FreeMarker?

[Chuck Esterbrook <ec...@mindspring.com>]

Does anyone have any opinions on how Velocity and FreeMarker compare?
   http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/


-Chuck

Re: FreeMarker?

[Fedor Karpelevitch <fe...@home.com>]

On Saturday 12 May 2001 18:47, you wrote:
> At 06:46 PM 5/12/2001 -0700, Fedor Karpelevitch wrote:
> >This is obviously up to you.
>
> Uh oh. Here comes a "big license thread".  :-)
>
> Um, OK. For me, more freedom is better and less freedom is worse. Freedom
> includes the ability to commercialize (although in this particular case I
> have no interest in doing so) and does NOT include the ability for the
> authors to "take it back".
>
> Also, shorter licenses are better than longer ones.
>
> Also, simpler, easier-to-understand licenses are better than ones require a
> legal mind for comprehension.

You views on licensing are very interesting.
But talking to yourself is no good.

Fedor.

Re: FreeMarker?

[David Kinnvall <da...@alertir.com>]

I hope someone yells when this thread should be taken
elsewhere (private mail or different forum.) A few small
questions of mine inline below, though.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Esterbrook" <ec...@mindspring.com>
To: <ve...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2001 3:47 AM
Subject: Re: FreeMarker?

> Uh oh. Here comes a "big license thread".  :-)

That's what I fear, too. And despite that, I still post. Silly me. :-)

> Um, OK. For me, more freedom is better and less freedom is worse. Freedom
> includes the ability to commercialize (although in this particular case I
> have no interest in doing so) and does NOT include the ability for the
> authors to "take it back".

What do you mean by "take it back"? Depending on your definition,
inability for the author to "take it back" lessens the author's freedom,
and is hence bad, right? If you mean "later change the license at a
whim, retroactively", I agree. If you mean "later change the license
for future versions", I do not agree. That would indeed lessen the
freedom of the original author, who owns the copyright to the work.

Remember that in such a case, all previous versions should be under
the previous license and therefor (sp?) freely available for use and/or
further improvements. The key in "freedom" is that it must in some
form be "freedom for all", not "freedom for some".

The license used by an author obviously has to reflect that author's wish
regarding how the code is supposed to be used, how it is supposed to
be spread and whether it is ok to commercialize using the code or not.

I can see several variations on all of those accounts, and it tends to vary
rather heavily depending on the type of code in question, the purpose of
the code and the philosophical inclination of the author.

> Also, shorter licenses are better than longer ones.
>
> Also, simpler, easier-to-understand licenses are better than ones require
a
> legal mind for comprehension.

These two are kind of connected, aren't they? I agree, though. On both.

When it comes to comparing the LGPL and the Apache Software License,
I see no significant difference in freedom regarding _using_ software under
either of them. I _do_ believe that there are a few differences regarding
_modifying and redistributing_ them.

The GPL is a tougher nut to crack. And that's ok too, since it is the very
purpose of the license. It is a beautiful application of copyright law,
which
makes the current discussions regarding the GPL conflicting with some
definition of "intellectual property" rather silly. The GPL is _based_ on
the very _foundation_ of "intellectual property", i.e copyright law.

To summarize, if you wish to commercialize with the least amount of worries
for yourself, use software under a (in worry increasing order):
- BSD-based License
- Apache Software License
- LGPL
- GPL

Comments, anybody? This is actually my first (ever) post on license issues.
So I might have gotten it all wrong. Heh, gotta start somewhere, right?  :-)

/David

Re: FreeMarker?

[Chuck Esterbrook <ec...@mindspring.com>]

At 06:46 PM 5/12/2001 -0700, Fedor Karpelevitch wrote:
>This is obviously up to you.

Uh oh. Here comes a "big license thread".  :-)

Um, OK. For me, more freedom is better and less freedom is worse. Freedom 
includes the ability to commercialize (although in this particular case I 
have no interest in doing so) and does NOT include the ability for the 
authors to "take it back".

Also, shorter licenses are better than longer ones.

Also, simpler, easier-to-understand licenses are better than ones require a 
legal mind for comprehension.


-Chuck

Re: FreeMarker?

[Fedor Karpelevitch <fe...@home.com>]

> >It is under a different license... (LGPL)
>
> Is that better or worse?
>

This is obviously up to you.

Fedor

Re: FreeMarker?

[Chuck Esterbrook <ec...@mindspring.com>]

At 06:37 PM 5/12/2001 -0700, Jon Stevens wrote:
>on 5/12/01 3:01 PM, "Chuck Esterbrook" <ec...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> > Does anyone have any opinions on how Velocity and FreeMarker compare?
> >  http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/
> >
> > -Chuck
>
>Freemarker uses a different syntax.

Yeah after glancing a little more I noticed the syntax diff. I don't like 
FreeMarker's use of <> because then you can't see the instructions when you 
preview in a browser.


>It is under a different license... (LGPL)

Is that better or worse?


-Chuck

RE: FreeMarker? - I used it

[Chuck Esterbrook <ec...@mindspring.com>]

At 06:20 PM 5/14/2001 +0200, Paulo Gaspar wrote:
>I could go into further detail, but I live that to you - both products
>have easy to follow and quite complete documentation.
>
>
>Have fun,
>Paulo Gaspar

Thanks for the feedback. I agree that introspection is the way to go. It's 
quite convenient and productive.

-Chuck

Re: FreeMarker?

[Jon Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>]

on 5/12/01 3:01 PM, "Chuck Esterbrook" <ec...@mindspring.com> wrote:

> Does anyone have any opinions on how Velocity and FreeMarker compare?
>  http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/
> 
> -Chuck

Freemarker uses a different syntax.

It is under a different license... (LGPL)

-jon

-- 
If you come from a Perl or PHP background, JSP is a way to take
your pain to new levels. --Anonymous
<http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/ymtd/ymtd.html>

RE: FreeMarker? - I used it

[Paulo Gaspar <pa...@krankikom.de>]

I used both.

To make it short:
- FreeMarker philosophy is quite different from Velocity's;
- In general, you can do more with less code in Velocity.

Notice that in Freemarker you have to build data structures for the data
you want to expose using a limited set of classes or custom build 
classes that respect a limited set of Interfaces. This often means that
you have to move data (or references to data) from some data structure
into a specific Freemarker one.

In Velocity you are less limited, since it accepts standard java beans, 
arrays, Collections...

One could point that Freemarker has better control of what data gets
exposed, but you can easily achieve that same level of control with 
Velocity when convenient, just by using specific wrapping beans - and
you only have the trouble when you need it.

I don't know about performance. But whatever is the difference, the 
difference in time per page will probably be a small fraction of the
time of producing its data. So, IMO the ease of use is the most 
important factor.


And, from my experience, Velocity is by far the easier to use.


I could go into further detail, but I live that to you - both products
have easy to follow and quite complete documentation.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chuck Esterbrook [mailto:echuck@mindspring.com]
> Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2001 12:02 AM
> To: velocity-user@jakarta.apache.org
> Subject: FreeMarker?
> 
> 
> Does anyone have any opinions on how Velocity and FreeMarker compare?
>    http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/
> 
> 
> -Chuck
>