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Posted to dev@openoffice.apache.org by Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com> on 2015/08/21 22:57:59 UTC
help needed on ODF standard for "auto" indent for paragraphs
This is in regard to issue
https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=126476
I can't easily locate what the ODF 1.2 standard is on calculation for a
first line auto indent for a paragraph. Well I found this --
http://officeopenxml.com/WPindentation.php
but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. :/
In any case, if the standard is consistent regardless of font, it seems
our calcs may be incorrect for some Asian fonts (maybe encoding factors
are not correctly taken into account) and that is the reason the patch
was submitted for this issue. It would be nice if this calculation did
happen correctly so users would not have to manually adjust the indent
for paragraph first line.
--
--------------------------------------------
MzK
“The journey of a thousand miles begins
with a single step.”
--Lao Tzu
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Re: help needed on ODF standard for "auto" indent for paragraphs
Posted by Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com>.
On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 3:23 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton <dennis.hamilton@acm.org
> wrote:
> I suspect the Roman alphabet, conventional-font space-/indent-sizing is
> inapplicable for some Asian languages. (I hope the Asian setting is
> specifically for CJK (Chinese, Japanese, Korean) or we could be having
> problems with some very complex language scripts as well.
>
> Rory, I don't believe "automatic" is on by default, so someone must be
> defining styles this way, you think?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rory O'Farrell [mailto:ofarrwrk@iol.ie]
> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2015 14:20
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: help needed on ODF standard for "auto" indent for paragraphs
>
> On Fri, 21 Aug 2015 13:57:59 -0700
> Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > This is in regard to issue
> > https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=126476
> >
> > I can't easily locate what the ODF 1.2 standard is on calculation for a
> > first line auto indent for a paragraph. Well I found this --
> > http://officeopenxml.com/WPindentation.php
> >
> > but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. :/
> >
> > In any case, if the standard is consistent regardless of font, it seems
> > our calcs may be incorrect for some Asian fonts (maybe encoding factors
> > are not correctly taken into account) and that is the reason the patch
> > was submitted for this issue. It would be nice if this calculation did
> > happen correctly so users would not have to manually adjust the indent
> > for paragraph first line.
> >
>
> Kay,
>
> Merely for information, the printing standard I grew up with is that the
> usual indent for a paragraph in body type is one em, that is on 12 pt type,
> 12 pts, 18 pt type, 18 pts etc. I believe this is the convention followed
> in OO's Paragraph style definition on the Indents and Spacing tab, when
> "Automatic" is checked for first line indentation.
>
> If you need references for the one em indent I can provide them.
>
> Rory
>
>
> --
> Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
>
Thanks to both of you. The situation, as you can see from the issue, is
we've had a patch submitted to deal specifically for CJK. But I wonder how
applicable this is for other character sets. This is why I'm looking for a
calc standard on this. If we could isolate that, we could track down the
calculations we have now and try to determine what the problem is.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MzK
“The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.”
--Lao Tzu
Re: help needed on ODF standard for "auto" indent for paragraphs
Posted by Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com>.
On 08/22/2015 08:15 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> In RTL (as well as TTB and BTT) the indentation will typically be in
> the reading direction.
>
> In future releases of Apache OpenOffice, the Chinese case is going to
> use double-character indentation when automatic indentation is
> specified in the paragraph style. The change is also being made in
> LibreOffice, so there will be interchange compatibility.
>
> Microsoft Office evidently has no automatic indentation, so there is
> nothing to coordinate there. OpenOffice documents that are
> interchanged in .doc or .odt format will show up in Microsoft Office
> Word with no indentation on those paragraphs specified to have
> automatic indentation in OpenOffice.
>
> The assumption with regard to legacy breakage of ODF document
> presentation is that there is little use of auto-indentation in
> existing Chinese ODF documents. That is because that indentation
> does not satisfy the understood and widely-employed indentation style
> that would be honored in important documents.
>
> This is now covered at
> <https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=126476>.
>
> If anyone has a solid concrete objection to why this would be
> unacceptably breaking, we need to know that quickly before
> LibreOffice and OpenOffice reflect this change in distributed
> updates.
>
> - Dennis
This patch by Mark Hung is now committed. Additional testing can be done
from buildbot builds which run later tonight.
Additional findings/comments should be made on the issue.
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Rory O'Farrell
> [mailto:ofarrwrk@iol.ie] Sent: Friday, August 21, 2015 23:37 To:
> dev@openoffice.apache.org Subject: Re: help needed on ODF standard
> for "auto" indent for paragraphs
>
> On Fri, 21 Aug 2015 15:23:22 -0700 "Dennis E. Hamilton"
> <de...@acm.org> wrote:
>
> [ ... ]
>
> I cannot answer for what happens when using R to L type or what (if
> any) is the typesetting "norm" for such languages. I'll root around
> later today to see if I can come up with anything, but I'm going
> offline shortly to do Saturday things.
>
> Rory
>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Rory O'Farrell [mailto:ofarrwrk@iol.ie]
>> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2015 14:20 To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: help needed on ODF standard for "auto" indent for
>> paragraphs
>>
>> On Fri, 21 Aug 2015 13:57:59 -0700 Kay Schenk
>> <ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> This is in regard to issue
>>> https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=126476
>>>
>>> I can't easily locate what the ODF 1.2 standard is on calculation
>>> for a first line auto indent for a paragraph. Well I found this
>>> -- http://officeopenxml.com/WPindentation.php
>>>
>>> but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. :/
>>>
>>> In any case, if the standard is consistent regardless of font, it
>>> seems our calcs may be incorrect for some Asian fonts (maybe
>>> encoding factors are not correctly taken into account) and that
>>> is the reason the patch was submitted for this issue. It would be
>>> nice if this calculation did happen correctly so users would not
>>> have to manually adjust the indent for paragraph first line.
>>>
>>
>> Kay,
>>
>> Merely for information, the printing standard I grew up with is
>> that the usual indent for a paragraph in body type is one em, that
>> is on 12 pt type, 12 pts, 18 pt type, 18 pts etc. I believe this
>> is the convention followed in OO's Paragraph style definition on
>> the Indents and Spacing tab, when "Automatic" is checked for first
>> line indentation.
>>
>> If you need references for the one em indent I can provide them.
>>
>> Rory
>>
>>
>> -- Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
--
--------------------------------------------
MzK
“The journey of a thousand miles begins
with a single step.”
--Lao Tzu
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
RE: help needed on ODF standard for "auto" indent for paragraphs
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
In RTL (as well as TTB and BTT) the indentation will typically be in the reading direction.
In future releases of Apache OpenOffice, the Chinese case is going to use double-character indentation when automatic indentation is specified in the paragraph style. The change is also being made in LibreOffice, so there will be interchange compatibility.
Microsoft Office evidently has no automatic indentation, so there is nothing to coordinate there. OpenOffice documents that are interchanged in .doc or .odt format will show up in Microsoft Office Word with no indentation on those paragraphs specified to have automatic indentation in OpenOffice.
The assumption with regard to legacy breakage of ODF document presentation is that there is little use of auto-indentation in existing Chinese ODF documents. That is because that indentation does not satisfy the understood and widely-employed indentation style that would be honored in important documents.
This is now covered at <https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=126476>.
If anyone has a solid concrete objection to why this would be unacceptably breaking, we need to know that quickly before LibreOffice and OpenOffice reflect this change in distributed updates.
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Rory O'Farrell [mailto:ofarrwrk@iol.ie]
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2015 23:37
To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
Subject: Re: help needed on ODF standard for "auto" indent for paragraphs
On Fri, 21 Aug 2015 15:23:22 -0700
"Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org> wrote:
[ ... ]
I cannot answer for what happens when using R to L type or what (if any) is the typesetting "norm" for such languages. I'll root around later today to see if I can come up with anything, but I'm going offline shortly to do Saturday things.
Rory
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Rory O'Farrell [mailto:ofarrwrk@iol.ie]
> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2015 14:20
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: help needed on ODF standard for "auto" indent for paragraphs
>
> On Fri, 21 Aug 2015 13:57:59 -0700
> Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > This is in regard to issue
> > https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=126476
> >
> > I can't easily locate what the ODF 1.2 standard is on calculation for a
> > first line auto indent for a paragraph. Well I found this --
> > http://officeopenxml.com/WPindentation.php
> >
> > but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. :/
> >
> > In any case, if the standard is consistent regardless of font, it seems
> > our calcs may be incorrect for some Asian fonts (maybe encoding factors
> > are not correctly taken into account) and that is the reason the patch
> > was submitted for this issue. It would be nice if this calculation did
> > happen correctly so users would not have to manually adjust the indent
> > for paragraph first line.
> >
>
> Kay,
>
> Merely for information, the printing standard I grew up with is that the usual indent for a paragraph in body type is one em, that is on 12 pt type, 12 pts, 18 pt type, 18 pts etc. I believe this is the convention followed in OO's Paragraph style definition on the Indents and Spacing tab, when "Automatic" is checked for first line indentation.
>
> If you need references for the one em indent I can provide them.
>
> Rory
>
>
> --
> Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
>
--
Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
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RE: help needed on ODF standard for "auto" indent for paragraphs
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
You can find the width that OpenOffice uses in the patch that is provided at
<https://bz.apache.org/ooo/attachment.cgi?id=84886&action=diff>.
If auto-indent is set, nFirstLineOfs = GetFnt.GetSize(GetFnt.GetActual).Height.
(in highly-simplified Java form for clarity).
Recall that the ODF 1.2 specification specifies that the width of the indent is a function of the height of the font. Whether that is the equivalent of 1 em for the font involved is a different question.
An easy way to see if it is or not is to make test documents that use 1 em dashes at the beginning of a paragraph and the paragraph's second line and see how things work for Roman character-set languages :).
Whatever it is, it is what is used in the implementation and messing with that seems like too much of a breaking change :).
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Kay Schenk [mailto:kay.schenk@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2015 09:20
To: OOo Apache <de...@openoffice.apache.org>
Subject: Re: help needed on ODF standard for "auto" indent for paragraphs
On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 11:37 PM, Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie> wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Aug 2015 15:23:22 -0700
> "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org> wrote:
>
> > I suspect the Roman alphabet, conventional-font space-/indent-sizing is
> inapplicable for some Asian languages. (I hope the Asian setting is
> specifically for CJK (Chinese, Japanese, Korean) or we could be having
> problems with some very complex language scripts as well.
> >
> > Rory, I don't believe "automatic" is on by default, so someone must be
> defining styles this way, you think?
>
> You are right, "Automatic" first line indent is not on by default. The
> default condition is that first line indent is selected as zero (i.e. no
> indent), as are the indents before and after every line of the paragraph; I
> think this is reasonable behavour, If "Automatic" is checked, then the 1
> em indent is applied i.e., an indent of the type size. The Help file says
> "Automatically indents a paragraph according to the font size and the line
> spacing. The setting in the First Line box is ignored."
>
I'm not really sure this auto indent is 1 em. This is really the heart of
my question. What ist the calculation for this? OK, I will investigate
further.
Thank you for your response.
>
> The current fashion in much in-house writing is not to indent, instead
> marking paragraphs by a line of white space. From a conservationist's
> point of view this uses more paper - I leave aside any question of
> aesthetics or ease of reading.
>
> I cannot answer for what happens when using R to L type or what (if any)
> is the typesetting "norm" for such languages. I'll root around later today
> to see if I can come up with anything, but I'm going offline shortly to do
> Saturday things.
>
> Rory
>
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > >From: Rory O'Farrell [mailto:ofarrwrk@iol.ie]
> > Sent: Friday, August 21, 2015 14:20
> > To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: help needed on ODF standard for "auto" indent for paragraphs
> >
> > On Fri, 21 Aug 2015 13:57:59 -0700
> > Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > This is in regard to issue
> > > https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=126476
> > >
> > > I can't easily locate what the ODF 1.2 standard is on calculation for a
> > > first line auto indent for a paragraph. Well I found this --
> > > http://officeopenxml.com/WPindentation.php
> > >
> > > but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. :/
> > >
> > > In any case, if the standard is consistent regardless of font, it seems
> > > our calcs may be incorrect for some Asian fonts (maybe encoding factors
> > > are not correctly taken into account) and that is the reason the patch
> > > was submitted for this issue. It would be nice if this calculation did
> > > happen correctly so users would not have to manually adjust the indent
> > > for paragraph first line.
> > >
> >
> > Kay,
> >
> > Merely for information, the printing standard I grew up with is that the
> usual indent for a paragraph in body type is one em, that is on 12 pt type,
> 12 pts, 18 pt type, 18 pts etc. I believe this is the convention followed
> in OO's Paragraph style definition on the Indents and Spacing tab, when
> "Automatic" is checked for first line indentation.
> >
> > If you need references for the one em indent I can provide them.
> >
> > Rory
> >
> >
> > --
> > Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
>
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MzK
“The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.”
--Lao Tzu
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
Re: help needed on ODF standard for "auto" indent for paragraphs
Posted by Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com>.
On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 11:37 PM, Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie> wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Aug 2015 15:23:22 -0700
> "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org> wrote:
>
> > I suspect the Roman alphabet, conventional-font space-/indent-sizing is
> inapplicable for some Asian languages. (I hope the Asian setting is
> specifically for CJK (Chinese, Japanese, Korean) or we could be having
> problems with some very complex language scripts as well.
> >
> > Rory, I don't believe "automatic" is on by default, so someone must be
> defining styles this way, you think?
>
> You are right, "Automatic" first line indent is not on by default. The
> default condition is that first line indent is selected as zero (i.e. no
> indent), as are the indents before and after every line of the paragraph; I
> think this is reasonable behavour, If "Automatic" is checked, then the 1
> em indent is applied i.e., an indent of the type size. The Help file says
> "Automatically indents a paragraph according to the font size and the line
> spacing. The setting in the First Line box is ignored."
>
I'm not really sure this auto indent is 1 em. This is really the heart of
my question. What ist the calculation for this? OK, I will investigate
further.
Thank you for your response.
>
> The current fashion in much in-house writing is not to indent, instead
> marking paragraphs by a line of white space. From a conservationist's
> point of view this uses more paper - I leave aside any question of
> aesthetics or ease of reading.
>
> I cannot answer for what happens when using R to L type or what (if any)
> is the typesetting "norm" for such languages. I'll root around later today
> to see if I can come up with anything, but I'm going offline shortly to do
> Saturday things.
>
> Rory
>
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > >From: Rory O'Farrell [mailto:ofarrwrk@iol.ie]
> > Sent: Friday, August 21, 2015 14:20
> > To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: help needed on ODF standard for "auto" indent for paragraphs
> >
> > On Fri, 21 Aug 2015 13:57:59 -0700
> > Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > This is in regard to issue
> > > https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=126476
> > >
> > > I can't easily locate what the ODF 1.2 standard is on calculation for a
> > > first line auto indent for a paragraph. Well I found this --
> > > http://officeopenxml.com/WPindentation.php
> > >
> > > but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. :/
> > >
> > > In any case, if the standard is consistent regardless of font, it seems
> > > our calcs may be incorrect for some Asian fonts (maybe encoding factors
> > > are not correctly taken into account) and that is the reason the patch
> > > was submitted for this issue. It would be nice if this calculation did
> > > happen correctly so users would not have to manually adjust the indent
> > > for paragraph first line.
> > >
> >
> > Kay,
> >
> > Merely for information, the printing standard I grew up with is that the
> usual indent for a paragraph in body type is one em, that is on 12 pt type,
> 12 pts, 18 pt type, 18 pts etc. I believe this is the convention followed
> in OO's Paragraph style definition on the Indents and Spacing tab, when
> "Automatic" is checked for first line indentation.
> >
> > If you need references for the one em indent I can provide them.
> >
> > Rory
> >
> >
> > --
> > Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
>
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MzK
“The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.”
--Lao Tzu
Re: help needed on ODF standard for "auto" indent for paragraphs
Posted by Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>.
I find that Arabic and Hebrew generally indent first line of a paragraph, but did not find any "standard" usage; the few examples I saw seem to use a one em amount (i.e. that used by the existing (Automatic" setting in OpenOffice).
I have found this on Chinese indents
https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=85257
This on Japanese typesetting generally
http://www.ebpaj.jp/images/kumihan-en.pdf Indents on P10
This on non Roman script typesetting problems -very interesting, but much quite irrelevant to the immediate problem!
http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&id=iws-chapter09
--
Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
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Re: help needed on ODF standard for "auto" indent for paragraphs
Posted by Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>.
On Fri, 21 Aug 2015 15:23:22 -0700
"Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org> wrote:
> I suspect the Roman alphabet, conventional-font space-/indent-sizing is inapplicable for some Asian languages. (I hope the Asian setting is specifically for CJK (Chinese, Japanese, Korean) or we could be having problems with some very complex language scripts as well.
>
> Rory, I don't believe "automatic" is on by default, so someone must be defining styles this way, you think?
You are right, "Automatic" first line indent is not on by default. The default condition is that first line indent is selected as zero (i.e. no indent), as are the indents before and after every line of the paragraph; I think this is reasonable behavour, If "Automatic" is checked, then the 1 em indent is applied i.e., an indent of the type size. The Help file says
"Automatically indents a paragraph according to the font size and the line spacing. The setting in the First Line box is ignored."
The current fashion in much in-house writing is not to indent, instead marking paragraphs by a line of white space. From a conservationist's point of view this uses more paper - I leave aside any question of aesthetics or ease of reading.
I cannot answer for what happens when using R to L type or what (if any) is the typesetting "norm" for such languages. I'll root around later today to see if I can come up with anything, but I'm going offline shortly to do Saturday things.
Rory
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Rory O'Farrell [mailto:ofarrwrk@iol.ie]
> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2015 14:20
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: help needed on ODF standard for "auto" indent for paragraphs
>
> On Fri, 21 Aug 2015 13:57:59 -0700
> Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > This is in regard to issue
> > https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=126476
> >
> > I can't easily locate what the ODF 1.2 standard is on calculation for a
> > first line auto indent for a paragraph. Well I found this --
> > http://officeopenxml.com/WPindentation.php
> >
> > but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. :/
> >
> > In any case, if the standard is consistent regardless of font, it seems
> > our calcs may be incorrect for some Asian fonts (maybe encoding factors
> > are not correctly taken into account) and that is the reason the patch
> > was submitted for this issue. It would be nice if this calculation did
> > happen correctly so users would not have to manually adjust the indent
> > for paragraph first line.
> >
>
> Kay,
>
> Merely for information, the printing standard I grew up with is that the usual indent for a paragraph in body type is one em, that is on 12 pt type, 12 pts, 18 pt type, 18 pts etc. I believe this is the convention followed in OO's Paragraph style definition on the Indents and Spacing tab, when "Automatic" is checked for first line indentation.
>
> If you need references for the one em indent I can provide them.
>
> Rory
>
>
> --
> Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
>
--
Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
RE: help needed on ODF standard for "auto" indent for paragraphs
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
I suspect the Roman alphabet, conventional-font space-/indent-sizing is inapplicable for some Asian languages. (I hope the Asian setting is specifically for CJK (Chinese, Japanese, Korean) or we could be having problems with some very complex language scripts as well.
Rory, I don't believe "automatic" is on by default, so someone must be defining styles this way, you think?
-----Original Message-----
From: Rory O'Farrell [mailto:ofarrwrk@iol.ie]
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2015 14:20
To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
Subject: Re: help needed on ODF standard for "auto" indent for paragraphs
On Fri, 21 Aug 2015 13:57:59 -0700
Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This is in regard to issue
> https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=126476
>
> I can't easily locate what the ODF 1.2 standard is on calculation for a
> first line auto indent for a paragraph. Well I found this --
> http://officeopenxml.com/WPindentation.php
>
> but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. :/
>
> In any case, if the standard is consistent regardless of font, it seems
> our calcs may be incorrect for some Asian fonts (maybe encoding factors
> are not correctly taken into account) and that is the reason the patch
> was submitted for this issue. It would be nice if this calculation did
> happen correctly so users would not have to manually adjust the indent
> for paragraph first line.
>
Kay,
Merely for information, the printing standard I grew up with is that the usual indent for a paragraph in body type is one em, that is on 12 pt type, 12 pts, 18 pt type, 18 pts etc. I believe this is the convention followed in OO's Paragraph style definition on the Indents and Spacing tab, when "Automatic" is checked for first line indentation.
If you need references for the one em indent I can provide them.
Rory
--
Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
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Re: help needed on ODF standard for "auto" indent for paragraphs
Posted by Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>.
On Fri, 21 Aug 2015 13:57:59 -0700
Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This is in regard to issue
> https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=126476
>
> I can't easily locate what the ODF 1.2 standard is on calculation for a
> first line auto indent for a paragraph. Well I found this --
> http://officeopenxml.com/WPindentation.php
>
> but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. :/
>
> In any case, if the standard is consistent regardless of font, it seems
> our calcs may be incorrect for some Asian fonts (maybe encoding factors
> are not correctly taken into account) and that is the reason the patch
> was submitted for this issue. It would be nice if this calculation did
> happen correctly so users would not have to manually adjust the indent
> for paragraph first line.
>
Kay,
Merely for information, the printing standard I grew up with is that the usual indent for a paragraph in body type is one em, that is on 12 pt type, 12 pts, 18 pt type, 18 pts etc. I believe this is the convention followed in OO's Paragraph style definition on the Indents and Spacing tab, when "Automatic" is checked for first line indentation.
If you need references for the one em indent I can provide them.
Rory
--
Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
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RE: help needed on ODF standard for "auto" indent for paragraphs
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
Apparently, Friday is ODF question day [;<).
I suspect that default indentation amounts are nowhere specified in the ODF 1.2 Specification and it is an implementation-defined behavior.
I looked at every occurrence of indent* in the ODF 1.2 specification and nowhere are there default values for the format features that specify indentations. There is a true/false attribute that determines if paragraph first-line indentation is determined from the font (size), but ODF 1.2 does not specify what that determination is.
More in-line ...
-----Original Message-----
From: Kay Schenk [mailto:kay.schenk@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2015 13:58
To: AOO Dev Apache <de...@openoffice.apache.org>
Subject: help needed on ODF standard for "auto" indent for paragraphs
This is in regard to issue
https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=126476
I can't easily locate what the ODF 1.2 standard is on calculation for a
first line auto indent for a paragraph. Well I found this --
http://officeopenxml.com/WPindentation.php
but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. :/
<orcmid>
Sorry. That page is about OOXML, not ODF. So no need to feel bad.
</orcmid>
In any case, if the standard is consistent regardless of font, it seems
our calcs may be incorrect for some Asian fonts (maybe encoding factors
are not correctly taken into account) and that is the reason the patch
was submitted for this issue. It would be nice if this calculation did
happen correctly so users would not have to manually adjust the indent
for paragraph first line.
<orcmid>
The standard does not specify this case. I would have to see what is being produced and we could then see how OpenOffice is controlling it. We need to see a small Chinese language file that demonstrates the problem and check the ODF.
If we know what actions are taken where indentation is specified, we can see if there is some way to control its setting.
Can we assume that the patch being offered already takes everything into account?
</orcmid>
--
--------------------------------------------
MzK
“The journey of a thousand miles begins
with a single step.”
--Lao Tzu
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