[VOTE] HCatalog to Graduate and become part of Apache Hive

[Alan Gates <ga...@hortonworks.com>]

Apache HCatalog entered incubation in March of 2011.  In the process it has added five new committers and two new PPMC members and made 3 successful releases.  

The Hive PMC has voted to accept HCatalog as a part of Hive.  The vote thread for this is at http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/hive-dev/201301.mbox/%3cCACf6RrzktBYD0suZxn3Pfv8XkR=vgwszRZyB_2qVeSuj2vhaVg@mail.gmail.com%3e  

The HCatalog PPMC has voted to accept this invitation.  The vote thread for that is at:

http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-hcatalog-dev/201302.mbox/%3cD6CC6C77-9E4F-48F6-B49F-A7E378889274@hortonworks.com%3e

additional votes for this can be found at:

http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/201302.mbox/%3c3F7D9868-7D0D-4C08-831A-FF4735394E12@hortonworks.com%3e

and

http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/hive-dev/201302.mbox/%3c3F7D9868-7D0D-4C08-831A-FF4735394E12@hortonworks.com%3e

(these are threads I forwarded to dev@hive and general@incubator as an FYI but people got confused and voted on the wrong thread).

We have already received +1s from the following IPMC members on the previous threads:

Arun Murthy
Owen O'Malley
Alex Karasulu
Jakob Homan
Alan Gates

Please cast your vote.  The vote will remain open until 12 PST Feb 11.

Alan.
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Re: [DISCUSS] [VOTE] HCatalog to Graduate and become part of Apache Hive

["Mattmann, Chris A (388J)" <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov>]

Thanks for the clarification, Roy.

Cheers,
Chris

P.S. Almost want them to change to lazy consensus, bc you laying smack
down is full of win.

On 2/14/13 11:38 AM, "Roy T. Fielding" <fi...@gbiv.com> wrote:

>It is a majority decision.  In theory, the PMC could decide to
>create special bylaws that would change that to a lazy consensus
>decision, but then I would have to lay the smack down about why
>it is that the US government sucks because supermajorities are
>designed to deny proper governance.
>
>In the absence of specific rules (like our lazy consensus rule
>on code change voting), you can assume that lazy majority decisions
>are the way that decisions are made at Apache (like releases).
>
>....Roy
>
>On Feb 14, 2013, at 9:58 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) wrote:
>
>> Hey Alan,
>> 
>> Great point -- thanks for highlighting the concern, and yes, Benson, I'd
>> like the Incubator PMC to request this clarification from the board.
>>BTW,
>> not frustrated with you guys at all and wish you the best. Just trying
>>to
>> help (even if it didn't seem like it) based on my existing experience
>>with
>> several of Apache's largest umbrella projects :/
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Chris
>> 
>> On 2/14/13 8:31 AM, "Alan Gates" <ga...@hortonworks.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> I'd like second and extend Benson's point about clarifying how these
>>> things should work.  In addition to clarifying what it means to
>>>graduate
>>> into a subproject now that that is frowned upon, clarifying how these
>>> votes work would help.  I think Chris felt that we ignored his vote and
>>> pushed ahead.  From my reading of the docs it was supposed to be a
>>> majority vote and thus to view the -1s as a veto would be to improperly
>>> ignore the 5 +1s.  If the rules were clear in advance for the next
>>>group
>>> that faces this situation it will help to avoid these misunderstandings
>>> and frustrations.
>>> 
>>> Alan.
>>> 
>>> On Feb 14, 2013, at 3:29 AM, Benson Margulies wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I'm not so much opinionated as confused here, perhaps because I have a
>>>> very linear view of governance.
>>>> 
>>>> I like to know how a vote fits into a governance structure or process,
>>>> and I've felt for some time that this case (podling goes to existing
>>>> TLP) is not well-explained by our structure.
>>>> 
>>>> Back in the days when subprojects were normal and valid, the incubator
>>>> had a role on behalf of' an existing TLP in supervising IP and
>>>> community behavior. Graduation meant: "OK, umbrella, we certify that
>>>> these people can behave like a project and have clean IP." And,
>>>> perhaps, the board actually established subprojects? It's all before
>>>> my time.
>>>> 
>>>> Now that subprojects are no longer in the picture, I don't even know
>>>> why the IPMC should ever incubate a podling *if the plan, from the
>>>> start, is to be part of some existing TLP.* So I have assumed that
>>>> HCatalog started out with the intention to grow into an entire TLP,
>>>> and came up with the Hive plan as a fallback.
>>>> 
>>>> To try to make this long story shorter, I think that we should make a
>>>> proposal to the board with a schema for handling this case that makes
>>>> sense in current conditions. I'm happy for it to be your schema, which
>>>> amounts, as I see it, to the board having a supervisory moment when
>>>> this happens, with an IPMC vote providing the same sort of strong
>>>> recommendation one way or the other that it does for establishing a
>>>> TLP.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 12:49 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J)
>>>> <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>>>>> Hi Benson,
>>>>> 
>>>>> I saw your later email(s) and Incubator board report. It's fine and I
>>>>> think the message of my objection comes across.
>>>>> So thanks for that.
>>>>> 
>>>>> One thing I wanted to comment on:
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 2/13/13 4:10 AM, "Benson Margulies" <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Chris,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The obvious compromise is to ask them to report the vote result as
>>>>>>it
>>>>>> happened, it seems to me, -1's and all. But where do you think that
>>>>>> they are reporting anything? There's nothing happening here at the
>>>>>> board level. There's no board resolution needed for a Hive committer
>>>>>> to type 'svn cp' on the hcatalog tree,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Not by my counts. There's a *community* resolution and a
>>>>> recommendation to
>>>>> be made by the IPMC, nonetheless.
>>>>> Otherwise, the IPMC is pretty useless IMO, and more importantly, so
>>>>>is
>>>>> the
>>>>> Incubator.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Why bother even incubating HCatalog? Hive could have simply svn cp'ed
>>>>> whatever code came in, or whatever code the podling arrived at, and
>>>>> Incubation would have stopped then. But we both know that's not the
>>>>> way it
>>>>> works. Even if a podling graduates to an existing TLP, go check out
>>>>>the
>>>>> past resolutions. You'll note there's a section in there that
>>>>> discharges
>>>>> the responsibility of the IPMC for the podling. So, yes, the IPMC
>>>>>*is*
>>>>> involved. And yes, the IPMC vote matters.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Chris
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [DISCUSS] [VOTE] HCatalog to Graduate and become part of Apache Hive

["Roy T. Fielding" <fi...@gbiv.com>]

It is a majority decision.  In theory, the PMC could decide to
create special bylaws that would change that to a lazy consensus
decision, but then I would have to lay the smack down about why
it is that the US government sucks because supermajorities are
designed to deny proper governance.

In the absence of specific rules (like our lazy consensus rule
on code change voting), you can assume that lazy majority decisions
are the way that decisions are made at Apache (like releases).

....Roy

On Feb 14, 2013, at 9:58 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) wrote:

> Hey Alan,
> 
> Great point -- thanks for highlighting the concern, and yes, Benson, I'd
> like the Incubator PMC to request this clarification from the board. BTW,
> not frustrated with you guys at all and wish you the best. Just trying to
> help (even if it didn't seem like it) based on my existing experience with
> several of Apache's largest umbrella projects :/
> 
> Cheers,
> Chris
> 
> On 2/14/13 8:31 AM, "Alan Gates" <ga...@hortonworks.com> wrote:
> 
>> I'd like second and extend Benson's point about clarifying how these
>> things should work.  In addition to clarifying what it means to graduate
>> into a subproject now that that is frowned upon, clarifying how these
>> votes work would help.  I think Chris felt that we ignored his vote and
>> pushed ahead.  From my reading of the docs it was supposed to be a
>> majority vote and thus to view the -1s as a veto would be to improperly
>> ignore the 5 +1s.  If the rules were clear in advance for the next group
>> that faces this situation it will help to avoid these misunderstandings
>> and frustrations.
>> 
>> Alan.
>> 
>> On Feb 14, 2013, at 3:29 AM, Benson Margulies wrote:
>> 
>>> I'm not so much opinionated as confused here, perhaps because I have a
>>> very linear view of governance.
>>> 
>>> I like to know how a vote fits into a governance structure or process,
>>> and I've felt for some time that this case (podling goes to existing
>>> TLP) is not well-explained by our structure.
>>> 
>>> Back in the days when subprojects were normal and valid, the incubator
>>> had a role on behalf of' an existing TLP in supervising IP and
>>> community behavior. Graduation meant: "OK, umbrella, we certify that
>>> these people can behave like a project and have clean IP." And,
>>> perhaps, the board actually established subprojects? It's all before
>>> my time.
>>> 
>>> Now that subprojects are no longer in the picture, I don't even know
>>> why the IPMC should ever incubate a podling *if the plan, from the
>>> start, is to be part of some existing TLP.* So I have assumed that
>>> HCatalog started out with the intention to grow into an entire TLP,
>>> and came up with the Hive plan as a fallback.
>>> 
>>> To try to make this long story shorter, I think that we should make a
>>> proposal to the board with a schema for handling this case that makes
>>> sense in current conditions. I'm happy for it to be your schema, which
>>> amounts, as I see it, to the board having a supervisory moment when
>>> this happens, with an IPMC vote providing the same sort of strong
>>> recommendation one way or the other that it does for establishing a
>>> TLP.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 12:49 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J)
>>> <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>>>> Hi Benson,
>>>> 
>>>> I saw your later email(s) and Incubator board report. It's fine and I
>>>> think the message of my objection comes across.
>>>> So thanks for that.
>>>> 
>>>> One thing I wanted to comment on:
>>>> 
>>>> On 2/13/13 4:10 AM, "Benson Margulies" <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Chris,
>>>>> 
>>>>> The obvious compromise is to ask them to report the vote result as it
>>>>> happened, it seems to me, -1's and all. But where do you think that
>>>>> they are reporting anything? There's nothing happening here at the
>>>>> board level. There's no board resolution needed for a Hive committer
>>>>> to type 'svn cp' on the hcatalog tree,
>>>> 
>>>> Not by my counts. There's a *community* resolution and a
>>>> recommendation to
>>>> be made by the IPMC, nonetheless.
>>>> Otherwise, the IPMC is pretty useless IMO, and more importantly, so is
>>>> the
>>>> Incubator.
>>>> 
>>>> Why bother even incubating HCatalog? Hive could have simply svn cp'ed
>>>> whatever code came in, or whatever code the podling arrived at, and
>>>> Incubation would have stopped then. But we both know that's not the
>>>> way it
>>>> works. Even if a podling graduates to an existing TLP, go check out the
>>>> past resolutions. You'll note there's a section in there that
>>>> discharges
>>>> the responsibility of the IPMC for the podling. So, yes, the IPMC *is*
>>>> involved. And yes, the IPMC vote matters.
>>>> 
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Chris
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> 
> 
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Re: [DISCUSS] [VOTE] HCatalog to Graduate and become part of Apache Hive

["Mattmann, Chris A (388J)" <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov>]

Hey Alan,

Great point -- thanks for highlighting the concern, and yes, Benson, I'd
like the Incubator PMC to request this clarification from the board. BTW,
not frustrated with you guys at all and wish you the best. Just trying to
help (even if it didn't seem like it) based on my existing experience with
several of Apache's largest umbrella projects :/

Cheers,
Chris

On 2/14/13 8:31 AM, "Alan Gates" <ga...@hortonworks.com> wrote:

>I'd like second and extend Benson's point about clarifying how these
>things should work.  In addition to clarifying what it means to graduate
>into a subproject now that that is frowned upon, clarifying how these
>votes work would help.  I think Chris felt that we ignored his vote and
>pushed ahead.  From my reading of the docs it was supposed to be a
>majority vote and thus to view the -1s as a veto would be to improperly
>ignore the 5 +1s.  If the rules were clear in advance for the next group
>that faces this situation it will help to avoid these misunderstandings
>and frustrations.
>
>Alan.
>
>On Feb 14, 2013, at 3:29 AM, Benson Margulies wrote:
>
>> I'm not so much opinionated as confused here, perhaps because I have a
>> very linear view of governance.
>> 
>> I like to know how a vote fits into a governance structure or process,
>> and I've felt for some time that this case (podling goes to existing
>> TLP) is not well-explained by our structure.
>> 
>> Back in the days when subprojects were normal and valid, the incubator
>> had a role on behalf of' an existing TLP in supervising IP and
>> community behavior. Graduation meant: "OK, umbrella, we certify that
>> these people can behave like a project and have clean IP." And,
>> perhaps, the board actually established subprojects? It's all before
>> my time.
>> 
>> Now that subprojects are no longer in the picture, I don't even know
>> why the IPMC should ever incubate a podling *if the plan, from the
>> start, is to be part of some existing TLP.* So I have assumed that
>> HCatalog started out with the intention to grow into an entire TLP,
>> and came up with the Hive plan as a fallback.
>> 
>> To try to make this long story shorter, I think that we should make a
>> proposal to the board with a schema for handling this case that makes
>> sense in current conditions. I'm happy for it to be your schema, which
>> amounts, as I see it, to the board having a supervisory moment when
>> this happens, with an IPMC vote providing the same sort of strong
>> recommendation one way or the other that it does for establishing a
>> TLP.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 12:49 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J)
>> <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>>> Hi Benson,
>>> 
>>> I saw your later email(s) and Incubator board report. It's fine and I
>>> think the message of my objection comes across.
>>> So thanks for that.
>>> 
>>> One thing I wanted to comment on:
>>> 
>>> On 2/13/13 4:10 AM, "Benson Margulies" <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Chris,
>>>> 
>>>> The obvious compromise is to ask them to report the vote result as it
>>>> happened, it seems to me, -1's and all. But where do you think that
>>>> they are reporting anything? There's nothing happening here at the
>>>> board level. There's no board resolution needed for a Hive committer
>>>> to type 'svn cp' on the hcatalog tree,
>>> 
>>> Not by my counts. There's a *community* resolution and a
>>>recommendation to
>>> be made by the IPMC, nonetheless.
>>> Otherwise, the IPMC is pretty useless IMO, and more importantly, so is
>>>the
>>> Incubator.
>>> 
>>> Why bother even incubating HCatalog? Hive could have simply svn cp'ed
>>> whatever code came in, or whatever code the podling arrived at, and
>>> Incubation would have stopped then. But we both know that's not the
>>>way it
>>> works. Even if a podling graduates to an existing TLP, go check out the
>>> past resolutions. You'll note there's a section in there that
>>>discharges
>>> the responsibility of the IPMC for the podling. So, yes, the IPMC *is*
>>> involved. And yes, the IPMC vote matters.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> Chris
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>> 
>> 
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>> 
>
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] [VOTE] HCatalog to Graduate and become part of Apache Hive

[Alan Gates <ga...@hortonworks.com>]

I'd like second and extend Benson's point about clarifying how these things should work.  In addition to clarifying what it means to graduate into a subproject now that that is frowned upon, clarifying how these votes work would help.  I think Chris felt that we ignored his vote and pushed ahead.  From my reading of the docs it was supposed to be a majority vote and thus to view the -1s as a veto would be to improperly ignore the 5 +1s.  If the rules were clear in advance for the next group that faces this situation it will help to avoid these misunderstandings and frustrations.

Alan.

On Feb 14, 2013, at 3:29 AM, Benson Margulies wrote:

> I'm not so much opinionated as confused here, perhaps because I have a
> very linear view of governance.
> 
> I like to know how a vote fits into a governance structure or process,
> and I've felt for some time that this case (podling goes to existing
> TLP) is not well-explained by our structure.
> 
> Back in the days when subprojects were normal and valid, the incubator
> had a role on behalf of' an existing TLP in supervising IP and
> community behavior. Graduation meant: "OK, umbrella, we certify that
> these people can behave like a project and have clean IP." And,
> perhaps, the board actually established subprojects? It's all before
> my time.
> 
> Now that subprojects are no longer in the picture, I don't even know
> why the IPMC should ever incubate a podling *if the plan, from the
> start, is to be part of some existing TLP.* So I have assumed that
> HCatalog started out with the intention to grow into an entire TLP,
> and came up with the Hive plan as a fallback.
> 
> To try to make this long story shorter, I think that we should make a
> proposal to the board with a schema for handling this case that makes
> sense in current conditions. I'm happy for it to be your schema, which
> amounts, as I see it, to the board having a supervisory moment when
> this happens, with an IPMC vote providing the same sort of strong
> recommendation one way or the other that it does for establishing a
> TLP.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 12:49 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J)
> <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>> Hi Benson,
>> 
>> I saw your later email(s) and Incubator board report. It's fine and I
>> think the message of my objection comes across.
>> So thanks for that.
>> 
>> One thing I wanted to comment on:
>> 
>> On 2/13/13 4:10 AM, "Benson Margulies" <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Chris,
>>> 
>>> The obvious compromise is to ask them to report the vote result as it
>>> happened, it seems to me, -1's and all. But where do you think that
>>> they are reporting anything? There's nothing happening here at the
>>> board level. There's no board resolution needed for a Hive committer
>>> to type 'svn cp' on the hcatalog tree,
>> 
>> Not by my counts. There's a *community* resolution and a recommendation to
>> be made by the IPMC, nonetheless.
>> Otherwise, the IPMC is pretty useless IMO, and more importantly, so is the
>> Incubator.
>> 
>> Why bother even incubating HCatalog? Hive could have simply svn cp'ed
>> whatever code came in, or whatever code the podling arrived at, and
>> Incubation would have stopped then. But we both know that's not the way it
>> works. Even if a podling graduates to an existing TLP, go check out the
>> past resolutions. You'll note there's a section in there that discharges
>> the responsibility of the IPMC for the podling. So, yes, the IPMC *is*
>> involved. And yes, the IPMC vote matters.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Chris
>> 
>> 
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>> 
> 
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Re: [DISCUSS] [VOTE] HCatalog to Graduate and become part of Apache Hive

[Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>]

I'm not so much opinionated as confused here, perhaps because I have a
very linear view of governance.

I like to know how a vote fits into a governance structure or process,
and I've felt for some time that this case (podling goes to existing
TLP) is not well-explained by our structure.

Back in the days when subprojects were normal and valid, the incubator
had a role on behalf of' an existing TLP in supervising IP and
community behavior. Graduation meant: "OK, umbrella, we certify that
these people can behave like a project and have clean IP." And,
perhaps, the board actually established subprojects? It's all before
my time.

Now that subprojects are no longer in the picture, I don't even know
why the IPMC should ever incubate a podling *if the plan, from the
start, is to be part of some existing TLP.* So I have assumed that
HCatalog started out with the intention to grow into an entire TLP,
and came up with the Hive plan as a fallback.

To try to make this long story shorter, I think that we should make a
proposal to the board with a schema for handling this case that makes
sense in current conditions. I'm happy for it to be your schema, which
amounts, as I see it, to the board having a supervisory moment when
this happens, with an IPMC vote providing the same sort of strong
recommendation one way or the other that it does for establishing a
TLP.





On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 12:49 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J)
<ch...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
> Hi Benson,
>
> I saw your later email(s) and Incubator board report. It's fine and I
> think the message of my objection comes across.
> So thanks for that.
>
> One thing I wanted to comment on:
>
> On 2/13/13 4:10 AM, "Benson Margulies" <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Chris,
>>
>>The obvious compromise is to ask them to report the vote result as it
>>happened, it seems to me, -1's and all. But where do you think that
>>they are reporting anything? There's nothing happening here at the
>>board level. There's no board resolution needed for a Hive committer
>>to type 'svn cp' on the hcatalog tree,
>
> Not by my counts. There's a *community* resolution and a recommendation to
> be made by the IPMC, nonetheless.
> Otherwise, the IPMC is pretty useless IMO, and more importantly, so is the
> Incubator.
>
> Why bother even incubating HCatalog? Hive could have simply svn cp'ed
> whatever code came in, or whatever code the podling arrived at, and
> Incubation would have stopped then. But we both know that's not the way it
> works. Even if a podling graduates to an existing TLP, go check out the
> past resolutions. You'll note there's a section in there that discharges
> the responsibility of the IPMC for the podling. So, yes, the IPMC *is*
> involved. And yes, the IPMC vote matters.
>
> Cheers,
> Chris
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>

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Re: [DISCUSS] [VOTE] HCatalog to Graduate and become part of Apache Hive

[Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>]

I added a summary, please correct as needed, since I should button the
report up tomorrow.

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 7:10 AM, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Chris,
>
> The obvious compromise is to ask them to report the vote result as it
> happened, it seems to me, -1's and all. But where do you think that
> they are reporting anything? There's nothing happening here at the
> board level. There's no board resolution needed for a Hive committer
> to type 'svn cp' on the hcatalog tree, nor for the Hive PMC to set up
> some worrisome umbrellaesque structure of internal bylaws. When the
> Hive PMC reports this after the fact, the board might response.
>
> Having written all this, please feel free to add whatever version of
> this you would like to the general remarks of the February report wiki
> page, where I will leave it unscathed.
>
> --benson
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 9:49 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J)
> <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>> Classifying this as a procedural vote gives the easy out of majority rule.
>>
>> It is the IPMC's recommendation to the board that the board then evaluates
>> to become a TLP or not. Based on Benson's later email he is shucking all
>> of that to the board. Benson, I would hope you consider -1s to be VETO in
>> this case, or at the very least, noting that in your report should you
>> still bull ahead and recommend it. BTW for everyone's benefit, go look up
>> the # of times that people -1 graduations. It's VERY rare, so I hope this
>> an indication that there is something seriously up here. I have nothing
>> against Hive or HCatalog -- I simply am trying to intimate this will be
>> trouble down the road.
>>
>> In the end, yes, it's the board, but it's on the recommendation of the
>> IPMC. It would be pretty lame if  the IPMC made the recommendation to
>> create HCatalog as a part of Hive per the requested method and they didn't
>> mention the 2 objections (mine which I strongly consider a VETO) and Chris
>> D.'s -0.
>>
>> Chris
>>
>> On 2/12/13 5:14 PM, "Alan Gates" <ga...@hortonworks.com> wrote:
>>
>>>So I'm not clear what the next step is here.  The 72 hours have passed,
>>>we have 5 +1 votes, 2 -1 votes, and a -0.
>>>
>>>Based on this page http://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html this
>>>appears to be a procedural vote so it just requires a majority.
>>>
>>>Are we done or is it traditional to allow more time for the vote when the
>>>issue is contentious?
>>>
>>>Alan.
>>>
>>>
>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>
>>
>>
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Re: [DISCUSS] [VOTE] HCatalog to Graduate and become part of Apache Hive

["Mattmann, Chris A (388J)" <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov>]

Hi Benson,

I saw your later email(s) and Incubator board report. It's fine and I
think the message of my objection comes across.
So thanks for that.

One thing I wanted to comment on:

On 2/13/13 4:10 AM, "Benson Margulies" <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Chris,
>
>The obvious compromise is to ask them to report the vote result as it
>happened, it seems to me, -1's and all. But where do you think that
>they are reporting anything? There's nothing happening here at the
>board level. There's no board resolution needed for a Hive committer
>to type 'svn cp' on the hcatalog tree,

Not by my counts. There's a *community* resolution and a recommendation to
be made by the IPMC, nonetheless.
Otherwise, the IPMC is pretty useless IMO, and more importantly, so is the
Incubator.

Why bother even incubating HCatalog? Hive could have simply svn cp'ed
whatever code came in, or whatever code the podling arrived at, and
Incubation would have stopped then. But we both know that's not the way it
works. Even if a podling graduates to an existing TLP, go check out the
past resolutions. You'll note there's a section in there that discharges
the responsibility of the IPMC for the podling. So, yes, the IPMC *is*
involved. And yes, the IPMC vote matters.

Cheers,
Chris


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Re: [DISCUSS] [VOTE] HCatalog to Graduate and become part of Apache Hive

[Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>]

Chris,

The obvious compromise is to ask them to report the vote result as it
happened, it seems to me, -1's and all. But where do you think that
they are reporting anything? There's nothing happening here at the
board level. There's no board resolution needed for a Hive committer
to type 'svn cp' on the hcatalog tree, nor for the Hive PMC to set up
some worrisome umbrellaesque structure of internal bylaws. When the
Hive PMC reports this after the fact, the board might response.

Having written all this, please feel free to add whatever version of
this you would like to the general remarks of the February report wiki
page, where I will leave it unscathed.

--benson


On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 9:49 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J)
<ch...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
> Classifying this as a procedural vote gives the easy out of majority rule.
>
> It is the IPMC's recommendation to the board that the board then evaluates
> to become a TLP or not. Based on Benson's later email he is shucking all
> of that to the board. Benson, I would hope you consider -1s to be VETO in
> this case, or at the very least, noting that in your report should you
> still bull ahead and recommend it. BTW for everyone's benefit, go look up
> the # of times that people -1 graduations. It's VERY rare, so I hope this
> an indication that there is something seriously up here. I have nothing
> against Hive or HCatalog -- I simply am trying to intimate this will be
> trouble down the road.
>
> In the end, yes, it's the board, but it's on the recommendation of the
> IPMC. It would be pretty lame if  the IPMC made the recommendation to
> create HCatalog as a part of Hive per the requested method and they didn't
> mention the 2 objections (mine which I strongly consider a VETO) and Chris
> D.'s -0.
>
> Chris
>
> On 2/12/13 5:14 PM, "Alan Gates" <ga...@hortonworks.com> wrote:
>
>>So I'm not clear what the next step is here.  The 72 hours have passed,
>>we have 5 +1 votes, 2 -1 votes, and a -0.
>>
>>Based on this page http://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html this
>>appears to be a procedural vote so it just requires a majority.
>>
>>Are we done or is it traditional to allow more time for the vote when the
>>issue is contentious?
>>
>>Alan.
>>
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
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>
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Re: [DISCUSS] [VOTE] HCatalog to Graduate and become part of Apache Hive

[Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>]

It has always seemed to me that graduation votes are just
recommendations from the incubator to the board. Only the board can
establish a TLP.

In this case, the vote is even less important. The HCatalog gang
proposed to merge into Hive. Hive proposes to give them a less than
warm welcome by some standards. The Hive and HCatalog communities can
cooperate to put the code in the HCatalog tree, and them the Hive
people had best plan to report to the board, promptly. And if the
board is not happy with this not-first-class-citizenship plan, the
board will communicate that to Hive and work out the next steps in the
context of Hive.

If the Hive PMC wants to ask the board in advance if their scheme is
OK, I suppose they can.

All in all, there's not much for the IPMC to say here. There's no
board resolution needed for a podling to contribute itself into an
existing TLP. So long as HCatalog's IP is in good shape, we don't have
much to do with this outcome.

In short, HCatalog is a podling until it isn't. The vote gives
information to the two communities and the board, and we'll wind up
the podling when and if we hear that it's in fact merged into Hive or
has become a TLP.



On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 8:14 PM, Alan Gates <ga...@hortonworks.com> wrote:
> So I'm not clear what the next step is here.  The 72 hours have passed, we have 5 +1 votes, 2 -1 votes, and a -0.
>
> Based on this page http://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html this appears to be a procedural vote so it just requires a majority.
>
> Are we done or is it traditional to allow more time for the vote when the issue is contentious?
>
> Alan.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [DISCUSS] [VOTE] HCatalog to Graduate and become part of Apache Hive

["Mattmann, Chris A (388J)" <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov>]

Classifying this as a procedural vote gives the easy out of majority rule.

It is the IPMC's recommendation to the board that the board then evaluates
to become a TLP or not. Based on Benson's later email he is shucking all
of that to the board. Benson, I would hope you consider -1s to be VETO in
this case, or at the very least, noting that in your report should you
still bull ahead and recommend it. BTW for everyone's benefit, go look up
the # of times that people -1 graduations. It's VERY rare, so I hope this
an indication that there is something seriously up here. I have nothing
against Hive or HCatalog -- I simply am trying to intimate this will be
trouble down the road.

In the end, yes, it's the board, but it's on the recommendation of the
IPMC. It would be pretty lame if  the IPMC made the recommendation to
create HCatalog as a part of Hive per the requested method and they didn't
mention the 2 objections (mine which I strongly consider a VETO) and Chris
D.'s -0. 

Chris

On 2/12/13 5:14 PM, "Alan Gates" <ga...@hortonworks.com> wrote:

>So I'm not clear what the next step is here.  The 72 hours have passed,
>we have 5 +1 votes, 2 -1 votes, and a -0.
>
>Based on this page http://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html this
>appears to be a procedural vote so it just requires a majority.
>
>Are we done or is it traditional to allow more time for the vote when the
>issue is contentious?
>
>Alan.
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [DISCUSS] [VOTE] HCatalog to Graduate and become part of Apache Hive

[Alan Gates <ga...@hortonworks.com>]

So I'm not clear what the next step is here.  The 72 hours have passed, we have 5 +1 votes, 2 -1 votes, and a -0.  

Based on this page http://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html this appears to be a procedural vote so it just requires a majority.

Are we done or is it traditional to allow more time for the vote when the issue is contentious?

Alan.


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Re: [DISCUSS] [VOTE] HCatalog to Graduate and become part of Apache Hive

[Alan Gates <ga...@hortonworks.com>]

On Feb 12, 2013, at 8:54 AM, Benson Margulies wrote:

> I wonder: would the Hive community be willing to take an active role
> in supervising the work of the hcatalog people with an eye toward
> reaching the conclusion that they could be accepted as committers en
> bloc?

How are you proposing this would work?  With HCat as part of Hive or still in the Incubator?

Alan.

> 
> 
> On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 11:52 AM, Alex Karasulu <ak...@apache.org> wrote:
>> On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 2:49 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <bdelacretaz@apache.org
>>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 6:03 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J)
>>> <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>>>> ...I'm -1 on this graduation...
>>> 
>>> -1 from me as well, I agree with Chris' points.
>>> 
>>> 
>> Yes these were good points however I don't think the HCatalog community has
>> enough critical mass for a TLP at this point in time. I think this and the
>> overwhelming dependencies on Hive made the community favor merging under
>> the Hive TLP. I can understand both points of view coming from Chris and
>> from Alan.
>> 
>> 
>>> This looks either like an umbrella project (which we don't want
>>> anymore) or a PMC not trusting its committers.
>>> 
>>> IMO the options are either graduating Hive as a TLP (assuming the
>>> 
>> 
>> Bertrand I am presuming you meant HCatalog as a TLP here ...
>> 
>> 
>>> podling is in good standing for that to happen), or having Hive adopt
>>> the HCatalog code *and its committers*.
>>> 
>>> 
>> It is unfortunate that the Hive TLP does not trust the HCatalog community
>> enough to merge the two. However if we're looking at a new TLP for HCatalog
>> I think we're going to have to continue trying to build community a bit
>> longer.
>> 
>> --
>> Best Regards,
>> -- Alex
> 
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Re: [DISCUSS] [VOTE] HCatalog to Graduate and become part of Apache Hive

[Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>]

I wonder: would the Hive community be willing to take an active role
in supervising the work of the hcatalog people with an eye toward
reaching the conclusion that they could be accepted as committers en
bloc?


On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 11:52 AM, Alex Karasulu <ak...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 2:49 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <bdelacretaz@apache.org
>> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 6:03 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J)
>> <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>> > ...I'm -1 on this graduation...
>>
>> -1 from me as well, I agree with Chris' points.
>>
>>
> Yes these were good points however I don't think the HCatalog community has
> enough critical mass for a TLP at this point in time. I think this and the
> overwhelming dependencies on Hive made the community favor merging under
> the Hive TLP. I can understand both points of view coming from Chris and
> from Alan.
>
>
>> This looks either like an umbrella project (which we don't want
>> anymore) or a PMC not trusting its committers.
>>
>> IMO the options are either graduating Hive as a TLP (assuming the
>>
>
> Bertrand I am presuming you meant HCatalog as a TLP here ...
>
>
>> podling is in good standing for that to happen), or having Hive adopt
>> the HCatalog code *and its committers*.
>>
>>
> It is unfortunate that the Hive TLP does not trust the HCatalog community
> enough to merge the two. However if we're looking at a new TLP for HCatalog
> I think we're going to have to continue trying to build community a bit
> longer.
>
> --
> Best Regards,
> -- Alex

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Re: [DISCUSS] [VOTE] HCatalog to Graduate and become part of Apache Hive

[Alex Karasulu <ak...@apache.org>]

On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 2:49 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <bdelacretaz@apache.org
> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 6:03 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J)
> <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
> > ...I'm -1 on this graduation...
>
> -1 from me as well, I agree with Chris' points.
>
>
Yes these were good points however I don't think the HCatalog community has
enough critical mass for a TLP at this point in time. I think this and the
overwhelming dependencies on Hive made the community favor merging under
the Hive TLP. I can understand both points of view coming from Chris and
from Alan.


> This looks either like an umbrella project (which we don't want
> anymore) or a PMC not trusting its committers.
>
> IMO the options are either graduating Hive as a TLP (assuming the
>

Bertrand I am presuming you meant HCatalog as a TLP here ...


> podling is in good standing for that to happen), or having Hive adopt
> the HCatalog code *and its committers*.
>
>
It is unfortunate that the Hive TLP does not trust the HCatalog community
enough to merge the two. However if we're looking at a new TLP for HCatalog
I think we're going to have to continue trying to build community a bit
longer.

-- 
Best Regards,
-- Alex

Re: [DISCUSS] [VOTE] HCatalog to Graduate and become part of Apache Hive

[Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>]

Hi,

On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 6:03 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J)
<ch...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
> ...I'm -1 on this graduation...

-1 from me as well, I agree with Chris' points.

This looks either like an umbrella project (which we don't want
anymore) or a PMC not trusting its committers.

IMO the options are either graduating Hive as a TLP (assuming the
podling is in good standing for that to happen), or having Hive adopt
the HCatalog code *and its committers*.

In the second case, no need for a change of bylaws - if those new
folks are committers, they can just be told to avoid touching code
that they don't master (*), and the goal should be to make them PMC
members as soon as possible, so that in the end HCatalog is just a
module of Hive, with no artificial PMC split.

-Bertrand

(*) like any committer - and a PMC can always suspend or revoke
committership in the unlikely case where that doesn't work.

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Re: [DISCUSS] [VOTE] HCatalog to Graduate and become part of Apache Hive

[Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>]

On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 5:31 AM, Ross Gardler
<rg...@opendirective.com> wrote:
> I'm brought to this thread byt he board report but my response here is as
> an IPMC member. My comment on the board report is quite different, it is
> "I've read the thread on general@ and feel that the IPMC should make a
> clear recommendation to the board in this and similar cases. The IPMC
> discussion seems to be healthy and productive."
>
> So, as a an IPMC member I have a few open questions [inline]...
>
>
> On 11 February 2013 18:20, Alan Gates <ga...@hortonworks.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
> Also, it has been agreed that each HCatalog committer will be provided with
>> a mentor from the Hive community to help him/her learn the rest of Hive,
>> with the goal of becoming a committer on Hive within six months.  The
>> submodule state is transitionary, not an end point.
>>
>>
> Why was this"mentoring" not done as part of the incubation process since
> building the right community structure for graduation (along with IP
> clearance) is the main role of the incubation process? Was Hive the
> sponsoring project for this proposal? If not why not?

Ross, my suspicion (and I haven't done the digging here on vacation)
is that HCatalog started incubation with the intention of becoming a
TLP, so their original sponsor was the incubator itself. The idea of
merging into Hive came up late in the process. So the Hive people had
no warning or reason to be part of the supervision.

Thus, your email seems to me to pose this question: "Should the IPMC
seal of approval be good enough for an existing TLP to grant committer
status?" I don't see why that should be. Projects have their own
culture and conventions, and if Hive was not participating in the
incubation process, why should those conventions be part of the
HCatalog incubation?

This brings me to my other obsessional point here. If the plan, from
the start, had been to import code to Hive, there would have been no
need for the IPMC to do anything except IP clearance. Hive could have
'incubated' via the usual mechanism of accepting patches. The notion
of 'incubate sponsored by project X' makes sense to me if the eventual
trajectory is some sort of autonomous subproject, and not otherwise.



>
> I ask these questions because HCatlog is making a very strong case that any
> other option for graduation is not appropriate. At the same time we are
> being told by the Hive PMC that the mentoring of the committers is
> incomplete since they have insufficient merit within Hive to be trusted to
> be full members of that project.
>
> it also concerns me that in this same month the IPMC board report says "The
> main concern of the incubator continues to be the quality and reliability
> of supervision... The supply of mentoring seems, still, to exceed demand."
>
> Why is it that the Hive PMC feels it is able to provide "mentoring" within
> their own PMC through the creation of what some people see as
> an umbrella project, but not here in the IPMC?
>
> Finally, why can't I find the HCatalog proposal in my mail client, markmail
> or the wiki (not had coffee yet, feel free to call me [insert adjective])
>
> Ross

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Re: [DISCUSS] [VOTE] HCatalog to Graduate and become part of Apache Hive

[Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>]

Thanks again Alan.

The fact that there appears to be no members of the Hive PMC active in the
incubator would seem to be the root cause of the need for further
mentoring/incubation post graduation.

Ross

On 23 Feb 2013 17:07, "Alan Gates" <ga...@hortonworks.com> wrote:
>
> I think that's a question for the Hive PMC.  I have some guesses, but it
seemd more appropriate to let them speak for themselves.  For some history
you can take a look at
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/hive-dev/201211.mbox/%3CC648B9DE-2088-465E-8FA1-590D5E192093%40hortonworks.com%3Ewhich
is the initial discussion between HCat and Hive.  AFAIK none of the
Hive PMC are on the IPMC, so you may need to mail private@hive or
dev@hiveto get their feedback.
>
> Alan.
>
> On Feb 23, 2013, at 2:43 AM, Ross Gardler wrote:
>
> > Thanks Alan,
> >
> > I'm still wondering why the Hive PMC feel mentoring inside the PMC is
> > appropriate but not the IPMC.
> >
> > Please understand I'm not saying I'm for or against the proposal. I'm
> > trying to understand it so that I can form an opinion as an IPMC member.
> >
> > Ross
> >
> > Sent from a mobile device, please excuse mistakes and brevity
> > On 20 Feb 2013 18:22, "Alan Gates" <ga...@hortonworks.com> wrote:
> >
> >> The project was named Howl when it was proposed, so the proposal is at
> >> http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/HowlProposal
> >>
> >> Alan.
> >>
> >> On Feb 20, 2013, at 2:31 AM, Ross Gardler wrote:
> >>
> >>> I'm brought to this thread byt he board report but my response here
is as
> >>> an IPMC member. My comment on the board report is quite different, it
is
> >>> "I've read the thread on general@ and feel that the IPMC should make a
> >>> clear recommendation to the board in this and similar cases. The IPMC
> >>> discussion seems to be healthy and productive."
> >>>
> >>> So, as a an IPMC member I have a few open questions [inline]...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 11 February 2013 18:20, Alan Gates <ga...@hortonworks.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> Also, it has been agreed that each HCatalog committer will be provided
> >> with
> >>>> a mentor from the Hive community to help him/her learn the rest of
Hive,
> >>>> with the goal of becoming a committer on Hive within six months.  The
> >>>> submodule state is transitionary, not an end point.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> Why was this"mentoring" not done as part of the incubation process
since
> >>> building the right community structure for graduation (along with IP
> >>> clearance) is the main role of the incubation process? Was Hive the
> >>> sponsoring project for this proposal? If not why not?
> >>>
> >>> I ask these questions because HCatlog is making a very strong case
that
> >> any
> >>> other option for graduation is not appropriate. At the same time we
are
> >>> being told by the Hive PMC that the mentoring of the committers is
> >>> incomplete since they have insufficient merit within Hive to be
trusted
> >> to
> >>> be full members of that project.
> >>>
> >>> it also concerns me that in this same month the IPMC board report says
> >> "The
> >>> main concern of the incubator continues to be the quality and
reliability
> >>> of supervision... The supply of mentoring seems, still, to exceed
> >> demand."
> >>>
> >>> Why is it that the Hive PMC feels it is able to provide "mentoring"
> >> within
> >>> their own PMC through the creation of what some people see as
> >>> an umbrella project, but not here in the IPMC?
> >>>
> >>> Finally, why can't I find the HCatalog proposal in my mail client,
> >> markmail
> >>> or the wiki (not had coffee yet, feel free to call me [insert
adjective])
> >>>
> >>> Ross
> >>
> >>
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> >>
> >>
>
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] [VOTE] HCatalog to Graduate and become part of Apache Hive

[Alan Gates <ga...@hortonworks.com>]

I think that's a question for the Hive PMC.  I have some guesses, but it seemd more appropriate to let them speak for themselves.  For some history you can take a look at http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/hive-dev/201211.mbox/%3CC648B9DE-2088-465E-8FA1-590D5E192093%40hortonworks.com%3E which is the initial discussion between HCat and Hive.  AFAIK none of the Hive PMC are on the IPMC, so you may need to mail private@hive or dev@hive to get their feedback.

Alan.

On Feb 23, 2013, at 2:43 AM, Ross Gardler wrote:

> Thanks Alan,
> 
> I'm still wondering why the Hive PMC feel mentoring inside the PMC is
> appropriate but not the IPMC.
> 
> Please understand I'm not saying I'm for or against the proposal. I'm
> trying to understand it so that I can form an opinion as an IPMC member.
> 
> Ross
> 
> Sent from a mobile device, please excuse mistakes and brevity
> On 20 Feb 2013 18:22, "Alan Gates" <ga...@hortonworks.com> wrote:
> 
>> The project was named Howl when it was proposed, so the proposal is at
>> http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/HowlProposal
>> 
>> Alan.
>> 
>> On Feb 20, 2013, at 2:31 AM, Ross Gardler wrote:
>> 
>>> I'm brought to this thread byt he board report but my response here is as
>>> an IPMC member. My comment on the board report is quite different, it is
>>> "I've read the thread on general@ and feel that the IPMC should make a
>>> clear recommendation to the board in this and similar cases. The IPMC
>>> discussion seems to be healthy and productive."
>>> 
>>> So, as a an IPMC member I have a few open questions [inline]...
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 11 February 2013 18:20, Alan Gates <ga...@hortonworks.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> Also, it has been agreed that each HCatalog committer will be provided
>> with
>>>> a mentor from the Hive community to help him/her learn the rest of Hive,
>>>> with the goal of becoming a committer on Hive within six months.  The
>>>> submodule state is transitionary, not an end point.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> Why was this"mentoring" not done as part of the incubation process since
>>> building the right community structure for graduation (along with IP
>>> clearance) is the main role of the incubation process? Was Hive the
>>> sponsoring project for this proposal? If not why not?
>>> 
>>> I ask these questions because HCatlog is making a very strong case that
>> any
>>> other option for graduation is not appropriate. At the same time we are
>>> being told by the Hive PMC that the mentoring of the committers is
>>> incomplete since they have insufficient merit within Hive to be trusted
>> to
>>> be full members of that project.
>>> 
>>> it also concerns me that in this same month the IPMC board report says
>> "The
>>> main concern of the incubator continues to be the quality and reliability
>>> of supervision... The supply of mentoring seems, still, to exceed
>> demand."
>>> 
>>> Why is it that the Hive PMC feels it is able to provide "mentoring"
>> within
>>> their own PMC through the creation of what some people see as
>>> an umbrella project, but not here in the IPMC?
>>> 
>>> Finally, why can't I find the HCatalog proposal in my mail client,
>> markmail
>>> or the wiki (not had coffee yet, feel free to call me [insert adjective])
>>> 
>>> Ross
>> 
>> 
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Re: [DISCUSS] [VOTE] HCatalog to Graduate and become part of Apache Hive

[Alan Gates <ga...@hortonworks.com>]

FYI, at this point based on Benson and Roy's feedback I have been considering this vote closed and passed.  We're moving forward with the details of merging the two, which will include winding down the incubator project.  Mail has been sent to dev@hive and hcatalog-dev to propose the details of the path forward.

Alan.

On Feb 23, 2013, at 2:43 AM, Ross Gardler wrote:

> Thanks Alan,
> 
> I'm still wondering why the Hive PMC feel mentoring inside the PMC is
> appropriate but not the IPMC.
> 
> Please understand I'm not saying I'm for or against the proposal. I'm
> trying to understand it so that I can form an opinion as an IPMC member.
> 
> Ross
> 
> Sent from a mobile device, please excuse mistakes and brevity
> On 20 Feb 2013 18:22, "Alan Gates" <ga...@hortonworks.com> wrote:
> 
>> The project was named Howl when it was proposed, so the proposal is at
>> http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/HowlProposal
>> 
>> Alan.
>> 
>> On Feb 20, 2013, at 2:31 AM, Ross Gardler wrote:
>> 
>>> I'm brought to this thread byt he board report but my response here is as
>>> an IPMC member. My comment on the board report is quite different, it is
>>> "I've read the thread on general@ and feel that the IPMC should make a
>>> clear recommendation to the board in this and similar cases. The IPMC
>>> discussion seems to be healthy and productive."
>>> 
>>> So, as a an IPMC member I have a few open questions [inline]...
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 11 February 2013 18:20, Alan Gates <ga...@hortonworks.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> Also, it has been agreed that each HCatalog committer will be provided
>> with
>>>> a mentor from the Hive community to help him/her learn the rest of Hive,
>>>> with the goal of becoming a committer on Hive within six months.  The
>>>> submodule state is transitionary, not an end point.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> Why was this"mentoring" not done as part of the incubation process since
>>> building the right community structure for graduation (along with IP
>>> clearance) is the main role of the incubation process? Was Hive the
>>> sponsoring project for this proposal? If not why not?
>>> 
>>> I ask these questions because HCatlog is making a very strong case that
>> any
>>> other option for graduation is not appropriate. At the same time we are
>>> being told by the Hive PMC that the mentoring of the committers is
>>> incomplete since they have insufficient merit within Hive to be trusted
>> to
>>> be full members of that project.
>>> 
>>> it also concerns me that in this same month the IPMC board report says
>> "The
>>> main concern of the incubator continues to be the quality and reliability
>>> of supervision... The supply of mentoring seems, still, to exceed
>> demand."
>>> 
>>> Why is it that the Hive PMC feels it is able to provide "mentoring"
>> within
>>> their own PMC through the creation of what some people see as
>>> an umbrella project, but not here in the IPMC?
>>> 
>>> Finally, why can't I find the HCatalog proposal in my mail client,
>> markmail
>>> or the wiki (not had coffee yet, feel free to call me [insert adjective])
>>> 
>>> Ross
>> 
>> 
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> 
>> 


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Re: [DISCUSS] [VOTE] HCatalog to Graduate and become part of Apache Hive

[Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>]

Thanks Alan,

I'm still wondering why the Hive PMC feel mentoring inside the PMC is
appropriate but not the IPMC.

Please understand I'm not saying I'm for or against the proposal. I'm
trying to understand it so that I can form an opinion as an IPMC member.

Ross

Sent from a mobile device, please excuse mistakes and brevity
On 20 Feb 2013 18:22, "Alan Gates" <ga...@hortonworks.com> wrote:

> The project was named Howl when it was proposed, so the proposal is at
> http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/HowlProposal
>
> Alan.
>
> On Feb 20, 2013, at 2:31 AM, Ross Gardler wrote:
>
> > I'm brought to this thread byt he board report but my response here is as
> > an IPMC member. My comment on the board report is quite different, it is
> > "I've read the thread on general@ and feel that the IPMC should make a
> > clear recommendation to the board in this and similar cases. The IPMC
> > discussion seems to be healthy and productive."
> >
> > So, as a an IPMC member I have a few open questions [inline]...
> >
> >
> > On 11 February 2013 18:20, Alan Gates <ga...@hortonworks.com> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> > Also, it has been agreed that each HCatalog committer will be provided
> with
> >> a mentor from the Hive community to help him/her learn the rest of Hive,
> >> with the goal of becoming a committer on Hive within six months.  The
> >> submodule state is transitionary, not an end point.
> >>
> >>
> > Why was this"mentoring" not done as part of the incubation process since
> > building the right community structure for graduation (along with IP
> > clearance) is the main role of the incubation process? Was Hive the
> > sponsoring project for this proposal? If not why not?
> >
> > I ask these questions because HCatlog is making a very strong case that
> any
> > other option for graduation is not appropriate. At the same time we are
> > being told by the Hive PMC that the mentoring of the committers is
> > incomplete since they have insufficient merit within Hive to be trusted
> to
> > be full members of that project.
> >
> > it also concerns me that in this same month the IPMC board report says
> "The
> > main concern of the incubator continues to be the quality and reliability
> > of supervision... The supply of mentoring seems, still, to exceed
> demand."
> >
> > Why is it that the Hive PMC feels it is able to provide "mentoring"
> within
> > their own PMC through the creation of what some people see as
> > an umbrella project, but not here in the IPMC?
> >
> > Finally, why can't I find the HCatalog proposal in my mail client,
> markmail
> > or the wiki (not had coffee yet, feel free to call me [insert adjective])
> >
> > Ross
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
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>
>

Re: [DISCUSS] [VOTE] HCatalog to Graduate and become part of Apache Hive

[Alan Gates <ga...@hortonworks.com>]

The project was named Howl when it was proposed, so the proposal is at http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/HowlProposal

Alan.

On Feb 20, 2013, at 2:31 AM, Ross Gardler wrote:

> I'm brought to this thread byt he board report but my response here is as
> an IPMC member. My comment on the board report is quite different, it is
> "I've read the thread on general@ and feel that the IPMC should make a
> clear recommendation to the board in this and similar cases. The IPMC
> discussion seems to be healthy and productive."
> 
> So, as a an IPMC member I have a few open questions [inline]...
> 
> 
> On 11 February 2013 18:20, Alan Gates <ga...@hortonworks.com> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> 
> Also, it has been agreed that each HCatalog committer will be provided with
>> a mentor from the Hive community to help him/her learn the rest of Hive,
>> with the goal of becoming a committer on Hive within six months.  The
>> submodule state is transitionary, not an end point.
>> 
>> 
> Why was this"mentoring" not done as part of the incubation process since
> building the right community structure for graduation (along with IP
> clearance) is the main role of the incubation process? Was Hive the
> sponsoring project for this proposal? If not why not?
> 
> I ask these questions because HCatlog is making a very strong case that any
> other option for graduation is not appropriate. At the same time we are
> being told by the Hive PMC that the mentoring of the committers is
> incomplete since they have insufficient merit within Hive to be trusted to
> be full members of that project.
> 
> it also concerns me that in this same month the IPMC board report says "The
> main concern of the incubator continues to be the quality and reliability
> of supervision... The supply of mentoring seems, still, to exceed demand."
> 
> Why is it that the Hive PMC feels it is able to provide "mentoring" within
> their own PMC through the creation of what some people see as
> an umbrella project, but not here in the IPMC?
> 
> Finally, why can't I find the HCatalog proposal in my mail client, markmail
> or the wiki (not had coffee yet, feel free to call me [insert adjective])
> 
> Ross


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Re: [DISCUSS] [VOTE] HCatalog to Graduate and become part of Apache Hive

[Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>]

I'm brought to this thread byt he board report but my response here is as
an IPMC member. My comment on the board report is quite different, it is
"I've read the thread on general@ and feel that the IPMC should make a
clear recommendation to the board in this and similar cases. The IPMC
discussion seems to be healthy and productive."

So, as a an IPMC member I have a few open questions [inline]...


On 11 February 2013 18:20, Alan Gates <ga...@hortonworks.com> wrote:

>
>
Also, it has been agreed that each HCatalog committer will be provided with
> a mentor from the Hive community to help him/her learn the rest of Hive,
> with the goal of becoming a committer on Hive within six months.  The
> submodule state is transitionary, not an end point.
>
>
Why was this"mentoring" not done as part of the incubation process since
building the right community structure for graduation (along with IP
clearance) is the main role of the incubation process? Was Hive the
sponsoring project for this proposal? If not why not?

I ask these questions because HCatlog is making a very strong case that any
other option for graduation is not appropriate. At the same time we are
being told by the Hive PMC that the mentoring of the committers is
incomplete since they have insufficient merit within Hive to be trusted to
be full members of that project.

it also concerns me that in this same month the IPMC board report says "The
main concern of the incubator continues to be the quality and reliability
of supervision... The supply of mentoring seems, still, to exceed demand."

Why is it that the Hive PMC feels it is able to provide "mentoring" within
their own PMC through the creation of what some people see as
an umbrella project, but not here in the IPMC?

Finally, why can't I find the HCatalog proposal in my mail client, markmail
or the wiki (not had coffee yet, feel free to call me [insert adjective])

Ross

Re: [DISCUSS] [VOTE] HCatalog to Graduate and become part of Apache Hive

[Chris Douglas <cd...@apache.org>]

-0 on graduation into Hive.

>From the [DISCUSS] thread: http://s.apache.org/as9 , this sounds like
a compromise with members of the Hive PMC who see HCatalog as "a set
of wrapper APIs that make Hive's metastore and serdes accessible to
Pig and MR", so they question whether members of that community can
discharge the responsibilities of Hive committers (reviewing patches,
etc.). Others claim it's unfair to existing Hive contributors to
extend committership based on group membership rather than the
criteria they've applied to individuals. Is that a fair summary?

It's a delicate thing to merge communities, but if the Hive PMC is
unwilling to share authority with the HCatalog developers, then Hive
is voting to take a dependency on HCatalog in exchange for control
over its development. Those bylaws are a prenup, granting existing
Hive developers privilege over the assets of both parties. Maybe the
HCatalog community prefers this to its other options, but it's an odd
arrangement.

If the HCatalog code is core to Hive and a significant delta, then I
agree with ChrisM: merge the projects or don't. If the code a
community produces is good enough to adopt, then why subject members
of that community to this audit? Why endure the meddling from outside
the project over unorthodox bylaws? Is this an avoidable waste of
energy?

Which is not to say that Hive devs don't have good, even technical
reasons for adding these protections. Adding all those people will
make the project different, and different could be worse. But allowing
passion for the project's integrity to trump an honest accounting of
its membership invites a permanent discussion that will embitter
everyone. It's clear this is a carefully negotiated, trial merge of
the projects, so it's fair to assume all parties know what's in their
interest, but I hope the costs are fully appreciated as they move
forward. -C

On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 10:40 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J)
<ch...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
> Hi Alan,
>
> On 2/11/13 10:20 AM, "Alan Gates" <ga...@hortonworks.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>On Feb 8, 2013, at 9:03 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Alan,
>>>
>>> Thanks for the pointer.
>>>
>>> I'm -1 on this graduation for the following reasons:
>>>
>>> 1. It looks eerily similar to the creation of umbrella projects. I would
>>> expect the ASF board to not be happy with the graduation of a podling as
>>> effectively a sub project of an established TLP, with the sub project
>>> status maintained through a rather lengthy set of bylaws that after
>>>trying
>>> to read through for about 5 mins I decided to stop. TL;DR
>>
>>Our goal is not to repeat the umbrella project situation that happened
>>with Hadoop.  The goal is to give the Hive community time to get to know
>>the HCatalog committers and time for the HCatalog community to learn
>>about Hive beyond the metadata portions they have been working with.
>
> IMO, the above statement conflicts with the below statement:
>
> {quote}
> Because we believe it makes sense, from both a community and code
> perspective, that these projects are together.  HCatalog opens up Hive's
> metadata for use by other tools on Hadoop and for external systems.  It
> doesn't make sense to any of us that this is separated from Hive with a
> different PMC, different release cycle, etc.
>
> {quote}
>
> If it makes sense from a community and code perspective to bring the
> projects together, there shouldn't be a need for time from the Hive
> community to get to know HCatalog (or vice versa). Either they know the
> code and/or are willing to take on its stewardship (which kind of
> necessitates knowing the code), or they don't.
>
>> To avoid the umbrella project status the by laws specifically prohibit
>>creating new committers with access only to HCatalog.  Also, it has been
>>agreed that each HCatalog committer will be provided with a mentor from
>>the Hive community to help him/her learn the rest of Hive, with the goal
>>of becoming a committer on Hive within six months.  The submodule state
>>is transitionary, not an end point.
>
> Why introduce a transitionary state then? If in 6 months Hive and HCatalog
> are ready to merge, you can just as easily create a board resolution to
> merge the 2 projects at the time, the Incubator -> TLP and TLP status is
> not an end state.
>
> However, I'm against setting a precedent for umbrella project creation,
> which I believe this to be.
>
>>
>>>
>>> 2. If the two communities can't be merged by simply merging the PPMC
>>>into
>>> the PMC, then why not simply graduate HCatalog as its own TLP?
>>
>>Because we believe it makes sense, from both a community and code
>>perspective, that these projects are together.  HCatalog opens up Hive's
>>metadata for use by other tools on Hadoop and for external systems.  It
>>doesn't make sense to any of us that this is separated from Hive with a
>>different PMC, different release cycle, etc.
>
> It's been separated while in Incubation, so nothing is changing if it
> becomes a TLP, it's business as usual. And if in 6 months, the Hive PMC is
> ready to accept the HCatalog PMC (and vice versa), then deal with it then
> as 2 TLPs becoming 1 TLP.
>
> But I'm not going to VOTE positively for a graduation that requires bylaws
> to draw these artificial lines which already exist at the ASF and have
> been around for quite a while longer than any of us have at the
> Foundation.
>
> Chris
>
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] [VOTE] HCatalog to Graduate and become part of Apache Hive

["Mattmann, Chris A (388J)" <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov>]

Hi Alan,

On 2/11/13 10:20 AM, "Alan Gates" <ga...@hortonworks.com> wrote:

>
>On Feb 8, 2013, at 9:03 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) wrote:
>
>> Hi Alan,
>> 
>> Thanks for the pointer.
>> 
>> I'm -1 on this graduation for the following reasons:
>> 
>> 1. It looks eerily similar to the creation of umbrella projects. I would
>> expect the ASF board to not be happy with the graduation of a podling as
>> effectively a sub project of an established TLP, with the sub project
>> status maintained through a rather lengthy set of bylaws that after
>>trying
>> to read through for about 5 mins I decided to stop. TL;DR
>
>Our goal is not to repeat the umbrella project situation that happened
>with Hadoop.  The goal is to give the Hive community time to get to know
>the HCatalog committers and time for the HCatalog community to learn
>about Hive beyond the metadata portions they have been working with.

IMO, the above statement conflicts with the below statement:

{quote}
Because we believe it makes sense, from both a community and code
perspective, that these projects are together.  HCatalog opens up Hive's
metadata for use by other tools on Hadoop and for external systems.  It
doesn't make sense to any of us that this is separated from Hive with a
different PMC, different release cycle, etc.

{quote}

If it makes sense from a community and code perspective to bring the
projects together, there shouldn't be a need for time from the Hive
community to get to know HCatalog (or vice versa). Either they know the
code and/or are willing to take on its stewardship (which kind of
necessitates knowing the code), or they don't.

> To avoid the umbrella project status the by laws specifically prohibit
>creating new committers with access only to HCatalog.  Also, it has been
>agreed that each HCatalog committer will be provided with a mentor from
>the Hive community to help him/her learn the rest of Hive, with the goal
>of becoming a committer on Hive within six months.  The submodule state
>is transitionary, not an end point.

Why introduce a transitionary state then? If in 6 months Hive and HCatalog
are ready to merge, you can just as easily create a board resolution to
merge the 2 projects at the time, the Incubator -> TLP and TLP status is
not an end state.

However, I'm against setting a precedent for umbrella project creation,
which I believe this to be.

>
>> 
>> 2. If the two communities can't be merged by simply merging the PPMC
>>into
>> the PMC, then why not simply graduate HCatalog as its own TLP?
>
>Because we believe it makes sense, from both a community and code
>perspective, that these projects are together.  HCatalog opens up Hive's
>metadata for use by other tools on Hadoop and for external systems.  It
>doesn't make sense to any of us that this is separated from Hive with a
>different PMC, different release cycle, etc.

It's been separated while in Incubation, so nothing is changing if it
becomes a TLP, it's business as usual. And if in 6 months, the Hive PMC is
ready to accept the HCatalog PMC (and vice versa), then deal with it then
as 2 TLPs becoming 1 TLP.

But I'm not going to VOTE positively for a graduation that requires bylaws
to draw these artificial lines which already exist at the ASF and have
been around for quite a while longer than any of us have at the
Foundation. 

Chris


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Re: [DISCUSS] [VOTE] HCatalog to Graduate and become part of Apache Hive

[Alan Gates <ga...@hortonworks.com>]

On Feb 8, 2013, at 9:03 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) wrote:

> Hi Alan,
> 
> Thanks for the pointer.
> 
> I'm -1 on this graduation for the following reasons:
> 
> 1. It looks eerily similar to the creation of umbrella projects. I would
> expect the ASF board to not be happy with the graduation of a podling as
> effectively a sub project of an established TLP, with the sub project
> status maintained through a rather lengthy set of bylaws that after trying
> to read through for about 5 mins I decided to stop. TL;DR

Our goal is not to repeat the umbrella project situation that happened with Hadoop.  The goal is to give the Hive community time to get to know the HCatalog committers and time for the HCatalog community to learn about Hive beyond the metadata portions they have been working with.  To avoid the umbrella project status the by laws specifically prohibit creating new committers with access only to HCatalog.  Also, it has been agreed that each HCatalog committer will be provided with a mentor from the Hive community to help him/her learn the rest of Hive, with the goal of becoming a committer on Hive within six months.  The submodule state is transitionary, not an end point.

> 
> 2. If the two communities can't be merged by simply merging the PPMC into
> the PMC, then why not simply graduate HCatalog as its own TLP?

Because we believe it makes sense, from both a community and code perspective, that these projects are together.  HCatalog opens up Hive's metadata for use by other tools on Hadoop and for external systems.  It doesn't make sense to any of us that this is separated from Hive with a different PMC, different release cycle, etc.
  
> 
> 3. I get a little nervous every time I see bylaws used to draw artificial
> lines and to create new roles that don't exist at Apache. "sub module
> committer"? How is this comparable across projects? It's not really.
> Projects don't have to be strictly comparable, but realize that you report
> to the Board with common criteria, and so thus at some level projects are
> comparable.


> 
> I'd like to understand the answers to my above questions and I'd urge
> other PMC members to take a look at this. It seems to be a recipe for
> later issues, based on past experience with Hadoop, Lucene, and other
> umbrellas that were dismantled.
> 
> Chris
> 
> 
> On 2/8/13 4:33 PM, "Alan Gates" <ga...@hortonworks.com> wrote:
> 
>> No.  See the thread of the Hive vote at
>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/hive-dev/201301.mbox/%3cCACf6Rrzk
>> tBYD0suZxn3Pfv8XkR=vgwszRZyB_2qVeSuj2vhaVg@mail.gmail.com%3e for a
>> discussion of how the teams will be merged.
>> 
>> Alan.
>> 
>> On Feb 8, 2013, at 3:58 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) wrote:
>> 
>>> Dear Alan,
>>> 
>>> Just a quick question: does this mean that the Hive PMC += (Apache
>>> HCatalog Incubating PPMC)?
>>> 
>>> Thanks.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> Chris
>>> 
>>> On 2/8/13 11:38 AM, "Alan Gates" <ga...@hortonworks.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Apache HCatalog entered incubation in March of 2011.  In the process it
>>>> has added five new committers and two new PPMC members and made 3
>>>> successful releases.
>>>> 
>>>> The Hive PMC has voted to accept HCatalog as a part of Hive.  The vote
>>>> thread for this is at
>>>> 
>>>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/hive-dev/201301.mbox/%3cCACf6Rr
>>>> zk
>>>> tBYD0suZxn3Pfv8XkR=vgwszRZyB_2qVeSuj2vhaVg@mail.gmail.com%3e
>>>> 
>>>> The HCatalog PPMC has voted to accept this invitation.  The vote thread
>>>> for that is at:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-hcatalog-dev/201302.m
>>>> bo
>>>> x/%3cD6CC6C77-9E4F-48F6-B49F-A7E378889274@hortonworks.com%3e
>>>> 
>>>> additional votes for this can be found at:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/201302.mbox/%
>>>> 3c
>>>> 3F7D9868-7D0D-4C08-831A-FF4735394E12@hortonworks.com%3e
>>>> 
>>>> and
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/hive-dev/201302.mbox/%3c3F7D986
>>>> 8-
>>>> 7D0D-4C08-831A-FF4735394E12@hortonworks.com%3e
>>>> 
>>>> (these are threads I forwarded to dev@hive and general@incubator as an
>>>> FYI but people got confused and voted on the wrong thread).
>>>> 
>>>> We have already received +1s from the following IPMC members on the
>>>> previous threads:
>>>> 
>>>> Arun Murthy
>>>> Owen O'Malley
>>>> Alex Karasulu
>>>> Jakob Homan
>>>> Alan Gates
>>>> 
>>>> Please cast your vote.  The vote will remain open until 12 PST Feb 11.
>>>> 
>>>> Alan.
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>>> 
>>> 
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Re: [DISCUSS] [VOTE] HCatalog to Graduate and become part of Apache Hive

["Mattmann, Chris A (388J)" <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov>]

Hi Alan,

Thanks for the pointer.

I'm -1 on this graduation for the following reasons:

1. It looks eerily similar to the creation of umbrella projects. I would
expect the ASF board to not be happy with the graduation of a podling as
effectively a sub project of an established TLP, with the sub project
status maintained through a rather lengthy set of bylaws that after trying
to read through for about 5 mins I decided to stop. TL;DR

2. If the two communities can't be merged by simply merging the PPMC into
the PMC, then why not simply graduate HCatalog as its own TLP?

3. I get a little nervous every time I see bylaws used to draw artificial
lines and to create new roles that don't exist at Apache. "sub module
committer"? How is this comparable across projects? It's not really.
Projects don't have to be strictly comparable, but realize that you report
to the Board with common criteria, and so thus at some level projects are
comparable.

I'd like to understand the answers to my above questions and I'd urge
other PMC members to take a look at this. It seems to be a recipe for
later issues, based on past experience with Hadoop, Lucene, and other
umbrellas that were dismantled.

Chris


On 2/8/13 4:33 PM, "Alan Gates" <ga...@hortonworks.com> wrote:

>No.  See the thread of the Hive vote at
>http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/hive-dev/201301.mbox/%3cCACf6Rrzk
>tBYD0suZxn3Pfv8XkR=vgwszRZyB_2qVeSuj2vhaVg@mail.gmail.com%3e for a
>discussion of how the teams will be merged.
>
>Alan.
>
>On Feb 8, 2013, at 3:58 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) wrote:
>
>> Dear Alan,
>> 
>> Just a quick question: does this mean that the Hive PMC += (Apache
>> HCatalog Incubating PPMC)?
>> 
>> Thanks.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Chris
>> 
>> On 2/8/13 11:38 AM, "Alan Gates" <ga...@hortonworks.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Apache HCatalog entered incubation in March of 2011.  In the process it
>>> has added five new committers and two new PPMC members and made 3
>>> successful releases.
>>> 
>>> The Hive PMC has voted to accept HCatalog as a part of Hive.  The vote
>>> thread for this is at
>>> 
>>>http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/hive-dev/201301.mbox/%3cCACf6Rr
>>>zk
>>> tBYD0suZxn3Pfv8XkR=vgwszRZyB_2qVeSuj2vhaVg@mail.gmail.com%3e
>>> 
>>> The HCatalog PPMC has voted to accept this invitation.  The vote thread
>>> for that is at:
>>> 
>>> 
>>>http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-hcatalog-dev/201302.m
>>>bo
>>> x/%3cD6CC6C77-9E4F-48F6-B49F-A7E378889274@hortonworks.com%3e
>>> 
>>> additional votes for this can be found at:
>>> 
>>> 
>>>http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/201302.mbox/%
>>>3c
>>> 3F7D9868-7D0D-4C08-831A-FF4735394E12@hortonworks.com%3e
>>> 
>>> and
>>> 
>>> 
>>>http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/hive-dev/201302.mbox/%3c3F7D986
>>>8-
>>> 7D0D-4C08-831A-FF4735394E12@hortonworks.com%3e
>>> 
>>> (these are threads I forwarded to dev@hive and general@incubator as an
>>> FYI but people got confused and voted on the wrong thread).
>>> 
>>> We have already received +1s from the following IPMC members on the
>>> previous threads:
>>> 
>>> Arun Murthy
>>> Owen O'Malley
>>> Alex Karasulu
>>> Jakob Homan
>>> Alan Gates
>>> 
>>> Please cast your vote.  The vote will remain open until 12 PST Feb 11.
>>> 
>>> Alan.
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [DISCUSS] [VOTE] HCatalog to Graduate and become part of Apache Hive

[Alan Gates <ga...@hortonworks.com>]

No.  See the thread of the Hive vote at http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/hive-dev/201301.mbox/%3cCACf6RrzktBYD0suZxn3Pfv8XkR=vgwszRZyB_2qVeSuj2vhaVg@mail.gmail.com%3e for a discussion of how the teams will be merged.

Alan.

On Feb 8, 2013, at 3:58 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) wrote:

> Dear Alan,
> 
> Just a quick question: does this mean that the Hive PMC += (Apache
> HCatalog Incubating PPMC)?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Cheers,
> Chris
> 
> On 2/8/13 11:38 AM, "Alan Gates" <ga...@hortonworks.com> wrote:
> 
>> Apache HCatalog entered incubation in March of 2011.  In the process it
>> has added five new committers and two new PPMC members and made 3
>> successful releases.
>> 
>> The Hive PMC has voted to accept HCatalog as a part of Hive.  The vote
>> thread for this is at
>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/hive-dev/201301.mbox/%3cCACf6Rrzk
>> tBYD0suZxn3Pfv8XkR=vgwszRZyB_2qVeSuj2vhaVg@mail.gmail.com%3e
>> 
>> The HCatalog PPMC has voted to accept this invitation.  The vote thread
>> for that is at:
>> 
>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-hcatalog-dev/201302.mbo
>> x/%3cD6CC6C77-9E4F-48F6-B49F-A7E378889274@hortonworks.com%3e
>> 
>> additional votes for this can be found at:
>> 
>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/201302.mbox/%3c
>> 3F7D9868-7D0D-4C08-831A-FF4735394E12@hortonworks.com%3e
>> 
>> and
>> 
>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/hive-dev/201302.mbox/%3c3F7D9868-
>> 7D0D-4C08-831A-FF4735394E12@hortonworks.com%3e
>> 
>> (these are threads I forwarded to dev@hive and general@incubator as an
>> FYI but people got confused and voted on the wrong thread).
>> 
>> We have already received +1s from the following IPMC members on the
>> previous threads:
>> 
>> Arun Murthy
>> Owen O'Malley
>> Alex Karasulu
>> Jakob Homan
>> Alan Gates
>> 
>> Please cast your vote.  The vote will remain open until 12 PST Feb 11.
>> 
>> Alan.
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>> 
> 
> 
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[DISCUSS] [VOTE] HCatalog to Graduate and become part of Apache Hive

["Mattmann, Chris A (388J)" <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov>]

Dear Alan,

Just a quick question: does this mean that the Hive PMC += (Apache
HCatalog Incubating PPMC)?

Thanks.

Cheers,
Chris

On 2/8/13 11:38 AM, "Alan Gates" <ga...@hortonworks.com> wrote:

>Apache HCatalog entered incubation in March of 2011.  In the process it
>has added five new committers and two new PPMC members and made 3
>successful releases.
>
>The Hive PMC has voted to accept HCatalog as a part of Hive.  The vote
>thread for this is at
>http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/hive-dev/201301.mbox/%3cCACf6Rrzk
>tBYD0suZxn3Pfv8XkR=vgwszRZyB_2qVeSuj2vhaVg@mail.gmail.com%3e
>
>The HCatalog PPMC has voted to accept this invitation.  The vote thread
>for that is at:
>
>http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-hcatalog-dev/201302.mbo
>x/%3cD6CC6C77-9E4F-48F6-B49F-A7E378889274@hortonworks.com%3e
>
>additional votes for this can be found at:
>
>http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/201302.mbox/%3c
>3F7D9868-7D0D-4C08-831A-FF4735394E12@hortonworks.com%3e
>
>and
>
>http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/hive-dev/201302.mbox/%3c3F7D9868-
>7D0D-4C08-831A-FF4735394E12@hortonworks.com%3e
>
>(these are threads I forwarded to dev@hive and general@incubator as an
>FYI but people got confused and voted on the wrong thread).
>
>We have already received +1s from the following IPMC members on the
>previous threads:
>
>Arun Murthy
>Owen O'Malley
>Alex Karasulu
>Jakob Homan
>Alan Gates
>
>Please cast your vote.  The vote will remain open until 12 PST Feb 11.
>
>Alan.
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