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Posted to dev@openoffice.apache.org by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <or...@apache.org> on 2015/10/15 21:58:11 UTC
[QUESTION] Optional Java Use for Essential Functionality
In looking into some usability issues, I ran into a concern about how Java
is optional yet there are features that absolutely depend on it. I think
some of those are essential features.
I have been mentioning this in other contexts and I'd like to test community
wisdom for understanding here.
I have opened a question on the ASF Legal-Discuss list:
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-228
The essential cases that startled me were: (1) Creating a new Base document,
with default repository, only to find out that I can't edit it or otherwise
make use of the default repository without a JRE, at least on Windows; (2)
The Help | OpenOffice Help (F1) | Find search operation.
If we are not going to install a suitable JRE as part of AOO binary
installers, how should we make it more clear that Java is required for what
might seem to be essential functions?
(There are other matters about how the need for a JRE in a given situation
is made known, but that is separate from a general requirement that a JRE be
present.)
Should advice just be to install a suitable JRE?
Or should we differentiate where Java will be required before an user is
surprised by an announcement that an operation can't be performed because
there is no suitable JRE installed?
- Dennis
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Re: [QUESTION] Optional Java Use for Essential Functionality
Posted by Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>.
Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> The issue, here, is about how Java ends up being required and the way
> the absence of a suitable JRE derails users in the current
> arrangement where there may be no or a wrong-bitness JRE present.
The issue is also what we mean by "essential" functionality.
True, Base is quite limited if you don't have a JRE; but the majority of
users do not need or want to use Base.
And the situation is not much different for the "online" (in-app, I
mean) help; while it is often good and written with care, most users are
now used to searching the web instead of using the internal resources,
and Help is quite functional anyway even without a JRE.
Regards,
Andrea.
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RE: [QUESTION] Optional Java Use for Essential Functionality
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Damjan Jovanovic [mailto:damjan@apache.org]
> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 17:25
> To: Apache OO <de...@openoffice.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: [QUESTION] Optional Java Use for Essential Functionality
>
> On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 12:35 AM, Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
[ ... ]
> > Maybe it's time we investigate an alternate way of providing the
> > same functionality without Java?
[ ... ]
> It's that Mac buildbot that is badly needed. Also in terms of the JVM
> bitness issue, can't we detect the JVM bitness at download time from the
> Java plugin, and get users to download AOO of the matching bitness?
>
> Damjan
[orcmid]
It works the other way around on Windows. We only have an x86 build for Windows, but many installs of Windows x64 versions have the x64 JRE and That won't work with AOO. I think the Mac install is an x86-x64 one so not certain bit-ness is the issue there.
The issue, here, is about how Java ends up being required and the way the absence of a suitable JRE derails users in the current arrangement where there may be no or a wrong-bitness JRE present.
I think this is essentially an usability matter.
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Re: [QUESTION] Optional Java Use for Essential Functionality
Posted by Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>.
+1000.
Thanks I could not agree more. We can improve MS Office compatibility with OOXML quickly using Apache POI and ODF Toolkit. With Apache Tika Text can be pulled in from almost any document.
It would be exciting to work out new architecture for document support in several languages.
Are there ways to extend file operations to use UNO?
Regards?
Dave
Sent from my iPhone
> On Oct 15, 2015, at 5:24 PM, Damjan Jovanovic <da...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 12:35 AM, Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 10/15/2015 01:58 PM, Marcus wrote:
>>> Am 10/15/2015 09:58 PM, schrieb Dennis E. Hamilton:
>>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>> If we are not going to install a suitable JRE as part of AOO binary
>>>> installers, how should we make it more clear that Java is required
>>>> for what
>>>> might seem to be essential functions?
>>>>
>>>> [...]
>>>
>>> I don't know since when a JRE is needed inside OpenOffice for a few
>>> functions, maybe since ever. And since OpenOffice is at Apache there
>>> was no code change. The only change was that a JRE is no longer
>>> included when downloading OpenOffice.
>>>
>>> So, I expect that the users know since a longer time that they need
>>> a JRE when they want these functions. Additionally there are
>>> messages shown that a JRE is needed.
>>>
>>> Marcus
>>
>> The need for Java is detailed in the System Requirements --
>> http://www.openoffice.org/dev_docs/source/sys_reqs_aoo41.html
>>
>> linked from the Download page. What I found "startling" was the
>> message that Java 6 is needed on Macintosh, which I was not aware
>> of. We've switched to Java 7 for sure for Windows and Linux builds.
>> The lack of a Mac buildbot makes tracking these kinds of anomalies
>> difficult.
>>
>> Maybe it's time we investigate an alternate way of providing the
>> same functionality without Java?
>
>
> Q. Where did the names “C” and “C++” come from?
> A. They were grades.
> —Jerry Leichtre, UNIX hater's handbook
>
> Java is a first class UNO language (
> https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/DevGuide/AdvUNO/Advanced_UNO)
> capable of both using and implementing UNO components. It's been
> open-source for 9 years, ported to countless platforms (
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Java_virtual_machines) and
> there is an ocean of high quality open source software in Java online, a
> lot of it liberally licensed, and a lot of software at Apache is written in
> Java. Unlike Basic, the Java language has excellent tooling and
> refactoring support in IDEs, and not only far easier to develop in than
> C/C++, but also memory-safe and thus secure against buffer overflow
> exploits, and is JITed for high performance instead of Basic's slow
> interpretation.
>
> We pay an enormous ongoing cost with C/C++: discouraging new developers
> from joining, making portability harder as patches have to be built and
> tested on each platform, 32/64 bit issues such as #112383, crashes instead
> of exceptions that can be caught, and it's a large attack surface for
> future security exploits. The real reason we suffer with dmake/gbuild is
> C/C++.
>
> So I have the opposite proposal: port more of AOO to Java, develop new
> innovations primarily in Java, and generally use even more Java from now on.
>
> It's that Mac buildbot that is badly needed. Also in terms of the JVM
> bitness issue, can't we detect the JVM bitness at download time from the
> Java plugin, and get users to download AOO of the matching bitness?
>
> Damjan
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Re: [QUESTION] Optional Java Use for Essential Functionality
Posted by Damjan Jovanovic <da...@apache.org>.
On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 12:35 AM, Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On 10/15/2015 01:58 PM, Marcus wrote:
> > Am 10/15/2015 09:58 PM, schrieb Dennis E. Hamilton:
> >> [...]
> >>
> >> If we are not going to install a suitable JRE as part of AOO binary
> >> installers, how should we make it more clear that Java is required
> >> for what
> >> might seem to be essential functions?
> >>
> >> [...]
> >
> > I don't know since when a JRE is needed inside OpenOffice for a few
> > functions, maybe since ever. And since OpenOffice is at Apache there
> > was no code change. The only change was that a JRE is no longer
> > included when downloading OpenOffice.
> >
> > So, I expect that the users know since a longer time that they need
> > a JRE when they want these functions. Additionally there are
> > messages shown that a JRE is needed.
> >
> > Marcus
>
> The need for Java is detailed in the System Requirements --
> http://www.openoffice.org/dev_docs/source/sys_reqs_aoo41.html
>
> linked from the Download page. What I found "startling" was the
> message that Java 6 is needed on Macintosh, which I was not aware
> of. We've switched to Java 7 for sure for Windows and Linux builds.
> The lack of a Mac buildbot makes tracking these kinds of anomalies
> difficult.
>
> Maybe it's time we investigate an alternate way of providing the
> same functionality without Java?
>
Q. Where did the names “C” and “C++” come from?
A. They were grades.
—Jerry Leichtre, UNIX hater's handbook
Java is a first class UNO language (
https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/DevGuide/AdvUNO/Advanced_UNO)
capable of both using and implementing UNO components. It's been
open-source for 9 years, ported to countless platforms (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Java_virtual_machines) and
there is an ocean of high quality open source software in Java online, a
lot of it liberally licensed, and a lot of software at Apache is written in
Java. Unlike Basic, the Java language has excellent tooling and
refactoring support in IDEs, and not only far easier to develop in than
C/C++, but also memory-safe and thus secure against buffer overflow
exploits, and is JITed for high performance instead of Basic's slow
interpretation.
We pay an enormous ongoing cost with C/C++: discouraging new developers
from joining, making portability harder as patches have to be built and
tested on each platform, 32/64 bit issues such as #112383, crashes instead
of exceptions that can be caught, and it's a large attack surface for
future security exploits. The real reason we suffer with dmake/gbuild is
C/C++.
So I have the opposite proposal: port more of AOO to Java, develop new
innovations primarily in Java, and generally use even more Java from now on.
It's that Mac buildbot that is badly needed. Also in terms of the JVM
bitness issue, can't we detect the JVM bitness at download time from the
Java plugin, and get users to download AOO of the matching bitness?
Damjan
RE: [QUESTION] Optional Java Use for Essential Functionality
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <or...@apache.org>.
Thanks, Marcus and Kay.
Oh, I know so little about what is on the web site and wikis now.
Must nose around more.
I would reword the Java and Accessibility statements a bit, but you have
answered my basic question.
There remain some usability questions. I wonder if others have
Observations or comments about those they have observed.
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Kay Schenk [mailto:kay.schenk@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 15:36
To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
Subject: Re: [QUESTION] Optional Java Use for Essential Functionality
[ ... ]
The need for Java is detailed in the System Requirements --
http://www.openoffice.org/dev_docs/source/sys_reqs_aoo41.html
linked from the Download page. What I found "startling" was the
message that Java 6 is needed on Macintosh, which I was not aware
of. We've switched to Java 7 for sure for Windows and Linux builds.
The lack of a Mac buildbot makes tracking these kinds of anomalies
difficult.
Maybe it's time we investigate an alternate way of providing the
same functionality without Java?
--
--------------------------------------------
MzK
“The journey of a thousand miles begins
with a single step.”
--Lao Tzu
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Re: [QUESTION] Optional Java Use for Essential Functionality
Posted by Marcus <ma...@wtnet.de>.
Am 10/16/2015 07:10 AM, schrieb Larry Gusaas:
> On 2015-10-15, 5:37 PM Kay Schenk wrote:
>> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 4:16 PM, Larry Gusaas <la...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2015-10-15, 4:35 PM Kay Schenk wrote:
>>>
>>>> The need for Java is detailed in the System Requirements --
>>>> http://www.openoffice.org/dev_docs/source/sys_reqs_aoo41.html
>>>> linked from the Download page. What I found "startling" was the
>>>> message that Java 6 is needed on Macintosh, which I was not aware
>>>> of. We've switched to Java 7 for sure for Windows and Linux builds.
>>>> The lack of a Mac buildbot makes tracking these kinds of anomalies
>>>> difficult.
>>>>
>>> I don't see any mention that OS X requires a specific version of JRE.
>>>
>>> The Java listing states minimum requirements which apply to all
>>> operating
>>> systems.
>>>
>>> I am using JRE 1.8.x on my Mac.
>>>
>>> There was a problem with Macs having Apple's version of JRE 1.6
>>> installed
>>> in order for AOO to recognize newer JRE. I don't remember if that bug
>>> has
>>> been resolved.
>>>
>> not according to this bug just filed today... 😕
>>
>> https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=126591
>
> And that bug states "RESOLVED NOT_AN_ISSUE".
> It should be reopened because it is an issue (Mac specific).
done
> AOO should find latest Oracle JRE's without having an obsolete Java
> installed.
>
> The issue has come up many times on the forum and (if I recall
> correctly) on the users mailing list. I think it is related (if I recall
> correctly) to the location Java is installed in the latest versions of
> OS X. AOO can't find it unless JRE 1.6 was also installed.
Marcus
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Re: [QUESTION] Optional Java Use for Essential Functionality
Posted by Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com>.
On Sat, Oct 17, 2015 at 2:09 PM, Larry Gusaas <la...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
>
> On 2015-10-16, 10:33 AM Marcus wrote:
>
>> Am 10/16/2015 07:10 AM, schrieb Larry Gusaas:
>>
>>> On 2015-10-15, 5:37 PM Kay Schenk wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 4:16 PM, Larry Gusaas <la...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 2015-10-15, 4:35 PM Kay Schenk wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> The need for Java is detailed in the System Requirements --
>>>>>> http://www.openoffice.org/dev_docs/source/sys_reqs_aoo41.html
>>>>>> linked from the Download page. What I found "startling" was the
>>>>>> message that Java 6 is needed on Macintosh, which I was not aware
>>>>>> of. We've switched to Java 7 for sure for Windows and Linux builds.
>>>>>> The lack of a Mac buildbot makes tracking these kinds of anomalies
>>>>>> difficult.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't see any mention that OS X requires a specific version of JRE.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Java listing states minimum requirements which apply to all
>>>>> operating
>>>>> systems.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am using JRE 1.8.x on my Mac.
>>>>>
>>>>> There was a problem with Macs having Apple's version of JRE 1.6
>>>>> installed
>>>>> in order for AOO to recognize newer JRE. I don't remember if that bug
>>>>> has
>>>>> been resolved.
>>>>>
>>>>> not according to this bug just filed today... 😕
>>>>
>>>> https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=126591
>>>>
>>>
>>> And that bug states "RESOLVED NOT_AN_ISSUE".
>>> It should be reopened because it is an issue (Mac specific).
>>>
>>
>> done
>>
>> AOO should find latest Oracle JRE's without having an obsolete Java
>>> installed.
>>>
>>> The issue has come up many times on the forum and (if I recall
>>> correctly) on the users mailing list. I think it is related (if I recall
>>> correctly) to the location Java is installed in the latest versions of
>>> OS X. AOO can't find it unless JRE 1.6 was also installed.
>>>
>>
>> Marcus
>>
>
> I have done some more research. It seems the problem is a bug in Oracle
> Java. See http://bugs.java.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=7131356
Thanks for posting this.
>
>
> --
> _________________________________
>
> Larry I. Gusaas
> Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
> Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
> "An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind
> theirs." - Edgard Varese
>
>
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
>
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
MzK
“The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.”
--Lao Tzu
Re: [QUESTION] Optional Java Use for Essential Functionality
Posted by Larry Gusaas <la...@gmail.com>.
On 2015-10-16, 10:33 AM Marcus wrote:
> Am 10/16/2015 07:10 AM, schrieb Larry Gusaas:
>> On 2015-10-15, 5:37 PM Kay Schenk wrote:
>>> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 4:16 PM, Larry Gusaas <la...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2015-10-15, 4:35 PM Kay Schenk wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The need for Java is detailed in the System Requirements --
>>>>> http://www.openoffice.org/dev_docs/source/sys_reqs_aoo41.html
>>>>> linked from the Download page. What I found "startling" was the
>>>>> message that Java 6 is needed on Macintosh, which I was not aware
>>>>> of. We've switched to Java 7 for sure for Windows and Linux builds.
>>>>> The lack of a Mac buildbot makes tracking these kinds of anomalies
>>>>> difficult.
>>>>>
>>>> I don't see any mention that OS X requires a specific version of JRE.
>>>>
>>>> The Java listing states minimum requirements which apply to all
>>>> operating
>>>> systems.
>>>>
>>>> I am using JRE 1.8.x on my Mac.
>>>>
>>>> There was a problem with Macs having Apple's version of JRE 1.6
>>>> installed
>>>> in order for AOO to recognize newer JRE. I don't remember if that bug
>>>> has
>>>> been resolved.
>>>>
>>> not according to this bug just filed today... 😕
>>>
>>> https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=126591
>>
>> And that bug states "RESOLVED NOT_AN_ISSUE".
>> It should be reopened because it is an issue (Mac specific).
>
> done
>
>> AOO should find latest Oracle JRE's without having an obsolete Java
>> installed.
>>
>> The issue has come up many times on the forum and (if I recall
>> correctly) on the users mailing list. I think it is related (if I recall
>> correctly) to the location Java is installed in the latest versions of
>> OS X. AOO can't find it unless JRE 1.6 was also installed.
>
> Marcus
I have done some more research. It seems the problem is a bug in Oracle Java. See
http://bugs.java.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=7131356
--
_________________________________
Larry I. Gusaas
Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
"An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - Edgard Varese
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Re: [QUESTION] Optional Java Use for Essential Functionality
Posted by Larry Gusaas <la...@gmail.com>.
On 2015-10-15, 5:37 PM Kay Schenk wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 4:16 PM, Larry Gusaas <la...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2015-10-15, 4:35 PM Kay Schenk wrote:
>>
>>> The need for Java is detailed in the System Requirements --
>>> http://www.openoffice.org/dev_docs/source/sys_reqs_aoo41.html
>>> linked from the Download page. What I found "startling" was the
>>> message that Java 6 is needed on Macintosh, which I was not aware
>>> of. We've switched to Java 7 for sure for Windows and Linux builds.
>>> The lack of a Mac buildbot makes tracking these kinds of anomalies
>>> difficult.
>>>
>> I don't see any mention that OS X requires a specific version of JRE.
>>
>> The Java listing states minimum requirements which apply to all operating
>> systems.
>>
>> I am using JRE 1.8.x on my Mac.
>>
>> There was a problem with Macs having Apple's version of JRE 1.6 installed
>> in order for AOO to recognize newer JRE. I don't remember if that bug has
>> been resolved.
>>
> not according to this bug just filed today... 😕
>
> https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=126591
And that bug states "RESOLVED NOT_AN_ISSUE".
It should be reopened because it is an issue (Mac specific).
AOO should find latest Oracle JRE's without having an obsolete Java installed.
The issue has come up many times on the forum and (if I recall correctly) on the users mailing
list. I think it is related (if I recall correctly) to the location Java is installed in the
latest versions of OS X. AOO can't find it unless JRE 1.6 was also installed.
--
_________________________________
Larry I. Gusaas
Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
"An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - Edgard Varese
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Re: [QUESTION] Optional Java Use for Essential Functionality
Posted by Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 4:16 PM, Larry Gusaas <la...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> On 2015-10-15, 4:35 PM Kay Schenk wrote:
>
>> The need for Java is detailed in the System Requirements --
>> http://www.openoffice.org/dev_docs/source/sys_reqs_aoo41.html
>> linked from the Download page. What I found "startling" was the
>> message that Java 6 is needed on Macintosh, which I was not aware
>> of. We've switched to Java 7 for sure for Windows and Linux builds.
>> The lack of a Mac buildbot makes tracking these kinds of anomalies
>> difficult.
>>
> I don't see any mention that OS X requires a specific version of JRE.
>
> The Java listing states minimum requirements which apply to all operating
> systems.
>
> I am using JRE 1.8.x on my Mac.
>
> There was a problem with Macs having Apple's version of JRE 1.6 installed
> in order for AOO to recognize newer JRE. I don't remember if that bug has
> been resolved.
>
not according to this bug just filed today... 😕
https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=126591
>
> --
> _________________________________
>
> Larry I. Gusaas
> Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
> Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
> "An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind
> theirs." - Edgard Varese
>
>
>
>
>
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
MzK
“The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.”
--Lao Tzu
Re: [QUESTION] Optional Java Use for Essential Functionality
Posted by Larry Gusaas <la...@gmail.com>.
On 2015-10-15, 4:35 PM Kay Schenk wrote:
> The need for Java is detailed in the System Requirements --
> http://www.openoffice.org/dev_docs/source/sys_reqs_aoo41.html
> linked from the Download page. What I found "startling" was the
> message that Java 6 is needed on Macintosh, which I was not aware
> of. We've switched to Java 7 for sure for Windows and Linux builds.
> The lack of a Mac buildbot makes tracking these kinds of anomalies
> difficult.
I don't see any mention that OS X requires a specific version of JRE.
The Java listing states minimum requirements which apply to all operating systems.
I am using JRE 1.8.x on my Mac.
There was a problem with Macs having Apple's version of JRE 1.6 installed in order for AOO to
recognize newer JRE. I don't remember if that bug has been resolved.
--
_________________________________
Larry I. Gusaas
Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
"An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - Edgard Varese
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Re: [QUESTION] Optional Java Use for Essential Functionality
Posted by Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com>.
On 10/15/2015 01:58 PM, Marcus wrote:
> Am 10/15/2015 09:58 PM, schrieb Dennis E. Hamilton:
>> [...]
>>
>> If we are not going to install a suitable JRE as part of AOO binary
>> installers, how should we make it more clear that Java is required
>> for what
>> might seem to be essential functions?
>>
>> [...]
>
> I don't know since when a JRE is needed inside OpenOffice for a few
> functions, maybe since ever. And since OpenOffice is at Apache there
> was no code change. The only change was that a JRE is no longer
> included when downloading OpenOffice.
>
> So, I expect that the users know since a longer time that they need
> a JRE when they want these functions. Additionally there are
> messages shown that a JRE is needed.
>
> Marcus
The need for Java is detailed in the System Requirements --
http://www.openoffice.org/dev_docs/source/sys_reqs_aoo41.html
linked from the Download page. What I found "startling" was the
message that Java 6 is needed on Macintosh, which I was not aware
of. We've switched to Java 7 for sure for Windows and Linux builds.
The lack of a Mac buildbot makes tracking these kinds of anomalies
difficult.
Maybe it's time we investigate an alternate way of providing the
same functionality without Java?
--
--------------------------------------------
MzK
“The journey of a thousand miles begins
with a single step.”
--Lao Tzu
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Re: [QUESTION] Optional Java Use for Essential Functionality
Posted by Marcus <ma...@wtnet.de>.
Am 10/15/2015 09:58 PM, schrieb Dennis E. Hamilton:
> [...]
>
> If we are not going to install a suitable JRE as part of AOO binary
> installers, how should we make it more clear that Java is required for what
> might seem to be essential functions?
>
> [...]
I don't know since when a JRE is needed inside OpenOffice for a few
functions, maybe since ever. And since OpenOffice is at Apache there was
no code change. The only change was that a JRE is no longer included
when downloading OpenOffice.
So, I expect that the users know since a longer time that they need a
JRE when they want these functions. Additionally there are messages
shown that a JRE is needed.
Marcus
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RE: [QUESTION] Optional Java Use for Essential Functionality
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <or...@apache.org>.
Summary of what this thread revealed, in-line.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dennis E. Hamilton [mailto:orcmid@apache.org]
> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 12:58
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: [QUESTION] Optional Java Use for Essential Functionality
>
> In looking into some usability issues, I ran into a concern about how
> Java
> is optional yet there are features that absolutely depend on it. I
> think
> some of those are essential features.
>
> I have been mentioning this in other contexts and I'd like to test
> community
> wisdom for understanding here.
>
> I have opened a question on the ASF Legal-Discuss list:
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-228
[orcmid]
It is agreed that this case does not apply, and the issue is closed.
It is established in the system requirements that Java is necessary to
achieve full functionality. See
<http://www.openoffice.org/dev_docs/source/sys_reqs_aoo41.html>. It could
be more clear and many users, if they consult system requirements at all,
might not scroll down to the statement about Java. But the (non-optional)
conditional requirement for Java is clear.
>
> The essential cases that startled me were: (1) Creating a new Base
> document,
> with default repository, only to find out that I can't edit it or
> otherwise
> make use of the default repository without a JRE, at least on Windows;
> (2)
> The Help | OpenOffice Help (F1) | Find search operation.
>
> If we are not going to install a suitable JRE as part of AOO binary
> installers, how should we make it more clear that Java is required for
> what
> might seem to be essential functions?
>
[ ... ]
>
> Should advice just be to install a suitable JRE?
>
> Or should we differentiate where Java will be required before an user is
> surprised by an announcement that an operation can't be performed
> because
> there is no suitable JRE installed?
[orcmid] There were some unexpected responses to these questions.
2. One suggestion was to remove the dependencies on Java.
3. Other suggestions included increasing the dependencies on Java, perhaps
going so far as to make AOO a Java application.
4. Some remarks suggested that, since the JRE dependency has been that way
since Apache OpenOffice started releasing, it must not be much of a problem.
I am wary of (4). I tend to have different suspicions about situations such
as any similar to <https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=126597>.
I think the way to determine the extent to which JRE-required and similar
traps are problems may require consultation with those closer to what and
where users report. I wonder what different reactions might be in those
places.
-- Dennis
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