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Posted to users@httpd.apache.org by Joel Mandapat <jo...@chikka.com> on 2006/11/13 10:13:29 UTC
[users@httpd] apache 2 webserver tuning
hi all,
please help in tuning my apache webserver.
My hardware specs are
AMD Opteron(tm) Processor 248
cpu MHz : 2205.873
cache size : 1024 KB
2GB of RAM
10x100x1000 MB ethernet card (gigabit port capable)
i have an apache 2.0.52 installed with php module.
i need to load dynamic php pages.
the goal is to maximize the server specs that i have.
is it possible to accomodate 10,000 users all at the same time with this kind of hardware specs?
can you give me advice in what parameters to tweak in the the httpd.conf file.
thanks.
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Re: [users@httpd] apache 2 webserver tuning
Posted by Joel Mandapat <jo...@chikka.com>.
thanks!
Domingos Parra Novo wrote:
> Hiyas,
>
> Joel Mandapat escreveu:
> <snip>
>> The projection for number of users that the php application is around
>> 10K simultaneous users.
>
> It is still not clear (at least to me) if you're expecting 10k
> (dynamic) requests per second, or just need to serve 10k users stored
> on a database or directory.
>
> The first one is a nightmare scenario, and you would find other
> problems along the way, besides your apache configuration (DB issues,
> network and disk IO issues, and some others).
>
> The second one (and I believe it is your case, btw), its just
> matter of how heavy is your PHP script, and the concurrency it will be
> called.
>
>> i hope you can give me a sample of your httpd.conf so i can compare
>> it with my configurations.
>
> I would be glad to, but it wouldn't be of much use to you
> (remember, I serve only static content, that is, images and the such),
> and you want a server with dynamic content (PHP, which I don't even
> use in large scale).
>
>> can you give me factors that can improve my php dynamic website?
>> kindly give advice to speed up dynamic php pages using apache as a
>> webserver.
>
> There is no single "advice" to speed up your PHP applications. In
> case you're using a database (MySQL for example), try to run it on a
> diferent server. Zend studio/optimizer/encoder might be of some too
> (it is a commercial product, fyi). More memory, processors and a
> stronger IO might help in your case too.
>
> But those are just wild guesses, as only you know the exact size
> and kind of requests you'll serve.
>
> Regards,
>
> Domingos.
>
--
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Re: [users@httpd] apache 2 webserver tuning
Posted by Domingos Parra Novo <do...@terra.com.br>.
Hiyas,
Joel Mandapat escreveu:
<snip>
> The projection for number of users that the php application is around
> 10K simultaneous users.
It is still not clear (at least to me) if you're expecting 10k
(dynamic) requests per second, or just need to serve 10k users stored on
a database or directory.
The first one is a nightmare scenario, and you would find other
problems along the way, besides your apache configuration (DB issues,
network and disk IO issues, and some others).
The second one (and I believe it is your case, btw), its just matter of
how heavy is your PHP script, and the concurrency it will be called.
> i hope you can give me a sample of your httpd.conf so i can compare it
> with my configurations.
I would be glad to, but it wouldn't be of much use to you (remember, I
serve only static content, that is, images and the such), and you want a
server with dynamic content (PHP, which I don't even use in large scale).
> can you give me factors that can improve my php dynamic website? kindly
> give advice to speed up dynamic php pages using apache as a webserver.
There is no single "advice" to speed up your PHP applications. In case
you're using a database (MySQL for example), try to run it on a diferent
server. Zend studio/optimizer/encoder might be of some too (it is a
commercial product, fyi). More memory, processors and a stronger IO
might help in your case too.
But those are just wild guesses, as only you know the exact size and
kind of requests you'll serve.
Regards,
Domingos.
--
Domingos Parra Novo
Coordenador de Projetos
Terra Networks Brasil S/A
Tel: +55(51)3284-4275
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Re: [users@httpd] apache 2 webserver tuning
Posted by Joel Mandapat <jo...@chikka.com>.
Hi sir,
thanks for your reply.
The projection for number of users that the php application is around
10K simultaneous users.
i hope you can give me a sample of your httpd.conf so i can compare it
with my configurations.
can you give me factors that can improve my php dynamic website? kindly
give advice to speed up
dynamic php pages using apache as a webserver.
thanks.
Domingos Parra Novo wrote:
> Hiyas,
>
> Joshua Slive wrote:
>> On 11/13/06, Joel Mandapat <jo...@chikka.com> wrote:
> <snip>
>>> i have an apache 2.0.52 installed with php module.
>>> i need to load dynamic php pages.
>>> the goal is to maximize the server specs that i have.
>>> is it possible to accomodate 10,000 users all at the same time with
>>> this kind of hardware specs?
>>
>> Highly unlikely. I've never tried a setup like that, but do you
>> really think one processor is capable of running 10000 simultaneous
>> memory- and processor-hungry php pages? I doubt it. A
>> very-well-tuned server with tons of memory could probably do 10,000
>> simultaneous static pages, but php is a whole different story.
>
> It also depends on what you call "10,000 users".
>
> Like Joshua said, if you're talking about 10k simultaneous users,
> thats basically impossible to serve with only one server.
>
> Some of our fastest apache machines (serving only static content)
> are usually able to deliver around 6,500 hits/sec at most. And we're
> talking about quad Xeon machines, with 8 Gb of ram.
>
> In counterpart, each of those machines serve at least a hundred
> million (static) requests per day, and usually much more then 5
> million distinct users per day.
>
> As you can see, it all depends on your exact needs.
>
> Regards,
>
> Domingos.
>
--
Joel M. Mandapat
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Re: [users@httpd] apache 2 webserver tuning
Posted by Xuekun Hu <xu...@gmail.com>.
Forgot to mention, for PHP setup.
On 11/14/06, Xuekun Hu <xu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> How about 2000 simultaneous users? I plan to use DP Xeon platform with
> 8G ram and use Apache2.2.3 prefork.
>
> Thx, Xuekun
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Re: [users@httpd] apache 2 webserver tuning
Posted by Domingos Parra Novo <do...@terra.com.br>.
Hiyas,
Xuekun Hu escreveu:
>> I've sent a message a few minutes ago, ranting about the mean
>> of "XXXX simultaneous users".
>
> Here 2000 simultaneous users means 2000 connections at the same time,
> not the 2000 requests/s. I estimate about 150 requests/s. Those are
> all PHP dynamic requests.
Hmm, 150 requests per second are a lot of requests, if they're all
handled dynamically. Can't really say if your machine is enough to
handle that much requests. In any case, I believe you're more close to
the "150 simultaneous requests being processed at the same time" (and
2000 idle connections, using keepalive).
I would look for some kind of caching and optimization engine (zend
platform, for example). You can also try to use mod_proxy or a (reverse)
squid server, to cache those requests, if possible.
Anyway, apache is surelly not the problem in your case (and we are
starting to get offtopic on this matter). :)
>> In resume, if you're going to serve dynamic content (be it a PHP
>> script, CGI, SSI or the such), it is basically impossible to guess if
>> your machine able to handle that much users.
>>
>> If you're only talking about static content, then, that might be
>> doable. Personally, I would choose a "worker" model. :)
>
> Here I have to use "prefork" model due to thread_safe issue of PHP. I
> am not sure if "worker" could be used stablely with PHP with
> Apache2.2.x?
I was not aware of the fact that you have some PHP applications.
You're right to choose prefork, in this case. PHP usually links to way
too many libraries, and there is no way to guarantee that all those
libraries are thread safe.
The "worker" model is well suited for static content. Also works ok if
you use CGIs to generate dynamic content (but not for FastCGIs).
> Thx, Xuekun
Regards,
Domingos.
--
Domingos Parra Novo
Coordenador de Projetos
Terra Networks Brasil S/A
Tel: +55(51)3284-4275
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Re: [users@httpd] apache 2 webserver tuning
Posted by Xuekun Hu <xu...@gmail.com>.
OK, to make it clearly, connection here is refering to TCP/IP
connection. Apache server will keep the socket alive and such consume
one thread/process. Sorry for my poor English, maybe I think
"simultaneous session" make more sence?
Thx, Xuekun
On 11/15/06, Sean Conner <sp...@conman.org> wrote:
> It was thus said that the Great Xuekun Hu once stated:
> > Thanks for replying.
> >
> > > I've sent a message a few minutes ago, ranting about the mean of
> > > "XXXX
> > >simultaneous users".
> >
> > Here 2000 simultaneous users means 2000 connections at the same time,
> > not the 2000 requests/s. I estimate about 150 requests/s. Those are
> > all PHP dynamic requests.
>
> What is your definition of a connection?
>
> I ask, because *my* definition of a "connection" is a TCP/IP connection,
> which is used to make an HTTP request.
>
> Technically, I'm still "logged on" to LiveJournal [1] even though it's
> been some eight hours or so since I last checked the site (and I've
> restarted my web browser since then). So I'm not in any way "connected" to
> LiveJournal, although I'm still "logged on" to LiveJournal.
>
> -spc (Somehow I think you're confusing "users" with "connections")
>
> [1] http://www.livejournal.com/
>
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Re: [users@httpd] apache 2 webserver tuning
Posted by Sean Conner <sp...@conman.org>.
It was thus said that the Great Xuekun Hu once stated:
> Thanks for replying.
>
> > I've sent a message a few minutes ago, ranting about the mean of
> > "XXXX
> >simultaneous users".
>
> Here 2000 simultaneous users means 2000 connections at the same time,
> not the 2000 requests/s. I estimate about 150 requests/s. Those are
> all PHP dynamic requests.
What is your definition of a connection?
I ask, because *my* definition of a "connection" is a TCP/IP connection,
which is used to make an HTTP request.
Technically, I'm still "logged on" to LiveJournal [1] even though it's
been some eight hours or so since I last checked the site (and I've
restarted my web browser since then). So I'm not in any way "connected" to
LiveJournal, although I'm still "logged on" to LiveJournal.
-spc (Somehow I think you're confusing "users" with "connections")
[1] http://www.livejournal.com/
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Re: [users@httpd] apache 2 webserver tuning
Posted by Xuekun Hu <xu...@gmail.com>.
Thanks for replying.
> I've sent a message a few minutes ago, ranting about the mean of "XXXX
> simultaneous users".
Here 2000 simultaneous users means 2000 connections at the same time,
not the 2000 requests/s. I estimate about 150 requests/s. Those are
all PHP dynamic requests.
>
> In resume, if you're going to serve dynamic content (be it a PHP
> script, CGI, SSI or the such), it is basically impossible to guess if
> your machine able to handle that much users.
>
> If you're only talking about static content, then, that might be
> doable. Personally, I would choose a "worker" model. :)
>
Here I have to use "prefork" model due to thread_safe issue of PHP. I
am not sure if "worker" could be used stablely with PHP with
Apache2.2.x?
Thx, Xuekun
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Re: [users@httpd] apache 2 webserver tuning
Posted by Domingos Parra Novo <do...@terra.com.br>.
Hiyas,
Xuekun Hu escreveu:
> How about 2000 simultaneous users? I plan to use DP Xeon platform with
> 8G ram and use Apache2.2.3 prefork.
I've sent a message a few minutes ago, ranting about the mean of "XXXX
simultaneous users".
In resume, if you're going to serve dynamic content (be it a PHP
script, CGI, SSI or the such), it is basically impossible to guess if
your machine able to handle that much users.
If you're only talking about static content, then, that might be
doable. Personally, I would choose a "worker" model. :)
> Thx, Xuekun
Regards,
Domingos.
> On 11/14/06, Domingos Parra Novo <do...@terra.com.br> wrote:
>> Hiyas,
>>
>> Joshua Slive wrote:
>> > On 11/13/06, Joel Mandapat <jo...@chikka.com> wrote:
>> <snip>
>> >> i have an apache 2.0.52 installed with php module.
>> >> i need to load dynamic php pages.
>> >> the goal is to maximize the server specs that i have.
>> >> is it possible to accomodate 10,000 users all at the same time with
>> >> this kind of hardware specs?
>> >
>> > Highly unlikely. I've never tried a setup like that, but do you
>> > really think one processor is capable of running 10000 simultaneous
>> > memory- and processor-hungry php pages? I doubt it. A
>> > very-well-tuned server with tons of memory could probably do 10,000
>> > simultaneous static pages, but php is a whole different story.
>>
>> It also depends on what you call "10,000 users".
>>
>> Like Joshua said, if you're talking about 10k simultaneous
>> users, thats
>> basically impossible to serve with only one server.
>>
>> Some of our fastest apache machines (serving only static
>> content) are
>> usually able to deliver around 6,500 hits/sec at most. And we're talking
>> about quad Xeon machines, with 8 Gb of ram.
>>
>> In counterpart, each of those machines serve at least a hundred
>> million
>> (static) requests per day, and usually much more then 5 million distinct
>> users per day.
>>
>> As you can see, it all depends on your exact needs.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Domingos.
>>
>> --
>> Domingos Parra Novo
>> Coordenador de Projetos
>> Terra Networks Brasil S/A
>> Tel: +55(51)3284-4275
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> The official User-To-User support forum of the Apache HTTP Server
>> Project.
>> See <URL:http://httpd.apache.org/userslist.html> for more info.
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>>
>>
>
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--
Domingos Parra Novo
Coordenador de Projetos
Terra Networks Brasil S/A
Tel: +55(51)3284-4275
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Re: [users@httpd] apache 2 webserver tuning
Posted by Xuekun Hu <xu...@gmail.com>.
How about 2000 simultaneous users? I plan to use DP Xeon platform with
8G ram and use Apache2.2.3 prefork.
Thx, Xuekun
On 11/14/06, Domingos Parra Novo <do...@terra.com.br> wrote:
> Hiyas,
>
> Joshua Slive wrote:
> > On 11/13/06, Joel Mandapat <jo...@chikka.com> wrote:
> <snip>
> >> i have an apache 2.0.52 installed with php module.
> >> i need to load dynamic php pages.
> >> the goal is to maximize the server specs that i have.
> >> is it possible to accomodate 10,000 users all at the same time with
> >> this kind of hardware specs?
> >
> > Highly unlikely. I've never tried a setup like that, but do you
> > really think one processor is capable of running 10000 simultaneous
> > memory- and processor-hungry php pages? I doubt it. A
> > very-well-tuned server with tons of memory could probably do 10,000
> > simultaneous static pages, but php is a whole different story.
>
> It also depends on what you call "10,000 users".
>
> Like Joshua said, if you're talking about 10k simultaneous users, thats
> basically impossible to serve with only one server.
>
> Some of our fastest apache machines (serving only static content) are
> usually able to deliver around 6,500 hits/sec at most. And we're talking
> about quad Xeon machines, with 8 Gb of ram.
>
> In counterpart, each of those machines serve at least a hundred million
> (static) requests per day, and usually much more then 5 million distinct
> users per day.
>
> As you can see, it all depends on your exact needs.
>
> Regards,
>
> Domingos.
>
> --
> Domingos Parra Novo
> Coordenador de Projetos
> Terra Networks Brasil S/A
> Tel: +55(51)3284-4275
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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Re: [users@httpd] apache 2 webserver tuning
Posted by Domingos Parra Novo <do...@terra.com.br>.
Hiyas,
Joshua Slive wrote:
> On 11/13/06, Joel Mandapat <jo...@chikka.com> wrote:
<snip>
>> i have an apache 2.0.52 installed with php module.
>> i need to load dynamic php pages.
>> the goal is to maximize the server specs that i have.
>> is it possible to accomodate 10,000 users all at the same time with
>> this kind of hardware specs?
>
> Highly unlikely. I've never tried a setup like that, but do you
> really think one processor is capable of running 10000 simultaneous
> memory- and processor-hungry php pages? I doubt it. A
> very-well-tuned server with tons of memory could probably do 10,000
> simultaneous static pages, but php is a whole different story.
It also depends on what you call "10,000 users".
Like Joshua said, if you're talking about 10k simultaneous users, thats
basically impossible to serve with only one server.
Some of our fastest apache machines (serving only static content) are
usually able to deliver around 6,500 hits/sec at most. And we're talking
about quad Xeon machines, with 8 Gb of ram.
In counterpart, each of those machines serve at least a hundred million
(static) requests per day, and usually much more then 5 million distinct
users per day.
As you can see, it all depends on your exact needs.
Regards,
Domingos.
--
Domingos Parra Novo
Coordenador de Projetos
Terra Networks Brasil S/A
Tel: +55(51)3284-4275
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Re: [users@httpd] apache 2 webserver tuning
Posted by Sean Conner <sp...@conman.org>.
It was thus said that the Great Joel Mandapat once stated:
> Hi Joshua,
> Thanks for ur reply.
>
> The projection of the number of users of the php application is around
> 10K users.
> I'm just wondering if tweaking of apache can help me achieve those
> numbers of users.
It's not users per se, but simultaneous number of connections. For
instance, 10,000 requests (for a single resource, a single GET) per day is
easily handled by just about any webserver (one request per 8 seonds).
10,000 requests per hour (a bit under 3 per second) sounds doable on a run
of the mill server.
By the time you get to 10,000 requests per minute (or 167 per second)
*now* you're in the realm of performance tuning and a careful analysis if
what you are trying to do. 10,000 requests *per second* is a whole other
ballgame (at this point, you've outstripped the capacity of two T-1s and I
doubt you'll even be able to use Apache at this point [1]). But note what I
said: 10,000 simultaneous connections (that is, 10,000 active TCP/IP
connections [2]).
Now, you may have 10k users, but if only a few hundred are making requests
*at any one time* then there's probably not much to worry about.
-spc (But, you might want to read up on what a few other sites have done
[3])
[1] Read http://www.kegel.com/c10k.html and if you don't understand it,
then you're probably in over your head.
[2] If you don't understand this, then you're probably in over your
head.
[3] Such as LiveJournal, Slashdot, kuro5hin, Google ...
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Re: [users@httpd] apache 2 webserver tuning
Posted by Joshua Slive <jo...@slive.ca>.
On 11/13/06, Joel Mandapat <jo...@chikka.com> wrote:
> Hi Joshua,
> Thanks for ur reply.
>
> The projection of the number of users of the php application is around
> 10K users.
> I'm just wondering if tweaking of apache can help me achieve those
> numbers of users.
>
> but i guess not.. T_T hehe..
> im wondering about how to explain this to the php programmer.
To achieve this, you almost certainly need to think about a bunch of
servers in a load-balanced configuration.
>
> can you give me some sample configurations that gave u a good benchmark
> results?
That would really be pointless. It all depends on the kind of load.
What kind of database interaction? How big are the pages? What kind
of processing needs to be done on each page? (Don't answer those
questions here. They are just the type of thing that you need to
discuss with a professional.)
Joshua.
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Re: [users@httpd] apache 2 webserver tuning
Posted by Joel Mandapat <jo...@chikka.com>.
Hi Joshua,
Thanks for ur reply.
The projection of the number of users of the php application is around
10K users.
I'm just wondering if tweaking of apache can help me achieve those
numbers of users.
but i guess not.. T_T hehe..
im wondering about how to explain this to the php programmer.
can you give me some sample configurations that gave u a good benchmark
results?
thanks.
Joshua Slive wrote:
> On 11/13/06, Joel Mandapat <jo...@chikka.com> wrote:
>> hi all,
>>
>> please help in tuning my apache webserver.
>>
>> My hardware specs are
>> AMD Opteron(tm) Processor 248
>> cpu MHz : 2205.873
>> cache size : 1024 KB
>>
>> 2GB of RAM
>> 10x100x1000 MB ethernet card (gigabit port capable)
>>
>> i have an apache 2.0.52 installed with php module.
>> i need to load dynamic php pages.
>> the goal is to maximize the server specs that i have.
>> is it possible to accomodate 10,000 users all at the same time with
>> this kind of hardware specs?
>
> Highly unlikely. I've never tried a setup like that, but do you
> really think one processor is capable of running 10000 simultaneous
> memory- and processor-hungry php pages? I doubt it. A
> very-well-tuned server with tons of memory could probably do 10,000
> simultaneous static pages, but php is a whole different story.
>
>>
>> can you give me advice in what parameters to tweak in the the
>> httpd.conf file.
>> thanks.
>
> Not really. In reality, almost all the performance characteristics of
> a problem like this are going to come from the programming of your php
> pages. Apache tuning will have little effect in comparison. And in
> any case, there is no way to give general advice. Everything depends
> on the exact details of your applications and load.
>
> What general advice there is can be found at
> http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.2/misc/perf-tuning.html
>
> Joshua.
>
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>
>
--
Joel M. Mandapat
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Re: [users@httpd] apache 2 webserver tuning
Posted by Joshua Slive <jo...@slive.ca>.
On 11/13/06, Joel Mandapat <jo...@chikka.com> wrote:
> hi all,
>
> please help in tuning my apache webserver.
>
> My hardware specs are
> AMD Opteron(tm) Processor 248
> cpu MHz : 2205.873
> cache size : 1024 KB
>
> 2GB of RAM
> 10x100x1000 MB ethernet card (gigabit port capable)
>
> i have an apache 2.0.52 installed with php module.
> i need to load dynamic php pages.
> the goal is to maximize the server specs that i have.
> is it possible to accomodate 10,000 users all at the same time with this kind of hardware specs?
Highly unlikely. I've never tried a setup like that, but do you
really think one processor is capable of running 10000 simultaneous
memory- and processor-hungry php pages? I doubt it. A
very-well-tuned server with tons of memory could probably do 10,000
simultaneous static pages, but php is a whole different story.
>
> can you give me advice in what parameters to tweak in the the httpd.conf file.
> thanks.
Not really. In reality, almost all the performance characteristics of
a problem like this are going to come from the programming of your php
pages. Apache tuning will have little effect in comparison. And in
any case, there is no way to give general advice. Everything depends
on the exact details of your applications and load.
What general advice there is can be found at
http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.2/misc/perf-tuning.html
Joshua.
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