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Posted to dev@community.apache.org by Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com> on 2019/12/03 18:44:20 UTC
Re: Apache Local Community (ALC) as a ComDev Initiative
While I'm excited to see this kind of local ambassador program springing
up, I want to be sure that we are not having people use the Apache name
to promote messages that are not *our* message.
Having local groups of enthusiasts having periodic meetings is great.
What I'm asking is what assurances we want to have in place that the
messaging at these events is accurate?
In the past, when we have had an official (for whatever value of
"official" we want to go with) Apache-sponsored thing, we require a
member to be involved, so that we know that the message is from someone
who actually knows what the message is. What I'm seeing here is a
free-form "create a group by asking nicely" without any member, or even
committer involved. And the events, and their messaging, are then being
promoted on an .apache.org website, which means that they are an
official statement of the Foundation.
I'm feeling a little weird about that.
I agree with Isaac, in that we don't want to set up a lengthy list of
rules for who and how and what, I think that we need to be cautious
about handing out our name, and our reputation, to just anybody that
asks for it. Indeed, it's really kind of critical that we don't. Our
name, and our reputation, are really the only things that we have, and
we simply cannot have unaffiliated groups using our name to promote
messages that are not Approved By Apache.
Please note that I'm not saying that this has happened thus far. I don't
know that, having not attended any of these events. But we have a long
history of people using our name to promote their own agendas, and we
*must* not allow that.
On 11/19/19 1:24 PM, Sharan Foga wrote:
> Hi All
>
> Thanks Swapnil for the links about the ALC and I have re-read through the threads. I remembered sensing some push back on the proposed organisational hierarchy and see that has now been removed. Following on from that there was the comment of ALC being managed either within ComDev or VP Conferences.
>
> I dont think this fits with Conferences as it is more like a local meetup type event, which means outreach, which to me means ComDev.
>
> So now we need to look at how to manage the integration of the ALC initiative. Based on Sally's feedback that means announcing and promoting the initiative to a wider audience. I can see some key actions already
>
> - announce the ALC as an initiative (Swapnil we can probably create this from your emails about it. Can you draft something? )
> - promote the next event (include it on the Events calendar, tweet via @ApacheCommunity and include a reminder on ComDev)
> - plan for future events (ALC Indore seems to be having events every 1 - 2 months, so let's put them on the calendar and prepare for it.)
> - funding (I am not sure if ALC is getting any funding as part of ASF small events, or it is being covered from a third party.? BTW ComDev also has a budget that could be used to help with stickers, swag etc)
> - grow the ALC community (several people said they were interested in setting up other ALCs but so far none have. This could be because of the lack of announcement of the initiative - so lets focus on that first)
>
> I'm happy to get feedback and comments on this so please feel free to respond if you have any ideas or suggestions.
>
> Thanks
> Sharan
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>
--
Rich Bowen - rbowen@rcbowen.com
http://rcbowen.com/
@rbowen
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Re: Apache Local Community (ALC) as a ComDev Initiative
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@outlook.com>.
Appoliges. My spam folder seems to be getting over zealous. I need to do some work on that thanks for flagging.
---
Sent from my phone, you know what that means - sorry
________________________________
From: Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com>
Sent: Friday, December 6, 2019 11:26:54 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>; Ross Gardler <rg...@outlook.com>
Cc: Sharan Foga <sh...@apache.org>
Subject: Re: Apache Local Community (ALC) as a ComDev Initiative
On 12/6/19 1:15 PM, Ross Gardler wrote:
> There should not be a discussion on a prepare list. Please bring that discussion here. This is a core part of the Apache Way.
The discussion is now actively ongoing, on this list. And Swapnil (and
others) are participating in that thread. The private thread has ceased,
and almost everything that was said there has now been repeated here, in
public.
I started the private thread, and I have apologized for doing so.
We do, indeed, have a pattern of, as Greg recently said, retreating to
the private list to avoid controversy. The reminders are always needed,
and appreciated.
> ________________________________
> From: Swapnil M Mane <sw...@apache.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 4, 2019 12:06:31 AM
> To: dev <de...@community.apache.org>
> Cc: Sharan Foga <sh...@apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Apache Local Community (ALC) as a ComDev Initiative
>
> Thank you so much Issac and Rich for sharing your kind thoughts.
> I have read your every input minutely and started a discussion on the
> private ComDev list, will keep you posted.
>
> Thanks again!
>
> Best regards,
> Swapnil M Mane,
> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.apache.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C3a9e45c8bfb741d0ad0808d77a82430e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637112572193814046&sdata=%2FMfSJoWgQMRuLEjmhge5AmTBs%2B%2FyuB2trChrNNzLGpo%3D&reserved=0<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.apache.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C3a9e45c8bfb741d0ad0808d77a82430e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637112572193814046&sdata=s1J6TMmZ2ZI5OsH%2FQZeSdwkcIjlDxHQiE36g9rBVeHM%3D&reserved=0>
>
> On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 12:14 AM Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com> wrote:
>>
>> While I'm excited to see this kind of local ambassador program springing
>> up, I want to be sure that we are not having people use the Apache name
>> to promote messages that are not *our* message.
>>
>> Having local groups of enthusiasts having periodic meetings is great.
>> What I'm asking is what assurances we want to have in place that the
>> messaging at these events is accurate?
>>
>> In the past, when we have had an official (for whatever value of
>> "official" we want to go with) Apache-sponsored thing, we require a
>> member to be involved, so that we know that the message is from someone
>> who actually knows what the message is. What I'm seeing here is a
>> free-form "create a group by asking nicely" without any member, or even
>> committer involved. And the events, and their messaging, are then being
>> promoted on an .apache.org website, which means that they are an
>> official statement of the Foundation.
>>
>> I'm feeling a little weird about that.
>>
>> I agree with Isaac, in that we don't want to set up a lengthy list of
>> rules for who and how and what, I think that we need to be cautious
>> about handing out our name, and our reputation, to just anybody that
>> asks for it. Indeed, it's really kind of critical that we don't. Our
>> name, and our reputation, are really the only things that we have, and
>> we simply cannot have unaffiliated groups using our name to promote
>> messages that are not Approved By Apache.
>>
>> Please note that I'm not saying that this has happened thus far. I don't
>> know that, having not attended any of these events. But we have a long
>> history of people using our name to promote their own agendas, and we
>> *must* not allow that.
>>
>>
>> On 11/19/19 1:24 PM, Sharan Foga wrote:
>>> Hi All
>>>
>>> Thanks Swapnil for the links about the ALC and I have re-read through the threads. I remembered sensing some push back on the proposed organisational hierarchy and see that has now been removed. Following on from that there was the comment of ALC being managed either within ComDev or VP Conferences.
>>>
>>> I dont think this fits with Conferences as it is more like a local meetup type event, which means outreach, which to me means ComDev.
>>>
>>> So now we need to look at how to manage the integration of the ALC initiative. Based on Sally's feedback that means announcing and promoting the initiative to a wider audience. I can see some key actions already
>>>
>>> - announce the ALC as an initiative (Swapnil we can probably create this from your emails about it. Can you draft something? )
>>> - promote the next event (include it on the Events calendar, tweet via @ApacheCommunity and include a reminder on ComDev)
>>> - plan for future events (ALC Indore seems to be having events every 1 - 2 months, so let's put them on the calendar and prepare for it.)
>>> - funding (I am not sure if ALC is getting any funding as part of ASF small events, or it is being covered from a third party.? BTW ComDev also has a budget that could be used to help with stickers, swag etc)
>>> - grow the ALC community (several people said they were interested in setting up other ALCs but so far none have. This could be because of the lack of announcement of the initiative - so lets focus on that first)
>>>
>>> I'm happy to get feedback and comments on this so please feel free to respond if you have any ideas or suggestions.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Sharan
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Rich Bowen - rbowen@rcbowen.com
>> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Frcbowen.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C3a9e45c8bfb741d0ad0808d77a82430e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637112572193824057&sdata=5MzGeA3rG5ai4qR2k8b6Z5zUF%2FV%2Bg7vyqcuI1RkyEgU%3D&reserved=0
>> @rbowen
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>
>
--
Rich Bowen - rbowen@rcbowen.com
https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Frcbowen.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C3a9e45c8bfb741d0ad0808d77a82430e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637112572193824057&sdata=5MzGeA3rG5ai4qR2k8b6Z5zUF%2FV%2Bg7vyqcuI1RkyEgU%3D&reserved=0
@rbowen
Re: Apache Local Community (ALC) as a ComDev Initiative
Posted by Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com>.
On 12/6/19 1:15 PM, Ross Gardler wrote:
> There should not be a discussion on a prepare list. Please bring that discussion here. This is a core part of the Apache Way.
The discussion is now actively ongoing, on this list. And Swapnil (and
others) are participating in that thread. The private thread has ceased,
and almost everything that was said there has now been repeated here, in
public.
I started the private thread, and I have apologized for doing so.
We do, indeed, have a pattern of, as Greg recently said, retreating to
the private list to avoid controversy. The reminders are always needed,
and appreciated.
> ________________________________
> From: Swapnil M Mane <sw...@apache.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 4, 2019 12:06:31 AM
> To: dev <de...@community.apache.org>
> Cc: Sharan Foga <sh...@apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Apache Local Community (ALC) as a ComDev Initiative
>
> Thank you so much Issac and Rich for sharing your kind thoughts.
> I have read your every input minutely and started a discussion on the
> private ComDev list, will keep you posted.
>
> Thanks again!
>
> Best regards,
> Swapnil M Mane,
> www.apache.org<http://www.apache.org>
>
> On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 12:14 AM Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com> wrote:
>>
>> While I'm excited to see this kind of local ambassador program springing
>> up, I want to be sure that we are not having people use the Apache name
>> to promote messages that are not *our* message.
>>
>> Having local groups of enthusiasts having periodic meetings is great.
>> What I'm asking is what assurances we want to have in place that the
>> messaging at these events is accurate?
>>
>> In the past, when we have had an official (for whatever value of
>> "official" we want to go with) Apache-sponsored thing, we require a
>> member to be involved, so that we know that the message is from someone
>> who actually knows what the message is. What I'm seeing here is a
>> free-form "create a group by asking nicely" without any member, or even
>> committer involved. And the events, and their messaging, are then being
>> promoted on an .apache.org website, which means that they are an
>> official statement of the Foundation.
>>
>> I'm feeling a little weird about that.
>>
>> I agree with Isaac, in that we don't want to set up a lengthy list of
>> rules for who and how and what, I think that we need to be cautious
>> about handing out our name, and our reputation, to just anybody that
>> asks for it. Indeed, it's really kind of critical that we don't. Our
>> name, and our reputation, are really the only things that we have, and
>> we simply cannot have unaffiliated groups using our name to promote
>> messages that are not Approved By Apache.
>>
>> Please note that I'm not saying that this has happened thus far. I don't
>> know that, having not attended any of these events. But we have a long
>> history of people using our name to promote their own agendas, and we
>> *must* not allow that.
>>
>>
>> On 11/19/19 1:24 PM, Sharan Foga wrote:
>>> Hi All
>>>
>>> Thanks Swapnil for the links about the ALC and I have re-read through the threads. I remembered sensing some push back on the proposed organisational hierarchy and see that has now been removed. Following on from that there was the comment of ALC being managed either within ComDev or VP Conferences.
>>>
>>> I dont think this fits with Conferences as it is more like a local meetup type event, which means outreach, which to me means ComDev.
>>>
>>> So now we need to look at how to manage the integration of the ALC initiative. Based on Sally's feedback that means announcing and promoting the initiative to a wider audience. I can see some key actions already
>>>
>>> - announce the ALC as an initiative (Swapnil we can probably create this from your emails about it. Can you draft something? )
>>> - promote the next event (include it on the Events calendar, tweet via @ApacheCommunity and include a reminder on ComDev)
>>> - plan for future events (ALC Indore seems to be having events every 1 - 2 months, so let's put them on the calendar and prepare for it.)
>>> - funding (I am not sure if ALC is getting any funding as part of ASF small events, or it is being covered from a third party.? BTW ComDev also has a budget that could be used to help with stickers, swag etc)
>>> - grow the ALC community (several people said they were interested in setting up other ALCs but so far none have. This could be because of the lack of announcement of the initiative - so lets focus on that first)
>>>
>>> I'm happy to get feedback and comments on this so please feel free to respond if you have any ideas or suggestions.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Sharan
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Rich Bowen - rbowen@rcbowen.com
>> http://rcbowen.com/
>> @rbowen
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>
>
--
Rich Bowen - rbowen@rcbowen.com
http://rcbowen.com/
@rbowen
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
Re: Apache Local Community (ALC) as a ComDev Initiative
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@outlook.com>.
There should not be a discussion on a prepare list. Please bring that discussion here. This is a core part of the Apache Way.
---
Sent from my phone, you know what that means - sorry
________________________________
From: Swapnil M Mane <sw...@apache.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 4, 2019 12:06:31 AM
To: dev <de...@community.apache.org>
Cc: Sharan Foga <sh...@apache.org>
Subject: Re: Apache Local Community (ALC) as a ComDev Initiative
Thank you so much Issac and Rich for sharing your kind thoughts.
I have read your every input minutely and started a discussion on the
private ComDev list, will keep you posted.
Thanks again!
Best regards,
Swapnil M Mane,
www.apache.org<http://www.apache.org>
On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 12:14 AM Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com> wrote:
>
> While I'm excited to see this kind of local ambassador program springing
> up, I want to be sure that we are not having people use the Apache name
> to promote messages that are not *our* message.
>
> Having local groups of enthusiasts having periodic meetings is great.
> What I'm asking is what assurances we want to have in place that the
> messaging at these events is accurate?
>
> In the past, when we have had an official (for whatever value of
> "official" we want to go with) Apache-sponsored thing, we require a
> member to be involved, so that we know that the message is from someone
> who actually knows what the message is. What I'm seeing here is a
> free-form "create a group by asking nicely" without any member, or even
> committer involved. And the events, and their messaging, are then being
> promoted on an .apache.org website, which means that they are an
> official statement of the Foundation.
>
> I'm feeling a little weird about that.
>
> I agree with Isaac, in that we don't want to set up a lengthy list of
> rules for who and how and what, I think that we need to be cautious
> about handing out our name, and our reputation, to just anybody that
> asks for it. Indeed, it's really kind of critical that we don't. Our
> name, and our reputation, are really the only things that we have, and
> we simply cannot have unaffiliated groups using our name to promote
> messages that are not Approved By Apache.
>
> Please note that I'm not saying that this has happened thus far. I don't
> know that, having not attended any of these events. But we have a long
> history of people using our name to promote their own agendas, and we
> *must* not allow that.
>
>
> On 11/19/19 1:24 PM, Sharan Foga wrote:
> > Hi All
> >
> > Thanks Swapnil for the links about the ALC and I have re-read through the threads. I remembered sensing some push back on the proposed organisational hierarchy and see that has now been removed. Following on from that there was the comment of ALC being managed either within ComDev or VP Conferences.
> >
> > I dont think this fits with Conferences as it is more like a local meetup type event, which means outreach, which to me means ComDev.
> >
> > So now we need to look at how to manage the integration of the ALC initiative. Based on Sally's feedback that means announcing and promoting the initiative to a wider audience. I can see some key actions already
> >
> > - announce the ALC as an initiative (Swapnil we can probably create this from your emails about it. Can you draft something? )
> > - promote the next event (include it on the Events calendar, tweet via @ApacheCommunity and include a reminder on ComDev)
> > - plan for future events (ALC Indore seems to be having events every 1 - 2 months, so let's put them on the calendar and prepare for it.)
> > - funding (I am not sure if ALC is getting any funding as part of ASF small events, or it is being covered from a third party.? BTW ComDev also has a budget that could be used to help with stickers, swag etc)
> > - grow the ALC community (several people said they were interested in setting up other ALCs but so far none have. This could be because of the lack of announcement of the initiative - so lets focus on that first)
> >
> > I'm happy to get feedback and comments on this so please feel free to respond if you have any ideas or suggestions.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Sharan
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> >
>
> --
> Rich Bowen - rbowen@rcbowen.com
> http://rcbowen.com/
> @rbowen
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
Re: Apache Local Community (ALC) as a ComDev Initiative
Posted by Swapnil M Mane <sw...@apache.org>.
Thank you so much Issac and Rich for sharing your kind thoughts.
I have read your every input minutely and started a discussion on the
private ComDev list, will keep you posted.
Thanks again!
Best regards,
Swapnil M Mane,
www.apache.org
On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 12:14 AM Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com> wrote:
>
> While I'm excited to see this kind of local ambassador program springing
> up, I want to be sure that we are not having people use the Apache name
> to promote messages that are not *our* message.
>
> Having local groups of enthusiasts having periodic meetings is great.
> What I'm asking is what assurances we want to have in place that the
> messaging at these events is accurate?
>
> In the past, when we have had an official (for whatever value of
> "official" we want to go with) Apache-sponsored thing, we require a
> member to be involved, so that we know that the message is from someone
> who actually knows what the message is. What I'm seeing here is a
> free-form "create a group by asking nicely" without any member, or even
> committer involved. And the events, and their messaging, are then being
> promoted on an .apache.org website, which means that they are an
> official statement of the Foundation.
>
> I'm feeling a little weird about that.
>
> I agree with Isaac, in that we don't want to set up a lengthy list of
> rules for who and how and what, I think that we need to be cautious
> about handing out our name, and our reputation, to just anybody that
> asks for it. Indeed, it's really kind of critical that we don't. Our
> name, and our reputation, are really the only things that we have, and
> we simply cannot have unaffiliated groups using our name to promote
> messages that are not Approved By Apache.
>
> Please note that I'm not saying that this has happened thus far. I don't
> know that, having not attended any of these events. But we have a long
> history of people using our name to promote their own agendas, and we
> *must* not allow that.
>
>
> On 11/19/19 1:24 PM, Sharan Foga wrote:
> > Hi All
> >
> > Thanks Swapnil for the links about the ALC and I have re-read through the threads. I remembered sensing some push back on the proposed organisational hierarchy and see that has now been removed. Following on from that there was the comment of ALC being managed either within ComDev or VP Conferences.
> >
> > I dont think this fits with Conferences as it is more like a local meetup type event, which means outreach, which to me means ComDev.
> >
> > So now we need to look at how to manage the integration of the ALC initiative. Based on Sally's feedback that means announcing and promoting the initiative to a wider audience. I can see some key actions already
> >
> > - announce the ALC as an initiative (Swapnil we can probably create this from your emails about it. Can you draft something? )
> > - promote the next event (include it on the Events calendar, tweet via @ApacheCommunity and include a reminder on ComDev)
> > - plan for future events (ALC Indore seems to be having events every 1 - 2 months, so let's put them on the calendar and prepare for it.)
> > - funding (I am not sure if ALC is getting any funding as part of ASF small events, or it is being covered from a third party.? BTW ComDev also has a budget that could be used to help with stickers, swag etc)
> > - grow the ALC community (several people said they were interested in setting up other ALCs but so far none have. This could be because of the lack of announcement of the initiative - so lets focus on that first)
> >
> > I'm happy to get feedback and comments on this so please feel free to respond if you have any ideas or suggestions.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Sharan
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> >
>
> --
> Rich Bowen - rbowen@rcbowen.com
> http://rcbowen.com/
> @rbowen
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org