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Posted to dev@struts.apache.org by Johannes Geppert <jo...@web.de> on 2009/07/24 12:39:51 UTC
Struts2 jQuery Plugin - Logo
Hello,
today I release the Version 1.0 of the Struts2 jQuery Plugin see
http://code.google.com/p/struts2-jquery/
or Showcase
http://www.weinfreund.de/struts2-jquery-showcase/index.action
Now I'm think about to create a Logo for this Plugin as a combination
of the Struts2 Logo and the jQuery Logo.
Does anyone know is it possible, I mean with the licenses.
Best Regards
Johannes Geppert
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RE: Struts2 jQuery Plugin - Logo
Posted by Al Sutton <al...@funkyandroid.com>.
I'd make this a candidate for inclusion in the main release, it could certainly go a long way to replacing the current ajax tags.
Al.
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-----Original Message-----
From: Philip Luppens [mailto:philip.luppens@gmail.com]
Sent: 24 July 2009 12:16
To: Struts Developers List
Subject: Re: Struts2 jQuery Plugin - Logo
On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 1:39 PM, Johannes Geppert<jo...@web.de> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> today I release the Version 1.0 of the Struts2 jQuery Plugin see
> http://code.google.com/p/struts2-jquery/
>
> or Showcase
> http://www.weinfreund.de/struts2-jquery-showcase/index.action
... damn, that looks excellent.
Phil
>
> Now I'm think about to create a Logo for this Plugin as a combination
> of the Struts2 Logo and the jQuery Logo.
>
> Does anyone know is it possible, I mean with the licenses.
>
> Best Regards
> Johannes Geppert
>
> ---
> web: http://www.jgeppert.com
> twitter: http://twitter.com/jogep
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Struts2-jQuery-Plugin---Logo-tp24642384p24642384.html
> Sent from the Struts - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
"We cannot change the cards we are dealt, just how we play the hand."
- Randy Pausch
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Re: Struts2 jQuery Plugin - Logo
Posted by Philip Luppens <ph...@gmail.com>.
On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 1:39 PM, Johannes Geppert<jo...@web.de> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> today I release the Version 1.0 of the Struts2 jQuery Plugin see
> http://code.google.com/p/struts2-jquery/
>
> or Showcase
> http://www.weinfreund.de/struts2-jquery-showcase/index.action
... damn, that looks excellent.
Phil
>
> Now I'm think about to create a Logo for this Plugin as a combination
> of the Struts2 Logo and the jQuery Logo.
>
> Does anyone know is it possible, I mean with the licenses.
>
> Best Regards
> Johannes Geppert
>
> ---
> web: http://www.jgeppert.com
> twitter: http://twitter.com/jogep
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Struts2-jQuery-Plugin---Logo-tp24642384p24642384.html
> Sent from the Struts - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
"We cannot change the cards we are dealt, just how we play the hand."
- Randy Pausch
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Re: Struts2 jQuery Plugin - Logo
Posted by Rene Gielen <rg...@apache.org>.
We were so excited about your plugin that we forgot to kindly ask if you
would not mind us integrating it into Struts 2.
Thanks for giving this positive feedback _before_ we asked ;-)
CLA = Contributor License Agreements
See
http://www.apache.org/licenses/
- René
Johannes Geppert schrieb:
> I have no problem when this code will be integrated into struts2.
>
> But maybe someone with good skills in Struts2 and in JavaScript should take
> a look at the sources. Because this is my first struts2 plugin.
>
> What means "fill out the CLA" ? I don't know what the CLA is.
>
>
> Musachy Barroso wrote:
>> true. I get very excited about killing dead code (looking at you dojo
>> tags)
>>
>> musachy
>>
>
>
> -----
> ---
> web: http://www.jgeppert.com
> twitter: http://twitter.com/jogep
>
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Re: Struts2 jQuery Plugin - Logo
Posted by Wes Wannemacher <we...@wantii.com>.
The CLA is available here -
http://apache.org/licenses/icla.txt
It is an agreement that you are granting the Apache foundation the use
of your intellectual property as it pertains to source code
contributions. You should read through it and make sure that you are
comfortable with the conditions listed... Personally, I had no
problems with it, and I have written all manner of software (closed
source, open source, ajar source).
After you have filled out the agreement and sent it in, notify us. If
I understand correctly, there is a manual step somewhere in the chain
after you submit that someone here (Martin?) has to perform before
your CLA is filed officially.
-Wes
On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Johannes Geppert<jo...@web.de> wrote:
>
> I have no problem when this code will be integrated into struts2.
>
> But maybe someone with good skills in Struts2 and in JavaScript should take
> a look at the sources. Because this is my first struts2 plugin.
>
> What means "fill out the CLA" ? I don't know what the CLA is.
>
>
> Musachy Barroso wrote:
>>
>> true. I get very excited about killing dead code (looking at you dojo
>> tags)
>>
>> musachy
>>
>
>
> -----
> ---
> web: http://www.jgeppert.com
> twitter: http://twitter.com/jogep
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Struts2-jQuery-Plugin---Logo-tp24642384p24649501.html
> Sent from the Struts - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
Wes Wannemacher
Head Engineer, WanTii, Inc.
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Re: Struts2 jQuery Plugin - Logo
Posted by Johannes Geppert <jo...@web.de>.
I have no problem when this code will be integrated into struts2.
But maybe someone with good skills in Struts2 and in JavaScript should take
a look at the sources. Because this is my first struts2 plugin.
What means "fill out the CLA" ? I don't know what the CLA is.
Musachy Barroso wrote:
>
> true. I get very excited about killing dead code (looking at you dojo
> tags)
>
> musachy
>
-----
---
web: http://www.jgeppert.com
twitter: http://twitter.com/jogep
--
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Re: Struts2 jQuery Plugin - Logo
Posted by Musachy Barroso <mu...@gmail.com>.
true. I get very excited about killing dead code (looking at you dojo tags)
musachy
On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 9:57 AM, Wes Wannemacher<we...@wantii.com> wrote:
> For a contribution this size, we should probably have Johannes fill
> out the CLA. Although, I haven't seen his opinion on the matter. If
> Johannes wants to let us absorb it, I volunteer now to start working
> on the tests.
>
> -Wes
>
> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 12:04 PM, Musachy Barroso<mu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> That looks excellent, great work. I am big +1 for bringing this in.
>> About what Wes said, if there is only one author and the license is
>> ASL 2, it shouldn't be hard to bring it it (zip it and attach code to
>> jira?). For the unit tests I am also big +1 for selenium tests.
>>
>> musachy
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 7:15 AM, Wes Wannemacher<we...@wantii.com> wrote:
>>> I'd rather consider trying to bring this into the main struts distro.
>>> I didn't look at the code, but if other devs are interested in this
>>> route, we have to consider the following -
>>>
>>> IP Clearance
>>> Our testing policy
>>>
>>> I think we can handle the IP clearance, as long as we know it's a step
>>> we'd have to make. As I've said before on the testing policy, we'd be
>>> better served to use selenium rather than JUnit to deal with an AJAX
>>> plugin (just my opinion)...
>>>
>>> Anyone else have any thoughts?
>>>
>>> -Wes
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 10:06 AM, Johannes Geppert<jo...@web.de> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Rene Gielen wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Brilliant work! I would love to see this integrated in S2 distribution,
>>>>> if possible. Did you already setup a maven repo location for it? If not,
>>>>> let me know if you need help to add a repo space to your google code svn
>>>>> area.
>>>>>
>>>> I'am glad that you like the plugin. I don't have any experience with maven,
>>>> so it will be nice if you can help me to add it to google code.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----
>>>> ---
>>>> web: http://www.jgeppert.com
>>>> twitter: http://twitter.com/jogep
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Struts2-jQuery-Plugin---Logo-tp24642384p24645147.html
>>>> Sent from the Struts - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Wes Wannemacher
>>>
>>> Head Engineer, WanTii, Inc.
>>> Need Training? Struts, Spring, Maven, Tomcat...
>>> Ask me for a quote!
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> "Hey you! Would you help me to carry the stone?" Pink Floyd
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Wes Wannemacher
>
> Head Engineer, WanTii, Inc.
> Need Training? Struts, Spring, Maven, Tomcat...
> Ask me for a quote!
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
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>
>
--
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Re: Struts2 jQuery Plugin - Logo
Posted by Wes Wannemacher <we...@wantii.com>.
For a contribution this size, we should probably have Johannes fill
out the CLA. Although, I haven't seen his opinion on the matter. If
Johannes wants to let us absorb it, I volunteer now to start working
on the tests.
-Wes
On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 12:04 PM, Musachy Barroso<mu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> That looks excellent, great work. I am big +1 for bringing this in.
> About what Wes said, if there is only one author and the license is
> ASL 2, it shouldn't be hard to bring it it (zip it and attach code to
> jira?). For the unit tests I am also big +1 for selenium tests.
>
> musachy
>
> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 7:15 AM, Wes Wannemacher<we...@wantii.com> wrote:
>> I'd rather consider trying to bring this into the main struts distro.
>> I didn't look at the code, but if other devs are interested in this
>> route, we have to consider the following -
>>
>> IP Clearance
>> Our testing policy
>>
>> I think we can handle the IP clearance, as long as we know it's a step
>> we'd have to make. As I've said before on the testing policy, we'd be
>> better served to use selenium rather than JUnit to deal with an AJAX
>> plugin (just my opinion)...
>>
>> Anyone else have any thoughts?
>>
>> -Wes
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 10:06 AM, Johannes Geppert<jo...@web.de> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Rene Gielen wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Brilliant work! I would love to see this integrated in S2 distribution,
>>>> if possible. Did you already setup a maven repo location for it? If not,
>>>> let me know if you need help to add a repo space to your google code svn
>>>> area.
>>>>
>>> I'am glad that you like the plugin. I don't have any experience with maven,
>>> so it will be nice if you can help me to add it to google code.
>>>
>>>
>>> -----
>>> ---
>>> web: http://www.jgeppert.com
>>> twitter: http://twitter.com/jogep
>>>
>>> --
>>> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Struts2-jQuery-Plugin---Logo-tp24642384p24645147.html
>>> Sent from the Struts - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Wes Wannemacher
>>
>> Head Engineer, WanTii, Inc.
>> Need Training? Struts, Spring, Maven, Tomcat...
>> Ask me for a quote!
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> "Hey you! Would you help me to carry the stone?" Pink Floyd
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
Wes Wannemacher
Head Engineer, WanTii, Inc.
Need Training? Struts, Spring, Maven, Tomcat...
Ask me for a quote!
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Re: Struts2 jQuery Plugin - Logo
Posted by Musachy Barroso <mu...@gmail.com>.
That looks excellent, great work. I am big +1 for bringing this in.
About what Wes said, if there is only one author and the license is
ASL 2, it shouldn't be hard to bring it it (zip it and attach code to
jira?). For the unit tests I am also big +1 for selenium tests.
musachy
On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 7:15 AM, Wes Wannemacher<we...@wantii.com> wrote:
> I'd rather consider trying to bring this into the main struts distro.
> I didn't look at the code, but if other devs are interested in this
> route, we have to consider the following -
>
> IP Clearance
> Our testing policy
>
> I think we can handle the IP clearance, as long as we know it's a step
> we'd have to make. As I've said before on the testing policy, we'd be
> better served to use selenium rather than JUnit to deal with an AJAX
> plugin (just my opinion)...
>
> Anyone else have any thoughts?
>
> -Wes
>
> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 10:06 AM, Johannes Geppert<jo...@web.de> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Rene Gielen wrote:
>>>
>>> Brilliant work! I would love to see this integrated in S2 distribution,
>>> if possible. Did you already setup a maven repo location for it? If not,
>>> let me know if you need help to add a repo space to your google code svn
>>> area.
>>>
>> I'am glad that you like the plugin. I don't have any experience with maven,
>> so it will be nice if you can help me to add it to google code.
>>
>>
>> -----
>> ---
>> web: http://www.jgeppert.com
>> twitter: http://twitter.com/jogep
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Struts2-jQuery-Plugin---Logo-tp24642384p24645147.html
>> Sent from the Struts - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Wes Wannemacher
>
> Head Engineer, WanTii, Inc.
> Need Training? Struts, Spring, Maven, Tomcat...
> Ask me for a quote!
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
"Hey you! Would you help me to carry the stone?" Pink Floyd
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Re: Struts2 jQuery Plugin - Logo
Posted by Rene Gielen <gi...@it-neering.net>.
Musachy Barroso schrieb:
> +1 for combining efforts. Eric, could you submit the topics stuff as a
> patch for Johannes' plugin?
>
> I would like for us to define some strategy for this, and don't let
> drag for months. Do we all agree that bringing this into the sandbox
> is a good idea then?
>
+1
> musachy
>
> On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 12:00 AM, Obinna<ob...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I agree with Renee, Wes et al that having some kind of 'official' ajax
>> plugin is almost a requirement for a serious UI framework as serious now.
>> I've used ajax feature pretty heavily on the last 4 projects (all using
>> struts) I've worked on. The first two using dojo, and the last two using a
>> homegrown jquery integration which has turned into my plugin that Wes
>> referred to. I am a fairly heavy user of jquery now and would certainly
>> provide support a struts plugin. I am very impressed by Johannes' plugin
>> especially considering how quickly/solidly it's come together. I think as
>> Wes said, we should combine our efforts together now to provide something we
>> can all support together. For example, while Johannes' plugin focuses
>> heavily on interface features/ widgets and effects, mine focuses more on the
>> event handling and integrating events between componenent or custom js code
>> (using a publish/subscribe framework). Looking at the respective code bases
>> I think that these feature sets can be combined fairly easily.
>>
>> To summarize, I'm +! for the plugin and will help implement and support it
>> if/when approved.
>>
>> - Eric
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 8:06 PM, Musachy Barroso <mu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I am also a jquery user, so I can help support this.
>>>
>>> musachy
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 9:39 AM, Wes Wannemacher<we...@wantii.com> wrote:
>>>> [thread snip]
>>>>
>>>> I looked through the code and it is fairly straightforward. There are
>>>> Components, Beans and freemarker files. I didn't notice anything overly
>>> complex
>>>> in the build process. It looks like Johannes used eclipse, but setup the
>>>> source tree just like any maven project (src/main/java,
>>> src/main/resources).
>>>> There are no unit tests that I saw, but I don't think this should block
>>> us
>>>> from bringing into the sandbox (if we do promote this to being part of
>>>> struts).
>>>>
>>>> At this point, I think I am going to defer to Martin, as far as moving
>>>> forward. I think whichever way we go, I am going to volunteer to work on
>>> this.
>>>> If we bring it in to Apache, obviously I'll support it, but if we don't I
>>> will
>>>> probably start posting patches at Google Code. Personally, I'd rather see
>>> it
>>>> become part of Apache since it will gain more exposure (and transitively,
>>>> better support). I don't think it's a finished product, but it's much
>>> closer
>>>> than my plugin and will probably be easier to support than the existing
>>> ajax
>>>> plugin.
>>>>
>>>> I'd like to hear back from Martin, or anyone else against adoption before
>>> I
>>>> start working on it. If we decide not to bring it in, I can respect that,
>>> but
>>>> if we do bring it in, the first thing will be to maven-ize it, and use
>>> the
>>>> struts2-plugin artifact as the parent, etc.
>>>>
>>>> -Wes
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Wes Wannemacher
>>>> Author - Struts 2 In Practice
>>>> Includes coverage of Struts 2.1, Spring, JPA, JQuery, Sitemesh and more
>>>> http://www.manning.com/wannemacher
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> "Hey you! Would you help me to carry the stone?" Pink Floyd
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
--
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IT-Neering.net
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Re: Struts2 jQuery Plugin - Logo
Posted by Musachy Barroso <mu...@gmail.com>.
I have only one concern about this. We can't give commit rights to the
sandbox only, so the original authors will not have commit rights. How
has this been done before?
musachy
On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 8:11 AM, Johannes Geppert<jo...@web.de> wrote:
>
>
> Obinna wrote:
>>
>> - We need to be clear on what bits of jquery we will support (this is
>> mainly about widgets) - I like the initial suggestion to support only the
>> 'officially' released widgets as tempting as it may be to support some
>> other
>> cool ones. I think this will help prevent some of the dojo issues. We can
>> make sure that adding custom widgets isn't to difficult to make up for
>> this
>> restriction (I've given an initial attempt at this already.)
>>
>
> I agree with you, currently the plugin supports only all official
> widgets and interactions from the jquery ui.
>
> But today I become a request about an autocompleter, but this is not
> in the current jquery ui release. (But marked with prio high in the wiki).
>
> So the plugin can not map all widgets of the current dojo plugin.
> There is also only a Datepicker and not a Datetimepicker.
>
>
>
> -----
> ---
> web: http://www.jgeppert.com
> twitter: http://twitter.com/jogep
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Struts2-jQuery-Plugin---Logo-tp24642384p24701011.html
> Sent from the Struts - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
"Hey you! Would you help me to carry the stone?" Pink Floyd
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Re: Struts2 jQuery Plugin - Logo
Posted by Johannes Geppert <jo...@web.de>.
Obinna wrote:
>
> - We need to be clear on what bits of jquery we will support (this is
> mainly about widgets) - I like the initial suggestion to support only the
> 'officially' released widgets as tempting as it may be to support some
> other
> cool ones. I think this will help prevent some of the dojo issues. We can
> make sure that adding custom widgets isn't to difficult to make up for
> this
> restriction (I've given an initial attempt at this already.)
>
I agree with you, currently the plugin supports only all official
widgets and interactions from the jquery ui.
But today I become a request about an autocompleter, but this is not
in the current jquery ui release. (But marked with prio high in the wiki).
So the plugin can not map all widgets of the current dojo plugin.
There is also only a Datepicker and not a Datetimepicker.
-----
---
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twitter: http://twitter.com/jogep
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Re: Struts2 jQuery Plugin - Logo
Posted by Obinna <ob...@gmail.com>.
I'll happily submit the topics stuff as a patch but it's not *quite* that
straight-forward as there's a bit of structural code (albeit all in one .js)
file for it as well. I think we do need that strategy/design discussion
before we proceed.
Some initial thoughts:
- I think it is much better to maintain the struts/jquery integration code
in one (or maybe more) .js files which are included in head, rather than
embedding increasingly complex .js code in the templates. This will be much
easier to maintain in the long run and allows us to support additional
templates without duplicating js code (I quickly realized this when I was
initially supporting javatemplates as well as freemarker).
- We need to be clear on what bits of jquery we will support (this is
mainly about widgets) - I like the initial suggestion to support only the
'officially' released widgets as tempting as it may be to support some other
cool ones. I think this will help prevent some of the dojo issues. We can
make sure that adding custom widgets isn't to difficult to make up for this
restriction (I've given an initial attempt at this already.)
- With jquery and the loose coupling provided by topics, I think we can
make the plugin provide powerful yet easy-to-use out-of-the box
functionality while still remaining open and highly extensible for advanced
users. However, I think we should be clear on how we do this - what are the
important extension points, how do users provide custom widgets etc...
- Eric
On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 2:29 PM, Rainer Hermanns <he...@aixcept.de>wrote:
> Hi,
>
> the implementation looks really awesome and I'd really like to see this
> plugin in the core of Struts2. When we talked about the simple ajax tags
> we want to build, we were already talking about jQuery as the foundation.
>
> I'm really happy, that Johannes implemented this plugin and it is now
> ready to use and I will definitely use it.
> If we bring it into Struts2 core, I'm also willing to support this plugin
> and help to maintain and extend the functionality.
>
> > I would like for us to define some strategy for this, and don't let
> > drag for months. Do we all agree that bringing this into the sandbox
> > is a good idea then?
> Here is my +1, but maybe we should call a formal vote on this?
>
> cheers,
> Rainer
>
> --
> Rainer Hermanns
> aixcept
> Willibrordstraße 82
> 52134 Herzogenrath - Germany
> w: http://aixcept.de/
> t: +49 - 2406 - 979 22 11
> f: +49 - 2406 - 979 22 13
> m: +49 - 170 - 343 29 12
>
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>
>
Re: Struts2 jQuery Plugin - Logo
Posted by Rainer Hermanns <he...@aixcept.de>.
Don,
nope, that fault we did once before in webwork and early s2 releases :)
The jQuery plugin should be/get one of the core plugins, not part of the
struts2-core artifact.
Rainer
> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 9:29 PM, Rainer Hermanns<he...@aixcept.de>
> wrote:
>> I'm really happy, that Johannes implemented this plugin and it is now
>> ready to use and I will definitely use it.
>> If we bring it into Struts2 core, I'm also willing to support this
>> plugin
>> and help to maintain and extend the functionality.
>
> Just to clarify, what you really mean is bring the plugin into Struts
> trunk? I'm guessing you don't mean you want to include the code in
> the struts2-core artifact...
>
> Don
>
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> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
Rainer Hermanns
aixcept
Willibrordstraße 82
52134 Herzogenrath - Germany
w: http://aixcept.de/
t: +49 - 2406 - 979 22 11
f: +49 - 2406 - 979 22 13
m: +49 - 170 - 343 29 12
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Re: Struts2 jQuery Plugin - Logo
Posted by Musachy Barroso <mu...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 9:10 PM, Don Brown<do...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 9:29 PM, Rainer Hermanns<he...@aixcept.de> wrote:
>> I'm really happy, that Johannes implemented this plugin and it is now
>> ready to use and I will definitely use it.
>> If we bring it into Struts2 core, I'm also willing to support this plugin
>> and help to maintain and extend the functionality.
>
> Just to clarify, what you really mean is bring the plugin into Struts
> trunk? I'm guessing you don't mean you want to include the code in
> the struts2-core artifact...
>
> Don
nah, I am sure he meant it as in "struts core" not the actual
artifact, we all know that core is has to remain slim ;)
musachy
--
"Hey you! Would you help me to carry the stone?" Pink Floyd
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Re: Struts2 jQuery Plugin - Logo
Posted by Don Brown <do...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 9:29 PM, Rainer Hermanns<he...@aixcept.de> wrote:
> I'm really happy, that Johannes implemented this plugin and it is now
> ready to use and I will definitely use it.
> If we bring it into Struts2 core, I'm also willing to support this plugin
> and help to maintain and extend the functionality.
Just to clarify, what you really mean is bring the plugin into Struts
trunk? I'm guessing you don't mean you want to include the code in
the struts2-core artifact...
Don
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Re: Struts2 jQuery Plugin - Logo
Posted by Musachy Barroso <mu...@gmail.com>.
Go ahead with it, thanks for volunteering.
musachy
On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 8:30 AM, Rene Gielen<rg...@apache.org> wrote:
> Still no objections so far. I would volunteer to help with IP clearance
>
> Musachy Barroso schrieb:
>> Just to recap on this (no, I won't let this go stale ;) ), we have a
>> consensus on using JQuery as the underlying framework for the ajax
>> tags, and we agree that we could use this project. Is there any
>> objection against starting the IP clearance process, any volunteers to
>> help with this? (assuming there are no objections)
>>
>> musachy
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 4:52 AM, Rene Gielen<gi...@it-neering.net> wrote:
>>> First and foremost, I totally agree that we should avoid to have a
>>> driven-by-excitement attitude on this topic, and develop a reasonable
>>> consensus and plan. See further comments inline
>>>
>>> Martin Cooper schrieb:
>>>> I'm here, and I've been following along. I just haven't had time to
>>>> consolidate my thoughts until now.
>>>>
>>>> First of all, I hope everyone recognises that it's by no means my call;
>>>> it's
>>>> the team's call.
>>>>
>>>> The subject of Ajax tags in Struts 2 has been hotly discussed over a
>>>> period
>>>> of years. At different points in time, different bases for such tags have
>>>> been the hot favourite, from custom code through Dojo to jQuery, with a
>>>> few
>>>> other stops in between. Some of the work has happened here and some has
>>>> happened elsewhere.
>>>>
>>> As far as I recall, the main discussions were:
>>>
>>> - as we have a Dojo 0.4 integration, can we migrate to 0.9 (at that time)?
>>> Turned out to be that that would be more sort of a rewrite than a migration,
>>> and nobody was stepping up to do this - not only for limited resources, but
>>> also for technical doubts about the framework regarding it's API stability,
>>> performance, programming model and adoption rate.
>>>
>>> - Could AJAX framework x be integrated? Every once in a while, this question
>>> arose, and the most mentioned candidates for x were Prototype and jQuery
>>> AFAIR
>>>
>>> - Closely related to the former question: If we add support for another n
>>> AJAX frameworks, would we want to to design an abstract API to have the same
>>> tags with an easy to switch implementation done with user's AJAX framwork of
>>> choice? Although I once was a firm supporter of this idea, it turned out to
>>> be hard to realise because the frameworks extremely differ in their
>>> architectures and programming models.
>>> IMO, there are basically two feasible ways to go: define a base tag api and
>>> components, that every AJAX tags plugin is required to implement (along with
>>> consistent core attribute naming and behaviour). On top of that, allow the
>>> plugins to have their special feature stuff - similar to JSF in that case.
>>> The other way to go could be: If the user decides to go with strut2-[AJAX
>>> framework x]-plugin, he will most likely not switch to framework y during
>>> the lifetime of his project, so just develop plugin x and y independently to
>>> fit best the underlying framework's architecture and capabilities.
>>>
>>> Again, that's what I recall from the last years - anybody feel free to chime
>>> in and add, correct or discuss.
>>>
>>>> From my perspective, it is critical, in adopting any set of Ajax tags as a
>>>> baked-in part of Struts, that we, as a team, are fully convinced (a) that
>>>> the underlying toolkit is not just the flavour of the month and will last
>>>> for years to come, and (b) that we have a sufficient body of developers
>>>> committed to making it work today and keeping it working years from now.
>>>> And
>>>> I do mean years here. Certainly the world will change, and the world of
>>>> highly interactive web apps will change. But think about this: Struts 1
>>>> was
>>>> first released 9 (nine) years ago, and many thousands of web apps that
>>>> were
>>>> built on it are still running, and being maintained, today. I'm sure we
>>>> would all like to have that level of success, and longevity, with Struts
>>>> 2.
>>>> It takes commitment, though.
>>>>
>>> Totally agree. As for the flavour of the month aspect, I would add that
>>> jQuery should IMO be considered to have overcome this stage.
>>>
>>>> I do take issue with a few statements that have been made in this thread
>>>> about Ajax toolkits. Rene said that we can consider Dojo "the biggest
>>>> loser". Can we really consider a toolkit that has seen corporate adoption
>>>> from the likes of IBM, Sun, AOL, Google, Nexaweb, and numerous others,
>>>> "the
>>>> biggest loser"? Some people here may not like to work with it, but Dojo is
>>>> one of the biggest success stories in the Ajax world. That's not to say
>>>> that
>>>> jQuery has not had its successes - and, as Wes points out, has seen
>>>> adoption
>>>> by Microsoft - but jQuery is still a long way from "the" Ajax framework
>>>> that
>>>> Rene asserts.
>>>>
>>> OK, let me clarify here. I regard Dojo as the biggest loser not because it's
>>> generally bad or not adopted. It's because of the mismatch between claims
>>> and reality here. If you look at the Dojo supporting committee, it looks
>>> like a who is who dictionary. Just to mention a few: IBM, Sun, BEA, Redhat
>>> or Zend. But what was the outcome? One would expect that with such a huge
>>> supporting group, the progress should be fast and the documentation should
>>> be good. Actually, the development towards something regarded as stable took
>>> ages, and the documentation was extremely poor (which may have changes
>>> nowadays). The line ending in 0.4 line was around for one or two years
>>> AFAIR, when it was decided that the framework has to undergo a major
>>> refactoring towards the 0.9 line, which was not compatible with 0.4 any
>>> more. Many early adopters were facing the fact that moving to 0.9 would be
>>> as painful as reevaluating the other frameworks now around and possibly
>>> switch to one of these, and a lot of them did so. Although Dojo was one of
>>> the first movers to provide an AJAX framwork, they turned out to be one of
>>> the latest to declare a stable release.
>>>
>>> I totally respect that having an 0.x release usually indicates that the API
>>> is likely to change, but I would expect to have a reasonable timeframe then
>>> for early adopters to get a maintainable production quality release -
>>> especially for a project not only with this many contributors, but also with
>>> contributors getting paid for their work as their employer sees the
>>> framework as a strategic product. Actually the development of Dojo started
>>> in 2004-2005, and the 1.0 release was in late 2007. By this time, jQuery 1.2
>>> and Prototype 1.5.1 were already released. Given the claim and the
>>> impressive supporter list of Dojo, this is what I call being a big loser.
>>>
>>> As for adoption, although far from representative, here are two interesting
>>> links comparing a couple of JS frameworks:
>>>
>>> http://royal.pingdom.com/2008/06/11/javascript-framework-usage-among-top-websites/
>>> http://www.kylehayes.info/2009/03/29/survey-results-javascript-frameworks/
>>>
>>> For me it looks like, in spite of the good intentions of an impressive
>>> committee, the users have voted with their feet. Dojo's actual relevance is
>>> quite poor, and that's the second reason why I call it a loser (again,
>>> compared to it's claims). IMO Dojo is a great example that
>>> design-by-committee can have it's downsides...
>>>
>>>> That said, the above is not an argument against the adoption of jQuery as
>>>> the basis for Struts 2 Ajax tags. It's merely my attempt to bring us down
>>>> to
>>>> earth a little bit in our enthusiasm to jump on jQuery and ditch Dojo.
>>>> Each
>>>> has its merits, as do other alternatives.
>>>>
>>> As for ditching Dojo: Actually, we already did when we put it into
>>> maintainance mode. In respect to what state Dojo has now, I would not say we
>>> really do have a Dojo plugin - we do have an AJAX-features tags plugin based
>>> on an early Dojo version. Of course we need to keep it for backwards
>>> compatibility.
>>>
>>>> So, assuming the general concensus is to move forward with integration of
>>>> Johannes' tags, what are the next steps?
>>>>
>>>> 1) Musachy hit the nail on the head when he said "I would like for us to
>>>> define some strategy for this". It's crucial that we define, up front,
>>>> where
>>>> we want to go with this. What should the Ajax tags include? What should
>>>> they
>>>> specifically _not_ include, which is at least as important? Do we still
>>>> believe that what we want is a set of simple tags and nothing more? If
>>>> not,
>>>> why not? How much coupling - that is, loose or tight - do we want to live
>>>> with? It would be great to see some (more) discussion of this kind of
>>>> thing
>>>> up front, and perhaps the concensus documented on the wiki for all to see
>>>> (and abide by).
>>>>
>>>> 2) Once we've agreed on the major points from #1 above, we can take a
>>>> clear-headed look at what Johannes has done and assess how well it meets
>>>> those needs. What would need to be added? What should be removed, to keep
>>>> it
>>>> streamlined to our objectives? We should be sure that we're not jumping on
>>>> the "cool" factor, and have something that forms the basis for our needs.
>>>>
>>> Agree, and great to see that Musachy already set up a Wiki page for that.
>>> But we should also incorporate and respect the S2 users' view the best way
>>> possible. Now that Johannes' plugin is out, it will get hard to keep things
>>> "under control", given the assumption that we will have a lot of S2 users
>>> starting to adopt the plugin very soon. Our timeframe to canalize this is
>>> IMO quite short. What I suggest is that, given that we would have a
>>> consensus to incorporate a first class citizen plugin based on Johannes work
>>> backed by our first impressions of the plugins' code and functional quality,
>>> we should move it to sandbox even before we start major architectural
>>> discussion and detailed planning. That would have the following, IMO
>>> important, effects:
>>>
>>> - provide an early and clean integration point from a build management /
>>> Maven perspective for early adopters
>>>
>>> - we would clearly signal that although the original work is declared 1.0,
>>> users should not directly use it but rather use the sandbox project, with
>>> clearly stating that they have to see themselves as early adopters of a
>>> moving target
>>>
>>> - incorporate early adopters' feedback soon and canalized via the Struts
>>> lists
>>>
>>> Nevertheless, this would assume that we manage to find a solution for
>>> Martin's point 4) below.
>>>
>>> A side note regarding architecture: We should have a close look to the new
>>> JSF 2.0 versioned resource management system which was especially designed
>>> to integrate cleanly separated versions of the JS frameworks the JSF
>>> implementors want to provide and to overcome problems in managed
>>> environments such as Portals. We had big troubles with Dojo in that aspect,
>>> and we should try to do better for the plugins to come.
>>>
>>>> 3) If we're going to bring Johannes' code into Struts itself, we need an
>>>> iCLA, and personally I would prefer to see us use the IP Clearance process
>>>> to make sure we're all squared away. Johannes' iCLA is on file already.
>>>> The
>>>> IP Clearance process is intended to be straightforward and quick, so it
>>>> should not be an issue.
>>>>
>>>> 4) Musachy does raise an excellent question regarding commit rights and
>>>> the
>>>> sandbox. We have not hit this exact case before. Obviously we'll need to
>>>> figure this one out.
>>>>
>>>> One final point: I recognise and understand the enthusiasm that's behind
>>>> the
>>>> "let's get it in here now!" sentiment, but really, we're not in a huge big
>>>> hurry. Let's take the time we need to think through where we want to take
>>>> this, before we head of down the road with it. A week or two here or there
>>>> won't make any difference in the long run, but poor decisions will.
>>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>> A week or two (or even three or four :-) ) is fine, but we should have in
>>> mind that things can get out of our hands soon if the progress is lazier
>>> than that. That being said, I totally agree with Martin's point here.
>>>
>>> - Rene
>>>
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>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
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>
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Re: Struts2 jQuery Plugin - Logo
Posted by Rene Gielen <rg...@apache.org>.
Still no objections so far. I would volunteer to help with IP clearance
Musachy Barroso schrieb:
> Just to recap on this (no, I won't let this go stale ;) ), we have a
> consensus on using JQuery as the underlying framework for the ajax
> tags, and we agree that we could use this project. Is there any
> objection against starting the IP clearance process, any volunteers to
> help with this? (assuming there are no objections)
>
> musachy
>
> On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 4:52 AM, Rene Gielen<gi...@it-neering.net> wrote:
>> First and foremost, I totally agree that we should avoid to have a
>> driven-by-excitement attitude on this topic, and develop a reasonable
>> consensus and plan. See further comments inline
>>
>> Martin Cooper schrieb:
>>> I'm here, and I've been following along. I just haven't had time to
>>> consolidate my thoughts until now.
>>>
>>> First of all, I hope everyone recognises that it's by no means my call;
>>> it's
>>> the team's call.
>>>
>>> The subject of Ajax tags in Struts 2 has been hotly discussed over a
>>> period
>>> of years. At different points in time, different bases for such tags have
>>> been the hot favourite, from custom code through Dojo to jQuery, with a
>>> few
>>> other stops in between. Some of the work has happened here and some has
>>> happened elsewhere.
>>>
>> As far as I recall, the main discussions were:
>>
>> - as we have a Dojo 0.4 integration, can we migrate to 0.9 (at that time)?
>> Turned out to be that that would be more sort of a rewrite than a migration,
>> and nobody was stepping up to do this - not only for limited resources, but
>> also for technical doubts about the framework regarding it's API stability,
>> performance, programming model and adoption rate.
>>
>> - Could AJAX framework x be integrated? Every once in a while, this question
>> arose, and the most mentioned candidates for x were Prototype and jQuery
>> AFAIR
>>
>> - Closely related to the former question: If we add support for another n
>> AJAX frameworks, would we want to to design an abstract API to have the same
>> tags with an easy to switch implementation done with user's AJAX framwork of
>> choice? Although I once was a firm supporter of this idea, it turned out to
>> be hard to realise because the frameworks extremely differ in their
>> architectures and programming models.
>> IMO, there are basically two feasible ways to go: define a base tag api and
>> components, that every AJAX tags plugin is required to implement (along with
>> consistent core attribute naming and behaviour). On top of that, allow the
>> plugins to have their special feature stuff - similar to JSF in that case.
>> The other way to go could be: If the user decides to go with strut2-[AJAX
>> framework x]-plugin, he will most likely not switch to framework y during
>> the lifetime of his project, so just develop plugin x and y independently to
>> fit best the underlying framework's architecture and capabilities.
>>
>> Again, that's what I recall from the last years - anybody feel free to chime
>> in and add, correct or discuss.
>>
>>> From my perspective, it is critical, in adopting any set of Ajax tags as a
>>> baked-in part of Struts, that we, as a team, are fully convinced (a) that
>>> the underlying toolkit is not just the flavour of the month and will last
>>> for years to come, and (b) that we have a sufficient body of developers
>>> committed to making it work today and keeping it working years from now.
>>> And
>>> I do mean years here. Certainly the world will change, and the world of
>>> highly interactive web apps will change. But think about this: Struts 1
>>> was
>>> first released 9 (nine) years ago, and many thousands of web apps that
>>> were
>>> built on it are still running, and being maintained, today. I'm sure we
>>> would all like to have that level of success, and longevity, with Struts
>>> 2.
>>> It takes commitment, though.
>>>
>> Totally agree. As for the flavour of the month aspect, I would add that
>> jQuery should IMO be considered to have overcome this stage.
>>
>>> I do take issue with a few statements that have been made in this thread
>>> about Ajax toolkits. Rene said that we can consider Dojo "the biggest
>>> loser". Can we really consider a toolkit that has seen corporate adoption
>>> from the likes of IBM, Sun, AOL, Google, Nexaweb, and numerous others,
>>> "the
>>> biggest loser"? Some people here may not like to work with it, but Dojo is
>>> one of the biggest success stories in the Ajax world. That's not to say
>>> that
>>> jQuery has not had its successes - and, as Wes points out, has seen
>>> adoption
>>> by Microsoft - but jQuery is still a long way from "the" Ajax framework
>>> that
>>> Rene asserts.
>>>
>> OK, let me clarify here. I regard Dojo as the biggest loser not because it's
>> generally bad or not adopted. It's because of the mismatch between claims
>> and reality here. If you look at the Dojo supporting committee, it looks
>> like a who is who dictionary. Just to mention a few: IBM, Sun, BEA, Redhat
>> or Zend. But what was the outcome? One would expect that with such a huge
>> supporting group, the progress should be fast and the documentation should
>> be good. Actually, the development towards something regarded as stable took
>> ages, and the documentation was extremely poor (which may have changes
>> nowadays). The line ending in 0.4 line was around for one or two years
>> AFAIR, when it was decided that the framework has to undergo a major
>> refactoring towards the 0.9 line, which was not compatible with 0.4 any
>> more. Many early adopters were facing the fact that moving to 0.9 would be
>> as painful as reevaluating the other frameworks now around and possibly
>> switch to one of these, and a lot of them did so. Although Dojo was one of
>> the first movers to provide an AJAX framwork, they turned out to be one of
>> the latest to declare a stable release.
>>
>> I totally respect that having an 0.x release usually indicates that the API
>> is likely to change, but I would expect to have a reasonable timeframe then
>> for early adopters to get a maintainable production quality release -
>> especially for a project not only with this many contributors, but also with
>> contributors getting paid for their work as their employer sees the
>> framework as a strategic product. Actually the development of Dojo started
>> in 2004-2005, and the 1.0 release was in late 2007. By this time, jQuery 1.2
>> and Prototype 1.5.1 were already released. Given the claim and the
>> impressive supporter list of Dojo, this is what I call being a big loser.
>>
>> As for adoption, although far from representative, here are two interesting
>> links comparing a couple of JS frameworks:
>>
>> http://royal.pingdom.com/2008/06/11/javascript-framework-usage-among-top-websites/
>> http://www.kylehayes.info/2009/03/29/survey-results-javascript-frameworks/
>>
>> For me it looks like, in spite of the good intentions of an impressive
>> committee, the users have voted with their feet. Dojo's actual relevance is
>> quite poor, and that's the second reason why I call it a loser (again,
>> compared to it's claims). IMO Dojo is a great example that
>> design-by-committee can have it's downsides...
>>
>>> That said, the above is not an argument against the adoption of jQuery as
>>> the basis for Struts 2 Ajax tags. It's merely my attempt to bring us down
>>> to
>>> earth a little bit in our enthusiasm to jump on jQuery and ditch Dojo.
>>> Each
>>> has its merits, as do other alternatives.
>>>
>> As for ditching Dojo: Actually, we already did when we put it into
>> maintainance mode. In respect to what state Dojo has now, I would not say we
>> really do have a Dojo plugin - we do have an AJAX-features tags plugin based
>> on an early Dojo version. Of course we need to keep it for backwards
>> compatibility.
>>
>>> So, assuming the general concensus is to move forward with integration of
>>> Johannes' tags, what are the next steps?
>>>
>>> 1) Musachy hit the nail on the head when he said "I would like for us to
>>> define some strategy for this". It's crucial that we define, up front,
>>> where
>>> we want to go with this. What should the Ajax tags include? What should
>>> they
>>> specifically _not_ include, which is at least as important? Do we still
>>> believe that what we want is a set of simple tags and nothing more? If
>>> not,
>>> why not? How much coupling - that is, loose or tight - do we want to live
>>> with? It would be great to see some (more) discussion of this kind of
>>> thing
>>> up front, and perhaps the concensus documented on the wiki for all to see
>>> (and abide by).
>>>
>>> 2) Once we've agreed on the major points from #1 above, we can take a
>>> clear-headed look at what Johannes has done and assess how well it meets
>>> those needs. What would need to be added? What should be removed, to keep
>>> it
>>> streamlined to our objectives? We should be sure that we're not jumping on
>>> the "cool" factor, and have something that forms the basis for our needs.
>>>
>> Agree, and great to see that Musachy already set up a Wiki page for that.
>> But we should also incorporate and respect the S2 users' view the best way
>> possible. Now that Johannes' plugin is out, it will get hard to keep things
>> "under control", given the assumption that we will have a lot of S2 users
>> starting to adopt the plugin very soon. Our timeframe to canalize this is
>> IMO quite short. What I suggest is that, given that we would have a
>> consensus to incorporate a first class citizen plugin based on Johannes work
>> backed by our first impressions of the plugins' code and functional quality,
>> we should move it to sandbox even before we start major architectural
>> discussion and detailed planning. That would have the following, IMO
>> important, effects:
>>
>> - provide an early and clean integration point from a build management /
>> Maven perspective for early adopters
>>
>> - we would clearly signal that although the original work is declared 1.0,
>> users should not directly use it but rather use the sandbox project, with
>> clearly stating that they have to see themselves as early adopters of a
>> moving target
>>
>> - incorporate early adopters' feedback soon and canalized via the Struts
>> lists
>>
>> Nevertheless, this would assume that we manage to find a solution for
>> Martin's point 4) below.
>>
>> A side note regarding architecture: We should have a close look to the new
>> JSF 2.0 versioned resource management system which was especially designed
>> to integrate cleanly separated versions of the JS frameworks the JSF
>> implementors want to provide and to overcome problems in managed
>> environments such as Portals. We had big troubles with Dojo in that aspect,
>> and we should try to do better for the plugins to come.
>>
>>> 3) If we're going to bring Johannes' code into Struts itself, we need an
>>> iCLA, and personally I would prefer to see us use the IP Clearance process
>>> to make sure we're all squared away. Johannes' iCLA is on file already.
>>> The
>>> IP Clearance process is intended to be straightforward and quick, so it
>>> should not be an issue.
>>>
>>> 4) Musachy does raise an excellent question regarding commit rights and
>>> the
>>> sandbox. We have not hit this exact case before. Obviously we'll need to
>>> figure this one out.
>>>
>>> One final point: I recognise and understand the enthusiasm that's behind
>>> the
>>> "let's get it in here now!" sentiment, but really, we're not in a huge big
>>> hurry. Let's take the time we need to think through where we want to take
>>> this, before we head of down the road with it. A week or two here or there
>>> won't make any difference in the long run, but poor decisions will.
>>>
>> [snip]
>>
>> A week or two (or even three or four :-) ) is fine, but we should have in
>> mind that things can get out of our hands soon if the progress is lazier
>> than that. That being said, I totally agree with Martin's point here.
>>
>> - Rene
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
>
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Re: Struts2 jQuery Plugin - Logo
Posted by Musachy Barroso <mu...@gmail.com>.
Just to recap on this (no, I won't let this go stale ;) ), we have a
consensus on using JQuery as the underlying framework for the ajax
tags, and we agree that we could use this project. Is there any
objection against starting the IP clearance process, any volunteers to
help with this? (assuming there are no objections)
musachy
On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 4:52 AM, Rene Gielen<gi...@it-neering.net> wrote:
> First and foremost, I totally agree that we should avoid to have a
> driven-by-excitement attitude on this topic, and develop a reasonable
> consensus and plan. See further comments inline
>
> Martin Cooper schrieb:
>>
>> I'm here, and I've been following along. I just haven't had time to
>> consolidate my thoughts until now.
>>
>> First of all, I hope everyone recognises that it's by no means my call;
>> it's
>> the team's call.
>>
>> The subject of Ajax tags in Struts 2 has been hotly discussed over a
>> period
>> of years. At different points in time, different bases for such tags have
>> been the hot favourite, from custom code through Dojo to jQuery, with a
>> few
>> other stops in between. Some of the work has happened here and some has
>> happened elsewhere.
>>
>
> As far as I recall, the main discussions were:
>
> - as we have a Dojo 0.4 integration, can we migrate to 0.9 (at that time)?
> Turned out to be that that would be more sort of a rewrite than a migration,
> and nobody was stepping up to do this - not only for limited resources, but
> also for technical doubts about the framework regarding it's API stability,
> performance, programming model and adoption rate.
>
> - Could AJAX framework x be integrated? Every once in a while, this question
> arose, and the most mentioned candidates for x were Prototype and jQuery
> AFAIR
>
> - Closely related to the former question: If we add support for another n
> AJAX frameworks, would we want to to design an abstract API to have the same
> tags with an easy to switch implementation done with user's AJAX framwork of
> choice? Although I once was a firm supporter of this idea, it turned out to
> be hard to realise because the frameworks extremely differ in their
> architectures and programming models.
> IMO, there are basically two feasible ways to go: define a base tag api and
> components, that every AJAX tags plugin is required to implement (along with
> consistent core attribute naming and behaviour). On top of that, allow the
> plugins to have their special feature stuff - similar to JSF in that case.
> The other way to go could be: If the user decides to go with strut2-[AJAX
> framework x]-plugin, he will most likely not switch to framework y during
> the lifetime of his project, so just develop plugin x and y independently to
> fit best the underlying framework's architecture and capabilities.
>
> Again, that's what I recall from the last years - anybody feel free to chime
> in and add, correct or discuss.
>
>> From my perspective, it is critical, in adopting any set of Ajax tags as a
>> baked-in part of Struts, that we, as a team, are fully convinced (a) that
>> the underlying toolkit is not just the flavour of the month and will last
>> for years to come, and (b) that we have a sufficient body of developers
>> committed to making it work today and keeping it working years from now.
>> And
>> I do mean years here. Certainly the world will change, and the world of
>> highly interactive web apps will change. But think about this: Struts 1
>> was
>> first released 9 (nine) years ago, and many thousands of web apps that
>> were
>> built on it are still running, and being maintained, today. I'm sure we
>> would all like to have that level of success, and longevity, with Struts
>> 2.
>> It takes commitment, though.
>>
>
> Totally agree. As for the flavour of the month aspect, I would add that
> jQuery should IMO be considered to have overcome this stage.
>
>> I do take issue with a few statements that have been made in this thread
>> about Ajax toolkits. Rene said that we can consider Dojo "the biggest
>> loser". Can we really consider a toolkit that has seen corporate adoption
>> from the likes of IBM, Sun, AOL, Google, Nexaweb, and numerous others,
>> "the
>> biggest loser"? Some people here may not like to work with it, but Dojo is
>> one of the biggest success stories in the Ajax world. That's not to say
>> that
>> jQuery has not had its successes - and, as Wes points out, has seen
>> adoption
>> by Microsoft - but jQuery is still a long way from "the" Ajax framework
>> that
>> Rene asserts.
>>
>
> OK, let me clarify here. I regard Dojo as the biggest loser not because it's
> generally bad or not adopted. It's because of the mismatch between claims
> and reality here. If you look at the Dojo supporting committee, it looks
> like a who is who dictionary. Just to mention a few: IBM, Sun, BEA, Redhat
> or Zend. But what was the outcome? One would expect that with such a huge
> supporting group, the progress should be fast and the documentation should
> be good. Actually, the development towards something regarded as stable took
> ages, and the documentation was extremely poor (which may have changes
> nowadays). The line ending in 0.4 line was around for one or two years
> AFAIR, when it was decided that the framework has to undergo a major
> refactoring towards the 0.9 line, which was not compatible with 0.4 any
> more. Many early adopters were facing the fact that moving to 0.9 would be
> as painful as reevaluating the other frameworks now around and possibly
> switch to one of these, and a lot of them did so. Although Dojo was one of
> the first movers to provide an AJAX framwork, they turned out to be one of
> the latest to declare a stable release.
>
> I totally respect that having an 0.x release usually indicates that the API
> is likely to change, but I would expect to have a reasonable timeframe then
> for early adopters to get a maintainable production quality release -
> especially for a project not only with this many contributors, but also with
> contributors getting paid for their work as their employer sees the
> framework as a strategic product. Actually the development of Dojo started
> in 2004-2005, and the 1.0 release was in late 2007. By this time, jQuery 1.2
> and Prototype 1.5.1 were already released. Given the claim and the
> impressive supporter list of Dojo, this is what I call being a big loser.
>
> As for adoption, although far from representative, here are two interesting
> links comparing a couple of JS frameworks:
>
> http://royal.pingdom.com/2008/06/11/javascript-framework-usage-among-top-websites/
> http://www.kylehayes.info/2009/03/29/survey-results-javascript-frameworks/
>
> For me it looks like, in spite of the good intentions of an impressive
> committee, the users have voted with their feet. Dojo's actual relevance is
> quite poor, and that's the second reason why I call it a loser (again,
> compared to it's claims). IMO Dojo is a great example that
> design-by-committee can have it's downsides...
>
>> That said, the above is not an argument against the adoption of jQuery as
>> the basis for Struts 2 Ajax tags. It's merely my attempt to bring us down
>> to
>> earth a little bit in our enthusiasm to jump on jQuery and ditch Dojo.
>> Each
>> has its merits, as do other alternatives.
>>
>
> As for ditching Dojo: Actually, we already did when we put it into
> maintainance mode. In respect to what state Dojo has now, I would not say we
> really do have a Dojo plugin - we do have an AJAX-features tags plugin based
> on an early Dojo version. Of course we need to keep it for backwards
> compatibility.
>
>> So, assuming the general concensus is to move forward with integration of
>> Johannes' tags, what are the next steps?
>>
>> 1) Musachy hit the nail on the head when he said "I would like for us to
>> define some strategy for this". It's crucial that we define, up front,
>> where
>> we want to go with this. What should the Ajax tags include? What should
>> they
>> specifically _not_ include, which is at least as important? Do we still
>> believe that what we want is a set of simple tags and nothing more? If
>> not,
>> why not? How much coupling - that is, loose or tight - do we want to live
>> with? It would be great to see some (more) discussion of this kind of
>> thing
>> up front, and perhaps the concensus documented on the wiki for all to see
>> (and abide by).
>>
>> 2) Once we've agreed on the major points from #1 above, we can take a
>> clear-headed look at what Johannes has done and assess how well it meets
>> those needs. What would need to be added? What should be removed, to keep
>> it
>> streamlined to our objectives? We should be sure that we're not jumping on
>> the "cool" factor, and have something that forms the basis for our needs.
>>
>
> Agree, and great to see that Musachy already set up a Wiki page for that.
> But we should also incorporate and respect the S2 users' view the best way
> possible. Now that Johannes' plugin is out, it will get hard to keep things
> "under control", given the assumption that we will have a lot of S2 users
> starting to adopt the plugin very soon. Our timeframe to canalize this is
> IMO quite short. What I suggest is that, given that we would have a
> consensus to incorporate a first class citizen plugin based on Johannes work
> backed by our first impressions of the plugins' code and functional quality,
> we should move it to sandbox even before we start major architectural
> discussion and detailed planning. That would have the following, IMO
> important, effects:
>
> - provide an early and clean integration point from a build management /
> Maven perspective for early adopters
>
> - we would clearly signal that although the original work is declared 1.0,
> users should not directly use it but rather use the sandbox project, with
> clearly stating that they have to see themselves as early adopters of a
> moving target
>
> - incorporate early adopters' feedback soon and canalized via the Struts
> lists
>
> Nevertheless, this would assume that we manage to find a solution for
> Martin's point 4) below.
>
> A side note regarding architecture: We should have a close look to the new
> JSF 2.0 versioned resource management system which was especially designed
> to integrate cleanly separated versions of the JS frameworks the JSF
> implementors want to provide and to overcome problems in managed
> environments such as Portals. We had big troubles with Dojo in that aspect,
> and we should try to do better for the plugins to come.
>
>> 3) If we're going to bring Johannes' code into Struts itself, we need an
>> iCLA, and personally I would prefer to see us use the IP Clearance process
>> to make sure we're all squared away. Johannes' iCLA is on file already.
>> The
>> IP Clearance process is intended to be straightforward and quick, so it
>> should not be an issue.
>>
>> 4) Musachy does raise an excellent question regarding commit rights and
>> the
>> sandbox. We have not hit this exact case before. Obviously we'll need to
>> figure this one out.
>>
>> One final point: I recognise and understand the enthusiasm that's behind
>> the
>> "let's get it in here now!" sentiment, but really, we're not in a huge big
>> hurry. Let's take the time we need to think through where we want to take
>> this, before we head of down the road with it. A week or two here or there
>> won't make any difference in the long run, but poor decisions will.
>>
> [snip]
>
> A week or two (or even three or four :-) ) is fine, but we should have in
> mind that things can get out of our hands soon if the progress is lazier
> than that. That being said, I totally agree with Martin's point here.
>
> - Rene
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
"Hey you! Would you help me to carry the stone?" Pink Floyd
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
Re: Struts2 jQuery Plugin - Logo
Posted by Rene Gielen <gi...@it-neering.net>.
First and foremost, I totally agree that we should avoid to have a
driven-by-excitement attitude on this topic, and develop a reasonable
consensus and plan. See further comments inline
Martin Cooper schrieb:
> I'm here, and I've been following along. I just haven't had time to
> consolidate my thoughts until now.
>
> First of all, I hope everyone recognises that it's by no means my call; it's
> the team's call.
>
> The subject of Ajax tags in Struts 2 has been hotly discussed over a period
> of years. At different points in time, different bases for such tags have
> been the hot favourite, from custom code through Dojo to jQuery, with a few
> other stops in between. Some of the work has happened here and some has
> happened elsewhere.
>
As far as I recall, the main discussions were:
- as we have a Dojo 0.4 integration, can we migrate to 0.9 (at that
time)? Turned out to be that that would be more sort of a rewrite than a
migration, and nobody was stepping up to do this - not only for limited
resources, but also for technical doubts about the framework regarding
it's API stability, performance, programming model and adoption rate.
- Could AJAX framework x be integrated? Every once in a while, this
question arose, and the most mentioned candidates for x were Prototype
and jQuery AFAIR
- Closely related to the former question: If we add support for another
n AJAX frameworks, would we want to to design an abstract API to have
the same tags with an easy to switch implementation done with user's
AJAX framwork of choice? Although I once was a firm supporter of this
idea, it turned out to be hard to realise because the frameworks
extremely differ in their architectures and programming models.
IMO, there are basically two feasible ways to go: define a base tag api
and components, that every AJAX tags plugin is required to implement
(along with consistent core attribute naming and behaviour). On top of
that, allow the plugins to have their special feature stuff - similar to
JSF in that case. The other way to go could be: If the user decides to
go with strut2-[AJAX framework x]-plugin, he will most likely not switch
to framework y during the lifetime of his project, so just develop
plugin x and y independently to fit best the underlying framework's
architecture and capabilities.
Again, that's what I recall from the last years - anybody feel free to
chime in and add, correct or discuss.
> From my perspective, it is critical, in adopting any set of Ajax tags as a
> baked-in part of Struts, that we, as a team, are fully convinced (a) that
> the underlying toolkit is not just the flavour of the month and will last
> for years to come, and (b) that we have a sufficient body of developers
> committed to making it work today and keeping it working years from now. And
> I do mean years here. Certainly the world will change, and the world of
> highly interactive web apps will change. But think about this: Struts 1 was
> first released 9 (nine) years ago, and many thousands of web apps that were
> built on it are still running, and being maintained, today. I'm sure we
> would all like to have that level of success, and longevity, with Struts 2.
> It takes commitment, though.
>
Totally agree. As for the flavour of the month aspect, I would add that
jQuery should IMO be considered to have overcome this stage.
> I do take issue with a few statements that have been made in this thread
> about Ajax toolkits. Rene said that we can consider Dojo "the biggest
> loser". Can we really consider a toolkit that has seen corporate adoption
> from the likes of IBM, Sun, AOL, Google, Nexaweb, and numerous others, "the
> biggest loser"? Some people here may not like to work with it, but Dojo is
> one of the biggest success stories in the Ajax world. That's not to say that
> jQuery has not had its successes - and, as Wes points out, has seen adoption
> by Microsoft - but jQuery is still a long way from "the" Ajax framework that
> Rene asserts.
>
OK, let me clarify here. I regard Dojo as the biggest loser not because
it's generally bad or not adopted. It's because of the mismatch between
claims and reality here. If you look at the Dojo supporting committee,
it looks like a who is who dictionary. Just to mention a few: IBM, Sun,
BEA, Redhat or Zend. But what was the outcome? One would expect that
with such a huge supporting group, the progress should be fast and the
documentation should be good. Actually, the development towards
something regarded as stable took ages, and the documentation was
extremely poor (which may have changes nowadays). The line ending in 0.4
line was around for one or two years AFAIR, when it was decided that the
framework has to undergo a major refactoring towards the 0.9 line, which
was not compatible with 0.4 any more. Many early adopters were facing
the fact that moving to 0.9 would be as painful as reevaluating the
other frameworks now around and possibly switch to one of these, and a
lot of them did so. Although Dojo was one of the first movers to provide
an AJAX framwork, they turned out to be one of the latest to declare a
stable release.
I totally respect that having an 0.x release usually indicates that the
API is likely to change, but I would expect to have a reasonable
timeframe then for early adopters to get a maintainable production
quality release - especially for a project not only with this many
contributors, but also with contributors getting paid for their work as
their employer sees the framework as a strategic product. Actually the
development of Dojo started in 2004-2005, and the 1.0 release was in
late 2007. By this time, jQuery 1.2 and Prototype 1.5.1 were already
released. Given the claim and the impressive supporter list of Dojo,
this is what I call being a big loser.
As for adoption, although far from representative, here are two
interesting links comparing a couple of JS frameworks:
http://royal.pingdom.com/2008/06/11/javascript-framework-usage-among-top-websites/
http://www.kylehayes.info/2009/03/29/survey-results-javascript-frameworks/
For me it looks like, in spite of the good intentions of an impressive
committee, the users have voted with their feet. Dojo's actual relevance
is quite poor, and that's the second reason why I call it a loser
(again, compared to it's claims). IMO Dojo is a great example that
design-by-committee can have it's downsides...
> That said, the above is not an argument against the adoption of jQuery as
> the basis for Struts 2 Ajax tags. It's merely my attempt to bring us down to
> earth a little bit in our enthusiasm to jump on jQuery and ditch Dojo. Each
> has its merits, as do other alternatives.
>
As for ditching Dojo: Actually, we already did when we put it into
maintainance mode. In respect to what state Dojo has now, I would not
say we really do have a Dojo plugin - we do have an AJAX-features tags
plugin based on an early Dojo version. Of course we need to keep it for
backwards compatibility.
> So, assuming the general concensus is to move forward with integration of
> Johannes' tags, what are the next steps?
>
> 1) Musachy hit the nail on the head when he said "I would like for us to
> define some strategy for this". It's crucial that we define, up front, where
> we want to go with this. What should the Ajax tags include? What should they
> specifically _not_ include, which is at least as important? Do we still
> believe that what we want is a set of simple tags and nothing more? If not,
> why not? How much coupling - that is, loose or tight - do we want to live
> with? It would be great to see some (more) discussion of this kind of thing
> up front, and perhaps the concensus documented on the wiki for all to see
> (and abide by).
>
> 2) Once we've agreed on the major points from #1 above, we can take a
> clear-headed look at what Johannes has done and assess how well it meets
> those needs. What would need to be added? What should be removed, to keep it
> streamlined to our objectives? We should be sure that we're not jumping on
> the "cool" factor, and have something that forms the basis for our needs.
>
Agree, and great to see that Musachy already set up a Wiki page for
that. But we should also incorporate and respect the S2 users' view the
best way possible. Now that Johannes' plugin is out, it will get hard to
keep things "under control", given the assumption that we will have a
lot of S2 users starting to adopt the plugin very soon. Our timeframe to
canalize this is IMO quite short. What I suggest is that, given that we
would have a consensus to incorporate a first class citizen plugin based
on Johannes work backed by our first impressions of the plugins' code
and functional quality, we should move it to sandbox even before we
start major architectural discussion and detailed planning. That would
have the following, IMO important, effects:
- provide an early and clean integration point from a build management /
Maven perspective for early adopters
- we would clearly signal that although the original work is declared
1.0, users should not directly use it but rather use the sandbox
project, with clearly stating that they have to see themselves as early
adopters of a moving target
- incorporate early adopters' feedback soon and canalized via the Struts
lists
Nevertheless, this would assume that we manage to find a solution for
Martin's point 4) below.
A side note regarding architecture: We should have a close look to the
new JSF 2.0 versioned resource management system which was especially
designed to integrate cleanly separated versions of the JS frameworks
the JSF implementors want to provide and to overcome problems in managed
environments such as Portals. We had big troubles with Dojo in that
aspect, and we should try to do better for the plugins to come.
> 3) If we're going to bring Johannes' code into Struts itself, we need an
> iCLA, and personally I would prefer to see us use the IP Clearance process
> to make sure we're all squared away. Johannes' iCLA is on file already. The
> IP Clearance process is intended to be straightforward and quick, so it
> should not be an issue.
>
> 4) Musachy does raise an excellent question regarding commit rights and the
> sandbox. We have not hit this exact case before. Obviously we'll need to
> figure this one out.
>
> One final point: I recognise and understand the enthusiasm that's behind the
> "let's get it in here now!" sentiment, but really, we're not in a huge big
> hurry. Let's take the time we need to think through where we want to take
> this, before we head of down the road with it. A week or two here or there
> won't make any difference in the long run, but poor decisions will.
>
[snip]
A week or two (or even three or four :-) ) is fine, but we should have
in mind that things can get out of our hands soon if the progress is
lazier than that. That being said, I totally agree with Martin's point here.
- Rene
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Re: Struts2 jQuery Plugin - Logo
Posted by Musachy Barroso <mu...@gmail.com>.
Ok I added a page to the wiki with what I think we have
discussed/agreed so far, and the things we need to do:
http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/S2WIKI/JQuery+Ajax+Tags+Plugin+Proposal
So far we all agree that we need a small set of tags that covers the
simple uses cases, and that it is not supposed to expose all the
features of the underlying framework. My answer to: why jquery?
JQuery has proven to be very reliable, small and stable, there is
plenty of documentation, but above all that, there are several of us
using it on our current jobs, which gives it a good chance to be
properly maintained. Also, we were already working ("we" as in Wes
;)) on a JQuery plugin.
Feel free to fill in the wiki with your ideas and comments.
musachy
On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 7:41 PM, Martin Cooper<ma...@apache.org> wrote:
> I'm here, and I've been following along. I just haven't had time to
> consolidate my thoughts until now.
>
> First of all, I hope everyone recognises that it's by no means my call; it's
> the team's call.
>
> The subject of Ajax tags in Struts 2 has been hotly discussed over a period
> of years. At different points in time, different bases for such tags have
> been the hot favourite, from custom code through Dojo to jQuery, with a few
> other stops in between. Some of the work has happened here and some has
> happened elsewhere.
>
> From my perspective, it is critical, in adopting any set of Ajax tags as a
> baked-in part of Struts, that we, as a team, are fully convinced (a) that
> the underlying toolkit is not just the flavour of the month and will last
> for years to come, and (b) that we have a sufficient body of developers
> committed to making it work today and keeping it working years from now. And
> I do mean years here. Certainly the world will change, and the world of
> highly interactive web apps will change. But think about this: Struts 1 was
> first released 9 (nine) years ago, and many thousands of web apps that were
> built on it are still running, and being maintained, today. I'm sure we
> would all like to have that level of success, and longevity, with Struts 2.
> It takes commitment, though.
>
> I do take issue with a few statements that have been made in this thread
> about Ajax toolkits. Rene said that we can consider Dojo "the biggest
> loser". Can we really consider a toolkit that has seen corporate adoption
> from the likes of IBM, Sun, AOL, Google, Nexaweb, and numerous others, "the
> biggest loser"? Some people here may not like to work with it, but Dojo is
> one of the biggest success stories in the Ajax world. That's not to say that
> jQuery has not had its successes - and, as Wes points out, has seen adoption
> by Microsoft - but jQuery is still a long way from "the" Ajax framework that
> Rene asserts.
>
> That said, the above is not an argument against the adoption of jQuery as
> the basis for Struts 2 Ajax tags. It's merely my attempt to bring us down to
> earth a little bit in our enthusiasm to jump on jQuery and ditch Dojo. Each
> has its merits, as do other alternatives.
>
> So, assuming the general concensus is to move forward with integration of
> Johannes' tags, what are the next steps?
>
> 1) Musachy hit the nail on the head when he said "I would like for us to
> define some strategy for this". It's crucial that we define, up front, where
> we want to go with this. What should the Ajax tags include? What should they
> specifically _not_ include, which is at least as important? Do we still
> believe that what we want is a set of simple tags and nothing more? If not,
> why not? How much coupling - that is, loose or tight - do we want to live
> with? It would be great to see some (more) discussion of this kind of thing
> up front, and perhaps the concensus documented on the wiki for all to see
> (and abide by).
>
> 2) Once we've agreed on the major points from #1 above, we can take a
> clear-headed look at what Johannes has done and assess how well it meets
> those needs. What would need to be added? What should be removed, to keep it
> streamlined to our objectives? We should be sure that we're not jumping on
> the "cool" factor, and have something that forms the basis for our needs.
>
> 3) If we're going to bring Johannes' code into Struts itself, we need an
> iCLA, and personally I would prefer to see us use the IP Clearance process
> to make sure we're all squared away. Johannes' iCLA is on file already. The
> IP Clearance process is intended to be straightforward and quick, so it
> should not be an issue.
>
> 4) Musachy does raise an excellent question regarding commit rights and the
> sandbox. We have not hit this exact case before. Obviously we'll need to
> figure this one out.
>
> One final point: I recognise and understand the enthusiasm that's behind the
> "let's get it in here now!" sentiment, but really, we're not in a huge big
> hurry. Let's take the time we need to think through where we want to take
> this, before we head of down the road with it. A week or two here or there
> won't make any difference in the long run, but poor decisions will.
>
> --
> Martin Cooper
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 6:22 AM, Wes Wannemacher <we...@wantii.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 7:29 AM, Rainer Hermanns<he...@aixcept.de>
>> wrote:
>> [snip]
>> > Here is my +1, but maybe we should call a formal vote on this?
>> >
>>
>> I don't think we need a vote, the only person (voice of reason) so far
>> was Martin. I would say that if you're listening Martin, chime in and
>> let us know if we've convinced you yet. Or, let us know which concerns
>> you want addressed before moving forward.
>>
>> -Wes
>>
>> --
>> Wes Wannemacher
>>
>> Head Engineer, WanTii, Inc.
>> Need Training? Struts, Spring, Maven, Tomcat...
>> Ask me for a quote!
>>
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Re: Struts2 jQuery Plugin - Logo
Posted by Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org>.
I'm here, and I've been following along. I just haven't had time to
consolidate my thoughts until now.
First of all, I hope everyone recognises that it's by no means my call; it's
the team's call.
The subject of Ajax tags in Struts 2 has been hotly discussed over a period
of years. At different points in time, different bases for such tags have
been the hot favourite, from custom code through Dojo to jQuery, with a few
other stops in between. Some of the work has happened here and some has
happened elsewhere.
>From my perspective, it is critical, in adopting any set of Ajax tags as a
baked-in part of Struts, that we, as a team, are fully convinced (a) that
the underlying toolkit is not just the flavour of the month and will last
for years to come, and (b) that we have a sufficient body of developers
committed to making it work today and keeping it working years from now. And
I do mean years here. Certainly the world will change, and the world of
highly interactive web apps will change. But think about this: Struts 1 was
first released 9 (nine) years ago, and many thousands of web apps that were
built on it are still running, and being maintained, today. I'm sure we
would all like to have that level of success, and longevity, with Struts 2.
It takes commitment, though.
I do take issue with a few statements that have been made in this thread
about Ajax toolkits. Rene said that we can consider Dojo "the biggest
loser". Can we really consider a toolkit that has seen corporate adoption
from the likes of IBM, Sun, AOL, Google, Nexaweb, and numerous others, "the
biggest loser"? Some people here may not like to work with it, but Dojo is
one of the biggest success stories in the Ajax world. That's not to say that
jQuery has not had its successes - and, as Wes points out, has seen adoption
by Microsoft - but jQuery is still a long way from "the" Ajax framework that
Rene asserts.
That said, the above is not an argument against the adoption of jQuery as
the basis for Struts 2 Ajax tags. It's merely my attempt to bring us down to
earth a little bit in our enthusiasm to jump on jQuery and ditch Dojo. Each
has its merits, as do other alternatives.
So, assuming the general concensus is to move forward with integration of
Johannes' tags, what are the next steps?
1) Musachy hit the nail on the head when he said "I would like for us to
define some strategy for this". It's crucial that we define, up front, where
we want to go with this. What should the Ajax tags include? What should they
specifically _not_ include, which is at least as important? Do we still
believe that what we want is a set of simple tags and nothing more? If not,
why not? How much coupling - that is, loose or tight - do we want to live
with? It would be great to see some (more) discussion of this kind of thing
up front, and perhaps the concensus documented on the wiki for all to see
(and abide by).
2) Once we've agreed on the major points from #1 above, we can take a
clear-headed look at what Johannes has done and assess how well it meets
those needs. What would need to be added? What should be removed, to keep it
streamlined to our objectives? We should be sure that we're not jumping on
the "cool" factor, and have something that forms the basis for our needs.
3) If we're going to bring Johannes' code into Struts itself, we need an
iCLA, and personally I would prefer to see us use the IP Clearance process
to make sure we're all squared away. Johannes' iCLA is on file already. The
IP Clearance process is intended to be straightforward and quick, so it
should not be an issue.
4) Musachy does raise an excellent question regarding commit rights and the
sandbox. We have not hit this exact case before. Obviously we'll need to
figure this one out.
One final point: I recognise and understand the enthusiasm that's behind the
"let's get it in here now!" sentiment, but really, we're not in a huge big
hurry. Let's take the time we need to think through where we want to take
this, before we head of down the road with it. A week or two here or there
won't make any difference in the long run, but poor decisions will.
--
Martin Cooper
On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 6:22 AM, Wes Wannemacher <we...@wantii.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 7:29 AM, Rainer Hermanns<he...@aixcept.de>
> wrote:
> [snip]
> > Here is my +1, but maybe we should call a formal vote on this?
> >
>
> I don't think we need a vote, the only person (voice of reason) so far
> was Martin. I would say that if you're listening Martin, chime in and
> let us know if we've convinced you yet. Or, let us know which concerns
> you want addressed before moving forward.
>
> -Wes
>
> --
> Wes Wannemacher
>
> Head Engineer, WanTii, Inc.
> Need Training? Struts, Spring, Maven, Tomcat...
> Ask me for a quote!
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
Re: Struts2 jQuery Plugin - Logo
Posted by Wes Wannemacher <we...@wantii.com>.
On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 7:29 AM, Rainer Hermanns<he...@aixcept.de> wrote:
[snip]
> Here is my +1, but maybe we should call a formal vote on this?
>
I don't think we need a vote, the only person (voice of reason) so far
was Martin. I would say that if you're listening Martin, chime in and
let us know if we've convinced you yet. Or, let us know which concerns
you want addressed before moving forward.
-Wes
--
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Head Engineer, WanTii, Inc.
Need Training? Struts, Spring, Maven, Tomcat...
Ask me for a quote!
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Re: Struts2 jQuery Plugin - Logo
Posted by Rainer Hermanns <he...@aixcept.de>.
Hi,
the implementation looks really awesome and I'd really like to see this
plugin in the core of Struts2. When we talked about the simple ajax tags
we want to build, we were already talking about jQuery as the foundation.
I'm really happy, that Johannes implemented this plugin and it is now
ready to use and I will definitely use it.
If we bring it into Struts2 core, I'm also willing to support this plugin
and help to maintain and extend the functionality.
> I would like for us to define some strategy for this, and don't let
> drag for months. Do we all agree that bringing this into the sandbox
> is a good idea then?
Here is my +1, but maybe we should call a formal vote on this?
cheers,
Rainer
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aixcept
Willibrordstraße 82
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Re: Struts2 jQuery Plugin - Logo
Posted by Musachy Barroso <mu...@gmail.com>.
+1 for combining efforts. Eric, could you submit the topics stuff as a
patch for Johannes' plugin?
I would like for us to define some strategy for this, and don't let
drag for months. Do we all agree that bringing this into the sandbox
is a good idea then?
musachy
On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 12:00 AM, Obinna<ob...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I agree with Renee, Wes et al that having some kind of 'official' ajax
> plugin is almost a requirement for a serious UI framework as serious now.
> I've used ajax feature pretty heavily on the last 4 projects (all using
> struts) I've worked on. The first two using dojo, and the last two using a
> homegrown jquery integration which has turned into my plugin that Wes
> referred to. I am a fairly heavy user of jquery now and would certainly
> provide support a struts plugin. I am very impressed by Johannes' plugin
> especially considering how quickly/solidly it's come together. I think as
> Wes said, we should combine our efforts together now to provide something we
> can all support together. For example, while Johannes' plugin focuses
> heavily on interface features/ widgets and effects, mine focuses more on the
> event handling and integrating events between componenent or custom js code
> (using a publish/subscribe framework). Looking at the respective code bases
> I think that these feature sets can be combined fairly easily.
>
> To summarize, I'm +! for the plugin and will help implement and support it
> if/when approved.
>
> - Eric
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 8:06 PM, Musachy Barroso <mu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I am also a jquery user, so I can help support this.
>>
>> musachy
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 9:39 AM, Wes Wannemacher<we...@wantii.com> wrote:
>> > [thread snip]
>> >
>> > I looked through the code and it is fairly straightforward. There are
>> > Components, Beans and freemarker files. I didn't notice anything overly
>> complex
>> > in the build process. It looks like Johannes used eclipse, but setup the
>> > source tree just like any maven project (src/main/java,
>> src/main/resources).
>> > There are no unit tests that I saw, but I don't think this should block
>> us
>> > from bringing into the sandbox (if we do promote this to being part of
>> > struts).
>> >
>> > At this point, I think I am going to defer to Martin, as far as moving
>> > forward. I think whichever way we go, I am going to volunteer to work on
>> this.
>> > If we bring it in to Apache, obviously I'll support it, but if we don't I
>> will
>> > probably start posting patches at Google Code. Personally, I'd rather see
>> it
>> > become part of Apache since it will gain more exposure (and transitively,
>> > better support). I don't think it's a finished product, but it's much
>> closer
>> > than my plugin and will probably be easier to support than the existing
>> ajax
>> > plugin.
>> >
>> > I'd like to hear back from Martin, or anyone else against adoption before
>> I
>> > start working on it. If we decide not to bring it in, I can respect that,
>> but
>> > if we do bring it in, the first thing will be to maven-ize it, and use
>> the
>> > struts2-plugin artifact as the parent, etc.
>> >
>> > -Wes
>> >
>> > --
>> > Wes Wannemacher
>> > Author - Struts 2 In Practice
>> > Includes coverage of Struts 2.1, Spring, JPA, JQuery, Sitemesh and more
>> > http://www.manning.com/wannemacher
>> >
>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> "Hey you! Would you help me to carry the stone?" Pink Floyd
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
>>
>
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Re: Struts2 jQuery Plugin - Logo
Posted by Johannes Geppert <jo...@web.de>.
I think also that a modern web framework like struts2 needs AJAX support.
And every second struts2 user use the AJAX functionality of struts2
or code it with hand.
When I take a look in the download history I feel confirmed that many users
want AJAX functionality.
I can also help to support and extend this in the future.
Johannes
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Re: Struts2 jQuery Plugin - Logo
Posted by Obinna <ob...@gmail.com>.
I agree with Renee, Wes et al that having some kind of 'official' ajax
plugin is almost a requirement for a serious UI framework as serious now.
I've used ajax feature pretty heavily on the last 4 projects (all using
struts) I've worked on. The first two using dojo, and the last two using a
homegrown jquery integration which has turned into my plugin that Wes
referred to. I am a fairly heavy user of jquery now and would certainly
provide support a struts plugin. I am very impressed by Johannes' plugin
especially considering how quickly/solidly it's come together. I think as
Wes said, we should combine our efforts together now to provide something we
can all support together. For example, while Johannes' plugin focuses
heavily on interface features/ widgets and effects, mine focuses more on the
event handling and integrating events between componenent or custom js code
(using a publish/subscribe framework). Looking at the respective code bases
I think that these feature sets can be combined fairly easily.
To summarize, I'm +! for the plugin and will help implement and support it
if/when approved.
- Eric
On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 8:06 PM, Musachy Barroso <mu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am also a jquery user, so I can help support this.
>
> musachy
>
> On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 9:39 AM, Wes Wannemacher<we...@wantii.com> wrote:
> > [thread snip]
> >
> > I looked through the code and it is fairly straightforward. There are
> > Components, Beans and freemarker files. I didn't notice anything overly
> complex
> > in the build process. It looks like Johannes used eclipse, but setup the
> > source tree just like any maven project (src/main/java,
> src/main/resources).
> > There are no unit tests that I saw, but I don't think this should block
> us
> > from bringing into the sandbox (if we do promote this to being part of
> > struts).
> >
> > At this point, I think I am going to defer to Martin, as far as moving
> > forward. I think whichever way we go, I am going to volunteer to work on
> this.
> > If we bring it in to Apache, obviously I'll support it, but if we don't I
> will
> > probably start posting patches at Google Code. Personally, I'd rather see
> it
> > become part of Apache since it will gain more exposure (and transitively,
> > better support). I don't think it's a finished product, but it's much
> closer
> > than my plugin and will probably be easier to support than the existing
> ajax
> > plugin.
> >
> > I'd like to hear back from Martin, or anyone else against adoption before
> I
> > start working on it. If we decide not to bring it in, I can respect that,
> but
> > if we do bring it in, the first thing will be to maven-ize it, and use
> the
> > struts2-plugin artifact as the parent, etc.
> >
> > -Wes
> >
> > --
> > Wes Wannemacher
> > Author - Struts 2 In Practice
> > Includes coverage of Struts 2.1, Spring, JPA, JQuery, Sitemesh and more
> > http://www.manning.com/wannemacher
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> "Hey you! Would you help me to carry the stone?" Pink Floyd
>
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>
>
Re: Struts2 jQuery Plugin - Logo
Posted by Musachy Barroso <mu...@gmail.com>.
I am also a jquery user, so I can help support this.
musachy
On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 9:39 AM, Wes Wannemacher<we...@wantii.com> wrote:
> [thread snip]
>
> I looked through the code and it is fairly straightforward. There are
> Components, Beans and freemarker files. I didn't notice anything overly complex
> in the build process. It looks like Johannes used eclipse, but setup the
> source tree just like any maven project (src/main/java, src/main/resources).
> There are no unit tests that I saw, but I don't think this should block us
> from bringing into the sandbox (if we do promote this to being part of
> struts).
>
> At this point, I think I am going to defer to Martin, as far as moving
> forward. I think whichever way we go, I am going to volunteer to work on this.
> If we bring it in to Apache, obviously I'll support it, but if we don't I will
> probably start posting patches at Google Code. Personally, I'd rather see it
> become part of Apache since it will gain more exposure (and transitively,
> better support). I don't think it's a finished product, but it's much closer
> than my plugin and will probably be easier to support than the existing ajax
> plugin.
>
> I'd like to hear back from Martin, or anyone else against adoption before I
> start working on it. If we decide not to bring it in, I can respect that, but
> if we do bring it in, the first thing will be to maven-ize it, and use the
> struts2-plugin artifact as the parent, etc.
>
> -Wes
>
> --
> Wes Wannemacher
> Author - Struts 2 In Practice
> Includes coverage of Struts 2.1, Spring, JPA, JQuery, Sitemesh and more
> http://www.manning.com/wannemacher
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
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Re: Struts2 jQuery Plugin - Logo
Posted by Wes Wannemacher <we...@wantii.com>.
[thread snip]
I looked through the code and it is fairly straightforward. There are
Components, Beans and freemarker files. I didn't notice anything overly complex
in the build process. It looks like Johannes used eclipse, but setup the
source tree just like any maven project (src/main/java, src/main/resources).
There are no unit tests that I saw, but I don't think this should block us
from bringing into the sandbox (if we do promote this to being part of
struts).
At this point, I think I am going to defer to Martin, as far as moving
forward. I think whichever way we go, I am going to volunteer to work on this.
If we bring it in to Apache, obviously I'll support it, but if we don't I will
probably start posting patches at Google Code. Personally, I'd rather see it
become part of Apache since it will gain more exposure (and transitively,
better support). I don't think it's a finished product, but it's much closer
than my plugin and will probably be easier to support than the existing ajax
plugin.
I'd like to hear back from Martin, or anyone else against adoption before I
start working on it. If we decide not to bring it in, I can respect that, but
if we do bring it in, the first thing will be to maven-ize it, and use the
struts2-plugin artifact as the parent, etc.
-Wes
--
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Author - Struts 2 In Practice
Includes coverage of Struts 2.1, Spring, JPA, JQuery, Sitemesh and more
http://www.manning.com/wannemacher
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Re: Struts2 jQuery Plugin - Logo
Posted by Wes Wannemacher <we...@wantii.com>.
On Tuesday 28 July 2009 10:45:37 pm Martin Cooper wrote:
> <another_big_snip/>
>
> What a curious statement. The very reason the ASF focuses on the use of
> mailing lists, as opposed to things like IRC, is to make sure to *include*
> people from all geographical locations. Can you elaborate on what makes it
> hard for Eric to participate via e-mail?
>
> --
> Martin Cooper
>
I've talked to Eric over IM and it's really a matter of bandwidth. In his
location, he doesn't have the high-speed connection that most of us have grown
accustomed to. The mailing lists (struts-user in particular) is actually sort
of fast-paced. If you're sharing a small amount of bandwidth, checking
extranet email is something you do infrequently if at all. If you're not
checking regularly, many threads come to life and hit closure before you have
a chance to contribute.
I didn't mean to imply anything by it, it was just my way of indicating that
even though some may not recognize his name from the lists, he is actively
working on some impressive jquery integration.
-Wes
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Re: Struts2 jQuery Plugin - Logo
Posted by Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org>.
On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 8:22 AM, Wes Wannemacher <we...@wantii.com> wrote:
<big_snip/>
> Eric's plugin is becoming somewhat mature as well, but due to his
> geographical
> location it is hard for him to participate in the mailing lists.
<another_big_snip/>
What a curious statement. The very reason the ASF focuses on the use of
mailing lists, as opposed to things like IRC, is to make sure to *include*
people from all geographical locations. Can you elaborate on what makes it
hard for Eric to participate via e-mail?
--
Martin Cooper
> -Wes
> --
> Wes Wannemacher
> Author - Struts 2 In Practice
> Includes coverage of Struts 2.1, Spring, JPA, JQuery, Sitemesh and more
> http://www.manning.com/wannemacher
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
Re: Struts2 jQuery Plugin - Logo
Posted by Wes Wannemacher <we...@wantii.com>.
On Sunday 26 July 2009 08:12:05 am Rene Gielen wrote:
> That is what I also regognize from the disussions a while ago.
>
> We all know that the Dojo tags turned out as a nightmare. Dojo looked
> promising back in these days, with all it's supporters and some good
> solutions when there were only few alternative frameworks around.
> Nevertheless, not only the programming model was hard to get and to
> understand, also the API was in constant flux without ever coming to a
> stable state for years. Today we can consider Dojo as the biggest loser
> in the JS framework run.
>
> jQuery nowadays has turned out to be stable both in functionality and
> API stability, compact, fast, mature and easy to understand. It can
> really be considered as _the_ JS/AJAX framework besides Prototype, and
> the adoption is overwhelming. Many Java web delvelopers, including a
> couple a S2 community members I know of, have already incorporated plain
> jQuery into their projects and built up a good knowledge about it. Most
> of our "competitors" incorporate it either directly or via mature
> plugins, have a look at Myfaces, Richfaces, Icefaces or Wicket.
>
> My feeling was that there was a consensus that jQuery would be the way
> to go if we wanted to go provide a good AJAX solution, but we had not
> enough resources to build a plugin from scratch. Now Johannes stepped up
> and presented a complete plugin, and IMO we should see this as a great
> opportunity. If we don't want to fall terribly behind the other web
> frameworks, we need a decent and state of the art AJAX support - pure
> Web 1.0 interfaces are more and more going away, and people tend to
> judge a web framework for consideration in their projects also by it's
> AJAX capabilities - e.g. when Rainer and I did some Struts 2 talks the
> last couple of months for JUG Cologne, that was a very clear feedback we
> got from many people in the audience.
>
> Once the plugin is there, I don't see why it would be any harder to
> maintain than oher external library plugins we have, let's say Spring or
> Sitemesh or what not - especially since I suspect a lot of S2 developers
> and community members are using jQuery on regular basis and will be able
> to help with their experience. Also, we don't have to fear an API
> breaking with every minor release as we had with Dojo, which made
> maintaining it that hard.
>
> - René
>
I am going to back Rene 100% on this. The big thing to me is the API
stability. I think it should say something that M$ includes JQuery with their
Visual Studio products. Personally, I am using my jquery plugin, and will
quickly port my current project to this new one (meaning it will get bugfixes
along the way if/when I find them) and I know Musachy is familiar with JQuery
from his help when we started the other plugin a while back.
I posted the high-level issues earlier, but I am going to take a little bit to
browse the code today and see if there are any technical issues. Johannes
mentioned a lack of familiarity with maven, but I am pretty sure that won't be
too hard to work around, I've ported a few projects to maven recently and feel
like I am getting pretty handy with it.
Another thing that no one has mentioned yet is that we are going to indirectly
end up supporting JQuery if we continue to allow these "grassroots" efforts
come along without adopting an official support plugin. Right now, there is my
plugin (which I'm using, but I'd guess that's it), but there is the other
plugin that my buddy Eric is working on here -
http://code.google.com/p/struts2-jquery-plugin/
Eric's plugin is becoming somewhat mature as well, but due to his geographical
location it is hard for him to participate in the mailing lists. IMO, more and
more users are going to start using these plugins. I think we are at a point
with all of these efforts that we could try to combine them and get a best-of-
all-worlds type of plugin, then keep it working between releases by building a
new showcase with selenium tests. It'd be a big effort, but probably have a
huge return in that we could start regaining users that we have likely lost to
other faster-moving frameworks (Spring MVC).
To address Martin's issue directly, I think the main reason we wanted to move
away from Ajax with the 2.1 release was the difficulty to support Dojo. I know,
personally, I was all for bringing in things like the JSON result type and
taking a framework-neutral approach to future development, but as Al
mentioned, this is a pie-in-sky goal. I think that if we push through the next
effort as a plugin and showcase app, we are still going to enhancing the
struts2-core to support Ajax, without tying us to JQuery. But, by adopting a
somewhat official plugin, we can provide first-class Ajax support.
-Wes
--
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Includes coverage of Struts 2.1, Spring, JPA, JQuery, Sitemesh and more
http://www.manning.com/wannemacher
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Re: Struts2 jQuery Plugin - Logo
Posted by Ian Roughley <ia...@fdar.com>.
I haven't looked at the code for the jquery plugin yet, but I can offer
some insight into the problems with the dojo integration. At the time
of writing, dojo was the most mature framework out there. The problems
we encountered was with JS programming model that dojo used as well as a
strong integration due to the API, which caused problems when the API
changed. This led to problems upgrading, and the code going dead.
There were also always problems explaining how the use, and debug, the
tags. Overall, not a great solution.
I'm glad someone stepped up to add ajax functionality to the framework
(since Philip was all words and no action :-)). I believe this is
something that we need for greater adoption (something I've spoken to
Ted about in the past). What I would want to make sure of, is that the
integration is more loosely coupled than the original dojo integration
(once again, not looked at the code). I think this is important to
avoid the problems of the past. But I do agree with Rene in that there
is a much better understanding of ajax and ajax frameworks today, which
will also help us, especially using jquery as a base technology.
/Ian
Rene Gielen wrote:
> That is what I also regognize from the disussions a while ago.
>
> We all know that the Dojo tags turned out as a nightmare. Dojo looked
> promising back in these days, with all it's supporters and some good
> solutions when there were only few alternative frameworks around.
> Nevertheless, not only the programming model was hard to get and to
> understand, also the API was in constant flux without ever coming to a
> stable state for years. Today we can consider Dojo as the biggest loser
> in the JS framework run.
>
> jQuery nowadays has turned out to be stable both in functionality and
> API stability, compact, fast, mature and easy to understand. It can
> really be considered as _the_ JS/AJAX framework besides Prototype, and
> the adoption is overwhelming. Many Java web delvelopers, including a
> couple a S2 community members I know of, have already incorporated plain
> jQuery into their projects and built up a good knowledge about it. Most
> of our "competitors" incorporate it either directly or via mature
> plugins, have a look at Myfaces, Richfaces, Icefaces or Wicket.
>
> My feeling was that there was a consensus that jQuery would be the way
> to go if we wanted to go provide a good AJAX solution, but we had not
> enough resources to build a plugin from scratch. Now Johannes stepped up
> and presented a complete plugin, and IMO we should see this as a great
> opportunity. If we don't want to fall terribly behind the other web
> frameworks, we need a decent and state of the art AJAX support - pure
> Web 1.0 interfaces are more and more going away, and people tend to
> judge a web framework for consideration in their projects also by it's
> AJAX capabilities - e.g. when Rainer and I did some Struts 2 talks the
> last couple of months for JUG Cologne, that was a very clear feedback we
> got from many people in the audience.
>
> Once the plugin is there, I don't see why it would be any harder to
> maintain than oher external library plugins we have, let's say Spring or
> Sitemesh or what not - especially since I suspect a lot of S2 developers
> and community members are using jQuery on regular basis and will be able
> to help with their experience. Also, we don't have to fear an API
> breaking with every minor release as we had with Dojo, which made
> maintaining it that hard.
>
> - René
>
> Musachy Barroso schrieb:
>
>> A while back we said that we would remove the "ajax built in" from the
>> feature list if we didn't find a replacement for the Dojo tags. Some
>> work was done on a jquery plugin by Wes, and I think I dropped 1 line
>> of code somewhere, but is hasn't got far, but we do want simple ajax
>> tags to replace the dojo ones.
>>
>> The way I see it, and I thought we were all in the same page, is that
>> we should have very simple ajax tags for the simple use cases, and not
>> go beyond that. The simple ajax tags is not the problem, the problem
>> is the library that we used to implement it which ended up creating a
>> bigger problem that it was supposed to fix.
>>
>> musachy
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 11:47 AM, Martin Cooper<ma...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Whoa. Before we go rushing off gung ho to include this as part of Struts
>>> itself, shall we re-discuss the topic that, right now, applies to this
>>> plugin just as much as to the Dojo tags?
>>>
>>> I mean, of course, the fact that we specifically decided that we didn't want
>>> to support a specific AJAX library any more, as a part of the main Struts
>>> distribution. We didn't want to get ourselves into a situation in which we
>>> had a set of tags that relied on an external library that we would then be
>>> expected to support. We didn't want to have another AJAX plugin as part of
>>> Struts that a very small number, if any, of our committers could - and,
>>> especially, would - support on an ongoing basis.
>>>
>>> I'm not fundamentally opposed to bringing this in, but let's not get too
>>> goggle-eyed over this and forget all the issues that we've hit and discussed
>>> before. If we want to make a conscious decision to change our collective
>>> mind, so to speak, then OK, but let's be aware that that's what we seem to
>>> be talking about right now.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Martin Cooper
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 7:15 AM, Wes Wannemacher <we...@wantii.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> I'd rather consider trying to bring this into the main struts distro.
>>>> I didn't look at the code, but if other devs are interested in this
>>>> route, we have to consider the following -
>>>>
>>>> IP Clearance
>>>> Our testing policy
>>>>
>>>> I think we can handle the IP clearance, as long as we know it's a step
>>>> we'd have to make. As I've said before on the testing policy, we'd be
>>>> better served to use selenium rather than JUnit to deal with an AJAX
>>>> plugin (just my opinion)...
>>>>
>>>> Anyone else have any thoughts?
>>>>
>>>> -Wes
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 10:06 AM, Johannes Geppert<jo...@web.de> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Rene Gielen wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Brilliant work! I would love to see this integrated in S2 distribution,
>>>>>> if possible. Did you already setup a maven repo location for it? If not,
>>>>>> let me know if you need help to add a repo space to your google code svn
>>>>>> area.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> I'am glad that you like the plugin. I don't have any experience with
>>>>>
>>>> maven,
>>>>
>>>>> so it will be nice if you can help me to add it to google code.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----
>>>>> ---
>>>>> web: http://www.jgeppert.com
>>>>> twitter: http://twitter.com/jogep
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> View this message in context:
>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nabble.com/Struts2-jQuery-Plugin---Logo-tp24642384p24645147.html
>>>>
>>>>> Sent from the Struts - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Wes Wannemacher
>>>>
>>>> Head Engineer, WanTii, Inc.
>>>> Need Training? Struts, Spring, Maven, Tomcat...
>>>> Ask me for a quote!
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
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Re: Struts2 jQuery Plugin - Logo
Posted by Rene Gielen <rg...@apache.org>.
That is what I also regognize from the disussions a while ago.
We all know that the Dojo tags turned out as a nightmare. Dojo looked
promising back in these days, with all it's supporters and some good
solutions when there were only few alternative frameworks around.
Nevertheless, not only the programming model was hard to get and to
understand, also the API was in constant flux without ever coming to a
stable state for years. Today we can consider Dojo as the biggest loser
in the JS framework run.
jQuery nowadays has turned out to be stable both in functionality and
API stability, compact, fast, mature and easy to understand. It can
really be considered as _the_ JS/AJAX framework besides Prototype, and
the adoption is overwhelming. Many Java web delvelopers, including a
couple a S2 community members I know of, have already incorporated plain
jQuery into their projects and built up a good knowledge about it. Most
of our "competitors" incorporate it either directly or via mature
plugins, have a look at Myfaces, Richfaces, Icefaces or Wicket.
My feeling was that there was a consensus that jQuery would be the way
to go if we wanted to go provide a good AJAX solution, but we had not
enough resources to build a plugin from scratch. Now Johannes stepped up
and presented a complete plugin, and IMO we should see this as a great
opportunity. If we don't want to fall terribly behind the other web
frameworks, we need a decent and state of the art AJAX support - pure
Web 1.0 interfaces are more and more going away, and people tend to
judge a web framework for consideration in their projects also by it's
AJAX capabilities - e.g. when Rainer and I did some Struts 2 talks the
last couple of months for JUG Cologne, that was a very clear feedback we
got from many people in the audience.
Once the plugin is there, I don't see why it would be any harder to
maintain than oher external library plugins we have, let's say Spring or
Sitemesh or what not - especially since I suspect a lot of S2 developers
and community members are using jQuery on regular basis and will be able
to help with their experience. Also, we don't have to fear an API
breaking with every minor release as we had with Dojo, which made
maintaining it that hard.
- René
Musachy Barroso schrieb:
> A while back we said that we would remove the "ajax built in" from the
> feature list if we didn't find a replacement for the Dojo tags. Some
> work was done on a jquery plugin by Wes, and I think I dropped 1 line
> of code somewhere, but is hasn't got far, but we do want simple ajax
> tags to replace the dojo ones.
>
> The way I see it, and I thought we were all in the same page, is that
> we should have very simple ajax tags for the simple use cases, and not
> go beyond that. The simple ajax tags is not the problem, the problem
> is the library that we used to implement it which ended up creating a
> bigger problem that it was supposed to fix.
>
> musachy
>
> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 11:47 AM, Martin Cooper<ma...@apache.org> wrote:
>> Whoa. Before we go rushing off gung ho to include this as part of Struts
>> itself, shall we re-discuss the topic that, right now, applies to this
>> plugin just as much as to the Dojo tags?
>>
>> I mean, of course, the fact that we specifically decided that we didn't want
>> to support a specific AJAX library any more, as a part of the main Struts
>> distribution. We didn't want to get ourselves into a situation in which we
>> had a set of tags that relied on an external library that we would then be
>> expected to support. We didn't want to have another AJAX plugin as part of
>> Struts that a very small number, if any, of our committers could - and,
>> especially, would - support on an ongoing basis.
>>
>> I'm not fundamentally opposed to bringing this in, but let's not get too
>> goggle-eyed over this and forget all the issues that we've hit and discussed
>> before. If we want to make a conscious decision to change our collective
>> mind, so to speak, then OK, but let's be aware that that's what we seem to
>> be talking about right now.
>>
>> --
>> Martin Cooper
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 7:15 AM, Wes Wannemacher <we...@wantii.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'd rather consider trying to bring this into the main struts distro.
>>> I didn't look at the code, but if other devs are interested in this
>>> route, we have to consider the following -
>>>
>>> IP Clearance
>>> Our testing policy
>>>
>>> I think we can handle the IP clearance, as long as we know it's a step
>>> we'd have to make. As I've said before on the testing policy, we'd be
>>> better served to use selenium rather than JUnit to deal with an AJAX
>>> plugin (just my opinion)...
>>>
>>> Anyone else have any thoughts?
>>>
>>> -Wes
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 10:06 AM, Johannes Geppert<jo...@web.de> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Rene Gielen wrote:
>>>>> Brilliant work! I would love to see this integrated in S2 distribution,
>>>>> if possible. Did you already setup a maven repo location for it? If not,
>>>>> let me know if you need help to add a repo space to your google code svn
>>>>> area.
>>>>>
>>>> I'am glad that you like the plugin. I don't have any experience with
>>> maven,
>>>> so it will be nice if you can help me to add it to google code.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----
>>>> ---
>>>> web: http://www.jgeppert.com
>>>> twitter: http://twitter.com/jogep
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> View this message in context:
>>> http://www.nabble.com/Struts2-jQuery-Plugin---Logo-tp24642384p24645147.html
>>>> Sent from the Struts - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Wes Wannemacher
>>>
>>> Head Engineer, WanTii, Inc.
>>> Need Training? Struts, Spring, Maven, Tomcat...
>>> Ask me for a quote!
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
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Re: Struts2 jQuery Plugin - Logo
Posted by Musachy Barroso <mu...@gmail.com>.
A while back we said that we would remove the "ajax built in" from the
feature list if we didn't find a replacement for the Dojo tags. Some
work was done on a jquery plugin by Wes, and I think I dropped 1 line
of code somewhere, but is hasn't got far, but we do want simple ajax
tags to replace the dojo ones.
The way I see it, and I thought we were all in the same page, is that
we should have very simple ajax tags for the simple use cases, and not
go beyond that. The simple ajax tags is not the problem, the problem
is the library that we used to implement it which ended up creating a
bigger problem that it was supposed to fix.
musachy
On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 11:47 AM, Martin Cooper<ma...@apache.org> wrote:
> Whoa. Before we go rushing off gung ho to include this as part of Struts
> itself, shall we re-discuss the topic that, right now, applies to this
> plugin just as much as to the Dojo tags?
>
> I mean, of course, the fact that we specifically decided that we didn't want
> to support a specific AJAX library any more, as a part of the main Struts
> distribution. We didn't want to get ourselves into a situation in which we
> had a set of tags that relied on an external library that we would then be
> expected to support. We didn't want to have another AJAX plugin as part of
> Struts that a very small number, if any, of our committers could - and,
> especially, would - support on an ongoing basis.
>
> I'm not fundamentally opposed to bringing this in, but let's not get too
> goggle-eyed over this and forget all the issues that we've hit and discussed
> before. If we want to make a conscious decision to change our collective
> mind, so to speak, then OK, but let's be aware that that's what we seem to
> be talking about right now.
>
> --
> Martin Cooper
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 7:15 AM, Wes Wannemacher <we...@wantii.com> wrote:
>
>> I'd rather consider trying to bring this into the main struts distro.
>> I didn't look at the code, but if other devs are interested in this
>> route, we have to consider the following -
>>
>> IP Clearance
>> Our testing policy
>>
>> I think we can handle the IP clearance, as long as we know it's a step
>> we'd have to make. As I've said before on the testing policy, we'd be
>> better served to use selenium rather than JUnit to deal with an AJAX
>> plugin (just my opinion)...
>>
>> Anyone else have any thoughts?
>>
>> -Wes
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 10:06 AM, Johannes Geppert<jo...@web.de> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > Rene Gielen wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Brilliant work! I would love to see this integrated in S2 distribution,
>> >> if possible. Did you already setup a maven repo location for it? If not,
>> >> let me know if you need help to add a repo space to your google code svn
>> >> area.
>> >>
>> > I'am glad that you like the plugin. I don't have any experience with
>> maven,
>> > so it will be nice if you can help me to add it to google code.
>> >
>> >
>> > -----
>> > ---
>> > web: http://www.jgeppert.com
>> > twitter: http://twitter.com/jogep
>> >
>> > --
>> > View this message in context:
>> http://www.nabble.com/Struts2-jQuery-Plugin---Logo-tp24642384p24645147.html
>> > Sent from the Struts - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> >
>> >
>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Wes Wannemacher
>>
>> Head Engineer, WanTii, Inc.
>> Need Training? Struts, Spring, Maven, Tomcat...
>> Ask me for a quote!
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>>
>>
>
--
"Hey you! Would you help me to carry the stone?" Pink Floyd
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RE: Struts2 jQuery Plugin - Logo
Posted by Al Sutton <al...@funkyandroid.com>.
As one of the original backers of the ajax-library neutral approach I think it's a noble goal that didn't pan out in reality.
It's been several months since the discussion about that took place and theres' been little if any movement in getting it done, and given that ajax components are now pretty much expected by most developers as part of a framework I see it as better that we have something than nothing, and better we have something up to date than something outdated where the same problems keep getting reported.
Al.
--
* Written an Android App? - List it at http://andappstore.com/ *
======
Funky Android Limited is registered in England & Wales with the
company number 6741909. The registered head office is Kemp House,
152-160 City Road, London, EC1V 2NX, UK.
The views expressed in this email are those of the author and not
necessarily those of Funky Android Limited, it's associates, or it's
subsidiaries.
-----Original Message-----
From: mfncooper@gmail.com [mailto:mfncooper@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Martin Cooper
Sent: 24 July 2009 19:48
To: Struts Developers List
Subject: Re: Struts2 jQuery Plugin - Logo
Whoa. Before we go rushing off gung ho to include this as part of Struts
itself, shall we re-discuss the topic that, right now, applies to this
plugin just as much as to the Dojo tags?
I mean, of course, the fact that we specifically decided that we didn't want
to support a specific AJAX library any more, as a part of the main Struts
distribution. We didn't want to get ourselves into a situation in which we
had a set of tags that relied on an external library that we would then be
expected to support. We didn't want to have another AJAX plugin as part of
Struts that a very small number, if any, of our committers could - and,
especially, would - support on an ongoing basis.
I'm not fundamentally opposed to bringing this in, but let's not get too
goggle-eyed over this and forget all the issues that we've hit and discussed
before. If we want to make a conscious decision to change our collective
mind, so to speak, then OK, but let's be aware that that's what we seem to
be talking about right now.
--
Martin Cooper
On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 7:15 AM, Wes Wannemacher <we...@wantii.com> wrote:
> I'd rather consider trying to bring this into the main struts distro.
> I didn't look at the code, but if other devs are interested in this
> route, we have to consider the following -
>
> IP Clearance
> Our testing policy
>
> I think we can handle the IP clearance, as long as we know it's a step
> we'd have to make. As I've said before on the testing policy, we'd be
> better served to use selenium rather than JUnit to deal with an AJAX
> plugin (just my opinion)...
>
> Anyone else have any thoughts?
>
> -Wes
>
> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 10:06 AM, Johannes Geppert<jo...@web.de> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Rene Gielen wrote:
> >>
> >> Brilliant work! I would love to see this integrated in S2 distribution,
> >> if possible. Did you already setup a maven repo location for it? If not,
> >> let me know if you need help to add a repo space to your google code svn
> >> area.
> >>
> > I'am glad that you like the plugin. I don't have any experience with
> maven,
> > so it will be nice if you can help me to add it to google code.
> >
> >
> > -----
> > ---
> > web: http://www.jgeppert.com
> > twitter: http://twitter.com/jogep
> >
> > --
> > View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/Struts2-jQuery-Plugin---Logo-tp24642384p24645147.html
> > Sent from the Struts - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Wes Wannemacher
>
> Head Engineer, WanTii, Inc.
> Need Training? Struts, Spring, Maven, Tomcat...
> Ask me for a quote!
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
Re: Struts2 jQuery Plugin - Logo
Posted by Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org>.
Whoa. Before we go rushing off gung ho to include this as part of Struts
itself, shall we re-discuss the topic that, right now, applies to this
plugin just as much as to the Dojo tags?
I mean, of course, the fact that we specifically decided that we didn't want
to support a specific AJAX library any more, as a part of the main Struts
distribution. We didn't want to get ourselves into a situation in which we
had a set of tags that relied on an external library that we would then be
expected to support. We didn't want to have another AJAX plugin as part of
Struts that a very small number, if any, of our committers could - and,
especially, would - support on an ongoing basis.
I'm not fundamentally opposed to bringing this in, but let's not get too
goggle-eyed over this and forget all the issues that we've hit and discussed
before. If we want to make a conscious decision to change our collective
mind, so to speak, then OK, but let's be aware that that's what we seem to
be talking about right now.
--
Martin Cooper
On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 7:15 AM, Wes Wannemacher <we...@wantii.com> wrote:
> I'd rather consider trying to bring this into the main struts distro.
> I didn't look at the code, but if other devs are interested in this
> route, we have to consider the following -
>
> IP Clearance
> Our testing policy
>
> I think we can handle the IP clearance, as long as we know it's a step
> we'd have to make. As I've said before on the testing policy, we'd be
> better served to use selenium rather than JUnit to deal with an AJAX
> plugin (just my opinion)...
>
> Anyone else have any thoughts?
>
> -Wes
>
> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 10:06 AM, Johannes Geppert<jo...@web.de> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Rene Gielen wrote:
> >>
> >> Brilliant work! I would love to see this integrated in S2 distribution,
> >> if possible. Did you already setup a maven repo location for it? If not,
> >> let me know if you need help to add a repo space to your google code svn
> >> area.
> >>
> > I'am glad that you like the plugin. I don't have any experience with
> maven,
> > so it will be nice if you can help me to add it to google code.
> >
> >
> > -----
> > ---
> > web: http://www.jgeppert.com
> > twitter: http://twitter.com/jogep
> >
> > --
> > View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/Struts2-jQuery-Plugin---Logo-tp24642384p24645147.html
> > Sent from the Struts - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Wes Wannemacher
>
> Head Engineer, WanTii, Inc.
> Need Training? Struts, Spring, Maven, Tomcat...
> Ask me for a quote!
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
Re: Struts2 jQuery Plugin - Logo
Posted by Wes Wannemacher <we...@wantii.com>.
I'd rather consider trying to bring this into the main struts distro.
I didn't look at the code, but if other devs are interested in this
route, we have to consider the following -
IP Clearance
Our testing policy
I think we can handle the IP clearance, as long as we know it's a step
we'd have to make. As I've said before on the testing policy, we'd be
better served to use selenium rather than JUnit to deal with an AJAX
plugin (just my opinion)...
Anyone else have any thoughts?
-Wes
On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 10:06 AM, Johannes Geppert<jo...@web.de> wrote:
>
>
> Rene Gielen wrote:
>>
>> Brilliant work! I would love to see this integrated in S2 distribution,
>> if possible. Did you already setup a maven repo location for it? If not,
>> let me know if you need help to add a repo space to your google code svn
>> area.
>>
> I'am glad that you like the plugin. I don't have any experience with maven,
> so it will be nice if you can help me to add it to google code.
>
>
> -----
> ---
> web: http://www.jgeppert.com
> twitter: http://twitter.com/jogep
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Struts2-jQuery-Plugin---Logo-tp24642384p24645147.html
> Sent from the Struts - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
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Re: Struts2 jQuery Plugin - Logo
Posted by Johannes Geppert <jo...@web.de>.
Rene Gielen wrote:
>
> Brilliant work! I would love to see this integrated in S2 distribution,
> if possible. Did you already setup a maven repo location for it? If not,
> let me know if you need help to add a repo space to your google code svn
> area.
>
I'am glad that you like the plugin. I don't have any experience with maven,
so it will be nice if you can help me to add it to google code.
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Re: Struts2 jQuery Plugin - Logo
Posted by Rene Gielen <gi...@it-neering.net>.
Brilliant work! I would love to see this integrated in S2 distribution,
if possible. Did you already setup a maven repo location for it? If not,
let me know if you need help to add a repo space to your google code svn
area.
Day one of the death of the dojo tags :)
- René
Johannes Geppert schrieb:
> Hello,
>
> today I release the Version 1.0 of the Struts2 jQuery Plugin see
> http://code.google.com/p/struts2-jquery/
>
> or Showcase
> http://www.weinfreund.de/struts2-jquery-showcase/index.action
>
> Now I'm think about to create a Logo for this Plugin as a combination
> of the Struts2 Logo and the jQuery Logo.
>
> Does anyone know is it possible, I mean with the licenses.
>
> Best Regards
> Johannes Geppert
>
> ---
> web: http://www.jgeppert.com
> twitter: http://twitter.com/jogep
>
>
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