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Posted to dev@cocoon.apache.org by David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au> on 2001/12/30 05:08:25 UTC
Cocoon Logo
Whatever happened to the wonderful original Cocoon1 Logo?
It is excellent, as it depicts some wonderful metamorphosis
swirly bits happening inside. This indicates to me the pipelines
and matches that are happening inside Apache Cocoon
to produce the magical result that emerges.
http://xml.apache.org/cocoon1/images/cocoon.jpg
In my opinion, the current C2 logo is very ordinary and
even cartoon-like.
http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/images/cocoon2.gif
Is there any possibility to bring back the old logo?
I tried to search the email archives, but did not find any
previous discussion on changing to the new one.
--David Crossley
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Re: Cocoon Logo
Posted by Matteo Di Giovinazzo <ma...@infinito.it>.
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Crossley" <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>
To: <co...@xml.apache.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 5:08 AM
Subject: Cocoon Logo
> Whatever happened to the wonderful original Cocoon1 Logo?
> It is excellent, as it depicts some wonderful metamorphosis
> swirly bits happening inside. This indicates to me the pipelines
> and matches that are happening inside Apache Cocoon
> to produce the magical result that emerges.
> http://xml.apache.org/cocoon1/images/cocoon.jpg
>
> In my opinion, the current C2 logo is very ordinary and
> even cartoon-like.
> http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/images/cocoon2.gif
>
> Is there any possibility to bring back the old logo?
> I tried to search the email archives, but did not find any
> previous discussion on changing to the new one.
> --David Crossley
I couldn't agree with you more!!!
--
Matteo Di Giovinazzo
>
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Re: Cocoon Logo
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@codeconsult.ch>.
On Monday 31 December 2001 12:16, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> To me the new logo looks more like "artwork" than the old one which I see
> as "the word Cocoon written in a funny way".
To clarify (thanks Jeff): by "new logo" I mean the Cocoon 2 version.
It's the cocoon 1 version that I see as "the word Cocoon written in a funny
way", or more precisely, "the word cocoon with some funny decoration".
- Bertrand
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Re: Cocoon Logo
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> Stefano, what happened to the cool new Cocoon style-identity you talked us
> about months ago?
It was not months ago and it reshaped into a much wider effort codenamed
Forrest.
When Forrest is functional, Cocoon will benefit as well as all the rest
of the XML.apache efforts.
--
Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: Cocoon Logo
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ba...@nicolaken.com>.
I have no right to vote too, but I prefer the new logo.
It reminds me of the drawings Stefano makes when explaining the sitemap. ;-)
Another thing. I made the current Cocoon samples style, but it kinda sucks.
Stefano, what happened to the cool new Cocoon style-identity you talked us
about months ago?
I'd be very happy to change the current style and reorganize the examples,
just give me instructions and I'll start. This way I can also make it easier
for external projects to integrate with the Cocoon set of examples.
Now that I remember, didn't you say something about some work you did with
you girlfriend on this?
Ciao and Happy New Year to all! :-)
Ken
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi xml-cocoon@nicolaken.com
These are the days of miracle and wonder...
...so don't cry baby, don't cry...
Paul Simon
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bertrand Delacretaz" <bd...@codeconsult.ch>
To: <co...@xml.apache.org>
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: Cocoon Logo
> I don't have the right to vote here, but I find the new logo much more
> "distinctive" and "modern".
>
> IMHO comparing both logos out-of-context like from these URLs
>
> > On Sunday 30 December 2001 17:50, giacomo wrote:
> > . . .
> > 1. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon1/images/cocoon.jpg
> > 2. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/images/cocoon.gif
> > . . .
>
> Doesn't do justice to the new logo which I think integrates better in a
page,
> and draws attention by being harder to read.
>
> To me the new logo looks more like "artwork" than the old one which I see
as
> "the word Cocoon written in a funny way".
>
> My 2 cents...
> --
> -- Bertrand Delacrétaz, www.codeconsult.ch
> -- web technologies consultant - OO, Java, XML, C++
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Re: Cocoon Logo
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@codeconsult.ch>.
I don't have the right to vote here, but I find the new logo much more
"distinctive" and "modern".
IMHO comparing both logos out-of-context like from these URLs
> On Sunday 30 December 2001 17:50, giacomo wrote:
> . . .
> 1. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon1/images/cocoon.jpg
> 2. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/images/cocoon.gif
> . . .
Doesn't do justice to the new logo which I think integrates better in a page,
and draws attention by being harder to read.
To me the new logo looks more like "artwork" than the old one which I see as
"the word Cocoon written in a funny way".
My 2 cents...
--
-- Bertrand Delacrétaz, www.codeconsult.ch
-- web technologies consultant - OO, Java, XML, C++
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Re: Cocoon Logo
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Gianugo Rabellino wrote:
>
> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
> > This said, I think the Cocoon1 logo reflects the status of the Cocoon1
> > codebase: people still use it and like it because Cocoon2 is not yet up
> > to dethrone it, but it's doomed for future uses so we must have change
> > it now that we can.
> >
> > So, of course, my vote goes for the new logo.
>
> "Fix the cigarette lighter" :)
>
> +1 from me.
ROTFL!!! :)
Really, I needed such a great laugh :)
--
Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: Cocoon Logo
Posted by Gianugo Rabellino <gi...@rabellino.it>.
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> This said, I think the Cocoon1 logo reflects the status of the Cocoon1
> codebase: people still use it and like it because Cocoon2 is not yet up
> to dethrone it, but it's doomed for future uses so we must have change
> it now that we can.
>
> So, of course, my vote goes for the new logo.
"Fix the cigarette lighter" :)
+1 from me.
Ciao,
--
Gianugo
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Re: Cocoon Logo
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
David Crossley wrote:
>
> Many thanks Stefano for taking the time to explain the
> rationale behind a new logo.
You're welcome.
> You have presented very
> sound technical, usability, and design reasons.
Really? thanks :) I thought I was just sick of answering "that the heck
is that" for the first logo :)
> I am now swayed towards the new logo.
Good.
> The gist of my original email was to be sure that the Cocoon
> logo portrays the wonderful product that it is.
Don't forget SoC! Is portraying the beauty of a product a logo's
concern?
I wouldn't think so. A "logo", by definition, is a visual identifier.
A couple of inches below this very line I have "SONY" written on my VAIO
laptop screen. It this stating anything about the "quality" of my
hardware system?
> It needs to hint at the metamorphic processes inside.
Oh, yeah, that's what the word "cocoon" is for :)
Seriously: there are logos which are incredibly cool-looking and
wonderfully effective. My favorites are the former SGI logo, the new
Apple logo and the Nike logo. Another absolutely great logo is the Euro
sign.
And none of them give the slightest indication of what they were for
"until" you associated them with the product and *then* it turns into a
strong identifier.
> For me, the new logo
> does not yet do that. It is the "00 eyes" that ruin it for me,
> giving it a cartoon appearance and adding no benefit.
As I explained in my previous message, it was intentional to give some
strident look to the thing.
> How about retaining the dots inside each "O" - i think that they
> do indicate that there is activity inside the cocoons. However,
> they should be all right-handed (i.e. get rid of the eyes).
> Then we could have another animated logo where those dots
> (i.e. the chrysalids) started some shape-changing (perhaps as
> an advanced SVG demo).
I'm open to question the logo, as long as the
> It sounds like a silly conversation now.
No, it's not. I think that part of what made Apache what it is was the
logo: in a land of brand-less software, Apache had a *clear* graphical
identity.... but again, no indication of what it was for.
Same thing for Linux's Tux. Or the BSD devil. (even if I personally
don't like those logos, too visually complex: an identifier should make
you think, it should be the most obvious thing in the world).
> However, i think that it was good to work throught our reasons for the choice.
Yes.
> In English, the word "Cocoon" means a protective envelope
> spun by various insects to serve as a covering while they
> are in the chrysalis state. I think that the new logo needs to
> capitalise on the imagery of that magical process.
This is my personal SoC of the visibility issue:
1) a logo -> gives identity
2) a mascotte -> gives characther
3) a tagline -> gives context
4) a motto -> gives direction
I still don't have a final opinion if a complete separation of these is
a good thing or not, but I'm sure that it's far better to separate
concerns rather than making poorer choices because of concerns are
forced to overlap.
In our case, the concept of 'metamorphosis'(transformation + evolution +
protection + incubation + reshaping) is a *very* powerful one indeed and
it would be a shame to waste, but I don't think a logo is necessarely
the place for this. From the list above, the 'tagline' or 'motto' seem
to be better places to show this concept off.
Of course, I'd be very happy to be presented with a logo that is simple,
usable on all media and all cases, distinguished, peculiar and yet able
to describe the 'metamorphosis' concept.
But I personally have the impression that it would end up going in the
linux direction (the Tux pinguin, too weak as a mascotte and too complex
as a logo) so maybe keeping concerns separated is easier and more
efficient, expecially for communities like ours where lack of visual
artistic skills are notorious :)
--
Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: Cocoon Logo
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>.
Many thanks Stefano for taking the time to explain the
rationale behind a new logo. You have presented very
sound technical, usability, and design reasons. I am now
swayed towards the new logo.
The gist of my original email was to be sure that the Cocoon
logo portrays the wonderful product that it is. It needs to hint
at the metamorphic processes inside. For me, the new logo
does not yet do that. It is the "00 eyes" that ruin it for me,
giving it a cartoon appearance and adding no benefit.
How about retaining the dots inside each "O" - i think that they
do indicate that there is activity inside the cocoons. However,
they should be all right-handed (i.e. get rid of the eyes).
Then we could have another animated logo where those dots
(i.e. the chrysalids) started some shape-changing (perhaps as
an advanced SVG demo).
It sounds like a silly conversation now. However, i think
that it was good to work throught our reasons for the choice.
In English, the word "Cocoon" means a protective envelope
spun by various insects to serve as a covering while they
are in the chrysalis state. I think that the new logo needs to
capitalise on the imagery of that magical process.
All the best to everyone for 2002+
--David
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> giacomo wrote:
> > David Crossley wrote:
> > > Whatever happened to the wonderful original Cocoon1 Logo?
> > > It is excellent, as it depicts some wonderful metamorphosis
> > > swirly bits happening inside. This indicates to me the pipelines
> > > and matches that are happening inside Apache Cocoon
> > > to produce the magical result that emerges.
> > > http://xml.apache.org/cocoon1/images/cocoon.jpg
> > >
> > > In my opinion, the current C2 logo is very ordinary and
> > > even cartoon-like.
> > > http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/images/cocoon2.gif
> > >
> > > Is there any possibility to bring back the old logo?
> > > I tried to search the email archives, but did not find any
> > > previous discussion on changing to the new one.
> >
> > I don't remember why there has been introduced a new cocoon logo for
> > version 2. Well, the site tells us that it has to do with "evidence the
> > new course"
> >
> > Maybe Stefano can give us more background information why the old
> > one wasn't good enough and maybe can vote here about it.
> >
> > 1. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon1/images/cocoon.jpg
> >
> > 2. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/images/cocoon.gif
> >
> > Personally I like the 1. best.
>
> There never was a formal votation on this so I think it's right to do it
> now.
>
> I designed and implemented both logos, so I don't have ego problems.
>
> The Cocoon1 logo works well on screens but sucks on any other media,
> mostly low-res displays (pda, cell phones), on laser printers (it uses
> too many shades of colors), on printed books, on tshirts, on mugs, on
> stickers, etc.
>
> Besides, it didn't give us a clear identity nor gave us reusable
> artistic elements.
>
> Moreover, the filter effect used is not part of the standard SVG suite
> so the logo cannot be vectorized in SVG.
>
> These were enough reasons, in my vision, to work on an entirely new
> logo.
>
> - o -
>
> The second logo was designed using SVG, so it is *very* unfair to
> compare the above two logos. Also because the first logo was designed
> for a light background (at the java.apache.org days), while the second
> with a dark background (to match the blue-shades of xml.apache.org
> topbar)
>
> Please, see http://www.apache.org/~stefano/forrest/1.3/page.gif for a
> better example of use. Or directly download the SVG source from CVS
> (xml-cocoon2/resources/orig/cocoon2.svg)
>
> Moreover, it was designed with the intention to give a clear readable
> indication logo.
>
> Think of a blue baseball cap, or a polo t-shirt, which logo would be
> most recognizable in an apachecon or comdex crowd?
>
> Think of "Nasa" caps or FBI yellow-on-blue T-Shirts: simple logos are
> those who stay. If we can also add graphical signs to text, it's even
> better (think of IBM, Microsoft, Sun, Oracle, all of them have one logo
> with text + a recognized shape or graphical element)
>
> Even more, the Cocoon1 logo looked more like a 'calzascarpe' (italian
> word for a tool that helps wearing tight shoes!!) than a cocoon. I was
> sick and tired of having people asking me "what the heck is supposed to
> be?". (non-english people normally ignore the fact that "cocoon" is an
> actual word and not only a movie title, yes, almost 99% of them, even if
> fluent english speakers.)
>
> But it's not over: the two 'o's with the little dots inside look like
> two eyes. This gives us a "very appealing" graphical sign for a
> character, a mascotte or something equivalent and the "n" with one side
> sharp and the other rounded, gives us another graphical element that we
> can easily reuse around the site. (something that neither IBM nor Sun
> nor Microsoft can do, unless IBM wants all fonts to be dotted :)
>
> Besides, it's extremely simple yet it has a very specific look that
> stands out (unlike the first logo which stood out only because colorful)
>
> This said, I think the Cocoon1 logo reflects the status of the Cocoon1
> codebase: people still use it and like it because Cocoon2 is not yet up
> to dethrone it, but it's doomed for future uses so we must have change
> it now that we can.
>
> So, of course, my vote goes for the new logo.
>
> --
> Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
> able to give birth to a dancing star.
> <st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Cocoon Logo
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Torsten Curdt wrote:
> > I designed and implemented both logos, so I don't have ego problems.
>
> Would you have one when calling an logo contest?
No, absolutely not. I did once, around Cocoon 1.2 or something, so I
helped myself and made one.
Then again, people were complaining but not helping and I made another
logo.
The issue wasn't raised before and I was happy enough with the logo not
to raise it myself, but no, I don't have ego problems if we get another
logo that is not designed by me.
> As you are brilliant
> in your visions and your programming there are brilliant designers out
> there.
Absolutely. The question is if they read this mail list :)
> Maybe we should not leave out this option.
I didn't. When I was still collaborating with Bibop Res., I spent a few
hours talking with their graphic designers (very nice designers indeed!
some of the best digital artists I had the chance to meet) and they
wanted to redo everything... but the logo, they said it was good as it
was. Even my girlfriend, who is the pickiest person in the world for
visual stuff, didn't complain (and she wasn't being nice, believe me,
you should hear what she says about my Forrest snapshots! :)
> So I'm +1 for the 2nd logo and +3 for a SVG logo contest. (Maybe
> we could get a link on the batik site?)
+1 for the logo contest and +1 for asking the Batik folks for the link
to the contest.
What do others think?
--
Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: Cocoon Logo
Posted by Torsten Curdt <tc...@dff.st>.
> > Maybe Stefano can give us more background information why the old
> > one wasn't good enough and maybe can vote here about it.
> >
> > 1. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon1/images/cocoon.jpg
> >
> > 2. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/images/cocoon.gif
> >
> > Personally I like the 1. best.
>
> There never was a formal votation on this so I think it's right to do it
> now.
>
> I designed and implemented both logos, so I don't have ego problems.
Would you have one when calling an logo contest? As you are brilliant
in your visions and your programming there are brilliant designers out
there. Maybe we should not leave out this option.
So I'm +1 for the 2nd logo and +3 for a SVG logo contest. (Maybe
we could get a link on the batik site?)
--
Torsten
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Re: Cocoon Logo
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
giacomo wrote:
>
> On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, David Crossley wrote:
>
> > Whatever happened to the wonderful original Cocoon1 Logo?
> > It is excellent, as it depicts some wonderful metamorphosis
> > swirly bits happening inside. This indicates to me the pipelines
> > and matches that are happening inside Apache Cocoon
> > to produce the magical result that emerges.
> > http://xml.apache.org/cocoon1/images/cocoon.jpg
> >
> > In my opinion, the current C2 logo is very ordinary and
> > even cartoon-like.
> > http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/images/cocoon2.gif
> >
> > Is there any possibility to bring back the old logo?
> > I tried to search the email archives, but did not find any
> > previous discussion on changing to the new one.
>
> I don't remember why there has been introduced a new cocoon logo for
> version 2. Well, the site tells us that it has to do with "evidence the
> new course"
>
> Maybe Stefano can give us more background information why the old
> one wasn't good enough and maybe can vote here about it.
>
> 1. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon1/images/cocoon.jpg
>
> 2. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/images/cocoon.gif
>
> Personally I like the 1. best.
There never was a formal votation on this so I think it's right to do it
now.
I designed and implemented both logos, so I don't have ego problems.
The Cocoon1 logo works well on screens but sucks on any other media,
mostly low-res displays (pda, cell phones), on laser printers (it uses
too many shades of colors), on printed books, on tshirts, on mugs, on
stickers, etc.
Besides, it didn't give us a clear identity nor gave us reusable
artistic elements.
Moreover, the filter effect used is not part of the standard SVG suite
so the logo cannot be vectorized in SVG.
These were enough reasons, in my vision, to work on an entirely new
logo.
- o -
The second logo was designed using SVG, so it is *very* unfair to
compare the above two logos. Also because the first logo was designed
for a light background (at the java.apache.org days), while the second
with a dark background (to match the blue-shades of xml.apache.org
topbar)
Please, see http://www.apache.org/~stefano/forrest/1.3/page.gif for a
better example of use. Or directly download the SVG source from CVS
(xml-cocoon2/resources/orig/cocoon2.svg)
Moreover, it was designed with the intention to give a clear readable
indication logo.
Think of a blue baseball cap, or a polo t-shirt, which logo would be
most recognizable in an apachecon or comdex crowd?
Think of "Nasa" caps or FBI yellow-on-blue T-Shirts: simple logos are
those who stay. If we can also add graphical signs to text, it's even
better (think of IBM, Microsoft, Sun, Oracle, all of them have one logo
with text + a recognized shape or graphical element)
Even more, the Cocoon1 logo looked more like a 'calzascarpe' (italian
word for a tool that helps wearing tight shoes!!) than a cocoon. I was
sick and tired of having people asking me "what the heck is supposed to
be?". (non-english people normally ignore the fact that "cocoon" is an
actual word and not only a movie title, yes, almost 99% of them, even if
fluent english speakers.)
But it's not over: the two 'o's with the little dots inside look like
two eyes. This gives us a "very appealing" graphical sign for a
character, a mascotte or something equivalent and the "n" with one side
sharp and the other rounded, gives us another graphical element that we
can easily reuse around the site. (something that neither IBM nor Sun
nor Microsoft can do, unless IBM wants all fonts to be dotted :)
Besides, it's extremely simple yet it has a very specific look that
stands out (unlike the first logo which stood out only because colorful)
This said, I think the Cocoon1 logo reflects the status of the Cocoon1
codebase: people still use it and like it because Cocoon2 is not yet up
to dethrone it, but it's doomed for future uses so we must have change
it now that we can.
So, of course, my vote goes for the new logo.
--
Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: Cocoon Logo
Posted by giacomo <gi...@apache.org>.
On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, David Crossley wrote:
> Whatever happened to the wonderful original Cocoon1 Logo?
> It is excellent, as it depicts some wonderful metamorphosis
> swirly bits happening inside. This indicates to me the pipelines
> and matches that are happening inside Apache Cocoon
> to produce the magical result that emerges.
> http://xml.apache.org/cocoon1/images/cocoon.jpg
>
> In my opinion, the current C2 logo is very ordinary and
> even cartoon-like.
> http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/images/cocoon2.gif
>
> Is there any possibility to bring back the old logo?
> I tried to search the email archives, but did not find any
> previous discussion on changing to the new one.
I don't remember why there has been introduced a new cocoon logo for
version 2. Well, the site tells us that it has to do with "evidence the
new course"
Maybe Stefano can give us more background information why the old
one wasn't good enough and maybe can vote here about it.
1. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon1/images/cocoon.jpg
2. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/images/cocoon.gif
Personally I like the 1. best.
Giacomo
> --David Crossley
>
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>
>
>
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