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Posted to general@jakarta.apache.org by David Sean Taylor <da...@bluesunrise.com> on 2004/04/20 19:27:19 UTC
Hibernate in Apache projects
The Jetspeed team would like to use the Hibernate open source project
in our project.
http://www.hibernate.org/
I've been reading through the licensing and Im not entirely sure if its
compatible with the Apache license.
I think I've seen where Turbine now works with Hibernate.
Could some one clearly tell us: can we use Hibernate in Apache projects?
Thanks,
--
David Sean Taylor
taylor@apache.org
Apache Portals http://portals.apache.org
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Re: Hibernate in Apache projects
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
On Wed, 21 Apr 2004, Stefan Bodewig wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Apr 2004, David Sean Taylor <da...@bluesunrise.com> wrote:
>
> > I've been reading through the licensing and Im not entirely sure if
> > its compatible with the Apache license.
>
> Let's assume for a moment that ASL and LGPL would be compatible. We
> could release a combined work, no problem. A pure end-user would pick
> up the release and has to accept both licenses, probably no problem
> either. But if a company wants to build a product on top of our
> release - something the ASF encourages strongly - they probably will
> have a problem with accepting the LGPL.
And not even really a product. Imagine Lucene being usd in an Applet with
some LGPL licenced language handler. If said Applet was something
customers would use, you'd be in murky water I imagine.
I'm not even sure what the legalities are if all you do is 'distribute'
said Applet or Webstart application to a sibling company, or maybe the
company who just bought your company. Maybe FUD, maybe legal nightmare.
A couple of times reading this thread I felt like suggesting that the ASF
have an official Apache LGPL components site, which could depend on Apache
ASL components but not vice versa, rather than having lots of unofficial
sites, but it quickly becomes obvious that this just isn't a kettle of
fish the ASF would want to get into.
Maybe the best would be for apache-legal-nightmare.sourceforge.net to
exist where we can put all our stuff together. Community driven rather
than legally driven. agpl.sourceforge.net.
Hen
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Re: Hibernate in Apache projects
Posted by Stefan Bodewig <bo...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 20 Apr 2004, David Sean Taylor <da...@bluesunrise.com> wrote:
> I've been reading through the licensing and Im not entirely sure if
> its compatible with the Apache license.
Roy once pointed out why he things the LGPL is more or less identical
to the GPL when it comes to Java[1]. If he's correct, the only option
really would be a layer in between as Noel says, something that
completely abstracts away the library (like JDBC) or maybe a layer
purely based on JMX.
While ASL and LGPL may or may not be compatible (or could be made
compatible with layers in between), this is not really the main issue
for Apache releases IIUC.
If your release requires a LGPL library and doesn't work without it,
it means that all your users have to accept the LGPL in addition to
the Apache Software license. This is true for any other other license
as well, that's why mixing licenses should be avoided anyway.
Let's assume for a moment that ASL and LGPL would be compatible. We
could release a combined work, no problem. A pure end-user would pick
up the release and has to accept both licenses, probably no problem
either. But if a company wants to build a product on top of our
release - something the ASF encourages strongly - they probably will
have a problem with accepting the LGPL.
Stefan
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Re: Hibernate in Apache projects
Posted by David Sean Taylor <da...@bluesunrise.com>.
On Apr 20, 2004, at 2:14 PM, Brian McCallister wrote:
> I wasn't trying to put you in a bad light -- truly I wasn't. I
> apologize for coming across that way.
>
No problem.
> I regret that you had a bad experience with OJB and lost development
> time and effort as a result -- and I want to make OJB better. OJB has
> definite rough spots, I certainly cannot claim otherwise. It does do a
> lot of things very well though, and I intend to do what I can to help
> it get even better (and clean up the rough spots). Release management
> is something we have done very poorly thus far.
>
We have a lot of code invested in OJB. We'd like to resolve our issues
by moving to the latest release candidate (or final release) if
possible, if we can pass all unit tests.
I for one would like to see Jetspeed-2 continue to support OJB as a
persistence back-end, so we can concentrate on other features.
Writing a new Hibernate persistence back-end will take up valuable
developer time which could be better spent on needed portal features.
> I wasn't asking you why were looking at Hibernate (it is a great
> project), I was offering to try to help make OJB work for you in order
> to help solve your problem (O/R mapping compatible with the
> restrictions on what we can put in ASF cvs) as Hibernate,
> unfortunately, cannot to my knowledge be linked in ASF codebases. I
> don't have any investment in whether you use OJB, Hibernate, TJDO,
> Cayenne, Speedo, EJB-CMP, iBatis, Spring-DAO, or Fazoogle Data
> Objects.
Yes, as Noel states we cannot import modules.
I'd like to say that I have used OJB in one project, but I didn't use
any of the advanced features.
I saw the problems we were having in Jetspeed-2, and steered clear of
any complex object-relationship management provided by OJB.
This project has now had months of production usage and OJB has
performed very well. We don't have one bug logged against OJB.
Since you are offering your help, I invite you to join the jetspeed-dev
list where we can discuss our issues in more detail.
Let me know when you have joined and I will start a thread there.
Look forward to working with you on our OJB issues, thanks again,
--
David Sean Taylor
Bluesunrise Software
david@bluesunrise.com
[office] +01 707 773-4646
[mobile] +01 707 529 9194
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Re: Hibernate in Apache projects
Posted by Brian McCallister <br...@apache.org>.
I wasn't trying to put you in a bad light -- truly I wasn't. I
apologize for coming across that way.
I regret that you had a bad experience with OJB and lost development
time and effort as a result -- and I want to make OJB better. OJB has
definite rough spots, I certainly cannot claim otherwise. It does do a
lot of things very well though, and I intend to do what I can to help
it get even better (and clean up the rough spots). Release management
is something we have done very poorly thus far.
I wasn't asking you why were looking at Hibernate (it is a great
project), I was offering to try to help make OJB work for you in order
to help solve your problem (O/R mapping compatible with the
restrictions on what we can put in ASF cvs) as Hibernate,
unfortunately, cannot to my knowledge be linked in ASF codebases. I
don't have any investment in whether you use OJB, Hibernate, TJDO,
Cayenne, Speedo, EJB-CMP, iBatis, Spring-DAO, or Fazoogle Data Objects.
-Brian
On Apr 20, 2004, at 4:28 PM, David Sean Taylor wrote:
>
> On Apr 20, 2004, at 12:59 PM, Brian McCallister wrote:
>
>> I'm sorry to hear that, I am also sorry to see that I cannot find any
>> posts from you ojb-users or ojb-dev list archives about this =( OJB
>> can be a bear, but the problems you seem to have had (based on the
>> bile in the last email) sound like there was a misunderstanding on
>> how something works.
>>
> I see you are trying to put me in a bad light in defense of your
> project, and I don't appreciate it.
> I am not the OJB advocate at Jetspeed.
> Search for Scott Weaver and David Le Strat's posts
> Or contact Scott or David directly. They can explain the issues much
> better than I.
> I invite you to discuss this on the jetspeed-dev list.
> Scott has a lot of OJB experience and I believe he understands OJB
> very well.
> Perhaps its bile to you. But you asked why we were looking at
> Hibernate, and I was simply trying to explain to you a very bad
> experience with OJB.
>
>> On the Hibernate thing -- you could adapt the Cocoon approach and
>> have a non-ASF site with ASL incompatible modules.
>>
> Yes, this sounds like a solution.
> So we host a non-apache maven site with ASL incompatible modules.
> Thanks for your help. I do look forward to trying out Hibernate.
>
>> -Brian
>>
>> On Apr 20, 2004, at 3:15 PM, David Sean Taylor wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Apr 20, 2004, at 11:54 AM, Brian McCallister wrote:
>>>
>>>> As far as I know nothing has changed in regards to linking to LGPL
>>>> code in ASL code that we host.
>>>>
>>>> On a tangentially related not -- if there is anything that
>>>> Hibernate does that OJB doesn't, let us know and we'll fix that
>>>> problem =) The only major feature Hibernate has that OJB does not
>>>> is a marketing budget, to my knowledge.
>>>>
>>> We've had quality issues with release candidates failing where
>>> previous release candidates worked.
>>> We are now at the point where we need RC5 for one component, and RC4
>>> for another.
>>> Many hours were spent debugging OJB and it caused us weeks of lost
>>> development time. The OJB error messages are not helpful.
>>> In Jetspeed we have a persistence layer and would like to try
>>> writing a plugin for Hibernate to see if we get more stability.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
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>>
>>
>
> --
> David Sean Taylor
> Bluesunrise Software
> david@bluesunrise.com
> [office] +01 707 773-4646
> [mobile] +01 707 529 9194
>
>
>
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>
>
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Re: Hibernate in Apache projects
Posted by David Sean Taylor <da...@bluesunrise.com>.
On Apr 20, 2004, at 12:59 PM, Brian McCallister wrote:
> I'm sorry to hear that, I am also sorry to see that I cannot find any
> posts from you ojb-users or ojb-dev list archives about this =( OJB
> can be a bear, but the problems you seem to have had (based on the
> bile in the last email) sound like there was a misunderstanding on how
> something works.
>
I see you are trying to put me in a bad light in defense of your
project, and I don't appreciate it.
I am not the OJB advocate at Jetspeed.
Search for Scott Weaver and David Le Strat's posts
Or contact Scott or David directly. They can explain the issues much
better than I.
I invite you to discuss this on the jetspeed-dev list.
Scott has a lot of OJB experience and I believe he understands OJB very
well.
Perhaps its bile to you. But you asked why we were looking at
Hibernate, and I was simply trying to explain to you a very bad
experience with OJB.
> On the Hibernate thing -- you could adapt the Cocoon approach and have
> a non-ASF site with ASL incompatible modules.
>
Yes, this sounds like a solution.
So we host a non-apache maven site with ASL incompatible modules.
Thanks for your help. I do look forward to trying out Hibernate.
> -Brian
>
> On Apr 20, 2004, at 3:15 PM, David Sean Taylor wrote:
>
>>
>> On Apr 20, 2004, at 11:54 AM, Brian McCallister wrote:
>>
>>> As far as I know nothing has changed in regards to linking to LGPL
>>> code in ASL code that we host.
>>>
>>> On a tangentially related not -- if there is anything that Hibernate
>>> does that OJB doesn't, let us know and we'll fix that problem =) The
>>> only major feature Hibernate has that OJB does not is a marketing
>>> budget, to my knowledge.
>>>
>> We've had quality issues with release candidates failing where
>> previous release candidates worked.
>> We are now at the point where we need RC5 for one component, and RC4
>> for another.
>> Many hours were spent debugging OJB and it caused us weeks of lost
>> development time. The OJB error messages are not helpful.
>> In Jetspeed we have a persistence layer and would like to try writing
>> a plugin for Hibernate to see if we get more stability.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
--
David Sean Taylor
Bluesunrise Software
david@bluesunrise.com
[office] +01 707 773-4646
[mobile] +01 707 529 9194
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RE: Hibernate in Apache projects
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> > As far as I know nothing has changed in regards to linking to LGPL
> > code in ASL code that we host.
As I understand it, we do not want to link to LGPL code directly, but can
use it under another interface, e.g., we cannot import an LGPL package, but
if we have an LGPL service provider for JDBC, JNDI, etc., that is OK.
> if there is anything that Hibernate does that OJB doesn't, let
> us know and we'll fix that problem =) The only major feature
> Hibernate has that OJB does not is a marketing budget, to my knowledge.
Oh that is rediculous, if true! I hear about Hiberate all the time, but I
never hear about OJB, and I had no idea it was in the same domain. We
really need to help promote our own dogfood, at least to each other.
And, we need to improve inter-project collaboration so that when there are
issues, people find out about them so that they can fix them.
--- Noel
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Re: Hibernate in Apache projects
Posted by Brian McCallister <br...@apache.org>.
I'm sorry to hear that, I am also sorry to see that I cannot find any
posts from you ojb-users or ojb-dev list archives about this =( OJB can
be a bear, but the problems you seem to have had (based on the bile in
the last email) sound like there was a misunderstanding on how
something works.
On the Hibernate thing -- you could adapt the Cocoon approach and have
a non-ASF site with ASL incompatible modules.
-Brian
On Apr 20, 2004, at 3:15 PM, David Sean Taylor wrote:
>
> On Apr 20, 2004, at 11:54 AM, Brian McCallister wrote:
>
>> As far as I know nothing has changed in regards to linking to LGPL
>> code in ASL code that we host.
>>
>> On a tangentially related not -- if there is anything that Hibernate
>> does that OJB doesn't, let us know and we'll fix that problem =) The
>> only major feature Hibernate has that OJB does not is a marketing
>> budget, to my knowledge.
>>
> We've had quality issues with release candidates failing where
> previous release candidates worked.
> We are now at the point where we need RC5 for one component, and RC4
> for another.
> Many hours were spent debugging OJB and it caused us weeks of lost
> development time. The OJB error messages are not helpful.
> In Jetspeed we have a persistence layer and would like to try writing
> a plugin for Hibernate to see if we get more stability.
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
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Re: Hibernate in Apache projects
Posted by David Sean Taylor <da...@bluesunrise.com>.
On Apr 20, 2004, at 11:54 AM, Brian McCallister wrote:
> As far as I know nothing has changed in regards to linking to LGPL
> code in ASL code that we host.
>
> On a tangentially related not -- if there is anything that Hibernate
> does that OJB doesn't, let us know and we'll fix that problem =) The
> only major feature Hibernate has that OJB does not is a marketing
> budget, to my knowledge.
>
We've had quality issues with release candidates failing where previous
release candidates worked.
We are now at the point where we need RC5 for one component, and RC4
for another.
Many hours were spent debugging OJB and it caused us weeks of lost
development time. The OJB error messages are not helpful.
In Jetspeed we have a persistence layer and would like to try writing a
plugin for Hibernate to see if we get more stability.
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Re: Hibernate in Apache projects
Posted by Brian McCallister <br...@apache.org>.
As far as I know nothing has changed in regards to linking to LGPL code
in ASL code that we host.
On a tangentially related not -- if there is anything that Hibernate
does that OJB doesn't, let us know and we'll fix that problem =) The
only major feature Hibernate has that OJB does not is a marketing
budget, to my knowledge.
-Brian
On Apr 20, 2004, at 1:50 PM, Howard M. Lewis Ship wrote:
> This is a good subject w.r.t. Tapestry and HiveMind as well. The
> previous restriction (ASL 1.1) was
> that we could not even code against their packages. Under ASL 2.0, we
> merely can't repackage their
> JARs?
>
> --
> Howard M. Lewis Ship
> Independent J2EE / Open-Source Java Consultant
> Creator, Tapestry: Java Web Components
> Creator, HiveMind
> http://howardlewisship.com
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: David Sean Taylor [mailto:david@bluesunrise.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 1:27 PM
>> To: general@jakarta.apache.org
>> Subject: Hibernate in Apache projects
>>
>>
>> The Jetspeed team would like to use the Hibernate open source project
>> in our project.
>>
>> http://www.hibernate.org/
>>
>> I've been reading through the licensing and Im not entirely
>> sure if its
>> compatible with the Apache license.
>> I think I've seen where Turbine now works with Hibernate.
>> Could some one clearly tell us: can we use Hibernate in
>> Apache projects?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> --
>> David Sean Taylor
>> taylor@apache.org
>> Apache Portals http://portals.apache.org
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
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>
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RE: Hibernate in Apache projects
Posted by "Howard M. Lewis Ship" <hl...@comcast.net>.
This is a good subject w.r.t. Tapestry and HiveMind as well. The previous restriction (ASL 1.1) was
that we could not even code against their packages. Under ASL 2.0, we merely can't repackage their
JARs?
--
Howard M. Lewis Ship
Independent J2EE / Open-Source Java Consultant
Creator, Tapestry: Java Web Components
Creator, HiveMind
http://howardlewisship.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Sean Taylor [mailto:david@bluesunrise.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 1:27 PM
> To: general@jakarta.apache.org
> Subject: Hibernate in Apache projects
>
>
> The Jetspeed team would like to use the Hibernate open source project
> in our project.
>
> http://www.hibernate.org/
>
> I've been reading through the licensing and Im not entirely
> sure if its
> compatible with the Apache license.
> I think I've seen where Turbine now works with Hibernate.
> Could some one clearly tell us: can we use Hibernate in
> Apache projects?
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> David Sean Taylor
> taylor@apache.org
> Apache Portals http://portals.apache.org
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
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>
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