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Posted to legal-discuss@apache.org by Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com> on 2009/12/17 15:06:56 UTC
Fwd: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
Hi all,
Based on some earlier discussion, it was our understanding that no further action was required regarding the Pivot project name; see this thread on legal-discuss (I haven't been able to locate the follow-up discussion on the trademarks list):
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/www-legal-discuss/200912.mbox/%3c168ef9ac0912031848w1996bbfp21913c2ec669e61b@mail.gmail.com%3e
However, based on the attached board meeting summary, it seems as though this may have changed. If so, what are the current issues, and what are the next steps?
Thanks for your help,
Greg Brown
Begin forwarded message:
> From: Jim Jagielski <ji...@apache.org>
> Date: December 17, 2009 8:15:52 AM EST
> To: committers@apache.org
> Subject: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
>
> The December board meeting took place on the 16th. The following directors
> were present:
>
> Shane Curcuru
> Doug Cutting
> Justin Erenkrantz
> Roy T. Fielding
> Jim Jagielski
> Geir Magnusson, Jr.
> Brett Porter
> Greg Stein
>
> and the following guests/officers were present:
>
> Sam Ruby
> J Aaron Farr
> Craig L Russell
> Gavin McDonald
>
> All of the received reports to the board were approved. The following
> reports were not received and are expected next month:
>
> Status report for the Apache iBATIS Project
> Status report for the Apache Santuario Project
> Status report for the Apache Web Services Project
>
> The following resolutions were passed unaminously:
>
> A. Establish the Apache Pivot Project (Greg Brown, VP)
> The PMC is tasked to work with the Branding Cmmt and the
> Legal Cmmt regarding the use of the name 'Pivot' due to
> potential conflict.
>
> B. Establish the Apache OpenWebBeans Project (Gurkan Erdogdu, VP)
>
> C. Appoint a Vice President of W3C Relations (Sam Ruby)
>
> D. Establish the Apache Axis Project (Glen Daniels, VP)
> The PMC should be aware that the name of the PMC was changed
> from 'Axis2' to 'Axis' and that the PMC is tasked with the
> responsibility for Axis1 and shepherding its transition to
> the Attic.
>
> The next board meeting will be on the 20th of January.
>
Fwd: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
Posted by Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com>.
FYI. I will post any relevant follow-up messages to the list.
Begin forwarded message:
> From: Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com>
> Date: December 17, 2009 9:06:56 AM EST
> To: legal-discuss@apache.org, trademarks@apache.org
> Subject: Fwd: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
>
> Hi all,
>
> Based on some earlier discussion, it was our understanding that no further action was required regarding the Pivot project name; see this thread on legal-discuss (I haven't been able to locate the follow-up discussion on the trademarks list):
>
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/www-legal-discuss/200912.mbox/%3c168ef9ac0912031848w1996bbfp21913c2ec669e61b@mail.gmail.com%3e
>
> However, based on the attached board meeting summary, it seems as though this may have changed. If so, what are the current issues, and what are the next steps?
>
> Thanks for your help,
> Greg Brown
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
>> From: Jim Jagielski <ji...@apache.org>
>> Date: December 17, 2009 8:15:52 AM EST
>> To: committers@apache.org
>> Subject: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
>>
>> The December board meeting took place on the 16th. The following directors
>> were present:
>>
>> Shane Curcuru
>> Doug Cutting
>> Justin Erenkrantz
>> Roy T. Fielding
>> Jim Jagielski
>> Geir Magnusson, Jr.
>> Brett Porter
>> Greg Stein
>>
>> and the following guests/officers were present:
>>
>> Sam Ruby
>> J Aaron Farr
>> Craig L Russell
>> Gavin McDonald
>>
>> All of the received reports to the board were approved. The following
>> reports were not received and are expected next month:
>>
>> Status report for the Apache iBATIS Project
>> Status report for the Apache Santuario Project
>> Status report for the Apache Web Services Project
>>
>> The following resolutions were passed unaminously:
>>
>> A. Establish the Apache Pivot Project (Greg Brown, VP)
>> The PMC is tasked to work with the Branding Cmmt and the
>> Legal Cmmt regarding the use of the name 'Pivot' due to
>> potential conflict.
>>
>> B. Establish the Apache OpenWebBeans Project (Gurkan Erdogdu, VP)
>>
>> C. Appoint a Vice President of W3C Relations (Sam Ruby)
>>
>> D. Establish the Apache Axis Project (Glen Daniels, VP)
>> The PMC should be aware that the name of the PMC was changed
>> from 'Axis2' to 'Axis' and that the PMC is tasked with the
>> responsibility for Axis1 and shepherding its transition to
>> the Attic.
>>
>> The next board meeting will be on the 20th of January.
>>
>
Re: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
Posted by Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>.
That message indicated that Shane was going to follow up on legal internal, not this list. I don't recall having seen a query from him on legal internal.
Ralph
On Dec 17, 2009, at 6:25 AM, Todd Volkert wrote:
> Trademarks isn't archived since it's only available to comimitters, but I think the follow-up Greg's referring to is Message-ID: <4B...@shanecurcuru.org>
>
> -T
>
> On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 9:06 AM, Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Based on some earlier discussion, it was our understanding that no further action was required regarding the Pivot project name; see this thread on legal-discuss (I haven't been able to locate the follow-up discussion on the trademarks list):
>
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/www-legal-discuss/200912.mbox/%3c168ef9ac0912031848w1996bbfp21913c2ec669e61b@mail.gmail.com%3e
>
> However, based on the attached board meeting summary, it seems as though this may have changed. If so, what are the current issues, and what are the next steps?
>
> Thanks for your help,
> Greg Brown
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
>> From: Jim Jagielski <ji...@apache.org>
>> Date: December 17, 2009 8:15:52 AM EST
>> To: committers@apache.org
>> Subject: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
>>
>> The December board meeting took place on the 16th. The following directors
>> were present:
>>
>> Shane Curcuru
>> Doug Cutting
>> Justin Erenkrantz
>> Roy T. Fielding
>> Jim Jagielski
>> Geir Magnusson, Jr.
>> Brett Porter
>> Greg Stein
>>
>> and the following guests/officers were present:
>>
>> Sam Ruby
>> J Aaron Farr
>> Craig L Russell
>> Gavin McDonald
>>
>> All of the received reports to the board were approved. The following
>> reports were not received and are expected next month:
>>
>> Status report for the Apache iBATIS Project
>> Status report for the Apache Santuario Project
>> Status report for the Apache Web Services Project
>>
>> The following resolutions were passed unaminously:
>>
>> A. Establish the Apache Pivot Project (Greg Brown, VP)
>> The PMC is tasked to work with the Branding Cmmt and the
>> Legal Cmmt regarding the use of the name 'Pivot' due to
>> potential conflict.
>>
>> B. Establish the Apache OpenWebBeans Project (Gurkan Erdogdu, VP)
>>
>> C. Appoint a Vice President of W3C Relations (Sam Ruby)
>>
>> D. Establish the Apache Axis Project (Glen Daniels, VP)
>> The PMC should be aware that the name of the PMC was changed
>> from 'Axis2' to 'Axis' and that the PMC is tasked with the
>> responsibility for Axis1 and shepherding its transition to
>> the Attic.
>>
>> The next board meeting will be on the 20th of January.
>>
>
>
Re: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
Posted by Todd Volkert <tv...@gmail.com>.
Trademarks isn't archived since it's only available to comimitters, but I
think the follow-up Greg's referring to is Message-ID: <
4B1928EB.9080304@shanecurcuru.org>
-T
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 9:06 AM, Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Based on some earlier discussion, it was our understanding that no further
> action was required regarding the Pivot project name; see this thread on
> legal-discuss (I haven't been able to locate the follow-up discussion on the
> trademarks list):
>
>
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/www-legal-discuss/200912.mbox/%3c168ef9ac0912031848w1996bbfp21913c2ec669e61b@mail.gmail.com%3e
>
> However, based on the attached board meeting summary, it seems as though
> this may have changed. If so, what are the current issues, and what are the
> next steps?
>
> Thanks for your help,
> Greg Brown
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> *From: *Jim Jagielski <ji...@apache.org>
> *Date: *December 17, 2009 8:15:52 AM EST
> *To: *committers@apache.org
> *Subject: **ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009*
>
> The December board meeting took place on the 16th. The following directors
> were present:
>
> Shane Curcuru
> Doug Cutting
> Justin Erenkrantz
> Roy T. Fielding
> Jim Jagielski
> Geir Magnusson, Jr.
> Brett Porter
> Greg Stein
>
> and the following guests/officers were present:
>
> Sam Ruby
> J Aaron Farr
> Craig L Russell
> Gavin McDonald
>
> All of the received reports to the board were approved. The following
> reports were not received and are expected next month:
>
> Status report for the Apache iBATIS Project
> Status report for the Apache Santuario Project
> Status report for the Apache Web Services Project
>
> The following resolutions were passed unaminously:
>
> A. Establish the Apache Pivot Project (Greg Brown, VP)
> The PMC is tasked to work with the Branding Cmmt and the
> Legal Cmmt regarding the use of the name 'Pivot' due to
> potential conflict.
>
> B. Establish the Apache OpenWebBeans Project (Gurkan Erdogdu, VP)
>
> C. Appoint a Vice President of W3C Relations (Sam Ruby)
>
> D. Establish the Apache Axis Project (Glen Daniels, VP)
> The PMC should be aware that the name of the PMC was changed
> from 'Axis2' to 'Axis' and that the PMC is tasked with the
> responsibility for Axis1 and shepherding its transition to
> the Attic.
>
> The next board meeting will be on the 20th of January.
>
>
>
Re: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
Posted by Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com>.
Larry,
This seems like a perfectly reasonable approach to me. In the meantime, we will plan to continue under the name "Apache Pivot".
I assume that your office will be responsible for drafting and sending the letter - if this is not correct, please let me know. Also please let us know if there is anything else we need to do or can assist with.
Thanks again for your help,
Greg
On Dec 17, 2009, at 2:58 PM, Lawrence Rosen wrote:
> Here's what I wrote earlier this morning:
>
> Shane Curcuru asked:
> > - What are the risks in allowing the Apache Pivot project in keeping
> > their name?
>
> This is not the right question to discuss off the legal-internal list without explicit attorney-client privilege.
>
> However, there is nothing stopping us from writing to Microsoft to say:
>
> We note that you have filed in the USPTO to register a trademark
> on "PIVOT" (serial number 77859890). Please be aware that Apache
> Software Foundation has been using the trademark PIVOT for our
> own software. See http://incubator.apache.org/pivot/.
>
> Precede this with an appropriate greeting and add a gracious closing. I would then leave it up to Microsoft's own attorneys to answer your question for themselves.
>
> I recommend that such a letter come from me as your attorney directly to the deputy general counsel of Microsoft (whom I know personally, and since I don't know the name of the head of their trademark department who reports to him). I'm sure it will not cause a ruckus, merely careful rethinking of their trademark application. Another thing it will do is to make Microsoft attorneys more aware that ASF is a powerhouse of trademarked software.
>
> Is that what you want?
>
> /Larry
>
>
> From: Todd Volkert [mailto:tvolkert@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 11:45 AM
> To: legal-discuss@apache.org
> Cc: pivot-dev@incubator.apache.org; ASF Team PRC; trademarks@apache.org
> Subject: Re: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
>
>
> I would suggest following the advice of counsel (Larry) as a first step.
>
> Sorry for asking people to repeat themselves, but the only email I saw from Larry was the "WTF" email (I'm subscribed to legal-discuss, trademarks, and pivot-dev) -- what advice should we be following?
>
> -T
Re: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
Posted by Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com>.
Larry,
This seems like a perfectly reasonable approach to me. In the meantime, we will plan to continue under the name "Apache Pivot".
I assume that your office will be responsible for drafting and sending the letter - if this is not correct, please let me know. Also please let us know if there is anything else we need to do or can assist with.
Thanks again for your help,
Greg
On Dec 17, 2009, at 2:58 PM, Lawrence Rosen wrote:
> Here's what I wrote earlier this morning:
>
> Shane Curcuru asked:
> > - What are the risks in allowing the Apache Pivot project in keeping
> > their name?
>
> This is not the right question to discuss off the legal-internal list without explicit attorney-client privilege.
>
> However, there is nothing stopping us from writing to Microsoft to say:
>
> We note that you have filed in the USPTO to register a trademark
> on "PIVOT" (serial number 77859890). Please be aware that Apache
> Software Foundation has been using the trademark PIVOT for our
> own software. See http://incubator.apache.org/pivot/.
>
> Precede this with an appropriate greeting and add a gracious closing. I would then leave it up to Microsoft's own attorneys to answer your question for themselves.
>
> I recommend that such a letter come from me as your attorney directly to the deputy general counsel of Microsoft (whom I know personally, and since I don't know the name of the head of their trademark department who reports to him). I'm sure it will not cause a ruckus, merely careful rethinking of their trademark application. Another thing it will do is to make Microsoft attorneys more aware that ASF is a powerhouse of trademarked software.
>
> Is that what you want?
>
> /Larry
>
>
> From: Todd Volkert [mailto:tvolkert@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 11:45 AM
> To: legal-discuss@apache.org
> Cc: pivot-dev@incubator.apache.org; ASF Team PRC; trademarks@apache.org
> Subject: Re: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
>
>
> I would suggest following the advice of counsel (Larry) as a first step.
>
> Sorry for asking people to repeat themselves, but the only email I saw from Larry was the "WTF" email (I'm subscribed to legal-discuss, trademarks, and pivot-dev) -- what advice should we be following?
>
> -T
RE: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
Posted by Lawrence Rosen <lr...@rosenlaw.com>.
Here's what I wrote earlier this morning:
Shane Curcuru asked:
> - What are the risks in allowing the Apache Pivot project in keeping
> their name?
This is not the right question to discuss off the legal-internal list
without explicit attorney-client privilege.
However, there is nothing stopping us from writing to Microsoft to say:
We note that you have filed in the USPTO to register a trademark
on "PIVOT" (serial number 77859890). Please be aware that Apache
Software Foundation has been using the trademark PIVOT for our
own software. See http://incubator.apache.org/pivot/.
Precede this with an appropriate greeting and add a gracious closing. I
would then leave it up to Microsoft's own attorneys to answer your question
for themselves.
I recommend that such a letter come from me as your attorney directly to the
deputy general counsel of Microsoft (whom I know personally, and since I
don't know the name of the head of their trademark department who reports to
him). I'm sure it will not cause a ruckus, merely careful rethinking of
their trademark application. Another thing it will do is to make Microsoft
attorneys more aware that ASF is a powerhouse of trademarked software.
Is that what you want?
/Larry
From: Todd Volkert [mailto:tvolkert@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 11:45 AM
To: legal-discuss@apache.org
Cc: pivot-dev@incubator.apache.org; ASF Team PRC; trademarks@apache.org
Subject: Re: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
I would suggest following the advice of counsel (Larry) as a first step.
Sorry for asking people to repeat themselves, but the only email I saw from
Larry was the "WTF" email (I'm subscribed to legal-discuss, trademarks, and
pivot-dev) -- what advice should we be following?
-T
Re: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
Posted by Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>.
You won't see any responses from Larry that provide the kind of answers you are looking for on this list as it is not attorney/client privileged. The legal-internal list is. Just be assured that Larry is taking the appropriate steps.
For the time being I would recommend not doing anything, unless you really don't like the project name and want to change it anyway. I can tell you though, it is getting harder and harder to find names that don't have some sort of conflict.
Ralph
On Dec 17, 2009, at 11:45 AM, Todd Volkert wrote:
>
> I would suggest following the advice of counsel (Larry) as a first step.
>
> Sorry for asking people to repeat themselves, but the only email I saw from Larry was the "WTF" email (I'm subscribed to legal-discuss, trademarks, and pivot-dev) -- what advice should we be following?
>
> -T
RE: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
Posted by Lawrence Rosen <lr...@rosenlaw.com>.
Here's what I wrote earlier this morning:
Shane Curcuru asked:
> - What are the risks in allowing the Apache Pivot project in keeping
> their name?
This is not the right question to discuss off the legal-internal list
without explicit attorney-client privilege.
However, there is nothing stopping us from writing to Microsoft to say:
We note that you have filed in the USPTO to register a trademark
on "PIVOT" (serial number 77859890). Please be aware that Apache
Software Foundation has been using the trademark PIVOT for our
own software. See http://incubator.apache.org/pivot/.
Precede this with an appropriate greeting and add a gracious closing. I
would then leave it up to Microsoft's own attorneys to answer your question
for themselves.
I recommend that such a letter come from me as your attorney directly to the
deputy general counsel of Microsoft (whom I know personally, and since I
don't know the name of the head of their trademark department who reports to
him). I'm sure it will not cause a ruckus, merely careful rethinking of
their trademark application. Another thing it will do is to make Microsoft
attorneys more aware that ASF is a powerhouse of trademarked software.
Is that what you want?
/Larry
From: Todd Volkert [mailto:tvolkert@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 11:45 AM
To: legal-discuss@apache.org
Cc: pivot-dev@incubator.apache.org; ASF Team PRC; trademarks@apache.org
Subject: Re: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
I would suggest following the advice of counsel (Larry) as a first step.
Sorry for asking people to repeat themselves, but the only email I saw from
Larry was the "WTF" email (I'm subscribed to legal-discuss, trademarks, and
pivot-dev) -- what advice should we be following?
-T
Re: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
Posted by Todd Volkert <tv...@gmail.com>.
> I would suggest following the advice of counsel (Larry) as a first step.
>
Sorry for asking people to repeat themselves, but the only email I saw from
Larry was the "WTF" email (I'm subscribed to legal-discuss, trademarks, and
pivot-dev) -- what advice should we be following?
-T
Re: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
Posted by Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com>.
Hi Roy,
> Hi folks. There seems to be some misunderstanding of how we work around
> here. The legal discuss list is for public discussion of licensing issues
> related to use of Apache projects. The brand management list is for the
> new VP to organize and promote Apache brands. The legal internal list is
> for discussion with Apache's lawyer. The dev lists are for public
> technical development of our projects.
...
> If you want to have a discussion about legal strategy, the procedure is
> to have that discussion on legal-internal and CC your project's private
> list.
Makes perfect sense. Thank you for the clarification.
Greg
Re: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
Posted by Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com>.
Hi Roy,
> Hi folks. There seems to be some misunderstanding of how we work around
> here. The legal discuss list is for public discussion of licensing issues
> related to use of Apache projects. The brand management list is for the
> new VP to organize and promote Apache brands. The legal internal list is
> for discussion with Apache's lawyer. The dev lists are for public
> technical development of our projects.
...
> If you want to have a discussion about legal strategy, the procedure is
> to have that discussion on legal-internal and CC your project's private
> list.
Makes perfect sense. Thank you for the clarification.
Greg
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Re: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
Posted by "Roy T. Fielding" <fi...@gbiv.com>.
On Dec 17, 2009, at 12:49 PM, Greg Brown wrote:
>> Important to emphasize this. The issue raised on the call was not
>> trademark but brand. This entire thread is noise :)
>
> I apologize for the "noise". :-) But the notes from the board meeting suggested that we work with both branding and legal to resolve any potential conflict:
Hi folks. There seems to be some misunderstanding of how we work around
here. The legal discuss list is for public discussion of licensing issues
related to use of Apache projects. The brand management list is for the
new VP to organize and promote Apache brands. The legal internal list is
for discussion with Apache's lawyer. The dev lists are for public
technical development of our projects.
In other words, please don't ask *here* for advice from Apache's lawyers.
Larry has (and I presume will continue to do so) refused to hold strategy
discussions regarding our legal options on a public list. That's because
of the way courts and privileged information works. Please don't be
alarmed by that refusal. He is absolutely right (trust me).
If you want to have a discussion about legal strategy, the procedure is
to have that discussion on legal-internal and CC your project's private
list.
Thank you for you concern,
....Roy
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Re: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
Posted by "Roy T. Fielding" <fi...@gbiv.com>.
On Dec 17, 2009, at 12:49 PM, Greg Brown wrote:
>> Important to emphasize this. The issue raised on the call was not
>> trademark but brand. This entire thread is noise :)
>
> I apologize for the "noise". :-) But the notes from the board meeting suggested that we work with both branding and legal to resolve any potential conflict:
Hi folks. There seems to be some misunderstanding of how we work around
here. The legal discuss list is for public discussion of licensing issues
related to use of Apache projects. The brand management list is for the
new VP to organize and promote Apache brands. The legal internal list is
for discussion with Apache's lawyer. The dev lists are for public
technical development of our projects.
In other words, please don't ask *here* for advice from Apache's lawyers.
Larry has (and I presume will continue to do so) refused to hold strategy
discussions regarding our legal options on a public list. That's because
of the way courts and privileged information works. Please don't be
alarmed by that refusal. He is absolutely right (trust me).
If you want to have a discussion about legal strategy, the procedure is
to have that discussion on legal-internal and CC your project's private
list.
Thank you for you concern,
....Roy
Re: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
Posted by Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com>.
> Important to emphasize this. The issue raised on the call was not
> trademark but brand. This entire thread is noise :)
I apologize for the "noise". :-) But the notes from the board meeting suggested that we work with both branding and legal to resolve any potential conflict:
>> A. Establish the Apache Pivot Project (Greg Brown, VP)
>> The PMC is tasked to work with the Branding Cmmt and the
>> Legal Cmmt regarding the use of the name 'Pivot' due to
>> potential conflict.
Is there any additional discussion that we need to have from a brand perspective? If so, what is the appropriate venue?
Greg
Re: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
Posted by Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com>.
> Important to emphasize this. The issue raised on the call was not
> trademark but brand. This entire thread is noise :)
I apologize for the "noise". :-) But the notes from the board meeting suggested that we work with both branding and legal to resolve any potential conflict:
>> A. Establish the Apache Pivot Project (Greg Brown, VP)
>> The PMC is tasked to work with the Branding Cmmt and the
>> Legal Cmmt regarding the use of the name 'Pivot' due to
>> potential conflict.
Is there any additional discussion that we need to have from a brand perspective? If so, what is the appropriate venue?
Greg
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Re: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@apache.org>.
Important to emphasize this. The issue raised on the call was not
trademark but brand. This entire thread is noise :)
On Thursday, December 17, 2009, Justin Erenkrantz <ju...@erenkrantz.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 11:24 AM, Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com> wrote:
>> In all seriousness, what, if anything, should we be doing about this? Do we need to change the project name? Are there other options? This is obviously a big deal for us because any re-branding is going to take time and is likely to hold up any announcements about our recent graduation.
>
> I would suggest following the advice of counsel (Larry) as a first step.
>
> If an alternative name comes to mind easily to the community, now is a
> great time to re-brand. If it doesn't, then go ahead with the
> migration and announcement as Apache Pivot. (You can view a later
> rename as another opportunity for publicity!) At this point, the
> Pivot app by Microsoft is only a trademark application - not a
> definitive registration. However, Roy's point during the Board
> meeting yesterday was that Microsoft marketing is going to extensively
> promote "Microsoft Pivot" and relegate "Apache Pivot" to the
> netherworlds in the Google indexes... -- justin
>
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>
>
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Re: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
Posted by Todd Volkert <tv...@gmail.com>.
> I would suggest following the advice of counsel (Larry) as a first step.
>
Sorry for asking people to repeat themselves, but the only email I saw from
Larry was the "WTF" email (I'm subscribed to legal-discuss, trademarks, and
pivot-dev) -- what advice should we be following?
-T
Re: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
Posted by Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com>.
>> In all seriousness, what, if anything, should we be doing about this? Do we need to change the project name? Are there other options? This is obviously a big deal for us because any re-branding is going to take time and is likely to hold up any announcements about our recent graduation.
>
> I would suggest following the advice of counsel (Larry) as a first step.
I agree 100% - Larry, please let us know how you think we should proceed.
Re: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@apache.org>.
Important to emphasize this. The issue raised on the call was not
trademark but brand. This entire thread is noise :)
On Thursday, December 17, 2009, Justin Erenkrantz <ju...@erenkrantz.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 11:24 AM, Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com> wrote:
>> In all seriousness, what, if anything, should we be doing about this? Do we need to change the project name? Are there other options? This is obviously a big deal for us because any re-branding is going to take time and is likely to hold up any announcements about our recent graduation.
>
> I would suggest following the advice of counsel (Larry) as a first step.
>
> If an alternative name comes to mind easily to the community, now is a
> great time to re-brand. If it doesn't, then go ahead with the
> migration and announcement as Apache Pivot. (You can view a later
> rename as another opportunity for publicity!) At this point, the
> Pivot app by Microsoft is only a trademark application - not a
> definitive registration. However, Roy's point during the Board
> meeting yesterday was that Microsoft marketing is going to extensively
> promote "Microsoft Pivot" and relegate "Apache Pivot" to the
> netherworlds in the Google indexes... -- justin
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
>
>
Re: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
Posted by Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com>.
>> In all seriousness, what, if anything, should we be doing about this? Do we need to change the project name? Are there other options? This is obviously a big deal for us because any re-branding is going to take time and is likely to hold up any announcements about our recent graduation.
>
> I would suggest following the advice of counsel (Larry) as a first step.
I agree 100% - Larry, please let us know how you think we should proceed.
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Re: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <ju...@erenkrantz.com>.
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 11:24 AM, Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com> wrote:
> In all seriousness, what, if anything, should we be doing about this? Do we need to change the project name? Are there other options? This is obviously a big deal for us because any re-branding is going to take time and is likely to hold up any announcements about our recent graduation.
I would suggest following the advice of counsel (Larry) as a first step.
If an alternative name comes to mind easily to the community, now is a
great time to re-brand. If it doesn't, then go ahead with the
migration and announcement as Apache Pivot. (You can view a later
rename as another opportunity for publicity!) At this point, the
Pivot app by Microsoft is only a trademark application - not a
definitive registration. However, Roy's point during the Board
meeting yesterday was that Microsoft marketing is going to extensively
promote "Microsoft Pivot" and relegate "Apache Pivot" to the
netherworlds in the Google indexes... -- justin
Re: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <ju...@erenkrantz.com>.
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 11:24 AM, Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com> wrote:
> In all seriousness, what, if anything, should we be doing about this? Do we need to change the project name? Are there other options? This is obviously a big deal for us because any re-branding is going to take time and is likely to hold up any announcements about our recent graduation.
I would suggest following the advice of counsel (Larry) as a first step.
If an alternative name comes to mind easily to the community, now is a
great time to re-brand. If it doesn't, then go ahead with the
migration and announcement as Apache Pivot. (You can view a later
rename as another opportunity for publicity!) At this point, the
Pivot app by Microsoft is only a trademark application - not a
definitive registration. However, Roy's point during the Board
meeting yesterday was that Microsoft marketing is going to extensively
promote "Microsoft Pivot" and relegate "Apache Pivot" to the
netherworlds in the Google indexes... -- justin
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Re: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
Posted by Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com>.
In all seriousness, what, if anything, should we be doing about this? Do we need to change the project name? Are there other options? This is obviously a big deal for us because any re-branding is going to take time and is likely to hold up any announcements about our recent graduation.
Greg
On Dec 17, 2009, at 2:15 PM, Lawrence Rosen wrote:
> I prefer to be thought of as having a delightful sense of humor. Even cranky
> people can be subtly funny. :-)
>
> /Larry
>
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Mark Miller [mailto:markrmiller@apache.org]
>> Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 11:09 AM
>> To: legal-discuss@apache.org
>> Subject: Re: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
>>
>> Apache's TM attorney is either ridiculously cranky or has a delightful
>> sense of humor. I'm not sure which myself.
>>
>> - Mark
>>
>> Todd Volkert wrote:
>>> Didn't mean to offend, Larry - just trying to figure this situation
>> out.
>>>
>>> -T
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 2:02 PM, Lawrence Rosen <lrosen@rosenlaw.com
>>> <ma...@rosenlaw.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> WTF?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ASF already has a trademark attorney. Me. Please tell your
>>> trademark lawyer friend to mind his own business. Say it
>>> politely. I'm sure his opinion wasn't meant to contradict
>>> mine-but it does.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Did you or he write that absurd opinion on an Apple (TM)
>>> computer. Using Windows (TM)?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> /Larry
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Todd Volkert [mailto:tvolkert@gmail.com
>>> <ma...@gmail.com>]
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, December 17, 2009 10:50 AM
>>>
>>> *To:* legal-discuss@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>
>>> *Cc:* trademarks@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>
>>> *Subject:* Re: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Just talked to a trademark lawyer friend of mine, and he
>>> emphasized that you can't trademark a common word in the English
>>> language (like "Pivot") - you can trademark a sequence of words,
>>> like "Microsoft Pivot", a graphic, a jingle, etc. So what
>>> exactly did MS trademark -- "Microsoft Pivot"? If so, then I'd
>>> think we're in the clear to use "Apache Pivot"...
>>>
>>> -T
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 1:09 PM, Greg Brown <gkbrown@mac.com
>>> <ma...@mac.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> FWIW, all of our public communications introduce the project as
>>> "Apache Pivot" but often later use the shortened "Pivot" form to
>>> avoid unnecessary verbosity. Not sure if this is relevant, but I
>>> thought I would mention it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Dec 17, 2009, at 12:07 PM, Todd Volkert wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Tho has it been using "Pivot" or "Apache Pivot"? And how
>>> long has msft
>>> been using their "Pivot" (unregistered) mark?
>>>
>>>
>>> It's been "Apache Pivot". As far as I can tell, Microsoft only
>>> publicly announced their Pivot project in late November '09.
>>>
>>> Forgive my ignorance, but what's the process towards getting
>>> this resolved? It stands to reason that we shouldn't migrate
>>> our infrastructure and such until we make sure that we're ok to
>>> keep the name "Apache Pivot", but how is that determination made?
>>>
>>> -T
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
Re: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
Posted by Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com>.
In all seriousness, what, if anything, should we be doing about this? Do we need to change the project name? Are there other options? This is obviously a big deal for us because any re-branding is going to take time and is likely to hold up any announcements about our recent graduation.
Greg
On Dec 17, 2009, at 2:15 PM, Lawrence Rosen wrote:
> I prefer to be thought of as having a delightful sense of humor. Even cranky
> people can be subtly funny. :-)
>
> /Larry
>
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Mark Miller [mailto:markrmiller@apache.org]
>> Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 11:09 AM
>> To: legal-discuss@apache.org
>> Subject: Re: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
>>
>> Apache's TM attorney is either ridiculously cranky or has a delightful
>> sense of humor. I'm not sure which myself.
>>
>> - Mark
>>
>> Todd Volkert wrote:
>>> Didn't mean to offend, Larry - just trying to figure this situation
>> out.
>>>
>>> -T
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 2:02 PM, Lawrence Rosen <lrosen@rosenlaw.com
>>> <ma...@rosenlaw.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> WTF?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ASF already has a trademark attorney. Me. Please tell your
>>> trademark lawyer friend to mind his own business. Say it
>>> politely. I'm sure his opinion wasn't meant to contradict
>>> mine-but it does.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Did you or he write that absurd opinion on an Apple (TM)
>>> computer. Using Windows (TM)?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> /Larry
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Todd Volkert [mailto:tvolkert@gmail.com
>>> <ma...@gmail.com>]
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, December 17, 2009 10:50 AM
>>>
>>> *To:* legal-discuss@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>
>>> *Cc:* trademarks@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>
>>> *Subject:* Re: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Just talked to a trademark lawyer friend of mine, and he
>>> emphasized that you can't trademark a common word in the English
>>> language (like "Pivot") - you can trademark a sequence of words,
>>> like "Microsoft Pivot", a graphic, a jingle, etc. So what
>>> exactly did MS trademark -- "Microsoft Pivot"? If so, then I'd
>>> think we're in the clear to use "Apache Pivot"...
>>>
>>> -T
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 1:09 PM, Greg Brown <gkbrown@mac.com
>>> <ma...@mac.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> FWIW, all of our public communications introduce the project as
>>> "Apache Pivot" but often later use the shortened "Pivot" form to
>>> avoid unnecessary verbosity. Not sure if this is relevant, but I
>>> thought I would mention it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Dec 17, 2009, at 12:07 PM, Todd Volkert wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Tho has it been using "Pivot" or "Apache Pivot"? And how
>>> long has msft
>>> been using their "Pivot" (unregistered) mark?
>>>
>>>
>>> It's been "Apache Pivot". As far as I can tell, Microsoft only
>>> publicly announced their Pivot project in late November '09.
>>>
>>> Forgive my ignorance, but what's the process towards getting
>>> this resolved? It stands to reason that we shouldn't migrate
>>> our infrastructure and such until we make sure that we're ok to
>>> keep the name "Apache Pivot", but how is that determination made?
>>>
>>> -T
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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RE: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
Posted by Lawrence Rosen <lr...@rosenlaw.com>.
I prefer to be thought of as having a delightful sense of humor. Even cranky
people can be subtly funny. :-)
/Larry
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Miller [mailto:markrmiller@apache.org]
> Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 11:09 AM
> To: legal-discuss@apache.org
> Subject: Re: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
>
> Apache's TM attorney is either ridiculously cranky or has a delightful
> sense of humor. I'm not sure which myself.
>
> - Mark
>
> Todd Volkert wrote:
> > Didn't mean to offend, Larry - just trying to figure this situation
> out.
> >
> > -T
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 2:02 PM, Lawrence Rosen <lrosen@rosenlaw.com
> > <ma...@rosenlaw.com>> wrote:
> >
> > WTF?
> >
> >
> >
> > ASF already has a trademark attorney. Me. Please tell your
> > trademark lawyer friend to mind his own business. Say it
> > politely. I'm sure his opinion wasn't meant to contradict
> > mine-but it does.
> >
> >
> >
> > Did you or he write that absurd opinion on an Apple (TM)
> > computer. Using Windows (TM)?
> >
> >
> >
> > /Larry
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *From:* Todd Volkert [mailto:tvolkert@gmail.com
> > <ma...@gmail.com>]
> > *Sent:* Thursday, December 17, 2009 10:50 AM
> >
> > *To:* legal-discuss@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>
> > *Cc:* trademarks@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>
> > *Subject:* Re: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
> >
> >
> >
> > Just talked to a trademark lawyer friend of mine, and he
> > emphasized that you can't trademark a common word in the English
> > language (like "Pivot") - you can trademark a sequence of words,
> > like "Microsoft Pivot", a graphic, a jingle, etc. So what
> > exactly did MS trademark -- "Microsoft Pivot"? If so, then I'd
> > think we're in the clear to use "Apache Pivot"...
> >
> > -T
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 1:09 PM, Greg Brown <gkbrown@mac.com
> > <ma...@mac.com>> wrote:
> >
> > FWIW, all of our public communications introduce the project as
> > "Apache Pivot" but often later use the shortened "Pivot" form to
> > avoid unnecessary verbosity. Not sure if this is relevant, but I
> > thought I would mention it.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Dec 17, 2009, at 12:07 PM, Todd Volkert wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Tho has it been using "Pivot" or "Apache Pivot"? And how
> > long has msft
> > been using their "Pivot" (unregistered) mark?
> >
> >
> > It's been "Apache Pivot". As far as I can tell, Microsoft only
> > publicly announced their Pivot project in late November '09.
> >
> > Forgive my ignorance, but what's the process towards getting
> > this resolved? It stands to reason that we shouldn't migrate
> > our infrastructure and such until we make sure that we're ok to
> > keep the name "Apache Pivot", but how is that determination made?
> >
> > -T
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
Posted by Mark Miller <ma...@apache.org>.
Apache's TM attorney is either ridiculously cranky or has a delightful
sense of humor. I'm not sure which myself.
- Mark
Todd Volkert wrote:
> Didn't mean to offend, Larry - just trying to figure this situation out.
>
> -T
>
> On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 2:02 PM, Lawrence Rosen <lrosen@rosenlaw.com
> <ma...@rosenlaw.com>> wrote:
>
> WTF?
>
>
>
> ASF already has a trademark attorney. Me. Please tell your
> trademark lawyer friend to mind his own business. Say it
> politely. I'm sure his opinion wasn't meant to contradict
> mine—but it does.
>
>
>
> Did you or he write that absurd opinion on an Apple (TM)
> computer. Using Windows (TM)?
>
>
>
> /Larry
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Todd Volkert [mailto:tvolkert@gmail.com
> <ma...@gmail.com>]
> *Sent:* Thursday, December 17, 2009 10:50 AM
>
> *To:* legal-discuss@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>
> *Cc:* trademarks@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>
> *Subject:* Re: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
>
>
>
> Just talked to a trademark lawyer friend of mine, and he
> emphasized that you can't trademark a common word in the English
> language (like "Pivot") - you can trademark a sequence of words,
> like "Microsoft Pivot", a graphic, a jingle, etc. So what
> exactly did MS trademark -- "Microsoft Pivot"? If so, then I'd
> think we're in the clear to use "Apache Pivot"...
>
> -T
>
> On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 1:09 PM, Greg Brown <gkbrown@mac.com
> <ma...@mac.com>> wrote:
>
> FWIW, all of our public communications introduce the project as
> "Apache Pivot" but often later use the shortened "Pivot" form to
> avoid unnecessary verbosity. Not sure if this is relevant, but I
> thought I would mention it.
>
>
>
> On Dec 17, 2009, at 12:07 PM, Todd Volkert wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Tho has it been using "Pivot" or "Apache Pivot"? And how
> long has msft
> been using their "Pivot" (unregistered) mark?
>
>
> It's been "Apache Pivot". As far as I can tell, Microsoft only
> publicly announced their Pivot project in late November '09.
>
> Forgive my ignorance, but what's the process towards getting
> this resolved? It stands to reason that we shouldn't migrate
> our infrastructure and such until we make sure that we're ok to
> keep the name "Apache Pivot", but how is that determination made?
>
> -T
>
>
>
>
>
>
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RE: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
Posted by Lawrence Rosen <lr...@rosenlaw.com>.
Todd,
Understood, and I apologize to you for that.
FWIW, your attorney friend should have been more careful when he talked to
you. You're not expected to know--and I wouldn't have been so eager to jump
down your throat if you'd merely expressed your own opinion. I've become
sensitized to hearing absurd advice, particularly about open source but even
about more traditional IP subjects, from attorneys who should have studied
harder for the test. That part was just me being cranky.
/Larry
Lawrence Rosen
Rosenlaw & Einschlag, a technology law firm (www.rosenlaw.com)
3001 King Ranch Road, Ukiah, CA 95482
Office: 707-485-1242 Cell: 707-478-8932
Apache Software Foundation, member and counsel (www.apache.org)
Open Web Foundation, board member (www.openwebfoundation.org)
Stanford University, Instructor in Law
Author, Open Source Licensing: Software Freedom and Intellectual Property
Law (Prentice Hall 2004)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Todd Volkert [mailto:tvolkert@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 11:18 AM
> To: legal-discuss@apache.org
> Cc: trademarks@apache.org
> Subject: Re: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
>
> For what it's worth, Larry, I would have figured that Apple's trademark
> is
> on the logo. Here are other trademarks owned on "Apple" by other
> companies...
>
> http://www.trademarkia.com/apple-74034647.html
> http://www.trademarkia.com/apple-74362361.html
> http://www.trademarkia.com/apple-74473432.html
> http://www.trademarkia.com/apple-75434873.html
> ... list continues...
>
> So before you jump down my throat, try to see that from a layperson's
> perspective, it wouldn't seem like an absurd statement.
>
> -T
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 2:05 PM, Todd Volkert <tv...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Didn't mean to offend, Larry - just trying to figure this situation
> out.
> >
> > -T
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 2:02 PM, Lawrence Rosen
> <lr...@rosenlaw.com>wrote:
> >
> >> WTF?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ASF already has a trademark attorney. Me. Please tell your trademark
> >> lawyer friend to mind his own business. Say it politely. I'm sure
> his
> >> opinion wasn't meant to contradict mine-but it does.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Did you or he write that absurd opinion on an Apple (TM) computer.
> Using
> >> Windows (TM)?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> /Larry
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> *From:* Todd Volkert [mailto:tvolkert@gmail.com]
> >> *Sent:* Thursday, December 17, 2009 10:50 AM
> >>
> >> *To:* legal-discuss@apache.org
> >> *Cc:* trademarks@apache.org
> >> *Subject:* Re: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Just talked to a trademark lawyer friend of mine, and he emphasized
> that
> >> you can't trademark a common word in the English language (like
> "Pivot") -
> >> you can trademark a sequence of words, like "Microsoft Pivot", a
> graphic, a
> >> jingle, etc. So what exactly did MS trademark -- "Microsoft Pivot"?
> If so,
> >> then I'd think we're in the clear to use "Apache Pivot"...
> >>
> >> -T
> >>
> >> On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 1:09 PM, Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> FWIW, all of our public communications introduce the project as
> "Apache
> >> Pivot" but often later use the shortened "Pivot" form to avoid
> unnecessary
> >> verbosity. Not sure if this is relevant, but I thought I would
> mention it.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Dec 17, 2009, at 12:07 PM, Todd Volkert wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Tho has it been using "Pivot" or "Apache Pivot"? And how long has
> msft
> >> been using their "Pivot" (unregistered) mark?
> >>
> >>
> >> It's been "Apache Pivot". As far as I can tell, Microsoft only
> publicly
> >> announced their Pivot project in late November '09.
> >>
> >> Forgive my ignorance, but what's the process towards getting this
> >> resolved? It stands to reason that we shouldn't migrate our
> infrastructure
> >> and such until we make sure that we're ok to keep the name "Apache
> Pivot",
> >> but how is that determination made?
> >>
> >> -T
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
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Re: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
Posted by Todd Volkert <tv...@gmail.com>.
For what it's worth, Larry, I would have figured that Apple's trademark is
on the logo. Here are other trademarks owned on "Apple" by other
companies...
http://www.trademarkia.com/apple-74034647.html
http://www.trademarkia.com/apple-74362361.html
http://www.trademarkia.com/apple-74473432.html
http://www.trademarkia.com/apple-75434873.html
... list continues...
So before you jump down my throat, try to see that from a layperson's
perspective, it wouldn't seem like an absurd statement.
-T
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 2:05 PM, Todd Volkert <tv...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Didn't mean to offend, Larry - just trying to figure this situation out.
>
> -T
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 2:02 PM, Lawrence Rosen <lr...@rosenlaw.com>wrote:
>
>> WTF?
>>
>>
>>
>> ASF already has a trademark attorney. Me. Please tell your trademark
>> lawyer friend to mind his own business. Say it politely. I'm sure his
>> opinion wasn't meant to contradict mine—but it does.
>>
>>
>>
>> Did you or he write that absurd opinion on an Apple (TM) computer. Using
>> Windows (TM)?
>>
>>
>>
>> /Larry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Todd Volkert [mailto:tvolkert@gmail.com]
>> *Sent:* Thursday, December 17, 2009 10:50 AM
>>
>> *To:* legal-discuss@apache.org
>> *Cc:* trademarks@apache.org
>> *Subject:* Re: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
>>
>>
>>
>> Just talked to a trademark lawyer friend of mine, and he emphasized that
>> you can't trademark a common word in the English language (like "Pivot") -
>> you can trademark a sequence of words, like "Microsoft Pivot", a graphic, a
>> jingle, etc. So what exactly did MS trademark -- "Microsoft Pivot"? If so,
>> then I'd think we're in the clear to use "Apache Pivot"...
>>
>> -T
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 1:09 PM, Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com> wrote:
>>
>> FWIW, all of our public communications introduce the project as "Apache
>> Pivot" but often later use the shortened "Pivot" form to avoid unnecessary
>> verbosity. Not sure if this is relevant, but I thought I would mention it.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Dec 17, 2009, at 12:07 PM, Todd Volkert wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Tho has it been using "Pivot" or "Apache Pivot"? And how long has msft
>> been using their "Pivot" (unregistered) mark?
>>
>>
>> It's been "Apache Pivot". As far as I can tell, Microsoft only publicly
>> announced their Pivot project in late November '09.
>>
>> Forgive my ignorance, but what's the process towards getting this
>> resolved? It stands to reason that we shouldn't migrate our infrastructure
>> and such until we make sure that we're ok to keep the name "Apache Pivot",
>> but how is that determination made?
>>
>> -T
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Re: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
Posted by Todd Volkert <tv...@gmail.com>.
Didn't mean to offend, Larry - just trying to figure this situation out.
-T
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 2:02 PM, Lawrence Rosen <lr...@rosenlaw.com> wrote:
> WTF?
>
>
>
> ASF already has a trademark attorney. Me. Please tell your trademark lawyer
> friend to mind his own business. Say it politely. I'm sure his opinion
> wasn't meant to contradict mine—but it does.
>
>
>
> Did you or he write that absurd opinion on an Apple (TM) computer. Using
> Windows (TM)?
>
>
>
> /Larry
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Todd Volkert [mailto:tvolkert@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, December 17, 2009 10:50 AM
>
> *To:* legal-discuss@apache.org
> *Cc:* trademarks@apache.org
> *Subject:* Re: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
>
>
>
> Just talked to a trademark lawyer friend of mine, and he emphasized that
> you can't trademark a common word in the English language (like "Pivot") -
> you can trademark a sequence of words, like "Microsoft Pivot", a graphic, a
> jingle, etc. So what exactly did MS trademark -- "Microsoft Pivot"? If so,
> then I'd think we're in the clear to use "Apache Pivot"...
>
> -T
>
> On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 1:09 PM, Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com> wrote:
>
> FWIW, all of our public communications introduce the project as "Apache
> Pivot" but often later use the shortened "Pivot" form to avoid unnecessary
> verbosity. Not sure if this is relevant, but I thought I would mention it.
>
>
>
> On Dec 17, 2009, at 12:07 PM, Todd Volkert wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Tho has it been using "Pivot" or "Apache Pivot"? And how long has msft
> been using their "Pivot" (unregistered) mark?
>
>
> It's been "Apache Pivot". As far as I can tell, Microsoft only publicly
> announced their Pivot project in late November '09.
>
> Forgive my ignorance, but what's the process towards getting this
> resolved? It stands to reason that we shouldn't migrate our infrastructure
> and such until we make sure that we're ok to keep the name "Apache Pivot",
> but how is that determination made?
>
> -T
>
>
>
>
>
RE: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
Posted by Lawrence Rosen <lr...@rosenlaw.com>.
WTF?
ASF already has a trademark attorney. Me. Please tell your trademark lawyer
friend to mind his own business. Say it politely. I'm sure his opinion
wasn't meant to contradict mine-but it does.
Did you or he write that absurd opinion on an Apple (TM) computer. Using
Windows (TM)?
/Larry
From: Todd Volkert [mailto:tvolkert@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 10:50 AM
To: legal-discuss@apache.org
Cc: trademarks@apache.org
Subject: Re: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
Just talked to a trademark lawyer friend of mine, and he emphasized that you
can't trademark a common word in the English language (like "Pivot") - you
can trademark a sequence of words, like "Microsoft Pivot", a graphic, a
jingle, etc. So what exactly did MS trademark -- "Microsoft Pivot"? If so,
then I'd think we're in the clear to use "Apache Pivot"...
-T
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 1:09 PM, Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com> wrote:
FWIW, all of our public communications introduce the project as "Apache
Pivot" but often later use the shortened "Pivot" form to avoid unnecessary
verbosity. Not sure if this is relevant, but I thought I would mention it.
On Dec 17, 2009, at 12:07 PM, Todd Volkert wrote:
Tho has it been using "Pivot" or "Apache Pivot"? And how long has msft
been using their "Pivot" (unregistered) mark?
It's been "Apache Pivot". As far as I can tell, Microsoft only publicly
announced their Pivot project in late November '09.
Forgive my ignorance, but what's the process towards getting this resolved?
It stands to reason that we shouldn't migrate our infrastructure and such
until we make sure that we're ok to keep the name "Apache Pivot", but how is
that determination made?
-T
Re: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
Posted by Todd Volkert <tv...@gmail.com>.
Huh... it's like how TRW was granted a patent on geosynchronous orbit -
turns out you can patent gravity! I guess that's why I'm not a lawyer :)
So how do we proceed?
-T
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 1:53 PM, Justin Erenkrantz <ju...@erenkrantz.com>wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Todd Volkert <tv...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Just talked to a trademark lawyer friend of mine, and he emphasized that
> you
> > can't trademark a common word in the English language (like "Pivot") -
> you
> > can trademark a sequence of words, like "Microsoft Pivot", a graphic, a
> > jingle, etc. So what exactly did MS trademark -- "Microsoft Pivot"? If
> so,
> > then I'd think we're in the clear to use "Apache Pivot"...
>
> Microsoft has applied for a trademark for "Pivot" - see USPTO app
> 77859890 which you can find here:
>
> http://www.trademarkia.com/pivot-77859890.html
>
> HTH. -- justin
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
>
>
Re: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <ju...@erenkrantz.com>.
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Todd Volkert <tv...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just talked to a trademark lawyer friend of mine, and he emphasized that you
> can't trademark a common word in the English language (like "Pivot") - you
> can trademark a sequence of words, like "Microsoft Pivot", a graphic, a
> jingle, etc. So what exactly did MS trademark -- "Microsoft Pivot"? If so,
> then I'd think we're in the clear to use "Apache Pivot"...
Microsoft has applied for a trademark for "Pivot" - see USPTO app
77859890 which you can find here:
http://www.trademarkia.com/pivot-77859890.html
HTH. -- justin
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Re: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
Posted by Todd Volkert <tv...@gmail.com>.
Just talked to a trademark lawyer friend of mine, and he emphasized that you
can't trademark a common word in the English language (like "Pivot") - you
can trademark a sequence of words, like "Microsoft Pivot", a graphic, a
jingle, etc. So what exactly did MS trademark -- "Microsoft Pivot"? If so,
then I'd think we're in the clear to use "Apache Pivot"...
-T
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 1:09 PM, Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com> wrote:
> FWIW, all of our public communications introduce the project as "Apache
> Pivot" but often later use the shortened "Pivot" form to avoid unnecessary
> verbosity. Not sure if this is relevant, but I thought I would mention it.
>
> On Dec 17, 2009, at 12:07 PM, Todd Volkert wrote:
>
>
> Tho has it been using "Pivot" or "Apache Pivot"? And how long has msft
>> been using their "Pivot" (unregistered) mark?
>>
>
> It's been "Apache Pivot". As far as I can tell, Microsoft only publicly
> announced their Pivot project in late November '09.
>
> Forgive my ignorance, but what's the process towards getting this
> resolved? It stands to reason that we shouldn't migrate our infrastructure
> and such until we make sure that we're ok to keep the name "Apache Pivot",
> but how is that determination made?
>
> -T
>
>
>
Re: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
Posted by Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com>.
FWIW, all of our public communications introduce the project as "Apache Pivot" but often later use the shortened "Pivot" form to avoid unnecessary verbosity. Not sure if this is relevant, but I thought I would mention it.
On Dec 17, 2009, at 12:07 PM, Todd Volkert wrote:
>
> Tho has it been using "Pivot" or "Apache Pivot"? And how long has msft
> been using their "Pivot" (unregistered) mark?
>
> It's been "Apache Pivot". As far as I can tell, Microsoft only publicly announced their Pivot project in late November '09.
>
> Forgive my ignorance, but what's the process towards getting this resolved? It stands to reason that we shouldn't migrate our infrastructure and such until we make sure that we're ok to keep the name "Apache Pivot", but how is that determination made?
>
> -T
Re: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
Posted by Todd Volkert <tv...@gmail.com>.
> Tho has it been using "Pivot" or "Apache Pivot"? And how long has msft
> been using their "Pivot" (unregistered) mark?
>
It's been "Apache Pivot". As far as I can tell, Microsoft only publicly
announced their Pivot project in late November '09.
Forgive my ignorance, but what's the process towards getting this resolved?
It stands to reason that we shouldn't migrate our infrastructure and such
until we make sure that we're ok to keep the name "Apache Pivot", but how is
that determination made?
-T
Re: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
Quite possibly!
Tho has it been using "Pivot" or "Apache Pivot"? And how long has msft
been using their "Pivot" (unregistered) mark?
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 10:51, Todd Volkert <tv...@gmail.com> wrote:
> IANAL by any stretch of the imagination, but doesn't the fact that we've
> been in incubation since Jan '09 mean that we've been using an unregistered
> trademark on the project name and give us some ground on which to stand
> here?
> -T
>
> On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 10:31 AM, Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Apparently, Microsoft applied for a trademark on "Pivot" at the end of
>> October. That effectively puts the project on a collision course.
>> Legal can more definitively provide thoughts on this (for example,
>> maybe being strict about using "Apache Pivot" can steer us clear).
>>
>> It was also mentioned during the meeting that approaching Microsoft is
>> an option, to see whether they will take issue with our use of
>> "Pivot". They may also say there is no problem with "Apache Pivot",
>> but that they'll get huffy if there is ever a bare reference to
>> "Pivot".
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -g
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 09:06, Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com> wrote:
>> > Hi all,
>> > Based on some earlier discussion, it was our understanding that no
>> > further
>> > action was required regarding the Pivot project name; see this thread on
>> > legal-discuss (I haven't been able to locate the follow-up discussion on
>> > the
>> > trademarks list):
>> >
>> > http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/www-legal-discuss/200912.mbox/%3c168ef9ac0912031848w1996bbfp21913c2ec669e61b@mail.gmail.com%3e
>> > However, based on the attached board meeting summary, it seems as though
>> > this may have changed. If so, what are the current issues, and what are
>> > the
>> > next steps?
>> > Thanks for your help,
>> > Greg Brown
>> >
>> > Begin forwarded message:
>> >
>> > From: Jim Jagielski <ji...@apache.org>
>> > Date: December 17, 2009 8:15:52 AM EST
>> > To: committers@apache.org
>> > Subject: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
>> >
>> > The December board meeting took place on the 16th. The following
>> > directors
>> > were present:
>> >
>> > Shane Curcuru
>> > Doug Cutting
>> > Justin Erenkrantz
>> > Roy T. Fielding
>> > Jim Jagielski
>> > Geir Magnusson, Jr.
>> > Brett Porter
>> > Greg Stein
>> >
>> > and the following guests/officers were present:
>> >
>> > Sam Ruby
>> > J Aaron Farr
>> > Craig L Russell
>> > Gavin McDonald
>> >
>> > All of the received reports to the board were approved. The following
>> > reports were not received and are expected next month:
>> >
>> > Status report for the Apache iBATIS Project
>> > Status report for the Apache Santuario Project
>> > Status report for the Apache Web Services Project
>> >
>> > The following resolutions were passed unaminously:
>> >
>> > A. Establish the Apache Pivot Project (Greg Brown, VP)
>> > The PMC is tasked to work with the Branding Cmmt and the
>> > Legal Cmmt regarding the use of the name 'Pivot' due to
>> > potential conflict.
>> >
>> > B. Establish the Apache OpenWebBeans Project (Gurkan Erdogdu, VP)
>> >
>> > C. Appoint a Vice President of W3C Relations (Sam Ruby)
>> >
>> > D. Establish the Apache Axis Project (Glen Daniels, VP)
>> > The PMC should be aware that the name of the PMC was changed
>> > from 'Axis2' to 'Axis' and that the PMC is tasked with the
>> > responsibility for Axis1 and shepherding its transition to
>> > the Attic.
>> >
>> > The next board meeting will be on the 20th of January.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
>>
>
>
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Re: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
Posted by Todd Volkert <tv...@gmail.com>.
IANAL by any stretch of the imagination, but doesn't the fact that we've
been in incubation since Jan '09 mean that we've been using an unregistered
trademark on the project name and give us some ground on which to stand
here?
-T
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 10:31 AM, Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Apparently, Microsoft applied for a trademark on "Pivot" at the end of
> October. That effectively puts the project on a collision course.
> Legal can more definitively provide thoughts on this (for example,
> maybe being strict about using "Apache Pivot" can steer us clear).
>
> It was also mentioned during the meeting that approaching Microsoft is
> an option, to see whether they will take issue with our use of
> "Pivot". They may also say there is no problem with "Apache Pivot",
> but that they'll get huffy if there is ever a bare reference to
> "Pivot".
>
> Cheers,
> -g
>
> On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 09:06, Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com> wrote:
> > Hi all,
> > Based on some earlier discussion, it was our understanding that no
> further
> > action was required regarding the Pivot project name; see this thread on
> > legal-discuss (I haven't been able to locate the follow-up discussion on
> the
> > trademarks list):
> >
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/www-legal-discuss/200912.mbox/%3c168ef9ac0912031848w1996bbfp21913c2ec669e61b@mail.gmail.com%3e
> > However, based on the attached board meeting summary, it seems as though
> > this may have changed. If so, what are the current issues, and what are
> the
> > next steps?
> > Thanks for your help,
> > Greg Brown
> >
> > Begin forwarded message:
> >
> > From: Jim Jagielski <ji...@apache.org>
> > Date: December 17, 2009 8:15:52 AM EST
> > To: committers@apache.org
> > Subject: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
> >
> > The December board meeting took place on the 16th. The following
> directors
> > were present:
> >
> > Shane Curcuru
> > Doug Cutting
> > Justin Erenkrantz
> > Roy T. Fielding
> > Jim Jagielski
> > Geir Magnusson, Jr.
> > Brett Porter
> > Greg Stein
> >
> > and the following guests/officers were present:
> >
> > Sam Ruby
> > J Aaron Farr
> > Craig L Russell
> > Gavin McDonald
> >
> > All of the received reports to the board were approved. The following
> > reports were not received and are expected next month:
> >
> > Status report for the Apache iBATIS Project
> > Status report for the Apache Santuario Project
> > Status report for the Apache Web Services Project
> >
> > The following resolutions were passed unaminously:
> >
> > A. Establish the Apache Pivot Project (Greg Brown, VP)
> > The PMC is tasked to work with the Branding Cmmt and the
> > Legal Cmmt regarding the use of the name 'Pivot' due to
> > potential conflict.
> >
> > B. Establish the Apache OpenWebBeans Project (Gurkan Erdogdu, VP)
> >
> > C. Appoint a Vice President of W3C Relations (Sam Ruby)
> >
> > D. Establish the Apache Axis Project (Glen Daniels, VP)
> > The PMC should be aware that the name of the PMC was changed
> > from 'Axis2' to 'Axis' and that the PMC is tasked with the
> > responsibility for Axis1 and shepherding its transition to
> > the Attic.
> >
> > The next board meeting will be on the 20th of January.
> >
> >
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
>
>
Re: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
Apparently, Microsoft applied for a trademark on "Pivot" at the end of
October. That effectively puts the project on a collision course.
Legal can more definitively provide thoughts on this (for example,
maybe being strict about using "Apache Pivot" can steer us clear).
It was also mentioned during the meeting that approaching Microsoft is
an option, to see whether they will take issue with our use of
"Pivot". They may also say there is no problem with "Apache Pivot",
but that they'll get huffy if there is ever a bare reference to
"Pivot".
Cheers,
-g
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 09:06, Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
> Based on some earlier discussion, it was our understanding that no further
> action was required regarding the Pivot project name; see this thread on
> legal-discuss (I haven't been able to locate the follow-up discussion on the
> trademarks list):
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/www-legal-discuss/200912.mbox/%3c168ef9ac0912031848w1996bbfp21913c2ec669e61b@mail.gmail.com%3e
> However, based on the attached board meeting summary, it seems as though
> this may have changed. If so, what are the current issues, and what are the
> next steps?
> Thanks for your help,
> Greg Brown
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> From: Jim Jagielski <ji...@apache.org>
> Date: December 17, 2009 8:15:52 AM EST
> To: committers@apache.org
> Subject: ASF Board Meeting Summary - December 16, 2009
>
> The December board meeting took place on the 16th. The following directors
> were present:
>
> Shane Curcuru
> Doug Cutting
> Justin Erenkrantz
> Roy T. Fielding
> Jim Jagielski
> Geir Magnusson, Jr.
> Brett Porter
> Greg Stein
>
> and the following guests/officers were present:
>
> Sam Ruby
> J Aaron Farr
> Craig L Russell
> Gavin McDonald
>
> All of the received reports to the board were approved. The following
> reports were not received and are expected next month:
>
> Status report for the Apache iBATIS Project
> Status report for the Apache Santuario Project
> Status report for the Apache Web Services Project
>
> The following resolutions were passed unaminously:
>
> A. Establish the Apache Pivot Project (Greg Brown, VP)
> The PMC is tasked to work with the Branding Cmmt and the
> Legal Cmmt regarding the use of the name 'Pivot' due to
> potential conflict.
>
> B. Establish the Apache OpenWebBeans Project (Gurkan Erdogdu, VP)
>
> C. Appoint a Vice President of W3C Relations (Sam Ruby)
>
> D. Establish the Apache Axis Project (Glen Daniels, VP)
> The PMC should be aware that the name of the PMC was changed
> from 'Axis2' to 'Axis' and that the PMC is tasked with the
> responsibility for Axis1 and shepherding its transition to
> the Attic.
>
> The next board meeting will be on the 20th of January.
>
>
>
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