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Posted to dev@forrest.apache.org by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org> on 2002/02/14 13:55:57 UTC
[provocative] crushing userland
Dave said that Apache is the only real alternative to .NET... if only
had a serious CMS.... ihihih, oh, he's so right on this :)
So, let's make a deal: I'll help writing a weblog framework (Ugo, I need
your help!) on top of Cocoon and you guys move your weblogs over to
Forrest?
Gosh, it hurts my spirit so bad to see Sam using Radio for his weblog.
--
Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: [provocative] crushing userland
Posted by Santiago Gala <sg...@hisitech.com>.
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>Dave said that Apache is the only real alternative to .NET... if only
>had a serious CMS.... ihihih, oh, he's so right on this :)
>
Following the echoes of the discussion on J2EE in jakarta-general, I
have been thinking a lot:
- we've got some free java VMs:
- IBM has interesting stuff (with closed class libraries)
- kaffe (I was able to run tomcat reasonably after patching a bit in
C and a little bit more in java.lang) Putting Sun's swing classes in the
path I was able to run some of Sun's jfc demos. Missing pieces are due
to the minimalistic approach taken by the kaffe people, but they can be
easily worked around.
- kaffe is slow but takes soooo little memory... I wonder if it is
suitable for production sites.
- I imagine someone out there (in the cold) is working in having a way
to interpret C# in a java VM (maybe slightly extended). If not, this
could make for an interesting jakarta project.
- There is definitely interest on having alternatives to RMI, EJB and
other closed J2EE technologies in jakarta.
...
We could play some embrace and extend with Microsoft themselves ;)
>
>So, let's make a deal: I'll help writing a weblog framework (Ugo, I need
>your help!) on top of Cocoon and you guys move your weblogs over to
>Forrest?
>
>Gosh, it hurts my spirit so bad to see Sam using Radio for his weblog.
>
P.S.) Just thinking high today. I fear reality will take care of my
expectations soon. But here we've got a sunny february day :-)
P.P.S) Expert in debugging and micro-patching to make things work.
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Re: [provocative] crushing userland
Posted by Matt Sergeant <ma...@sergeant.org>.
On Mon, 18 Feb 2002, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> Ugo Cei wrote:
> >
> > Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> >
> > > cvs checkout xml-forrest
> >
> > Done.
> >
> > >>And what do you mean by "move your weblogs over to Forrest"? What
> > >>exactly IS Forrest? I am not subscribed to forrest-dev, unfortunately.
> > >>
> > >
> > > Oh, this can be easily solved ;-)
> >
> > Done.
> >
> > I gave a quick look at Radio in the weekend and seen that it is based on
> > OPML (http://www.opml.org). I don't really like OPML though. Do you
> > think that we should use or support OPML, or use some other kind of markup?
>
> OPML sucks!
>
> It's horrible! It's doing the HTML mistake over again.
>
> Anyway, can't we *directly* use RSS for blogs? is much more semantic
> than OPML anyway.
Yes. See http://axkit.org/irclog.xml - a blog in AxKit that we fill in
from our IRC channel. It's all RSS 1.0 + Dublin Core behind the scenes.
--
<!-- Matt -->
<:->Get a smart net</:->
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Re: [provocative] crushing userland
Posted by Ugo Cei <u....@cbim.it>.
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> OPML sucks!
I resonate with this view ;-).
> Anyway, can't we *directly* use RSS for blogs? is much more semantic
> than OPML anyway.
Yes. Possibily using the Content
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rss-dev/files/Modules/Standard/mod_content.html)
module to augment descriptions with XHTML?
Now we just need a good RSS editor to embed in a web page. Any suggestions?
Ugo
--
Ugo Cei - Consorzio di Bioingegneria e Informatica Medica
P.le Volontari del Sangue, 2 - 27100 Pavia - Italy
Phone: +39.0382.525100 - E-mail: u.cei@cbim.it
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Re: [provocative] crushing userland
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Ugo Cei wrote:
>
> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
> > Anyway, can't we *directly* use RSS for blogs? is much more semantic
> > than OPML anyway.
>
> You asked for it, you got it. My "embryo-of-a-blog"
> (http://violetta.cbim.it/cocoon/mount/beeb/) now uses RSS 1.0.
Cool, I'll check that out.
> You can also get the raw RSS feed by clicking on the little "XML" button
> in the bottom right.
>
> I have a problem now. I want to limit the entries displayed in the
> homepage to the 20 most recent or so. I could do it in XSLT but it would
> be horrible performance-wise as the numner of entries grows. I really
> need to sort the entries in reverse date order and retrieve only the
> first N items in the collection and do it in the XMLDB source. Ideas anyone?
>
> Ugo
>
> P.S.: should we move this discussion to forrest-dev or maybe cross-post?
Yeah, I think we should move this over to forrest-dev
--
Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: [provocative] crushing userland
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Kimbro Staken wrote:
>
> On Friday, February 22, 2002, at 01:16 AM, Ugo Cei wrote:
>
> > Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> >
> >> Anyway, can't we *directly* use RSS for blogs? is much more semantic
> >> than OPML anyway.
> >
> > You asked for it, you got it. My "embryo-of-a-blog"
> > (http://violetta.cbim.it/cocoon/mount/beeb/) now uses RSS 1.0.
> >
> > You can also get the raw RSS feed by clicking on the little "XML" button
> > in the bottom right.
> >
> > I have a problem now. I want to limit the entries displayed in the
> > homepage to the 20 most recent or so. I could do it in XSLT but it would
> > be horrible performance-wise as the numner of entries grows. I really
> > need to sort the entries in reverse date order and retrieve only the
> > first N items in the collection and do it in the XMLDB source. Ideas
> > anyone?
> >
>
> We need a richer language then XPath to do that. It will come with XQuery,
> but it's a long way off. We'll need to figure something out in the short
> term, but I'm not sure what. XSL-T is probably the best solution today. To
> keep the size of the result set down you might need to limit the query to
> just retrieving the last 7 days of posts or something along those lines.
> Not ideal, I know.
Scott was goint to implement XPointer ranges into the Xalan XPath
engine.
That would work.
--
Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: [provocative] crushing userland
Posted by Ugo Cei <u....@cbim.it>.
Robert Koberg wrote:
> you could create a xsl:key on 'time', cache the stylesheet, and access it
> much faster.
Yes but I don't want to pass the WHOLE collection through the
stylesheet, in any case.
Ugo
--
Ugo Cei - Consorzio di Bioingegneria e Informatica Medica
P.le Volontari del Sangue, 2 - 27100 Pavia - Italy
Phone: +39.0382.525100 - E-mail: u.cei@cbim.it
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Re: [provocative] crushing userland
Posted by Robert Koberg <ro...@koberg.com>.
Hi,
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vadim Gritsenko" <va...@verizon.net>
> > From: Kimbro Staken [mailto:kstaken@xmldatabases.org]
> >
> > We need a richer language then XPath to do that. It will come with
> XQuery,
> > but it's a long way off. We'll need to figure something out in the
> short
> > term, but I'm not sure what. XSL-T is probably the best solution
> today. To
> > keep the size of the result set down you might need to limit the query
> to
> > just retrieving the last 7 days of posts or something along those
> lines.
> > Not ideal, I know.
>
> Isn't Xindice collection already ordered by time document was inserted?
>
> Than simple query like /db/blog/*[position() > last()-20] should work
> then, or something like /db/blog/*[position() =
> last()]/preceding::*[position() < 20] should even inverse the order...
>
this would lead to bad performance. Each time you have to grab all the nodes
in /db/blog
[don't know the structure of the XML...]
you could create a xsl:key on 'time', cache the stylesheet, and access it
much faster.
-Rob
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Re: [provocative] crushing userland
Posted by Kimbro Staken <ks...@xmldatabases.org>.
>
>
> It reminds me about some thread in the xindice-dev about having access
> to the DB as to the one huge XML file (here: access to the collection as
> to one XML). Then it will work, but I'm not sure when this will be
> implemented (if it will be)...
>
This is something I'm exploring right now, it's a really fundamental
change to the query engine, but the more I look into it the more I'm
convinced it will be more usable. This discussion just further confirms
that feeling.
> Vadim
>
>
Kimbro Staken - http://www.kstaken.org - http://www.xmldatabases.org
Apache Xindice native XML database http://xml.apache.org
XML:DB Initiative http://www.xmldb.org
Senior Technologist (Your company name here)
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RE: [provocative] crushing userland
Posted by Vadim Gritsenko <va...@verizon.net>.
> From: Ugo Cei [mailto:u.cei@cbim.it]
>
> Vadim Gritsenko wrote:
>
> > Isn't Xindice collection already ordered by time document was
inserted?
>
> It looks like it is, but I don't know if this is guaranteed.
I suspect the order is preserved because of trees. Let Xindice gurus
confirm this.
> > Than simple query like /db/blog/*[position() > last()-20] should
work
> > then, or something like /db/blog/*[position() =
> > last()]/preceding::*[position() < 20] should even inverse the
order...
>
> It doesn't work. position() is 1 for all the nodes returned. This
> sitemap entry retrieves all the items in the collection:
>
> <map:match pattern="">
> <map:generate
>
src="xmldb:xindice://dbsun.cbim.it:4080/db/rssblog/#/rss:item[position()
=1]"/>
> <map:transform src="stylesheets/xmldb2rss.xsl" label="rss"/>
> <map:transform src="stylesheets/blog.xsl"/>
> <map:serialize/>
> </map:match>
>
> If I change "position()=1" to "position()=2", then no item is found.
Oops. :(
However, it makes sense - XPath is executed for every document in
collection independently.
It reminds me about some thread in the xindice-dev about having access
to the DB as to the one huge XML file (here: access to the collection as
to one XML). Then it will work, but I'm not sure when this will be
implemented (if it will be)...
Vadim
> Ugo
>
>
> --
> Ugo Cei - Consorzio di Bioingegneria e Informatica Medica
> P.le Volontari del Sangue, 2 - 27100 Pavia - Italy
> Phone: +39.0382.525100 - E-mail: u.cei@cbim.it
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Re: [provocative] crushing userland
Posted by Kimbro Staken <ks...@xmldatabases.org>.
On Friday, February 22, 2002, at 10:03 AM, Ugo Cei wrote:
> Vadim Gritsenko wrote:
>
>> Isn't Xindice collection already ordered by time document was inserted?
>
> It looks like it is, but I don't know if this is guaranteed.
>
It's not, indexing in particular could alter the order.
>> Than simple query like /db/blog/*[position() > last()-20] should work
>> then, or something like /db/blog/*[position() =
>> last()]/preceding::*[position() < 20] should even inverse the order...
>
> It doesn't work. position() is 1 for all the nodes returned. This sitemap
> entry retrieves all the items in the collection:
>
That's right, position will only apply within a single document, not
across documents in a collection.
> <map:match pattern="">
> <map:generate
> src="xmldb:xindice://dbsun.cbim.it:4080/db/rssblog/#/rss:item[position()=1]
> "/>
> <map:transform src="stylesheets/xmldb2rss.xsl" label="rss"/>
> <map:transform src="stylesheets/blog.xsl"/>
> <map:serialize/>
> </map:match>
>
> If I change "position()=1" to "position()=2", then no item is found.
>
> Ugo
>
>
> -- Ugo Cei - Consorzio di Bioingegneria e Informatica Medica
> P.le Volontari del Sangue, 2 - 27100 Pavia - Italy
> Phone: +39.0382.525100 - E-mail: u.cei@cbim.it
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: cocoon-dev-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
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>
>
Kimbro Staken - http://www.kstaken.org - http://www.xmldatabases.org
Apache Xindice native XML database http://xml.apache.org
XML:DB Initiative http://www.xmldb.org
Senior Technologist (Your company name here)
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Re: [provocative] crushing userland
Posted by Ugo Cei <u....@cbim.it>.
Vadim Gritsenko wrote:
> Isn't Xindice collection already ordered by time document was inserted?
It looks like it is, but I don't know if this is guaranteed.
> Than simple query like /db/blog/*[position() > last()-20] should work
> then, or something like /db/blog/*[position() =
> last()]/preceding::*[position() < 20] should even inverse the order...
It doesn't work. position() is 1 for all the nodes returned. This
sitemap entry retrieves all the items in the collection:
<map:match pattern="">
<map:generate
src="xmldb:xindice://dbsun.cbim.it:4080/db/rssblog/#/rss:item[position()=1]"/>
<map:transform src="stylesheets/xmldb2rss.xsl" label="rss"/>
<map:transform src="stylesheets/blog.xsl"/>
<map:serialize/>
</map:match>
If I change "position()=1" to "position()=2", then no item is found.
Ugo
--
Ugo Cei - Consorzio di Bioingegneria e Informatica Medica
P.le Volontari del Sangue, 2 - 27100 Pavia - Italy
Phone: +39.0382.525100 - E-mail: u.cei@cbim.it
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RE: [provocative] crushing userland
Posted by Vadim Gritsenko <va...@verizon.net>.
> From: Kimbro Staken [mailto:kstaken@xmldatabases.org]
>
> On Friday, February 22, 2002, at 01:16 AM, Ugo Cei wrote:
>
> > Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> >
> >> Anyway, can't we *directly* use RSS for blogs? is much more
semantic
> >> than OPML anyway.
> >
> > You asked for it, you got it. My "embryo-of-a-blog"
> > (http://violetta.cbim.it/cocoon/mount/beeb/) now uses RSS 1.0.
> >
> > You can also get the raw RSS feed by clicking on the little "XML"
button
> > in the bottom right.
> >
> > I have a problem now. I want to limit the entries displayed in the
> > homepage to the 20 most recent or so. I could do it in XSLT but it
would
> > be horrible performance-wise as the numner of entries grows. I
really
> > need to sort the entries in reverse date order and retrieve only the
> > first N items in the collection and do it in the XMLDB source. Ideas
> > anyone?
> >
>
> We need a richer language then XPath to do that. It will come with
XQuery,
> but it's a long way off. We'll need to figure something out in the
short
> term, but I'm not sure what. XSL-T is probably the best solution
today. To
> keep the size of the result set down you might need to limit the query
to
> just retrieving the last 7 days of posts or something along those
lines.
> Not ideal, I know.
Isn't Xindice collection already ordered by time document was inserted?
Than simple query like /db/blog/*[position() > last()-20] should work
then, or something like /db/blog/*[position() =
last()]/preceding::*[position() < 20] should even inverse the order...
Vadim
> > Ugo
> >
> > P.S.: should we move this discussion to forrest-dev or maybe
cross-post?
> >
> >
> > -- Ugo Cei - Consorzio di Bioingegneria e Informatica Medica
> > P.le Volontari del Sangue, 2 - 27100 Pavia - Italy
> > Phone: +39.0382.525100 - E-mail: u.cei@cbim.it
> >
> >
> >
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> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: cocoon-dev-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
> > For additional commands, email: cocoon-dev-help@xml.apache.org
> >
> >
> Kimbro Staken - http://www.kstaken.org - http://www.xmldatabases.org
> Apache Xindice native XML database http://xml.apache.org
> XML:DB Initiative http://www.xmldb.org
> Senior Technologist (Your company name here)
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Re: [provocative] crushing userland
Posted by Kimbro Staken <ks...@xmldatabases.org>.
On Friday, February 22, 2002, at 01:16 AM, Ugo Cei wrote:
> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
>> Anyway, can't we *directly* use RSS for blogs? is much more semantic
>> than OPML anyway.
>
> You asked for it, you got it. My "embryo-of-a-blog"
> (http://violetta.cbim.it/cocoon/mount/beeb/) now uses RSS 1.0.
>
> You can also get the raw RSS feed by clicking on the little "XML" button
> in the bottom right.
>
> I have a problem now. I want to limit the entries displayed in the
> homepage to the 20 most recent or so. I could do it in XSLT but it would
> be horrible performance-wise as the numner of entries grows. I really
> need to sort the entries in reverse date order and retrieve only the
> first N items in the collection and do it in the XMLDB source. Ideas
> anyone?
>
We need a richer language then XPath to do that. It will come with XQuery,
but it's a long way off. We'll need to figure something out in the short
term, but I'm not sure what. XSL-T is probably the best solution today. To
keep the size of the result set down you might need to limit the query to
just retrieving the last 7 days of posts or something along those lines.
Not ideal, I know.
> Ugo
>
> P.S.: should we move this discussion to forrest-dev or maybe cross-post?
>
>
> -- Ugo Cei - Consorzio di Bioingegneria e Informatica Medica
> P.le Volontari del Sangue, 2 - 27100 Pavia - Italy
> Phone: +39.0382.525100 - E-mail: u.cei@cbim.it
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: cocoon-dev-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
> For additional commands, email: cocoon-dev-help@xml.apache.org
>
>
Kimbro Staken - http://www.kstaken.org - http://www.xmldatabases.org
Apache Xindice native XML database http://xml.apache.org
XML:DB Initiative http://www.xmldb.org
Senior Technologist (Your company name here)
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Re: [provocative] crushing userland
Posted by Ugo Cei <u....@cbim.it>.
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> Anyway, can't we *directly* use RSS for blogs? is much more semantic
> than OPML anyway.
You asked for it, you got it. My "embryo-of-a-blog"
(http://violetta.cbim.it/cocoon/mount/beeb/) now uses RSS 1.0.
You can also get the raw RSS feed by clicking on the little "XML" button
in the bottom right.
I have a problem now. I want to limit the entries displayed in the
homepage to the 20 most recent or so. I could do it in XSLT but it would
be horrible performance-wise as the numner of entries grows. I really
need to sort the entries in reverse date order and retrieve only the
first N items in the collection and do it in the XMLDB source. Ideas anyone?
Ugo
P.S.: should we move this discussion to forrest-dev or maybe cross-post?
--
Ugo Cei - Consorzio di Bioingegneria e Informatica Medica
P.le Volontari del Sangue, 2 - 27100 Pavia - Italy
Phone: +39.0382.525100 - E-mail: u.cei@cbim.it
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Re: [provocative] crushing userland
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Ugo Cei wrote:
>
> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
> > cvs checkout xml-forrest
>
> Done.
>
> >>And what do you mean by "move your weblogs over to Forrest"? What
> >>exactly IS Forrest? I am not subscribed to forrest-dev, unfortunately.
> >>
> >
> > Oh, this can be easily solved ;-)
>
> Done.
>
> I gave a quick look at Radio in the weekend and seen that it is based on
> OPML (http://www.opml.org). I don't really like OPML though. Do you
> think that we should use or support OPML, or use some other kind of markup?
OPML sucks!
It's horrible! It's doing the HTML mistake over again.
Anyway, can't we *directly* use RSS for blogs? is much more semantic
than OPML anyway.
--
Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
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What can we learn from Radio [was: [provocative] crushing userland]
Posted by Matthew Langham <ml...@s-und-n.de>.
>>
Anyway, that's a quick overview. Overall, Radio is kind of weird, very
quirky and has more then its share of bugs and annoyances, but I still
find myself liking it more each day I use it. It feels dirty to say that,
but it is what it is.
<<
I have to agree with Kimbo here. The more I use Radio the more I find myself
liking the way it works. The only real problem I have is not being able to
update my "cloud" from home and work easily - but that is really a different
story.
Anyway, I do not see Cocoon as being competition to Radio as the two
concepts are quite different. However there are a couple of points that
warrant looking at to see how Cocoon could be extended to offer similar
functions.
As we have been discussing there is the blogging side (i.e. Cocoon acting as
a blog server). I still think this would be an interesting feature to
provide and would exist well in for example a portal. And implementing
something along the lines of the blogging XML-RPC api which feeds Xindice
should be pretty easy.
Something else that Radio handles extremely well is being able to call web
services from the Radio environment using macros. Now again, being able to
integrate web services as datasources for a portal would be neat. And
imagine if you only had to write something like:
<soapcall>["soap://localhost:5335/"].examples.getCurrentTime ()</soapcall>
to call a SOAP service from inside Cocoon. That's how easy it is from inside
Radio.
So while I don't think anything will be crushing userland soon - I _do_
think there are some interesting ideas there.
Matthew
--
Open Source Group sunShine - Lighting up e:Business
=================================================================
Matthew Langham, S&N AG, Klingenderstrasse 5, D-33100 Paderborn
Tel:+49-5251-1581-30 mlangham@s-und-n.de - http://www.s-und-n.de
Weblogging at: http://www.need-a-cake.com
=================================================================
-----Original Message-----
From: Kimbro Staken [mailto:kstaken@xmldatabases.org]
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 11:51 AM
To: cocoon-dev@xml.apache.org
Subject: Re: [provocative] crushing userland
On Monday, February 18, 2002, at 02:23 AM, Ugo Cei wrote:
>
> Done.
>
> I gave a quick look at Radio in the weekend and seen that it is based on
> OPML (http://www.opml.org). I don't really like OPML though. Do you think
> that we should use or support OPML, or use some other kind of markup?
>
Radio isn't really based on OPML, it's more based on plaintext. If you
looked at the native app then everything is a really funky outline thing,
that isn't really what Radio is to the user. Look at the web interface and
the files generated through that. The native app just sits in the
background and controls everything. If you want to modify the code behind
Radio, or access the object database directly, that's when you dig into
the Radio app itself.
Radio uses a combination of the file system and its object database to
store content. Most things go into the file system, but actual weblog post
contents are stored in the object database as text. All typical end user
interaction is through a web browser. When you post a new weblog entry it
generates several static web pages and an RSS file and automatically
uploads them to one or more servers.
The system does a lot of processing of the posted text, like turning
things it thinks are URLs into links, email address into mailto links and
automatically wrapping paragraphs in <p> tags. It has keyword expansion
that can lead to unexpected and annoying results sometimes, especially
since it isn't clearly documented. It also has macro capabilities that you
can type directly into your posts. All of this stuff is used to generate a
static web page, the published site isn't dynamic at all.
The system also monitors a directory hierarchy on disk so that any file
you drop into it will automatically get published to the server. Dropping
a .txt file will result it in it being turned into a web page with all
your styles applied automatically. It applies the same processing there as
it does for weblog posts. You can have different styles for different
parts of the tree and can have them publish to different servers.
Style and publishing controls are done through text files in the file
system. Any file that begins with a # is a Radio system file and won't be
published to the server. Dropping the same file deeper in a hierarchy will
override all like named files higher in the hierarchy.
Anyway, that's a quick overview. Overall, Radio is kind of weird, very
quirky and has more then its share of bugs and annoyances, but I still
find myself liking it more each day I use it. It feels dirty to say that,
but it is what it is.
> Ugo
>
> -- Ugo Cei - Consorzio di Bioingegneria e Informatica Medica
> P.le Volontari del Sangue, 2 - 27100 Pavia - Italy
> Phone: +39.0382.525100 - E-mail: u.cei@cbim.it
>
>
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>
>
Kimbro Staken
XML Database Software, Consulting and Writing
http://www.xmldatabases.org/
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Re: [provocative] crushing userland
Posted by Kimbro Staken <ks...@xmldatabases.org>.
On Monday, February 18, 2002, at 02:23 AM, Ugo Cei wrote:
>
> Done.
>
> I gave a quick look at Radio in the weekend and seen that it is based on
> OPML (http://www.opml.org). I don't really like OPML though. Do you think
> that we should use or support OPML, or use some other kind of markup?
>
Radio isn't really based on OPML, it's more based on plaintext. If you
looked at the native app then everything is a really funky outline thing,
that isn't really what Radio is to the user. Look at the web interface and
the files generated through that. The native app just sits in the
background and controls everything. If you want to modify the code behind
Radio, or access the object database directly, that's when you dig into
the Radio app itself.
Radio uses a combination of the file system and its object database to
store content. Most things go into the file system, but actual weblog post
contents are stored in the object database as text. All typical end user
interaction is through a web browser. When you post a new weblog entry it
generates several static web pages and an RSS file and automatically
uploads them to one or more servers.
The system does a lot of processing of the posted text, like turning
things it thinks are URLs into links, email address into mailto links and
automatically wrapping paragraphs in <p> tags. It has keyword expansion
that can lead to unexpected and annoying results sometimes, especially
since it isn't clearly documented. It also has macro capabilities that you
can type directly into your posts. All of this stuff is used to generate a
static web page, the published site isn't dynamic at all.
The system also monitors a directory hierarchy on disk so that any file
you drop into it will automatically get published to the server. Dropping
a .txt file will result it in it being turned into a web page with all
your styles applied automatically. It applies the same processing there as
it does for weblog posts. You can have different styles for different
parts of the tree and can have them publish to different servers.
Style and publishing controls are done through text files in the file
system. Any file that begins with a # is a Radio system file and won't be
published to the server. Dropping the same file deeper in a hierarchy will
override all like named files higher in the hierarchy.
Anyway, that's a quick overview. Overall, Radio is kind of weird, very
quirky and has more then its share of bugs and annoyances, but I still
find myself liking it more each day I use it. It feels dirty to say that,
but it is what it is.
> Ugo
>
> -- Ugo Cei - Consorzio di Bioingegneria e Informatica Medica
> P.le Volontari del Sangue, 2 - 27100 Pavia - Italy
> Phone: +39.0382.525100 - E-mail: u.cei@cbim.it
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
Kimbro Staken
XML Database Software, Consulting and Writing
http://www.xmldatabases.org/
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Re: [provocative] crushing userland
Posted by Ugo Cei <u....@cbim.it>.
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> cvs checkout xml-forrest
Done.
>>And what do you mean by "move your weblogs over to Forrest"? What
>>exactly IS Forrest? I am not subscribed to forrest-dev, unfortunately.
>>
>
> Oh, this can be easily solved ;-)
Done.
I gave a quick look at Radio in the weekend and seen that it is based on
OPML (http://www.opml.org). I don't really like OPML though. Do you
think that we should use or support OPML, or use some other kind of markup?
Ugo
--
Ugo Cei - Consorzio di Bioingegneria e Informatica Medica
P.le Volontari del Sangue, 2 - 27100 Pavia - Italy
Phone: +39.0382.525100 - E-mail: u.cei@cbim.it
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Re: [provocative] crushing userland
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Ugo Cei wrote:
>
> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
> > So, let's make a deal: I'll help writing a weblog framework (Ugo, I need
> > your help!) on top of Cocoon and you guys move your weblogs over to
> > Forrest?
>
> Are you offering help or ar you asking for it? ;-).
Both.
> Anyway, let's do it, where do we start from?
cvs checkout xml-forrest
> And what do you mean by "move your weblogs over to Forrest"? What
> exactly IS Forrest? I am not subscribed to forrest-dev, unfortunately.
Oh, this can be easily solved ;-)
[I know you hate me now, but forrest is (currently) a low traffic mail
list so don't worry about your inbox]
--
Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: [provocative] crushing userland
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Ugo Cei wrote:
>
> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
> > So, let's make a deal: I'll help writing a weblog framework (Ugo, I need
> > your help!) on top of Cocoon and you guys move your weblogs over to
> > Forrest?
>
> Are you offering help or ar you asking for it? ;-).
Both.
> Anyway, let's do it, where do we start from?
cvs checkout xml-forrest
> And what do you mean by "move your weblogs over to Forrest"? What
> exactly IS Forrest? I am not subscribed to forrest-dev, unfortunately.
Oh, this can be easily solved ;-)
[I know you hate me now, but forrest is (currently) a low traffic mail
list so don't worry about your inbox]
--
Stefano MazzX-Mozilla-Status: 0009ill have chaos in oneself to be
able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: AW: [provocative] crushing userland
Posted by Kimbro Staken <ks...@dbxmlgroup.com>.
I missed the beginning of this thread. What prompted a subject of
"crushing userland"?
On Friday, February 15, 2002, at 02:00 AM, Matthew Langham wrote:
> Hi,
>
> As I wrote yesterday I have hacked together an example showing how to add
> blogging capabilities to Cocoon. It is very simple - because I need it as
> a
> demonstration later today - but it shows how to use something like
> blogBuddy to add blogging entries to HSQL. I will post an article on my
> web
> log later in the day explaining how it's done. Maybe that can be a
> starting
> point.
>
> Matthew
>
> --
> Open Source Group sunShine - Lighting up e:Business
> =================================================================
> Matthew Langham, S&N AG, Klingenderstrasse 5, D-33100 Paderborn
> Tel:+49-5251-1581-30 mlangham@s-und-n.de - http://www.s-und-n.de
> Weblogging at: http://www.need-a-cake.com
> =================================================================
>
>
>
>
> -----Ursprungliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Ugo Cei [mailto:u.cei@cbim.it]
> Gesendet: Freitag, 15. Februar 2002 09:38
> An: cocoon-dev@xml.apache.org
> Betreff: Re: [provocative] crushing userland
>
>
> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
>
>> So, let's make a deal: I'll help writing a weblog framework (Ugo, I need
>> your help!) on top of Cocoon and you guys move your weblogs over to
>> Forrest?
>
> Are you offering help or ar you asking for it? ;-).
>
> Anyway, let's do it, where do we start from?
>
> And what do you mean by "move your weblogs over to Forrest"? What
> exactly IS Forrest? I am not subscribed to forrest-dev, unfortunately.
>
> Ugo
>
> --
> Ugo Cei - Consorzio di Bioingegneria e Informatica Medica
> P.le Volontari del Sangue, 2 - 27100 Pavia - Italy
> Phone: +39.0382.525100 - E-mail: u.cei@cbim.it
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: cocoon-dev-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
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>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
Kimbro Staken
XML Database Software, Consulting and Writing
http://www.xmldatabases.org/
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AW: [provocative] crushing userland
Posted by Matthew Langham <ml...@s-und-n.de>.
Hi,
As I wrote yesterday I have hacked together an example showing how to add
blogging capabilities to Cocoon. It is very simple - because I need it as a
demonstration later today - but it shows how to use something like
blogBuddy to add blogging entries to HSQL. I will post an article on my web
log later in the day explaining how it's done. Maybe that can be a starting
point.
Matthew
--
Open Source Group sunShine - Lighting up e:Business
=================================================================
Matthew Langham, S&N AG, Klingenderstrasse 5, D-33100 Paderborn
Tel:+49-5251-1581-30 mlangham@s-und-n.de - http://www.s-und-n.de
Weblogging at: http://www.need-a-cake.com
=================================================================
-----Ursprungliche Nachricht-----
Von: Ugo Cei [mailto:u.cei@cbim.it]
Gesendet: Freitag, 15. Februar 2002 09:38
An: cocoon-dev@xml.apache.org
Betreff: Re: [provocative] crushing userland
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> So, let's make a deal: I'll help writing a weblog framework (Ugo, I need
> your help!) on top of Cocoon and you guys move your weblogs over to
> Forrest?
Are you offering help or ar you asking for it? ;-).
Anyway, let's do it, where do we start from?
And what do you mean by "move your weblogs over to Forrest"? What
exactly IS Forrest? I am not subscribed to forrest-dev, unfortunately.
Ugo
--
Ugo Cei - Consorzio di Bioingegneria e Informatica Medica
P.le Volontari del Sangue, 2 - 27100 Pavia - Italy
Phone: +39.0382.525100 - E-mail: u.cei@cbim.it
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Re: [provocative] crushing userland
Posted by Ugo Cei <u....@cbim.it>.
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> So, let's make a deal: I'll help writing a weblog framework (Ugo, I need
> your help!) on top of Cocoon and you guys move your weblogs over to
> Forrest?
Are you offering help or ar you asking for it? ;-).
Anyway, let's do it, where do we start from?
And what do you mean by "move your weblogs over to Forrest"? What
exactly IS Forrest? I am not subscribed to forrest-dev, unfortunately.
Ugo
--
Ugo Cei - Consorzio di Bioingegneria e Informatica Medica
P.le Volontari del Sangue, 2 - 27100 Pavia - Italy
Phone: +39.0382.525100 - E-mail: u.cei@cbim.it
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Re: [provocative] crushing userland
Posted by Kimbro Staken <ks...@xmldatabases.org>.
On Friday, February 15, 2002, at 10:42 AM, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
> Oh, generally speaking nothing. In this case, the fact that Cocoon could
> *easily* implement the same stuff and I want Forrest to do it (checkout
> xml-forrest and read the docs to know more!)
You might be underestimating just how much Radio does. There's much more
to it then just simple blogging. I use it heavily and while I certainly
think it would be cool to have a replacement built around more modern
technology I have no real motivation to create one, Radio works just fine
"most" of the time. It's also cheap and reasonably open, you can hack most
of the source that runs the thing if you really want. Could it be improved?
You bet it can, but for Radio users the motivation is low as it works
pretty well now.
Also it sounds like what you're describing is more of a Manila replacement
then a Radio replacement. While the general tech is the same, the
philosophy and the details are somewhat different. i.e. desktop app vs.
server app, multi user vs. single user.
There's also some additional intangible appeal to Radio from a community
perspective. Could this be duplicated? Yes of course, but that will be
even more difficult.
For me personally I'm also kind of rubbed the wrong way by the "crushing
userland" idea. I don't subscribe to the Free Software philosophy and have
no problem using commercial software when it is better then open source
offerings. This is why I use Mac OS X and it's why I use Radio. One of the
appeals of the ASF is that it doesn't espouse this fanatical GPL wielding
philosophy of free software everywhere and this works in our favor by
being openly friendly to commercial endeavors. If we start founding
projects with the goal of "crushing company X", that sends a very bad
signal to those companies that are paying developers to work on ASF
projects. This is regardless of how wacked out the CEO of company X may be.
BTW, I do actually like the idea of an ASF project for blogging. As a
developer for Xindice I would certainly love to see such a thing exist
because it's a logical use of the tech and would show things off pretty
well. Unfortunately, I "use" Radio as a tool because it makes me
productive and going to a new and less mature system will destroy that
productivity. A basic blogging tool won't be enough to get me to switch,
that's what I used before Radio and I have no desire to go back.
Yep, definitely a provocative idea. :-)
Kimbro Staken
XML Database Software, Consulting and Writing
http://www.xmldatabases.org/
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Re: [provocative] crushing userland
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Steven Noels wrote:
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Stefano Mazzocchi [mailto:stefano@apache.org]
> > Sent: donderdag 14 februari 2002 13:56
> > To: Apache Cocoon
> > Cc: Apache Forrest
> > Subject: [provocative] crushing userland
> >
> >
> > Dave said that Apache is the only real alternative to .NET... if only
> > had a serious CMS.... ihihih, oh, he's so right on this :)
> >
> > So, let's make a deal: I'll help writing a weblog framework
> > (Ugo, I need
> > your help!) on top of Cocoon and you guys move your weblogs over to
> > Forrest?
> >
> > Gosh, it hurts my spirit so bad to see Sam using Radio for his weblog.
>
> As we are, and Matthew is. What's wrong with Radio?
Oh, generally speaking nothing. In this case, the fact that Cocoon could
*easily* implement the same stuff and I want Forrest to do it (checkout
xml-forrest and read the docs to know more!)
> It spits out nice
> RSS/XML files that you can publish through Cocoon/Forrest, and it offers
> a nice webapp to create your weblog entries. Besides that, the app is
> running on your local machine(s) so you're in control of its
> (mal)functioning.
>
> Admittedly the Frontier scripting language is something equally weird as
> XSP's, not as cool as Java, and the internal sort-of-OODBMS not as cool
> as an XML Native DB such as Xindice, but it does the job pretty nicely,
> and is more open (SOAP, RSS, XML-RPC) than some alternatives...
>
> OK, this was me falling in your [provocative] pitfall :-)
>
> Seriously, let's focus rather than divert.
Exactly, sam provoques me, I provoque you, you provoque somebody else
and forrest grows :)
--
Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneselfX-Mozilla-Status: 0009 able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: [provocative] crushing userland
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Steven Noels wrote:
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Stefano Mazzocchi [mailto:stefano@apache.org]
> > Sent: donderdag 14 februari 2002 13:56
> > To: Apache Cocoon
> > Cc: Apache Forrest
> > Subject: [provocative] crushing userland
> >
> >
> > Dave said that Apache is the only real alternative to .NET... if only
> > had a serious CMS.... ihihih, oh, he's so right on this :)
> >
> > So, let's make a deal: I'll help writing a weblog framework
> > (Ugo, I need
> > your help!) on top of Cocoon and you guys move your weblogs over to
> > Forrest?
> >
> > Gosh, it hurts my spirit so bad to see Sam using Radio for his weblog.
>
> As we are, and Matthew is. What's wrong with Radio?
Oh, generally speaking nothing. In this case, the fact that Cocoon could
*easily* implement the same stuff and I want Forrest to do it (checkout
xml-forrest and read the docs to know more!)
> It spits out nice
> RSS/XML files that you can publish through Cocoon/Forrest, and it offers
> a nice webapp to create your weblog entries. Besides that, the app is
> running on your local machine(s) so you're in control of its
> (mal)functioning.
>
> Admittedly the Frontier scripting language is something equally weird as
> XSP's, not as cool as Java, and the internal sort-of-OODBMS not as cool
> as an XML Native DB such as Xindice, but it does the job pretty nicely,
> and is more open (SOAP, RSS, XML-RPC) than some alternatives...
>
> OK, this was me falling in your [provocative] pitfall :-)
>
> Seriously, let's focus rather than divert.
Exactly, sam provoques me, I provoque you, you provoque somebody else
and forrest grows :)
--
Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
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RE: [provocative] crushing userland
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stefano Mazzocchi [mailto:stefano@apache.org]
> Sent: donderdag 14 februari 2002 13:56
> To: Apache Cocoon
> Cc: Apache Forrest
> Subject: [provocative] crushing userland
>
>
> Dave said that Apache is the only real alternative to .NET... if only
> had a serious CMS.... ihihih, oh, he's so right on this :)
>
> So, let's make a deal: I'll help writing a weblog framework
> (Ugo, I need
> your help!) on top of Cocoon and you guys move your weblogs over to
> Forrest?
>
> Gosh, it hurts my spirit so bad to see Sam using Radio for his weblog.
As we are, and Matthew is. What's wrong with Radio? It spits out nice
RSS/XML files that you can publish through Cocoon/Forrest, and it offers
a nice webapp to create your weblog entries. Besides that, the app is
running on your local machine(s) so you're in control of its
(mal)functioning.
Admittedly the Frontier scripting language is something equally weird as
XSP's, not as cool as Java, and the internal sort-of-OODBMS not as cool
as an XML Native DB such as Xindice, but it does the job pretty nicely,
and is more open (SOAP, RSS, XML-RPC) than some alternatives...
OK, this was me falling in your [provocative] pitfall :-)
Seriously, let's focus rather than divert.
</Steven>
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Re: [provocative] crushing userland
Posted by Michael Hartle <mh...@hartle-klug.com>.
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>As Sam puts it, cross-pollination between communities is the key for
>massive growth and there is very little cross-pollination between the
>CMS world and the ASF, until very recently (say 3/4 months).
>
In that light it is an interesting fact that the Documentum Web
Publisher uses the Xerces parser
internally; I stumbled across this about 6-7 months ago ;)
Best regards,
Michael Hartle,
Hartle & Klug GbR
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Re: [provocative] crushing userland
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Matt Sergeant wrote:
>
> On Fri, 15 Feb 2002, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
> > Matt Sergeant wrote:
> > >
> > > On Thu, 14 Feb 2002, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> > >
> > > > Dave said that Apache is the only real alternative to .NET... if only
> > > > had a serious CMS.... ihihih, oh, he's so right on this :)
> > >
> > > He's so wrong it hurts. There are many very serious CMS's built on top of
> > > Apache.
> >
> > But ASF project for that.
> >
> > That's the point.
>
> So invite one in. Bricolage is looking particularly spectacular.
no offense to anyone, but my level of 'spectacularity' is much higher
than that. And believe me, I'm working to show you what I mean in the
future.
> Alternatively maybe I should ask why? Does everything have to be an ASF
> project? It's not like I'm talking about closed source efforts.
Here is my reasoning: the Apache communities tend to collaborate more
with projects hosted *inside* than hosted outside the ASF.
I see this increasing as the amount of tools (gump, forrest) grows and
the technical infrastructure glues projects more tightly.
As Sam puts it, cross-pollination between communities is the key for
massive growth and there is very little cross-pollination between the
CMS world and the ASF, until very recently (say 3/4 months).
Dave said this 18 months ago in a public discussion with Brian and, at
that time, Cocoon wasn't powerful enough to aspire to become part of a
serious CMS.
And I think we are still missing things (mostly componentized cocoon
webapps and flowmaps), but I'd like to use Forrest as a way to indicate
the direction.... and to gather consensus and inertia to the process.
Then, it will be a pleasure to prove Dave right and crush Userland
alltogether :)
--
Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: [provocative] crushing userland
Posted by Matt Sergeant <ma...@sergeant.org>.
On Fri, 15 Feb 2002, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> Matt Sergeant wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, 14 Feb 2002, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> >
> > > Dave said that Apache is the only real alternative to .NET... if only
> > > had a serious CMS.... ihihih, oh, he's so right on this :)
> >
> > He's so wrong it hurts. There are many very serious CMS's built on top of
> > Apache.
>
> But ASF project for that.
>
> That's the point.
So invite one in. Bricolage is looking particularly spectacular.
Alternatively maybe I should ask why? Does everything have to be an ASF
project? It's not like I'm talking about closed source efforts.
--
<!-- Matt -->
<:->Get a smart net</:->
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Re: [provocative] crushing userland
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Matt Sergeant wrote:
>
> On Thu, 14 Feb 2002, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
> > Dave said that Apache is the only real alternative to .NET... if only
> > had a serious CMS.... ihihih, oh, he's so right on this :)
>
> He's so wrong it hurts. There are many very serious CMS's built on top of
> Apache.
But ASF project for that.
That's the point.
--
Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
able to give birth to a dancing sX-Mozilla-Status: 0009org> Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: [provocative] crushing userland
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Matt Sergeant wrote:
>
> On Thu, 14 Feb 2002, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
> > Dave said that Apache is the only real alternative to .NET... if only
> > had a serious CMS.... ihihih, oh, he's so right on this :)
>
> He's so wrong it hurts. There are many very serious CMS's built on top of
> Apache.
But ASF project for that.
That's the point.
--
Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: [provocative] crushing userland
Posted by Matt Sergeant <ma...@sergeant.org>.
On Thu, 14 Feb 2002, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> Dave said that Apache is the only real alternative to .NET... if only
> had a serious CMS.... ihihih, oh, he's so right on this :)
He's so wrong it hurts. There are many very serious CMS's built on top of
Apache. Just because Dave isn't aware of them doesn't mean they don't
exist. There are also plenty of very successful pieces of weblog software
that work just fine on Apache. Movable Type anyone? People like Dave
should stop trying to be pundits when they're so bad at it.
--
<!-- Matt -->
<:->Get a smart net</:->
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