How big is the Tapestry community?

[Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com>]

Here's a question: how many people are using Tapestry?  And how do you
figure out how many people are using Tapestry?

When asked, I answer what I think is an honest answer: there's
probably 1000 - 2000 teams using Tapestry ... but mostly I pulled that
number out of the air. That would be one team for every five copies of
"Tapestry in Action" sold, but that's now an old book. There's at
least an order of magnitude from Tapestry to Struts. I wonder how T5
compares to SpringMVC or Grails?

So, what would be YOUR estimate and YOUR methodology for determining
the number of Tapestry coders out there?

-- 
Howard M. Lewis Ship

Creator of Apache Tapestry
Director of Open Source Technology at Formos

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Re: How big is the Tapestry community?

[Martin Papy <ma...@liber-mundi.org>]

I would make exactly the same analysis. I don't know many people that uses
Tapestry... And the book is much too old (even for the 5.0.x). The good
thing is that all the people I showed Tapestry to and tried to work with it
now prefers it :)

Martin



Craig St. Jean-4 wrote:
> 
> Well, I've worked at a couple of places and used both Struts and JSF in
> the
> workplace.  I'm the only one that I know that develops using Tapestry (for
> personal use), and maybe 1 or 2 people had heard of it (prior to me
> telling
> them about it).  So my guess?  Probably a low single digit percentage when
> looking at all JEE shops.
> 
> And, now that you mention Tapestry in Action, it would be great to get a
> new
> book out there!  I realize that documentation like that is expensive, so
> maybe Formos or yourself starts a place for donations?  The WIKI is so-so,
> and the component references are decent, but it would be really nice to
> have
> something that actually shows the power of Tapestry, along with best
> practices, in 1 place such as a book.
> 
> On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 12:00 PM, Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> Here's a question: how many people are using Tapestry?  And how do you
>> figure out how many people are using Tapestry?
>>
>> When asked, I answer what I think is an honest answer: there's
>> probably 1000 - 2000 teams using Tapestry ... but mostly I pulled that
>> number out of the air. That would be one team for every five copies of
>> "Tapestry in Action" sold, but that's now an old book. There's at
>> least an order of magnitude from Tapestry to Struts. I wonder how T5
>> compares to SpringMVC or Grails?
>>
>> So, what would be YOUR estimate and YOUR methodology for determining
>> the number of Tapestry coders out there?
>>
>> --
>> Howard M. Lewis Ship
>>
>> Creator of Apache Tapestry
>> Director of Open Source Technology at Formos
>>
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> 
> 

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Re: How big is the Tapestry community?

["Craig St. Jean" <cr...@gmail.com>]

Well, I've worked at a couple of places and used both Struts and JSF in the
workplace.  I'm the only one that I know that develops using Tapestry (for
personal use), and maybe 1 or 2 people had heard of it (prior to me telling
them about it).  So my guess?  Probably a low single digit percentage when
looking at all JEE shops.

And, now that you mention Tapestry in Action, it would be great to get a new
book out there!  I realize that documentation like that is expensive, so
maybe Formos or yourself starts a place for donations?  The WIKI is so-so,
and the component references are decent, but it would be really nice to have
something that actually shows the power of Tapestry, along with best
practices, in 1 place such as a book.

On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 12:00 PM, Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Here's a question: how many people are using Tapestry?  And how do you
> figure out how many people are using Tapestry?
>
> When asked, I answer what I think is an honest answer: there's
> probably 1000 - 2000 teams using Tapestry ... but mostly I pulled that
> number out of the air. That would be one team for every five copies of
> "Tapestry in Action" sold, but that's now an old book. There's at
> least an order of magnitude from Tapestry to Struts. I wonder how T5
> compares to SpringMVC or Grails?
>
> So, what would be YOUR estimate and YOUR methodology for determining
> the number of Tapestry coders out there?
>
> --
> Howard M. Lewis Ship
>
> Creator of Apache Tapestry
> Director of Open Source Technology at Formos
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>

Re: How big is the Tapestry community?

[ice <fr...@gmail.com>]

Sergey Didenko wrote:
> 
> What about putting the poll to the top of Tapestry official site:
> 
> - I use Tapestry professionally
> - I use Tapestry for my hobby projects
> - I do not use Tapestry
> 
> and so on?
> 
> 

A survey sounds good, although IMHO it is unlikely that you'll get many
respondents who aren't actually using it. In my experience, most of the
people who know/care about Tapestry, is already using it.

To test this, i'll start a survey in my own developer forum (about 2000
software developers from Argentina). I haven't seen a single question about
it before, so i can notice a lack of awareness of the capabilities of the
framework.
http://www.pcmasmas.com/viewtopic.php?t=33090

What i believe the Tapestry as a community need to grow is 

- a book on Tapestry 5.1, showing the power of the framework, not just
presenting it.
- more marketing, there isn't much discussion about it apart from the
mailing list. Taking the example of Spring, three books in a row helped
build momentum. Submitting articles to well-known community sites such as
TSS and InfoQ help diffusion. 

My 2 cents,
Fernando
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Re: How big is the Tapestry community?

[Sergey Didenko <se...@gmail.com>]

What about putting the poll to the top of Tapestry official site:

- I use Tapestry professionally
- I use Tapestry for my hobby projects
- I do not use Tapestry

and so on?

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Re: How big is the Tapestry community?

[Geoffrey Wiseman <ge...@gmail.com>]

On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 4:21 PM, Piero Sartini <li...@pierosartini.de> wrote:

> > If we could know the number of downloads per version or per each release
> > say from 5.0 up to latest release might enable us to guess the number of
> > active users.
>
> I think most people are using Maven2 - and even if we could get the logs
> from
> ibiblio.org -> I am downloading it on any machine I need to build a
> project. I
> think we can't guess the number of users from these stats.
>

Tricky - most organizations with even a few co-located developers using
Maven will end up with a repository, and then the true number of Tapestry
users will be hidden by the proxying effect of a property.

  - Geoffrey
-- 
Geoffrey Wiseman
http://www.geoffreywiseman.ca/

Re: How big is the Tapestry community?

[Piero Sartini <li...@pierosartini.de>]

> If we could know the number of downloads per version or per each release
> say from 5.0 up to latest release might enable us to guess the number of
> active users.

I think most people are using Maven2 - and even if we could get the logs from 
ibiblio.org -> I am downloading it on any machine I need to build a project. I  
think we can't guess the number of users from these stats.

	Piero

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Re: How big is the Tapestry community?

[spaway <su...@googlemail.com>]

Dear All,

I am impresed with this topic.  I recently decided to pick up a framework
for use in development after spending some years with jsp/servlets models.
I do not exactly why but I prefer to use Tapestry against others.

If we could know the number of downloads per version or per each release say
from 5.0 up to latest release might enable us to guess the number of active
users.

I am using Tapestry 5 - Building Web Applications by Alexander Koleniskov as
a guide and t5.1.0.5 and in many places I encounter variances.  I think the
level of documentation on Tapestry is very poor and this will scare people
away - am I missing where/how to access the right documentation?

Cheers

SPA

2009/6/6 Daniel Jue <te...@gmail.com>

> Here is my cup 'o coffee estimate...
>
> For people using it professionally, what is their propensity for being
> on this official mailing list?  (It's good that there is only one, and
> there are not forums dedicated to Tapestry (aside from those that
> mirror the mailing list))
>
> M = mailing list population, including lurkers
> P = propensity coefficient for users being on the mailing list where 0 < P
> <=1
> U = number of Tapestry users = M/P
>
> Or
>
> T = median size of a team (# developers)
> W = median of team members subscribed to the mailing list where 1 <= W <= T
> U = number of Tapestry users = MT/W
>
> (simpson's paradox here?  maybe)
>
> Or
>
> U = M [sum T*Wt, T=1 to max team size, Wt = propensity for a team
> member to be subscribed for team size T, 0<Wt<1]
> 'Team' might be better described as the subset of the team working on
> the web tier of an application.
>
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>

Re: How big is the Tapestry community?

[Daniel Jue <te...@gmail.com>]

Here is my cup 'o coffee estimate...

For people using it professionally, what is their propensity for being
on this official mailing list?  (It's good that there is only one, and
there are not forums dedicated to Tapestry (aside from those that
mirror the mailing list))

M = mailing list population, including lurkers
P = propensity coefficient for users being on the mailing list where 0 < P <=1
U = number of Tapestry users = M/P

Or

T = median size of a team (# developers)
W = median of team members subscribed to the mailing list where 1 <= W <= T
U = number of Tapestry users = MT/W

(simpson's paradox here?  maybe)

Or

U = M [sum T*Wt, T=1 to max team size, Wt = propensity for a team
member to be subscribed for team size T, 0<Wt<1]
'Team' might be better described as the subset of the team working on
the web tier of an application.

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Re: How big is the Tapestry community?

[Kalle Korhonen <ka...@gmail.com>]

I think you are on the right track Ivano. If we just had a poll on a
Tapestry mailing list or we'd try to size only the number of users of
Tapestry using some other method, what would we do with that? We could
perhaps ask Matt Raible to put up a new poll - that way we can at
least get an idea of how popular is Tapestry among the Java frameworks
(presumably heterogeneous set of Java devs are reading his blog). You
listening, Matt?

Kalle


On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 7:11 AM, Ivano Luberti<lu...@archicoop.it> wrote:
> Maybe an answer to this question can be found answering a more general
> question: how much is Tapestry used among all the frameworks.
> I remeber, a chart reported by Matt Raible (who is (or at least has
> been) in this ml) in one of his presentations: the chart showed how many
> jobs were offered on LinkedIn in which a java framework knowledge was
> required.
>
>
>
>
> Howard Lewis Ship ha scritto:
>> Here's a question: how many people are using Tapestry?  And how do you
>> figure out how many people are using Tapestry?
>>
>> When asked, I answer what I think is an honest answer: there's
>> probably 1000 - 2000 teams using Tapestry ... but mostly I pulled that
>> number out of the air. That would be one team for every five copies of
>> "Tapestry in Action" sold, but that's now an old book. There's at
>> least an order of magnitude from Tapestry to Struts. I wonder how T5
>> compares to SpringMVC or Grails?
>>
>> So, what would be YOUR estimate and YOUR methodology for determining
>> the number of Tapestry coders out there?
>>
>>
>
> --
> ==================================================
> dott. Ivano Mario Luberti
> Archimede Informatica societa' cooperativa a r. l.
> Sede Operativa
> Via Gereschi 36 - 56126- Pisa
> tel.: +39-050- 580959
> tel/fax: +39-050-9711344
> web: www.archicoop.it
> ==================================================
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>

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Re: How big is the Tapestry community?

[Ivano Luberti <lu...@archicoop.it>]

Maybe an answer to this question can be found answering a more general
question: how much is Tapestry used among all the frameworks.
I remeber, a chart reported by Matt Raible (who is (or at least has
been) in this ml) in one of his presentations: the chart showed how many
jobs were offered on LinkedIn in which a java framework knowledge was
required.




Howard Lewis Ship ha scritto:
> Here's a question: how many people are using Tapestry?  And how do you
> figure out how many people are using Tapestry?
>
> When asked, I answer what I think is an honest answer: there's
> probably 1000 - 2000 teams using Tapestry ... but mostly I pulled that
> number out of the air. That would be one team for every five copies of
> "Tapestry in Action" sold, but that's now an old book. There's at
> least an order of magnitude from Tapestry to Struts. I wonder how T5
> compares to SpringMVC or Grails?
>
> So, what would be YOUR estimate and YOUR methodology for determining
> the number of Tapestry coders out there?
>
>   

-- 
==================================================
dott. Ivano Mario Luberti
Archimede Informatica societa' cooperativa a r. l.
Sede Operativa
Via Gereschi 36 - 56126- Pisa
tel.: +39-050- 580959
tel/fax: +39-050-9711344
web: www.archicoop.it
==================================================


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Re: How big is the Tapestry community?

[Ulrich Stärk <ul...@spielviel.de>]

This will only give you the number of people actively following the 
mailing list (if at all, because most of them won't participate even if 
they read the mailing list).

I think that answering this question will be quite difficult because 
it's hard to get the intended audience to participate. If you want a 
real picture of the world out there you'd have to design and carry out a 
really good study...

Uli

Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo schrieb:
> Em Sat, 06 Jun 2009 13:00:34 -0300, Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com> 
> escreveu:
> 
>> Here's a question: how many people are using Tapestry?  And how do you
>> figure out how many people are using Tapestry?
> 
> Maybe we could do something like a Tapestry user survey (census?) in 
> Tapestry360 in some other place and ask people in the mailing list to 
> answer it. What do you think? It will not cover everyone using Tapestry, 
> but I guess most users at least read the mailing list.
> 


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Re: How big is the Tapestry community?

["Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo" <th...@gmail.com>]

Em Sat, 06 Jun 2009 13:00:34 -0300, Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com>  
escreveu:

> Here's a question: how many people are using Tapestry?  And how do you
> figure out how many people are using Tapestry?

Maybe we could do something like a Tapestry user survey (census?) in  
Tapestry360 in some other place and ask people in the mailing list to  
answer it. What do you think? It will not cover everyone using Tapestry,  
but I guess most users at least read the mailing list.

-- 
Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
Independent Java consultant, developer, and instructor
http://www.arsmachina.com.br/thiago

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