.net>.
* Ben Collins-Sussman <su...@red-bean.com> [2006-04-15 18:53:57]:
> Last year, SoC was a huge success for the Subversion project: five of
> our eight students completed their projects, and two of them even
> became committers. The students gained some great experience (and
> $4500 each for summer employment), and Subversion got a bunch of new
> features (path-based access control in svnserve
Yay!
> 1) Decide how many students we'd like to mentor.
>
> Last year we mentored 8 students. The web form asks how many
> we'd ideally like to have, and at some point Google will repsond
> and tell us how many internships they're willing to allot us.
Recalling my experience of last year's SoC, mentoring 8 students was
handled quite gracefully by the dev list. Well, only about 5 of those
were active iirc, but things went quite smoothly then.
Therefore, I propose that we up that number a little, if we have a
sufficient number of tasks that can be done. Or at least, that we
don't reduce that number.
> 2) Come up with a list of project ideas for students.
>
> Here's a link to last year's ideas page, which we'll need to
> update:
>
> http://subversion.tigris.org/project_tasks.html
I think this year we should fork off a separate page for the SoC,
during the small time period where students are applying (or
considering it). That way, we can cut down on the number of "I want
to take on the Issue Management task for SoC!", and provide a little
direction on what data an application should include, as well as a
list of projects we don't want tackled during SoC ("But, WHY can't I
do merge tracking/SQL backends/distributed versionning this summer?").
If that makes sense, I'll create summer_of_code.html and start filling
it out.
As far as ideas for stuff to do go, a few of the current tasks should
still go on the list: SASL support for svnserve, Optional/compressed
text base storage, and maybe polishing of bindings
(eg. pythonificating the python bindings, that kind of thing). I'll
add those three for a start, and get thinking on more tasks.
- Dave.
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Re: Summer of Code
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <ju...@erenkrantz.com>.
On 4/15/06, Ben Collins-Sussman <su...@red-bean.com> wrote:
> 2) Come up with a list of project ideas for students.
>
> Here's a link to last year's ideas page, which we'll need to
> update:
>
> http://subversion.tigris.org/project_tasks.html
An SoC project I'd like to see is some load testing reports/analysis
of Subversion. Just how high is the bar? Are the bottlenecks where
we think they are? I don't care much about ra_svn performance - so
it's about mod_dav_svn.
I've just made a few commits to Apache flood that get it to work
against WebDAV. My thought is that you'd set up profiles of a variety
of users (checkouts, commits, browsers, etc.). You'd probably want to
use something like flood because libsvn_wc would be too much of a
bottleneck on the client side to get useful scalability tests.
We'd straddle a few tools here: flood, httpd, SVN. But, providing SVN
admins with a way to locally perform scalability tests locally seems
like a wortwhile endeavor. For Google's SoC purposes, I'm willing to
call this a Subversion project.
I'd be willing to mentor any folks interested in this. It's mostly
analysis/performance stuff - the output from this would be cool
graphs. If we're able to improve our code from it, all the better;
but that's not really realistic from a SoC perspective. -- justin
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Re: Summer of Code
Posted by mark benedetto king <mb...@lowlatency.com>.
On Mon, Apr 17, 2006 at 08:25:47PM +0200, Sigfred H?versen wrote:
> Garrett Rooney wrote:
> >On 4/15/06, Ben Collins-Sussman <su...@red-bean.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> 2) Come up with a list of project ideas for students.
> >>
> >> Here's a link to last year's ideas page, which we'll need to
> >> update:
> >>
> >> http://subversion.tigris.org/project_tasks.html
> >
> >
> >A few ideas:
> >
> >1) Add logging support to svnserve. This may also involve work in APR
> >to add a logging abstraction there.
>
> Very useful for trouble shooting. mbk@ is adding ssl capabilities to
> svnserve, and with this logging of some type is needed.
>
> /Sigfred
>
Indeed. I am especially concerned about this because SSL is notoriously
difficult to configure correctly.
--ben
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Re: Summer of Code
Posted by Sigfred Håversen <bs...@mumak.com>.
Garrett Rooney wrote:
> On 4/15/06, Ben Collins-Sussman <su...@red-bean.com> wrote:
>
>
>> 2) Come up with a list of project ideas for students.
>>
>> Here's a link to last year's ideas page, which we'll need to
>> update:
>>
>> http://subversion.tigris.org/project_tasks.html
>
>
> A few ideas:
>
> 1) Add logging support to svnserve. This may also involve work in APR
> to add a logging abstraction there.
Very useful for trouble shooting. mbk@ is adding ssl capabilities to
svnserve, and with this logging of some type is needed.
/Sigfred
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Re: Summer of Code
Posted by Garrett Rooney <ro...@electricjellyfish.net>.
On 4/17/06, Mark Phippard <ma...@softlanding.com> wrote:
> rooneg@gmail.com wrote on 04/17/2006 01:57:16 PM:
>
> > 2) Fix nonrecursive checkouts. This is a bigger project, suitable for
> > someone who's already got some svn experience, if we have any that are
> > still students anyway ;-)
>
> Does anyone know what happened to this idea that breser floated? It
> seemed well thought out to me.
>
> http://svn.haxx.se/dev/archive-2005-07/0398.shtml
IMO it's very well thought out, it's just that nobody ever implemented it.
-garrett
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Re: Summer of Code
Posted by "C. Michael Pilato" <cm...@collab.net>.
Mark Phippard wrote:
> rooneg@gmail.com wrote on 04/17/2006 01:57:16 PM:
>
>
>>2) Fix nonrecursive checkouts. This is a bigger project, suitable for
>>someone who's already got some svn experience, if we have any that are
>>still students anyway ;-)
>
>
> Does anyone know what happened to this idea that breser floated? It
> seemed well thought out to me.
>
> http://svn.haxx.se/dev/archive-2005-07/0398.shtml
My only complaint about the proposal is that there is a pretty cool (and I
think, useful) bit of functionality and CVS parity that we can get by just
going a step further. Instead of just a boolean excluded/included bit for
each entry, why not provide the ability to dictate the revision you'd like
to "stick" on for a given entry, and then allow SVN_INVALID_REVNUM (speaking
from an implementation perspective here, certainly not a UI one) mean "stick
this entry at a state of being excluded altogether"?
(For some reason, I thought this was already included in breser's proposal
... obviously I misremembered.)
--
C. Michael Pilato <cm...@collab.net>
CollabNet <> www.collab.net <> Distributed Development On Demand
Re: Summer of Code
Posted by Mark Phippard <ma...@softlanding.com>.
rooneg@gmail.com wrote on 04/17/2006 01:57:16 PM:
> 2) Fix nonrecursive checkouts. This is a bigger project, suitable for
> someone who's already got some svn experience, if we have any that are
> still students anyway ;-)
Does anyone know what happened to this idea that breser floated? It
seemed well thought out to me.
http://svn.haxx.se/dev/archive-2005-07/0398.shtml
Mark
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Re: Summer of Code
Posted by Garrett Rooney <ro...@electricjellyfish.net>.
On 4/15/06, Ben Collins-Sussman <su...@red-bean.com> wrote:
> 2) Come up with a list of project ideas for students.
>
> Here's a link to last year's ideas page, which we'll need to
> update:
>
> http://subversion.tigris.org/project_tasks.html
A few ideas:
1) Add logging support to svnserve. This may also involve work in APR
to add a logging abstraction there.
2) Fix nonrecursive checkouts. This is a bigger project, suitable for
someone who's already got some svn experience, if we have any that are
still students anyway ;-)
-garrett
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Re: Summer of Code
Posted by Branko Čibej <br...@xbc.nu>.
Peter Samuelson wrote:
> [eg]
>
>> How about adding the ability to "safely" shutdown svnserve. By
>> safely, I mean no chance of data loss or repository corruption.
>>
>
> Would it be sufficient to stop accepting new connections, finish
> whatever is in progress, then die? Without looking at the svnserve
> code in any detail, that sounds like a rather small project.
>
> If you want to be able to interrupt current transactions immediately,
> clean them up reliably, then die, that would be a lot less trivial.
>
Given that most of that support is already in svnserve now -- it was
part of the change that added native Windows service support, and it
involves simply closing the listening socket when an appropriate signal
is caught -- i'd estimate it as about two days' work to port it so using
POSIX signals.
-- Brane
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Re: Summer of Code
Posted by eg <eg...@gmail.com>.
Peter Samuelson wrote:
> [eg]
>> How about adding the ability to "safely" shutdown svnserve. By
>> safely, I mean no chance of data loss or repository corruption.
>
> Would it be sufficient to stop accepting new connections, finish
> whatever is in progress, then die? Without looking at the svnserve
> code in any detail, that sounds like a rather small project.
>
> If you want to be able to interrupt current transactions immediately,
> clean them up reliably, then die, that would be a lot less trivial.
Personally the former would be fine for "my" purposes. I don't know the
code / hence the scope either.
Some discussion occured in this thread, including others (Stefan King)
mention that ui clients might have a need which is broader than just the
service related stuff.
http://svn.haxx.se/dev/archive-2006-02/1449.shtml
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Re: Summer of Code
Posted by Peter Samuelson <pe...@p12n.org>.
[eg]
> How about adding the ability to "safely" shutdown svnserve. By
> safely, I mean no chance of data loss or repository corruption.
Would it be sufficient to stop accepting new connections, finish
whatever is in progress, then die? Without looking at the svnserve
code in any detail, that sounds like a rather small project.
If you want to be able to interrupt current transactions immediately,
clean them up reliably, then die, that would be a lot less trivial.
Re: Summer of Code
Posted by eg <eg...@gmail.com>.
Ben Collins-Sussman wrote:
> 2) Come up with a list of project ideas for students.
>
> Here's a link to last year's ideas page, which we'll need to
> update:
>
> http://subversion.tigris.org/project_tasks.html
>
> Please send thoughts, ideas, feedback!
How about adding the ability to "safely" shutdown svnserve. By safely, I
mean no chance of data loss or repository corruption.
I have the impression that shutting this down (whether it is a service
or regular process) just pulls the plug, whether or not transactions are
in progress and that this might cause a problem.
If my impression on this is incorrect, please ignore the above :-)
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Re: Summer of Code
Posted by Ben Collins-Sussman <su...@red-bean.com>.
> On 4/17/06, Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org> wrote:
> > And that means those mentors should register in the
> > webapp.
Actually, let me backtrack a bit: if you'd like to screen and rank
incoming applications from students, then I think you'll need to be
registered as a mentor in the webapp. If you're interested in that,
then definitely register yourself.
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Re: Summer of Code
Posted by Ben Collins-Sussman <su...@red-bean.com>.
On 4/17/06, Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org> wrote:
> That is not an ideal situation. It is MUCH more preferable to have
> some accountability here. And that means assigning *specific* mentors
> to each student. And that means those mentors should register in the
> webapp.
Accountability for what? Do you really envision that after a bunch of
us pouring through applications and choosing them, that somehow a
student is going to get ignored? That s/he is going to post to the
list for help and feedback, and get no reply?
If this were Subversion's first time in SoC, I think your worry might
be justified. Maybe. But we have empirical evidence disproving that.
But what we did last year worked swimmingly well, so why fix what
ain't broke?
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Re: Summer of Code
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
That is not an ideal situation. It is MUCH more preferable to have
some accountability here. And that means assigning *specific* mentors
to each student. And that means those mentors should register in the
webapp.
Cheers,
-g
On Sun, Apr 16, 2006 at 10:10:40PM -0500, Ben Collins-Sussman wrote:
> On 4/16/06, David Anderson <da...@calixo.net> wrote:
> > Ah, and another quick point...
> >
> > * Ben Collins-Sussman <su...@red-bean.com> [2006-04-15 18:53:57]:
> > > At the moment, SoC is busy registering open source projects and
> > > mentors interested in hosting students.
> >
> > How does this work within our project? Last year, mentoring was
> > fairly freeform, with the community and committers as a whole
> > providing mentoring. This worked very well for me, and I think we
> > should continue along those lines. However, is there something to do
> > this year to be officially "Mentor for the Subversion project" in the
> > eyes of the SoC program organizers?
>
> Most open source projects assign specific mentors to specific
> students. Our project just doesn't bother. Our whole community
> "mentors" our students, it's just how we work.
>
> So, if you look at the SoC webapp, only fitz and I are actually listed
> as 'mentors', but it doesn't really mean anything at all. There's no
> need to "sign up"... just mentor the students when they start posting
> to our list.
>
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>
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
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Re: Summer of Code
Posted by Ben Collins-Sussman <su...@red-bean.com>.
On 4/16/06, David Anderson <da...@calixo.net> wrote:
> Ah, and another quick point...
>
> * Ben Collins-Sussman <su...@red-bean.com> [2006-04-15 18:53:57]:
> > At the moment, SoC is busy registering open source projects and
> > mentors interested in hosting students.
>
> How does this work within our project? Last year, mentoring was
> fairly freeform, with the community and committers as a whole
> providing mentoring. This worked very well for me, and I think we
> should continue along those lines. However, is there something to do
> this year to be officially "Mentor for the Subversion project" in the
> eyes of the SoC program organizers?
Most open source projects assign specific mentors to specific
students. Our project just doesn't bother. Our whole community
"mentors" our students, it's just how we work.
So, if you look at the SoC webapp, only fitz and I are actually listed
as 'mentors', but it doesn't really mean anything at all. There's no
need to "sign up"... just mentor the students when they start posting
to our list.
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Re: Summer of Code
Posted by David Anderson <da...@calixo.net>.
Ah, and another quick point...
* Ben Collins-Sussman <su...@red-bean.com> [2006-04-15 18:53:57]:
> At the moment, SoC is busy registering open source projects and
> mentors interested in hosting students.
How does this work within our project? Last year, mentoring was
fairly freeform, with the community and committers as a whole
providing mentoring. This worked very well for me, and I think we
should continue along those lines. However, is there something to do
this year to be officially "Mentor for the Subversion project" in the
eyes of the SoC program organizers?
If so, where do we sign up? For various reasons, I may not be allowed
to apply as a student in this year's edition, but I still want to be
involved in the fun of bringing people to open source. So, do I get
to be the sadistic SoC veteran anyways, or do we have to get a license
for that?
(and then of course there's the issue of tshirts - if mentors get one
that is ;)
- Dave.
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Re: Improved support for Copy/Move (was: Summer of Code)
Posted by Mark Phippard <ma...@softlanding.com>.
"Peter N. Lundblad" <pe...@famlundblad.se> wrote on 04/17/2006 10:06:16
AM:
> Mark Phippard writes:
> > "Ivan Zhakov" <ch...@gmail.com> wrote on 04/16/2006 03:57:49 PM:
> >
> > > I've already posted patch to enable moving moved files. But there
was
> > > objections on idea itself. See discussion here:
> > > http://svn.haxx.se/dev/archive-2005-12/0020.shtml
> >
> > Is there any chance this could get revived? It didn't seem the
objections
> > were that strong, I thought they were seeking more work or
clarification.
> > It would stink to discard a useful feature over theoretical disputes.
One
> > thing that occurs to me is what if we initially limited the scope of
the
> > patch to the move subcommand? Refactoring almost exclusively uses
> > move/rename and there really isn't any ambiguity that I can see to
> > supporting letting a file or folder be moved multiple times.
> >
> I'm +1 on lifting this restriction. I don't see why not recording the
> intermediate state of the WC is a problem in this case.
>
> Say you move a line inside a file and then move it again. The commit
> will show this as a delete and an add in the final place leaving no
> trace of the intermediate state. I think we can view a copy/move of a
> file in the same way. Also, the reason we keep copyfrom information
> is to trace history. However, the intermediate path really doesn't
> have any history to trace, so to speak:-)
That all makes sense to me. All I can add is that I would really like to
see this added to Subversion. We could provide a lot better refactoring
experience in Subclipse if these limitations were removed. I also think
that a lot of new users to Subversion that come from CVS suffer a bit of a
"let-down" when they first run into this. So in my opinion, it would be
good for everyone if we could remove this limitation.
Mark
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Re: Improved support for Copy/Move (was: Summer of Code)
Posted by "Peter N. Lundblad" <pe...@famlundblad.se>.
Mark Phippard writes:
> "Ivan Zhakov" <ch...@gmail.com> wrote on 04/16/2006 03:57:49 PM:
>
> > I've already posted patch to enable moving moved files. But there was
> > objections on idea itself. See discussion here:
> > http://svn.haxx.se/dev/archive-2005-12/0020.shtml
>
> Is there any chance this could get revived? It didn't seem the objections
> were that strong, I thought they were seeking more work or clarification.
> It would stink to discard a useful feature over theoretical disputes. One
> thing that occurs to me is what if we initially limited the scope of the
> patch to the move subcommand? Refactoring almost exclusively uses
> move/rename and there really isn't any ambiguity that I can see to
> supporting letting a file or folder be moved multiple times.
>
I'm +1 on lifting this restriction. I don't see why not recording the
intermediate state of the WC is a problem in this case.
Say you move a line inside a file and then move it again. The commit
will show this as a delete and an add in the final place leaving no
trace of the intermediate state. I think we can view a copy/move of a
file in the same way. Also, the reason we keep copyfrom information
is to trace history. However, the intermediate path really doesn't
have any history to trace, so to speak:-)
Regards,
//Peter
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Improved support for Copy/Move (was: Summer of Code)
Posted by Mark Phippard <ma...@softlanding.com>.
"Ivan Zhakov" <ch...@gmail.com> wrote on 04/16/2006 03:57:49 PM:
> > 1) Improve Copy/Move support.
> >
> > This is not about "true renames" although I suspect having them could
help.
> > I come to Subversion from a Java persepective and Java programmers are
> > always interested in Subversion because it handles move/rename better
than
> > CVS. Since refactoring is such a hot topic in Java programming,
people
> > think switching to Subversion from CVS will bring them a lot of
benefits.
> > In reality, that is not always the case, because people often like to
do
> > several refactorings before doing a commit. For example, a folder
> > containing classes might be renamed, then some of the classes in that
folder
> > might also be renamed, and/or moved to other folders. I do not know
all of
> > the scenarios where Subversion has problems, but it definitely has
them.
> > This comes up a lot with Subclipse users as they get errors when we
try to
> > move something and Subversion does not let them because it has already
> > moved.
> >
> > JavaSVN has already implemented what they call a "Smart Move" feature
that
> > gets around these problems by updating the WC as necessary. Perhaps
they
> > could document how they handle various scenarios to see if the design
would
> > work for Subversion.
>
> I've already posted patch to enable moving moved files. But there was
> objections on idea itself. See discussion here:
> http://svn.haxx.se/dev/archive-2005-12/0020.shtml
Is there any chance this could get revived? It didn't seem the objections
were that strong, I thought they were seeking more work or clarification.
It would stink to discard a useful feature over theoretical disputes. One
thing that occurs to me is what if we initially limited the scope of the
patch to the move subcommand? Refactoring almost exclusively uses
move/rename and there really isn't any ambiguity that I can see to
supporting letting a file or folder be moved multiple times.
Mark
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Re: Summer of Code
Posted by Ivan Zhakov <ch...@gmail.com>.
On 4/16/06, Mark Phippard <ma...@softlanding.com> wrote:
>
> sussman@gmail.com wrote on 04/15/2006 09:53:57 PM:
>
>
> > 2) Come up with a list of project ideas for students.
> >
> > Here's a link to last year's ideas page, which we'll need to
> > update:
> >
> > http://subversion.tigris.org/project_tasks.html
> >
> > Please send thoughts, ideas, feedback!
>
>
> Here are some I can think of:
>
> 1) Improve Copy/Move support.
>
> This is not about "true renames" although I suspect having them could help.
> I come to Subversion from a Java persepective and Java programmers are
> always interested in Subversion because it handles move/rename better than
> CVS. Since refactoring is such a hot topic in Java programming, people
> think switching to Subversion from CVS will bring them a lot of benefits.
> In reality, that is not always the case, because people often like to do
> several refactorings before doing a commit. For example, a folder
> containing classes might be renamed, then some of the classes in that folder
> might also be renamed, and/or moved to other folders. I do not know all of
> the scenarios where Subversion has problems, but it definitely has them.
> This comes up a lot with Subclipse users as they get errors when we try to
> move something and Subversion does not let them because it has already
> moved.
>
> JavaSVN has already implemented what they call a "Smart Move" feature that
> gets around these problems by updating the WC as necessary. Perhaps they
> could document how they handle various scenarios to see if the design would
> work for Subversion.
I've already posted patch to enable moving moved files. But there was
objections on idea itself. See discussion here:
http://svn.haxx.se/dev/archive-2005-12/0020.shtml
--
Ivan Zhakov
Re: Summer of Code
Posted by Mark Phippard <ma...@softlanding.com>.
sussman@gmail.com wrote on 04/15/2006 09:53:57 PM:
> 2) Come up with a list of project ideas for students.
>
> Here's a link to last year's ideas page, which we'll need to
> update:
>
> http://subversion.tigris.org/project_tasks.html
>
> Please send thoughts, ideas, feedback!
Here are some I can think of:
1) Improve Copy/Move support.
This is not about "true renames" although I suspect having them could
help. I come to Subversion from a Java persepective and Java programmers
are always interested in Subversion because it handles move/rename better
than CVS. Since refactoring is such a hot topic in Java programming,
people think switching to Subversion from CVS will bring them a lot of
benefits. In reality, that is not always the case, because people often
like to do several refactorings before doing a commit. For example, a
folder containing classes might be renamed, then some of the classes in
that folder might also be renamed, and/or moved to other folders. I do
not know all of the scenarios where Subversion has problems, but it
definitely has them. This comes up a lot with Subclipse users as they get
errors when we try to move something and Subversion does not let them
because it has already moved.
JavaSVN has already implemented what they call a "Smart Move" feature that
gets around these problems by updating the WC as necessary. Perhaps they
could document how they handle various scenarios to see if the design
would work for Subversion.
2) Improve Windows Build System
This topic has come up on the list lately. Personally, I find the current
system easy enough to use. Perhaps others have some ideas for
improvements. The main things I know of that have been talked about would
just be bringing it more capability such as:
a) Support building DLL's on Windows
b) Support more options, such as not having BDB, or whatever else you can
do/not do on Linux.
I think the idea of providing a way for svnserve to authenticate against
some kind of external source would also be great. I do not know what is
involved in that. Of course some kind of SSL-type option for svnserve
would also be nice to have.
Mark
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