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Posted to users@openoffice.apache.org by Jacek <ja...@9online.fr> on 2012/01/13 09:14:03 UTC
OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
Hello,
I tried to open ODF 1.2 extended format file generated by LibOffice using
Word 2007 and this didn't work properly.
I tried OOo 3.3.3 and I had no issue to open ODF 1.2 extended file
generated by it using word.
Someone told me that I was successful in opening OOo created file in word
because of a bug in OOo. And he added that this bug would be fixed in the
future.
Is this statement correct? Am I able to open OOo created file because of
bug? If so, is this "bug", which allows Word 2007 to open OOo generated
file, going to be fix, i.e. is OOo going to generate the files, which will
be difficult to open with Word or other Microsoft Office modules?
Is this the right forum to ask this question? If not, please let me know
where it should be asked.
Best regards
Jacek
Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
Posted by Terry <te...@yahoo.com.au>.
This is the first time I've heard anyone raise misgivings about being able to open a file. I believe your friend is quite wrong. If the file is free of flaws, no bug is involved.
----- Original Message -----
> From: Jacek <ja...@9online.fr>
> To: ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
> Cc:
> Sent: Friday, 13 January 2012 7:14 PM
> Subject: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
>
> Hello,
>
>
>
> I tried to open ODF 1.2 extended format file generated by LibOffice using
> Word 2007 and this didn't work properly.
>
> I tried OOo 3.3.3 and I had no issue to open ODF 1.2 extended file
> generated by it using word.
>
> Someone told me that I was successful in opening OOo created file in word
> because of a bug in OOo. And he added that this bug would be fixed in the
> future.
>
> Is this statement correct? Am I able to open OOo created file because of
> bug? If so, is this "bug", which allows Word 2007 to open OOo
> generated
> file, going to be fix, i.e. is OOo going to generate the files, which will
> be difficult to open with Word or other Microsoft Office modules?
>
>
>
> Is this the right forum to ask this question? If not, please let me know
> where it should be asked.
>
>
>
> Best regards
>
>
>
> Jacek
>
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Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
Posted by di...@yahoo.com.
Thank for your response. I will do as you suggested. Great application.
Thank you,
Frank Dillingham
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Lewis <el...@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 07:42:47
To: <oo...@incubator.apache.org>
Reply-To: ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to
open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
From what you wrote, there is no bug in OOo. OOo clearly creates
documents that Word 2007 can read. The problem is with LibreOffice: it
is the one with the bug. OOo and LibreOffice are not the same.
LibreOffice is a fork of OOo meaning it has the same basic computer
code, but it also has some computer code that differs from OOo. The bug
seems to be located in the computer code that differs from OOo.
If you want to use LibreOffice when sending documents to people
having Word 2007, you will need to wait until LibreOffice fixes the bug.
However, as you pointed out, you can use OOo 3.3.3 now. Why not continue
using OOo?
--Dan
On Fri, 2012-01-13 at 13:14 +0100, Jacek wrote:
> Word 2007 has no issue to open OOo created ODF 1.2 extended file. As I was told that it's because of a bug of OOo, I fear that in the future the bug will be fixed and the possibility of opening the OOo file when default format is used will be lost (as it is the case with LibOffice, today).
>
> I would like to recommend to some Association members I work with, to use Open Office, but they are not the ones who can change OOo settings or play with output file format. For me, it is a mean to introduce in their environment some "libre" software. But, it will work only and only, if they have no issue when exchanging the files with external world.
> For the time being they use Word, but as they have to upgrade their computers, I planned to recommend, at first LibOffice. As I found the LibOffice issue with word, I tried OOo.
> I was happy that there were no issue with word to open OOo 3.3.3 created file till the moment I was told that this is a bug in OOo and that this bug will be fixed...
>
> Bregs
>
> Jacek
>
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Dan Lewis [mailto:elderdanlewis@gmail.com]
> Envoyé : vendredi 13 janvier 2012 12:56
> À : ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
> Objet : Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
>
> On Fri, 2012-01-13 at 09:14 +0100, Jacek wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> >
> >
> > I tried to open ODF 1.2 extended format file generated by LibOffice
> > using Word 2007 and this didn't work properly.
> >
> > I tried OOo 3.3.3 and I had no issue to open ODF 1.2 extended file
> > generated by it using word.
> >
> > Someone told me that I was successful in opening OOo created file in
> > word because of a bug in OOo. And he added that this bug would be
> > fixed in the future.
> >
> > Is this statement correct? Am I able to open OOo created file because
> > of bug? If so, is this "bug", which allows Word 2007 to open OOo
> > generated file, going to be fix, i.e. is OOo going to generate the
> > files, which will be difficult to open with Word or other Microsoft Office modules?
> >
> >
> >
> > Is this the right forum to ask this question? If not, please let me
> > know where it should be asked.
>
> > Best regards
>
> > Jacek
> >
>
>
> The problem may be with Word 2007. ODF 1.2 extended was created after Word 2007 so Word 2007 does not know how to handle the changes made when the open document format went from ODF 1.1 to ODF 1.2 extended. There has been some comments on this mailing list earlier about MS Office not handling ODF 1.2 extended.
> Work around: open the document in OOo. Change the ODF setting.
> (Tools > Options > Load/Save > General ) Then use save As to save the document as ODF 1.0/1.1.
>
> --Dan
>
>
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RE: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
Posted by Jacek <ja...@9online.fr>.
Dan,
Thanks for this clarification.
Thus, as I understand, there is no update foreseen changing the content of OOo default output, which uses ODF 1.2 extended, ad than if today the OOo output can be read by Word 2007, this situation will be the same with the being prepared 3.4 release. Am I right? Do you know, who can confirm this point?
I switched to LibOffice when Oracle withdrew from it and I feared about the future of OOo.
Brges
Jacek
-----Message d'origine-----
De : Dan Lewis [mailto:elderdanlewis@gmail.com]
Envoyé : vendredi 13 janvier 2012 13:43
À : ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
Objet : RE: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
From what you wrote, there is no bug in OOo. OOo clearly creates documents that Word 2007 can read. The problem is with LibreOffice: it is the one with the bug. OOo and LibreOffice are not the same.
LibreOffice is a fork of OOo meaning it has the same basic computer code, but it also has some computer code that differs from OOo. The bug seems to be located in the computer code that differs from OOo.
If you want to use LibreOffice when sending documents to people having Word 2007, you will need to wait until LibreOffice fixes the bug.
However, as you pointed out, you can use OOo 3.3.3 now. Why not continue using OOo?
--Dan
On Fri, 2012-01-13 at 13:14 +0100, Jacek wrote:
> Word 2007 has no issue to open OOo created ODF 1.2 extended file. As I was told that it's because of a bug of OOo, I fear that in the future the bug will be fixed and the possibility of opening the OOo file when default format is used will be lost (as it is the case with LibOffice, today).
>
> I would like to recommend to some Association members I work with, to use Open Office, but they are not the ones who can change OOo settings or play with output file format. For me, it is a mean to introduce in their environment some "libre" software. But, it will work only and only, if they have no issue when exchanging the files with external world.
> For the time being they use Word, but as they have to upgrade their computers, I planned to recommend, at first LibOffice. As I found the LibOffice issue with word, I tried OOo.
> I was happy that there were no issue with word to open OOo 3.3.3 created file till the moment I was told that this is a bug in OOo and that this bug will be fixed...
>
> Bregs
>
> Jacek
>
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Dan Lewis [mailto:elderdanlewis@gmail.com] Envoyé : vendredi 13
> janvier 2012 12:56 À : ooo-users@incubator.apache.org Objet : Re: OOo,
> ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
>
> On Fri, 2012-01-13 at 09:14 +0100, Jacek wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> >
> >
> > I tried to open ODF 1.2 extended format file generated by LibOffice
> > using Word 2007 and this didn't work properly.
> >
> > I tried OOo 3.3.3 and I had no issue to open ODF 1.2 extended file
> > generated by it using word.
> >
> > Someone told me that I was successful in opening OOo created file in
> > word because of a bug in OOo. And he added that this bug would be
> > fixed in the future.
> >
> > Is this statement correct? Am I able to open OOo created file
> > because of bug? If so, is this "bug", which allows Word 2007 to open
> > OOo generated file, going to be fix, i.e. is OOo going to generate
> > the files, which will be difficult to open with Word or other Microsoft Office modules?
> >
> >
> >
> > Is this the right forum to ask this question? If not, please let me
> > know where it should be asked.
>
> > Best regards
>
> > Jacek
> >
>
>
> The problem may be with Word 2007. ODF 1.2 extended was created after Word 2007 so Word 2007 does not know how to handle the changes made when the open document format went from ODF 1.1 to ODF 1.2 extended. There has been some comments on this mailing list earlier about MS Office not handling ODF 1.2 extended.
> Work around: open the document in OOo. Change the ODF setting.
> (Tools > Options > Load/Save > General ) Then use save As to save the document as ODF 1.0/1.1.
>
> --Dan
>
>
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Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
Posted by Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>.
On Jan 13, 2012, at 3:15 PM, Simon Phipps wrote:
>
> On 13 Jan 2012, at 23:09, Dave Fisher wrote:
>
>> Has the TDF contacted Microsoft to report this bug?
>>
>> On two occasions where the Apache POI community discovered trouble we've been able to contact them. In the first case they patched the problem in less than one month.
>
> I can ask, but I'd suspect not as, unlike at Apache, Microsoft is not involved with TDF. Do you have a suitable pathway to reliably contact a suitable staff member? I can add a note to bug 44498* or, even better, you could :-)
The connection with MSFT was not through The ASF, it went through a user of Apache POI at a large institution. Given what Dennis had to say I will contact him to see if he wishes to make a connection. This will be off-list at first, individuals make their own choices about exposing their names in public. I will give a hint that the discussion was on the public poi-dev list about two or three years ago and it regarded PowerPoint 2008.
Regards,
Dave
>
> Thanks,
>
> S.
>
>
> * https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=44498
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RE: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <or...@msn.com>.
There are two different issues in https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=44498
One issue is a Catch 22 around the ODF 1.2 manifest:version attribute that is required for ODF 1.2 packages and that is not recognized by ODF 1.0/1.1 consumers and ODF 1.2 consumers produced prior to introduction of the requirement. (Some older implementations ignore attributes that are not understood in ODF package manifests, others may simply fail. Microsoft Word ODF 1.0/1.1 reports a problem and the option to attempt "repair.") [I've gone into this one in a previous message.]
The other problem has to do with a border not being preserved between the OOo producer and an MS Word consumer. (Word produces the border in a form that round-trips successfully via ODF, which is what makes this kind of interop detective-work so exciting. There are a number of asymmetrical interop cases between MS Office and OpenOffice, whether via ODF format, OOXML format, or Office binary-format inerchange.)
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Simon Phipps [mailto:simon@webmink.com]
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 15:15
To: ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
On 13 Jan 2012, at 23:09, Dave Fisher wrote:
> Has the TDF contacted Microsoft to report this bug?
>
> On two occasions where the Apache POI community discovered trouble we've been able to contact them. In the first case they patched the problem in less than one month.
I can ask, but I'd suspect not as, unlike at Apache, Microsoft is not involved with TDF. Do you have a suitable pathway to reliably contact a suitable staff member? I can add a note to bug 44498* or, even better, you could :-)
Thanks,
S.
* https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=44498
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Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open
OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 6:15 PM, Simon Phipps <si...@webmink.com> wrote:
>
> On 13 Jan 2012, at 23:09, Dave Fisher wrote:
>
>> Has the TDF contacted Microsoft to report this bug?
>>
>> On two occasions where the Apache POI community discovered trouble we've been able to contact them. In the first case they patched the problem in less than one month.
>
> I can ask, but I'd suspect not as, unlike at Apache, Microsoft is not involved with TDF. Do you have a suitable pathway to reliably contact a suitable staff member? I can add a note to bug 44498* or, even better, you could :-)
>
Thorsten is listed as an Ecma TC45 member:
http://www.documentfoundation.org/foundation/history/
My guess is that is your shortest path to Microsoft file format
people, since that is the OOXML committee at Ecma.
-Rob
> Thanks,
>
> S.
>
>
> * https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=44498
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Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
Posted by Simon Phipps <si...@webmink.com>.
On 13 Jan 2012, at 23:09, Dave Fisher wrote:
> Has the TDF contacted Microsoft to report this bug?
>
> On two occasions where the Apache POI community discovered trouble we've been able to contact them. In the first case they patched the problem in less than one month.
I can ask, but I'd suspect not as, unlike at Apache, Microsoft is not involved with TDF. Do you have a suitable pathway to reliably contact a suitable staff member? I can add a note to bug 44498* or, even better, you could :-)
Thanks,
S.
* https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=44498
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Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
Posted by Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>.
On Jan 13, 2012, at 1:14 PM, Simon Phipps wrote:
> Hi Dan,
>
> Your easy conclusion that LibreOffice is at fault is wrong. Please see
> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=44498
> and
> https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=115789
>
> You'll see that this is indeed a reflection of a bug in MS Word that is avoided in OOo because of a bug in OOo 3.3 ("Files from OpenOffice.org Writer fail the validation at the OpenOffice validation site allegedly because the manifest:manifest (root) tag in the META-INF/manifest.xml file lacks a version attribute.")
>
> Given this is a bug in MS Word, it is best avoided both in LibreOffice and in a future AOO release by using a format that MS Word handles correctly such as .DOC or ODF 1.1, unless Microsoft issues a patch.
Has the TDF contacted Microsoft to report this bug?
On two occasions where the Apache POI community discovered trouble we've been able to contact them. In the first case they patched the problem in less than one month.
Regards,
Dave
>
> S.
>
> On 13 Jan 2012, at 12:42, Dan Lewis wrote:
>
>> From what you wrote, there is no bug in OOo. OOo clearly creates
>> documents that Word 2007 can read. The problem is with LibreOffice: it
>> is the one with the bug. OOo and LibreOffice are not the same.
>> LibreOffice is a fork of OOo meaning it has the same basic computer
>> code, but it also has some computer code that differs from OOo. The bug
>> seems to be located in the computer code that differs from OOo.
>> If you want to use LibreOffice when sending documents to people
>> having Word 2007, you will need to wait until LibreOffice fixes the bug.
>> However, as you pointed out, you can use OOo 3.3.3 now. Why not continue
>> using OOo?
>>
>> --Dan
>>
>> On Fri, 2012-01-13 at 13:14 +0100, Jacek wrote:
>>> Word 2007 has no issue to open OOo created ODF 1.2 extended file. As I was told that it's because of a bug of OOo, I fear that in the future the bug will be fixed and the possibility of opening the OOo file when default format is used will be lost (as it is the case with LibOffice, today).
>>>
>>> I would like to recommend to some Association members I work with, to use Open Office, but they are not the ones who can change OOo settings or play with output file format. For me, it is a mean to introduce in their environment some "libre" software. But, it will work only and only, if they have no issue when exchanging the files with external world.
>>> For the time being they use Word, but as they have to upgrade their computers, I planned to recommend, at first LibOffice. As I found the LibOffice issue with word, I tried OOo.
>>> I was happy that there were no issue with word to open OOo 3.3.3 created file till the moment I was told that this is a bug in OOo and that this bug will be fixed...
>>>
>>> Bregs
>>>
>>> Jacek
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>> De : Dan Lewis [mailto:elderdanlewis@gmail.com]
>>> Envoyé : vendredi 13 janvier 2012 12:56
>>> À : ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
>>> Objet : Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
>>>
>>> On Fri, 2012-01-13 at 09:14 +0100, Jacek wrote:
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I tried to open ODF 1.2 extended format file generated by LibOffice
>>>> using Word 2007 and this didn't work properly.
>>>>
>>>> I tried OOo 3.3.3 and I had no issue to open ODF 1.2 extended file
>>>> generated by it using word.
>>>>
>>>> Someone told me that I was successful in opening OOo created file in
>>>> word because of a bug in OOo. And he added that this bug would be
>>>> fixed in the future.
>>>>
>>>> Is this statement correct? Am I able to open OOo created file because
>>>> of bug? If so, is this "bug", which allows Word 2007 to open OOo
>>>> generated file, going to be fix, i.e. is OOo going to generate the
>>>> files, which will be difficult to open with Word or other Microsoft Office modules?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Is this the right forum to ask this question? If not, please let me
>>>> know where it should be asked.
>>>
>>>> Best regards
>>>
>>>> Jacek
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The problem may be with Word 2007. ODF 1.2 extended was created after Word 2007 so Word 2007 does not know how to handle the changes made when the open document format went from ODF 1.1 to ODF 1.2 extended. There has been some comments on this mailing list earlier about MS Office not handling ODF 1.2 extended.
>>> Work around: open the document in OOo. Change the ODF setting.
>>> (Tools > Options > Load/Save > General ) Then use save As to save the document as ODF 1.0/1.1.
>>>
>>> --Dan
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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RE: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <or...@msn.com>.
It is not a bug for an ODF 1.1 consumer to fail to understand an attribute that was introduced as mandatory in ODF 1.2 and that was non-existent in ODF 1.0/1.1/IS 26300. It is not a bug for an ODF 1.1 consumer to conclude that it might not understand what the unknown attribute using an ODF namespace might require of it and decline to process the document except after warning the user.
However, if the error message from Word is bypassed and word is allowed to attempt to repair what it receives as an acceptable ODF 1.1 document, it will all work. The same happens in the reverse direction when OOo/LO implementations complain about Word ODT packages. There are reciprocating defects [;<).
(It is arguably a bug in ODF 1.2 that the attribute was required and broke down-level compatibility for no earthly reason. To my regret, I had something to do with that happening.)
Furthermore, validating an ODF document from Microsoft Word as an ODF 1.2 document is spurious because it is identified as an ODF 1.1 document.
The failure of Writer ODT documents to pass an ODF 1.2 validator because of the ODF 1.2 requirement is a consequence of the anticipatory implementation of ODF 1.2 prior to the requirement for the version attribute being added. That has nothing to do with bugs in Microsoft Word .ODT packages. (There are some, but they don't seem to bother most OpenOffice/LibreOffice implementations, and vice versa).
I agree, that the situation is messy and cannot be attributed to a defect in any single implementation of ODF support. It is closer to a comedy of errors with enough deviations to go around, along with some helpful seasoning from the ODF 1.2 specification itself.
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Simon Phipps [mailto:simon@webmink.com]
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 13:14
To: ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
Hi Dan,
Your easy conclusion that LibreOffice is at fault is wrong. Please see
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=44498
and
https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=115789
You'll see that this is indeed a reflection of a bug in MS Word that is avoided in OOo because of a bug in OOo 3.3 ("Files from OpenOffice.org Writer fail the validation at the OpenOffice validation site allegedly because the manifest:manifest (root) tag in the META-INF/manifest.xml file lacks a version attribute.")
Given this is a bug in MS Word, it is best avoided both in LibreOffice and in a future AOO release by using a format that MS Word handles correctly such as .DOC or ODF 1.1, unless Microsoft issues a patch.
S.
On 13 Jan 2012, at 12:42, Dan Lewis wrote:
> From what you wrote, there is no bug in OOo. OOo clearly creates
> documents that Word 2007 can read. The problem is with LibreOffice: it
> is the one with the bug. OOo and LibreOffice are not the same.
> LibreOffice is a fork of OOo meaning it has the same basic computer
> code, but it also has some computer code that differs from OOo. The bug
> seems to be located in the computer code that differs from OOo.
> If you want to use LibreOffice when sending documents to people
> having Word 2007, you will need to wait until LibreOffice fixes the bug.
> However, as you pointed out, you can use OOo 3.3.3 now. Why not continue
> using OOo?
>
> --Dan
>
> On Fri, 2012-01-13 at 13:14 +0100, Jacek wrote:
>> Word 2007 has no issue to open OOo created ODF 1.2 extended file. As I was told that it's because of a bug of OOo, I fear that in the future the bug will be fixed and the possibility of opening the OOo file when default format is used will be lost (as it is the case with LibOffice, today).
>>
>> I would like to recommend to some Association members I work with, to use Open Office, but they are not the ones who can change OOo settings or play with output file format. For me, it is a mean to introduce in their environment some "libre" software. But, it will work only and only, if they have no issue when exchanging the files with external world.
>> For the time being they use Word, but as they have to upgrade their computers, I planned to recommend, at first LibOffice. As I found the LibOffice issue with word, I tried OOo.
>> I was happy that there were no issue with word to open OOo 3.3.3 created file till the moment I was told that this is a bug in OOo and that this bug will be fixed...
>>
>> Bregs
>>
>> Jacek
>>
>>
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : Dan Lewis [mailto:elderdanlewis@gmail.com]
>> Envoyé : vendredi 13 janvier 2012 12:56
>> À : ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
>> Objet : Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
>>
>> On Fri, 2012-01-13 at 09:14 +0100, Jacek wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I tried to open ODF 1.2 extended format file generated by LibOffice
>>> using Word 2007 and this didn't work properly.
>>>
>>> I tried OOo 3.3.3 and I had no issue to open ODF 1.2 extended file
>>> generated by it using word.
>>>
>>> Someone told me that I was successful in opening OOo created file in
>>> word because of a bug in OOo. And he added that this bug would be
>>> fixed in the future.
>>>
>>> Is this statement correct? Am I able to open OOo created file because
>>> of bug? If so, is this "bug", which allows Word 2007 to open OOo
>>> generated file, going to be fix, i.e. is OOo going to generate the
>>> files, which will be difficult to open with Word or other Microsoft Office modules?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Is this the right forum to ask this question? If not, please let me
>>> know where it should be asked.
>>
>>> Best regards
>>
>>> Jacek
>>>
>>
>>
>> The problem may be with Word 2007. ODF 1.2 extended was created after Word 2007 so Word 2007 does not know how to handle the changes made when the open document format went from ODF 1.1 to ODF 1.2 extended. There has been some comments on this mailing list earlier about MS Office not handling ODF 1.2 extended.
>> Work around: open the document in OOo. Change the ODF setting.
>> (Tools > Options > Load/Save > General ) Then use save As to save the document as ODF 1.0/1.1.
>>
>> --Dan
>>
>>
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Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to
open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
Posted by floris v <fl...@gmail.com>.
Agreed that the developers should always have the user perspective in
mind. If I may say so, that's where they often failed in the past. There
are still several long-standing feature/enhancement requests about stuff
that would really make life better for heavy users that were handled by
somebody who apparently doesn't even understand what they are about so
that exasperated (professional) users who put effort in explaining why
those enhancements are important feel they're being made fun of. One
such request is about returning the cursor to the last position before a
Replace all.
I'd also like to remind all of you that OOo isn't 100 % compatible with
ODF - recently somebody in the forum asked about highlighting all text
with a comment attached, as in MS Word. It appears that this is already
part of the ODF definition by OASIS, but so far it hasn't been
implemented in OOo. How can we complain about Microsoft not properly
supporting an ISO standard if the developers of OOo themselves, some of
them also active in OASIS, don't properly support it themselves?
Peter aka floris v
Op 18-1-2012 0:29, Terry schreef:
> Rob mentioned that he would like a user's perspective. As a user, I prefer usability over adherence to some dogma.
>
> Looking at the issue pragmatically, the ASF licence, as I understand it, means that Apache OpenOffice has the best chance of promoting the ODF as a standard because it provides commercial entities with an incentive to collaborate. The same commercial realities apply when weighing up practicability against philosophy. Reality trumps theory any day.
>
>
> Thirdly, I do not favour heavy-handed censorship in this or any other medium for exchanging opinions.
>
> - Terry
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Dennis E. Hamilton<de...@acm.org>
>> To: ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
>> Cc:
>> Sent: Wednesday, 18 January 2012 4:39 AM
>> Subject: RE: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
>>
>> 1. I agree that this is something to try at the Plugfest.
>>
>> 2. It would be unfortunate were Microsoft ODF 1.2 support to require the
>> attribute (thus rejecting existing OO.o and LO documents that don't have it)
>> or to produce it (thus causing the down-level problem for themselves in their
>> existing ODF 1.1 consumers).
>>
>> - Dennis
>>
>> My understanding is that Microsoft intends to report on provisions for ODF in
>> the next version of Microsoft Office at the time of the Brussels plugfest. That
>> may not be current information, it is just the only information I've seen.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 09:19
>> To: ooo-users@incubator.apache.org; dennis.hamilton@acm.org
>> Subject: Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open
>> OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 12:02 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
>> <de...@acm.org> wrote:
>>> Rob, I agree completely with your sentiment concerning slavish adherence to
>> a specification when that adherence breaks interoperability in unfortunate and
>> costly (support-wise) ways.
>> [ ... ]
>>
>> It would be good to know what Microsoft will do with their next
>> version of Office as well, e.g., whether they will have this same
>> issue. I'd hate to make a change, and then have next version of
>> Office suddenly require that attribute and reject docs otherwise.
>> Maybe something to try at the Brussels Plugfest.
>>
>> [ ... ]
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
Posted by Terry <te...@yahoo.com.au>.
Rob mentioned that he would like a user's perspective. As a user, I prefer usability over adherence to some dogma.
Looking at the issue pragmatically, the ASF licence, as I understand it, means that Apache OpenOffice has the best chance of promoting the ODF as a standard because it provides commercial entities with an incentive to collaborate. The same commercial realities apply when weighing up practicability against philosophy. Reality trumps theory any day.
Thirdly, I do not favour heavy-handed censorship in this or any other medium for exchanging opinions.
- Terry
----- Original Message -----
> From: Dennis E. Hamilton <de...@acm.org>
> To: ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
> Cc:
> Sent: Wednesday, 18 January 2012 4:39 AM
> Subject: RE: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
>
> 1. I agree that this is something to try at the Plugfest.
>
> 2. It would be unfortunate were Microsoft ODF 1.2 support to require the
> attribute (thus rejecting existing OO.o and LO documents that don't have it)
> or to produce it (thus causing the down-level problem for themselves in their
> existing ODF 1.1 consumers).
>
> - Dennis
>
> My understanding is that Microsoft intends to report on provisions for ODF in
> the next version of Microsoft Office at the time of the Brussels plugfest. That
> may not be current information, it is just the only information I've seen.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 09:19
> To: ooo-users@incubator.apache.org; dennis.hamilton@acm.org
> Subject: Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open
> OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
>
> On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 12:02 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
> <de...@acm.org> wrote:
>> Rob, I agree completely with your sentiment concerning slavish adherence to
> a specification when that adherence breaks interoperability in unfortunate and
> costly (support-wise) ways.
> [ ... ]
>
> It would be good to know what Microsoft will do with their next
> version of Office as well, e.g., whether they will have this same
> issue. I'd hate to make a change, and then have next version of
> Office suddenly require that attribute and reject docs otherwise.
> Maybe something to try at the Brussels Plugfest.
>
> [ ... ]
>
>
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RE: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
1. I agree that this is something to try at the Plugfest.
2. It would be unfortunate were Microsoft ODF 1.2 support to require the attribute (thus rejecting existing OO.o and LO documents that don't have it) or to produce it (thus causing the down-level problem for themselves in their existing ODF 1.1 consumers).
- Dennis
My understanding is that Microsoft intends to report on provisions for ODF in the next version of Microsoft Office at the time of the Brussels plugfest. That may not be current information, it is just the only information I've seen.
-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 09:19
To: ooo-users@incubator.apache.org; dennis.hamilton@acm.org
Subject: Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 12:02 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
<de...@acm.org> wrote:
> Rob, I agree completely with your sentiment concerning slavish adherence to a specification when that adherence breaks interoperability in unfortunate and costly (support-wise) ways.
[ ... ]
It would be good to know what Microsoft will do with their next
version of Office as well, e.g., whether they will have this same
issue. I'd hate to make a change, and then have next version of
Office suddenly require that attribute and reject docs otherwise.
Maybe something to try at the Brussels Plugfest.
[ ... ]
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Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open
OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 12:02 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
<de...@acm.org> wrote:
> Rob, I agree completely with your sentiment concerning slavish adherence to a specification when that adherence breaks interoperability in unfortunate and costly (support-wise) ways.
>
> My only point is that such slavish adherence also exists in changes that show up in OOo-dev 3.4.0 and in the current developer snapshots at Apache OpenOffice. So there is a pot-kettle-black problem in making derisive comments about how LO has also fallen into that pot-hole. Making attributions about TDF process quality is unwarranted.
>
The Apache project was not responsible for the 3.4 beta. TDF was
responsible for what they released. When we release 3.4 we will be
responsible for that. I sure hope that we don't have that bug.
> It would be good to put our (AOO, LO, etc.) heads together and ensure that there is a mutual agreement on a way to preserve interoperability and also make the deviation from the specification widely understood (i.e. with an ODF Interoperability and Conformance Advisory and, ideally, an ODF 1.2 erratum and an ODF 1.3 correction).
>
It would be good to know what Microsoft will do with their next
version of Office as well, e.g., whether they will have this same
issue. I'd hate to make a change, and then have next version of
Office suddenly require that attribute and reject docs otherwise.
Maybe something to try at the Brussels Plugfest.
> - Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 04:27
> To: ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
>
> On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 10:03 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
> <de...@acm.org> wrote:
>> Rob,
>>
>> I have no idea how get from a catch-22 between ODF 1.2 (latest), ODF 1.2 earlier, and down-level ODF 1.1 consumers that are strict about it (like Microsoft Word 2007/2010) to this outburst about LibreOffice. There is no foundation for that departure into the stratosphere.
>>
>
> I have no wish for the ODF standard, like the US Constitution or the
> Bible, being used as an excuse to justify stupidity. ODF is a
> specification for document exchange. If you are using it in a way
> that decreases interoperability then you really need to step back and
> ask yourself if your literal interpretation really makes sense.
>
> If you bought a hammer and the instructions had an ambiguous statement
> that lead you to think it was asking you to hit yourself in the head
> rather than the nail on the head, would you do it? What if it was an
> ISO standard? I assume not.
>
> Think of it from the user's perspective. Are they really going to be
> satisfied with the argument "The standard told me to do it" when their
> documents show up as corrupt in MS Office 2007? I don't think so.
> Standards may have errors. User expectations do not, at least not for
> any viable software application. And until we have 90% market share
> the user will assume that MS Office is correct. Reality sucks. Deal
> with it.
>
> -Rob.
>
>> - Dennis
>>
>> FOR THOSE PLAYING ALONG AT HOME:
>>
>> True, the situation has been over-simplified and everyone who says not-us presumes it is some other guys instead. But that is not what analysis reveals.
>>
>> For the record, simple documents written in ODF 1.2 (extended) from the Apache OpenOffice developer build of 3.4.0 have the same down-level interop problem with Microsoft Office. A simple ODF 1.2 (not extended) document from OOo-dev 3.4.0, the last beta produced by Oracle, also has the problem.
>>
>> A simple test against the Microsoft Word ODF 1.1 consumer with *any* document from *any* of these producers could have detected the problem.
>>
>> However, a simple document written in ODF 1.2 (not-extended) from OpenOffice.org 3.3.0 (Oracle distribution) does *not* have the down-level interop problem. Which means that, instead, it is in violation of the ODF 1.2 manifest schema, which was changed after anticipatory claiming of ODF 1.2 happened. You will be thrilled to learn that Lotus Symphony 3.0.0 FP3 is in the same boat: Word doesn't flinch, but a current ODF Conformance Checker will.
>>
>> My money is on those who realize that the schema is not the thing to be slavish about, especially for an inconsequential retro-active provision, if the goal is least friction for interop with their own down-level and other ODF 1.0/1.1 implementations. It is clear that, with the confusion this situation has caused here and in the interop efforts of actual users, the creation of this retro-active provision in ODF 1.2 was a stupid move at the ODF TC. I am embarrassed that I didn't catch it there. Basically Michael Brauer and I are the culprits.
>>
>> My direct experience with senior LibreOffice developers is that they are acutely aware of changes in ODF 1.2 that are causing needless down-level interop problems and they are attempting to navigate that morass. At Apache OpenOffice the development effort is just getting revivified enough to where some of these same provisions can be dealt with. It would be good to find a common basis for navigating these shoals.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
>> Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 12:23
>> To: ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
>>
>> [ ... ]
>>
>> If a program does not meet user expectations then it is a bug. If you
>> want to be compatible with Microsoft Office then you need to play by
>> their rules. The existence of standards like ODF and OOXML does not
>> change the basic fact that interoperability is hard work. It requires
>> testing. It does not happen overnight. It is not merely the result of
>> an incantation that begins with the sacred syllables "ISO".
>>
>> In any case Seeing responses like this from LibreOffice makes be very
>> optimistic about the future of Apache OpenOffice. Whatever the cause,
>> the fact that LibreOffice ships with this problem shows either a
>> woefully inadequate QA program, or total indifference to real world
>> requirements. Even testing a single LibreOffice document in Office
>> 2007 would have shown this bug. Is that too much to expect?
>>
>> [ ... ]
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: ooo-users-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: ooo-users-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>
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RE: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
Rob, I agree completely with your sentiment concerning slavish adherence to a specification when that adherence breaks interoperability in unfortunate and costly (support-wise) ways.
My only point is that such slavish adherence also exists in changes that show up in OOo-dev 3.4.0 and in the current developer snapshots at Apache OpenOffice. So there is a pot-kettle-black problem in making derisive comments about how LO has also fallen into that pot-hole. Making attributions about TDF process quality is unwarranted.
It would be good to put our (AOO, LO, etc.) heads together and ensure that there is a mutual agreement on a way to preserve interoperability and also make the deviation from the specification widely understood (i.e. with an ODF Interoperability and Conformance Advisory and, ideally, an ODF 1.2 erratum and an ODF 1.3 correction).
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 04:27
To: ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 10:03 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
<de...@acm.org> wrote:
> Rob,
>
> I have no idea how get from a catch-22 between ODF 1.2 (latest), ODF 1.2 earlier, and down-level ODF 1.1 consumers that are strict about it (like Microsoft Word 2007/2010) to this outburst about LibreOffice. There is no foundation for that departure into the stratosphere.
>
I have no wish for the ODF standard, like the US Constitution or the
Bible, being used as an excuse to justify stupidity. ODF is a
specification for document exchange. If you are using it in a way
that decreases interoperability then you really need to step back and
ask yourself if your literal interpretation really makes sense.
If you bought a hammer and the instructions had an ambiguous statement
that lead you to think it was asking you to hit yourself in the head
rather than the nail on the head, would you do it? What if it was an
ISO standard? I assume not.
Think of it from the user's perspective. Are they really going to be
satisfied with the argument "The standard told me to do it" when their
documents show up as corrupt in MS Office 2007? I don't think so.
Standards may have errors. User expectations do not, at least not for
any viable software application. And until we have 90% market share
the user will assume that MS Office is correct. Reality sucks. Deal
with it.
-Rob.
> - Dennis
>
> FOR THOSE PLAYING ALONG AT HOME:
>
> True, the situation has been over-simplified and everyone who says not-us presumes it is some other guys instead. But that is not what analysis reveals.
>
> For the record, simple documents written in ODF 1.2 (extended) from the Apache OpenOffice developer build of 3.4.0 have the same down-level interop problem with Microsoft Office. A simple ODF 1.2 (not extended) document from OOo-dev 3.4.0, the last beta produced by Oracle, also has the problem.
>
> A simple test against the Microsoft Word ODF 1.1 consumer with *any* document from *any* of these producers could have detected the problem.
>
> However, a simple document written in ODF 1.2 (not-extended) from OpenOffice.org 3.3.0 (Oracle distribution) does *not* have the down-level interop problem. Which means that, instead, it is in violation of the ODF 1.2 manifest schema, which was changed after anticipatory claiming of ODF 1.2 happened. You will be thrilled to learn that Lotus Symphony 3.0.0 FP3 is in the same boat: Word doesn't flinch, but a current ODF Conformance Checker will.
>
> My money is on those who realize that the schema is not the thing to be slavish about, especially for an inconsequential retro-active provision, if the goal is least friction for interop with their own down-level and other ODF 1.0/1.1 implementations. It is clear that, with the confusion this situation has caused here and in the interop efforts of actual users, the creation of this retro-active provision in ODF 1.2 was a stupid move at the ODF TC. I am embarrassed that I didn't catch it there. Basically Michael Brauer and I are the culprits.
>
> My direct experience with senior LibreOffice developers is that they are acutely aware of changes in ODF 1.2 that are causing needless down-level interop problems and they are attempting to navigate that morass. At Apache OpenOffice the development effort is just getting revivified enough to where some of these same provisions can be dealt with. It would be good to find a common basis for navigating these shoals.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
> Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 12:23
> To: ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
>
> [ ... ]
>
> If a program does not meet user expectations then it is a bug. If you
> want to be compatible with Microsoft Office then you need to play by
> their rules. The existence of standards like ODF and OOXML does not
> change the basic fact that interoperability is hard work. It requires
> testing. It does not happen overnight. It is not merely the result of
> an incantation that begins with the sacred syllables "ISO".
>
> In any case Seeing responses like this from LibreOffice makes be very
> optimistic about the future of Apache OpenOffice. Whatever the cause,
> the fact that LibreOffice ships with this problem shows either a
> woefully inadequate QA program, or total indifference to real world
> requirements. Even testing a single LibreOffice document in Office
> 2007 would have shown this bug. Is that too much to expect?
>
> [ ... ]
>
>
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Re: Apache OpenOffice
Posted by Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>.
Art Pederson wrote:
> Will this be integrated with the Open Office we have before Apache or
> will we have to delete the old one?
The starting point was OpenOffice.org 3.4-beta, so the upgrade should
replace the old version as usual. If you installed extensions manually,
you might need to reinstall them, but this is still in development.
Regards,
Andrea.
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Re: Apache OpenOffice
Posted by Art Pederson <ve...@sasktel.net>.
Will this be integrated with the Open Office we have before Apache or
will we have to delete the old one?
On 30/01/2012 1:12 AM, Terry wrote:
> The developers are aiming to release 3.4 this quarter. Presumably the release will be published on the announce list.
>
> http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/mailing-lists.html
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Stephen Anstey<st...@hotmail.com>
>> To: ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
>> Cc:
>> Sent: Monday, 30 January 2012 5:44 PM
>> Subject: Apache OpenOffice
>>
>> Does anyone know when Apache OpenOffice is going to be released?
>>
>> Stephen Anstey
>>
>>
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>
>
>
--
*
God Bless!
Art Pederson
Prince Albert, Saskatchewan, Canada
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Re: Apache OpenOffice
Posted by Terry <te...@yahoo.com.au>.
The developers are aiming to release 3.4 this quarter. Presumably the release will be published on the announce list.
http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/mailing-lists.html
----- Original Message -----
> From: Stephen Anstey <st...@hotmail.com>
> To: ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
> Cc:
> Sent: Monday, 30 January 2012 5:44 PM
> Subject: Apache OpenOffice
>
> Does anyone know when Apache OpenOffice is going to be released?
>
> Stephen Anstey
>
>
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Apache OpenOffice
Posted by Stephen Anstey <st...@hotmail.com>.
Does anyone know when Apache OpenOffice is going to be released?
Stephen Anstey
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RE: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
You will find this and the related discussion of interest as well, <http://tools.oasis-open.org/issues/browse/OFFICE-3740>.
Note that this is about the spurious notion that the ODF 1.1 consumer in Microsoft Office is in error because of a package <manifest:manifest> start-tag attribute that was not introduced for that element until relatively late in the ODF 1.2 progression.
It is also the case that all documents produced by OpenOffice.org and LibreOffice.org as ODF 1.2 documents prior to the "bug fix" will now be reported as not conforming by later versions of the ODF validator. (OO.o has never had a stable release with the "fix.")
My recommendation is that, regardless of what the ODF TC does or does not do, the behavior of Apache OpenOffice be updated to treat the <manifest:manifest> start-tag attribute manifest:version="1.2" as optional and not produce it. (This has nothing to do with the optional appearance of manifest:version attributes on <manifest:file-entry> elements.)
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Andrea Pescetti [mailto:pescetti@apache.org]
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 09:45
To: ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
On 17/01/2012 Rob Weir wrote:
> Think of it from the user's perspective. Are they really going to be
> satisfied with the argument "The standard told me to do it" when their
> documents show up as corrupt in MS Office 2007? I don't think so.
Regardless of other discussions, do we have an issue in
https://issues.apache.org/ooo/ to track this problem?
The issue should probably include a reference to
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=44498#c17
since the analysis there is probably useful to discussing the issue for
Apache OpenOffice too, and to
https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=115789
i.e., the bugfix in OpenOffice.org that triggered the error in Word.
Regards,
Andrea.
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Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to
open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
Posted by Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>.
On 17/01/2012 Rob Weir wrote:
> Think of it from the user's perspective. Are they really going to be
> satisfied with the argument "The standard told me to do it" when their
> documents show up as corrupt in MS Office 2007? I don't think so.
Regardless of other discussions, do we have an issue in
https://issues.apache.org/ooo/ to track this problem?
The issue should probably include a reference to
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=44498#c17
since the analysis there is probably useful to discussing the issue for
Apache OpenOffice too, and to
https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=115789
i.e., the bugfix in OpenOffice.org that triggered the error in Word.
Regards,
Andrea.
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RE: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
I missed this before I replied to the public one. That is useful though.
Here it is happening again. This is not a defect in the Microsoft Office implementation of ODF 1.1 consumers. (There are plenty of those to go around. This is not one of them.) Creating an "Office Quirks" Save As mode for this case is technically inappropriate and certainly misleading. Why be anxious to this on someone else's implementation? The problem originated in a late introduction into the ODF 1.2 specification.
There is nothing wrong with an ODF 1.1 consumer raising a complaint when it encounters an ODF package that has an unrecognized attribute on the <manifest:manifest>element. An ODF 1.1 consumer cannot be expected to know that ODF 1.2 added such a thing and made it mandatory.
To remedy the problem by avoiding use of the mandatory attribute is straightforward and will bother no-one. ODF 1.2 consumers dare not object to the absence of the attribute because it will impeach the documents of their own earlier ODF 1.2 implementations that don't have it. For example, OpenOffice.org 3.3.0-produced and LO 3.3.2-produced documents do not have it.
Abstractly, the solution to this particular situation is to (1) never produce that <manifest:manifest> manifest:version attribute or, alternatively, (2) only produce the attribute for documents that absolutely required an ODF 1.2 (or later) consumer to be properly processed and that cannot be successfully consumed as if they are documents of earlier ODF format versions. I suspect that (1) will be the immediate and simplest approach. In all cases, ODF 1.2 consumers need to view the attribute as optional because they can't expect it on existing (so-called) ODF 1.2 documents.
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 05:26
To: ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 7:27 AM, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 10:03 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
> <de...@acm.org> wrote:
>> Rob,
>>
>> I have no idea how get from a catch-22 between ODF 1.2 (latest), ODF 1.2 earlier, and down-level ODF 1.1 consumers that are strict about it (like Microsoft Word 2007/2010) to this outburst about LibreOffice. There is no foundation for that departure into the stratosphere.
>>
>
> I have no wish for the ODF standard, like the US Constitution or the
> Bible, being used as an excuse to justify stupidity. ODF is a
> specification for document exchange. If you are using it in a way
> that decreases interoperability then you really need to step back and
> ask yourself if your literal interpretation really makes sense.
>
Sorry, I meant to send that note to Dennis only. Obviously it is up
for each product, proprietary and open source, to determine the
optimal trade-off between real-world interoperability and standards
purity. If LibreOffice's users are happy with the choices made by the
LibreOffice team, and they don't mind that their documents are flagged
as "corrupt" in MS Office, then no one is to say they are wrong.
However, I think AOO users may benefit from some additional
flexibility here. For example, we could have a configuration flag
that allows them to switch a "MS Office compatibility mode" on or off.
In some cases, such as when they are targeting an ODF-based workflow,
strict conformance with the ODF standard will be the overriding
concern. In other cases, where they are predominately exchanging
documents with MS Office users, compatibility will be more important.
I'd be interested in user feedback whether such a configuration option
would be useful.
-Rob
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Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open
OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 7:27 AM, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 10:03 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
> <de...@acm.org> wrote:
>> Rob,
>>
>> I have no idea how get from a catch-22 between ODF 1.2 (latest), ODF 1.2 earlier, and down-level ODF 1.1 consumers that are strict about it (like Microsoft Word 2007/2010) to this outburst about LibreOffice. There is no foundation for that departure into the stratosphere.
>>
>
> I have no wish for the ODF standard, like the US Constitution or the
> Bible, being used as an excuse to justify stupidity. ODF is a
> specification for document exchange. If you are using it in a way
> that decreases interoperability then you really need to step back and
> ask yourself if your literal interpretation really makes sense.
>
Sorry, I meant to send that note to Dennis only. Obviously it is up
for each product, proprietary and open source, to determine the
optimal trade-off between real-world interoperability and standards
purity. If LibreOffice's users are happy with the choices made by the
LibreOffice team, and they don't mind that their documents are flagged
as "corrupt" in MS Office, then no one is to say they are wrong.
However, I think AOO users may benefit from some additional
flexibility here. For example, we could have a configuration flag
that allows them to switch a "MS Office compatibility mode" on or off.
In some cases, such as when they are targeting an ODF-based workflow,
strict conformance with the ODF standard will be the overriding
concern. In other cases, where they are predominately exchanging
documents with MS Office users, compatibility will be more important.
I'd be interested in user feedback whether such a configuration option
would be useful.
-Rob
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Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open
OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 10:03 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
<de...@acm.org> wrote:
> Rob,
>
> I have no idea how get from a catch-22 between ODF 1.2 (latest), ODF 1.2 earlier, and down-level ODF 1.1 consumers that are strict about it (like Microsoft Word 2007/2010) to this outburst about LibreOffice. There is no foundation for that departure into the stratosphere.
>
I have no wish for the ODF standard, like the US Constitution or the
Bible, being used as an excuse to justify stupidity. ODF is a
specification for document exchange. If you are using it in a way
that decreases interoperability then you really need to step back and
ask yourself if your literal interpretation really makes sense.
If you bought a hammer and the instructions had an ambiguous statement
that lead you to think it was asking you to hit yourself in the head
rather than the nail on the head, would you do it? What if it was an
ISO standard? I assume not.
Think of it from the user's perspective. Are they really going to be
satisfied with the argument "The standard told me to do it" when their
documents show up as corrupt in MS Office 2007? I don't think so.
Standards may have errors. User expectations do not, at least not for
any viable software application. And until we have 90% market share
the user will assume that MS Office is correct. Reality sucks. Deal
with it.
-Rob.
> - Dennis
>
> FOR THOSE PLAYING ALONG AT HOME:
>
> True, the situation has been over-simplified and everyone who says not-us presumes it is some other guys instead. But that is not what analysis reveals.
>
> For the record, simple documents written in ODF 1.2 (extended) from the Apache OpenOffice developer build of 3.4.0 have the same down-level interop problem with Microsoft Office. A simple ODF 1.2 (not extended) document from OOo-dev 3.4.0, the last beta produced by Oracle, also has the problem.
>
> A simple test against the Microsoft Word ODF 1.1 consumer with *any* document from *any* of these producers could have detected the problem.
>
> However, a simple document written in ODF 1.2 (not-extended) from OpenOffice.org 3.3.0 (Oracle distribution) does *not* have the down-level interop problem. Which means that, instead, it is in violation of the ODF 1.2 manifest schema, which was changed after anticipatory claiming of ODF 1.2 happened. You will be thrilled to learn that Lotus Symphony 3.0.0 FP3 is in the same boat: Word doesn't flinch, but a current ODF Conformance Checker will.
>
> My money is on those who realize that the schema is not the thing to be slavish about, especially for an inconsequential retro-active provision, if the goal is least friction for interop with their own down-level and other ODF 1.0/1.1 implementations. It is clear that, with the confusion this situation has caused here and in the interop efforts of actual users, the creation of this retro-active provision in ODF 1.2 was a stupid move at the ODF TC. I am embarrassed that I didn't catch it there. Basically Michael Brauer and I are the culprits.
>
> My direct experience with senior LibreOffice developers is that they are acutely aware of changes in ODF 1.2 that are causing needless down-level interop problems and they are attempting to navigate that morass. At Apache OpenOffice the development effort is just getting revivified enough to where some of these same provisions can be dealt with. It would be good to find a common basis for navigating these shoals.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
> Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 12:23
> To: ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
>
> [ ... ]
>
> If a program does not meet user expectations then it is a bug. If you
> want to be compatible with Microsoft Office then you need to play by
> their rules. The existence of standards like ODF and OOXML does not
> change the basic fact that interoperability is hard work. It requires
> testing. It does not happen overnight. It is not merely the result of
> an incantation that begins with the sacred syllables "ISO".
>
> In any case Seeing responses like this from LibreOffice makes be very
> optimistic about the future of Apache OpenOffice. Whatever the cause,
> the fact that LibreOffice ships with this problem shows either a
> woefully inadequate QA program, or total indifference to real world
> requirements. Even testing a single LibreOffice document in Office
> 2007 would have shown this bug. Is that too much to expect?
>
> [ ... ]
>
>
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RE: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
Rob,
I have no idea how get from a catch-22 between ODF 1.2 (latest), ODF 1.2 earlier, and down-level ODF 1.1 consumers that are strict about it (like Microsoft Word 2007/2010) to this outburst about LibreOffice. There is no foundation for that departure into the stratosphere.
- Dennis
FOR THOSE PLAYING ALONG AT HOME:
True, the situation has been over-simplified and everyone who says not-us presumes it is some other guys instead. But that is not what analysis reveals.
For the record, simple documents written in ODF 1.2 (extended) from the Apache OpenOffice developer build of 3.4.0 have the same down-level interop problem with Microsoft Office. A simple ODF 1.2 (not extended) document from OOo-dev 3.4.0, the last beta produced by Oracle, also has the problem.
A simple test against the Microsoft Word ODF 1.1 consumer with *any* document from *any* of these producers could have detected the problem.
However, a simple document written in ODF 1.2 (not-extended) from OpenOffice.org 3.3.0 (Oracle distribution) does *not* have the down-level interop problem. Which means that, instead, it is in violation of the ODF 1.2 manifest schema, which was changed after anticipatory claiming of ODF 1.2 happened. You will be thrilled to learn that Lotus Symphony 3.0.0 FP3 is in the same boat: Word doesn't flinch, but a current ODF Conformance Checker will.
My money is on those who realize that the schema is not the thing to be slavish about, especially for an inconsequential retro-active provision, if the goal is least friction for interop with their own down-level and other ODF 1.0/1.1 implementations. It is clear that, with the confusion this situation has caused here and in the interop efforts of actual users, the creation of this retro-active provision in ODF 1.2 was a stupid move at the ODF TC. I am embarrassed that I didn't catch it there. Basically Michael Brauer and I are the culprits.
My direct experience with senior LibreOffice developers is that they are acutely aware of changes in ODF 1.2 that are causing needless down-level interop problems and they are attempting to navigate that morass. At Apache OpenOffice the development effort is just getting revivified enough to where some of these same provisions can be dealt with. It would be good to find a common basis for navigating these shoals.
-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 12:23
To: ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
[ ... ]
If a program does not meet user expectations then it is a bug. If you
want to be compatible with Microsoft Office then you need to play by
their rules. The existence of standards like ODF and OOXML does not
change the basic fact that interoperability is hard work. It requires
testing. It does not happen overnight. It is not merely the result of
an incantation that begins with the sacred syllables "ISO".
In any case Seeing responses like this from LibreOffice makes be very
optimistic about the future of Apache OpenOffice. Whatever the cause,
the fact that LibreOffice ships with this problem shows either a
woefully inadequate QA program, or total indifference to real world
requirements. Even testing a single LibreOffice document in Office
2007 would have shown this bug. Is that too much to expect?
[ ... ]
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Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to
open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
Posted by Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>.
On 17/01/2012 floris v wrote:
> OOo, all versions since I_don't_know, have the same annoying bug in the
> export filter to Word (and import from Word as well, I suppose). It's in
> converting the page style if the _Next page_ property of the page style
> definition is another page style, like in the First page, where the next
> page is set to Default. Every single time you convert a file with such
> page styles in it, the different header/footer definitions will
> disappear and you get a file with the same headers/footers for the
> entire document.
For reference, this is likely tracked as
https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=73533
(as others already noted, this bug is unrelated to ODF 1.2 or to the
rest of this discussion).
Regards,
Andrea.
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Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to
open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
Posted by floris v <fl...@gmail.com>.
--
Seriously, before you make derisive comments on another software
product, you should first make sure that you can't be blamed for exactly
the same thing.
OOo, all versions since I_don't_know, have the same annoying bug in the
export filter to Word (and import from Word as well, I suppose). It's in
converting the page style if the _Next page_ property of the page style
definition is another page style, like in the First page, where the next
page is set to Default. Every single time you convert a file with such
page styles in it, the different header/footer definitions will
disappear and you get a file with the same headers/footers for the
entire document. And not because Word doesn't have a way to get the same
effect - it's the Continuous section break that you can insert anywhere
in a page but it will take effect at the start of the next page. It has
been around since at the latest Word 97, but I think it was there even
earlier. Anyone who converts a file from OOo to Word van easily spot
this bug, and it's often reported at the community forum. But the
developers probably think that this bug is trivial.
The attachment is a Word file (made with Word 2002). The second page
gets a header with the text "This doesn’t show on page 1." It could read
as well: "This doesn’t show in any current version of OOo or LO."
floris v aka Peter
Op 16-1-2012 21:23, Rob Weir schreef:
> On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 4:14 PM, Simon Phipps<si...@webmink.com> wrote:
>> Hi Dan,
>>
>> Your easy conclusion that LibreOffice is at fault is wrong. Please see
>> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=44498
>> and
>> https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=115789
>>
>> You'll see that this is indeed a reflection of a bug in MS Word that is avoided in OOo because of a bug in OOo 3.3 ("Files from OpenOffice.org Writer fail the validation at the OpenOffice validation site allegedly because the manifest:manifest (root) tag in the META-INF/manifest.xml file lacks a version attribute.")
>>
>> Given this is a bug in MS Word, it is best avoided both in LibreOffice and in a future AOO release by using a format that MS Word handles correctly>such as .DOC or ODF 1.1, unless Microsoft issues a patch.
> If a program does not meet user expectations then it is a bug. If you
> want to be compatible with Microsoft Office then you need to play by
> their rules. The existence of standards like ODF and OOXML does not
> change the basic fact that interoperability is hard work. It requires
> testing. It does not happen overnight. It is not merely the result of
> an incantation that begins with the sacred syllables "ISO".
>
> In any case Seeing responses like this from LibreOffice makes be very
> optimistic about the future of Apache OpenOffice. Whatever the cause,
> the fact that LibreOffice ships with this problem shows either a
> woefully inadequate QA program, or total indifference to real world
> requirements. Even testing a single LibreOffice document in Office
> 2007 would have shown this bug. Is that too much to expect?
>
> And if you prefer written specifications to testing, there is always
> Microsoft's Implementation Notes on Office 2007, where they spell out
> in great details what they do and do not support in ODF 1,1:
>
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ee908651%28v=office.12%29.aspx
>
> LibreOffice could have prevented this bug by checking there as well.
>
> -Rob
>
>
Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
Posted by Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>.
On Jan 19, 2012, at 11:33 AM, Simon Phipps wrote:
>
> On 19 Jan 2012, at 19:19, Rob Weir wrote:
>
>> blaming and criticizing others.
>
> Please, please, just stop.
I was excited to see 4 new user emails just now, but ...
+1 - I believe that Dennis attempted a constructive and humble approach to this edge case.
I don't think arguing which project has a better approach to edge cases will gets us very far and it is likely to turn off the users.
I think that AOO will attempt to have the intent of the law approach to interoperability. The TDF and LO have their own approach and that is their business. It only hurts AOO to draw comparisons with LO at this time.
For a humorous break - Monty Python's Argument Clinic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y
Regards,
Dave
>
> S.
>
>
>
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Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to
open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
Posted by Debbie Shields <de...@debbieshields.com>.
Yes, please stop. I just joined and all I've seen so far is bickering.
On 1/19/2012 12:21 PM, drew wrote:
> On Thu, 2012-01-19 at 19:33 +0000, Simon Phipps wrote:
>> On 19 Jan 2012, at 19:19, Rob Weir wrote:
>>
>>> blaming and criticizing others.
>> Please, please, just stop.
>>
>> S.
> How about you both stop and just drop this.
>
> Thanks
>
> Drew Jensen
>
>
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Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to
open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
Posted by drew <dr...@baseanswers.com>.
On Thu, 2012-01-19 at 19:33 +0000, Simon Phipps wrote:
> On 19 Jan 2012, at 19:19, Rob Weir wrote:
>
> > blaming and criticizing others.
>
> Please, please, just stop.
>
> S.
How about you both stop and just drop this.
Thanks
Drew Jensen
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Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
Posted by Simon Phipps <si...@webmink.com>.
On 19 Jan 2012, at 19:19, Rob Weir wrote:
> blaming and criticizing others.
Please, please, just stop.
S.
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Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open
OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 2:02 PM, Simon Phipps <si...@webmink.com> wrote:
>
> On 19 Jan 2012, at 18:58, Rob Weir wrote:
>
>> The feedback they give
>> is extremely valuable, and I in no way will accept any attempt to mute
>> them.
>
> That's not what's happened, Rob. Instead, I'm trying hard to get you to stop your campaigning on this list. Once again, I request that you desist.
>
Simon, if you want to write up and propose a conduct code for this
list, you are welcome to do that and post it on ooo-dev where we can
discuss, and the PPMC can decide if we want to adopt it. Until then
as list moderator you have a ability to help filter the spam that
Apache SpamAssasin misses, and to help confused people unsubscribe,
but nothing more. As a list participant, like everyone else here,
I'd also encourage you to contribute to the resolution of user issues
rather than blaming and criticizing others.
> S.
>
>
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Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
Posted by Simon Phipps <si...@webmink.com>.
On 19 Jan 2012, at 18:58, Rob Weir wrote:
> The feedback they give
> is extremely valuable, and I in no way will accept any attempt to mute
> them.
That's not what's happened, Rob. Instead, I'm trying hard to get you to stop your campaigning on this list. Once again, I request that you desist.
S.
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Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open
OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 9:19 AM, Simon Phipps <si...@webmink.com> wrote:
>
> On 17 Jan 2012, at 02:23, Rob Weir wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 8:04 PM, Simon Phipps <si...@webmink.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 16 Jan 2012, at 20:23, Rob Weir wrote:
>>>>
>>>> In any case Seeing responses like this from LibreOffice makes be very
>>>> optimistic about the future of Apache OpenOffice.
>>>
>>> I encourage you as a moderator of this list not to continue making divisive statements like this.
>>>
>>
>> List moderators filter spam. But otherwise they have as much a right
>> to express their opinions as any other member on the list. Even
>> opinions that differ from yours.
>
> Actually I was speaking as a list moderator addressing undesirable list traffic, as well as to a fellow list moderator creating that traffic. While you're obviously entitled to whatever opinions you want, I suggest that your continued negativity about a peer project are out of place on this user list and once again invite you to stop.
>
This is a user list, a list where users come to ask questions, give
feedback and report bugs, among other things. The feedback they give
is extremely valuable, and I in no way will accept any attempt to mute
them. This is not a criticism-free zone. This is not a list where we
ask participants not to say anything unless it is good news. Users do
us a great service when they tell us where we've gone wrong, and I
intend to preserve this list as a way for users to do this, without
fear that the thought police will come after them and tell them they
are being divisive. We can be honest, blunt, direct, as well as be
civil.
You and other LibreOffice participants might reflect on why your user
came to this list to report his issue. Was there some reason he did
not feel comfortable reporting this issue to the LibreOffice list?
In any case, the failure reported by the user -- that LibreOffice
documents are reported as corrupt in MS Office 2007 -- is a real
issue. There are several good ways of dealing with users who report a
real issue:
1) Tell them, "Thanks for the bug report. It sounds serious, we'll investigate"
2) Tell them, "Thanks for the bug report. We're aware of the issue
and are investigating"
3) Tell them, "Thanks for the bug report. We're aware of the issue.
It will be fixed in version X.Y"
4) Tell them, "Thanks for the bug report. You should upgrade to
version X.Y, where this bug is already fixed".
There are also several bad ways of dealing with users who report a real issue:
5) Blame it on MS Word, which you did on January 13th,
6) Blame it on ODF, which was the 2nd approach used to divert responsibility
7) Blame it on me, which appears to be the 3rd approach to blow smoke:
http://people.gnome.org/~michael/blog/2012-01-18.html
So again, if this is the way LibreOffice treats bug reports -- blame
everyone else -- then I am extremely optimistic about the prospects
for Apache OpenOffice. This is not rocket science. It is a one-line
fix. What do you think your users think when they see you treating
with such hostility a simple bug report?
-Rob
> S.
>
>
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Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
Posted by Simon Phipps <si...@webmink.com>.
On 17 Jan 2012, at 02:23, Rob Weir wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 8:04 PM, Simon Phipps <si...@webmink.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 16 Jan 2012, at 20:23, Rob Weir wrote:
>>>
>>> In any case Seeing responses like this from LibreOffice makes be very
>>> optimistic about the future of Apache OpenOffice.
>>
>> I encourage you as a moderator of this list not to continue making divisive statements like this.
>>
>
> List moderators filter spam. But otherwise they have as much a right
> to express their opinions as any other member on the list. Even
> opinions that differ from yours.
Actually I was speaking as a list moderator addressing undesirable list traffic, as well as to a fellow list moderator creating that traffic. While you're obviously entitled to whatever opinions you want, I suggest that your continued negativity about a peer project are out of place on this user list and once again invite you to stop.
S.
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Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open
OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 8:04 PM, Simon Phipps <si...@webmink.com> wrote:
>
> On 16 Jan 2012, at 20:23, Rob Weir wrote:
>>
>> In any case Seeing responses like this from LibreOffice makes be very
>> optimistic about the future of Apache OpenOffice.
>
> I encourage you as a moderator of this list not to continue making divisive statements like this.
>
List moderators filter spam. But otherwise they have as much a right
to express their opinions as any other member on the list. Even
opinions that differ from yours.
> Thanks
>
> S.
>
>
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Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
Posted by Simon Phipps <si...@webmink.com>.
On 16 Jan 2012, at 20:23, Rob Weir wrote:
>
> In any case Seeing responses like this from LibreOffice makes be very
> optimistic about the future of Apache OpenOffice.
I encourage you as a moderator of this list not to continue making divisive statements like this.
Thanks
S.
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Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open
OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
Posted by Simon Phipps <si...@webmink.com>.
--
Simon Phipps
{Terse? Mobile!}
On Jan 16, 2012 8:23 PM, "Rob Weir" <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 4:14 PM, Simon Phipps <si...@webmink.com> wrote:
> > Hi Dan,
> >
> > Your easy conclusion that LibreOffice is at fault is wrong. Please see
> > https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=44498
> > and
> > https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=115789
> >
> > You'll see that this is indeed a reflection of a bug in MS Word that is
> avoided in OOo because of a bug in OOo 3.3 ("Files from OpenOffice.org
> Writer fail the validation at the OpenOffice validation site allegedly
> because the manifest:manifest (root) tag in the META-INF/manifest.xml file
> lacks a version attribute.")
> >
> > Given this is a bug in MS Word, it is best avoided both in LibreOffice
> and in a future AOO release by using a format that MS Word handles
> correctly >such as .DOC or ODF 1.1, unless Microsoft issues a patch.
>
> If a program does not meet user expectations then it is a bug. If you
> want to be compatible with Microsoft Office then you need to play by
> their rules. The existence of standards like ODF and OOXML does not
> change the basic fact that interoperability is hard work. It requires
> testing. It does not happen overnight. It is not merely the result of
> an incantation that begins with the sacred syllables "ISO".
>
> In any case Seeing responses like this from LibreOffice makes be very
> optimistic about the future of Apache OpenOffice. Whatever the cause,
> the fact that LibreOffice ships with this problem shows either a
> woefully inadequate QA program, or total indifference to real world
> requirements. Even testing a single LibreOffice document in Office
> 2007 would have shown this bug. Is that too much to expect?
>
> And if you prefer written specifications to testing, there is always
> Microsoft's Implementation Notes on Office 2007, where they spell out
> in great details what they do and do not support in ODF 1,1:
>
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ee908651%28v=office.12%29.aspx
>
> LibreOffice could have prevented this bug by checking there as well.
>
> -Rob
>
> > S.
> >
> > On 13 Jan 2012, at 12:42, Dan Lewis wrote:
> >
> >> From what you wrote, there is no bug in OOo. OOo clearly creates
> >> documents that Word 2007 can read. The problem is with LibreOffice: it
> >> is the one with the bug. OOo and LibreOffice are not the same.
> >> LibreOffice is a fork of OOo meaning it has the same basic computer
> >> code, but it also has some computer code that differs from OOo. The bug
> >> seems to be located in the computer code that differs from OOo.
> >> If you want to use LibreOffice when sending documents to people
> >> having Word 2007, you will need to wait until LibreOffice fixes the bug.
> >> However, as you pointed out, you can use OOo 3.3.3 now. Why not continue
> >> using OOo?
> >>
> >> --Dan
> >>
> >> On Fri, 2012-01-13 at 13:14 +0100, Jacek wrote:
> >>> Word 2007 has no issue to open OOo created ODF 1.2 extended file. As I
> was told that it's because of a bug of OOo, I fear that in the future the
> bug will be fixed and the possibility of opening the OOo file when default
> format is used will be lost (as it is the case with LibOffice, today).
> >>>
> >>> I would like to recommend to some Association members I work with, to
> use Open Office, but they are not the ones who can change OOo settings or
> play with output file format. For me, it is a mean to introduce in their
> environment some "libre" software. But, it will work only and only, if they
> have no issue when exchanging the files with external world.
> >>> For the time being they use Word, but as they have to upgrade their
> computers, I planned to recommend, at first LibOffice. As I found the
> LibOffice issue with word, I tried OOo.
> >>> I was happy that there were no issue with word to open OOo 3.3.3
> created file till the moment I was told that this is a bug in OOo and that
> this bug will be fixed...
> >>>
> >>> Bregs
> >>>
> >>> Jacek
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Message d'origine-----
> >>> De : Dan Lewis [mailto:elderdanlewis@gmail.com]
> >>> Envoyé : vendredi 13 janvier 2012 12:56
> >>> À : ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
> >>> Objet : Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility
> to open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, 2012-01-13 at 09:14 +0100, Jacek wrote:
> >>>> Hello,
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I tried to open ODF 1.2 extended format file generated by LibOffice
> >>>> using Word 2007 and this didn't work properly.
> >>>>
> >>>> I tried OOo 3.3.3 and I had no issue to open ODF 1.2 extended file
> >>>> generated by it using word.
> >>>>
> >>>> Someone told me that I was successful in opening OOo created file in
> >>>> word because of a bug in OOo. And he added that this bug would be
> >>>> fixed in the future.
> >>>>
> >>>> Is this statement correct? Am I able to open OOo created file because
> >>>> of bug? If so, is this "bug", which allows Word 2007 to open OOo
> >>>> generated file, going to be fix, i.e. is OOo going to generate the
> >>>> files, which will be difficult to open with Word or other Microsoft
> Office modules?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Is this the right forum to ask this question? If not, please let me
> >>>> know where it should be asked.
> >>>
> >>>> Best regards
> >>>
> >>>> Jacek
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> The problem may be with Word 2007. ODF 1.2 extended was created
> after Word 2007 so Word 2007 does not know how to handle the changes made
> when the open document format went from ODF 1.1 to ODF 1.2 extended. There
> has been some comments on this mailing list earlier about MS Office not
> handling ODF 1.2 extended.
> >>> Work around: open the document in OOo. Change the ODF setting.
> >>> (Tools > Options > Load/Save > General ) Then use save As to save the
> document as ODF 1.0/1.1.
> >>>
> >>> --Dan
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: ooo-users-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >>> For additional commands, e-mail: ooo-users-help@incubator.apache.org
> >>>
> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: ooo-users-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >>> For additional commands, e-mail: ooo-users-help@incubator.apache.org
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: ooo-users-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: ooo-users-help@incubator.apache.org
> >>
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
>
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>
Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open
OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 4:14 PM, Simon Phipps <si...@webmink.com> wrote:
> Hi Dan,
>
> Your easy conclusion that LibreOffice is at fault is wrong. Please see
> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=44498
> and
> https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=115789
>
> You'll see that this is indeed a reflection of a bug in MS Word that is avoided in OOo because of a bug in OOo 3.3 ("Files from OpenOffice.org Writer fail the validation at the OpenOffice validation site allegedly because the manifest:manifest (root) tag in the META-INF/manifest.xml file lacks a version attribute.")
>
> Given this is a bug in MS Word, it is best avoided both in LibreOffice and in a future AOO release by using a format that MS Word handles correctly >such as .DOC or ODF 1.1, unless Microsoft issues a patch.
If a program does not meet user expectations then it is a bug. If you
want to be compatible with Microsoft Office then you need to play by
their rules. The existence of standards like ODF and OOXML does not
change the basic fact that interoperability is hard work. It requires
testing. It does not happen overnight. It is not merely the result of
an incantation that begins with the sacred syllables "ISO".
In any case Seeing responses like this from LibreOffice makes be very
optimistic about the future of Apache OpenOffice. Whatever the cause,
the fact that LibreOffice ships with this problem shows either a
woefully inadequate QA program, or total indifference to real world
requirements. Even testing a single LibreOffice document in Office
2007 would have shown this bug. Is that too much to expect?
And if you prefer written specifications to testing, there is always
Microsoft's Implementation Notes on Office 2007, where they spell out
in great details what they do and do not support in ODF 1,1:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ee908651%28v=office.12%29.aspx
LibreOffice could have prevented this bug by checking there as well.
-Rob
> S.
>
> On 13 Jan 2012, at 12:42, Dan Lewis wrote:
>
>> From what you wrote, there is no bug in OOo. OOo clearly creates
>> documents that Word 2007 can read. The problem is with LibreOffice: it
>> is the one with the bug. OOo and LibreOffice are not the same.
>> LibreOffice is a fork of OOo meaning it has the same basic computer
>> code, but it also has some computer code that differs from OOo. The bug
>> seems to be located in the computer code that differs from OOo.
>> If you want to use LibreOffice when sending documents to people
>> having Word 2007, you will need to wait until LibreOffice fixes the bug.
>> However, as you pointed out, you can use OOo 3.3.3 now. Why not continue
>> using OOo?
>>
>> --Dan
>>
>> On Fri, 2012-01-13 at 13:14 +0100, Jacek wrote:
>>> Word 2007 has no issue to open OOo created ODF 1.2 extended file. As I was told that it's because of a bug of OOo, I fear that in the future the bug will be fixed and the possibility of opening the OOo file when default format is used will be lost (as it is the case with LibOffice, today).
>>>
>>> I would like to recommend to some Association members I work with, to use Open Office, but they are not the ones who can change OOo settings or play with output file format. For me, it is a mean to introduce in their environment some "libre" software. But, it will work only and only, if they have no issue when exchanging the files with external world.
>>> For the time being they use Word, but as they have to upgrade their computers, I planned to recommend, at first LibOffice. As I found the LibOffice issue with word, I tried OOo.
>>> I was happy that there were no issue with word to open OOo 3.3.3 created file till the moment I was told that this is a bug in OOo and that this bug will be fixed...
>>>
>>> Bregs
>>>
>>> Jacek
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>> De : Dan Lewis [mailto:elderdanlewis@gmail.com]
>>> Envoyé : vendredi 13 janvier 2012 12:56
>>> À : ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
>>> Objet : Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
>>>
>>> On Fri, 2012-01-13 at 09:14 +0100, Jacek wrote:
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I tried to open ODF 1.2 extended format file generated by LibOffice
>>>> using Word 2007 and this didn't work properly.
>>>>
>>>> I tried OOo 3.3.3 and I had no issue to open ODF 1.2 extended file
>>>> generated by it using word.
>>>>
>>>> Someone told me that I was successful in opening OOo created file in
>>>> word because of a bug in OOo. And he added that this bug would be
>>>> fixed in the future.
>>>>
>>>> Is this statement correct? Am I able to open OOo created file because
>>>> of bug? If so, is this "bug", which allows Word 2007 to open OOo
>>>> generated file, going to be fix, i.e. is OOo going to generate the
>>>> files, which will be difficult to open with Word or other Microsoft Office modules?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Is this the right forum to ask this question? If not, please let me
>>>> know where it should be asked.
>>>
>>>> Best regards
>>>
>>>> Jacek
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The problem may be with Word 2007. ODF 1.2 extended was created after Word 2007 so Word 2007 does not know how to handle the changes made when the open document format went from ODF 1.1 to ODF 1.2 extended. There has been some comments on this mailing list earlier about MS Office not handling ODF 1.2 extended.
>>> Work around: open the document in OOo. Change the ODF setting.
>>> (Tools > Options > Load/Save > General ) Then use save As to save the document as ODF 1.0/1.1.
>>>
>>> --Dan
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: ooo-users-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: ooo-users-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: ooo-users-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: ooo-users-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
>
>
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Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
Posted by Simon Phipps <si...@webmink.com>.
Hi Dan,
Your easy conclusion that LibreOffice is at fault is wrong. Please see
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=44498
and
https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=115789
You'll see that this is indeed a reflection of a bug in MS Word that is avoided in OOo because of a bug in OOo 3.3 ("Files from OpenOffice.org Writer fail the validation at the OpenOffice validation site allegedly because the manifest:manifest (root) tag in the META-INF/manifest.xml file lacks a version attribute.")
Given this is a bug in MS Word, it is best avoided both in LibreOffice and in a future AOO release by using a format that MS Word handles correctly such as .DOC or ODF 1.1, unless Microsoft issues a patch.
S.
On 13 Jan 2012, at 12:42, Dan Lewis wrote:
> From what you wrote, there is no bug in OOo. OOo clearly creates
> documents that Word 2007 can read. The problem is with LibreOffice: it
> is the one with the bug. OOo and LibreOffice are not the same.
> LibreOffice is a fork of OOo meaning it has the same basic computer
> code, but it also has some computer code that differs from OOo. The bug
> seems to be located in the computer code that differs from OOo.
> If you want to use LibreOffice when sending documents to people
> having Word 2007, you will need to wait until LibreOffice fixes the bug.
> However, as you pointed out, you can use OOo 3.3.3 now. Why not continue
> using OOo?
>
> --Dan
>
> On Fri, 2012-01-13 at 13:14 +0100, Jacek wrote:
>> Word 2007 has no issue to open OOo created ODF 1.2 extended file. As I was told that it's because of a bug of OOo, I fear that in the future the bug will be fixed and the possibility of opening the OOo file when default format is used will be lost (as it is the case with LibOffice, today).
>>
>> I would like to recommend to some Association members I work with, to use Open Office, but they are not the ones who can change OOo settings or play with output file format. For me, it is a mean to introduce in their environment some "libre" software. But, it will work only and only, if they have no issue when exchanging the files with external world.
>> For the time being they use Word, but as they have to upgrade their computers, I planned to recommend, at first LibOffice. As I found the LibOffice issue with word, I tried OOo.
>> I was happy that there were no issue with word to open OOo 3.3.3 created file till the moment I was told that this is a bug in OOo and that this bug will be fixed...
>>
>> Bregs
>>
>> Jacek
>>
>>
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : Dan Lewis [mailto:elderdanlewis@gmail.com]
>> Envoyé : vendredi 13 janvier 2012 12:56
>> À : ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
>> Objet : Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
>>
>> On Fri, 2012-01-13 at 09:14 +0100, Jacek wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I tried to open ODF 1.2 extended format file generated by LibOffice
>>> using Word 2007 and this didn't work properly.
>>>
>>> I tried OOo 3.3.3 and I had no issue to open ODF 1.2 extended file
>>> generated by it using word.
>>>
>>> Someone told me that I was successful in opening OOo created file in
>>> word because of a bug in OOo. And he added that this bug would be
>>> fixed in the future.
>>>
>>> Is this statement correct? Am I able to open OOo created file because
>>> of bug? If so, is this "bug", which allows Word 2007 to open OOo
>>> generated file, going to be fix, i.e. is OOo going to generate the
>>> files, which will be difficult to open with Word or other Microsoft Office modules?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Is this the right forum to ask this question? If not, please let me
>>> know where it should be asked.
>>
>>> Best regards
>>
>>> Jacek
>>>
>>
>>
>> The problem may be with Word 2007. ODF 1.2 extended was created after Word 2007 so Word 2007 does not know how to handle the changes made when the open document format went from ODF 1.1 to ODF 1.2 extended. There has been some comments on this mailing list earlier about MS Office not handling ODF 1.2 extended.
>> Work around: open the document in OOo. Change the ODF setting.
>> (Tools > Options > Load/Save > General ) Then use save As to save the document as ODF 1.0/1.1.
>>
>> --Dan
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: ooo-users-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: ooo-users-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
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RE: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to
open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
Posted by Dan Lewis <el...@gmail.com>.
From what you wrote, there is no bug in OOo. OOo clearly creates
documents that Word 2007 can read. The problem is with LibreOffice: it
is the one with the bug. OOo and LibreOffice are not the same.
LibreOffice is a fork of OOo meaning it has the same basic computer
code, but it also has some computer code that differs from OOo. The bug
seems to be located in the computer code that differs from OOo.
If you want to use LibreOffice when sending documents to people
having Word 2007, you will need to wait until LibreOffice fixes the bug.
However, as you pointed out, you can use OOo 3.3.3 now. Why not continue
using OOo?
--Dan
On Fri, 2012-01-13 at 13:14 +0100, Jacek wrote:
> Word 2007 has no issue to open OOo created ODF 1.2 extended file. As I was told that it's because of a bug of OOo, I fear that in the future the bug will be fixed and the possibility of opening the OOo file when default format is used will be lost (as it is the case with LibOffice, today).
>
> I would like to recommend to some Association members I work with, to use Open Office, but they are not the ones who can change OOo settings or play with output file format. For me, it is a mean to introduce in their environment some "libre" software. But, it will work only and only, if they have no issue when exchanging the files with external world.
> For the time being they use Word, but as they have to upgrade their computers, I planned to recommend, at first LibOffice. As I found the LibOffice issue with word, I tried OOo.
> I was happy that there were no issue with word to open OOo 3.3.3 created file till the moment I was told that this is a bug in OOo and that this bug will be fixed...
>
> Bregs
>
> Jacek
>
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Dan Lewis [mailto:elderdanlewis@gmail.com]
> Envoyé : vendredi 13 janvier 2012 12:56
> À : ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
> Objet : Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
>
> On Fri, 2012-01-13 at 09:14 +0100, Jacek wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> >
> >
> > I tried to open ODF 1.2 extended format file generated by LibOffice
> > using Word 2007 and this didn't work properly.
> >
> > I tried OOo 3.3.3 and I had no issue to open ODF 1.2 extended file
> > generated by it using word.
> >
> > Someone told me that I was successful in opening OOo created file in
> > word because of a bug in OOo. And he added that this bug would be
> > fixed in the future.
> >
> > Is this statement correct? Am I able to open OOo created file because
> > of bug? If so, is this "bug", which allows Word 2007 to open OOo
> > generated file, going to be fix, i.e. is OOo going to generate the
> > files, which will be difficult to open with Word or other Microsoft Office modules?
> >
> >
> >
> > Is this the right forum to ask this question? If not, please let me
> > know where it should be asked.
>
> > Best regards
>
> > Jacek
> >
>
>
> The problem may be with Word 2007. ODF 1.2 extended was created after Word 2007 so Word 2007 does not know how to handle the changes made when the open document format went from ODF 1.1 to ODF 1.2 extended. There has been some comments on this mailing list earlier about MS Office not handling ODF 1.2 extended.
> Work around: open the document in OOo. Change the ODF setting.
> (Tools > Options > Load/Save > General ) Then use save As to save the document as ODF 1.0/1.1.
>
> --Dan
>
>
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RE: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
Posted by Jacek <ja...@9online.fr>.
Word 2007 has no issue to open OOo created ODF 1.2 extended file. As I was told that it's because of a bug of OOo, I fear that in the future the bug will be fixed and the possibility of opening the OOo file when default format is used will be lost (as it is the case with LibOffice, today).
I would like to recommend to some Association members I work with, to use Open Office, but they are not the ones who can change OOo settings or play with output file format. For me, it is a mean to introduce in their environment some "libre" software. But, it will work only and only, if they have no issue when exchanging the files with external world.
For the time being they use Word, but as they have to upgrade their computers, I planned to recommend, at first LibOffice. As I found the LibOffice issue with word, I tried OOo.
I was happy that there were no issue with word to open OOo 3.3.3 created file till the moment I was told that this is a bug in OOo and that this bug will be fixed...
Bregs
Jacek
-----Message d'origine-----
De : Dan Lewis [mailto:elderdanlewis@gmail.com]
Envoyé : vendredi 13 janvier 2012 12:56
À : ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
Objet : Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
On Fri, 2012-01-13 at 09:14 +0100, Jacek wrote:
> Hello,
>
>
>
> I tried to open ODF 1.2 extended format file generated by LibOffice
> using Word 2007 and this didn't work properly.
>
> I tried OOo 3.3.3 and I had no issue to open ODF 1.2 extended file
> generated by it using word.
>
> Someone told me that I was successful in opening OOo created file in
> word because of a bug in OOo. And he added that this bug would be
> fixed in the future.
>
> Is this statement correct? Am I able to open OOo created file because
> of bug? If so, is this "bug", which allows Word 2007 to open OOo
> generated file, going to be fix, i.e. is OOo going to generate the
> files, which will be difficult to open with Word or other Microsoft Office modules?
>
>
>
> Is this the right forum to ask this question? If not, please let me
> know where it should be asked.
> Best regards
> Jacek
>
The problem may be with Word 2007. ODF 1.2 extended was created after Word 2007 so Word 2007 does not know how to handle the changes made when the open document format went from ODF 1.1 to ODF 1.2 extended. There has been some comments on this mailing list earlier about MS Office not handling ODF 1.2 extended.
Work around: open the document in OOo. Change the ODF setting.
(Tools > Options > Load/Save > General ) Then use save As to save the document as ODF 1.0/1.1.
--Dan
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Re: OOo, ODF 1.2 extended format and Word: is the possibility to
open OOo generated file by word ed as bug?
Posted by Dan Lewis <el...@gmail.com>.
On Fri, 2012-01-13 at 09:14 +0100, Jacek wrote:
> Hello,
>
>
>
> I tried to open ODF 1.2 extended format file generated by LibOffice using
> Word 2007 and this didn't work properly.
>
> I tried OOo 3.3.3 and I had no issue to open ODF 1.2 extended file
> generated by it using word.
>
> Someone told me that I was successful in opening OOo created file in word
> because of a bug in OOo. And he added that this bug would be fixed in the
> future.
>
> Is this statement correct? Am I able to open OOo created file because of
> bug? If so, is this "bug", which allows Word 2007 to open OOo generated
> file, going to be fix, i.e. is OOo going to generate the files, which will
> be difficult to open with Word or other Microsoft Office modules?
>
>
>
> Is this the right forum to ask this question? If not, please let me know
> where it should be asked.
> Best regards
> Jacek
>
The problem may be with Word 2007. ODF 1.2 extended was created
after Word 2007 so Word 2007 does not know how to handle the changes
made when the open document format went from ODF 1.1 to ODF 1.2
extended. There has been some comments on this mailing list earlier
about MS Office not handling ODF 1.2 extended.
Work around: open the document in OOo. Change the ODF setting.
(Tools > Options > Load/Save > General ) Then use save As to save the
document as ODF 1.0/1.1.
--Dan
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