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Posted to users@cocoon.apache.org by Derek Hohls <DH...@csir.co.za> on 2004/06/23 13:18:39 UTC
Lets Not Go Big Game Hunting!
No, this isn't a spam email.
I just digested (er, read) Bruce Tate's brilliant article on
"Don't make me eat the elephant again" where he looks
at his past, current (and future?) love-hate relationship
with the various EJB versions.
Read it at:
http://today.java.net/pub/a/today/2004/06/15/ejb3.html
and draw your own conclusions (and comparisons) with
developments in Cocoon - for exampe, here's one quote:
"But while I was slogging through six files to do simple
persistence, my friends were laughing and dancing around
their POJO applications with ordinary JDBC. And they were
doing much more, with much less. "
I haven't had to tackle even a fraction of the technology
that Bruce has had to deal with, but he sums up much
of what I have been feeling in recent times about Cocoon;
especially the whole issue about integrating persistence
frameworks for database access, and all the layers that
are now required - from forms to hibernate config files
and more (if you toss in Spring as well).
Expand capabilities? Yes. Add power features? Sure.
But lets keep it simple and usable!!
My 2c soapbox for the day...
--
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Re: Lets Not Go Big Game Hunting!
Posted by Sandor Spruit <sa...@cs.uu.nl>.
Joerg Heinicke wrote:
> On 23.06.2004 17:03, sandor@cs.uu.nl wrote:
>
>> A very large part of "learning Cocoon is like eating an
>> elephant" (love the metaphore!) is due to documentation.
>> Not long big documents, not books, but little pieces :)
>> A paragraph per block, tops.
>>
>> Most, if not all, stuff outside the Cocoon core relates
>> to web applications and the sitemap. What I miss is some
>> overview. What functionality does each block offer? Why
>> and when do I need it? How does it relate to the sitemap?
>
>
> There is at least this list:
> http://wiki.cocoondev.org/Wiki.jsp?page=BlockDescriptions
OK, that's a nice start. Thanks.
Sandor
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Re: Lets Not Go Big Game Hunting!
Posted by Joerg Heinicke <jo...@gmx.de>.
On 23.06.2004 17:03, sandor@cs.uu.nl wrote:
> A very large part of "learning Cocoon is like eating an
> elephant" (love the metaphore!) is due to documentation.
> Not long big documents, not books, but little pieces :)
> A paragraph per block, tops.
>
> Most, if not all, stuff outside the Cocoon core relates
> to web applications and the sitemap. What I miss is some
> overview. What functionality does each block offer? Why
> and when do I need it? How does it relate to the sitemap?
There is at least this list:
http://wiki.cocoondev.org/Wiki.jsp?page=BlockDescriptions
Joerg
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Re: Lets Not Go Big Game Hunting!
Posted by Sandor Spruit <sa...@cs.uu.nl>.
Bertrand,
Ah merci pour votre response! Oh, pardonne-moi, my French _is_ rusty
after several years of inactivity :(
Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> Le 23 juin 04, à 17:03, sandor@cs.uu.nl a écrit :
>
>> ...You're right. My feeling is slightly different though.
>> Context: I'm trying to tame Cocoon to make it useful for
>> some lab exercises for our students...
>
> FYI I've been using Cocoon successfully for teaching XML-based
> publishing: make a simple zip-file based install where people just need
> to install a JVM, a script which makes sure the right JVM is used to
> start Cocoon and you're set.
Installation etc is not really an issue in my setting, since I've set-up
a whole environment where I can experiment almost at will. See, for
example: http://www.cs.uu.nl/beleidslab
> I've shown them just the bare minimum sitemap concepts, taught them XSLT
> essentials (using JEdit at first before moving to Cocoon, and *not*
> showing them for-each and xsl:choose to avoid slipping to procedural)
> and given minimal XSL-FO knowledge my students have been happily
> building simple multichannel web sites.
OK. I see your point - especially the programming part :) I'm convinced
not many people realize there's three different paradigms tied together
in Cocoon (functional, procedural, declarative). The problem is that I
have to get into the web application arena ...
> You're right that web applications quickly get more complicated, but
> have you looked at the "tour" block? I've used this tutorial
> successfully in half-day workshops to show the big picture of Cocoon to
> java programmers and they've been happy: I think it shows which
> functionality and blocks are more important and which ones one can just
> leave for later, just keeping in mind that they exist.
Again, point taken. My _real_ issue is that we have a 2-year master's
programme at our university specifically aimed at content and knowledge
engineering (CKE). Our students typically have a broad interest in
technological, human factors and social/management issues. They are not
expert Java jockeys, but keen on learning the required skills whenever
they're sufficiently motivated and see their relevance.
Ergo, I need a way to just flatten the learning curve a bit. I want to
be one step ahead of the crowd. I am basically educated much like our
students. Broad interest but with some years of experience in different
areas. I _am_ an experienced Java developer, to begin with :) I want to
prepare some documentation, a lab set-up, slides, custom built Actions,
database configurations etc. Lure folks into more complicated projects.
I also need some convincing applications. Not just interesting from the
technical perspective - like many Cocoon demos - but from a real-world
angle. Bridge the gap between techies and the rest. Think modelling your
business proces in XML. Simulate a small multichannel publishing firm.
Demonstrate how Cocoon delivers special offers from your local store as
a brochure to your mailbox (pdf), the web (html) and your cellphone.
Use Cocoon to personalize course materials.
> Just my two cents - with about 50 blocks in Cocoon today, I think the
> learning process needs to be focused on what people need at their level
> of knowledge, and a big part of the teacher's job is to keep them from
> losing themselves in this big playground.
Exactly. Which is why the teacher gets impatient when he looses himself
in the proces ;)
Cheers,
Sandor
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
NEW! international master programme 'Content and Knowledge Engineering'
see: http://www.informationscience.nl/
My personal coordinates: http://www.cs.uu.nl/people/sandor/
"Our minds are harnessed by knowledge, by the hill and the will
to succeed". From: Fish, "Vigil in a wilderness of mirrors"
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Re: Lets Not Go Big Game Hunting!
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Le 23 juin 04, à 17:03, sandor@cs.uu.nl a écrit :
> ...You're right. My feeling is slightly different though.
> Context: I'm trying to tame Cocoon to make it useful for
> some lab exercises for our students...
FYI I've been using Cocoon successfully for teaching XML-based
publishing: make a simple zip-file based install where people just need
to install a JVM, a script which makes sure the right JVM is used to
start Cocoon and you're set.
I've shown them just the bare minimum sitemap concepts, taught them
XSLT essentials (using JEdit at first before moving to Cocoon, and
*not* showing them for-each and xsl:choose to avoid slipping to
procedural) and given minimal XSL-FO knowledge my students have been
happily building simple multichannel web sites.
You're right that web applications quickly get more complicated, but
have you looked at the "tour" block? I've used this tutorial
successfully in half-day workshops to show the big picture of Cocoon to
java programmers and they've been happy: I think it shows which
functionality and blocks are more important and which ones one can just
leave for later, just keeping in mind that they exist.
Just my two cents - with about 50 blocks in Cocoon today, I think the
learning process needs to be focused on what people need at their level
of knowledge, and a big part of the teacher's job is to keep them from
losing themselves in this big playground.
-Bertrand
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Re: Lets Not Go Big Game Hunting!
Posted by sa...@cs.uu.nl.
[stuff snipped]
> Expand capabilities? Yes. Add power features? Sure.
> But lets keep it simple and usable!!
>
> My 2c soapbox for the day...
You're right. My feeling is slightly different though.
Context: I'm trying to tame Cocoon to make it useful for
some lab exercises for our students.
I'm quite convinced Cocoon does not need to be so very
complicated, because its design is basically ok. I can
get basic Cocoon up and running in no time. Some XML,
stylesheets, databases etc. But once you try and move
into web applications, the learning curve gets steep.
Part of this has nothing to do with Cocoon. Writing a
web application that fulfills the promises of XML _is_
quite difficult. Period. Lots of standards, technology,
design issues, lots of data, various delivery contexts.
A very large part of "learning Cocoon is like eating an
elephant" (love the metaphore!) is due to documentation.
Not long big documents, not books, but little pieces :)
A paragraph per block, tops.
Most, if not all, stuff outside the Cocoon core relates
to web applications and the sitemap. What I miss is some
overview. What functionality does each block offer? Why
and when do I need it? How does it relate to the sitemap?
Without this information, I get a sort of "all or nothing"
feeling. I cannot quickly select relevant parts of Cocoon
for my apps. I don't know what parts I can skip. I have to
spend days taking little bites off the elephant, putting
it all in perspective one bit at the time. Where I have a
funny feeling I don't need _all_ of it, just some of it.
And at the same time, there's so much work gone into Cocoon
that it has a lot to offer. So you don't wanna go out and
write new code yourself.
Sorry, I'm trying to get rid of some frustration here :)
I _do_ appreciate the whole Cocoon effort. A lot actually.
Cheers,
Sandor
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Re: Lets Not Go Big Game Hunting!
Posted by Ugo Cei <u....@cbim.it>.
Derek Hohls wrote:
> I haven't had to tackle even a fraction of the technology
> that Bruce has had to deal with, but he sums up much
> of what I have been feeling in recent times about Cocoon;
> especially the whole issue about integrating persistence
> frameworks for database access, and all the layers that
> are now required - from forms to hibernate config files
> and more (if you toss in Spring as well).
I can understand your feelings, but consider that Bruce's article is
also meant to publicize his latest book [1], where he advocates the
usage of ... guess what? Hibernate and Spring ;-).
Ugo
[1] http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/bfljava/
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Re: Lets Not Go Big Game Hunting!
Posted by Ivo Limmen <iv...@virgil.nl>.
Derek Hohls wrote:
>No, this isn't a spam email.
>
>I just digested (er, read) Bruce Tate's brilliant article on
>"Don't make me eat the elephant again" where he looks
>at his past, current (and future?) love-hate relationship
>with the various EJB versions.
>
>Read it at:
>http://today.java.net/pub/a/today/2004/06/15/ejb3.html
>and draw your own conclusions (and comparisons) with
>developments in Cocoon - for exampe, here's one quote:
>
>"But while I was slogging through six files to do simple
>persistence, my friends were laughing and dancing around
>their POJO applications with ordinary JDBC. And they were
>doing much more, with much less. "
>
>I haven't had to tackle even a fraction of the technology
>that Bruce has had to deal with, but he sums up much
>of what I have been feeling in recent times about Cocoon;
>especially the whole issue about integrating persistence
>frameworks for database access, and all the layers that
>are now required - from forms to hibernate config files
>and more (if you toss in Spring as well).
>
>Expand capabilities? Yes. Add power features? Sure.
>But lets keep it simple and usable!!
>
>
>
I have know idea of your knowledge on Cocoon but it does have the
ability to disable and enable features when you build your own version.
I myself do not have that much experience in Cocoon and found myself
stuck with a web application that is about 25 MB large and can only
generate simple PDF and Excel files, and that was after I completly
stripped all features.
I personally agree that Cocoon is a bloated. I simply want to make some
generators, transformers and selectors and some xslt. I wind up with 25
MB...
A thing that bothers me as well is the configuration. I want to be able
to deploy a war at a customer and let him set the initialize parameters
in the web.xml and activate the web application, but this is not
possible with Cocoon. I have a workaround but it does not make my
application very pretty (and for a commerial application; it should be).
>My 2c soapbox for the day...
>
>
>
>
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