user list

[Cliff Schmidt <cl...@gmail.com>]

A very brief thread on the PPMC private list was started to request a
user list from infrastructure.  Since I think this warrants a
discussion, I'm moving the topic to the open dev list.

I would suggest we hold off on adding a user list.  I'd direct all
user questions to the dev list at this stage.  The Incubator used to
set up dev and user lists for all incubating projects, but then many
people noted that this tended to partition the two groups right at the
time when you could really use some interaction between them.  The dev
list should always be the place that users report bugs or request
features or discuss interop issues.  The user list is just there to
help users understand how to use the product.  At an early stage of
development, most of the user comments and questions are directly
related to the ongoing development of the product.

For this reason, incubating projects these days are generally
encouraged to keep both user and devs together on one list until the
user-oriented traffic grows to a point that it becomes too noisy and
not useful for all developers to be hearing.

Cliff

Re: user list

[Bhupendra Bhardwaj <bh...@gmail.com>]

Hi all,

I also agree with having a seperate list for users. This is also based on my
experience with other projects I have worked with. The dev and users lists
were different and a seperate users list makes it clean from users point of
view also.

And if there are only few users then also it makes sense to have a seperate
list. If we have that now we can continue with that instead of creating a
list later and asking all subscribed users to subscribe to a different list
later.
And aren't we expecting no of users to grow? we are.

Thanks
Bhupendra


On 11/23/06, Marnie McCormack <ma...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> All,
>
> I can see the value in a user list now for the noise advoidance value.
>
> I routinely have more than 50 new messages on the dev list when I login to
> my email, and even using googlemail with threading (which not all our
> users
> will be using) it's quite hard to see the wood for the trees :-)
>
> Marnie
>
>
> On 11/23/06, Rajith Attapattu <ra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > If we have a substantial user base already then I think there is value
> in
> > going for a user list.
> > I agree and understand the point made by Cliff and Paul about the
> > community
> > being fragmented.
> >
> > But I also see agree with roberts comments. I think unlike other
> incubator
> > projects we do have some users already.
> > The user may find it a bit intimidating/confusing when they subscribe to
> > the
> > dev list.
> >
> > If users are already using Qpid in production then they may have
> > significant
> > amount of questions.
> > I as a dev and the majority of user swould like to see those questions
> on
> > a
> > seperate list so that we don't create too much distraction for either
> > party.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Rajith
> >
> > On 11/22/06, Robert Greig <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > On 22/11/06, Cliff Schmidt <cl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > For this reason, incubating projects these days are generally
> > > > encouraged to keep both user and devs together on one list until the
> > > > user-oriented traffic grows to a point that it becomes too noisy and
> > > > not useful for all developers to be hearing.
> > >
> > > I'd turn that round slightly and ask if it's reasonable to make our
> > > users wade through all sorts of (to them) noise on the dev list?
> > >
> > > I certainly think all developers should subscribe to the user list,
> > > and interact with the users.
> > >
> > > I know from helping our internal users of Qpid that many users are
> > > looking for help migrating from other products and are working to
> > > deadlines. They want to be able to get help and advice quickly and I
> > > think asking them to subscribe to a dev list would put them off. It
> > > might also confuse them as we discuss features or concepts only
> > > applicable to in-development versions as opposed to releases.
> > >
> > > RG
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Re: user list

[Marnie McCormack <ma...@googlemail.com>]

All,

I can see the value in a user list now for the noise advoidance value.

I routinely have more than 50 new messages on the dev list when I login to
my email, and even using googlemail with threading (which not all our users
will be using) it's quite hard to see the wood for the trees :-)

Marnie


On 11/23/06, Rajith Attapattu <ra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> If we have a substantial user base already then I think there is value in
> going for a user list.
> I agree and understand the point made by Cliff and Paul about the
> community
> being fragmented.
>
> But I also see agree with roberts comments. I think unlike other incubator
> projects we do have some users already.
> The user may find it a bit intimidating/confusing when they subscribe to
> the
> dev list.
>
> If users are already using Qpid in production then they may have
> significant
> amount of questions.
> I as a dev and the majority of user swould like to see those questions on
> a
> seperate list so that we don't create too much distraction for either
> party.
>
> Regards,
>
> Rajith
>
> On 11/22/06, Robert Greig <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On 22/11/06, Cliff Schmidt <cl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > For this reason, incubating projects these days are generally
> > > encouraged to keep both user and devs together on one list until the
> > > user-oriented traffic grows to a point that it becomes too noisy and
> > > not useful for all developers to be hearing.
> >
> > I'd turn that round slightly and ask if it's reasonable to make our
> > users wade through all sorts of (to them) noise on the dev list?
> >
> > I certainly think all developers should subscribe to the user list,
> > and interact with the users.
> >
> > I know from helping our internal users of Qpid that many users are
> > looking for help migrating from other products and are working to
> > deadlines. They want to be able to get help and advice quickly and I
> > think asking them to subscribe to a dev list would put them off. It
> > might also confuse them as we discuss features or concepts only
> > applicable to in-development versions as opposed to releases.
> >
> > RG
> >
>
>

Re: user list

[Rajith Attapattu <ra...@gmail.com>]

If we have a substantial user base already then I think there is value in
going for a user list.
I agree and understand the point made by Cliff and Paul about the community
being fragmented.

But I also see agree with roberts comments. I think unlike other incubator
projects we do have some users already.
The user may find it a bit intimidating/confusing when they subscribe to the
dev list.

If users are already using Qpid in production then they may have significant
amount of questions.
I as a dev and the majority of user swould like to see those questions on a
seperate list so that we don't create too much distraction for either party.

Regards,

Rajith

On 11/22/06, Robert Greig <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 22/11/06, Cliff Schmidt <cl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > For this reason, incubating projects these days are generally
> > encouraged to keep both user and devs together on one list until the
> > user-oriented traffic grows to a point that it becomes too noisy and
> > not useful for all developers to be hearing.
>
> I'd turn that round slightly and ask if it's reasonable to make our
> users wade through all sorts of (to them) noise on the dev list?
>
> I certainly think all developers should subscribe to the user list,
> and interact with the users.
>
> I know from helping our internal users of Qpid that many users are
> looking for help migrating from other products and are working to
> deadlines. They want to be able to get help and advice quickly and I
> think asking them to subscribe to a dev list would put them off. It
> might also confuse them as we discuss features or concepts only
> applicable to in-development versions as opposed to releases.
>
> RG
>

Re: user list

[Robert Greig <ro...@gmail.com>]

On 22/11/06, Cliff Schmidt <cl...@gmail.com> wrote:

> For this reason, incubating projects these days are generally
> encouraged to keep both user and devs together on one list until the
> user-oriented traffic grows to a point that it becomes too noisy and
> not useful for all developers to be hearing.

I'd turn that round slightly and ask if it's reasonable to make our
users wade through all sorts of (to them) noise on the dev list?

I certainly think all developers should subscribe to the user list,
and interact with the users.

I know from helping our internal users of Qpid that many users are
looking for help migrating from other products and are working to
deadlines. They want to be able to get help and advice quickly and I
think asking them to subscribe to a dev list would put them off. It
might also confuse them as we discuss features or concepts only
applicable to in-development versions as opposed to releases.

RG

Re: user list

[John O'Hara <jo...@gmail.com>]

Yes, let users have a quieter life than ours.

On 30/11/06, John O'Hara <jo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> If I had to deal with this list in Notes I'd go barmy.
>
> On 30/11/06, Marnie McCormack <marnie.mccormack@googlemail.com > wrote:
> >
> > Just wanted to add some stats.
> >
> > I'm subscribed to three apache dev lists aside from qpid. This morning
> > (after one day away from my email) I had a grand total of 335 unread
> > messages on these lists, including very substantial JIRA notification
> > volumes !
> >
> > I'm in favour of a user list for qpid to make our user's lives a little
> > less
> > noisy.
> >
> > Hth,
> > Marnie
> >
> >
>

Re: user list

[John O'Hara <jo...@gmail.com>]

If I had to deal with this list in Notes I'd go barmy.

On 30/11/06, Marnie McCormack <ma...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> Just wanted to add some stats.
>
> I'm subscribed to three apache dev lists aside from qpid. This morning
> (after one day away from my email) I had a grand total of 335 unread
> messages on these lists, including very substantial JIRA notification
> volumes !
>
> I'm in favour of a user list for qpid to make our user's lives a little
> less
> noisy.
>
> Hth,
> Marnie
>
>

Re: user list

[Marnie McCormack <ma...@googlemail.com>]

Just wanted to add some stats.

I'm subscribed to three apache dev lists aside from qpid. This morning
(after one day away from my email) I had a grand total of 335 unread
messages on these lists, including very substantial JIRA notification
volumes !

I'm in favour of a user list for qpid to make our user's lives a little less
noisy.

Hth,
Marnie

Re: user list

[Martin Ritchie <ri...@apache.org>]

On 22/11/06, Cliff Schmidt <cl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> A very brief thread on the PPMC private list was started to request a
> user list from infrastructure.  Since I think this warrants a
> discussion, I'm moving the topic to the open dev list.
>
> I would suggest we hold off on adding a user list.  I'd direct all
> user questions to the dev list at this stage.  The Incubator used to
> set up dev and user lists for all incubating projects, but then many
> people noted that this tended to partition the two groups right at the
> time when you could really use some interaction between them.  The dev
> list should always be the place that users report bugs or request
> features or discuss interop issues.  The user list is just there to
> help users understand how to use the product.  At an early stage of
> development, most of the user comments and questions are directly
> related to the ongoing development of the product.
>
> For this reason, incubating projects these days are generally
> encouraged to keep both user and devs together on one list until the
> user-oriented traffic grows to a point that it becomes too noisy and
> not useful for all developers to be hearing.
>
> Cliff

It may be encouraged to keep both user and dev lists together but a
number of incubators have user lists. I count 29 podlings with 18 of
them having user lists. Including the recently created podling ivy.

If we put the creation of the user list up for a vote on the developer
list (with the intention that all developers should subscribe to this
user list) can we as a community go with the result even if that is
not what our mentors would recommend?

-- 
Martin Ritchie

Re: user list

[Paul Fremantle <pz...@gmail.com>]

+1 from me

That's certainly experience on Synapse.

Paul

On 11/22/06, Cliff Schmidt <cl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> A very brief thread on the PPMC private list was started to request a
> user list from infrastructure.  Since I think this warrants a
> discussion, I'm moving the topic to the open dev list.
>
> I would suggest we hold off on adding a user list.  I'd direct all
> user questions to the dev list at this stage.  The Incubator used to
> set up dev and user lists for all incubating projects, but then many
> people noted that this tended to partition the two groups right at the
> time when you could really use some interaction between them.  The dev
> list should always be the place that users report bugs or request
> features or discuss interop issues.  The user list is just there to
> help users understand how to use the product.  At an early stage of
> development, most of the user comments and questions are directly
> related to the ongoing development of the product.
>
> For this reason, incubating projects these days are generally
> encouraged to keep both user and devs together on one list until the
> user-oriented traffic grows to a point that it becomes too noisy and
> not useful for all developers to be hearing.
>
> Cliff
>


-- 
Paul Fremantle
VP/Technology, WSO2 and OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair

http://bloglines.com/blog/paulfremantle
paul@wso2.com

"Oxygenating the Web Service Platform", www.wso2.com