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Posted to dev@harmony.apache.org by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com> on 2006/07/17 02:56:25 UTC
[general] Sun's permission to use exception messages and toString()
formats
Sun, via Graham Hamilton (my favorite Sun Fellow), has stated the
following :
Sun has no objections to Harmony (or other TCK-compliant Java SE
implementations) using the same exception messages and toString
formats as the Sun implementation of Java SE.
Further, as a personal comment, he added :
Keep in mind that since these messages and formats are not part of
the Java SE specifications, Sun may occasionally change the messages
and formats it uses. We tend to be cautious in doing that, so as
not to impact applications, but it isn't ruled out.
Also, it should be noted that in the APIs where Doug Lea or Josh Bloch
had a major influence, there's a good change that the toString() format
*is* defined in the spec. For example, see HashMap (via AbstractMap).
The point is that while it hasn't been done consistently throughout the
entire API, it's well understood by some that people depend on these
things, and one should be careful about changing them.
geir
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Re: [general] Sun's permission to use exception messages and toString()
formats
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>.
Richard Liang wrote:
> Good news! So we can output the same message if possible. Not sure
> whether we need to update all of us toStrings? Any comments?
I think it's something we should do, although not drop everything to do
it. I'd like to see if simply start listing (say in the wiki) the
classes that have correct toString() implementations as per the RI/spec,
and then people can lazily fix over time...
geir
>
> Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
>> Sun, via Graham Hamilton (my favorite Sun Fellow), has stated the
>> following :
>>
>> Sun has no objections to Harmony (or other TCK-compliant Java SE
>> implementations) using the same exception messages and toString
>> formats as the Sun implementation of Java SE.
>>
>> Further, as a personal comment, he added :
>>
>> Keep in mind that since these messages and formats are not part of
>> the Java SE specifications, Sun may occasionally change the messages
>> and formats it uses. We tend to be cautious in doing that, so as
>> not to impact applications, but it isn't ruled out.
>>
>> Also, it should be noted that in the APIs where Doug Lea or Josh Bloch
>> had a major influence, there's a good change that the toString() format
>> *is* defined in the spec. For example, see HashMap (via AbstractMap).
>> The point is that while it hasn't been done consistently throughout the
>> entire API, it's well understood by some that people depend on these
>> things, and one should be careful about changing them.
>>
>> geir
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Terms of use : http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/mailing.html
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>>
>>
>>
>
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Re: [general] Sun's permission to use exception messages and toString()
formats
Posted by Richard Liang <ri...@gmail.com>.
Agree :-)
Alexey Petrenko wrote:
> I do not think that we really need to rewrite all the toString messages.
> I suggest to update them as needed. For example if somebody will
> discover that some important application depends on it...
>
> SY, Alexey
>
> 2006/7/17, Richard Liang <ri...@gmail.com>:
>> Good news! So we can output the same message if possible. Not sure
>> whether we need to update all of us toStrings? Any comments?
>>
>> Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
>> > Sun, via Graham Hamilton (my favorite Sun Fellow), has stated the
>> > following :
>> >
>> > Sun has no objections to Harmony (or other TCK-compliant Java SE
>> > implementations) using the same exception messages and toString
>> > formats as the Sun implementation of Java SE.
>> >
>> > Further, as a personal comment, he added :
>> >
>> > Keep in mind that since these messages and formats are not part of
>> > the Java SE specifications, Sun may occasionally change the
>> messages
>> > and formats it uses. We tend to be cautious in doing that, so as
>> > not to impact applications, but it isn't ruled out.
>> >
>> > Also, it should be noted that in the APIs where Doug Lea or Josh Bloch
>> > had a major influence, there's a good change that the toString()
>> format
>> > *is* defined in the spec. For example, see HashMap (via AbstractMap).
>> > The point is that while it hasn't been done consistently throughout
>> the
>> > entire API, it's well understood by some that people depend on these
>> > things, and one should be careful about changing them.
>> >
>> > geir
>> >
>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Terms of use : http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/mailing.html
>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: harmony-dev-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> > For additional commands, e-mail: harmony-dev-help@incubator.apache.org
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> --
>> Richard Liang
>> China Software Development Lab, IBM
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
>>
>
>
--
Richard Liang
China Software Development Lab, IBM
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Re: [general] Sun's permission to use exception messages and toString() formats
Posted by Sergey Soldatov <se...@gmail.com>.
Sounds reasonable.
On 7/17/06, Alexey Petrenko <al...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I do not think that we really need to rewrite all the toString messages.
> I suggest to update them as needed. For example if somebody will
> discover that some important application depends on it...
>
> SY, Alexey
>
> 2006/7/17, Richard Liang <ri...@gmail.com>:
> > Good news! So we can output the same message if possible. Not sure
> > whether we need to update all of us toStrings? Any comments?
> >
> > Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
> > > Sun, via Graham Hamilton (my favorite Sun Fellow), has stated the
> > > following :
> > >
> > > Sun has no objections to Harmony (or other TCK-compliant Java SE
> > > implementations) using the same exception messages and toString
> > > formats as the Sun implementation of Java SE.
> > >
> > > Further, as a personal comment, he added :
> > >
> > > Keep in mind that since these messages and formats are not part of
> > > the Java SE specifications, Sun may occasionally change the
> messages
> > > and formats it uses. We tend to be cautious in doing that, so as
> > > not to impact applications, but it isn't ruled out.
> > >
> > > Also, it should be noted that in the APIs where Doug Lea or Josh Bloch
> > > had a major influence, there's a good change that the toString()
> format
> > > *is* defined in the spec. For example, see HashMap (via AbstractMap).
> > > The point is that while it hasn't been done consistently throughout
> the
> > > entire API, it's well understood by some that people depend on these
> > > things, and one should be careful about changing them.
> > >
> > > geir
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Terms of use : http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/mailing.html
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: harmony-dev-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: harmony-dev-help@incubator.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Richard Liang
> > China Software Development Lab, IBM
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Terms of use : http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/mailing.html
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: harmony-dev-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: harmony-dev-help@incubator.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Alexey A. Petrenko
> Intel Middleware Products Division
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
--
Sergey Soldatov
Intel Middleware Products Division
Re: [general] Sun's permission to use exception messages and toString()
formats
Posted by Richard Liang <ri...@gmail.com>.
Alexey Varlamov wrote:
> 2006/8/7, Mikhail Loenko <ml...@gmail.com>:
>> 2006/8/7, Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>:
>> >
>> >
>> > Mikhail Loenko wrote:
>> > > Does it mean that we are revisiting our agreement on "more
>> helpful error
>> > > messages"? [1,2]
>> >
>> > They are orthogonal. I think that Mark was right on that our message
>> > all over should be helpful, but then when we are throwing
>> exceptions out
>> > of standard classes, we need to take some care.
>>
>> sorry, I did not catch. Most of the exceptions even originating in
>> some internal
>> classes are finally go to a user app over some standard class.
>>
>> >
>> > >
>> > > Should we now roll back for example Harmony-250?
>> >
>> > I don't think so - did it actually undo RI-like exception messages, or
>> > just improve some?
>>
>> In some cases RI throws someting like "invalid arguments" instead of
>> throwing e.g. "invalid A" when arg A is invalid and "invalid B" when
>> arg B
>> is invalid.
>>
>> So before the fix we like RI threw one message and now we throw
>> different
>> messages:
>> - if ((key == null) || (key.length == 0) || (algorithm ==
>> null)) {
>> - throw BADPARAMS_EXC;
>> - }
>> + if (algorithm == null) throw ALG_NULL_EXC;
>> + if (key == null) throw KEY_NULL_EXC;
>> + if (key.length == 0) throw KEY_TOO_SHORT_EXC;
>>
>
> Gentlemen,
>
> For the cited patch, I consider Harmony behavior much more user
> friendly and would happily vote for retaining such fixes. I'd hardly
> imagine sane application depending on that message, while everyday
> users would benefit from detailed messages. Let's listen to voice of
> common sense occasionally ;)
> Just my 0.02$
>
Yes. We're allowed to output the same exception messages. But if you we
think the messages of RI are not helpful or we could give more helpful
messages to users, we could output different messages. Thanks a lot.
Best regards,
Richard.
> --
> Alexey
>
> [snip]
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
--
Richard Liang
China Software Development Lab, IBM
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Re: [general] Sun's permission to use exception messages and toString() formats
Posted by Alexey Varlamov <al...@gmail.com>.
2006/8/7, Mikhail Loenko <ml...@gmail.com>:
> 2006/8/7, Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>:
> >
> >
> > Mikhail Loenko wrote:
> > > Does it mean that we are revisiting our agreement on "more helpful error
> > > messages"? [1,2]
> >
> > They are orthogonal. I think that Mark was right on that our message
> > all over should be helpful, but then when we are throwing exceptions out
> > of standard classes, we need to take some care.
>
> sorry, I did not catch. Most of the exceptions even originating in
> some internal
> classes are finally go to a user app over some standard class.
>
> >
> > >
> > > Should we now roll back for example Harmony-250?
> >
> > I don't think so - did it actually undo RI-like exception messages, or
> > just improve some?
>
> In some cases RI throws someting like "invalid arguments" instead of
> throwing e.g. "invalid A" when arg A is invalid and "invalid B" when arg B
> is invalid.
>
> So before the fix we like RI threw one message and now we throw different
> messages:
> - if ((key == null) || (key.length == 0) || (algorithm == null)) {
> - throw BADPARAMS_EXC;
> - }
> + if (algorithm == null) throw ALG_NULL_EXC;
> + if (key == null) throw KEY_NULL_EXC;
> + if (key.length == 0) throw KEY_TOO_SHORT_EXC;
>
Gentlemen,
For the cited patch, I consider Harmony behavior much more user
friendly and would happily vote for retaining such fixes. I'd hardly
imagine sane application depending on that message, while everyday
users would benefit from detailed messages. Let's listen to voice of
common sense occasionally ;)
Just my 0.02$
--
Alexey
[snip]
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Re: [general] Sun's permission to use exception messages and toString() formats
Posted by Mikhail Loenko <ml...@gmail.com>.
2006/8/7, Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>:
>
>
> Mikhail Loenko wrote:
> > Does it mean that we are revisiting our agreement on "more helpful error
> > messages"? [1,2]
>
> They are orthogonal. I think that Mark was right on that our message
> all over should be helpful, but then when we are throwing exceptions out
> of standard classes, we need to take some care.
sorry, I did not catch. Most of the exceptions even originating in
some internal
classes are finally go to a user app over some standard class.
>
> >
> > Should we now roll back for example Harmony-250?
>
> I don't think so - did it actually undo RI-like exception messages, or
> just improve some?
In some cases RI throws someting like "invalid arguments" instead of
throwing e.g. "invalid A" when arg A is invalid and "invalid B" when arg B
is invalid.
So before the fix we like RI threw one message and now we throw different
messages:
- if ((key == null) || (key.length == 0) || (algorithm == null)) {
- throw BADPARAMS_EXC;
- }
+ if (algorithm == null) throw ALG_NULL_EXC;
+ if (key == null) throw KEY_NULL_EXC;
+ if (key.length == 0) throw KEY_TOO_SHORT_EXC;
Thanks,
Mikhail
>
> geir
>
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Mikhail
> >
> > [1]
> > http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/subcomponents/classlibrary/agreements.html
> >
> > [2]
> > http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-harmony-dev/200603.mbox/%3cfcb9f9160603240835i792de7dobabfc43a44e7c752@mail.gmail.com%3e
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 2006/7/19, Tim Ellison <t....@gmail.com>:
> >> Mikhail Loenko wrote:
> >> > I think all that means that we will accept patches that fix the
> >> messages
> >> > and
> >> > toStrings
> >>
> >> Sure, if people want to spend their time doing that then of course we
> >> will be grateful.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Tim
> >>
> >>
> >> > 2006/7/17, Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>:
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Alexey Petrenko wrote:
> >> >> > I do not think that we really need to rewrite all the toString
> >> >> messages.
> >> >> > I suggest to update them as needed. For example if somebody will
> >> >> > discover that some important application depends on it...
> >> >>
> >> >> The problem with that approach is that you are letting your users find
> >> >> problems that you actually know are there.
> >> >>
> >> >> As I said in another note, I don't think we should drop everything
> >> to do
> >> >> this, but we *should* agree to do it lazily, track what has been
> >> fixed,
> >> >> and offer it as something that new people who want to get engaged
> >> in the
> >> >> project can do as well.
> >> >>
> >> >> geir
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > SY, Alexey
> >> >> >
> >> >> > 2006/7/17, Richard Liang <ri...@gmail.com>:
> >> >> >> Good news! So we can output the same message if possible. Not sure
> >> >> >> whether we need to update all of us toStrings? Any comments?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
> >> >> >> > Sun, via Graham Hamilton (my favorite Sun Fellow), has stated the
> >> >> >> > following :
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Sun has no objections to Harmony (or other TCK-compliant
> >> Java SE
> >> >> >> > implementations) using the same exception messages and
> >> toString
> >> >> >> > formats as the Sun implementation of Java SE.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Further, as a personal comment, he added :
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Keep in mind that since these messages and formats are not
> >> >> part of
> >> >> >> > the Java SE specifications, Sun may occasionally change the
> >> >> >> messages
> >> >> >> > and formats it uses. We tend to be cautious in doing that,
> >> >> so as
> >> >> >> > not to impact applications, but it isn't ruled out.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Also, it should be noted that in the APIs where Doug Lea or Josh
> >> >> Bloch
> >> >> >> > had a major influence, there's a good change that the toString()
> >> >> format
> >> >> >> > *is* defined in the spec. For example, see HashMap (via
> >> >> AbstractMap).
> >> >> >> > The point is that while it hasn't been done consistently
> >> >> throughout the
> >> >> >> > entire API, it's well understood by some that people depend on
> >> these
> >> >> >> > things, and one should be careful about changing them.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > geir
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> >> > Terms of use : http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/mailing.html
> >> >> >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> >> harmony-dev-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> >> >> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> >> >> harmony-dev-help@incubator.apache.org
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> --
> >> >> >> Richard Liang
> >> >> >> China Software Development Lab, IBM
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> >> Terms of use : http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/mailing.html
> >> >> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> >> harmony-dev-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> >> >> For additional commands, e-mail:
> >> harmony-dev-help@incubator.apache.org
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> Terms of use : http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/mailing.html
> >> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: harmony-dev-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> >> For additional commands, e-mail: harmony-dev-help@incubator.apache.org
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > Terms of use : http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/mailing.html
> >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: harmony-dev-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> > For additional commands, e-mail: harmony-dev-help@incubator.apache.org
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> Tim Ellison (t.p.ellison@gmail.com)
> >> IBM Java technology centre, UK.
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >>
> >>
> >
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> >
> >
> >
>
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Re: [general] Sun's permission to use exception messages and toString()
formats
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>.
Mikhail Loenko wrote:
> Does it mean that we are revisiting our agreement on "more helpful error
> messages"? [1,2]
They are orthogonal. I think that Mark was right on that our message
all over should be helpful, but then when we are throwing exceptions out
of standard classes, we need to take some care.
>
> Should we now roll back for example Harmony-250?
I don't think so - did it actually undo RI-like exception messages, or
just improve some?
geir
>
> Thanks,
> Mikhail
>
> [1]
> http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/subcomponents/classlibrary/agreements.html
>
> [2]
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-harmony-dev/200603.mbox/%3cfcb9f9160603240835i792de7dobabfc43a44e7c752@mail.gmail.com%3e
>
>
>
>
> 2006/7/19, Tim Ellison <t....@gmail.com>:
>> Mikhail Loenko wrote:
>> > I think all that means that we will accept patches that fix the
>> messages
>> > and
>> > toStrings
>>
>> Sure, if people want to spend their time doing that then of course we
>> will be grateful.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Tim
>>
>>
>> > 2006/7/17, Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Alexey Petrenko wrote:
>> >> > I do not think that we really need to rewrite all the toString
>> >> messages.
>> >> > I suggest to update them as needed. For example if somebody will
>> >> > discover that some important application depends on it...
>> >>
>> >> The problem with that approach is that you are letting your users find
>> >> problems that you actually know are there.
>> >>
>> >> As I said in another note, I don't think we should drop everything
>> to do
>> >> this, but we *should* agree to do it lazily, track what has been
>> fixed,
>> >> and offer it as something that new people who want to get engaged
>> in the
>> >> project can do as well.
>> >>
>> >> geir
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > SY, Alexey
>> >> >
>> >> > 2006/7/17, Richard Liang <ri...@gmail.com>:
>> >> >> Good news! So we can output the same message if possible. Not sure
>> >> >> whether we need to update all of us toStrings? Any comments?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
>> >> >> > Sun, via Graham Hamilton (my favorite Sun Fellow), has stated the
>> >> >> > following :
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Sun has no objections to Harmony (or other TCK-compliant
>> Java SE
>> >> >> > implementations) using the same exception messages and
>> toString
>> >> >> > formats as the Sun implementation of Java SE.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Further, as a personal comment, he added :
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Keep in mind that since these messages and formats are not
>> >> part of
>> >> >> > the Java SE specifications, Sun may occasionally change the
>> >> >> messages
>> >> >> > and formats it uses. We tend to be cautious in doing that,
>> >> so as
>> >> >> > not to impact applications, but it isn't ruled out.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Also, it should be noted that in the APIs where Doug Lea or Josh
>> >> Bloch
>> >> >> > had a major influence, there's a good change that the toString()
>> >> format
>> >> >> > *is* defined in the spec. For example, see HashMap (via
>> >> AbstractMap).
>> >> >> > The point is that while it hasn't been done consistently
>> >> throughout the
>> >> >> > entire API, it's well understood by some that people depend on
>> these
>> >> >> > things, and one should be careful about changing them.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > geir
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >> > Terms of use : http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/mailing.html
>> >> >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>> harmony-dev-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> >> >> > For additional commands, e-mail:
>> >> harmony-dev-help@incubator.apache.org
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> Richard Liang
>> >> >> China Software Development Lab, IBM
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >> Terms of use : http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/mailing.html
>> >> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>> harmony-dev-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> >> >> For additional commands, e-mail:
>> harmony-dev-help@incubator.apache.org
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> Terms of use : http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/mailing.html
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>> >> For additional commands, e-mail: harmony-dev-help@incubator.apache.org
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> >
>> >
>>
>> --
>>
>> Tim Ellison (t.p.ellison@gmail.com)
>> IBM Java technology centre, UK.
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [general] Sun's permission to use exception messages and toString() formats
Posted by Mikhail Loenko <ml...@gmail.com>.
Does it mean that we are revisiting our agreement on "more helpful error
messages"? [1,2]
Should we now roll back for example Harmony-250?
Thanks,
Mikhail
[1] http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/subcomponents/classlibrary/agreements.html
[2] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-harmony-dev/200603.mbox/%3cfcb9f9160603240835i792de7dobabfc43a44e7c752@mail.gmail.com%3e
2006/7/19, Tim Ellison <t....@gmail.com>:
> Mikhail Loenko wrote:
> > I think all that means that we will accept patches that fix the messages
> > and
> > toStrings
>
> Sure, if people want to spend their time doing that then of course we
> will be grateful.
>
> Regards,
> Tim
>
>
> > 2006/7/17, Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>:
> >>
> >>
> >> Alexey Petrenko wrote:
> >> > I do not think that we really need to rewrite all the toString
> >> messages.
> >> > I suggest to update them as needed. For example if somebody will
> >> > discover that some important application depends on it...
> >>
> >> The problem with that approach is that you are letting your users find
> >> problems that you actually know are there.
> >>
> >> As I said in another note, I don't think we should drop everything to do
> >> this, but we *should* agree to do it lazily, track what has been fixed,
> >> and offer it as something that new people who want to get engaged in the
> >> project can do as well.
> >>
> >> geir
> >>
> >> >
> >> > SY, Alexey
> >> >
> >> > 2006/7/17, Richard Liang <ri...@gmail.com>:
> >> >> Good news! So we can output the same message if possible. Not sure
> >> >> whether we need to update all of us toStrings? Any comments?
> >> >>
> >> >> Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
> >> >> > Sun, via Graham Hamilton (my favorite Sun Fellow), has stated the
> >> >> > following :
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Sun has no objections to Harmony (or other TCK-compliant Java SE
> >> >> > implementations) using the same exception messages and toString
> >> >> > formats as the Sun implementation of Java SE.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Further, as a personal comment, he added :
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Keep in mind that since these messages and formats are not
> >> part of
> >> >> > the Java SE specifications, Sun may occasionally change the
> >> >> messages
> >> >> > and formats it uses. We tend to be cautious in doing that,
> >> so as
> >> >> > not to impact applications, but it isn't ruled out.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Also, it should be noted that in the APIs where Doug Lea or Josh
> >> Bloch
> >> >> > had a major influence, there's a good change that the toString()
> >> format
> >> >> > *is* defined in the spec. For example, see HashMap (via
> >> AbstractMap).
> >> >> > The point is that while it hasn't been done consistently
> >> throughout the
> >> >> > entire API, it's well understood by some that people depend on these
> >> >> > things, and one should be careful about changing them.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > geir
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> > Terms of use : http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/mailing.html
> >> >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: harmony-dev-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> >> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> >> harmony-dev-help@incubator.apache.org
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> Richard Liang
> >> >> China Software Development Lab, IBM
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> Terms of use : http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/mailing.html
> >> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: harmony-dev-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> >> For additional commands, e-mail: harmony-dev-help@incubator.apache.org
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >>
> >>
> >
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>
> --
>
> Tim Ellison (t.p.ellison@gmail.com)
> IBM Java technology centre, UK.
>
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Re: [general] Sun's permission to use exception messages and toString()
formats
Posted by Tim Ellison <t....@gmail.com>.
Mikhail Loenko wrote:
> I think all that means that we will accept patches that fix the messages
> and
> toStrings
Sure, if people want to spend their time doing that then of course we
will be grateful.
Regards,
Tim
> 2006/7/17, Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>:
>>
>>
>> Alexey Petrenko wrote:
>> > I do not think that we really need to rewrite all the toString
>> messages.
>> > I suggest to update them as needed. For example if somebody will
>> > discover that some important application depends on it...
>>
>> The problem with that approach is that you are letting your users find
>> problems that you actually know are there.
>>
>> As I said in another note, I don't think we should drop everything to do
>> this, but we *should* agree to do it lazily, track what has been fixed,
>> and offer it as something that new people who want to get engaged in the
>> project can do as well.
>>
>> geir
>>
>> >
>> > SY, Alexey
>> >
>> > 2006/7/17, Richard Liang <ri...@gmail.com>:
>> >> Good news! So we can output the same message if possible. Not sure
>> >> whether we need to update all of us toStrings? Any comments?
>> >>
>> >> Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
>> >> > Sun, via Graham Hamilton (my favorite Sun Fellow), has stated the
>> >> > following :
>> >> >
>> >> > Sun has no objections to Harmony (or other TCK-compliant Java SE
>> >> > implementations) using the same exception messages and toString
>> >> > formats as the Sun implementation of Java SE.
>> >> >
>> >> > Further, as a personal comment, he added :
>> >> >
>> >> > Keep in mind that since these messages and formats are not
>> part of
>> >> > the Java SE specifications, Sun may occasionally change the
>> >> messages
>> >> > and formats it uses. We tend to be cautious in doing that,
>> so as
>> >> > not to impact applications, but it isn't ruled out.
>> >> >
>> >> > Also, it should be noted that in the APIs where Doug Lea or Josh
>> Bloch
>> >> > had a major influence, there's a good change that the toString()
>> format
>> >> > *is* defined in the spec. For example, see HashMap (via
>> AbstractMap).
>> >> > The point is that while it hasn't been done consistently
>> throughout the
>> >> > entire API, it's well understood by some that people depend on these
>> >> > things, and one should be careful about changing them.
>> >> >
>> >> > geir
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> > Terms of use : http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/mailing.html
>> >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: harmony-dev-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> >> > For additional commands, e-mail:
>> harmony-dev-help@incubator.apache.org
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Richard Liang
>> >> China Software Development Lab, IBM
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> Terms of use : http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/mailing.html
>> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: harmony-dev-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> >> For additional commands, e-mail: harmony-dev-help@incubator.apache.org
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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--
Tim Ellison (t.p.ellison@gmail.com)
IBM Java technology centre, UK.
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Re: [general] Sun's permission to use exception messages and toString() formats
Posted by Alexey Petrenko <al...@gmail.com>.
Seems so... :)
2006/7/18, Mikhail Loenko <ml...@gmail.com>:
> I think all that means that we will accept patches that fix the messages and
> toStrings
>
> Thanks,
> Mikhail
>
> 2006/7/17, Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>:
> >
> >
> > Alexey Petrenko wrote:
> > > I do not think that we really need to rewrite all the toString messages.
> > > I suggest to update them as needed. For example if somebody will
> > > discover that some important application depends on it...
> >
> > The problem with that approach is that you are letting your users find
> > problems that you actually know are there.
> >
> > As I said in another note, I don't think we should drop everything to do
> > this, but we *should* agree to do it lazily, track what has been fixed,
> > and offer it as something that new people who want to get engaged in the
> > project can do as well.
> >
> > geir
> >
> > >
> > > SY, Alexey
> > >
> > > 2006/7/17, Richard Liang <ri...@gmail.com>:
> > >> Good news! So we can output the same message if possible. Not sure
> > >> whether we need to update all of us toStrings? Any comments?
> > >>
> > >> Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
> > >> > Sun, via Graham Hamilton (my favorite Sun Fellow), has stated the
> > >> > following :
> > >> >
> > >> > Sun has no objections to Harmony (or other TCK-compliant Java SE
> > >> > implementations) using the same exception messages and toString
> > >> > formats as the Sun implementation of Java SE.
> > >> >
> > >> > Further, as a personal comment, he added :
> > >> >
> > >> > Keep in mind that since these messages and formats are not part of
> > >> > the Java SE specifications, Sun may occasionally change the
> > >> messages
> > >> > and formats it uses. We tend to be cautious in doing that, so as
> > >> > not to impact applications, but it isn't ruled out.
> > >> >
> > >> > Also, it should be noted that in the APIs where Doug Lea or Josh Bloch
> > >> > had a major influence, there's a good change that the toString() format
> > >> > *is* defined in the spec. For example, see HashMap (via AbstractMap).
> > >> > The point is that while it hasn't been done consistently throughout the
> > >> > entire API, it's well understood by some that people depend on these
> > >> > things, and one should be careful about changing them.
> > >> >
> > >> > geir
> > >> >
> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> > Terms of use : http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/mailing.html
> > >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: harmony-dev-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > >> > For additional commands, e-mail: harmony-dev-help@incubator.apache.org
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Richard Liang
> > >> China Software Development Lab, IBM
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> Terms of use : http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/mailing.html
> > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: harmony-dev-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > >> For additional commands, e-mail: harmony-dev-help@incubator.apache.org
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
> >
>
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--
Alexey A. Petrenko
Intel Middleware Products Division
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Re: [general] Sun's permission to use exception messages and toString()
formats
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>.
among other things, yes...
Mikhail Loenko wrote:
> I think all that means that we will accept patches that fix the messages
> and
> toStrings
>
> Thanks,
> Mikhail
>
> 2006/7/17, Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>:
>>
>>
>> Alexey Petrenko wrote:
>> > I do not think that we really need to rewrite all the toString
>> messages.
>> > I suggest to update them as needed. For example if somebody will
>> > discover that some important application depends on it...
>>
>> The problem with that approach is that you are letting your users find
>> problems that you actually know are there.
>>
>> As I said in another note, I don't think we should drop everything to do
>> this, but we *should* agree to do it lazily, track what has been fixed,
>> and offer it as something that new people who want to get engaged in the
>> project can do as well.
>>
>> geir
>>
>> >
>> > SY, Alexey
>> >
>> > 2006/7/17, Richard Liang <ri...@gmail.com>:
>> >> Good news! So we can output the same message if possible. Not sure
>> >> whether we need to update all of us toStrings? Any comments?
>> >>
>> >> Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
>> >> > Sun, via Graham Hamilton (my favorite Sun Fellow), has stated the
>> >> > following :
>> >> >
>> >> > Sun has no objections to Harmony (or other TCK-compliant Java SE
>> >> > implementations) using the same exception messages and toString
>> >> > formats as the Sun implementation of Java SE.
>> >> >
>> >> > Further, as a personal comment, he added :
>> >> >
>> >> > Keep in mind that since these messages and formats are not
>> part of
>> >> > the Java SE specifications, Sun may occasionally change the
>> >> messages
>> >> > and formats it uses. We tend to be cautious in doing that,
>> so as
>> >> > not to impact applications, but it isn't ruled out.
>> >> >
>> >> > Also, it should be noted that in the APIs where Doug Lea or Josh
>> Bloch
>> >> > had a major influence, there's a good change that the toString()
>> format
>> >> > *is* defined in the spec. For example, see HashMap (via
>> AbstractMap).
>> >> > The point is that while it hasn't been done consistently
>> throughout the
>> >> > entire API, it's well understood by some that people depend on these
>> >> > things, and one should be careful about changing them.
>> >> >
>> >> > geir
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> > Terms of use : http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/mailing.html
>> >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: harmony-dev-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> >> > For additional commands, e-mail:
>> harmony-dev-help@incubator.apache.org
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Richard Liang
>> >> China Software Development Lab, IBM
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> Terms of use : http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/mailing.html
>> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: harmony-dev-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> >> For additional commands, e-mail: harmony-dev-help@incubator.apache.org
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
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Re: [general] Sun's permission to use exception messages and toString() formats
Posted by Mikhail Loenko <ml...@gmail.com>.
I think all that means that we will accept patches that fix the messages and
toStrings
Thanks,
Mikhail
2006/7/17, Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>:
>
>
> Alexey Petrenko wrote:
> > I do not think that we really need to rewrite all the toString messages.
> > I suggest to update them as needed. For example if somebody will
> > discover that some important application depends on it...
>
> The problem with that approach is that you are letting your users find
> problems that you actually know are there.
>
> As I said in another note, I don't think we should drop everything to do
> this, but we *should* agree to do it lazily, track what has been fixed,
> and offer it as something that new people who want to get engaged in the
> project can do as well.
>
> geir
>
> >
> > SY, Alexey
> >
> > 2006/7/17, Richard Liang <ri...@gmail.com>:
> >> Good news! So we can output the same message if possible. Not sure
> >> whether we need to update all of us toStrings? Any comments?
> >>
> >> Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
> >> > Sun, via Graham Hamilton (my favorite Sun Fellow), has stated the
> >> > following :
> >> >
> >> > Sun has no objections to Harmony (or other TCK-compliant Java SE
> >> > implementations) using the same exception messages and toString
> >> > formats as the Sun implementation of Java SE.
> >> >
> >> > Further, as a personal comment, he added :
> >> >
> >> > Keep in mind that since these messages and formats are not part of
> >> > the Java SE specifications, Sun may occasionally change the
> >> messages
> >> > and formats it uses. We tend to be cautious in doing that, so as
> >> > not to impact applications, but it isn't ruled out.
> >> >
> >> > Also, it should be noted that in the APIs where Doug Lea or Josh Bloch
> >> > had a major influence, there's a good change that the toString() format
> >> > *is* defined in the spec. For example, see HashMap (via AbstractMap).
> >> > The point is that while it hasn't been done consistently throughout the
> >> > entire API, it's well understood by some that people depend on these
> >> > things, and one should be careful about changing them.
> >> >
> >> > geir
> >> >
> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > Terms of use : http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/mailing.html
> >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: harmony-dev-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> > For additional commands, e-mail: harmony-dev-help@incubator.apache.org
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> --
> >> Richard Liang
> >> China Software Development Lab, IBM
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> Terms of use : http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/mailing.html
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: harmony-dev-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: harmony-dev-help@incubator.apache.org
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
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Re: [general] Sun's permission to use exception messages and toString()
formats
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>.
Alexey Petrenko wrote:
> I do not think that we really need to rewrite all the toString messages.
> I suggest to update them as needed. For example if somebody will
> discover that some important application depends on it...
The problem with that approach is that you are letting your users find
problems that you actually know are there.
As I said in another note, I don't think we should drop everything to do
this, but we *should* agree to do it lazily, track what has been fixed,
and offer it as something that new people who want to get engaged in the
project can do as well.
geir
>
> SY, Alexey
>
> 2006/7/17, Richard Liang <ri...@gmail.com>:
>> Good news! So we can output the same message if possible. Not sure
>> whether we need to update all of us toStrings? Any comments?
>>
>> Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
>> > Sun, via Graham Hamilton (my favorite Sun Fellow), has stated the
>> > following :
>> >
>> > Sun has no objections to Harmony (or other TCK-compliant Java SE
>> > implementations) using the same exception messages and toString
>> > formats as the Sun implementation of Java SE.
>> >
>> > Further, as a personal comment, he added :
>> >
>> > Keep in mind that since these messages and formats are not part of
>> > the Java SE specifications, Sun may occasionally change the
>> messages
>> > and formats it uses. We tend to be cautious in doing that, so as
>> > not to impact applications, but it isn't ruled out.
>> >
>> > Also, it should be noted that in the APIs where Doug Lea or Josh Bloch
>> > had a major influence, there's a good change that the toString() format
>> > *is* defined in the spec. For example, see HashMap (via AbstractMap).
>> > The point is that while it hasn't been done consistently throughout the
>> > entire API, it's well understood by some that people depend on these
>> > things, and one should be careful about changing them.
>> >
>> > geir
>> >
>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Terms of use : http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/mailing.html
>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: harmony-dev-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> > For additional commands, e-mail: harmony-dev-help@incubator.apache.org
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> --
>> Richard Liang
>> China Software Development Lab, IBM
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Terms of use : http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/mailing.html
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: harmony-dev-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
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>>
>>
>
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Re: [general] Sun's permission to use exception messages and toString() formats
Posted by Alexey Petrenko <al...@gmail.com>.
I do not think that we really need to rewrite all the toString messages.
I suggest to update them as needed. For example if somebody will
discover that some important application depends on it...
SY, Alexey
2006/7/17, Richard Liang <ri...@gmail.com>:
> Good news! So we can output the same message if possible. Not sure
> whether we need to update all of us toStrings? Any comments?
>
> Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
> > Sun, via Graham Hamilton (my favorite Sun Fellow), has stated the
> > following :
> >
> > Sun has no objections to Harmony (or other TCK-compliant Java SE
> > implementations) using the same exception messages and toString
> > formats as the Sun implementation of Java SE.
> >
> > Further, as a personal comment, he added :
> >
> > Keep in mind that since these messages and formats are not part of
> > the Java SE specifications, Sun may occasionally change the messages
> > and formats it uses. We tend to be cautious in doing that, so as
> > not to impact applications, but it isn't ruled out.
> >
> > Also, it should be noted that in the APIs where Doug Lea or Josh Bloch
> > had a major influence, there's a good change that the toString() format
> > *is* defined in the spec. For example, see HashMap (via AbstractMap).
> > The point is that while it hasn't been done consistently throughout the
> > entire API, it's well understood by some that people depend on these
> > things, and one should be careful about changing them.
> >
> > geir
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> Richard Liang
> China Software Development Lab, IBM
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Alexey A. Petrenko
Intel Middleware Products Division
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Re: [general] Sun's permission to use exception messages and toString()
formats
Posted by Richard Liang <ri...@gmail.com>.
Good news! So we can output the same message if possible. Not sure
whether we need to update all of us toStrings? Any comments?
Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
> Sun, via Graham Hamilton (my favorite Sun Fellow), has stated the
> following :
>
> Sun has no objections to Harmony (or other TCK-compliant Java SE
> implementations) using the same exception messages and toString
> formats as the Sun implementation of Java SE.
>
> Further, as a personal comment, he added :
>
> Keep in mind that since these messages and formats are not part of
> the Java SE specifications, Sun may occasionally change the messages
> and formats it uses. We tend to be cautious in doing that, so as
> not to impact applications, but it isn't ruled out.
>
> Also, it should be noted that in the APIs where Doug Lea or Josh Bloch
> had a major influence, there's a good change that the toString() format
> *is* defined in the spec. For example, see HashMap (via AbstractMap).
> The point is that while it hasn't been done consistently throughout the
> entire API, it's well understood by some that people depend on these
> things, and one should be careful about changing them.
>
> geir
>
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Richard Liang
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