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Posted to dev@openoffice.apache.org by Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org> on 2012/12/01 18:01:31 UTC
Re: L10n tools is no longer needed.
On 28/11/2012 janI wrote:
> I have had a look, and the tool does with a few exceptions, what genLang
> was supposed to do. There are no reason to make parallel developments so
> the l10n development has been stopped.
Reading the description it seems it can be used as a basis to improve
the Apache OpenOffice localization process too. As others already
pointed out in this discussion, there are some good arguments for making
a stand-alone project out of this tool, and this seems a reasonable
solution.
> Would it not be a wonderful world, if openSource was truly open and we
> could share ... why are we
> as volunteers not trying harder to reach that goal.
How much harder? I think it's hard to try harder. Three recent examples,
all coming from the official Apache blog or consensus on mailing lists:
- our FOSDEM offer to share a devroom:
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-dev/201210.mbox/%3C50904023.6050502@apache.org%3E
- my ApacheCon presentation
http://s.apache.org/openoffice-aceu2012-day-1
- code contributions Apache OpenOffice is making to LibreOffice
https://blogs.apache.org/OOo/entry/good_news_libreoffice_is_integrating
So the Apache OpenOffice side did show willingness to cooperate. But
cooperation needs willingness on both sides.
> If I were PMC I would have one high priority on my list
I quite disagree on two points here:
1) You seem to believe Apache OpenOffice is not seeing this as high
priority, while I believe Apache OpenOffice is really the only active
party in this discussion.
2) You imply that only PMC members can make a change. This is not true.
Not being a committer may prevent a contributor from getting things
done, but not being a PMC member does not prevent anyone from being
heard or influential.
Regards,
Andrea.
Re: L10n tools is no longer needed.
Posted by Jürgen Schmidt <jo...@gmail.com>.
On 12/2/12 7:12 PM, janI wrote:
> thanks rob for clarifying it.
>
> It just shows how wrong my thought were, but I have been searching to find
> documentation on the split, reasons why, person conflicts etc...that seems
> buried quite deep (maybe for good reasons), and the IBM approach to LO also
> seems quite hard to find, so please understand why I had the impression
> that we are more talking than doing.
>
> Being new, it is really hard to understand, and asking people from LO, just
> gives the answer that they want to be independent of companies.
I believe it is a valid goal to be independent and it is the same goal
for the ASF. When you take a closer look on LO my impression is that
major parts of the development work is done by Suse and RedHat. If Suse
and or RedHat stop their development work it will be a major problem for
LO. For AOO it is of course IBM at the moment that did a lot of
development work but not only. The goal in both projects is to increase
the developer community and bring as much as possible new developers
from different companies or volunteers in the project.
It's a shame that some people tried to draw a wrong picture about IBM
and IBM's interest in this project. Yes IBM had taken the code of OO in
the past and built Symphony on top if it. But it's also true that IBM
made the experience that it is not easy and counterproductive in the
long term to maintain a shadow development stream of more or less the
same code base and merge bigger changes from time to time or rebase the
code. No IBM decided to stop this fork (Symphony) and work together with
the community on one public code base and one office version. An AOO IBM
edition if we will package one at all will be a pure AOO + some IBM
specific extension to integrate in IBM products, nothing more. If I
would not believe in IBM's interest I wouldn't have joined IBM.
I believe that such huge open source projects can only be successful if
you have a diverse community of volunteers as well as paid full-time
developers. And the more developers you have the better it is to move
the project forward. Show me one successful huge open source project
that is driven by part time developers only.
I would really like to see that we find a way to collaborate on the
source code level with the developers of LO to simply generate the best
outcome/result/product for our users. We have enough work to do in
different areas and it make no sense to compete against each other where
we are using more or less the same code base. We could achieve much more
when we would work together. The ASF owns the brand OpenOffice which is
still very powerful and the Apache license has proven that it works for
open source projects and allow to build a working eco system on top of it.
It is not really the open source vision in that I believe when you take
the code only in one direction.
This is my personal view only and I am still hoping for our users that
we can solve this issue in the future. We could do much more together!
Juergen
>
> I just want to do my job, and make it available to as many as possible...so
> now I will continue with a little AOO project that I have defined.
>
> Jan.
>
>
>
> On 2 December 2012 16:03, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 1:02 PM, janI <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
>>> On 1 December 2012 18:01, Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 28/11/2012 janI wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I have had a look, and the tool does with a few exceptions, what
>> genLang
>>>>> was supposed to do. There are no reason to make parallel developments
>> so
>>>>> the l10n development has been stopped.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Reading the description it seems it can be used as a basis to improve
>> the
>>>> Apache OpenOffice localization process too. As others already pointed
>> out
>>>> in this discussion, there are some good arguments for making a
>> stand-alone
>>>> project out of this tool, and this seems a reasonable solution.
>>>>
>>>> Would it not be a wonderful world, if openSource was truly open and we
>>>>> could share ... why are we
>>>>>
>>>>> as volunteers not trying harder to reach that goal.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> How much harder? I think it's hard to try harder. Three recent examples,
>>>> all coming from the official Apache blog or consensus on mailing lists:
>>>>
>>>> - our FOSDEM offer to share a devroom:
>>>> http://mail-archives.apache.**org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-**
>>>> dev/201210.mbox/%3C50904023.**6050502@apache.org%3E<
>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-dev/201210.mbox/%3C50904023.6050502@apache.org%3E
>>>
>>>>
>>>> - my ApacheCon presentation
>>>> http://s.apache.org/**openoffice-aceu2012-day-1<
>> http://s.apache.org/openoffice-aceu2012-day-1>
>>>>
>>>> - code contributions Apache OpenOffice is making to LibreOffice
>>>> https://blogs.apache.org/OOo/**entry/good_news_libreoffice_**
>>>> is_integrating<
>> https://blogs.apache.org/OOo/entry/good_news_libreoffice_is_integrating>
>>>>
>>>> So the Apache OpenOffice side did show willingness to cooperate. But
>>>> cooperation needs willingness on both sides.
>>>
>>>
>>> When you say FOSDEM...did anyone actually talk with LO, or did we just
>>> offer it to FOSDEM ?
>>>
>>> Your presentation was very nice and open but it is far to easy, to sit
>> down
>>> and say "we have said we are willing to cooperate", actually you can hear
>>> the same kind of voices from LO.
>>>
>>> About contributions, I must have written something wrong...
>>> - to me it is a problem when we take/deliver code from each other, that
>> is
>>> not sharing, that is copying, and do not help with bug fixes,
>>> translatations etc.. But I still think that developers developing for
>> both
>>> LO and AOO are one a right track.
>>> - We cannot take anything from LO, due to the license problems. E.g. the
>>> l10ntools. If we could agree on a common codebase we could really share.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If I were PMC I would have one high priority on my list
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I quite disagree on two points here:
>>>>
>>>> 1) You seem to believe Apache OpenOffice is not seeing this as high
>>>> priority, while I believe Apache OpenOffice is really the only active
>> party
>>>> in this discussion.
>>>>
>>> you might be right, but to me it seems we are discussing more with
>>> ourselves than with LO. I might be completely wrong here, but until now I
>>> have not heard about any contact directly with LO about cooperation, code
>>> base etc.
>>>
>>> There might be some historical perspectives I do not know about at least
>> it
>>> was implied to me.
>>>
>>>
>>>> 2) You imply that only PMC members can make a change. This is not true.
>>>> Not being a committer may prevent a contributor from getting things
>> done,
>>>> but not being a PMC member does not prevent anyone from being heard or
>>>> influential.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I agree with you on that...my little contribution to the discussion has
>> for
>>> sure got response and not only here.
>>>
>>> I try to move things on my scale...but let me put my PMC "imply" more
>>> directly...does any of the key persons (to me PMC) have a contact with
>> LO,
>>> and if not has it been tried to make contact directly ? or are we just
>>> assuming LO do not want to cooperate, because they do not react.
>>>
>>
>> Yes. I can say for example that we (IBM) have contacted the company
>> that employees two TDF Directors, and in discussions that included
>> their LibreOffice lead, offered to discuss ways of collaborating on
>> code between LO and AOO. Specifically we discussed ways of
>> collaborating on interoperability and accessibility. At first they
>> said this could not be discussed, for political reasons, until AOO
>> graduated. I then pushed for us to graduate the very next day. But
>> now we're told that this collaboration is not possible until they have
>> completed rebasing their code on AOO. We're been pushing these
>> discussions for over a year now, but have met with nothing but excuses
>> and delay.
>>
>> -Rob
>>
>>> Please see my mail as a positive word to help move OpenOffice (with A or
>> L)
>>> in a direction beneficial for our users. Of course I am irritated over
>>> having wasted a little month work because I did not follow LO dev list,
>> but
>>> that is my problem and already forgotten.
>>>
>>> If this discussion is seen as wrongly placed on the dev list, I will
>> gladly
>>> take it somewhere directly.
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>> Andrea.
>>>>
>>
>
Re: L10n tools is no longer needed.
Posted by janI <ja...@apache.org>.
thanks rob for clarifying it.
It just shows how wrong my thought were, but I have been searching to find
documentation on the split, reasons why, person conflicts etc...that seems
buried quite deep (maybe for good reasons), and the IBM approach to LO also
seems quite hard to find, so please understand why I had the impression
that we are more talking than doing.
Being new, it is really hard to understand, and asking people from LO, just
gives the answer that they want to be independent of companies.
I just want to do my job, and make it available to as many as possible...so
now I will continue with a little AOO project that I have defined.
Jan.
On 2 December 2012 16:03, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 1:02 PM, janI <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
> > On 1 December 2012 18:01, Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On 28/11/2012 janI wrote:
> >>
> >>> I have had a look, and the tool does with a few exceptions, what
> genLang
> >>> was supposed to do. There are no reason to make parallel developments
> so
> >>> the l10n development has been stopped.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Reading the description it seems it can be used as a basis to improve
> the
> >> Apache OpenOffice localization process too. As others already pointed
> out
> >> in this discussion, there are some good arguments for making a
> stand-alone
> >> project out of this tool, and this seems a reasonable solution.
> >>
> >> Would it not be a wonderful world, if openSource was truly open and we
> >>> could share ... why are we
> >>>
> >>> as volunteers not trying harder to reach that goal.
> >>>
> >>
> >> How much harder? I think it's hard to try harder. Three recent examples,
> >> all coming from the official Apache blog or consensus on mailing lists:
> >>
> >> - our FOSDEM offer to share a devroom:
> >> http://mail-archives.apache.**org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-**
> >> dev/201210.mbox/%3C50904023.**6050502@apache.org%3E<
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-dev/201210.mbox/%3C50904023.6050502@apache.org%3E
> >
> >>
> >> - my ApacheCon presentation
> >> http://s.apache.org/**openoffice-aceu2012-day-1<
> http://s.apache.org/openoffice-aceu2012-day-1>
> >>
> >> - code contributions Apache OpenOffice is making to LibreOffice
> >> https://blogs.apache.org/OOo/**entry/good_news_libreoffice_**
> >> is_integrating<
> https://blogs.apache.org/OOo/entry/good_news_libreoffice_is_integrating>
> >>
> >> So the Apache OpenOffice side did show willingness to cooperate. But
> >> cooperation needs willingness on both sides.
> >
> >
> > When you say FOSDEM...did anyone actually talk with LO, or did we just
> > offer it to FOSDEM ?
> >
> > Your presentation was very nice and open but it is far to easy, to sit
> down
> > and say "we have said we are willing to cooperate", actually you can hear
> > the same kind of voices from LO.
> >
> > About contributions, I must have written something wrong...
> > - to me it is a problem when we take/deliver code from each other, that
> is
> > not sharing, that is copying, and do not help with bug fixes,
> > translatations etc.. But I still think that developers developing for
> both
> > LO and AOO are one a right track.
> > - We cannot take anything from LO, due to the license problems. E.g. the
> > l10ntools. If we could agree on a common codebase we could really share.
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> If I were PMC I would have one high priority on my list
> >>>
> >>
> >> I quite disagree on two points here:
> >>
> >> 1) You seem to believe Apache OpenOffice is not seeing this as high
> >> priority, while I believe Apache OpenOffice is really the only active
> party
> >> in this discussion.
> >>
> > you might be right, but to me it seems we are discussing more with
> > ourselves than with LO. I might be completely wrong here, but until now I
> > have not heard about any contact directly with LO about cooperation, code
> > base etc.
> >
> > There might be some historical perspectives I do not know about at least
> it
> > was implied to me.
> >
> >
> >> 2) You imply that only PMC members can make a change. This is not true.
> >> Not being a committer may prevent a contributor from getting things
> done,
> >> but not being a PMC member does not prevent anyone from being heard or
> >> influential.
> >>
> >
> > I agree with you on that...my little contribution to the discussion has
> for
> > sure got response and not only here.
> >
> > I try to move things on my scale...but let me put my PMC "imply" more
> > directly...does any of the key persons (to me PMC) have a contact with
> LO,
> > and if not has it been tried to make contact directly ? or are we just
> > assuming LO do not want to cooperate, because they do not react.
> >
>
> Yes. I can say for example that we (IBM) have contacted the company
> that employees two TDF Directors, and in discussions that included
> their LibreOffice lead, offered to discuss ways of collaborating on
> code between LO and AOO. Specifically we discussed ways of
> collaborating on interoperability and accessibility. At first they
> said this could not be discussed, for political reasons, until AOO
> graduated. I then pushed for us to graduate the very next day. But
> now we're told that this collaboration is not possible until they have
> completed rebasing their code on AOO. We're been pushing these
> discussions for over a year now, but have met with nothing but excuses
> and delay.
>
> -Rob
>
> > Please see my mail as a positive word to help move OpenOffice (with A or
> L)
> > in a direction beneficial for our users. Of course I am irritated over
> > having wasted a little month work because I did not follow LO dev list,
> but
> > that is my problem and already forgotten.
> >
> > If this discussion is seen as wrongly placed on the dev list, I will
> gladly
> > take it somewhere directly.
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >> Andrea.
> >>
>
Re: L10n tools is no longer needed.
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 1:02 PM, janI <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 1 December 2012 18:01, Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> On 28/11/2012 janI wrote:
>>
>>> I have had a look, and the tool does with a few exceptions, what genLang
>>> was supposed to do. There are no reason to make parallel developments so
>>> the l10n development has been stopped.
>>>
>>
>> Reading the description it seems it can be used as a basis to improve the
>> Apache OpenOffice localization process too. As others already pointed out
>> in this discussion, there are some good arguments for making a stand-alone
>> project out of this tool, and this seems a reasonable solution.
>>
>> Would it not be a wonderful world, if openSource was truly open and we
>>> could share ... why are we
>>>
>>> as volunteers not trying harder to reach that goal.
>>>
>>
>> How much harder? I think it's hard to try harder. Three recent examples,
>> all coming from the official Apache blog or consensus on mailing lists:
>>
>> - our FOSDEM offer to share a devroom:
>> http://mail-archives.apache.**org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-**
>> dev/201210.mbox/%3C50904023.**6050502@apache.org%3E<http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-dev/201210.mbox/%3C50904023.6050502@apache.org%3E>
>>
>> - my ApacheCon presentation
>> http://s.apache.org/**openoffice-aceu2012-day-1<http://s.apache.org/openoffice-aceu2012-day-1>
>>
>> - code contributions Apache OpenOffice is making to LibreOffice
>> https://blogs.apache.org/OOo/**entry/good_news_libreoffice_**
>> is_integrating<https://blogs.apache.org/OOo/entry/good_news_libreoffice_is_integrating>
>>
>> So the Apache OpenOffice side did show willingness to cooperate. But
>> cooperation needs willingness on both sides.
>
>
> When you say FOSDEM...did anyone actually talk with LO, or did we just
> offer it to FOSDEM ?
>
> Your presentation was very nice and open but it is far to easy, to sit down
> and say "we have said we are willing to cooperate", actually you can hear
> the same kind of voices from LO.
>
> About contributions, I must have written something wrong...
> - to me it is a problem when we take/deliver code from each other, that is
> not sharing, that is copying, and do not help with bug fixes,
> translatations etc.. But I still think that developers developing for both
> LO and AOO are one a right track.
> - We cannot take anything from LO, due to the license problems. E.g. the
> l10ntools. If we could agree on a common codebase we could really share.
>
>>
>>
>> If I were PMC I would have one high priority on my list
>>>
>>
>> I quite disagree on two points here:
>>
>> 1) You seem to believe Apache OpenOffice is not seeing this as high
>> priority, while I believe Apache OpenOffice is really the only active party
>> in this discussion.
>>
> you might be right, but to me it seems we are discussing more with
> ourselves than with LO. I might be completely wrong here, but until now I
> have not heard about any contact directly with LO about cooperation, code
> base etc.
>
> There might be some historical perspectives I do not know about at least it
> was implied to me.
>
>
>> 2) You imply that only PMC members can make a change. This is not true.
>> Not being a committer may prevent a contributor from getting things done,
>> but not being a PMC member does not prevent anyone from being heard or
>> influential.
>>
>
> I agree with you on that...my little contribution to the discussion has for
> sure got response and not only here.
>
> I try to move things on my scale...but let me put my PMC "imply" more
> directly...does any of the key persons (to me PMC) have a contact with LO,
> and if not has it been tried to make contact directly ? or are we just
> assuming LO do not want to cooperate, because they do not react.
>
Yes. I can say for example that we (IBM) have contacted the company
that employees two TDF Directors, and in discussions that included
their LibreOffice lead, offered to discuss ways of collaborating on
code between LO and AOO. Specifically we discussed ways of
collaborating on interoperability and accessibility. At first they
said this could not be discussed, for political reasons, until AOO
graduated. I then pushed for us to graduate the very next day. But
now we're told that this collaboration is not possible until they have
completed rebasing their code on AOO. We're been pushing these
discussions for over a year now, but have met with nothing but excuses
and delay.
-Rob
> Please see my mail as a positive word to help move OpenOffice (with A or L)
> in a direction beneficial for our users. Of course I am irritated over
> having wasted a little month work because I did not follow LO dev list, but
> that is my problem and already forgotten.
>
> If this discussion is seen as wrongly placed on the dev list, I will gladly
> take it somewhere directly.
>
>
> Regards,
>> Andrea.
>>
Re: L10n tools is no longer needed.
Posted by janI <ja...@apache.org>.
On 1 December 2012 18:01, Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 28/11/2012 janI wrote:
>
>> I have had a look, and the tool does with a few exceptions, what genLang
>> was supposed to do. There are no reason to make parallel developments so
>> the l10n development has been stopped.
>>
>
> Reading the description it seems it can be used as a basis to improve the
> Apache OpenOffice localization process too. As others already pointed out
> in this discussion, there are some good arguments for making a stand-alone
> project out of this tool, and this seems a reasonable solution.
>
> Would it not be a wonderful world, if openSource was truly open and we
>> could share ... why are we
>>
>> as volunteers not trying harder to reach that goal.
>>
>
> How much harder? I think it's hard to try harder. Three recent examples,
> all coming from the official Apache blog or consensus on mailing lists:
>
> - our FOSDEM offer to share a devroom:
> http://mail-archives.apache.**org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-**
> dev/201210.mbox/%3C50904023.**6050502@apache.org%3E<http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-dev/201210.mbox/%3C50904023.6050502@apache.org%3E>
>
> - my ApacheCon presentation
> http://s.apache.org/**openoffice-aceu2012-day-1<http://s.apache.org/openoffice-aceu2012-day-1>
>
> - code contributions Apache OpenOffice is making to LibreOffice
> https://blogs.apache.org/OOo/**entry/good_news_libreoffice_**
> is_integrating<https://blogs.apache.org/OOo/entry/good_news_libreoffice_is_integrating>
>
> So the Apache OpenOffice side did show willingness to cooperate. But
> cooperation needs willingness on both sides.
When you say FOSDEM...did anyone actually talk with LO, or did we just
offer it to FOSDEM ?
Your presentation was very nice and open but it is far to easy, to sit down
and say "we have said we are willing to cooperate", actually you can hear
the same kind of voices from LO.
About contributions, I must have written something wrong...
- to me it is a problem when we take/deliver code from each other, that is
not sharing, that is copying, and do not help with bug fixes,
translatations etc.. But I still think that developers developing for both
LO and AOO are one a right track.
- We cannot take anything from LO, due to the license problems. E.g. the
l10ntools. If we could agree on a common codebase we could really share.
>
>
> If I were PMC I would have one high priority on my list
>>
>
> I quite disagree on two points here:
>
> 1) You seem to believe Apache OpenOffice is not seeing this as high
> priority, while I believe Apache OpenOffice is really the only active party
> in this discussion.
>
you might be right, but to me it seems we are discussing more with
ourselves than with LO. I might be completely wrong here, but until now I
have not heard about any contact directly with LO about cooperation, code
base etc.
There might be some historical perspectives I do not know about at least it
was implied to me.
> 2) You imply that only PMC members can make a change. This is not true.
> Not being a committer may prevent a contributor from getting things done,
> but not being a PMC member does not prevent anyone from being heard or
> influential.
>
I agree with you on that...my little contribution to the discussion has for
sure got response and not only here.
I try to move things on my scale...but let me put my PMC "imply" more
directly...does any of the key persons (to me PMC) have a contact with LO,
and if not has it been tried to make contact directly ? or are we just
assuming LO do not want to cooperate, because they do not react.
Please see my mail as a positive word to help move OpenOffice (with A or L)
in a direction beneficial for our users. Of course I am irritated over
having wasted a little month work because I did not follow LO dev list, but
that is my problem and already forgotten.
If this discussion is seen as wrongly placed on the dev list, I will gladly
take it somewhere directly.
Regards,
> Andrea.
>