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Posted to community@apache.org by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org> on 2002/10/26 15:38:03 UTC
[VOTE] Open this list
Three views exist presently on this list's "openness". The purpose of
this list is to fascillitate community development among the various
disconneted groups in Apache. Then to further discuss issues that
affect the community as a whole.
View 1: Open the list completely, anyone can subscribe, post and read
the archive
View 2: Keep the list open only to committers, members and invitees
(highly contributive developers and users) so far as posting goes,
however allow anyone to read or view the archive (and include an archive
such as MARC, etc.
View 3: Close the list to all except members and committers.
View 1: +1 Sam, Steven Noles
View 2: +1 Andy
View 3: +1 Ken
Andy:
I'd like to protect the list from random posters. If a user or someone
wants to get in, then fine let them in if they have something to
contribute, but this will prevent someone posting a random "Gee how do I
use tomcat" or "here is what you should do but I have never and will
never contribute to apache in any realy sense of the word" posts that
often degrade the quality of the list. This will also help prevent a
personal experience of mine from repeating itself when I first tried to
get involved, where I posted a simple question and got flamed without
ever knowing the context rhyme or reasons...
Please state your view and vote your conscience.
-Andy
Re: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by "Michael A. Smith" <ma...@apache.org>.
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> View 1: Open the list completely, anyone can subscribe, post and read
> the archive
> View 2: Keep the list open only to committers, members and invitees
> (highly contributive developers and users) so far as posting goes,
> however allow anyone to read or view the archive (and include an archive
> such as MARC, etc.
> View 3: Close the list to all except members and committers.
>
> View 1: +1 Sam, Steven Noles
-0
> View 2: +1 Andy
-1.
> View 3: +1 Ken
+1 For the same reasons fitz posted on reorg, see
Message-Id: <20...@pantheon.red-bean.com>
or reorg-get.1339_1339@apache.org
> Please state your view and vote your conscience.
michael
--
Michael A. Smith
mas@apache.org
Re: [NOMINATION] Morgan Delagrange for ASF Membership
Posted by Aaron Bannert <aa...@clove.org>.
On Mon, Oct 28, 2002 at 01:50:58PM -0500, Sam Ruby wrote:
> I hereby nominate Morgan Delagrange for ASF Membership.
I do not believe this belongs on a public mailing list.
-aaron
[NOMINATION] Morgan Delagrange for ASF Membership
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
I hereby nominate Morgan Delagrange for ASF Membership.
Morgan has been a committer since December of 2000 on a number of
Jakarta subprojects, including taglibs, commons, and watchdog. However,
his coding efforts don't begin to capture his contributions efforts to
the ASF - he was amongst the first to suggest the need for what became
jakarta-commons, and contributed significantly to the charter thereof.
He has also contributed significantly to the documentation of the
processes that committers in these respective codebases are following.
His contributions to general project discussions are frequent and
constructive.
Any current ASF member care to second this nomination?
- Sam Ruby
Re: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by Costin Manolache <co...@apache.org>.
On Sat, 2002-10-26 at 06:38, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> View 1: Open the list completely, anyone can subscribe, post and read
> the archive
+1
> View 2: Keep the list open only to committers, members and invitees
> (highly contributive developers and users) so far as posting goes,
> however allow anyone to read or view the archive (and include an archive
> such as MARC, etc.
+0
> View 3: Close the list to all except members and committers.
-1
Costin
Re: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by Leo Simons <le...@apache.org>.
> View 1: Open the list completely, anyone can subscribe, post and read
> the archive
> View 2: Keep the list open only to committers, members and invitees
> (highly contributive developers and users) so far as posting goes,
> however allow anyone to read or view the archive (and include an archive
> such as MARC, etc.
> View 3: Close the list to all except members and committers.
>
> View 1: +1 Sam, Steven Noles
+0
> View 2: +1 Andy
+1
> View 3: +1 Ken
-0
> Please state your view and vote your conscience.
- Leo Simons
Re: Why aren't they committers? (was: [VOTE] Open this list)
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
>
> Ouch! Yes. Ever notice how many of your typos end up being amazingly
> close to keywords in programming languages that you happen to use...
++1 - just no one end an argument with fi or esac ;-)
>
> :-)
>
> - Sam Ruby
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
>
>
Re: Why aren't they committers? (was: [VOTE] Open this list)
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
Sam Ruby wrote:
>
> > did you mean 'clashes'? just want to make sure, since it changes the
> > meaning a little.. :-)
>
> Ouch! Yes. Ever notice how many of your typos end up being amazingly
> close to keywords in programming languages that you happen to use...
indeed. a customer support friend told me about an oddball request
from a customer: to *remove* a word from the system dictionary.
they carefully spell-checked the announcement they were sending
to 25'000 people, and found no errors -- so blithely invited all those
people to a 'pubic auction'.
'we have *no need* for the word pubic in our dictionary!' said the
customer.
--
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
Re: Why aren't they committers? (was: [VOTE] Open this list)
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
> Sam Ruby wrote:
>
>>There are going to be culture classes as we try to move towards becoming
>>one big happy family.
>
> did you mean 'clashes'? just want to make sure, since it changes the
> meaning a little.. :-)
Ouch! Yes. Ever notice how many of your typos end up being amazingly
close to keywords in programming languages that you happen to use...
:-)
- Sam Ruby
Re: Why aren't they committers? (was: [VOTE] Open this list)
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
Sam Ruby wrote:
>
> There are going to be culture classes as we try to move towards becoming
> one big happy family.
did you mean 'clashes'? just want to make sure, since it changes the
meaning a little.. :-)
> Most of it is due to ingrained assumptions that
> we have all built up over long periods of time. My aim is to actively
> seek them out and surface them for all of us to inspect, discuss, and
> learn from.
+1
--
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
Why aren't they committers? (was: [VOTE] Open this list)
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Peter Donald wrote:
>
> Why do non-committers care about how Apache is evolving? And if they care so
> much why aren't they committers?
There are going to be culture classes as we try to move towards becoming
one big happy family. Most of it is due to ingrained assumptions that
we have all built up over long periods of time. My aim is to actively
seek them out and surface them for all of us to inspect, discuss, and
learn from.
Peter, take a moment and glance at
http://httpd.apache.org/dev/guidelines.html. Search for "Apache
Developers".
- Sam Ruby
Re: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by Peter Donald <pe...@apache.org>.
On Sat, 26 Oct 2002 23:38, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> Three views exist presently on this list's "openness". The purpose of
> this list is to fascillitate community development among the various
> disconneted groups in Apache. Then to further discuss issues that
> affect the community as a whole.
>
> View 1: Open the list completely, anyone can subscribe, post and read
> the archive
> View 2: Keep the list open only to committers, members and invitees
> (highly contributive developers and users) so far as posting goes,
> however allow anyone to read or view the archive (and include an archive
> such as MARC, etc.
> View 3: Close the list to all except members and committers.
+1
Why do non-committers care about how Apache is evolving? And if they care so
much why aren't they committers?
--
Cheers,
Peter Donald
--------------------------------------------------
Logic: The art of being wrong with confidence...
--------------------------------------------------
Re: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
>* On 2002-10-26 at 10:05,
> Andrew C. Oliver <ac...@apache.org> excited the electrons to say:
>
>
>>View 3: Close the list to all except members and committers.
>>
>>
>
>i think that's a bit more negatively stated than necessary. try:
>
>'allow posting by committers, members, and invitees, and restrict
>access to the archives to the subscribers.'
>
>something that just occurred to me: this ends up being less
>approaching my intent than i thought, since even committers and
>members won't be able to see the archives unless they're
>subscribed. *that's* certainly not what i want to see happen.
>
>
No I meant a public web archive not the el-crappola email interface that
just stresses me out to use. (we can subscribe an archive on a case by
case basis ;-) )
>so, *shrug*.
>
>View 1: +1 Sam, Steven Noles, Jeff Turner
>View 2: +1 Andy, +0.5 ken
>View 3:
>
>
Re: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
>
>
>i think that's a bit more negatively stated than necessary. try:
>
>'allow posting by committers, members, and invitees, and restrict
>access to the archives to the subscribers.'
>
>
totally agree. I'm suprised. Thats not the kind of tactic I usually see
from Craig :-(
>
>
>
>
Apache Community (was Re: [VOTE] Open this list)
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
James Cox wrote:
>
> Whilst i agree with Sam -- we do have to be open -- we're still a
> closed foundation, one that benefits from it's meritocracy of
> interested experts.
I sincerely compliment you on your courage, honesty and ability to
clearly state this. Many people would avoid actually making that
statement. Kudos.
Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
>
> Interestingly, this vote also helps crystalize who we think the
> "Apache community" really is.
Now, take a look at the description of users on
http://www.apache.org/foundation/roles.html
For that matter, take a look at the last five words of the first
paragraph of http://www.apache.org/
Sam Ruby wrote:
> There are going to be culture [clashes] as we try to move towards
> becoming one big happy family. Most of it is due to ingrained
> assumptions that we have all built up over long periods of time. My
> aim is to actively seek them out and surface them for all of us to
> inspect, discuss, and learn from.
As applied here, I would like us to come to a common understanding of
what the term "Apache community" means, and make the name of this
mailing list, the access policies thereof, and the usage of these terms
on our public website (in particular prominent ones, like the ones I
cited above) consistent with this common understanding.
- Sam Ruby
Re: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by Vadim Gritsenko <va...@verizon.net>.
James Cox wrote:
>>From: Rodent of Unusual Size [mailto:Ken.Coar@Golux.Com]
>>* On 2002-10-26 at 10:05,
>> Andrew C. Oliver <ac...@apache.org> excited the electrons to say:
>>
>>
>>>View 3: Close the list to all except members and committers.
>>>
>>>
>>i think that's a bit more negatively stated than necessary. try:
>>
>>'allow posting by committers, members, and invitees, and restrict
>>access to the archives to the subscribers.'
>>
>>something that just occurred to me: this ends up being less
>>approaching my intent than i thought, since even committers and
>>members won't be able to see the archives unless they're
>>subscribed. *that's* certainly not what i want to see happen.
>>
>>
>>
>+1.
>
+1.
Vadim
>This isn't a general user list, so being open just increases the noise. This
>is a list for people who are actively involved with ASF projects (as defined
>by their ability to commit), and who have an interest in the development of
>the foundation. We should have public record; but an open archive doesn't
>necessarily help, so I would propose that summaries of pertinent discussion
>be made public, periodically.
>
>Whilst i agree with Sam -- we do have to be open -- we're still a closed
>foundation, one that benefits from it's meritocracy of interested experts.
>(I wonder what i'm doing here then :)). That means to me that it is OUR
>foundation we have to look after -- and to look after each other -- and not
>a place for end users to jump into straight away.
>
>I guess in these early stages I consider community@apache.org kinda like a
>"staff-line" news bulletin. News to the troops, discussion, general
>information. apache information. Not really a vehical that we use to
>communicate to users. That's announce@apache.org.
>
> -- james
>
>
RE: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by James Cox <im...@php.net>.
> From: Rodent of Unusual Size [mailto:Ken.Coar@Golux.Com]
> * On 2002-10-26 at 10:05,
> Andrew C. Oliver <ac...@apache.org> excited the electrons to say:
> >
> > View 3: Close the list to all except members and committers.
>
> i think that's a bit more negatively stated than necessary. try:
>
> 'allow posting by committers, members, and invitees, and restrict
> access to the archives to the subscribers.'
>
> something that just occurred to me: this ends up being less
> approaching my intent than i thought, since even committers and
> members won't be able to see the archives unless they're
> subscribed. *that's* certainly not what i want to see happen.
>
+1.
This isn't a general user list, so being open just increases the noise. This
is a list for people who are actively involved with ASF projects (as defined
by their ability to commit), and who have an interest in the development of
the foundation. We should have public record; but an open archive doesn't
necessarily help, so I would propose that summaries of pertinent discussion
be made public, periodically.
Whilst i agree with Sam -- we do have to be open -- we're still a closed
foundation, one that benefits from it's meritocracy of interested experts.
(I wonder what i'm doing here then :)). That means to me that it is OUR
foundation we have to look after -- and to look after each other -- and not
a place for end users to jump into straight away.
I guess in these early stages I consider community@apache.org kinda like a
"staff-line" news bulletin. News to the troops, discussion, general
information. apache information. Not really a vehical that we use to
communicate to users. That's announce@apache.org.
-- james
Re: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
* On 2002-10-26 at 10:05,
Andrew C. Oliver <ac...@apache.org> excited the electrons to say:
>
> View 3: Close the list to all except members and committers.
i think that's a bit more negatively stated than necessary. try:
'allow posting by committers, members, and invitees, and restrict
access to the archives to the subscribers.'
something that just occurred to me: this ends up being less
approaching my intent than i thought, since even committers and
members won't be able to see the archives unless they're
subscribed. *that's* certainly not what i want to see happen.
so, *shrug*.
View 1: +1 Sam, Steven Noles, Jeff Turner
View 2: +1 Andy, +0.5 ken
View 3:
--
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
Re: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by Conor MacNeill <co...@cortexebusiness.com.au>.
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> View 1: Open the list completely, anyone can subscribe, post and read
> the archive
+1
> View 2: Keep the list open only to committers, members and invitees
> (highly contributive developers and users) so far as posting goes,
> however allow anyone to read or view the archive (and include an archive
> such as MARC, etc.
+1
> View 3: Close the list to all except members and committers.
-0
View:
I think public accessibility is a good thing. I think the concerns of some
people about view 1 is the possibility of a low S/N. OTOH, I don't think
that has been a problem for lists such as general@jakarta so I'd be inclined
to go with view 1.
Conor
Re: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <je...@apache.org>.
--On Saturday, October 26, 2002 9:38 AM -0400 "Andrew C. Oliver"
<ac...@apache.org> wrote:
> View 1: Open the list completely, anyone can subscribe, post and
> read the archive
-1.
> View 2: Keep the list open only to committers,
> members and invitees (highly contributive developers and users) so
> far as posting goes, however allow anyone to read or view the
> archive (and include an archive such as MARC, etc.
-0.
> View 3: Close the list to all except members and committers.
+1. -- justin
Re: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
Steven Noels wrote:
> Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>
>> View 1: +1 Sam, Steven Noles
>
>
> aaargh - you did it again :-)
>
> that's Steven-with-a-traling-n (first name) Noels (last name,
> pronounced like 'news' in English, but then with an 'L' instead ;-)
>
> </Steven>
Sorry.. I'm from Florida oringally.. I keep thinking of you as a
football player! :-)
I will try not to do this. But please feel free to mis-spell my name in
revenge. A popular European
misspelling is Andi Olive.
-Andy
Re: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> View 1: +1 Sam, Steven Noles
aaargh - you did it again :-)
that's Steven-with-a-traling-n (first name) Noels (last name, pronounced
like 'news' in English, but then with an 'L' instead ;-)
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
stevenn@outerthought.org stevenn@apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
>View 1: Open the list completely, anyone can subscribe, post and read
> the archive.
>
+1
>View 2: Keep the list open only to committers, members and invitees
> (highly contributive developers and users) so far as posting
> goes, however allow anyone to read or view the archive (and
> include an archive such as MARC, etc.
>
>
+0
>View 3: Allow posting by committers, members, and invitees, and restrict
> access to the archives to the subscribers.
>
>
-1
--
Stephen J. McConnell
OSM SARL
digital products for a global economy
mailto:mcconnell@osm.net
http://www.osm.net
Re: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
"Andrew C. Oliver" wrote:
>
> I changed my vote to open it completely. or just +1 on that too. I
> favor medium access to closed completely for sure as I freaking hate the
> ezmlm archives (minimum readability)...
we have closed lists in the foundation that have other means of access
than the ezmlm archives, if that's the only reason you changed your
vote. and providing some sort of limited eyebrowse-like browsability
is on several people's to-do lists, i think.
of course, if you changed your vote based on the philosophical rather
than the technical issue, <be persona="roseann rosanna-danna">'never mind'</be>.
> I believe we agreed to wait 72 hours...
sorry, i was unclear. by no means did i mean that the collation should
be considered final; not at all. rather, i was collecting the votes *so
far*. and since all committers should have access to the committers module,
you (and others) can change your vote in the file. it was meant just as
a here's-how-things-stand-so-far, not a and-here-are-the-results.
sorry..
--
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
Re: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
I changed my vote to open it completely. or just +1 on that too. I
favor medium access to closed completely for sure as I freaking hate the
ezmlm archives (minimum readability)...
I believe we agreed to wait 72 hours...
Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
>i have just done my best to collate the votes as far as i have seen them
>in this thread; the result is in the committers module (to which everyone
>here theoretically has write access) under 'vote-community-access.txt'.
>
>everyone please verify that i didn't screw up your votes and put your
>names in the wrong places!
>
>here are the results so far:
>----
>[as of $Date: 2002/10/27 23:22:57 $]
>
>Three views exist presently on the appropriate level of "openness" for
>the community@apache.org mailing list. The purpose of this list is to
>fascillitate community development among the various disconnected
>groups in Apache. Then to further discuss issues that affect the
>community as a whole.
>
>The list was created in direct response to this proposal by Stefano Mazzocchi:
>
> 1) a mail list general@apache.org should be created, it should be
> open to committers only but it should be voluntary. Here is where
> ASF-wide discussions should take place and committer and members
> get to know each-other.
>
>Here are the views as originally defined by Andy Oliver in message
><3D...@apache.org>:
>
>View 1: Open the list completely, anyone can subscribe, post and read
> the archive.
> +1: Sam Ruby, Steven Noels, Jeff Turner, Rodney Waldhoff,
> Craig R McClanahan, Morgan Delagrange, Conor MacNeill,
> Ignacio J Ortega, Ted Husted
> +0: Leo Simons
> -0: Michael A Smith
> -1: Ken Coar, Sander Striker, Greg Stein, Joe Schaefer, Justin Erenkrantz
>
>View 2: Keep the list open only to committers, members and invitees
> (highly contributive developers and users) so far as posting
> goes, however allow anyone to read or view the archive (and
> include an archive such as MARC, etc.
> +1: Sam Ruby, Andy Oliver, Leo Simons, James Taylor, Aaron Bannert,
> Conor MacNeill, Erik Abele
> +0: Craig R McClanahan, Greg Stein, Ignacio J Ortega, Ted Husted
> -0: Ken Coar, Morgan Delagrange, Joe Schaefer, Justin Erenkrantz
> -0.9: Sander Striker
> -1: Michael A Smith
>
>View 3: Allow posting by committers, members, and invitees, and restrict
> access to the archives to the subscribers.
> +1: Ken Coar, Martin van den Bemt, B.W. Fitzpatrick, Michael A Smith,
> Sander Striker, Greg Stein, Thom May, Joe Schaefer,
> Peter Donald, James Cox, Vadim Gritsenko, Justin Erenkrantz
> +0: Erik Abele
> -0: Leo Simons, Conor MacNeill
> -1: Craig R McClanahan, Morgan Delagrange, Ignacio J Ortega, Ted Husted
>
>
Re: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
i have just done my best to collate the votes as far as i have seen them
in this thread; the result is in the committers module (to which everyone
here theoretically has write access) under 'vote-community-access.txt'.
everyone please verify that i didn't screw up your votes and put your
names in the wrong places!
here are the results so far:
----
[as of $Date: 2002/10/27 23:22:57 $]
Three views exist presently on the appropriate level of "openness" for
the community@apache.org mailing list. The purpose of this list is to
fascillitate community development among the various disconnected
groups in Apache. Then to further discuss issues that affect the
community as a whole.
The list was created in direct response to this proposal by Stefano Mazzocchi:
1) a mail list general@apache.org should be created, it should be
open to committers only but it should be voluntary. Here is where
ASF-wide discussions should take place and committer and members
get to know each-other.
Here are the views as originally defined by Andy Oliver in message
<3D...@apache.org>:
View 1: Open the list completely, anyone can subscribe, post and read
the archive.
+1: Sam Ruby, Steven Noels, Jeff Turner, Rodney Waldhoff,
Craig R McClanahan, Morgan Delagrange, Conor MacNeill,
Ignacio J Ortega, Ted Husted
+0: Leo Simons
-0: Michael A Smith
-1: Ken Coar, Sander Striker, Greg Stein, Joe Schaefer, Justin Erenkrantz
View 2: Keep the list open only to committers, members and invitees
(highly contributive developers and users) so far as posting
goes, however allow anyone to read or view the archive (and
include an archive such as MARC, etc.
+1: Sam Ruby, Andy Oliver, Leo Simons, James Taylor, Aaron Bannert,
Conor MacNeill, Erik Abele
+0: Craig R McClanahan, Greg Stein, Ignacio J Ortega, Ted Husted
-0: Ken Coar, Morgan Delagrange, Joe Schaefer, Justin Erenkrantz
-0.9: Sander Striker
-1: Michael A Smith
View 3: Allow posting by committers, members, and invitees, and restrict
access to the archives to the subscribers.
+1: Ken Coar, Martin van den Bemt, B.W. Fitzpatrick, Michael A Smith,
Sander Striker, Greg Stein, Thom May, Joe Schaefer,
Peter Donald, James Cox, Vadim Gritsenko, Justin Erenkrantz
+0: Erik Abele
-0: Leo Simons, Conor MacNeill
-1: Craig R McClanahan, Morgan Delagrange, Ignacio J Ortega, Ted Husted
--
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
Re: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by Thom May <th...@apache.org>.
* Greg Stein (gstein@lyra.org) wrote :
> On Sat, Oct 26, 2002 at 09:38:03AM -0400, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> >...
> > View 1: Open the list completely, anyone can subscribe, post and read
> > the archive
>
> -1
>
> > View 2: Keep the list open only to committers, members and invitees
> > (highly contributive developers and users) so far as posting goes,
> > however allow anyone to read or view the archive (and include an archive
> > such as MARC, etc.
>
> +0
>
> > View 3: Close the list to all except members and committers.
>
> +1
>
> We need a forum for the ASF to discuss itself without worrying about the
> viewing public.
>
+1
-Thom
Re: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
On Sat, Oct 26, 2002 at 09:38:03AM -0400, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>...
> View 1: Open the list completely, anyone can subscribe, post and read
> the archive
-1
> View 2: Keep the list open only to committers, members and invitees
> (highly contributive developers and users) so far as posting goes,
> however allow anyone to read or view the archive (and include an archive
> such as MARC, etc.
+0
> View 3: Close the list to all except members and committers.
+1
We need a forum for the ASF to discuss itself without worrying about the
viewing public.
Cheers,
-g
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
Re: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by Elena Litani <el...@apache.org>.
> View 1: Open the list completely, anyone can subscribe, post and read
> the archive
-1
> View 2: Keep the list open only to committers, members and invitees
> (highly contributive developers and users) so far as posting goes,
> however allow anyone to read or view the archive (and include an archive
> such as MARC, etc.
+1
> View 3: Close the list to all except members and committers.
0
--
Elena Litani / IBM Toronto
Re: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@sunstarsys.com>.
"Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org> writes:
[...]
> Please state your view
Excerpts from Stephano Mazzocchi's announcement:
--------------------------------------------------
[...]
This mail list will be closed to committers only, the citizens of the
Apache Software Foundation, and will serve as the place to talk about
the future of the foundation.
[...]
If you wished there was more synergy between the various ASF
communities, show us how you'd make it happening.
On community@apache.org is where discussions about new projects
creations (like Apache Commons, Apache Incubator, Apache Graveyard) will
take place.
community@apache.org will be where the 'architecture', the 'development'
of the foundation itself is done.
[...]
So, we give you the opportunity to participate in the making of the
future of the foundation, but no complaints will be accepted if what
comes up doesn't fit your needs or doesn't make you happy and you didn't
participate in its process.
--------------------------------------------------
I don't see how any of the above is better accomplished
by opening up this list.
> and vote your conscience.
I would have preferred to see discussion of a PROPOSAL to subvert
Stephano's announcement, but maybe I missed that discussion.
> View 1: Open the list completely, anyone can subscribe, post and read
> the archive
-1
> View 2: Keep the list open only to committers, members and invitees
> (highly contributive developers and users) so far as posting goes,
> however allow anyone to read or view the archive (and include an archive
> such as MARC, etc.
-0
>View 3: Close the list to all except members and committers.
+1
--
Joe Schaefer
Re: idiot.html
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
And I'll be using Sam as a human blast shield ;-)
Sam Ruby wrote:
> Joe Schaefer wrote:
>
>>
>> If it doesn't reflect the attitude of the jakarta community, but
>> instead represents the views of one individual, then doesn't the page
>> belong in his subdirectory? I dunno, something like
>>
>> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/jon/idiot.html
>>
>> might be more appropriate.
>
>
> Hey - I've got an idea! Why don't *YOU* suggest this to Jon? I'll be
> right behind you. *WAY* behind you. ;-)
>
> - Sam Ruby
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
>
>
Re: idiot.html
Posted by Daniel Rall <dl...@finemaltcoding.com>.
Okay, it was funny the first time, but now it's REALLY FUNNY!
/me is laughing so hard he's nearly in tears
"Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org> writes:
> Using Sam as a blast shield seems safer ;-)
>
> Sam Ruby wrote:
>
> > Joe Schaefer wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> With all due respect, you might be safer standing behind Jon than
> >> Sam. What's the point of local governance if the governing bodies
> >> are incapable of dealing with trivial issues like this one?
--
Daniel Rall <dl...@finemaltcoding.com>
Re: idiot.html
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
Using Sam as a blast shield seems safer ;-)
Sam Ruby wrote:
> Joe Schaefer wrote:
>
>>
>> With all due respect, you might be safer standing behind Jon than
>> Sam. What's the point of local governance if the governing bodies
>> are incapable of dealing with trivial issues like this one?
>
>
> FYI: Jon was the person who first nominated me as chair of Jakarta:
>
> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/pmc/01-01-17-meeting-minutes.html
>
> and this vote occurred on the general@jakarta.apache.org mailing list:
>
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-general&m=98028130104993&w=2
>
> - Sam Ruby
>
> P.S. Jon was also the one who nominated me as an ASF member.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
>
>
Re: idiot.html
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Joe Schaefer wrote:
>
> With all due respect, you might be safer standing behind Jon than
> Sam. What's the point of local governance if the governing bodies
> are incapable of dealing with trivial issues like this one?
FYI: Jon was the person who first nominated me as chair of Jakarta:
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/pmc/01-01-17-meeting-minutes.html
and this vote occurred on the general@jakarta.apache.org mailing list:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-general&m=98028130104993&w=2
- Sam Ruby
P.S. Jon was also the one who nominated me as an ASF member.
Re: idiot.html
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
James Taylor wrote:
>>>As long as 'professional' != stodgy then okay. But I'll let *you*
>>>remove it while I stand behind Sam and use him as a blast shield. (who
>>>mentioned he'd be standing right behind you farrrr behind you)
>>>
>>>
>>With all due respect, you might be safer standing behind Jon than
>>Sam. What's the point of local governance if the governing bodies
>>are incapable of dealing with trivial issues like this one?
>>
>>
>
>Um, we have dealt with it. Quite easily in fact. Solution: No one cares
>enough to change it.
>
>( Frankly I agree that it is not the most professional thing, but if it
>goes away the hotheads will just find another way to piss people off.
>We're a pretty eccentric community, cope. )
>
>
more adequately put... Don't sweat the small things. I mean geesh its
just a little page that someone can send if need be.
If someone cares SOoooo much and is willing to deal with the
reprocussions, go for it. Perhaps asking him to move it to his ~jon
pages would be appropriate. However I think having a long thread on
this is probably more than its worth myself....but I'm a man man so what
do I know ;-)
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
>For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
>
>
>
>
Re: idiot.html
Posted by James Taylor <jt...@4lane.com>.
> > As long as 'professional' != stodgy then okay. But I'll let *you*
> > remove it while I stand behind Sam and use him as a blast shield. (who
> > mentioned he'd be standing right behind you farrrr behind you)
>
> With all due respect, you might be safer standing behind Jon than
> Sam. What's the point of local governance if the governing bodies
> are incapable of dealing with trivial issues like this one?
Um, we have dealt with it. Quite easily in fact. Solution: No one cares
enough to change it.
( Frankly I agree that it is not the most professional thing, but if it
goes away the hotheads will just find another way to piss people off.
We're a pretty eccentric community, cope. )
Re: love.html
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
10/29/2002 8:24:38 AM, Joe Schaefer <jo...@sunstarsys.com>
wrote:
>With all due respect, you might be safer standing behind Jon
>than Sam. What's the point of local governance if the
>governing bodies are incapable of dealing with trivial issues
>like this
>one?
Joe, we're kidding. =:0)
As mentioned, elsewhere, if you'd like to submit a patch, I'd
be happy to apply it. But the page is not linked through the
site. It's apparently something Jon mailed to people.
Jon always did a lot of work on the Jakarta site, so personally
I cut him a lot of slack. He did the work, and so he made the
decisions. When I do the work, I make the decisions, and if
someone doesn't like what I do, they can post their
alternative, and the community can choose between them.
If you disagree with the wording of this page, then its up to
*you* to do the work of providing an alternative. Assuming that
its less offensive than the original, having the karma, I'd be
happy to post your patch.
-Ted.
Re: idiot.html
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@sunstarsys.com>.
"Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org> writes:
[...]
> >should the apache web sites contain 'professional' (as in 'professionalism')
> >content? if so, does this page apply?
> >
> >
> As long as 'professional' != stodgy then okay. But I'll let *you*
> remove it while I stand behind Sam and use him as a blast shield. (who
> mentioned he'd be standing right behind you farrrr behind you)
With all due respect, you might be safer standing behind Jon than
Sam. What's the point of local governance if the governing bodies
are incapable of dealing with trivial issues like this one?
--
Joe Schaefer
Re: idiot.html
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
>
>
>ha, ha. i see the humour. however, someone seeing that on an official
>apache web site is going to think it represents the overall apache viewpoint.
>i personally don't particularly care to be labelled by it.
>
>should the apache web sites contain 'professional' (as in 'professionalism')
>content? if so, does this page apply?
>
>
As long as 'professional' != stodgy then okay. But I'll let *you*
remove it while I stand behind Sam and use him as a blast shield. (who
mentioned he'd be standing right behind you farrrr behind you)
-Andy
Re: idiot.html
Posted by Glen Stampoultzis <gs...@iprimus.com.au>.
>
>there is one particular flame war that i remember. someone asked a tomcat
>question. i quite politely offered a possible solution but told them to
>ask on the tomcat list since that's where all the experts hang out. this
>descended quickly into a hideous flame war.
Since moving general@ down to the bottom of the list we get much fewer
postings from people asking about tomcat. Small changes can make a big
difference.
Regards,
Glen
Re: idiot.html
Posted by Vadim Gritsenko <va...@verizon.net>.
robert burrell donkin wrote:
...
> but i'm not sure how much more can be done. the lists are so busy that
> they have to be policed.
>
> it'd be a good idea to come up with some better solutions. maybe we
> could increase the size of the email footers
Is it technically possible to add *headers* instead of increasing
footers? Even one liner such as "You are reading general-jakarta mailing
list (rules are _here_)" will help (imho).
Vadim
> so that it'd be more obvious that you're reading a post to an apache
> list and that the list has certain rules which are supposed to be obeyed.
>
> - robert
...
Re: idiot.html
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@sunstarsys.com>.
robert burrell donkin <rd...@apache.org> writes:
> one of the continual battles we've had at jakarta is policing the
> mailing list and general in particular.
>
> people wanting to join a mailing list from the jakarta list have to go
> through two pages to get the actual lists in order to try to reduce
> the need for people to police the list guidelines. but this doesn't
> seem to be enough. we still get people posting who haven't taken the
> time or effort to read what's been created to help them.
>
> jon started taking a lot of the responsibility for policing very soon
> after the change from java@apache to jakarta@apache. he started off
> with elan and humour but over the years his responses got shorter and
> more curt as it became a chore. hence the jon.html which had to be
> used when people took it too personally.
>
> one problem which has become apparent over the last year or so is that
> jakarta lists are very widely mirrored - including onto news. this
> means that people post to our lists never having read the list
> guidelines or (as has happened in a couple of cases) not even
> realizing that they are on a mailing list.
Thanks alot for taking the time to dispassionately explain
the situation *such as it is*. It's exactly the kind of answer
I was hoping for. Unfortunately I don't know what sort of magic
is required to make everybody happy, but I do know there are other
online developer communities that have experienced similar growing
pains.
It might not hurt to survey some prior art; IME perl's p5p
developer list is exceptionally well-managed. I don't have
first-hand experience with the php developer community, but
from my distant vantage point, they seem to be managing their
growth pretty well (at least angst-free).
--
Joe Schaefer
Re: idiot.html
Posted by robert burrell donkin <rd...@apache.org>.
one of the continual battles we've had at jakarta is policing the mailing
list and general in particular.
people wanting to join a mailing list from the jakarta list have to go
through two pages to get the actual lists in order to try to reduce the
need for people to police the list guidelines. but this doesn't seem to be
enough. we still get people posting who haven't taken the time or effort
to read what's been created to help them.
jon started taking a lot of the responsibility for policing very soon
after the change from java@apache to jakarta@apache. he started off with
elan and humour but over the years his responses got shorter and more curt
as it became a chore. hence the jon.html which had to be used when people
took it too personally.
one problem which has become apparent over the last year or so is that
jakarta lists are very widely mirrored - including onto news. this means
that people post to our lists never having read the list guidelines or (as
has happened in a couple of cases) not even realizing that they are on a
mailing list.
there is one particular flame war that i remember. someone asked a tomcat
question. i quite politely offered a possible solution but told them to
ask on the tomcat list since that's where all the experts hang out. this
descended quickly into a hideous flame war.
the poster had no idea that he was on a list with rules and took it as a
personal insult that i'd suggested that he should read the rules and take
his question elsewhere. i am of the opinion that life's too short to waste
talking to people like that and so i left him to rot but unfortunately his
replies were so strongly worded that he drew the collective wrath of the
jakarta community down upon his head. he didn't have the good sense to
stop arguing and the flame war went on for several days with numerous
posts. until finally he quite vocally quit the list.
this is the context in which to understand (and judge) love.html and idiot.
html. they are informative and offensive. posting one of those urls to
someone who is out of line on a list is a very effective way of policing.
it is also very harsh. i personally think that people deserve a chance and
that strong responses lead to other people being too frightened to post.
but i'm not sure how much more can be done. the lists are so busy that
they have to be policed.
it'd be a good idea to come up with some better solutions. maybe we could
increase the size of the email footers so that it'd be more obvious that
you're reading a post to an apache list and that the list has certain
rules which are supposed to be obeyed.
- robert
On Tuesday, October 29, 2002, at 03:08 PM, Martin van den Bemt wrote:
>>
>> I'm guessing Jon mailed people the URL as a list moderator.
>>
>
> The first time I saw it used was when someone asked a tomcat question on
> general and was kindly requested to take his question to the tomcat list.
> He
> replied : I'm on the correct list, so why don't you answer me.. Then jon
> replied with his url. After that it happend one more time afaik, which was
> an immidiate reply with the url. ;) (probably the previous issue still
> remained in memory..)
> Just search on love.html and idiot.html to follow the discussion we had
> about it on the general list..;)
>
> Mvgr,
> Martin
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
>
RE: idiot.html
Posted by Martin van den Bemt <ma...@isallineed.org>.
>
> I'm guessing Jon mailed people the URL as a list moderator.
>
The first time I saw it used was when someone asked a tomcat question on
general and was kindly requested to take his question to the tomcat list. He
replied : I'm on the correct list, so why don't you answer me.. Then jon
replied with his url. After that it happend one more time afaik, which was
an immidiate reply with the url. ;) (probably the previous issue still
remained in memory..)
Just search on love.html and idiot.html to follow the discussion we had
about it on the general list..;)
Mvgr,
Martin
Re: idiot.html
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
Kurt Schrader wrote:
>On Tue, 29 Oct 2002, Ted Husted wrote:
>
>
>
>>10/29/2002 6:33:40 AM, Rodent of Unusual Size
>><Ke...@Golux.Com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>ha, ha. i see the humour. however, someone seeing that on an
>>>official apache web site is going to think it represents the
>>>overall apache viewpoint. i personally don't particularly care
>>>to be labelled by it. should the apache web sites contain
>>>'professional' (as in >'professionalism') content? if so,
>>>does this page apply?
>>>
>>>
>>Ah, well, it's not visible. None of the other pages link to it.
>>I'm guessing Jon mailed people the URL as a list moderator.
>>
>>
>
>For further reference you might also want to check out:
>http://jakarta.apache.org/site/jon.html
>
>
Nice shades!
>-Kurt
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
>For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
>
>
>
>
>
--
Stephen J. McConnell
OSM SARL
digital products for a global economy
mailto:mcconnell@osm.net
http://www.osm.net
Re: idiot.html
Posted by Kurt Schrader <ks...@karmalab.org>.
On Tue, 29 Oct 2002, Ted Husted wrote:
> 10/29/2002 6:33:40 AM, Rodent of Unusual Size
> <Ke...@Golux.Com> wrote:
> >ha, ha. i see the humour. however, someone seeing that on an
> >official apache web site is going to think it represents the
> >overall apache viewpoint. i personally don't particularly care
> >to be labelled by it. should the apache web sites contain
> >'professional' (as in >'professionalism') content? if so,
> >does this page apply?
>
> Ah, well, it's not visible. None of the other pages link to it.
> I'm guessing Jon mailed people the URL as a list moderator.
For further reference you might also want to check out:
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/jon.html
-Kurt
Re: idiot.html
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
10/29/2002 6:33:40 AM, Rodent of Unusual Size
<Ke...@Golux.Com> wrote:
>ha, ha. i see the humour. however, someone seeing that on an
>official apache web site is going to think it represents the
>overall apache viewpoint. i personally don't particularly care
>to be labelled by it. should the apache web sites contain
>'professional' (as in >'professionalism') content? if so,
>does this page apply?
Ah, well, it's not visible. None of the other pages link to it.
I'm guessing Jon mailed people the URL as a list moderator.
If it were linked to something, I'd change it in a heartbeat.
But since I don't know what it is actually for, I've just left
it alone =:)
But if anyone wants to submit a patch, I'd be happy to apply
it.
Hopefully, lists like this will help expose us to a greater
number of other Apaches, so we can getter a better sense of the
community view. At Jakarta, the kindler/gentler ASF Members,
like Sam and Craig, sometimes seem like the minority.
-Ted.
Re: idiot.html
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
Sam Ruby wrote:
>
> Joe Schaefer wrote:
> >
> > If it doesn't reflect the attitude of the jakarta community,
> > but instead represents the views of one individual, then doesn't
> > the page belong in his subdirectory? I dunno, something like
> >
> > http://jakarta.apache.org/site/jon/idiot.html
> >
> > might be more appropriate.
>
> Hey - I've got an idea! Why don't *YOU* suggest this to Jon? I'll be
> right behind you. *WAY* behind you. ;-)
ha, ha. i see the humour. however, someone seeing that on an official
apache web site is going to think it represents the overall apache viewpoint.
i personally don't particularly care to be labelled by it.
should the apache web sites contain 'professional' (as in 'professionalism')
content? if so, does this page apply?
--
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
Re: idiot.html
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Joe Schaefer wrote:
>
> If it doesn't reflect the attitude of the jakarta community,
> but instead represents the views of one individual, then doesn't
> the page belong in his subdirectory? I dunno, something like
>
> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/jon/idiot.html
>
> might be more appropriate.
Hey - I've got an idea! Why don't *YOU* suggest this to Jon? I'll be
right behind you. *WAY* behind you. ;-)
- Sam Ruby
Re: idiot.html
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Stephen McConnell wrote:
> > As I said before, Jon is unique.
>
> I hope he is a Apache member!
>
You bet.
Jon, Pier and I were nominated by Brian Behlendorf in 1999 and where the
first three committers coming from the java world that later became
jakarta/xml
--
Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: idiot.html
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
Sam Ruby wrote:
> Stephen McConnell wrote:
>
>>
>> I like the love.html alternative - is embrassing, more depth, warmth,
>> and has a level of empathy that somehow get's lost in the other
>> document.
>>
>> Cheers, Steve.
>>
>> :-D
>
>
> FYI:
>
> [rubys@daedalus site]$ls -l love.*
> lrwxrwxr-x 1 jon jakarta 10 Jul 17 09:47 love.html -> idiot.html
Yes - I had figured this out - but the context set's the tone - start of
with idiot and your on the offensive and every word is offensive. Start
of with love and your context changes. Hense the deep and meaninful
nature of the second version!
;-)
>
> As I said before, Jon is unique.
I hope he is a Apache member!
Steve.
>
> - Sam Ruby
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
>
>
>
--
Stephen J. McConnell
OSM SARL
digital products for a global economy
mailto:mcconnell@osm.net
http://www.osm.net
Re: idiot.html
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Stephen McConnell wrote:
>
> I like the love.html alternative - is embrassing, more depth, warmth,
> and has a level of empathy that somehow get's lost in the other document.
>
> Cheers, Steve.
>
> :-D
FYI:
[rubys@daedalus site]$ls -l love.*
lrwxrwxr-x 1 jon jakarta 10 Jul 17 09:47 love.html -> idiot.html
As I said before, Jon is unique.
- Sam Ruby
Re: idiot.html
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
Martin van den Bemt wrote:
>Please see http://jakarta.apache.org/site/love.html as an alternative...
>
>
I like the love.html alternative - is embrassing, more depth, warmth,
and has a level of empathy that somehow get's lost in the other document.
Cheers, Steve.
:-D
>Mvgr,
>Martin
>
>
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Joe Schaefer [mailto:joe+apache@sunstarsys.com]
>>Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 23:20
>>To: community@apache.org
>>Subject: Re: idiot.html
>>
>>
>>Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org> writes:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Joe Schaefer wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>http://jakarta.apache.org/site/idiot.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>What is the point of that url? Do other ASF projects (php?)
>>>>have similar links on their support site?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>No, I think that's unique.
>>>
>>>It is a long story, and has everything to do with one individual.
>>>
>>>
>>If it doesn't reflect the attitude of the jakarta community,
>>but instead represents the views of one individual, then doesn't
>>the page belong in his subdirectory? I dunno, something like
>>
>> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/jon/idiot.html
>>
>>might be more appropriate.
>>
>>--
>>Joe Schaefer
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
>>For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
>For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
>
>
>
>
>
--
Stephen J. McConnell
OSM SARL
digital products for a global economy
mailto:mcconnell@osm.net
http://www.osm.net
Re: idiot.html
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
The Jakarta website is managed by lazy consensus. If any of us
working on the site actually took issue with that page, we'd
just change it. I've often toned down some of the pages posted
by our favorite PITA -- and have even been called a "wimp" for
doing so. But no one's ever reverted my changes afterwards.
-Ted.
10/28/2002 7:54:41 PM, Joe Schaefer <jo...@sunstarsys.com>
wrote:
>Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org> writes:
>
>
>> It has been pointed out that Jakarta committers have had
very little
>> exposure to ASF members. Don't judge Jakarta committers by
the
>> actions of the few ASF members that have cared enough to
participate.
>
>I'm not judging the jakarta committers, certainly not
negatively.
>I'm just trying to get some feeling for what the problems are,
>how they are resolved in different developer communities.
>
>[...]
>
>> Here's an exercise for you: find a similar document created
by a
>> non-ASF member.
>
>That's trivial- google("Smoothwall"). You can get the gist of
>their contempt for their "free" userbase just by reading
>
> http://www.smoothwall.co.uk/support/
>
>--
>Joe Schaefer
>
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>
Re: idiot.html
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@sunstarsys.com>.
Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org> writes:
> It has been pointed out that Jakarta committers have had very little
> exposure to ASF members. Don't judge Jakarta committers by the
> actions of the few ASF members that have cared enough to participate.
I'm not judging the jakarta committers, certainly not negatively.
I'm just trying to get some feeling for what the problems are,
how they are resolved in different developer communities.
[...]
> Here's an exercise for you: find a similar document created by a
> non-ASF member.
That's trivial- google("Smoothwall"). You can get the gist of
their contempt for their "free" userbase just by reading
http://www.smoothwall.co.uk/support/
--
Joe Schaefer
Re: idiot.html
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Joe Schaefer wrote:
>
> For the sake of argument, you may assume I have looked at
> every document in the http://jakarta.apache.org/site/
> directory. If you don't see what I'm driving at yet, I
> encourage you to post the url of a similar document anywhere
> else in the ASF (outside of the jakarta family, of course).
Careful. As I have been saying before, there are multiple ways to look
at these things.
It has been pointed out that Jakarta committers have had very little
exposure to ASF members. Don't judge Jakarta committers by the actions
of the few ASF members that have cared enough to participate. Like Jon.
Here's an exercise for you: find a similar document created by a non-ASF
member.
- Sam Ruby
Re: idiot.html
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@sunstarsys.com>.
"Martin van den Bemt" <ma...@isallineed.org> writes:
> Please see http://jakarta.apache.org/site/love.html as an
> alternative...
For the sake of argument, you may assume I have looked at
every document in the http://jakarta.apache.org/site/
directory. If you don't see what I'm driving at yet, I
encourage you to post the url of a similar document anywhere
else in the ASF (outside of the jakarta family, of course).
--
Joe Schaefer
RE: idiot.html
Posted by Martin van den Bemt <ma...@isallineed.org>.
Please see http://jakarta.apache.org/site/love.html as an alternative...
Mvgr,
Martin
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe Schaefer [mailto:joe+apache@sunstarsys.com]
> Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 23:20
> To: community@apache.org
> Subject: Re: idiot.html
>
>
> Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org> writes:
>
> > Joe Schaefer wrote:
> > >
> > >>http://jakarta.apache.org/site/idiot.html
> > >
> > > What is the point of that url? Do other ASF projects (php?)
> > > have similar links on their support site?
> >
> > No, I think that's unique.
> >
> > It is a long story, and has everything to do with one individual.
>
> If it doesn't reflect the attitude of the jakarta community,
> but instead represents the views of one individual, then doesn't
> the page belong in his subdirectory? I dunno, something like
>
> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/jon/idiot.html
>
> might be more appropriate.
>
> --
> Joe Schaefer
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
>
>
Re: idiot.html
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@sunstarsys.com>.
Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org> writes:
> Joe Schaefer wrote:
> >
> >>http://jakarta.apache.org/site/idiot.html
> >
> > What is the point of that url? Do other ASF projects (php?)
> > have similar links on their support site?
>
> No, I think that's unique.
>
> It is a long story, and has everything to do with one individual.
If it doesn't reflect the attitude of the jakarta community,
but instead represents the views of one individual, then doesn't
the page belong in his subdirectory? I dunno, something like
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/jon/idiot.html
might be more appropriate.
--
Joe Schaefer
Re: idiot.html Re: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Joe Schaefer wrote:
>
>>http://jakarta.apache.org/site/idiot.html
>
> What is the point of that url? Do other ASF projects (php?)
> have similar links on their support site?
No, I think that's unique.
It is a long story, and has everything to do with one individual. You
can read more about that individual here:
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/jon.html
- Sam Ruby
idiot.html Re: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@sunstarsys.com>.
Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org> writes:
[...]
> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/idiot.html
What is the point of that url? Do other ASF projects (php?)
have similar links on their support site?
--
Joe Schaefer
Re: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
> View 1: Open the list completely, anyone can subscribe, post and read
> the archive
I see people voting 2 instead of 1 because of the presumed noise that
would be appear if non-committers/members/pmc'ers/board'ers would be
allowed on that list (i.e. 'users', 'supporters', 'evangelists' ... ;-)
Please bear in mind that community@ is not about specific projects nor
technology, that it (yet) doesn't carry the connotation general@ has,
and that general@jakarta has been able to live through the infrequent
'help-i-don't-know-how-to-start-tomcat' question. Maybe it would be
showing off our community skills if we have a list where our users and
ourselves (the ASF'ers, whatever that means) can meet without fearing a
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/idiot.html link ;-)
Also, please remember that one _has_ to subscribe - an initial burden
that filters out the utter clueless people, I believe.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
stevenn@outerthought.org stevenn@apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>
> View 1: Open the list completely, anyone can subscribe, post and read
> the archive
> View 2: Keep the list open only to committers, members and invitees
> (highly contributive developers and users) so far as posting goes,
> however allow anyone to read or view the archive (and include an archive
> such as MARC, etc.
> View 3: Close the list to all except members and committers.
>
> View 1: +1 Sam, Steven Noles
> View 2: +1 Andy
> View 3: +1 Ken
For the record, I ameanable to both views one and two.
- Sam Ruby
Re: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by Jeff Turner <je...@apache.org>.
On Sat, Oct 26, 2002 at 09:38:03AM -0400, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> Three views exist presently on this list's "openness". The purpose of
> this list is to fascillitate community development among the various
> disconneted groups in Apache. Then to further discuss issues that
> affect the community as a whole.
...
View 1: +1 Sam, Steven Noels, Jeff Turner
View 2: +1 Andy
View 3: +1 Ken
> Please state your view and vote your conscience.
It hasn't been a problem on general@jakarta (even with the misleading
name), so I don't see why it should be a problem here. IMHO the risk is
worth taking, because the principle behind it (openness *and* perceived
openness) is very important.
--Jeff
> -Andy
>
Re: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
>
>
>>View 1: +1 Sam, Steven Noles
>>View 2: +1 Andy
>>
>>
>
>+1
>
>I see no reason to not have an open archive, but am fine with the list
>being restricted, with exceptions on a case by case basis (although for
>every exception I'm inclined to ask, so why isn't this valuable
>contributor a committer? Oh yes, that can of worms again...)
>
>
What I had in mind most of all was a "soon to be a committer" developer,
but I tried to open up to other designs as well. My thought may be more
attached to the POI project, where greater selectivity is required in
allowing committers. Basically most people who can do this kind of work
do C not Java, and most Java programmers take some time learning the
black arts of CVS, etc. We also have learned unit tests are essential.
So our developer incubation stage is expanding not contracting and the
project has been getting more and more publicity and the Word port is
finally heating up (it just takes time to demystify and convince people
"yes we can" and let them come to the realization that Microsoft brand
brain teasers are the best and most fun in the world! It takes people
to realize that these brain teasers are the best/most fun time waster
since Sid Meyer's Civilization and the spawned series/project
www.freeciv.org...No I'm not sick! ;-)). So we are likely to have a set
of "soon to be" committers developers signing on. This is somewhat
forward-looking on my part, but thats my purpose, not the "people who
should be committers but aren't" case.
-Andy
Re: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by James Taylor <jt...@4lane.com>.
On Sat, 2002-10-26 at 09:38, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> Three views exist presently on this list's "openness". The purpose of
> this list is to fascillitate community development among the various
> disconneted groups in Apache. Then to further discuss issues that
> affect the community as a whole.
>
> View 1: Open the list completely, anyone can subscribe, post and read
> the archive
> View 2: Keep the list open only to committers, members and invitees
> (highly contributive developers and users) so far as posting goes,
> however allow anyone to read or view the archive (and include an archive
> such as MARC, etc.
> View 3: Close the list to all except members and committers.
>
> View 1: +1 Sam, Steven Noles
> View 2: +1 Andy
+1
I see no reason to not have an open archive, but am fine with the list
being restricted, with exceptions on a case by case basis (although for
every exception I'm inclined to ask, so why isn't this valuable
contributor a committer? Oh yes, that can of worms again...)
> View 3: +1 Ken
>
> Andy:
> I'd like to protect the list from random posters. If a user or someone
> wants to get in, then fine let them in if they have something to
> contribute, but this will prevent someone posting a random "Gee how do I
> use tomcat" or "here is what you should do but I have never and will
> never contribute to apache in any realy sense of the word" posts that
> often degrade the quality of the list. This will also help prevent a
> personal experience of mine from repeating itself when I first tried to
> get involved, where I posted a simple question and got flamed without
> ever knowing the context rhyme or reasons...
>
> Please state your view and vote your conscience.
>
> -Andy
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
>
Re: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by Daniel Rall <dl...@finemaltcoding.com>.
Aaron Bannert <aa...@clove.org> writes:
[ ] View 1: Open the list completely, anyone can subscribe, post and read
the archive
[X] View 2: Keep the list open only to committers, members and invitees
(highly contributive developers and users) so far as posting goes,
however allow anyone to read or view the archive (and include an archive
such as MARC, etc.
[ ] View 3: Close the list to all except members and committers.
--
Daniel Rall <dl...@finemaltcoding.com>
Re: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by Aaron Bannert <aa...@clove.org>.
> [ ] View 1: Open the list completely, anyone can subscribe, post and read
> the archive
> [X] View 2: Keep the list open only to committers, members and invitees
> (highly contributive developers and users) so far as posting goes,
> however allow anyone to read or view the archive (and include an archive
> such as MARC, etc.
> [ ] View 3: Close the list to all except members and committers.
-aaron
Re: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by Peter Donald <pe...@apache.org>.
On Mon, 28 Oct 2002 03:12, Ted Husted wrote:
> IMHO, View 3 should be accomplished by allowing Committers on
> the Members list. A stepping stone to that might be to apply
> View 2 to the Members list and let a Member request that a
> Committer be given access. This could be a precursor to
> inviting someone to join the ASF.
Isn't this just moving things around. Will someone then have to create a
members-private list?
There needs to be areas where people can talk without fear of retribution or
people will just take to not using the public lists or not talking about
reservations they have for certain actions.
--
Cheers,
Peter Donald
--------------------------------------------------
The fact that nobody understands you doesn't
mean you're an artist.
--------------------------------------------------
Re: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
View 1: +1
View 2: +0
View 3: -1
Totally opt-in, public archive on Nagoya, announced on
Committers and Members.
IMHO, View 3 should be accomplished by allowing Committers on
the Members list. A stepping stone to that might be to apply
View 2 to the Members list and let a Member request that a
Committer be given access. This could be a precursor to
inviting someone to join the ASF.
-Ted.
Re: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
>
> Interestingly, this vote also helps crystalize who we think the "Apache
> community" really is.
+1
-Sam Ruby
RE: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by Danny Angus <da...@apache.org>.
I'm unable to assimilate this list *and* reorg on top of everything else, but Craig's point is a good one, so in deference to both of the above
+0
d.
> Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
>
> > And, IMHO, any open source developer community that tries to ignore
> > users of its products is going to become insular and self absorbed.
>
> +1
Re: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
>
>
>Euh... how about giving the vote more than 24 hours? Vote taking should
>preferably be given about 72 hours. There are always cases where it needs to
>be shortened, but this isn't one of them.
>
>Cheers,
>-g
>
>
>
<impatient-sigh/>
Okay ;-) *foot tapping....clock watching* ;-)
-Andy
Re: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by Peter Donald <pe...@apache.org>.
On Sun, 27 Oct 2002 13:28, David Crossley wrote:
> On a related issue, i am having trouble finding any docs
> about voting procedures for the Apache community.
Goto http://jakarta.apache.org/site/guidelines.html and then lookup the
"Decision Process" link
--
Cheers,
Peter Donald
"Artists can color the sky red because they know it's blue. Those of us who
aren't artists must color things the way they really are or people might
think we're stupid." -- Jules Feiffer
Re: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Greg Stein wrote:
> Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> > Okay. Sam and others have convinced me. . though I reserve the right
> > to taunt you all when the J.D.s enter and we have too much goofiness
> > (more than I cause that is ;-) )
> >
> > lets open it up and see what happens. if havoc is wreaked its
> > correctable so I change my vote to +1 for all open. I think thats the
> > forming consensus so lets wrap this up in the next day or so and just do
> > it. Then some karma blessed person should update the "site".
>
> Euh... how about giving the vote more than 24 hours? Vote taking should
> preferably be given about 72 hours. There are always cases where it needs to
> be shortened, but this isn't one of them.
The planet had not even rotated half-way around. The "vote"
started at 23:30 last night Australian time. I got my mail
early on Sunday morning and some are saying that it is over.
?
Sorry, i trust that my next statement is not too disruptive,
but it is important to get things straight early, hence ...
I think that this vote may not have followed decent procedures.
We were asked on a Friday to wait until the subscriber base
of "community" had built and fade out on "reorg". One of the
first threads on the list is a vote!
I was under the impression that a clear [PROPOSAL} is discussed
first to formulate the intent of a vote. The options that are
arrived at during that thread are then clearly stated by the
originator of the proposal in a subsequent ]VOTE] thread.
This vote was too rushed. I see people voting +1 on two
options, and others trying to re-write the options to be
clearer on what is being voted for.
On a related issue, i am having trouble finding any docs
about voting procedures for the Apache community.
--David
Re: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
On Sat, Oct 26, 2002 at 05:55:22PM -0400, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> Okay. Sam and others have convinced me. . though I reserve the right
> to taunt you all when the J.D.s enter and we have too much goofiness
> (more than I cause that is ;-) )
>
> lets open it up and see what happens. if havoc is wreaked its
> correctable so I change my vote to +1 for all open. I think thats the
> forming consensus so lets wrap this up in the next day or so and just do
> it. Then some karma blessed person should update the "site".
Euh... how about giving the vote more than 24 hours? Vote taking should
preferably be given about 72 hours. There are always cases where it needs to
be shortened, but this isn't one of them.
Cheers,
-g
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
Re: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
Okay. Sam and others have convinced me. . though I reserve the right
to taunt you all when the J.D.s enter and we have too much goofiness
(more than I cause that is ;-) )
lets open it up and see what happens. if havoc is wreaked its
correctable so I change my vote to +1 for all open. I think thats the
forming consensus so lets wrap this up in the next day or so and just do
it. Then some karma blessed person should update the "site".
Morgan Delagrange wrote:
>--- Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org> wrote:
>
>
>>Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
>>
>> > And, IMHO, any open source developer community
>>that tries to ignore
>> > users of its products is going to become insular
>>and self absorbed.
>>
>>+1
>>
>>Given the number of committers on an Apache-wide
>>scale, what I post is
>>meant for global consumption already - and I don't
>>see what the world
>>should be kept away from except for security-related
>>issues.
>>
>></Steven>
>>
>>
>
>Yup, I am also +1 for opening the list to all, and -1
>for an committer-only list with no public archive. -0
>for a list with a public archive but limited
>subscribers, as combing through archives to get news
>is an unrewarding experience.
>
>- Morgan
>
>=====
>Morgan Delagrange
>http://jakarta.apache.org/taglibs
>http://jakarta.apache.org/commons
>http://axion.tigris.org
>http://jakarta.apache.org/watchdog
>
>__________________________________________________
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>Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
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>
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>To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
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>
>
>
>
Re: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by Morgan Delagrange <md...@yahoo.com>.
--- Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org> wrote:
> Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
>
> > And, IMHO, any open source developer community
> that tries to ignore
> > users of its products is going to become insular
> and self absorbed.
>
> +1
>
> Given the number of committers on an Apache-wide
> scale, what I post is
> meant for global consumption already - and I don't
> see what the world
> should be kept away from except for security-related
> issues.
>
> </Steven>
Yup, I am also +1 for opening the list to all, and -1
for an committer-only list with no public archive. -0
for a list with a public archive but limited
subscribers, as combing through archives to get news
is an unrewarding experience.
- Morgan
=====
Morgan Delagrange
http://jakarta.apache.org/taglibs
http://jakarta.apache.org/commons
http://axion.tigris.org
http://jakarta.apache.org/watchdog
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/
Re: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
> And, IMHO, any open source developer community that tries to ignore
> users of its products is going to become insular and self absorbed.
+1
Given the number of committers on an Apache-wide scale, what I post is
meant for global consumption already - and I don't see what the world
should be kept away from except for security-related issues.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
stevenn@outerthought.org stevenn@apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by "David N. Welton" <da...@dedasys.com>.
"Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org> writes:
> Interestingly, this vote also helps crystalize who we think the
> "Apache community" really is. And, IMHO, any open source developer
> community that tries to ignore users of its products is going to
> become insular and self absorbed.
But users of Apache products have a place to talk about those products
to their heart's content on the lists for those products or projects.
> > View 2: Keep the list open only to committers, members and
> > invitees (highly contributive developers and users) so far as
> > posting goes, however allow anyone to read or view the archive
> > (and include an archive such as MARC, etc.
>
> +0 with archives, -1 without archives.
+1 - with the official "apache mailing list archives" (ok, my turn to
sound like a broken record - in one week I will have more time and
will try and spend some time helping).
--
David N. Welton
Consulting: http://www.dedasys.com/
Personal: http://www.dedasys.com/davidw/
Free Software: http://www.dedasys.com/freesoftware/
Apache Tcl: http://tcl.apache.org/
Re: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org>.
On Sat, 26 Oct 2002, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>
> Three views exist presently on this list's "openness". The purpose of
> this list is to fascillitate community development among the various
> disconneted groups in Apache. Then to further discuss issues that
> affect the community as a whole.
>
Interestingly, this vote also helps crystalize who we think the "Apache
community" really is. And, IMHO, any open source developer community that
tries to ignore users of its products is going to become insular and self
absorbed.
> View 1: Open the list completely, anyone can subscribe, post and read
> the archive
+1
> View 2: Keep the list open only to committers, members and invitees
> (highly contributive developers and users) so far as posting goes,
> however allow anyone to read or view the archive (and include an archive
> such as MARC, etc.
+0 with archives, -1 without archives.
(I'm not interested in anything anyone has to say on this topic that
they're not willing to have publicly archived.)
> View 3: Close the list to all except members and committers.
>
-1
Craig McClanahan
RE: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by Sander Striker <st...@apache.org>.
> View 1: +1 Sam, Steven Noles
-1. This is like having a 'world' list. Chances are good
that the signal/noise ratio will be quite bad.
> View 2: +1 Andy
-0.9
> View 3: +1 Ken
+1.
Sander
Re: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by Chuck Murcko <ch...@topsail.org>.
On Saturday, October 26, 2002, at 06:38 AM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> View 1: Open the list completely, anyone can subscribe, post and read
> the archive
-1.
+1 if everyone currently squabbling on other ASF lists (and not about
dev issues) agrees to come here to do it.
> View 2: Keep the list open only to committers, members and invitees
> (highly contributive developers and users) so far as posting goes,
> however allow anyone to read or view the archive (and include an
> archive such as MARC, etc.
+1. If we feel we need more contact with our users, maybe we should be
subscribing to the user@ lists, getting on IRC or the newsgroups once in
awhile, reading the bug reports, or talking to users at conferences.
> View 3: Close the list to all except members and committers.
-1. That's how we got here, isn't it?
Chuck
Re: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
On Mon, Oct 28, 2002 at 08:48:04AM -0600, B. W. Fitzpatrick wrote:
>
> "Bill Stoddard" <bi...@wstoddard.com> writes:
> > > View 3: Close the list to all except members and committers.
>
> > This is not much different from committers@apache.org. (yea, I
> > probably misse d the post explaining why they are different).
>
> committers@apache.org is not an opt-in list--every committer is
> automagically subscribed to it. It is meant only for important
> announcements that need to be sent to all committers.
And they're resubscribed if they unsubscribe themselves :-)
Cheers,
-g
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
RE: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by Bill Stoddard <bi...@wstoddard.com>.
> View 1: Open the list completely, anyone can subscribe, post and read
> the archive
+1
> View 2: Keep the list open only to committers, members and invitees
> (highly contributive developers and users) so far as posting goes,
> however allow anyone to read or view the archive (and include an archive
> such as MARC, etc.
+0
> View 3: Close the list to all except members and committers.
This is not much different from committers@apache.org. (yea, I probably missed
the post explaining why they are different).
Bill
Re: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
Thats view 3. (the ezmlm archive is of course always available)
Martin van den Bemt wrote:
>+1 on View 2, without the public archive. Everyone having access here should
>be able to get to some kind private archive though ;)
>
>Mvgr,
>Martin
>
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:acoliver@apache.org]
>>Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2002 15:38
>>To: community@apache.org
>>Subject: [VOTE] Open this list
>>
>>
>>Three views exist presently on this list's "openness". The purpose of
>>this list is to fascillitate community development among the various
>>disconneted groups in Apache. Then to further discuss issues that
>>affect the community as a whole.
>>
>>View 1: Open the list completely, anyone can subscribe, post and read
>>the archive
>>View 2: Keep the list open only to committers, members and invitees
>>(highly contributive developers and users) so far as posting goes,
>>however allow anyone to read or view the archive (and include an archive
>>such as MARC, etc.
>>View 3: Close the list to all except members and committers.
>>
>>View 1: +1 Sam, Steven Noles
>>View 2: +1 Andy
>>View 3: +1 Ken
>>
>>Andy:
>>I'd like to protect the list from random posters. If a user or someone
>>wants to get in, then fine let them in if they have something to
>>contribute, but this will prevent someone posting a random "Gee how do I
>>use tomcat" or "here is what you should do but I have never and will
>>never contribute to apache in any realy sense of the word" posts that
>>often degrade the quality of the list. This will also help prevent a
>>personal experience of mine from repeating itself when I first tried to
>>get involved, where I posted a simple question and got flamed without
>>ever knowing the context rhyme or reasons...
>>
>>Please state your view and vote your conscience.
>>
>>-Andy
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
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RE: [VOTE] Open this list
Posted by Martin van den Bemt <ma...@isallineed.org>.
+1 on View 2, without the public archive. Everyone having access here should
be able to get to some kind private archive though ;)
Mvgr,
Martin
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:acoliver@apache.org]
> Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2002 15:38
> To: community@apache.org
> Subject: [VOTE] Open this list
>
>
> Three views exist presently on this list's "openness". The purpose of
> this list is to fascillitate community development among the various
> disconneted groups in Apache. Then to further discuss issues that
> affect the community as a whole.
>
> View 1: Open the list completely, anyone can subscribe, post and read
> the archive
> View 2: Keep the list open only to committers, members and invitees
> (highly contributive developers and users) so far as posting goes,
> however allow anyone to read or view the archive (and include an archive
> such as MARC, etc.
> View 3: Close the list to all except members and committers.
>
> View 1: +1 Sam, Steven Noles
> View 2: +1 Andy
> View 3: +1 Ken
>
> Andy:
> I'd like to protect the list from random posters. If a user or someone
> wants to get in, then fine let them in if they have something to
> contribute, but this will prevent someone posting a random "Gee how do I
> use tomcat" or "here is what you should do but I have never and will
> never contribute to apache in any realy sense of the word" posts that
> often degrade the quality of the list. This will also help prevent a
> personal experience of mine from repeating itself when I first tried to
> get involved, where I posted a simple question and got flamed without
> ever knowing the context rhyme or reasons...
>
> Please state your view and vote your conscience.
>
> -Andy
>
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
>
>