Where are all the commits?

[Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com>]

On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 2:06 PM, Dmitry Gusev <dm...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Dmitry Gusev: +1 (non-binding)
>
>
> I like seeing that new Tapestry committers appear,
> but looking at git logs I see that (almost) the only core committer is
> Howard.
>
>
Well, I am the most invested in things.



> Other committers do some rare, though valuable, fixes and apply patches
> from JIRA.
>

And that is valuable in and off itself.


>
> From this point of view, it appears to me that having Tapestry committer
> status means
> you can apply patches, but not develop new functionality in core,
> which I would expect from Tapestry committer when voting for him.
>
>
No the problem is committers who are not committing. Tapestry is
specifically designed so that it can support a wide number of committers
with different skill sets: you don't have to be a bytecode wizard to make
significant improvements to the code base. I know I'd appreciate the help!



> We can see that most of tapestry5 development now is third party
> development
> which occurs on GitHub and other separate repositories, resulting in a
> tapestry-complement libraries,
> like tapestry5-jquery, tynamo, stitch, tapestry-bootstrap and many other
> wonderful projects.
>
> This is great, though, these projects stand aside from main tapestry
> development,
> and most of them appear outdated after new tapestry releases
> because they released separately from tapestry core.
>
> I'd really like to see more developers of those libraries as Tapestry
> committers so that they
> can support their own 3rd party libraries compatibilities as a part of main
> tapestry development,
> and may be hold tapestry core releases until all those libraries are
> up-to-date with new tapestry release.
>

We are open to active members of the community requesting committer status.
The worst result from that would be a reminder about Apache standards for
earning commit privileges.

That doesn't mean we should open up the floodgates!  Worse than few commits
or committers would be "dump-and-run" committers; we had some of that in
the T4 days.


>
>
> Not sure if this is the right place to ask, we can create a separate thread
> for this,
> but Lance, can you tell us what are you planning to do as a Tapestry
> committer?
>
> Is there any roadmap that you will follow?
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 11:43 PM, Kalle Korhonen
> <ka...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> > Lance Semmens (aka Lance Java) has been one of the most active members on
> > the user list for the past two years. I've personally committed a few
> > patches from him and he is the maintainer of tapestry-stitch (
> > https://github.com/uklance/tapestry-stitch/), a collection of sample
> > components and concepts for Tapestry 5. Howard has spoke with him
> privately
> > and he's interested in joining as a committer. Vote to run for a minimum
> of
> > three days.
> >
> > Kalle Korhonen: +1 (non-binding)
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Dmitry Gusev
>
> AnjLab Team
> http://anjlab.com
>



-- 
Howard M. Lewis Ship

Creator of Apache Tapestry

The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to
learn how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast!

(971) 678-5210
http://howardlewisship.com

Re: Where are all the commits?

[Dmitry Gusev <dm...@gmail.com>]

Its more clear now, thanks.

On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 3:43 PM, Thiago H de Paula Figueiredo <
thiagohp@gmail.com> wrote:

> I invite you to read http://apache.org/foundation/**
> how-it-works.html#roles<http://apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#roles>.
> Tapestry is an Apache Foundation project, so we follow the foundation rules
> and customs. And one of its core values is meritocracy. I see committer
> status, besides other things, as a way of rewarding someone's contributions
> for the project, of saying we trust that person to directly commit code
> when he/she has some code to contribute.
>
> Contribution to an open source project goes beyond commiting code. It's
> also about community, writing in mailing lists, writing documentation,
> writing blog posts, evangelization, etc. Bob Harner, for example, made a
> huge improvement to one of the historically weak points of Tapestry, which
> is documentation. I don't recall seeing him doing any commit (please
> correct me if I'm wrong), but I do think he made a huge contribution to the
> Tapestry project and I'm very grateful to him.
>
> I think I got invited for committer and PMC status for almost just my
> participation in mailing lists. I did just one code contribution, the
> initial URL rewriting code that was later improved by Robert Ziegler and
> ended up being deprecated and removed later in favor of the Link Rewriter
> API (and I'm not complaining, software is supposed to evolve over time).
> And I still think I'm contributing to the project.
>
> I'll now answer your questions with my opinions and I'm not representing
> the project or any other people with my answers.
>
>
> On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 06:36:34 -0300, Dmitry Gusev <dm...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>  Still my question remains:
>>
>> What do you expect from a person when you invite him as a committer to
>> Tapestry project?
>>
>
> I expect this person to contribute the project in some way.
>
>
>  I mean in each specific case.
>>
>
> I don't expect anything specific.
>
>
>  You just hope that he will do something useful someday with the core
>> codebase
>> or there is some concrete unit of work that you expect him to do?
>>
>
> First option.
>
>
>  Or maybe that person asked to be committer and has some specific
>> proposals for contribution to the code base?
>>
>
> I don't recall any person asking to be a committer. Since I'm one and
> started participating in these discussions, all committers and PMC members
> were invited, not a single asking for it.
>
> --
> Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
>
> ------------------------------**------------------------------**---------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@tapestry.**apache.org<de...@tapestry.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>


-- 
Dmitry Gusev

AnjLab Team
http://anjlab.com

Re: Where are all the commits?

[Thiago H de Paula Figueiredo <th...@gmail.com>]

I invite you to read http://apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#roles.  
Tapestry is an Apache Foundation project, so we follow the foundation  
rules and customs. And one of its core values is meritocracy. I see  
committer status, besides other things, as a way of rewarding someone's  
contributions for the project, of saying we trust that person to directly  
commit code when he/she has some code to contribute.

Contribution to an open source project goes beyond commiting code. It's  
also about community, writing in mailing lists, writing documentation,  
writing blog posts, evangelization, etc. Bob Harner, for example, made a  
huge improvement to one of the historically weak points of Tapestry, which  
is documentation. I don't recall seeing him doing any commit (please  
correct me if I'm wrong), but I do think he made a huge contribution to  
the Tapestry project and I'm very grateful to him.

I think I got invited for committer and PMC status for almost just my  
participation in mailing lists. I did just one code contribution, the  
initial URL rewriting code that was later improved by Robert Ziegler and  
ended up being deprecated and removed later in favor of the Link Rewriter  
API (and I'm not complaining, software is supposed to evolve over time).  
And I still think I'm contributing to the project.

I'll now answer your questions with my opinions and I'm not representing  
the project or any other people with my answers.

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 06:36:34 -0300, Dmitry Gusev <dm...@gmail.com>  
wrote:

> Still my question remains:
>
> What do you expect from a person when you invite him as a committer to
> Tapestry project?

I expect this person to contribute the project in some way.

> I mean in each specific case.

I don't expect anything specific.

> You just hope that he will do something useful someday with the core
> codebase
> or there is some concrete unit of work that you expect him to do?

First option.

> Or maybe that person asked to be committer and has some specific  
> proposals for contribution to the code base?

I don't recall any person asking to be a committer. Since I'm one and  
started participating in these discussions, all committers and PMC members  
were invited, not a single asking for it.

-- 
Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo

---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Where are all the commits?

[Martin Grigorov <mg...@apache.org>]

Hi Dmitry,

I'm not a member of Tapestry team but here is my view as Apache committer.

On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 12:36 PM, Dmitry Gusev <dm...@gmail.com>wrote:

> Still my question remains:
>
> What do you expect from a person when you invite him as a committer to
> Tapestry project?
>

Nothing. We just hope that (s)he will continue to help the best way (s)he
can.
A person gains the committer status for what (s)he has done before for the
project. Not for promising that (s)he will do something in the future.
This could be: helping other users, providing patches, writing docs/books,
...

Apache is volunteer based organization so you cannot expect anything from
anyone.
By inviting a new member the team hope that (s)he will be still active and
will help further with the development.
But the new member can change her/his job soon after joining and then stop
using the technology, so (s)he will not have
a reason to do new development but still can help in the forums and in
taking decisions about the future.


>
> I mean in each specific case.
>
> You just hope that he will do something useful someday with the core
> codebase
> or there is some concrete unit of work that you expect him to do?
>
> Or maybe that person asked to be committer and has some specific proposals
> for contribution to the code base?
>
>
> It is just unclear (to me) from the vote description what will the person
> do (or what he plan to do) as a committer?
>
> This maybe unclear because we don't have any roadmap with pool of tasks
> that should be implemented
> except for a bunch of long-living JIRA issues.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Kalle Korhonen
> <ka...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 5:56 PM, Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 2:06 PM, Dmitry Gusev <dm...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > Dmitry Gusev: +1 (non-binding)
> > > > I like seeing that new Tapestry committers appear,
> > > > but looking at git logs I see that (almost) the only core committer
> is
> > > > Howard.
> > > Well, I am the most invested in things.
> > >
> >
> > There's a lot of people in any community who talk the talk but typically
> > very few who walk the walk. I have a very high respect for Howard since
> > most of the time he'll write the code instead of talking about some
> changes
> > he'd like to have.
> >
> >
> > > > From this point of view, it appears to me that having Tapestry
> > committer
> > > > status means
> > > > you can apply patches, but not develop new functionality in core,
> > > > which I would expect from Tapestry committer when voting for him.
> > > No the problem is committers who are not committing. Tapestry is
> > > specifically designed so that it can support a wide number of
> committers
> > > with different skill sets: you don't have to be a bytecode wizard to
> make
> > > significant improvements to the code base. I know I'd appreciate the
> > help!
> > >
> >
> > Any committer can work anywhere in the codebase. In case of conflicts
> we'll
> > take a vote. But even if you tried, it's very hard to keep up with Howard
> > with plain number of commits. You might be interested in fixing your pet
> > peeve at some point but are you going to maintain interest in the project
> > year over year and review other people's commits while working on your
> > things? It's not that Howard is right all the time but by the time you've
> > made your case on the list, he's already incorporated your feedback,
> > refactored the code and added more tests. I've seen it happening multiple
> > times. Most devs are pretty happy with the status quo, that somebody is
> > doing the hard lifting for you or for them.
> >
> > > We can see that most of tapestry5 development now is third party
> > > > development
> > > > which occurs on GitHub and other separate repositories, resulting in
> a
> > > > tapestry-complement libraries,
> > > > like tapestry5-jquery, tynamo, stitch, tapestry-bootstrap and many
> > other
> > > > wonderful projects.
> > > > This is great, though, these projects stand aside from main tapestry
> > > > development,
> > > > and most of them appear outdated after new tapestry releases
> > > > because they released separately from tapestry core.
> > >
> >
> > I wouldn't say most but a successful project always creates a lively
> > ecosystem around it. Keeping your stuff in a support library separate
> from
> > the core has its benefits as well as its drawbacks. A smaller,
> independent
> > library can evolve much faster but as each of them is implemented for a
> > specific purpose, they'll typically drag behind and don't always support
> > the latest and greatest core release. Also, the bar for bringing in your
> > stuff to tapestry core is way higher than your typical run-of-the-mill
> > github project. As a co-founder and author of multiple Tynamo libraries I
> > can honestly say there's a reason why only one of the tynamo libraries
> have
> > "graduated" to tapestry core so far.
> >
> > > I'd really like to see more developers of those libraries as Tapestry
> > > > committers so that they
> > > > can support their own 3rd party libraries compatibilities as a part
> of
> > > main
> > > > tapestry development,
> > > > and may be hold tapestry core releases until all those libraries are
> > > > up-to-date with new tapestry release.
> > > >
> > >
> >
> > For most libraries, that's just not the right path. Being in the core
> > doesn't automatically mean they'd be somehow more supported. There needs
> to
> > be a general interest in a specific piece of code before it makes sense
> to
> > bring it to the core. If there's only one maintainer supporting the
> > library, it is far easier to maintain it outside the core, without having
> > to deal with the sheer size of the core, the unstability that other
> changes
> > cause, random test failures etc. The great thing about open source is
> that
> > in any given project, it's pretty easy to pick up the maintenance duties
> > and start sending sending patches if you want a library you care about to
> > be updated. Before you know it, you'll be the committer (and surprisingly
> > often, the only maintainer as well), with others asking you to start
> doing
> > stuff for them.
> >
> > Kalle
> >
> >
> >
> > > > On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 11:43 PM, Kalle Korhonen
> > > > <ka...@gmail.com>wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Lance Semmens (aka Lance Java) has been one of the most active
> > members
> > > on
> > > > > the user list for the past two years. I've personally committed a
> few
> > > > > patches from him and he is the maintainer of tapestry-stitch (
> > > > > https://github.com/uklance/tapestry-stitch/), a collection of
> sample
> > > > > components and concepts for Tapestry 5. Howard has spoke with him
> > > > privately
> > > > > and he's interested in joining as a committer. Vote to run for a
> > > minimum
> > > > of
> > > > > three days.
> > > > >
> > > > > Kalle Korhonen: +1 (non-binding)
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Dmitry Gusev
> > > >
> > > > AnjLab Team
> > > > http://anjlab.com
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Howard M. Lewis Ship
> > >
> > > Creator of Apache Tapestry
> > >
> > > The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to
> > > learn how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast!
> > >
> > > (971) 678-5210
> > > http://howardlewisship.com
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Dmitry Gusev
>
> AnjLab Team
> http://anjlab.com
>

Re: Where are all the commits?

[Dmitry Gusev <dm...@gmail.com>]

Still my question remains:

What do you expect from a person when you invite him as a committer to
Tapestry project?

I mean in each specific case.

You just hope that he will do something useful someday with the core
codebase
or there is some concrete unit of work that you expect him to do?

Or maybe that person asked to be committer and has some specific proposals
for contribution to the code base?


It is just unclear (to me) from the vote description what will the person
do (or what he plan to do) as a committer?

This maybe unclear because we don't have any roadmap with pool of tasks
that should be implemented
except for a bunch of long-living JIRA issues.



On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Kalle Korhonen
<ka...@gmail.com>wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 5:56 PM, Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 2:06 PM, Dmitry Gusev <dm...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > Dmitry Gusev: +1 (non-binding)
> > > I like seeing that new Tapestry committers appear,
> > > but looking at git logs I see that (almost) the only core committer is
> > > Howard.
> > Well, I am the most invested in things.
> >
>
> There's a lot of people in any community who talk the talk but typically
> very few who walk the walk. I have a very high respect for Howard since
> most of the time he'll write the code instead of talking about some changes
> he'd like to have.
>
>
> > > From this point of view, it appears to me that having Tapestry
> committer
> > > status means
> > > you can apply patches, but not develop new functionality in core,
> > > which I would expect from Tapestry committer when voting for him.
> > No the problem is committers who are not committing. Tapestry is
> > specifically designed so that it can support a wide number of committers
> > with different skill sets: you don't have to be a bytecode wizard to make
> > significant improvements to the code base. I know I'd appreciate the
> help!
> >
>
> Any committer can work anywhere in the codebase. In case of conflicts we'll
> take a vote. But even if you tried, it's very hard to keep up with Howard
> with plain number of commits. You might be interested in fixing your pet
> peeve at some point but are you going to maintain interest in the project
> year over year and review other people's commits while working on your
> things? It's not that Howard is right all the time but by the time you've
> made your case on the list, he's already incorporated your feedback,
> refactored the code and added more tests. I've seen it happening multiple
> times. Most devs are pretty happy with the status quo, that somebody is
> doing the hard lifting for you or for them.
>
> > We can see that most of tapestry5 development now is third party
> > > development
> > > which occurs on GitHub and other separate repositories, resulting in a
> > > tapestry-complement libraries,
> > > like tapestry5-jquery, tynamo, stitch, tapestry-bootstrap and many
> other
> > > wonderful projects.
> > > This is great, though, these projects stand aside from main tapestry
> > > development,
> > > and most of them appear outdated after new tapestry releases
> > > because they released separately from tapestry core.
> >
>
> I wouldn't say most but a successful project always creates a lively
> ecosystem around it. Keeping your stuff in a support library separate from
> the core has its benefits as well as its drawbacks. A smaller, independent
> library can evolve much faster but as each of them is implemented for a
> specific purpose, they'll typically drag behind and don't always support
> the latest and greatest core release. Also, the bar for bringing in your
> stuff to tapestry core is way higher than your typical run-of-the-mill
> github project. As a co-founder and author of multiple Tynamo libraries I
> can honestly say there's a reason why only one of the tynamo libraries have
> "graduated" to tapestry core so far.
>
> > I'd really like to see more developers of those libraries as Tapestry
> > > committers so that they
> > > can support their own 3rd party libraries compatibilities as a part of
> > main
> > > tapestry development,
> > > and may be hold tapestry core releases until all those libraries are
> > > up-to-date with new tapestry release.
> > >
> >
>
> For most libraries, that's just not the right path. Being in the core
> doesn't automatically mean they'd be somehow more supported. There needs to
> be a general interest in a specific piece of code before it makes sense to
> bring it to the core. If there's only one maintainer supporting the
> library, it is far easier to maintain it outside the core, without having
> to deal with the sheer size of the core, the unstability that other changes
> cause, random test failures etc. The great thing about open source is that
> in any given project, it's pretty easy to pick up the maintenance duties
> and start sending sending patches if you want a library you care about to
> be updated. Before you know it, you'll be the committer (and surprisingly
> often, the only maintainer as well), with others asking you to start doing
> stuff for them.
>
> Kalle
>
>
>
> > > On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 11:43 PM, Kalle Korhonen
> > > <ka...@gmail.com>wrote:
> > >
> > > > Lance Semmens (aka Lance Java) has been one of the most active
> members
> > on
> > > > the user list for the past two years. I've personally committed a few
> > > > patches from him and he is the maintainer of tapestry-stitch (
> > > > https://github.com/uklance/tapestry-stitch/), a collection of sample
> > > > components and concepts for Tapestry 5. Howard has spoke with him
> > > privately
> > > > and he's interested in joining as a committer. Vote to run for a
> > minimum
> > > of
> > > > three days.
> > > >
> > > > Kalle Korhonen: +1 (non-binding)
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Dmitry Gusev
> > >
> > > AnjLab Team
> > > http://anjlab.com
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Howard M. Lewis Ship
> >
> > Creator of Apache Tapestry
> >
> > The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to
> > learn how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast!
> >
> > (971) 678-5210
> > http://howardlewisship.com
> >
>



-- 
Dmitry Gusev

AnjLab Team
http://anjlab.com

Re: Where are all the commits?

[Kalle Korhonen <ka...@gmail.com>]

On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 5:56 PM, Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 2:06 PM, Dmitry Gusev <dm...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Dmitry Gusev: +1 (non-binding)
> > I like seeing that new Tapestry committers appear,
> > but looking at git logs I see that (almost) the only core committer is
> > Howard.
> Well, I am the most invested in things.
>

There's a lot of people in any community who talk the talk but typically
very few who walk the walk. I have a very high respect for Howard since
most of the time he'll write the code instead of talking about some changes
he'd like to have.


> > From this point of view, it appears to me that having Tapestry committer
> > status means
> > you can apply patches, but not develop new functionality in core,
> > which I would expect from Tapestry committer when voting for him.
> No the problem is committers who are not committing. Tapestry is
> specifically designed so that it can support a wide number of committers
> with different skill sets: you don't have to be a bytecode wizard to make
> significant improvements to the code base. I know I'd appreciate the help!
>

Any committer can work anywhere in the codebase. In case of conflicts we'll
take a vote. But even if you tried, it's very hard to keep up with Howard
with plain number of commits. You might be interested in fixing your pet
peeve at some point but are you going to maintain interest in the project
year over year and review other people's commits while working on your
things? It's not that Howard is right all the time but by the time you've
made your case on the list, he's already incorporated your feedback,
refactored the code and added more tests. I've seen it happening multiple
times. Most devs are pretty happy with the status quo, that somebody is
doing the hard lifting for you or for them.

> We can see that most of tapestry5 development now is third party
> > development
> > which occurs on GitHub and other separate repositories, resulting in a
> > tapestry-complement libraries,
> > like tapestry5-jquery, tynamo, stitch, tapestry-bootstrap and many other
> > wonderful projects.
> > This is great, though, these projects stand aside from main tapestry
> > development,
> > and most of them appear outdated after new tapestry releases
> > because they released separately from tapestry core.
>

I wouldn't say most but a successful project always creates a lively
ecosystem around it. Keeping your stuff in a support library separate from
the core has its benefits as well as its drawbacks. A smaller, independent
library can evolve much faster but as each of them is implemented for a
specific purpose, they'll typically drag behind and don't always support
the latest and greatest core release. Also, the bar for bringing in your
stuff to tapestry core is way higher than your typical run-of-the-mill
github project. As a co-founder and author of multiple Tynamo libraries I
can honestly say there's a reason why only one of the tynamo libraries have
"graduated" to tapestry core so far.

> I'd really like to see more developers of those libraries as Tapestry
> > committers so that they
> > can support their own 3rd party libraries compatibilities as a part of
> main
> > tapestry development,
> > and may be hold tapestry core releases until all those libraries are
> > up-to-date with new tapestry release.
> >
>

For most libraries, that's just not the right path. Being in the core
doesn't automatically mean they'd be somehow more supported. There needs to
be a general interest in a specific piece of code before it makes sense to
bring it to the core. If there's only one maintainer supporting the
library, it is far easier to maintain it outside the core, without having
to deal with the sheer size of the core, the unstability that other changes
cause, random test failures etc. The great thing about open source is that
in any given project, it's pretty easy to pick up the maintenance duties
and start sending sending patches if you want a library you care about to
be updated. Before you know it, you'll be the committer (and surprisingly
often, the only maintainer as well), with others asking you to start doing
stuff for them.

Kalle



> > On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 11:43 PM, Kalle Korhonen
> > <ka...@gmail.com>wrote:
> >
> > > Lance Semmens (aka Lance Java) has been one of the most active members
> on
> > > the user list for the past two years. I've personally committed a few
> > > patches from him and he is the maintainer of tapestry-stitch (
> > > https://github.com/uklance/tapestry-stitch/), a collection of sample
> > > components and concepts for Tapestry 5. Howard has spoke with him
> > privately
> > > and he's interested in joining as a committer. Vote to run for a
> minimum
> > of
> > > three days.
> > >
> > > Kalle Korhonen: +1 (non-binding)
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Dmitry Gusev
> >
> > AnjLab Team
> > http://anjlab.com
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Howard M. Lewis Ship
>
> Creator of Apache Tapestry
>
> The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to
> learn how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast!
>
> (971) 678-5210
> http://howardlewisship.com
>