Getting 0.8-dev out the door

["Gav...." <br...@brightontown.com.au>]

There has been lots of talk lately regarding upgrading Cocoon, using
Ivy/Maven + other stuff.

All of these are fine and are paving the way forward, but as far as I can
see , none of these should be affecting what happens in 0.8-dev, they are
talks for possibly the next version.

I am concerned that everybody is already moving on to the next greatest
thing and leaving 0.8-dev behind in its unfinished state. Whilst I
appreciate that everyone has their own agendas on what is good for them,
what is good for the short term of the project is not being attended to and
this can lead to a long term deficit.

I would like to know what everyone feels about everyone concentrating on
getting 0.8-dev fixed and released as soon as possible. There are 25 roadmap
issues and if everyone worked on them it wouldn't take long to get these
crossed off. We should also resurrect IRC sessions purely for collaboration
on getting 0.8 issues fixed.

The one major decision in the release is whether or not dispatcher is ready
to be released from the whiteboard into (I think Thorsten mentioned) a
plugin endorsed by the community, or whether it will be part of core.
My thoughts are that a plugin for dispatcher is appropriate, although this
could be interpreted as optional, meaning skins would need to be continue to
be supported and developed and the only other alternative to dispatcher
themes. Once that is decided it should then not hold up the release.
Dispatcher has been quoted many times to other Apache Projects and users of
Forrest and I am sure there would be disappointment if this were not
released with or at the same time as 0.8-dev.

If everyone puts some time to get 0.8-dev released, the pressure is then off
the community and people can then continue with the excellent ream of ideas
and upgrades that are prevalent on this list at present.

Thoughts ?

Thanks

Gav...

Hackathon (was Re: G)etting 0.8-dev out the door

[Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>]

Cyriaque Dupoirieux wrote:
> le 29/01/2007 00:17 Thorsten Scherler a écrit :
>> On Sat, 2007-01-27 at 11:44 +0900, Gav.... wrote:  
>>> I am concerned that everybody is already moving on to the next greatest
>>> thing and leaving 0.8-dev behind in its unfinished state.     

I'll be at ApacheCon EU this year (missed it last- damn shame). How many 
Forresters will be there?

Ross

Re: Getting 0.8-dev out the door

[Cyriaque Dupoirieux <Cy...@pcotech.fr>]

le 29/01/2007 00:17 Thorsten Scherler a écrit :
> On Sat, 2007-01-27 at 11:44 +0900, Gav.... wrote: 
>   
>> There has been lots of talk lately regarding upgrading Cocoon, using
>> Ivy/Maven + other stuff.
>>
>> All of these are fine and are paving the way forward, but as far as I can
>> see , none of these should be affecting what happens in 0.8-dev, they are
>> talks for possibly the next version.
>>     
>
> Yes, I agree.
>   
Don't know exactly...
>   
>> I am concerned that everybody is already moving on to the next greatest
>> thing and leaving 0.8-dev behind in its unfinished state. 
>>     
>
> No, I myself need a 0.8 release (within the next couple of months).
>   
I also need a stable 0.8 release to dive into forrest 2 !
>   
>> Whilst I
>> appreciate that everyone has their own agendas on what is good for them,
>> what is good for the short term of the project is not being attended to and
>> this can lead to a long term deficit.
>>     
>
> Yeah, in lenya we are suffering ATM the consequences. People get the
> impression there is no development since there is no release.
>   
Exact, we all think the same when we download an open source project...
I think we should think about a way to really shorten our release lifecycle.
A small version every three months should be motivating for us - devs - 
and above all for forrest users !
If you are using linux, look at the pleasure you have when the system 
updates the programs you are using :-)  ! That's great to see bugs are 
fixed and that new features always appear.

>
>   
>> I would like to know what everyone feels about everyone concentrating on
>> getting 0.8-dev fixed and released as soon as possible. There are 25 roadmap
>> issues and if everyone worked on them it wouldn't take long to get these
>> crossed off. We should also resurrect IRC sessions purely for collaboration
>> on getting 0.8 issues fixed.
>>     
>
> agree, but somebody need to follow it through. There have been many
> attempts from different people so far.
>
>   
>> The one major decision in the release is whether or not dispatcher is ready
>> to be released from the whiteboard into (I think Thorsten mentioned) a
>> plugin endorsed by the community, or whether it will be part of core.
>>     
>
> ...
>   
To complex to decide. Dispatcher can stay in the whiteboard.
An old roadmap was to clear the core from skin and to create an 
independent plugin for skin so that the forrest users can choose the way 
to generate.
(We are far from this dream, many thing from the skin still appear in a 
site generated with the dispatcher...)

Salutations,
Cyriaque,
>> Thoughts ?
>>     
>
> IMO we should release the dispatcher into the official plugins and then release 0.8.
>
> salu2
>   

Re: Getting 0.8-dev out the door

[Thorsten Scherler <th...@apache.org>]

On Sat, 2007-01-27 at 11:44 +0900, Gav.... wrote: 
> There has been lots of talk lately regarding upgrading Cocoon, using
> Ivy/Maven + other stuff.
> 
> All of these are fine and are paving the way forward, but as far as I can
> see , none of these should be affecting what happens in 0.8-dev, they are
> talks for possibly the next version.

Yes, I agree.

> 
> I am concerned that everybody is already moving on to the next greatest
> thing and leaving 0.8-dev behind in its unfinished state. 

No, I myself need a 0.8 release (within the next couple of months).

> Whilst I
> appreciate that everyone has their own agendas on what is good for them,
> what is good for the short term of the project is not being attended to and
> this can lead to a long term deficit.

Yeah, in lenya we are suffering ATM the consequences. People get the
impression there is no development since there is no release.


> 
> I would like to know what everyone feels about everyone concentrating on
> getting 0.8-dev fixed and released as soon as possible. There are 25 roadmap
> issues and if everyone worked on them it wouldn't take long to get these
> crossed off. We should also resurrect IRC sessions purely for collaboration
> on getting 0.8 issues fixed.

agree, but somebody need to follow it through. There have been many
attempts from different people so far.

> 
> The one major decision in the release is whether or not dispatcher is ready
> to be released from the whiteboard into (I think Thorsten mentioned) a
> plugin endorsed by the community, or whether it will be part of core.

...
> 
> 
> Thoughts ?

IMO we should release the dispatcher into the official plugins and then release 0.8.

salu2
-- 
thorsten

"Together we stand, divided we fall!" 
Hey you (Pink Floyd)

Re: Getting 0.8-dev out the door

[Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>]

David Crossley wrote:
> Gav.... wrote:
>> There has been lots of talk lately regarding upgrading Cocoon, using
>> Ivy/Maven + other stuff.
>>
>> All of these are fine and are paving the way forward, but as far as I can
>> see , none of these should be affecting what happens in 0.8-dev, they are
>> talks for possibly the next version.
> 
> Ideally our Cocoon upgrade would happen before our 0.8 release.
> 
> The re-structuring of the content of the release might require
> Ivy/etc.

Moving to Ivy will be very easy, and I will do it just as soon as my 
CCLA is signed and registered at the ASF, should be soon. (note: the 
general consensus seems to be edging that way, but we have not made the 
decision yet).

If someone manages to get Forrest running with the Cocoon snapshots then 
all will be good, if not we can use the snapshot we already use.

>> I am concerned that everybody is already moving on to the next greatest
>> thing and leaving 0.8-dev behind in its unfinished state. Whilst I
>> appreciate that everyone has their own agendas on what is good for them,
>> what is good for the short term of the project is not being attended to and
>> this can lead to a long term deficit.
>>
>> I would like to know what everyone feels about everyone concentrating on
>> getting 0.8-dev fixed and released as soon as possible. There are 25 roadmap
>> issues and if everyone worked on them it wouldn't take long to get these
>> crossed off.
> 
> Thanks, it is good to see someone else trying to move the
> release along.

ditto

> See the recent dev archives. It has already been tried a few times.
> Perhaps it needs another attempt to narrow down the issues.
> See the last attempts and try again to summarise the state of things.
> However, i think that you will find that we have summarised
> and talked enough. It needs action on the outstanding issues,
> with which any developer can help.

Agreed.

>> The one major decision in the release is whether or not dispatcher is ready
>> to be released from the whiteboard into (I think Thorsten mentioned) a
>> plugin endorsed by the community, or whether it will be part of core.
> 
> The last time that we discussed the release, it was not
> a requirement that the Dispatcher be ready.

No, it is not a requirement, but it is gaining traction and is pretty 
stable. I would be (and have been for a long time) +1 for dispatcher to 
become an plugin. It should not be enabled as default yet.

Ross

Re: Getting 0.8-dev out the door

[David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>]

Gav.... wrote:
> There has been lots of talk lately regarding upgrading Cocoon, using
> Ivy/Maven + other stuff.
> 
> All of these are fine and are paving the way forward, but as far as I can
> see , none of these should be affecting what happens in 0.8-dev, they are
> talks for possibly the next version.

Ideally our Cocoon upgrade would happen before our 0.8 release.

The re-structuring of the content of the release might require
Ivy/etc.

> I am concerned that everybody is already moving on to the next greatest
> thing and leaving 0.8-dev behind in its unfinished state. Whilst I
> appreciate that everyone has their own agendas on what is good for them,
> what is good for the short term of the project is not being attended to and
> this can lead to a long term deficit.
> 
> I would like to know what everyone feels about everyone concentrating on
> getting 0.8-dev fixed and released as soon as possible. There are 25 roadmap
> issues and if everyone worked on them it wouldn't take long to get these
> crossed off.

Thanks, it is good to see someone else trying to move the
release along.

See the recent dev archives. It has already been tried a few times.
Perhaps it needs another attempt to narrow down the issues.
See the last attempts and try again to summarise the state of things.
However, i think that you will find that we have summarised
and talked enough. It needs action on the outstanding issues,
with which any developer can help.

Note that we do not need to solve every outstanding issue
in that roadmap, e.g. FOR-635 was present in 0.7 release.

One of the main issues is to decide the content of the release
and then re-write the Ant target "release-dist". There is a recent
dev thread and issue started for that.

Another is the documentation which contains out-of-date
examples of sitemaps.

> We should also resurrect IRC sessions purely for collaboration
> on getting 0.8 issues fixed.

Why does it need IRC? The mailing list should suffice.

> The one major decision in the release is whether or not dispatcher is ready
> to be released from the whiteboard into (I think Thorsten mentioned) a
> plugin endorsed by the community, or whether it will be part of core.

The last time that we discussed the release, it was not
a requirement that the Dispatcher be ready.

> My thoughts are that a plugin for dispatcher is appropriate, although this
> could be interpreted as optional, meaning skins would need to be continue to
> be supported and developed and the only other alternative to dispatcher
> themes. Once that is decided it should then not hold up the release.
> Dispatcher has been quoted many times to other Apache Projects and users of
> Forrest and I am sure there would be disappointment if this were not
> released with or at the same time as 0.8-dev.

It should only have been mentioned to developers.
They can use it already.

-David

> If everyone puts some time to get 0.8-dev released, the pressure is then off
> the community and people can then continue with the excellent ream of ideas
> and upgrades that are prevalent on this list at present.
> 
> Thoughts ?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Gav...
> 
>