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Posted to dev@geronimo.apache.org by Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com> on 2006/02/04 17:41:09 UTC
Geronimo and Incubation
Hi all,
I'm afraid I don't have time for a drawn-out discussion about any of this, especially
not a heated one, but a few people asked me to write this down anyway. This message is
directed primarily at the Geronimo PMC.
I've just reviewed the traffic to pmc@incubator and general@incubator on all the
different subprojects under incubation for geronimo and some of the proposed stuff
and some of the it-might-be-proposed stuff and its all very unclear to me exactly
what is going on.
This has been the case for a while now.
Just some of the things that have me scratching my head:
* A variety of status files seems to not be up-to-date
* A bunch of reminders from the incubator PMC chair for incubation status reports
went unanswered
* it seems a code grant was acked after a release vote was started (finished??)
which indicates the incubation mentors / pmc are not doing their primary job
(oversight) properly
* there's a whole bunch of heated emails about a lot of this stuff where people
rapidly change opinions without a lot of explanation
* some people were proposed as committers to a subproject without them ever
contributing a line of code to that project but that was not clear from the
proposals
and so on and so forth. I'm not going to bother to compile an extensive list; it should
be obvious to most that some things are going wrong.
I took a brief look at the dev@geronimo and pmc@geronimo mailing list archives to try
and figure out what is going on, but it seems there is a whole bunch of emails about
all this stuff there that would take me most of the weekend to read. I'm not going to
do that, I have more fun stuff to do with my free time! :-)
That's fine, eg there's no particular need for me to read all those emails and
understand precisely what is going on. I'm not a part of the geronimo PMC or its
community and I'm not actively helping with any of the gazillion stuff under
incubation under direction of the geronimo PMC.
But, and this is important, its becoming very hard to be able to perform even my
oversight duties as part of the Incubator PMC. I suspect the same is true for more
than a few incubator PMC members.
IMHO, the primary responsibility for making my job as incubator PMC member a little
easier lies with the geronimo PMC and the mentors for the geronimo subprojects under
incubation. It saddens me I even have to write this email after spending a whole
lot of my hackathon weekend explaining all this stuff to a bunch of the people I see
most active within Geronimo at the moment, and also discussing it at a stretch with
the former and current geronimo PMC chair over the course of a few months.
I feel you are more often than not doing your job as PMC properly, you're not
listening to the many gentle pointers I've given over the years to try and help
change that, and all this is making my job as an Incubator PMC member a lot harder,
more involved, and also a lot less fun. I feel its not just the energy that I've
invested that is totally being wasted, it is the energy of a whole bunch of people.
Now, I realize the above is a bit abstract. So with all that in mind, a little more
concretely, I have some suggestions. These are just my personal suggestions. In terms
of carrots and sticks, there's only a very abstract carrot ("healthy community") and
only a very big stick ("pulling the plug") that's not mine to wield, so I'm not waving
any of them around; the only thing I'm trying to do is help make some sense out of it
all.
Anyhow, I suggest that (the "you" in the below means the Geronimo PMC as a
collective):
* you guys work to update all the incubation status files and flesh them out with
much more detail
* you guys write some meaningful summaries and reports of all the stuff that went
on and is going on with regard to the stuff under incubation under the banner of
the geronimo PMC (and I really don't care about internal disagreements within
geronimo as to what is going on, get consensus on what is going on first please)
and send that info to general@incubator
* you guys leave about a week or so for the incubator PMC to read that and catch
up on it all and ask questions
* in the meantime there's no talk about any kind of release of stuff under
incubation or anything like that and you practice some patience (its likely you'll
get a -1 because the situation is currently not clear enough to be able to perform
enough oversight)
(* you take a whole bunch of traffic off of pmc@geronimo and ot into the open (man.
I remember stating that repeatedly when it was still geronimo-ppmc@incubator.
Sigh).)
* you don't propose any new stuff for incubation for a while so that everything
gets a chance to settle down and cool down and can proceed at a more healthy pace
* when you do decide to bring in more stuff you take into consideration this whole
concept of "oversight" more seriously and you make it a whole lot easier for the
incubator PMC to perform its duties
* you guys in general take a more active part in helping along the incubation process,
participating on the Incubator PMC and the general@incubator mailing list, thinking
about how you can help the incubator instead of the other way around, etc etc.
That's about all I can think of right now. Well, I can think of more, but this email
is long enough already. Hope it helps...
cheers!
LSD
Re: Geronimo and Incubation
Posted by Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com>.
Hi Aaron!
On Sat, Feb 04, 2006 at 03:02:23PM -0500, Aaron Mulder wrote:
> If you want to involve the community outside the various PMCs, then
Heh. This ain't just open source, its open "just about everything". Of
course I want the wider (developer) community involved...I'd hope
everyone wants that -- its one of the fundamental pillars upon which
apache is built!
> IMHO it might be helpful for you to list or point to a writeup of the
> duties of the incubator PMC.
No problem! The incubator front page at
http://incubator.apache.org/
is in large part devoted to being that writeup.
> I'm not at all clear on what the
> incubator is supposed to do other than vet code and the somewhat
> abstract "ensure healthy communities".
If you want to get a clearer picture, please do spend some time reading
the incubator website and the general@incubator archives at
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/
A lot has been said about precisely this previously.
> If the code has been vetted,
Actually, the incubator is (among other things) there to ensure that
new stuff entering the ASF is vetted, but less so to actually /do/ the
"code vetting" - the responsibility for actually doing that is pretty
much completely delegated to other PMCs, or to a PPMC (like geronimo
once had).
Note there is no "the" code I referred to. However, according to the
status files for the subprojects under incubation on behalf of geronimo,
there's a whole bunch of code that hasn't been vetted just yet.
> it seems clear to me that the Geronimo community is healthy
I did not intend to question the health of the Geronimo community in
general in my previous email. What I talked about (and questioned) was
the health of the interaction between the geronimo project and the
incubation process, and more specifically the interaction between the
body responsible for oversight of the geronimo project (its PMC) and the
incubation process.
> and (with
> and without the addition of the proposed subprojects) growing, so I'm
> wondering what else the incubator PMC feels responsible for.
Once again, please do note my email was not on behalf of the incubator
PMC but completely on personal title. However, to answer your question,
http://incubator.apache.org/resolution.html
spells out precisely what the incubator PMC is responsible for.
> I'm also
> wondering why adding code and contributors to an existing healthy
> project would be a bad thing.
I would too. Its usually a Good Thing(tm). I don't understand where this
comment is coming from at all. I certainly did not mean to imply anything
along these lines. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.
> About the only thing that seems like a
> problem to me (other than certain explosive e-mails, which in the main
> did not seem to be from Geronimo or incubating-project members), is
> the issue of proposed committers who did not actually contribute to
> the projects in question (bearing in mind that code is not the only
> possible type of contribution).
I explicitly didn't try to compile a list of problems. That's just a really
painful process which leads to lots of discussion and friction. While that
may be fruitful, I don't think it would help for me to try and be a part of
that process.
Please do recognize there is a lot of information from private mailing lists
and off-list conversations that can lead to a perspective different from
yours. There's unfortunately preciously little I can do personally about
reconciling this difference since it is not appropriate for me to disclose
details from private discussions.
IMNSHO, most of these kinds of talks should be had on public mailing lists.
So even though I can't quote from private archives, I can certainly make my
own contributions "as public as possible". Let's hope others do as well.
cheers,
LSD
<snip content="my first email in this thread"/>
Re: Geronimo and Incubation
Posted by Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com>.
Hi Aaron!
On Sat, Feb 04, 2006 at 03:02:23PM -0500, Aaron Mulder wrote:
> If you want to involve the community outside the various PMCs, then
Heh. This ain't just open source, its open "just about everything". Of
course I want the wider (developer) community involved...I'd hope
everyone wants that -- its one of the fundamental pillars upon which
apache is built!
> IMHO it might be helpful for you to list or point to a writeup of the
> duties of the incubator PMC.
No problem! The incubator front page at
http://incubator.apache.org/
is in large part devoted to being that writeup.
> I'm not at all clear on what the
> incubator is supposed to do other than vet code and the somewhat
> abstract "ensure healthy communities".
If you want to get a clearer picture, please do spend some time reading
the incubator website and the general@incubator archives at
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/
A lot has been said about precisely this previously.
> If the code has been vetted,
Actually, the incubator is (among other things) there to ensure that
new stuff entering the ASF is vetted, but less so to actually /do/ the
"code vetting" - the responsibility for actually doing that is pretty
much completely delegated to other PMCs, or to a PPMC (like geronimo
once had).
Note there is no "the" code I referred to. However, according to the
status files for the subprojects under incubation on behalf of geronimo,
there's a whole bunch of code that hasn't been vetted just yet.
> it seems clear to me that the Geronimo community is healthy
I did not intend to question the health of the Geronimo community in
general in my previous email. What I talked about (and questioned) was
the health of the interaction between the geronimo project and the
incubation process, and more specifically the interaction between the
body responsible for oversight of the geronimo project (its PMC) and the
incubation process.
> and (with
> and without the addition of the proposed subprojects) growing, so I'm
> wondering what else the incubator PMC feels responsible for.
Once again, please do note my email was not on behalf of the incubator
PMC but completely on personal title. However, to answer your question,
http://incubator.apache.org/resolution.html
spells out precisely what the incubator PMC is responsible for.
> I'm also
> wondering why adding code and contributors to an existing healthy
> project would be a bad thing.
I would too. Its usually a Good Thing(tm). I don't understand where this
comment is coming from at all. I certainly did not mean to imply anything
along these lines. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.
> About the only thing that seems like a
> problem to me (other than certain explosive e-mails, which in the main
> did not seem to be from Geronimo or incubating-project members), is
> the issue of proposed committers who did not actually contribute to
> the projects in question (bearing in mind that code is not the only
> possible type of contribution).
I explicitly didn't try to compile a list of problems. That's just a really
painful process which leads to lots of discussion and friction. While that
may be fruitful, I don't think it would help for me to try and be a part of
that process.
Please do recognize there is a lot of information from private mailing lists
and off-list conversations that can lead to a perspective different from
yours. There's unfortunately preciously little I can do personally about
reconciling this difference since it is not appropriate for me to disclose
details from private discussions.
IMNSHO, most of these kinds of talks should be had on public mailing lists.
So even though I can't quote from private archives, I can certainly make my
own contributions "as public as possible". Let's hope others do as well.
cheers,
LSD
<snip content="my first email in this thread"/>
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Re: Geronimo and Incubation
Posted by Aaron Mulder <am...@alumni.princeton.edu>.
If you want to involve the community outside the various PMCs, then
IMHO it might be helpful for you to list or point to a writeup of the
duties of the incubator PMC. I'm not at all clear on what the
incubator is supposed to do other than vet code and the somewhat
abstract "ensure healthy communities". If the code has been vetted,
it seems clear to me that the Geronimo community is healthy and (with
and without the addition of the proposed subprojects) growing, so I'm
wondering what else the incubator PMC feels responsible for. I'm also
wondering why adding code and contributors to an existing healthy
project would be a bad thing. About the only thing that seems like a
problem to me (other than certain explosive e-mails, which in the main
did not seem to be from Geronimo or incubating-project members), is
the issue of proposed committers who did not actually contribute to
the projects in question (bearing in mind that code is not the only
possible type of contribution).
Thanks,
Aaron
On 2/4/06, Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm afraid I don't have time for a drawn-out discussion about any of this, especially
> not a heated one, but a few people asked me to write this down anyway. This message is
> directed primarily at the Geronimo PMC.
>
> I've just reviewed the traffic to pmc@incubator and general@incubator on all the
> different subprojects under incubation for geronimo and some of the proposed stuff
> and some of the it-might-be-proposed stuff and its all very unclear to me exactly
> what is going on.
>
> This has been the case for a while now.
>
> Just some of the things that have me scratching my head:
>
> * A variety of status files seems to not be up-to-date
> * A bunch of reminders from the incubator PMC chair for incubation status reports
> went unanswered
> * it seems a code grant was acked after a release vote was started (finished??)
> which indicates the incubation mentors / pmc are not doing their primary job
> (oversight) properly
> * there's a whole bunch of heated emails about a lot of this stuff where people
> rapidly change opinions without a lot of explanation
> * some people were proposed as committers to a subproject without them ever
> contributing a line of code to that project but that was not clear from the
> proposals
>
> and so on and so forth. I'm not going to bother to compile an extensive list; it should
> be obvious to most that some things are going wrong.
>
> I took a brief look at the dev@geronimo and pmc@geronimo mailing list archives to try
> and figure out what is going on, but it seems there is a whole bunch of emails about
> all this stuff there that would take me most of the weekend to read. I'm not going to
> do that, I have more fun stuff to do with my free time! :-)
>
> That's fine, eg there's no particular need for me to read all those emails and
> understand precisely what is going on. I'm not a part of the geronimo PMC or its
> community and I'm not actively helping with any of the gazillion stuff under
> incubation under direction of the geronimo PMC.
>
> But, and this is important, its becoming very hard to be able to perform even my
> oversight duties as part of the Incubator PMC. I suspect the same is true for more
> than a few incubator PMC members.
>
> IMHO, the primary responsibility for making my job as incubator PMC member a little
> easier lies with the geronimo PMC and the mentors for the geronimo subprojects under
> incubation. It saddens me I even have to write this email after spending a whole
> lot of my hackathon weekend explaining all this stuff to a bunch of the people I see
> most active within Geronimo at the moment, and also discussing it at a stretch with
> the former and current geronimo PMC chair over the course of a few months.
>
> I feel you are more often than not doing your job as PMC properly, you're not
> listening to the many gentle pointers I've given over the years to try and help
> change that, and all this is making my job as an Incubator PMC member a lot harder,
> more involved, and also a lot less fun. I feel its not just the energy that I've
> invested that is totally being wasted, it is the energy of a whole bunch of people.
>
> Now, I realize the above is a bit abstract. So with all that in mind, a little more
> concretely, I have some suggestions. These are just my personal suggestions. In terms
> of carrots and sticks, there's only a very abstract carrot ("healthy community") and
> only a very big stick ("pulling the plug") that's not mine to wield, so I'm not waving
> any of them around; the only thing I'm trying to do is help make some sense out of it
> all.
>
> Anyhow, I suggest that (the "you" in the below means the Geronimo PMC as a
> collective):
>
> * you guys work to update all the incubation status files and flesh them out with
> much more detail
>
> * you guys write some meaningful summaries and reports of all the stuff that went
> on and is going on with regard to the stuff under incubation under the banner of
> the geronimo PMC (and I really don't care about internal disagreements within
> geronimo as to what is going on, get consensus on what is going on first please)
> and send that info to general@incubator
>
> * you guys leave about a week or so for the incubator PMC to read that and catch
> up on it all and ask questions
>
> * in the meantime there's no talk about any kind of release of stuff under
> incubation or anything like that and you practice some patience (its likely you'll
> get a -1 because the situation is currently not clear enough to be able to perform
> enough oversight)
>
> (* you take a whole bunch of traffic off of pmc@geronimo and ot into the open (man.
> I remember stating that repeatedly when it was still geronimo-ppmc@incubator.
> Sigh).)
>
> * you don't propose any new stuff for incubation for a while so that everything
> gets a chance to settle down and cool down and can proceed at a more healthy pace
>
> * when you do decide to bring in more stuff you take into consideration this whole
> concept of "oversight" more seriously and you make it a whole lot easier for the
> incubator PMC to perform its duties
>
> * you guys in general take a more active part in helping along the incubation process,
> participating on the Incubator PMC and the general@incubator mailing list, thinking
> about how you can help the incubator instead of the other way around, etc etc.
>
> That's about all I can think of right now. Well, I can think of more, but this email
> is long enough already. Hope it helps...
>
>
> cheers!
>
>
> LSD
>