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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Matt Benson <gu...@yahoo.com> on 2008/01/31 20:20:29 UTC
Multiple hats for members wrt a podling
I'm looking for general feedback about the group's
perception of incubated projects and the number of
roles that may be assumed by a foundation member in
one. Can I view RAT as an example that it would be
considered kosher for a member to be both champion of
and an initial committer on a given proposal? And in
contrast, that it _would_ be considered a conflict of
interest/logistical impossibility for a committer to
be a mentor?
Thanks,
Matt
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Re: Multiple hats for members wrt a podling
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On Feb 1, 2008 6:00 AM, William A. Rowe, Jr. <wr...@rowe-clan.net> wrote:
> Craig L Russell wrote:
> > Hi Matt,
> >
> > I don't see a conflict for incubating projects when members assume
> > multiple roles, including Champion, Mentor, and Committer. If a Champion
> > is not a Mentor or Committer, then it's pure altruism.
(or you're a serial shiny, shiny open source startup junky ;-)
> There's only one conflict, and the 'voting' thread hints at this.
>
> If you are one of *many* initial committers, but throw your IPMC vote
> around, you win no respect and undermine community.
+1
> But as only *one* of many committers, and treating your vote as equal
> to each of your fellow committers, you can balance this fairly.
+1
> Just be sure to call out when you are throwing out an IPMC vote on the
> wisdom of essential ASF process and policy, vs. when your vote is simply
> a PPMC vote on one of many ways of doing things technically or process
> wise. And there's no real issue if you do this fairly.
ensuring that you appear to act fairly can prevent you acting as you
otherwise would. it's much harder to have a good design ding-dong
unless everyone is an equal peer. if you're a committer and a mentor
then you're going to have to be willing to step back and listen.
- robert
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Re: Multiple hats for members wrt a podling
Posted by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
Craig L Russell wrote:
> Hi Matt,
>
> I don't see a conflict for incubating projects when members assume
> multiple roles, including Champion, Mentor, and Committer. If a Champion
> is not a Mentor or Committer, then it's pure altruism.
There's only one conflict, and the 'voting' thread hints at this.
If you are one of *many* initial committers, but throw your IPMC vote
around, you win no respect and undermine community.
But as only *one* of many committers, and treating your vote as equal
to each of your fellow committers, you can balance this fairly.
Just be sure to call out when you are throwing out an IPMC vote on the
wisdom of essential ASF process and policy, vs. when your vote is simply
a PPMC vote on one of many ways of doing things technically or process
wise. And there's no real issue if you do this fairly.
Bill
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Re: Multiple hats for members wrt a podling
Posted by Craig L Russell <Cr...@Sun.COM>.
Hi Matt,
I don't see a conflict for incubating projects when members assume
multiple roles, including Champion, Mentor, and Committer. If a
Champion is not a Mentor or Committer, then it's pure altruism.
Craig
On Jan 31, 2008, at 11:20 AM, Matt Benson wrote:
> I'm looking for general feedback about the group's
> perception of incubated projects and the number of
> roles that may be assumed by a foundation member in
> one. Can I view RAT as an example that it would be
> considered kosher for a member to be both champion of
> and an initial committer on a given proposal? And in
> contrast, that it _would_ be considered a conflict of
> interest/logistical impossibility for a committer to
> be a mentor?
>
> Thanks,
> Matt
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
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>
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>
Craig Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
Re: Multiple hats for members wrt a podling
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On Jan 31, 2008 7:20 PM, Matt Benson <gu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I'm looking for general feedback about the group's
> perception of incubated projects and the number of
> roles that may be assumed by a foundation member in
> one. Can I view RAT as an example
i knew that this would come up sooner or later :-)
i had intended to bully someone into championing it for me but that
seemed a tad perverse and wasteful
in fact RAT is an even more extreme: since the incubator is lacking
good documentation for the bootstrap process, i've been doing
absolutely everything (including as much infra as possible) and
writing it all up
but then again, RAT is a very unusual project. for example, it's rare
to find a proposal where an overwhelming majority of incoming
committers are Apache Members and the rest long term contributors
(five plus years).
> that it would be
> considered kosher for a member to be both champion of
> and an initial committer on a given proposal?
yes but i wouldn't recommend it as a model
> And in
> contrast, that it _would_ be considered a conflict of
> interest/logistical impossibility for a committer to
> be a mentor?
not at all an impossibility
but i would strongly discourage this model
- robert
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Re: Multiple hats for members wrt a podling
Posted by Roland Weber <os...@dubioso.net>.
Hi Matt,
> I'm looking for general feedback about the group's
> perception of incubated projects and the number of
> roles that may be assumed by a foundation member in
> one. Can I view RAT as an example that it would be
> considered kosher for a member to be both champion of
> and an initial committer on a given proposal? And in
> contrast, that it _would_ be considered a conflict of
> interest/logistical impossibility for a committer to
> be a mentor?
I don't see why a champion or mentor shouldn't be
allowed to be a committer. And if they are already
working on the project by the time it enters
incubation, why should they not be on the initial
list of committers?
[1] mentions that mentors must earn committership
even though they are given karma for administration
purposes. It also mentions that mentors can be on the
initial list of committers, but are not required to.
Maybe it would feel a bit queer if a mentor voted
him- or herself in as a committer, but even then it
would take other binding votes.
cheers,
Roland
[1]
http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Roles_and_Responsibilities.html#Committers
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Re: Multiple hats for members wrt a podling
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On Jan 31, 2008 8:27 PM, Yoav Shapira <yo...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Jan 31, 2008 2:36 PM, Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Jan 31, 2008 9:20 PM, Matt Benson <gu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > I'm looking for general feedback about the group's
> > > perception of incubated projects and the number of
> > > roles that may be assumed by a foundation member in
> > > one.
> >
> > I don't see a problem with people wearing many hats. I'm both a mentor
> > and a committer of the Tika podling, and so far I've experienced no
> > cases where the roles would be in a conflict.
>
> +1, and by now I think I have a pretty healthy amount of incubated
> projects as experience ;)
IMHO the proviso is that when wearing multiple hat's it's important
take a little step back and don't drive as hard. conversely, if you
want to drive hard then use judo politics and take off the high hat.
- robert
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Re: Multiple hats for members wrt a podling
Posted by Matt Benson <gu...@yahoo.com>.
Thanks all for the responses received so far (as well
as any yet to come)!
-Matt
--- Yoav Shapira <yo...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Jan 31, 2008 2:36 PM, Jukka Zitting
> <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Jan 31, 2008 9:20 PM, Matt Benson
> <gu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > I'm looking for general feedback about the
> group's
> > > perception of incubated projects and the number
> of
> > > roles that may be assumed by a foundation member
> in
> > > one.
> >
> > I don't see a problem with people wearing many
> hats. I'm both a mentor
> > and a committer of the Tika podling, and so far
> I've experienced no
> > cases where the roles would be in a conflict.
>
> +1, and by now I think I have a pretty healthy
> amount of incubated
> projects as experience ;)
>
> Yoav
>
>
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Re: Multiple hats for members wrt a podling
Posted by Yoav Shapira <yo...@apache.org>.
On Jan 31, 2008 2:36 PM, Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 31, 2008 9:20 PM, Matt Benson <gu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > I'm looking for general feedback about the group's
> > perception of incubated projects and the number of
> > roles that may be assumed by a foundation member in
> > one.
>
> I don't see a problem with people wearing many hats. I'm both a mentor
> and a committer of the Tika podling, and so far I've experienced no
> cases where the roles would be in a conflict.
+1, and by now I think I have a pretty healthy amount of incubated
projects as experience ;)
Yoav
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Re: Multiple hats for members wrt a podling
Posted by Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
On Jan 31, 2008 9:20 PM, Matt Benson <gu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I'm looking for general feedback about the group's
> perception of incubated projects and the number of
> roles that may be assumed by a foundation member in
> one.
I don't see a problem with people wearing many hats. I'm both a mentor
and a committer of the Tika podling, and so far I've experienced no
cases where the roles would be in a conflict.
BR,
Jukka Zitting
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