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Posted to dev@openoffice.apache.org by Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> on 2011/08/12 00:00:19 UTC
[email] openoffice.org email / user transition
I haven't seen any recent progress on planning the transition for openoffice.org email.
Sooner or later the openoffice.org mail server will be replaced. We have seen that the system is flakey and has been down for as much as one week in the last month.
(1) Mailing Lists. Maps have been proposed to transition the many mailing lists into fewer lists.
Do all of these openoffice.org mailing list addresses become aliases for apache.org mailing list addresses?
What about the subscribers to the mailing lists? Do we need to make them all resubscribe?
(2) openoffice.org registered users.
Should we have a way to maintain openoffice.org email aliases? Who do we do this for?
Do legalities prevent us from retaining the user database?
I have no idea what the best answers are. I do think that the plan does need to be communicated to places like users@openoffice.org.
Regards,
Dave
Re: [email] openoffice.org email / user transition
Posted by Jürgen Schmidt <jo...@googlemail.com>.
On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 2:46 PM, Shane Curcuru <as...@shanecurcuru.org> wrote:
> Note that the issue of monetary contributions and/or donations is a major
> one, especially since there are real policy differences between how
> OpenOffice.org used to work under Sun/Oracle and how the ASF does it's
> fundraising. In particular, the ASF has a fundraising@apache.org team and
> VP who work on fundraising for all projects; individual projects do not
> specifically solicit for funds (other than to link to the ASF Sponsorship
> page, etc.).
>
thanks for this information, i still have to learn a lot about the ASF.
The point is that the amount of donated money is not to disregarded and it
have allowed us to sponsor projects like the OpenOffice.org internship
(~27000 Euro) etc.
>
> I would urge the PPMC to start a separate thread dealing with the
> contributing.oo.o page, the relationship with SPI, and any other fundraising
> matters.
>
good point
>
> Get a description of any pre-existing ways that funds might have come into
> the project in the recent past, figure out a proposed plan for what the PPMC
> would like to do in the future, and then work with fundraising@ (a
> privately archived list) to move forward.
>
i will try to figure that out and it will come back with related
information...
Juergen
>
> - Shane
>
>
> On 8/12/2011 8:40 AM, Jürgen Schmidt wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 5:05 AM, drew<dr...@baseanswers.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, 2011-08-11 at 22:41 -0400, Rob Weir wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>> http://contributing.**openoffice.org/donate.html<http://contributing.openoffice.org/donate.html>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Ah right - so we should contact SPI and ask for them to stop taking
>>> donations for OpenOffice.org, yes?
>>>
>>>
>> mmh, i am not sure. Team OpenOffice.org still exists and is as far as i
>> know
>> still committed to support OpenOffice. We have to check how this can be
>> aligned with Apache because we probably don't want to loose this
>> opportunity
>> to get some money for the project. For example for conferences, marketing
>> etc.
>>
>> Juergen
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Drew
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
Re: [email] openoffice.org email / user transition
Posted by Shane Curcuru <as...@shanecurcuru.org>.
Note that the issue of monetary contributions and/or donations is a
major one, especially since there are real policy differences between
how OpenOffice.org used to work under Sun/Oracle and how the ASF does
it's fundraising. In particular, the ASF has a fundraising@apache.org
team and VP who work on fundraising for all projects; individual
projects do not specifically solicit for funds (other than to link to
the ASF Sponsorship page, etc.).
I would urge the PPMC to start a separate thread dealing with the
contributing.oo.o page, the relationship with SPI, and any other
fundraising matters.
Get a description of any pre-existing ways that funds might have come
into the project in the recent past, figure out a proposed plan for what
the PPMC would like to do in the future, and then work with fundraising@
(a privately archived list) to move forward.
- Shane
On 8/12/2011 8:40 AM, Jürgen Schmidt wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 5:05 AM, drew<dr...@baseanswers.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 2011-08-11 at 22:41 -0400, Rob Weir wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> http://contributing.openoffice.org/donate.html
>>>
>>
>> Ah right - so we should contact SPI and ask for them to stop taking
>> donations for OpenOffice.org, yes?
>>
>
> mmh, i am not sure. Team OpenOffice.org still exists and is as far as i know
> still committed to support OpenOffice. We have to check how this can be
> aligned with Apache because we probably don't want to loose this opportunity
> to get some money for the project. For example for conferences, marketing
> etc.
>
> Juergen
>
>
>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Drew
>>
>>
>
Re: [email] openoffice.org email / user transition
Posted by Jürgen Schmidt <jo...@googlemail.com>.
On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 5:05 AM, drew <dr...@baseanswers.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 2011-08-11 at 22:41 -0400, Rob Weir wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > http://contributing.openoffice.org/donate.html
> >
>
> Ah right - so we should contact SPI and ask for them to stop taking
> donations for OpenOffice.org, yes?
>
mmh, i am not sure. Team OpenOffice.org still exists and is as far as i know
still committed to support OpenOffice. We have to check how this can be
aligned with Apache because we probably don't want to loose this opportunity
to get some money for the project. For example for conferences, marketing
etc.
Juergen
>
> Thanks,
>
> Drew
>
>
Re: [email] openoffice.org email / user transition
Posted by drew <dr...@baseanswers.com>.
On Thu, 2011-08-11 at 22:41 -0400, Rob Weir wrote:
<snip>
> http://contributing.openoffice.org/donate.html
>
Ah right - so we should contact SPI and ask for them to stop taking
donations for OpenOffice.org, yes?
Thanks,
Drew
Re: [email] openoffice.org email / user transition
Posted by imacat <im...@mail.imacat.idv.tw>.
On 2011/08/12 10:41, Rob Weir said:
> On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 6:00 PM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> I haven't seen any recent progress on planning the transition for openoffice.org email.
>> Sooner or later the openoffice.org mail server will be replaced. We have seen that the system is flakey and has been down for as much as one week in the last month.
>> (1) Mailing Lists. Maps have been proposed to transition the many mailing lists into fewer lists.
>> Do all of these openoffice.org mailing list addresses become aliases for apache.org mailing list addresses?
> Please, no. OOo has an 100's of mailing lists, many of then with
> very few subscribers and only spam as traffic.
I agree. I do not think we should keep the lists. They have only
spam. Their subscribers are long gone. There is no use to keep them,
except for the archives. That's at least true for Traditional Chinese.
As for SPI donation, that would be another topic. We may need to
talk to SPI separately, anyway.
--
Best regards,
imacat ^_*' <im...@mail.imacat.idv.tw>
PGP Key http://www.imacat.idv.tw/me/pgpkey.asc
<<Woman's Voice>> News: http://www.wov.idv.tw/
Tavern IMACAT's http://www.imacat.idv.tw/
Woman in FOSS in Taiwan http://wofoss.blogspot.com/
OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org/
EducOO/OOo4Kids Taiwan http://www.educoo.tw/
Re: [email] openoffice.org email / user transition
Posted by Shane Curcuru <as...@shanecurcuru.org>.
On 8/12/2011 2:27 AM, Andrea Pescetti wrote:
> Rob Weir wrote:
>> On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 6:00 PM, Dave Fisher<da...@comcast.net>
>> wrote:
>>> (2) openoffice.org registered users.
>>> Should we have a way to maintain openoffice.org email aliases? Who do
>>> we do this for?
>
> Yes Dave, it is important to save those aliases. On the users side, the
> @openoffice.org e-mail addresses were a little but nice strategic
> element in community building. On the practical side, the
> @openoffice.org alias was/is used as the username in Bugzilla, in other
> sites belonging to the OpenOffice.org infrastructure (QATrack and at
> least one of Templates and Extensions); password recovery messages and
> Bugzilla notifications are sent to those aliases.
>
> Of course, this could be fixed by scripting, but it might be (but I
> couldn't check the real code) that some services rely on the identity
> "e-mail address for user USERNAME = USERNAME@openoffice.org"; and these
> would be broken.
Personally, I do not see how (policy-wise) that we'd continue to
maintain any non-official or non-committer email accounts at the
openoffice.org domain in the future. But this is a larger issue that
could use it's own thread. Apache provides basic email addresses (not
necessarily mail storage) only for committers, typically, so potentially
extending (or, keeping) email addresses to a much larger body of
non-committers requires real thought.
I understand the issue of maintaining logins to existing systems where
practical, but I would urge the team to consider focusing instead on how
any new (or migrated) Apache OOo bugtrackers, forums, etc. would work
instead of figuring out how to maintain every bit of old functionality
from past OOo sites.
>> The problem we're going to run into is that there are both official
>> openoffice.org email addresses, like webmaster@openoffice.org,
>> stories@openoffice.org, cdrom@openoffice.org. And then there are user
>> accounts at the same domain, given out rather freely.
>
> This remark by Rob Weir is absolutely true, unfortunately. And what's
> worse is that, as far as I know, there is no way to discriminate between
> "official" and "personal" addresses. Several years ago, the Italian N-L
> project created an alias scuole@openoffice.org (means "schools") for a
> -never properly launched- project about OpenOffice.org in Italian
> schools. And this was registered by merely "squatting" a free address
> since we knew no way to officially reserve an alias, and I suspect that
> the other "official" aliases you list could have been registered this
> way as well.
I would suggest (roughly), figuring out a migration for any important
system email addresses/accounts (hostmaster@, webmaster@, whatever) and
Apache committer's accounts, and then plan at some announced date to
turn off email features for all other oo.o email addresses. If
necessary, the PPMC could decide - if contacted by existing account
holders who have been active and productive - to re-enable selected
email accounts on a one-by-one decision basis.
In my Branding view, the PPMC will need to address and remove any of
these email or domain squatters. It is not acceptable to allow
non-community members to squat or make use of official ASF domain names
or services. But we do have time to discuss how to do this.
>
> Regards,
> Andrea.
- Shane
Re: [email] openoffice.org email / user transition
Posted by Andrea Pescetti <pe...@openoffice.org>.
Rob Weir wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 6:00 PM, Dave Fisher<da...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> (2) openoffice.org registered users.
>> Should we have a way to maintain openoffice.org email aliases? Who do we do this for?
Yes Dave, it is important to save those aliases. On the users side, the
@openoffice.org e-mail addresses were a little but nice strategic
element in community building. On the practical side, the
@openoffice.org alias was/is used as the username in Bugzilla, in other
sites belonging to the OpenOffice.org infrastructure (QATrack and at
least one of Templates and Extensions); password recovery messages and
Bugzilla notifications are sent to those aliases.
Of course, this could be fixed by scripting, but it might be (but I
couldn't check the real code) that some services rely on the identity
"e-mail address for user USERNAME = USERNAME@openoffice.org"; and these
would be broken.
> The problem we're going to run into is that there are both official
> openoffice.org email addresses, like webmaster@openoffice.org,
> stories@openoffice.org, cdrom@openoffice.org. And then there are user
> accounts at the same domain, given out rather freely.
This remark by Rob Weir is absolutely true, unfortunately. And what's
worse is that, as far as I know, there is no way to discriminate between
"official" and "personal" addresses. Several years ago, the Italian N-L
project created an alias scuole@openoffice.org (means "schools") for a
-never properly launched- project about OpenOffice.org in Italian
schools. And this was registered by merely "squatting" a free address
since we knew no way to officially reserve an alias, and I suspect that
the other "official" aliases you list could have been registered this
way as well.
Regards,
Andrea.
Re: [email] openoffice.org email / user transition
Posted by Jürgen Schmidt <jo...@googlemail.com>.
On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 4:41 AM, Rob Weir <ap...@robweir.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 6:00 PM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
> > I haven't seen any recent progress on planning the transition for
> openoffice.org email.
> >
> > Sooner or later the openoffice.org mail server will be replaced. We have
> seen that the system is flakey and has been down for as much as one week in
> the last month.
> >
> > (1) Mailing Lists. Maps have been proposed to transition the many mailing
> lists into fewer lists.
> >
> > Do all of these openoffice.org mailing list addresses become aliases for
> apache.org mailing list addresses?
> >
>
> Please, no. OOo has an 100's of mailing lists, many of then with
> very few subscribers and only spam as traffic.
>
> For example, the "Afar Language" project has 5 separate mailings list,
> but only one across them. That is the commit message for the website:
>
> http://openoffice.org/projects/aa/lists
>
> Other projects get traffic, but it is entirely spam:
>
> http://openoffice.org/projects/about/lists/issues/archive
>
>
> So I think we end up, in the end, with a much much smaller number of
> lists. Avoid the fragmentation and encourage collaboration. If we
> have more than a dozen lists in the end I will be very disappointed.
>
i agree we don't need all the existing mailing lists.
Maybe we should send out a message to all lists that they will go out of
maintenance in the near future and that people should join the Apache
project. For now the ooo-dev list.
>
> > What about the subscribers to the mailing lists? Do we need to make them
> all resubscribe?
> >
>
> Perhaps we should decide that based on the existing OOo privacy policy.
>
> > (2) openoffice.org registered users.
> >
> > Should we have a way to maintain openoffice.org email aliases? Who do we
> do this for?
> >
>
> The problem we're going to run into is that there are both official
> openoffice.org email addresses, like webmaster@openoffice.org,
> stories@openoffice.org, cdrom@openoffice.org. And then there are user
> accounts at the same domain, given out rather freely.
>
> If we are able to, under the site's existing privacy, to audit the
> user accounts, we should do so, to ensure that all of the "official"
> ones revert to the PPMC. This would include ones that were intended
> to be official, as well as ones that may have been accidentally or
> even surreptitiously created, with names that imply they represent the
> project, e.g., sales@openoffice.org, either in English or in other
> languages. I'm not saying such accounts exist, but it is prudent to
> check.
>
it's a difficult question to answer because from a community point of view
we would probably like to keep them all if possible. I would at least
request some kind of sign of life from any existing user account that she/he
want to keep this alias.
I have no real opinion how important a xy@openoffice.org email address is
for some users, i hope not really important. But who knows?
Juergen
>
> One might fairly point out that at Apache, we also use the same email
> domain for official and personal email addresses. This is true. But
> apache.org addresses are only given to committers, who have submitted
> an iCLA, giving their real name, address, etc. So we have recourses
> if such accounts are abused.
>
> From the branding perspective, I would also be concerned if we had
> large numbers of people, not associated with the project, using email
> addresses that imply affiliation.
>
> Am I trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist yet? A fair
> question. I'll give an example of the things that we need to watch
> out for:
>
> http://contributing.openoffice.org/donate.html
>
> We need to tread very carefully. There are things here that potential
> could threaten Apache's non-profit status. I think that we should be
> vetting every web page, every email address, every source file, every
> online service that we put out as representing this Apache project.
>
> Also, whatever we do with the forwarding addresses, I'd recommend that
> existing users of such addresses switch to something else for their
> Apache forwarding addresses. Otherwise there is a real risk that
> during the migration that you would miss list traffic. This is
> especially important for anyone involved in the migration of the email
> forwarding service itself.
>
> > Do legalities prevent us from retaining the user database?
> >
> > I have no idea what the best answers are. I do think that the plan does
> need to be communicated to places like users@openoffice.org.
> >
>
> Yes.
>
> > Regards,
> > Dave
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Re: [email] openoffice.org email / user transition
Posted by Rob Weir <ap...@robweir.com>.
On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 6:00 PM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
> I haven't seen any recent progress on planning the transition for openoffice.org email.
>
> Sooner or later the openoffice.org mail server will be replaced. We have seen that the system is flakey and has been down for as much as one week in the last month.
>
> (1) Mailing Lists. Maps have been proposed to transition the many mailing lists into fewer lists.
>
> Do all of these openoffice.org mailing list addresses become aliases for apache.org mailing list addresses?
>
Please, no. OOo has an 100's of mailing lists, many of then with
very few subscribers and only spam as traffic.
For example, the "Afar Language" project has 5 separate mailings list,
but only one across them. That is the commit message for the website:
http://openoffice.org/projects/aa/lists
Other projects get traffic, but it is entirely spam:
http://openoffice.org/projects/about/lists/issues/archive
So I think we end up, in the end, with a much much smaller number of
lists. Avoid the fragmentation and encourage collaboration. If we
have more than a dozen lists in the end I will be very disappointed.
> What about the subscribers to the mailing lists? Do we need to make them all resubscribe?
>
Perhaps we should decide that based on the existing OOo privacy policy.
> (2) openoffice.org registered users.
>
> Should we have a way to maintain openoffice.org email aliases? Who do we do this for?
>
The problem we're going to run into is that there are both official
openoffice.org email addresses, like webmaster@openoffice.org,
stories@openoffice.org, cdrom@openoffice.org. And then there are user
accounts at the same domain, given out rather freely.
If we are able to, under the site's existing privacy, to audit the
user accounts, we should do so, to ensure that all of the "official"
ones revert to the PPMC. This would include ones that were intended
to be official, as well as ones that may have been accidentally or
even surreptitiously created, with names that imply they represent the
project, e.g., sales@openoffice.org, either in English or in other
languages. I'm not saying such accounts exist, but it is prudent to
check.
One might fairly point out that at Apache, we also use the same email
domain for official and personal email addresses. This is true. But
apache.org addresses are only given to committers, who have submitted
an iCLA, giving their real name, address, etc. So we have recourses
if such accounts are abused.
>From the branding perspective, I would also be concerned if we had
large numbers of people, not associated with the project, using email
addresses that imply affiliation.
Am I trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist yet? A fair
question. I'll give an example of the things that we need to watch
out for:
http://contributing.openoffice.org/donate.html
We need to tread very carefully. There are things here that potential
could threaten Apache's non-profit status. I think that we should be
vetting every web page, every email address, every source file, every
online service that we put out as representing this Apache project.
Also, whatever we do with the forwarding addresses, I'd recommend that
existing users of such addresses switch to something else for their
Apache forwarding addresses. Otherwise there is a real risk that
during the migration that you would miss list traffic. This is
especially important for anyone involved in the migration of the email
forwarding service itself.
> Do legalities prevent us from retaining the user database?
>
> I have no idea what the best answers are. I do think that the plan does need to be communicated to places like users@openoffice.org.
>
Yes.
> Regards,
> Dave
>
>
>
>