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Posted to dev@perl.apache.org by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org> on 2004/12/24 01:58:01 UTC
[mp2] PAUSE indexer issues
The PAUSE indexer report requires that we do the following:
Index: META.yml
===================================================================
--- META.yml (revision 123262)
+++ META.yml (working copy)
@@ -7,3 +7,10 @@
- Apache-Test
package:
- C::Preprocessed
+ - Apache
+ - Apache::Constants
+ - Apache::File
+ - Apache::SIG
+ - Apache::Server
+ - Apache::Table
+ - Apache::Util
Those are all coming from packages found in compat.pm
But I'm not sure what to do about these:
module: Apache::Connection
version: undef
in file: mod_perl-2.0.0-RC2-XMas/lib/Apache/compat.pm
status: Not indexed because mod_perl-1.29/Connection/Connection.pm
in G/GO/GOZER/mod_perl-1.29.tar.gz has a higher version
number (1.00)
We do have a real Apache::Connection in mp2 but it's autogenerated. In
fact none of the autogenerated packages is indexed. So this could be a
problem. Ideas?
module: Apache::PerlSections
version: 0.01
in file: mod_perl-2.0.0-RC2-XMas/lib/Apache/PerlSections.pm
status: Not indexed because
mod_perl-1.29/lib/Apache/PerlSections.pm in
G/GO/GOZER/mod_perl-1.29.tar.gz has a higher version number
(1.61)
This one clearly needs to have a higher version (2.00?)
--
__________________________________________________________________
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Re: [mp2] PAUSE indexer issues
Posted by Randy Kobes <ra...@theoryx5.uwinnipeg.ca>.
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004, Philippe M. Chiasson wrote:
> No, what I am saying is something similar to Bundles or
> the Provides: keyword of RPMS. A way to tell the CPAN
> indexer that when it's searching for Apache::Connection,
> it should trust that installing mod_perl 2.0 will result
> in that module being installed.
>
> auto-generated: META.yml keyword maybe ?
There is an index: keyword that is to list things that
are to be indexed, but:
- anything not explicitly listed is to be ignored, meaning
everything would have to be included here;
- I'm not sure PAUSE understands this, and even if so, if
it will cope with auto-generated things (although one can
specify a package/namespace for index:, not just a file or
directory).
--
best regards,
randy
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Re: [mp2] PAUSE indexer issues
Posted by "Philippe M. Chiasson" <go...@ectoplasm.org>.
Stas Bekman wrote:
> Philippe M. Chiasson wrote:
>
>>> But I'm not sure what to do about these:
>>>
>>> module: Apache::Connection
>>> version: undef
>>> in file: mod_perl-2.0.0-RC2-XMas/lib/Apache/compat.pm
>>> status: Not indexed because
>>> mod_perl-1.29/Connection/Connection.pm
>>> in G/GO/GOZER/mod_perl-1.29.tar.gz has a higher version
>>> number (1.00)
>>>
>>> We do have a real Apache::Connection in mp2 but it's autogenerated.
>>> In fact none of the autogenerated packages is indexed. So this could
>>> be a problem. Ideas?
>>
>> Is there a way to tell about generated packages thru META.yml?
>> provides: or
>> a keyword as such ?
>
> Even if we could, the file doesn't physically exist, unless we
> autogenerated a dummy file which just declares packages and their
> versions.
No, what I am saying is something similar to Bundles or the Provides:
keyword of RPMS.
A way to tell the CPAN indexer that when it's searching for
Apache::Connection, it should trust that
installing mod_perl 2.0 will result in that module being installed.
auto-generated: META.yml keyword maybe ?
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Philippe M. Chiasson m/gozer\@(apache|cpan|ectoplasm)\.org/ GPG KeyID : 88C3A5A5
http://gozer.ectoplasm.org/ F9BF E0C2 480E 7680 1AE5 3631 CB32 A107 88C3A5A5
Re: [mp2] PAUSE indexer issues
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
Philippe M. Chiasson wrote:
>> But I'm not sure what to do about these:
>>
>> module: Apache::Connection
>> version: undef
>> in file: mod_perl-2.0.0-RC2-XMas/lib/Apache/compat.pm
>> status: Not indexed because mod_perl-1.29/Connection/Connection.pm
>> in G/GO/GOZER/mod_perl-1.29.tar.gz has a higher version
>> number (1.00)
>>
>> We do have a real Apache::Connection in mp2 but it's autogenerated. In
>> fact none of the autogenerated packages is indexed. So this could be a
>> problem. Ideas?
>
>
> Is there a way to tell about generated packages thru META.yml? provides: or
> a keyword as such ?
Even if we could, the file doesn't physically exist, unless we
autogenerated a dummy file which just declares packages and their versions.
--
__________________________________________________________________
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http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide ---> http://perl.apache.org
mailto:stas@stason.org http://use.perl.org http://apacheweek.com
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Re: [mp2] PAUSE indexer issues
Posted by "Philippe M. Chiasson" <go...@ectoplasm.org>.
Stas Bekman wrote:
> The PAUSE indexer report requires that we do the following:
>
> Index: META.yml
> ===================================================================
> --- META.yml (revision 123262)
> +++ META.yml (working copy)
> @@ -7,3 +7,10 @@
> - Apache-Test
> package:
> - C::Preprocessed
> + - Apache
> + - Apache::Constants
> + - Apache::File
> + - Apache::SIG
> + - Apache::Server
> + - Apache::Table
> + - Apache::Util
>
> Those are all coming from packages found in compat.pm
+1
> But I'm not sure what to do about these:
>
> module: Apache::Connection
> version: undef
> in file: mod_perl-2.0.0-RC2-XMas/lib/Apache/compat.pm
> status: Not indexed because mod_perl-1.29/Connection/Connection.pm
> in G/GO/GOZER/mod_perl-1.29.tar.gz has a higher version
> number (1.00)
>
> We do have a real Apache::Connection in mp2 but it's autogenerated. In
> fact none of the autogenerated packages is indexed. So this could be a
> problem. Ideas?
Is there a way to tell about generated packages thru META.yml? provides: or
a keyword as such ?
> module: Apache::PerlSections
> version: 0.01
> in file: mod_perl-2.0.0-RC2-XMas/lib/Apache/PerlSections.pm
> status: Not indexed because
> mod_perl-1.29/lib/Apache/PerlSections.pm in
> G/GO/GOZER/mod_perl-1.29.tar.gz has a higher version number
> (1.61)
>
> This one clearly needs to have a higher version (2.00?)
Yup, or 1.99, but 2.00 should be fine.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Philippe M. Chiasson m/gozer\@(apache|cpan|ectoplasm)\.org/ GPG KeyID : 88C3A5A5
http://gozer.ectoplasm.org/ F9BF E0C2 480E 7680 1AE5 3631 CB32 A107 88C3A5A5
Re: [mp2] PAUSE indexer issues
Posted by "Randal L. Schwartz" <me...@stonehenge.com>.
>>>>> "Stas" == Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org> writes:
Stas> why not? Why mp1 should be favored above mp2? mp2 is here to stay, mp1
Stas> is there to go. So if PAUSE doesn't want to index both, it should be
Stas> mp2, IMHO.
Stas, you keep saying this enough, and you might eventually believe it,
but you are very wrong here.
mp1 will be solidly in use for at least another year after mp2 goes
final. Especially considering that things aren't trivially upward
compatible, you also will have machines that have *both* installed to
perform the changework necessary for migration.
You *must* provide a way for coexistance, keeping in mind the entire
toolchain that expects one @INC per Perl installation: PAUSE indexing,
CPAN installation tools, perldoc, and manpages. You can't ask the world
to change just to accomodate your mistaken assumption that mp2 is a drop-in
replacement for mp1, because it's not.
The current "use Apache2" solution will not fly. See my note "use
Apache2 considered harmful" on P5P.
--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<me...@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
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Re: [mp2] PAUSE indexer issues
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
Salve J Nilsen wrote:
>
> Suddenly, Stas Bekman uttered:
>
>>
>> Apache::VMonitor requires Apache-Scoreboard. There are two different
>> Apache-Scoreboard version on CPAN. If Apache-Scoreboard-2.02 is not
>> indexed, Apache::VMonitor for mp2 can't automatically satisfy its
>> prerequisites.
>
>
> Would the following be a possible solution path?
>
> 1. If possible, retract Apache-Scoreboard-2.02 from CPAN
> 2. Update the MP1 version of Apache::Scoreboard package to include _both_
> MP1 and MP2-specific APIs (e.g. Apache::Scoreboard::MP1 and
> Apache::Scoreboard::MP2 modules.)
No. I've answered this before. Besides the maintenance headache this will
enforce users of both versions to upgrade when one of the generations
makes a new release.
> 3. Make it possible to specify which Apache::Scoreboard API one would
> like to use, and optionally do some rudimentary checks (e.g. check for
> $ENV{MOD_PERL} or equivalent,) and then inherit from the correct
> module.
I repeat again: It is the same user API.
> 4. Do the same with other modules with this kind of namespace problem...
>
>
> - Salve, shooting in the dark.
>
--
__________________________________________________________________
Stas Bekman JAm_pH ------> Just Another mod_perl Hacker
http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide ---> http://perl.apache.org
mailto:stas@stason.org http://use.perl.org http://apacheweek.com
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Re: [mp2] PAUSE indexer issues
Posted by Salve J Nilsen <sj...@pvv.org>.
Suddenly, Stas Bekman uttered:
>
> Apache::VMonitor requires Apache-Scoreboard. There are two different
> Apache-Scoreboard version on CPAN. If Apache-Scoreboard-2.02 is not
> indexed, Apache::VMonitor for mp2 can't automatically satisfy its
> prerequisites.
Would the following be a possible solution path?
1. If possible, retract Apache-Scoreboard-2.02 from CPAN
2. Update the MP1 version of Apache::Scoreboard package to include _both_
MP1 and MP2-specific APIs (e.g. Apache::Scoreboard::MP1 and
Apache::Scoreboard::MP2 modules.)
3. Make it possible to specify which Apache::Scoreboard API one would
like to use, and optionally do some rudimentary checks (e.g. check for
$ENV{MOD_PERL} or equivalent,) and then inherit from the correct
module.
4. Do the same with other modules with this kind of namespace problem...
- Salve, shooting in the dark.
--
#!/usr/bin/perl
sub AUTOLOAD{$AUTOLOAD=~/.*::(\d+)/;seek(DATA,$1,0);print# Salve Joshua Nilsen
getc DATA}$"="'};&{'";@_=unpack("C*",unpack("u*",':4@,$'.# <sj...@foo.no>
'2!--"5-(50P%$PL,!0X354UC-PP%/0\`'."\n"));eval "&{'@_'}"; __END__ is near! :)
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Re: [mp2] PAUSE indexer issues
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
Randy Kobes wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Dec 2004, Stas Bekman wrote:
>
>
>>Randy Kobes wrote:
>
> [ ... ]
>
>>>In a similar spirit to the provision of mp2doc as a
>>>solution to the problem of using 'perldoc' under mp2,
>>>I'm wondering (out loud) if it might hasten an overall
>>>solution to tbe CPAN/CPANPLUS problem by addressing it
>>>initially just within mp2 itself. That is, have PAUSE
>>>ignore all mp2-specific modules (they will still be
>>>browseable via search.cpan.org), so that existing mp1
>>>users won't be confused. Instead, provide within the
>>>mp2 sources an 'mp2cpan/mp2cpanp' script as an interface
>>>to the CPAN/CPANPLUS shells just for installing mp2-specific
>>>modules (which could require Apache2.pm to adjust @INC,
>>>if present). There's a number of tools at hand one can use:
>>>- Module::Install, for customizing installations;
>>>- META.yml files, for distribution information, even
>>>if PAUSE doesn't recognize all fields;
>>>- the possibility to generate, and place on CPAN, a
>>>$CPAN/authors/S/SO/SOMEID/04moduledata.gz file that has the
>>>desired information on mp2 modules. If nothing else, this
>>>could be used just to "overload" the current information
>>>in the $CPAN/modules/ indices for mp2-specific things
>>>(eg, associate Apache::Request with libapreq2, rather
>>>than with libapreq as $CPAN/modules/ does).
>>
>>Randy, +1 to mp2cpan(?:p?).
>
>
> sorry - mp2cpanp eq 'wrapper around CPANPLUS shell'
I got it, I was just saying /mp2cpan(?:p?)/ instead of 'mp2cpan/mp2cpanp' :)
>>But you miss an important bit. If we tell
>>PAUSE to ignore mp2 modules, mp2cpan will be able to find them, and so
>>it'll be useless.
>
>
> I assume that to mean that if PAUSE ignores mp2 modules,
> mp2cpan will be *unable* to find them ...
That's correct. It's first of all a PAUSE problem. Until PAUSE indexer is
not fixed, we can't do any other fixes.
>>BTW, mp2cpan is really:
>>
>>perl -MApache2 -MCPAN -eshell
>>
>>Moreover you're again concentrating on the mp2-core, whereas the problem
>>is much bigger. Other Apache:: modules already suffer from the same issue,
>>so applying a broken workaround for the core won't do anything good for
>>the other modules out there.
>
>
> I was thinking of something even more involved, as you're
> right, there's more to this issue than the mp2-core.
> Invoking the CPAN/CPANPLUS shell as
> perl -MApache2 -MCPAN -eshell
> solves one problem - that of being able to now see installed
> modules under an Apache2/ - but it doesn't address the issue
> of the PAUSE indices either not seeing mp2 modules, if
> they're not indexed, or else seeing the "wrong" versions, if
> the mp1 modules are indexed instead. What I was thinking of
> is something along the lines of what CPAN::Site does - add
> another repository for CPAN modules. This requires
> additional 02packages.details.txt.gz and 01mailrc.txt.gz
> index files, except rather than pointing to a local site,
> these would point to existing modules on CPAN that are
> either not visible or are "wrongly indexed" (according to
> the desired mod_perl version) in the standard PAUSE/CPAN
> indices.
>
> In one scenario, assume PAUSE doesn't index any mp2 modules
> (either in the mp2 core or 3rd party, like
> Apache-ScoreBoard-2.02 or Apache::Request of libapreq2).
> Then, if an mp2 user invokes an mp2cpan, one could assume
> she/he wants the mp2 versions, and the additional index
> files would either provide mp2 modules missing from the
> PAUSE indices (eg, Apache::RequestUtil), or else remap
> existing mp1 modules (eg, Apache-ScoreBoard-0.10) to their
> mp2 versions.
>
> Of course, one wouldn't want to maintain these additional
> index files manually, especially for 3rd party modules. One
> trigger that perhaps could be used to automatically add
> packages to the indices is if, in their META.yml file, they
> used a prerequisite of Apache2.pm, indicating they're a pure
> mp2 package.
>
> These are just some thoughts - I certainly don't want
> to detract from a long-term, scaleable solution. But
> perhaps something along these lines might be workable?
That's just silly. Manually creating and maintaining index files, because
PAUSE doesn't do the right thing? And you lose the mirror system, unless
you are going to release those indexes somewhere so they will be mirrored.
It'll probably take 2 minutes of coding for Andreas or Autrijus, who
know the indexer code, to make this index autogenerated like all other
indexes.
Really the simplest solution at the moment is what Jos was suggesting on
p5p: index all versions and not just the latest and put them into a new
index file, so not to confuse the old clients. Once this is done we can
start talking about what to do with clients to make users happy.
In any case I'd rather see this workaround done for mp1 and not mp2. users
are going to move to mp2, and it's better to have mp2 modules indexed and
having mp1cpan as a workaround, since it will be eventually r.i.p.
Moreover, Geoff has raised an even move important issue on the users list.
It's quite possible that 6 months from now we will have modperl 2.2 out,
if Apache 2.2 comes with incompatible features. What you are going to do
in that case? Write a workaround to a workaround? My apologies, but I
think that any further search for yet another workaround is just a waste
of time, and the spent energy is better redirected to solve real problems.
--
__________________________________________________________________
Stas Bekman JAm_pH ------> Just Another mod_perl Hacker
http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide ---> http://perl.apache.org
mailto:stas@stason.org http://use.perl.org http://apacheweek.com
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Re: [mp2] PAUSE indexer issues
Posted by Randy Kobes <ra...@theoryx5.uwinnipeg.ca>.
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004, Stas Bekman wrote:
> Randy Kobes wrote:
[ ... ]
> > In a similar spirit to the provision of mp2doc as a
> > solution to the problem of using 'perldoc' under mp2,
> > I'm wondering (out loud) if it might hasten an overall
> > solution to tbe CPAN/CPANPLUS problem by addressing it
> > initially just within mp2 itself. That is, have PAUSE
> > ignore all mp2-specific modules (they will still be
> > browseable via search.cpan.org), so that existing mp1
> > users won't be confused. Instead, provide within the
> > mp2 sources an 'mp2cpan/mp2cpanp' script as an interface
> > to the CPAN/CPANPLUS shells just for installing mp2-specific
> > modules (which could require Apache2.pm to adjust @INC,
> > if present). There's a number of tools at hand one can use:
> > - Module::Install, for customizing installations;
> > - META.yml files, for distribution information, even
> > if PAUSE doesn't recognize all fields;
> > - the possibility to generate, and place on CPAN, a
> > $CPAN/authors/S/SO/SOMEID/04moduledata.gz file that has the
> > desired information on mp2 modules. If nothing else, this
> > could be used just to "overload" the current information
> > in the $CPAN/modules/ indices for mp2-specific things
> > (eg, associate Apache::Request with libapreq2, rather
> > than with libapreq as $CPAN/modules/ does).
>
> Randy, +1 to mp2cpan(?:p?).
sorry - mp2cpanp eq 'wrapper around CPANPLUS shell'
> But you miss an important bit. If we tell
> PAUSE to ignore mp2 modules, mp2cpan will be able to find them, and so
> it'll be useless.
I assume that to mean that if PAUSE ignores mp2 modules,
mp2cpan will be *unable* to find them ...
> BTW, mp2cpan is really:
>
> perl -MApache2 -MCPAN -eshell
>
> Moreover you're again concentrating on the mp2-core, whereas the problem
> is much bigger. Other Apache:: modules already suffer from the same issue,
> so applying a broken workaround for the core won't do anything good for
> the other modules out there.
I was thinking of something even more involved, as you're
right, there's more to this issue than the mp2-core.
Invoking the CPAN/CPANPLUS shell as
perl -MApache2 -MCPAN -eshell
solves one problem - that of being able to now see installed
modules under an Apache2/ - but it doesn't address the issue
of the PAUSE indices either not seeing mp2 modules, if
they're not indexed, or else seeing the "wrong" versions, if
the mp1 modules are indexed instead. What I was thinking of
is something along the lines of what CPAN::Site does - add
another repository for CPAN modules. This requires
additional 02packages.details.txt.gz and 01mailrc.txt.gz
index files, except rather than pointing to a local site,
these would point to existing modules on CPAN that are
either not visible or are "wrongly indexed" (according to
the desired mod_perl version) in the standard PAUSE/CPAN
indices.
In one scenario, assume PAUSE doesn't index any mp2 modules
(either in the mp2 core or 3rd party, like
Apache-ScoreBoard-2.02 or Apache::Request of libapreq2).
Then, if an mp2 user invokes an mp2cpan, one could assume
she/he wants the mp2 versions, and the additional index
files would either provide mp2 modules missing from the
PAUSE indices (eg, Apache::RequestUtil), or else remap
existing mp1 modules (eg, Apache-ScoreBoard-0.10) to their
mp2 versions.
Of course, one wouldn't want to maintain these additional
index files manually, especially for 3rd party modules. One
trigger that perhaps could be used to automatically add
packages to the indices is if, in their META.yml file, they
used a prerequisite of Apache2.pm, indicating they're a pure
mp2 package.
These are just some thoughts - I certainly don't want
to detract from a long-term, scaleable solution. But
perhaps something along these lines might be workable?
--
best regards,
randy
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Re: [mp2] PAUSE indexer issues
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
Randy Kobes wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Dec 2004, Stas Bekman wrote:
>
>
>>The current state of things is as follows: we release
>>things as they are, and it's up to users to request/demand
>>to have PAUSE and CPAN clients fixed.
>
>
> But how many users will be aware, or even suspect, that the
> root of the issue is something so fundamental?
We ought to well document that and point users to where they should send
their frustration emails (p5p, as I don't know any other place PAUSE/CPAN
can be discussed).
> They may
> think their own CPAN/CPANPLUS installation is at fault
> (which is not unheard of with tools as complex as these). Or
> they may feel it a misconfiguration of the module they're
> trying to install. Rather than being driven to complain,
> this may drive them away ...
I doubt that a broken CPAN client will drive users away. It's more likely
that people will stop using the CPAN client altogether.
> It seems apparent from the recent discussions that there's
> no strong consensus on how to address this problem. Even if
> there was, though, I imagine the implementation, and
> subsequent propagation of new tools, would take time -
> allowing multiple module versions is a major change, and
> doing so in such a way so as to not break existing
> CPAN-related tools would be tricky. And there's also the
> question of efficiency - right now the CPAN.pm shell on my
> system uses about 40 MB of memory when loaded, and that's
> just with the latest module/distribution versions.
>
> In a similar spirit to the provision of mp2doc as a
> solution to the problem of using 'perldoc' under mp2,
> I'm wondering (out loud) if it might hasten an overall
> solution to tbe CPAN/CPANPLUS problem by addressing it
> initially just within mp2 itself. That is, have PAUSE
> ignore all mp2-specific modules (they will still be
> browseable via search.cpan.org), so that existing mp1
> users won't be confused. Instead, provide within the
> mp2 sources an 'mp2cpan/mp2cpanp' script as an interface
> to the CPAN/CPANPLUS shells just for installing mp2-specific
> modules (which could require Apache2.pm to adjust @INC,
> if present). There's a number of tools at hand one can use:
> - Module::Install, for customizing installations;
> - META.yml files, for distribution information, even
> if PAUSE doesn't recognize all fields;
> - the possibility to generate, and place on CPAN, a
> $CPAN/authors/S/SO/SOMEID/04moduledata.gz file that has the
> desired information on mp2 modules. If nothing else, this
> could be used just to "overload" the current information
> in the $CPAN/modules/ indices for mp2-specific things
> (eg, associate Apache::Request with libapreq2, rather
> than with libapreq as $CPAN/modules/ does).
Randy, +1 to mp2cpan(?:p?). But you miss an important bit. If we tell
PAUSE to ignore mp2 modules, mp2cpan will be able to find them, and so
it'll be useless.
BTW, mp2cpan is really:
perl -MApache2 -MCPAN -eshell
Moreover you're again concentrating on the mp2-core, whereas the problem
is much bigger. Other Apache:: modules already suffer from the same issue,
so applying a broken workaround for the core won't do anything good for
the other modules out there.
> Of course, all this may be more trouble than it's worth, and
> as Stas emphasizes, such workarounds may actually be
> counter-productive. But if putting together a workable
> solution along this, or some other, line is possible outside
> of the standard PAUSE channels, integrating it at a later
> point within PAUSE may be easier to accomplish. And it may
> also make the transition to mp2 more transparent and easier
> for the average user ...
The problem is that I for one can't see such a workable solution. I've
happened to see a lot of proposals in the last year or so, none of them
was workable, they were all solving one problem, but creating another. We
have spent multiple hours discussing this here, at the users list, and p5p
to no avail. Of course that doesn't mean that there is absolutely no other
solution, but I haven't heard of one such yet.
I think if people have stopped looking for workarounds right now and
started working on the PAUSE/CPAN fixes, it won't take too long before the
problem is fixed. Meanwhile all those neverending discussings do nothing
to make the solution come sooner, but the opposite.
--
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Re: [mp2] PAUSE indexer issues
Posted by Randy Kobes <ra...@theoryx5.uwinnipeg.ca>.
On Sun, 26 Dec 2004, Stas Bekman wrote:
> The current state of things is as follows: we release
> things as they are, and it's up to users to request/demand
> to have PAUSE and CPAN clients fixed.
But how many users will be aware, or even suspect, that the
root of the issue is something so fundamental? They may
think their own CPAN/CPANPLUS installation is at fault
(which is not unheard of with tools as complex as these). Or
they may feel it a misconfiguration of the module they're
trying to install. Rather than being driven to complain,
this may drive them away ...
It seems apparent from the recent discussions that there's
no strong consensus on how to address this problem. Even if
there was, though, I imagine the implementation, and
subsequent propagation of new tools, would take time -
allowing multiple module versions is a major change, and
doing so in such a way so as to not break existing
CPAN-related tools would be tricky. And there's also the
question of efficiency - right now the CPAN.pm shell on my
system uses about 40 MB of memory when loaded, and that's
just with the latest module/distribution versions.
In a similar spirit to the provision of mp2doc as a
solution to the problem of using 'perldoc' under mp2,
I'm wondering (out loud) if it might hasten an overall
solution to tbe CPAN/CPANPLUS problem by addressing it
initially just within mp2 itself. That is, have PAUSE
ignore all mp2-specific modules (they will still be
browseable via search.cpan.org), so that existing mp1
users won't be confused. Instead, provide within the
mp2 sources an 'mp2cpan/mp2cpanp' script as an interface
to the CPAN/CPANPLUS shells just for installing mp2-specific
modules (which could require Apache2.pm to adjust @INC,
if present). There's a number of tools at hand one can use:
- Module::Install, for customizing installations;
- META.yml files, for distribution information, even
if PAUSE doesn't recognize all fields;
- the possibility to generate, and place on CPAN, a
$CPAN/authors/S/SO/SOMEID/04moduledata.gz file that has the
desired information on mp2 modules. If nothing else, this
could be used just to "overload" the current information
in the $CPAN/modules/ indices for mp2-specific things
(eg, associate Apache::Request with libapreq2, rather
than with libapreq as $CPAN/modules/ does).
Of course, all this may be more trouble than it's worth, and
as Stas emphasizes, such workarounds may actually be
counter-productive. But if putting together a workable
solution along this, or some other, line is possible outside
of the standard PAUSE channels, integrating it at a later
point within PAUSE may be easier to accomplish. And it may
also make the transition to mp2 more transparent and easier
for the average user ...
--
best regards,
randy
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Re: [mp2] PAUSE indexer issues
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
[cross-posting to p5p so I don't have to repeat it again on p5p]
Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
>>>>>>"Stas" == Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org> writes:
>
>
> Stas> The current state of things is as follows: we release things as they
> Stas> are, and it's up to users to request/demand to have PAUSE and CPAN
> Stas> clients fixed.
>
> "I won't make my package compatible with the world, even though I can.
> Therefore, the world must change."
May be if you've actually tried to understand the problem, rather than
derive your conclusions from a surfacial brush, you won't have been
wasting the bandwidth and our time, instead you would have directed your
seemingly copious tuits to solve the problem, rather than bragging about it.
> If you want people to adopt mp2, this won't fly.
I promise you Randal, people will adopt mp2, not because Randal gave them
a green light to do so, but because it's a superior technology to mp1.
All you are going to achieve by continuing what you are doing[1] is that
more people are going to ignore you. And it's a pity, since I used to
think that you were a very helpful person to the perl world, when I was
just starting myself. Unfortunately this is no longer true. I wish this
wasn't the case.
So keep trying.
[1] In case you didn't notice. That's how Randal helps to encourage people
to test mod_perl2 release candidates to find crucial problems before a
release is made:
http://apache.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=133957&cid=11186211
I've no more words for this "person".
--
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Re: [mp2] PAUSE indexer issues
Posted by "Randal L. Schwartz" <me...@stonehenge.com>.
>>>>> "Stas" == Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org> writes:
Stas> The current state of things is as follows: we release things as they
Stas> are, and it's up to users to request/demand to have PAUSE and CPAN
Stas> clients fixed.
"I won't make my package compatible with the world, even though I can.
Therefore, the world must change."
Whatever.
If you want people to adopt mp2, this won't fly.
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Re: [mp2] PAUSE indexer issues
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
Joe Schaefer wrote:
> Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org> writes:
>
>
>>Joe Schaefer wrote:
>>
>>>Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org> writes:
>>>[...]
>>>
>>>
>>>>Again:
>>>>
>>>>1) mod_perl2.pm doesn't exit. Renaming the distro to mod_perl2 won't
>>>>make any difference, since indexer does not look at the distro name.
>>>
>>>That is a minor quibble; certainly we could create a vacuous
>>>
>>>>mod_perl2 module if we really wanted to.
>>
>>This is a really bad workaround, IMHO. As it breaks all the paradigms
>>to start with.
>
>
> There's always the existing Apache2.pm if you don't like the
> "mod_perl2" hack; that way no renaming is necessary.
That's correct.
>>>>2) this it's not going to help other modules. Example: there are two
>>>>internally incompatible versions of Apache-Scoreboard (but which
>>>>otherwise work identically for users):
>>>>http://search.cpan.org/~stas/Apache-Scoreboard-2.02/
>>>>http://search.cpan.org/~dougm/Apache-Scoreboard-0.10/
>>>>Apache::VMonitor requires that module, how is it going to resolve the
>>>>dependency if it's not indexed?
>>>
>>>The same way it did before the mp2 candidates started showing up on
>>>CPAN. If your next release of Apache-Scoreboard used this patch
>>>in its META.yml
>>> requires:
>>> Apache::Test 1.10
>>>- mod_perl: 1.9917
>>>+ mod_perl2: 2.00 and the mp2 final release provided the
>>>mod_perl2 package, that'd do exactly what you wanted, no?
>>
>>You've missed the point, Joe. It has nothing to do with modperl-core.
>>
>>Apache::VMonitor requires Apache-Scoreboard. There are two different
>>Apache-Scoreboard version on CPAN. If Apache-Scoreboard-2.02 is not indexed,
>>Apache::VMonitor for mp2 can't automatically satisfy its prerequisites.
>
>
> But the Apache::VMonitor on CPAN supports both mp1 and mp2, right?
> So if Apache-Scoreboard-2.02 is not indexed, Apache::VMonitor accepts
> the indexed one for mp1: Apache-Scoreboard-0.10. However, I'm not
> arguing that Apache-Scoreboard-2.02 remain unindexed; I'm only talking
> about the modules common to both mp1 and mp2 distros. What the
> author of Apache::Scoreboard does is entirely up to you, but
> if I were you, I would leave Apache-Scoreboard-2.02 indexed.
I've lost you, Joe. Of course Apache-Scoreboard-2.02 needs to be indexed.
So does Apache-Scoreboard-0.10. But at the moment only 2.02 is indexed. So
Apache-VMonitor mp1 users need to install Apache-Scoreboard-0.10 manually.
removing 2.02 from index, will reverse the situation. Neither of these is
good.
I'm trying to show that the problem is much bigger than just for modules
common to modperl-core. So finding some workaround for the core, doesn't
make the users any happier. On the opposite I think it's much easier to
not rely on CPAN clients to install the core modperl (and that's the case
with modperl users who build modperl by themselves), but it's the 3rd
party modules that are in trouble. So I guess using modperl2 as an example
was a really bad example in first place. I should have used some 3rd party
module like Apache-VMonitor/Apache-Scoreboard pair.
> To be clear, I've been under the assumption that the mp2 developers
> were/are assuming multi-version CPAN support was/is going to happen.
> All I'm suggesting is that, now that we are reasonably certain about
> CPAN's (lack of) functionality, that some reaffirmation of the
> mp2 release plan takes place. At the very least it will ensure
> that the apreq'ers are in sync with the modperl'ers.
No assumption was ever made, this was a wishful thinking. I was falsely
thinking that the issue was just a matter of tuits, so I've continued
pinging Autrijus every half a year or so. And I've now started this thread
again, since Autrijus said he will work on solving the problem in January.
I've volunteered to polish the previously discussed scenario and decided
to bounce it off p5p to collect any new ideas. But the effect was the
opposite. I should have never posted it there, and instead having it
implemented.
The current state of things is as follows: we release things as they are,
and it's up to users to request/demand to have PAUSE and CPAN clients fixed.
--
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Re: [mp2] PAUSE indexer issues
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@sunstarsys.com>.
Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org> writes:
> Joe Schaefer wrote:
>> Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org> writes:
>> [...]
>>
>>>Again:
>>>
>>>1) mod_perl2.pm doesn't exit. Renaming the distro to mod_perl2 won't
>>>make any difference, since indexer does not look at the distro name.
>> That is a minor quibble; certainly we could create a vacuous
>>>mod_perl2 module if we really wanted to.
>
> This is a really bad workaround, IMHO. As it breaks all the paradigms
> to start with.
There's always the existing Apache2.pm if you don't like the
"mod_perl2" hack; that way no renaming is necessary.
>>>2) this it's not going to help other modules. Example: there are two
>>>internally incompatible versions of Apache-Scoreboard (but which
>>>otherwise work identically for users):
>>>http://search.cpan.org/~stas/Apache-Scoreboard-2.02/
>>>http://search.cpan.org/~dougm/Apache-Scoreboard-0.10/
>>>Apache::VMonitor requires that module, how is it going to resolve the
>>>dependency if it's not indexed?
>> The same way it did before the mp2 candidates started showing up on
>> CPAN. If your next release of Apache-Scoreboard used this patch
>> in its META.yml
>> requires:
>> Apache::Test 1.10
>> - mod_perl: 1.9917
>> + mod_perl2: 2.00 and the mp2 final release provided the
>> mod_perl2 package, that'd do exactly what you wanted, no?
>
> You've missed the point, Joe. It has nothing to do with modperl-core.
>
> Apache::VMonitor requires Apache-Scoreboard. There are two different
> Apache-Scoreboard version on CPAN. If Apache-Scoreboard-2.02 is not indexed,
> Apache::VMonitor for mp2 can't automatically satisfy its prerequisites.
But the Apache::VMonitor on CPAN supports both mp1 and mp2, right?
So if Apache-Scoreboard-2.02 is not indexed, Apache::VMonitor accepts
the indexed one for mp1: Apache-Scoreboard-0.10. However, I'm not
arguing that Apache-Scoreboard-2.02 remain unindexed; I'm only talking
about the modules common to both mp1 and mp2 distros. What the
author of Apache::Scoreboard does is entirely up to you, but
if I were you, I would leave Apache-Scoreboard-2.02 indexed.
To be clear, I've been under the assumption that the mp2 developers
were/are assuming multi-version CPAN support was/is going to happen.
All I'm suggesting is that, now that we are reasonably certain about
CPAN's (lack of) functionality, that some reaffirmation of the
mp2 release plan takes place. At the very least it will ensure
that the apreq'ers are in sync with the modperl'ers.
--
Joe Schaefer
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Re: [mp2] PAUSE indexer issues
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
Joe Schaefer wrote:
> Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org> writes:
>
>
> [...]
>
>
>>Again:
>>
>>1) mod_perl2.pm doesn't exit. Renaming the distro to mod_perl2 won't
>>make any difference, since indexer does not look at the distro name.
>
>
> That is a minor quibble; certainly we could create a
> vacuous mod_perl2 module if we really wanted to.
This is a really bad workaround, IMHO. As it breaks all the paradigms to
start with.
>>2) this it's not going to help other modules. Example: there are two
>>internally incompatible versions of Apache-Scoreboard (but which
>>otherwise work identically for users):
>>http://search.cpan.org/~stas/Apache-Scoreboard-2.02/
>>http://search.cpan.org/~dougm/Apache-Scoreboard-0.10/
>>Apache::VMonitor requires that module, how is it going to resolve the
>>dependency if it's not indexed?
>
>
> The same way it did before the mp2 candidates started showing up on
> CPAN. If your next release of Apache-Scoreboard used this patch
> in its META.yml
>
> requires:
> Apache::Test 1.10
> - mod_perl: 1.9917
> + mod_perl2: 2.00
>
>
> and the mp2 final release provided the mod_perl2 package,
> that'd do exactly what you wanted, no?
You've missed the point, Joe. It has nothing to do with modperl-core.
Apache::VMonitor requires Apache-Scoreboard. There are two different
Apache-Scoreboard version on CPAN. If Apache-Scoreboard-2.02 is not
indexed, Apache::VMonitor for mp2 can't automatically satisfy its
prerequisites.
Besides I fail to see the relevance of that META.yml example, which is
ignored by most CPAN clients, and Makefile.PL's prereq_pm is the one that
is consulted (at least for now).
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Re: [mp2] PAUSE indexer issues
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@sunstarsys.com>.
Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org> writes:
[...]
> Again:
>
> 1) mod_perl2.pm doesn't exit. Renaming the distro to mod_perl2 won't
> make any difference, since indexer does not look at the distro name.
That is a minor quibble; certainly we could create a
vacuous mod_perl2 module if we really wanted to.
> 2) this it's not going to help other modules. Example: there are two
> internally incompatible versions of Apache-Scoreboard (but which
> otherwise work identically for users):
> http://search.cpan.org/~stas/Apache-Scoreboard-2.02/
> http://search.cpan.org/~dougm/Apache-Scoreboard-0.10/
> Apache::VMonitor requires that module, how is it going to resolve the
> dependency if it's not indexed?
The same way it did before the mp2 candidates started showing up on
CPAN. If your next release of Apache-Scoreboard used this patch
in its META.yml
requires:
Apache::Test 1.10
- mod_perl: 1.9917
+ mod_perl2: 2.00
and the mp2 final release provided the mod_perl2 package,
that'd do exactly what you wanted, no?
--
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Re: [mp2] PAUSE indexer issues
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
Joe Schaefer wrote:
>>>Looks reasonable. Then how about changing mp2's META.yml
>>>to simply not index any similarly-named mp1-modules?
>>
>>What difference would it make? It'll fix the problem for modules
>>requiring mp1, but it'll break dependencies for modules requiring
>>mp2. Even if you it's reasonable to suggest that there are more mp1
>>users at the moment, who's going to decide when it's the right time to
>>stop the wheel and start rolling it in the opposite direction.
>
> I'd think the pmc@perl would decide, preferably with 3 +1's on this
> list.
*shrug*
>>Or do you suggest to make a special case for mod_perl.pm?
>>
>>And if you follow your own suggestion, you will have to completely exclude
>>libapreq2 from indexing, preventing anybody from seeing it via CPAN clients.
>
>
> We could index "mod_perl2" and "libapreq2" (note the "2") modules,
> and tell new developers to put those at the top of their prereq list.
> Once those prereqs are satisfied, the other Apache::* dependencies
> will be taken care of, so the fact that Apache::Request is indexed in
> a libapreq1 tarball shouldn't matter, should it? I'm guessing about
> how cpan actually resolves these dependencies, so if I'm wrong please
> say so.
Again:
1) mod_perl2.pm doesn't exit. Renaming the distro to mod_perl2 won't make
any difference, since indexer does not look at the distro name.
2) this it's not going to help other modules. Example: there are two
internally incompatible versions of Apache-Scoreboard (but which otherwise
work identically for users):
http://search.cpan.org/~stas/Apache-Scoreboard-2.02/
http://search.cpan.org/~dougm/Apache-Scoreboard-0.10/
Apache::VMonitor requires that module, how is it going to resolve the
dependency if it's not indexed? (Note that this is just a single example)
I'm sure you will find more on CPAN and more will appear once mp2 is released)
So, IMHO the proposed workaround does not solve the problem, other than
making some users happy, rendering others unhappy.
The only proper solution is to fix PAUSE/CPAN and all the efforts should
be put to make this happen. Any workaround will bring an incomplete
solution, which will hurt someone.
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Re: [mp2] PAUSE indexer issues
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@sunstarsys.com>.
Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org> writes:
> Joe Schaefer wrote:
[...]
>> Looks reasonable. Then how about changing mp2's META.yml
>> to simply not index any similarly-named mp1-modules?
>
> What difference would it make? It'll fix the problem for modules
> requiring mp1, but it'll break dependencies for modules requiring
> mp2. Even if you it's reasonable to suggest that there are more mp1
> users at the moment, who's going to decide when it's the right time to
> stop the wheel and start rolling it in the opposite direction.
I'd think the pmc@perl would decide, preferably with 3 +1's on this
list.
> Or do you suggest to make a special case for mod_perl.pm?
>
> And if you follow your own suggestion, you will have to completely exclude
> libapreq2 from indexing, preventing anybody from seeing it via CPAN clients.
We could index "mod_perl2" and "libapreq2" (note the "2") modules,
and tell new developers to put those at the top of their prereq list.
Once those prereqs are satisfied, the other Apache::* dependencies
will be taken care of, so the fact that Apache::Request is indexed in
a libapreq1 tarball shouldn't matter, should it? I'm guessing about
how cpan actually resolves these dependencies, so if I'm wrong please
say so.
--
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Re: [mp2] PAUSE indexer issues
Posted by "Randal L. Schwartz" <me...@stonehenge.com>.
>>>>> "Stas" == Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org> writes:
>> That doesn't fix the manpage issue. There can be only one
Stas> The manpage is in the .pm file.
"manpage" - as in extracted into a file in troff "-man" format so that
my "man" command will find it.
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Re: [mp2] PAUSE indexer issues
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
>>>>>>"Stas" == Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org> writes:
>
>
>>>This doesn't address all of Randal's complaints (eg perldoc doesn't
>>>know about Apache2),
>
>
> Stas> mp2doc exists to solve this problem, it is installed when mp2 is
> Stas> installed. It was added in 1.99_09 - April 28, 2003.
>
> That doesn't fix the manpage issue. There can be only one
The manpage is in the .pm file. And there could be many .pm files with the
same name. mp2doc will give you the right manpage. While imperfect this is
a working solution. If you have a better solution, please suggest.
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Re: [mp2] PAUSE indexer issues
Posted by "Randal L. Schwartz" <me...@stonehenge.com>.
>>>>> "Stas" == Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org> writes:
>> This doesn't address all of Randal's complaints (eg perldoc doesn't
>> know about Apache2),
Stas> mp2doc exists to solve this problem, it is installed when mp2 is
Stas> installed. It was added in 1.99_09 - April 28, 2003.
That doesn't fix the manpage issue. There can be only one
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Re: [mp2] PAUSE indexer issues
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
Joe Schaefer wrote:
> Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org> writes:
>
>
>> > Eventually that dynamic will reverse itself, and that would be the
>> > time to phase out mp1 from CPAN. But not we're not there yet, IMO [*].
>
>
> [...]
>
>
>>And that's exactly why workarounds shouldn't be sought after. Since
>>once the trend reverts, those workarounds will bite you back. Solving
>>it properly on the CPAN/PAUSE level now will provide a proper solution
>>which won't break when the trend changes.
>
>
> Looks reasonable. Then how about changing mp2's META.yml
> to simply not index any similarly-named mp1-modules?
What difference would it make? It'll fix the problem for modules requiring
mp1, but it'll break dependencies for modules requiring mp2. Even if you
it's reasonable to suggest that there are more mp1 users at the moment,
who's going to decide when it's the right time to stop the wheel and start
rolling it in the opposite direction. Why giving users a false warm
feeling when things are broken in reality, and it will hit them sooner or
later?
Besides, your suggestion to simply not index any similarly-named
mp1-modules, includes mod_perl.pm. So anybody who did moved to mp2 and
tries to check whether there is a new version by querying the client for
that module name will be mislead to think that there are none. Or do you
suggest to make a special case for mod_perl.pm?
And if you follow your own suggestion, you will have to completely exclude
libapreq2 from indexing, preventing anybody from seeing it via CPAN clients.
And to be consistent it will need to be followed by other Apache::
modules, like Apache::Scoreboard.
If you do all these, you can be sure that the migration to mp2 will take a
few years and more, since people will be simply unaware of new things
being released.
> This doesn't address all of Randal's complaints (eg perldoc doesn't
> know about Apache2),
mp2doc exists to solve this problem, it is installed when mp2 is
installed. It was added in 1.99_09 - April 28, 2003.
> but that's a change which would put me on the positive side of a final release vote.
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Re: [mp2] PAUSE indexer issues
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@sunstarsys.com>.
Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org> writes:
> > Eventually that dynamic will reverse itself, and that would be the
> > time to phase out mp1 from CPAN. But not we're not there yet, IMO [*].
[...]
> And that's exactly why workarounds shouldn't be sought after. Since
> once the trend reverts, those workarounds will bite you back. Solving
> it properly on the CPAN/PAUSE level now will provide a proper solution
> which won't break when the trend changes.
Looks reasonable. Then how about changing mp2's META.yml
to simply not index any similarly-named mp1-modules? This
doesn't address all of Randal's complaints (eg perldoc doesn't
know about Apache2), but that's a change which would put me
on the positive side of a final release vote.
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Joe Schaefer
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Re: [mp2] PAUSE indexer issues
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
[...]
>>>I'm not completely convinced that this is a good idea,
>>>so I'd like to see it discussed (again), now that we are reasonably
>>>certain about CPAN's functionality.
>>
>>Autrijus mentioned that he will have time in January to make CPAN do
>>the right thing. But since the discussion on p5p shows that nobody
>>wants for things to change, and wait for perl6 to solve all the
>>problems, I'm not sure what should I tell Autrijus now.
>
>
> Me neither, but if we discuss things a bit more, we might be able
> to find a reasonable compromise here. Maybe a few small tweaks
> to CPAN will work for us (not sure what those would be yet),
> instead of the major restructuring that multi-versioning seems to
> require.
It's really not a problem of mod_perl specifically. mod_perl can be
happily downloaded from:
http://perl.apache.org/download/index.html
It's big enough of an application that can be handled manually.
One could argue that it's most likely that a person will already have
modperl installed before they will try to install a module that depends on
it. But...
It's really a problem with other Apache modules like Apache-Scoreboard,
which can't be reached from anywhere but CPAN. mod_perl-core was really
just an example in that discussion. The problem is much bigger than just
one module (including other modules which have nothing to do with modperl
at all).
>>Oh well, I can spend only so much time on this futile issue. I'm
>>moving on and letting others to figure it out.
>
>
> I know how much time you've spent on this, and I'm
> very sympathetic. Have you given any thought to
> my p5p proposal about telling CPAN to index mp2's
> modules as having an Apache2:: prefix? If that
> were somehow workable, and we changed the tarball's
> name from mod_perl to mod_perl2, we might be able
> to have mp1 and mp2 co-exist peacefully on CPAN.
The name of the distro has no difference what so ever on the indexer.
In any case it's futile to try to think of any workarounds in the
indexer/CPAN clients when the general attitude is "it's not our problem,
so nothing is going to be changed".
> Yes, this might create some headaches for new modules
> targeting mp2 specifically, but the majority of gripes
> now will certainly come from existing mp1 users. Eventually
> that dynamic will reverse itself, and that would be
> the time to phase out mp1 from CPAN.
If enough users scream may be someone will be bothered to fix CPAN/PAUSE.
At the moment it's only Randal who screams, apparently his voice is too
weak to make any difference, may be because he screams in the wrong
direction. Reminds me of a bad idea of peeing against the wind.
I've been talking about this problem for *3* years, but no one wanted to
listen to me.
> Eventually that dynamic will reverse itself, and that would be the
> time to phase out mp1 from CPAN. But not we're not there yet, IMO [*].
> [*]- A month ago, I checked on the netcraft/securityspace
> apache2 adoption rates, and it was about 1/6 of all
> apache installations. *Many* people simply aren't ready
> for apache2 yet, much less mp2.
And that's exactly why workarounds shouldn't be sought after. Since once
the trend reverts, those workarounds will bite you back. Solving it
properly on the CPAN/PAUSE level now will provide a proper solution which
won't break when the trend changes.
--
__________________________________________________________________
Stas Bekman JAm_pH ------> Just Another mod_perl Hacker
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Re: [mp2] PAUSE indexer issues
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
>>>>>>"Joe" == Joe Schaefer <jo...@sunstarsys.com> writes:
>
>
> Joe> Agreed; it's CPAN's behavior I'm worried about. In contrast
> Joe> to Randal's position, I actually like the fact that the package
> Joe> names haven't changed much between mp1 and mp2.
>
> That's not actually in contrast with my position. I would also like
> it if names didn't change when the external interface didn't change.
> But as long as the implementations aren't upward compatible, our hand
> is forced.
Your hand is not forced. CPAN can and should be fixed. Trying to convince
people that it's not a CPAN problem, will not help make this happen. Your
"help" so far had only the opposite intentions and results.
--
__________________________________________________________________
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Re: [mp2] PAUSE indexer issues
Posted by "Randal L. Schwartz" <me...@stonehenge.com>.
>>>>> "Joe" == Joe Schaefer <jo...@sunstarsys.com> writes:
Joe> Agreed; it's CPAN's behavior I'm worried about. In contrast
Joe> to Randal's position, I actually like the fact that the package
Joe> names haven't changed much between mp1 and mp2.
That's not actually in contrast with my position. I would also like
it if names didn't change when the external interface didn't change.
But as long as the implementations aren't upward compatible, our hand
is forced.
--
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<me...@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
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Re: [mp2] PAUSE indexer issues
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@sunstarsys.com>.
Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org> writes:
> Joe Schaefer wrote:
>> Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org> writes:
>>
>>>Joe Schaefer wrote:
>> [...]
>>
>>>>I'm asking if changing the Apache::Resource provider from mp1
>>>>to mp2 is really what _we_ want to do, now that we know CPAN
>>>>will not support multi-versioning prior to mp2's release.
>>>
>>> why not? Why mp1 should be favored above mp2?
>> It's not about favoritism, it's about stability.
>
> stability of what?
Of CPAN. It's not goodness to require other mp1-only CPAN
modules to upgrade to mp2 on our timetable. Such modules
on CPAN should continue to work as-is; in other words:
If pre-existing (mp1) module Foo currently lists Apache::Resource as a
dependency, and someone without preexisting modperl installation
tells cpan to install the Foo module, the mod-perl tarball that CPAN
fetches should be mp1.
Why mp1? Because that's what happened when the author uploaded
Foo to CPAN. That's what I mean by stability here.
> mp2.0.0 should be out in about 2 weeks and I think it's just as
> stable as mp1 wrt prefork functionality.
Agreed; it's CPAN's behavior I'm worried about. In contrast
to Randal's position, I actually like the fact that the package
names haven't changed much between mp1 and mp2. But I agree with
Randal that coexistence between mp1 and mp2 is very important
(in fact I think it'll increase adoption, because people will be
able to confortably compare the two instead of taking a
"leap of faith").
[...]
>> I'm not completely convinced that this is a good idea,
>> so I'd like to see it discussed (again), now that we are reasonably
>> certain about CPAN's functionality.
>
> Autrijus mentioned that he will have time in January to make CPAN do
> the right thing. But since the discussion on p5p shows that nobody
> wants for things to change, and wait for perl6 to solve all the
> problems, I'm not sure what should I tell Autrijus now.
Me neither, but if we discuss things a bit more, we might be able
to find a reasonable compromise here. Maybe a few small tweaks
to CPAN will work for us (not sure what those would be yet),
instead of the major restructuring that multi-versioning seems to
require.
> Oh well, I can spend only so much time on this futile issue. I'm
> moving on and letting others to figure it out.
I know how much time you've spent on this, and I'm
very sympathetic. Have you given any thought to
my p5p proposal about telling CPAN to index mp2's
modules as having an Apache2:: prefix? If that
were somehow workable, and we changed the tarball's
name from mod_perl to mod_perl2, we might be able
to have mp1 and mp2 co-exist peacefully on CPAN.
Yes, this might create some headaches for new modules
targeting mp2 specifically, but the majority of gripes
now will certainly come from existing mp1 users. Eventually
that dynamic will reverse itself, and that would be
the time to phase out mp1 from CPAN. But not we're
not there yet, IMO [*].
[*]- A month ago, I checked on the netcraft/securityspace
apache2 adoption rates, and it was about 1/6 of all
apache installations. *Many* people simply aren't ready
for apache2 yet, much less mp2.
--
Joe Schaefer
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Re: [mp2] PAUSE indexer issues
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
Joe Schaefer wrote:
> Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org> writes:
>
>
>>Joe Schaefer wrote:
>
>
> [...]
>
>
>>>I'm asking if changing the Apache::Resource provider from mp1
>>>to mp2 is really what _we_ want to do, now that we know CPAN
>>>will not support multi-versioning prior to mp2's release.
>>
>>why not? Why mp1 should be favored above mp2?
>
>
> It's not about favoritism, it's about stability.
stability of what? mp2.0.0 should be out in about 2 weeks and I think it's
just as stable as mp1 wrt prefork functionality.
> The
> version-qualifier in META.yml's "requires"
>
> <URL: http://module-build.sourceforge.net/META-spec.html>
>
> * requires
> Example:
> Data::Dumper: 0
> File::Find: 1.03
>
>
> A YAML mapping indicating the Perl modules this distribution
> requires for proper operation. The keys are the module names, and
> the values are version specifications as described in the
> documentation for Module::Build's "requires" parameter.
>
>
> Note: the exact nature of the fancy specifications like ">= 1.2,
> != 1.5, < 2.0" is subject to change. Advance notice will be given
> here. The simple specifications like "1.2" will not change in format.
>
>
> is a total fscking joke without the corresponding CPAN indexing.
> But since p5p is not going to do that, is there some other way for a
> third-party module to specify "I require mp1's Apache::Resource"?
> Probably not, if mp2 is occupying the same module/tarball namespaces
> on CPAN.
If the indexer continues to blindly index the highest number, then it
certainly won't work. Jos has suggested that the indexer should index all
live modules in which case this will work just fine.
> I'm not completely convinced that this is a good idea,
> so I'd like to see it discussed (again), now that we are reasonably
> certain about CPAN's functionality.
Autrijus mentioned that he will have time in January to make CPAN do the
right thing. But since the discussion on p5p shows that nobody wants for
things to change, and wait for perl6 to solve all the problems, I'm not
sure what should I tell Autrijus now.
I think it's up to users to make sure that this CPAN problem is not
dropped again for the third time in the last 3 years that I've been
raising this issue. There is a pseudo-prototype of how things should be
working, there is a person who's willing to start implementing things, but
there are people who don't want things to be changed, just because it
suits their needs. Oh well, I can spend only so much time on this futile
issue. I'm moving on and letting others to figure it out.
--
__________________________________________________________________
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Re: [mp2] PAUSE indexer issues
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@sunstarsys.com>.
Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org> writes:
> Joe Schaefer wrote:
[...]
>> I'm asking if changing the Apache::Resource provider from mp1
>> to mp2 is really what _we_ want to do, now that we know CPAN
>> will not support multi-versioning prior to mp2's release.
>
> why not? Why mp1 should be favored above mp2?
It's not about favoritism, it's about stability. The
version-qualifier in META.yml's "requires"
<URL: http://module-build.sourceforge.net/META-spec.html>
* requires
Example:
Data::Dumper: 0
File::Find: 1.03
A YAML mapping indicating the Perl modules this distribution
requires for proper operation. The keys are the module names, and
the values are version specifications as described in the
documentation for Module::Build's "requires" parameter.
Note: the exact nature of the fancy specifications like ">= 1.2,
!= 1.5, < 2.0" is subject to change. Advance notice will be given
here. The simple specifications like "1.2" will not change in format.
is a total fscking joke without the corresponding CPAN indexing.
But since p5p is not going to do that, is there some other way for a
third-party module to specify "I require mp1's Apache::Resource"?
Probably not, if mp2 is occupying the same module/tarball namespaces
on CPAN. I'm not completely convinced that this is a good idea,
so I'd like to see it discussed (again), now that we are reasonably
certain about CPAN's functionality.
--
Joe Schaefer
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Re: [mp2] PAUSE indexer issues
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
Joe Schaefer wrote:
> Randy Kobes <ra...@theoryx5.uwinnipeg.ca> writes:
>
>
>>On Sun, 26 Dec 2004, Joe Schaefer wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Err, what's going on with Apache::Resource?
>>>
>>>Module id = Apache::Resource
>>> DESCRIPTION Limit resources used by httpd children
>>> CPAN_USERID APML (The Perl/Apache Mailing List <mo...@apache.org>)
>>> CPAN_VERSION 1.72
>>> CPAN_FILE G/GO/GOZER/mod_perl-2.0.0-RC2-XMas.tar.gz
>>> DSLI_STATUS Smpf (standard,mailing-list,perl,functions)
>>> INST_FILE (not installed)
>>>
>>>
>>>>From the recent p5p discussion (and despite any past promises),
>>>it doesn't appear that PAUSE/CPAN will be supporting
>>>multi-version indexing, so is this a bug or what?
>>
>>Apache::Resource from mod_perl-1.29 is at 1.71, so since
>>it's at 1.72 in RC2, isn't associating Apache::Resouce with
>>mp2 correct (according to the expected behaviour of PAUSE)?
>
>
> PAUSE is doing what it's supposed to do. I'm asking if
> changing the Apache::Resource provider from mp1 to mp2
> is really what _we_ want to do, now that we know CPAN
> will not support multi-versioning prior to mp2's release.
why not? Why mp1 should be favored above mp2? mp2 is here to stay, mp1 is
there to go. So if PAUSE doesn't want to index both, it should be mp2, IMHO.
--
__________________________________________________________________
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Re: [mp2] PAUSE indexer issues
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@sunstarsys.com>.
Randy Kobes <ra...@theoryx5.uwinnipeg.ca> writes:
> On Sun, 26 Dec 2004, Joe Schaefer wrote:
>
>> Err, what's going on with Apache::Resource?
>>
>> Module id = Apache::Resource
>> DESCRIPTION Limit resources used by httpd children
>> CPAN_USERID APML (The Perl/Apache Mailing List <mo...@apache.org>)
>> CPAN_VERSION 1.72
>> CPAN_FILE G/GO/GOZER/mod_perl-2.0.0-RC2-XMas.tar.gz
>> DSLI_STATUS Smpf (standard,mailing-list,perl,functions)
>> INST_FILE (not installed)
>>
>>
>> From the recent p5p discussion (and despite any past promises),
>> it doesn't appear that PAUSE/CPAN will be supporting
>> multi-version indexing, so is this a bug or what?
>
> Apache::Resource from mod_perl-1.29 is at 1.71, so since
> it's at 1.72 in RC2, isn't associating Apache::Resouce with
> mp2 correct (according to the expected behaviour of PAUSE)?
PAUSE is doing what it's supposed to do. I'm asking if
changing the Apache::Resource provider from mp1 to mp2
is really what _we_ want to do, now that we know CPAN
will not support multi-versioning prior to mp2's release.
--
Joe Schaefer
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Re: [mp2] PAUSE indexer issues
Posted by Randy Kobes <ra...@theoryx5.uwinnipeg.ca>.
On Sun, 26 Dec 2004, Joe Schaefer wrote:
> Err, what's going on with Apache::Resource?
>
> Module id = Apache::Resource
> DESCRIPTION Limit resources used by httpd children
> CPAN_USERID APML (The Perl/Apache Mailing List <mo...@apache.org>)
> CPAN_VERSION 1.72
> CPAN_FILE G/GO/GOZER/mod_perl-2.0.0-RC2-XMas.tar.gz
> DSLI_STATUS Smpf (standard,mailing-list,perl,functions)
> INST_FILE (not installed)
>
>
> From the recent p5p discussion (and despite any past promises),
> it doesn't appear that PAUSE/CPAN will be supporting
> multi-version indexing, so is this a bug or what?
Apache::Resource from mod_perl-1.29 is at 1.71, so since
it's at 1.72 in RC2, isn't associating Apache::Resouce with
mp2 correct (according to the expected behaviour of PAUSE)?
--
best regards,
randy
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Re: [mp2] PAUSE indexer issues
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@sunstarsys.com>.
Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org> writes:
> The PAUSE indexer report requires that we do the following:
>
> Index: META.yml
> ===================================================================
> --- META.yml (revision 123262)
> +++ META.yml (working copy)
> @@ -7,3 +7,10 @@
> - Apache-Test
> package:
> - C::Preprocessed
> + - Apache
> + - Apache::Constants
> + - Apache::File
> + - Apache::SIG
> + - Apache::Server
> + - Apache::Table
> + - Apache::Util
>
> Those are all coming from packages found in compat.pm
Err, what's going on with Apache::Resource?
Module id = Apache::Resource
DESCRIPTION Limit resources used by httpd children
CPAN_USERID APML (The Perl/Apache Mailing List <mo...@apache.org>)
CPAN_VERSION 1.72
CPAN_FILE G/GO/GOZER/mod_perl-2.0.0-RC2-XMas.tar.gz
DSLI_STATUS Smpf (standard,mailing-list,perl,functions)
INST_FILE (not installed)
>From the recent p5p discussion (and despite any past promises),
it doesn't appear that PAUSE/CPAN will be supporting
multi-version indexing, so is this a bug or what?
--
Joe Schaefer
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