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Posted to dev@avalon.apache.org by Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org> on 2003/04/22 19:25:53 UTC
[PMC:Proposal] Opening up access to Excalibur/Sandbox
I propose that we open up Avalon Excalibur/Sandbox to Avalon dependent
projects in Apache land. The short list would be Cocoon, JAMES, and
FOP (?). By opening up the CVS access on those projects, we can open
up the support of those components to a wider set of developers.
That will assure us that the code will be properly supported, while
still allowing us to focus on the other issues. It will also help
foster a more cooperative atmosphere with other teams.
--
"You know the world is going crazy when the best
rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy,
The Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is
accusing the US of arrogance, and Germany doesn't want
to go to war. And the 3 most powerful men in America
are named 'Bush', 'Dick', and 'Colon' (sic)".
-----Chris Rock
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Re: [PMC:Proposal] Opening up access to Excalibur/Sandbox
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Jeremias Maerki wrote, On 23/04/2003 10.27:
...
> I can't answer for Paul, but: Not IMHO. I see Excalibur as a first basic
> layer above Framework which provides basic tools and containers for an
> Avalon system. Its sandbox is part of it. Avalon committers live there.
> They develop the basic Avalon environment. Avalon Commons should,
> similar to Jakarta Commons, provide a place where colaboration between
> Avalon-dependant projects happens. Any Apache committer working in an
> Avalon-dependant Apache (sub-)project should have access to a Avalon
> Commons Sandbox upon request and the same rules as in Jakarta Commons
> should be applied for the promotion of components from the sandbox.
>
> I think, this approach would address the reservations of some Avalon
> committers towards admitting other developers because it provides a
> clear separation of basic Avalon tech from commonly used components.
Ok, the fact is that what you call Excalibur will go in the main Avalon
module, and Excalibur is what you call Commons.
There is some misunderstanding based on the fact that Excalibur has been
many things to many people. All container code will go in the main
avalon module. Excalibur is our Component module, not a Container
module. Fortress being in there is 'legacy' in this regard.
I think we basically agree, it's just a matter of understanding each other.
Avalon is:
Framework avalon
Components avalon-excalibur (Exaclibur) + /outer projects/
Containers avalon (SECA) + /outer projects/
Apps /outer projects/
Sandbox avalon-sandbox
There is no more utility code, just a framework + reference container in
'avalon', and shared component space in avalon-excalibur.
Something between these lines, anyway.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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Re: [PMC:Proposal] Opening up access to Excalibur/Sandbox
Posted by Jeremias Maerki <de...@greenmail.ch>.
On 23.04.2003 08:45:23 Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
>
> Paul Hammant wrote, On 23/04/2003 8.31:
> > I'll vote against this : -1
> >
> > Partial commit/vote rights? No thanks. Too many dynamics changing.
> >
> > I'd vote in favor of Avalon-Commons though
>
> Could you please explain in more detail? I think there is room for
> agreement here. In my head Avalon-Commons and Excalibur/Sandbox sound
> basically the same...
I can't answer for Paul, but: Not IMHO. I see Excalibur as a first basic
layer above Framework which provides basic tools and containers for an
Avalon system. Its sandbox is part of it. Avalon committers live there.
They develop the basic Avalon environment. Avalon Commons should,
similar to Jakarta Commons, provide a place where colaboration between
Avalon-dependant projects happens. Any Apache committer working in an
Avalon-dependant Apache (sub-)project should have access to a Avalon
Commons Sandbox upon request and the same rules as in Jakarta Commons
should be applied for the promotion of components from the sandbox.
I think, this approach would address the reservations of some Avalon
committers towards admitting other developers because it provides a
clear separation of basic Avalon tech from commonly used components.
> >> I propose that we open up Avalon Excalibur/Sandbox to Avalon dependent
> >> projects in Apache land. The short list would be Cocoon, JAMES, and
> >> FOP (?). By opening up the CVS access on those projects, we can open
> >> up the support of those components to a wider set of developers.
> >>
> >> That will assure us that the code will be properly supported, while
> >> still allowing us to focus on the other issues. It will also help
> >> foster a more cooperative atmosphere with other teams.
Jeremias Maerki
FOP committer and Avalon enthusiast
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Re: [PMC:Proposal] Opening up access to Excalibur/Sandbox
Posted by Paul Hammant <Pa...@ThoughtWorks.net>.
Nicola,
Without the 'commons' designation, people may assume/hope/demand right
to vote on issues concerning the the wider Avalon. I don't think people
should be granted wholescale access to excalibur or sandbox. I doubt
we'd be allowed to create another avalon prefixed module. I'll be
resisting any joiners who've not done the prerequisite six months of
patches. Avalon is hard enough to understand without letting people
rush in who _half_ understand it.
I'm out voted anyway
- Paul
>
>
> Paul Hammant wrote, On 23/04/2003 8.31:
>
>> I'll vote against this : -1
>>
>> Partial commit/vote rights? No thanks. Too many dynamics changing.
>>
>> I'd vote in favor of Avalon-Commons though
>
>
> Could you please explain in more detail? I think there is room for
> agreement here. In my head Avalon-Commons and Excalibur/Sandbox sound
> basically the same...
>
>> - Paul
>>
>>> I propose that we open up Avalon Excalibur/Sandbox to Avalon dependent
>>> projects in Apache land. The short list would be Cocoon, JAMES, and
>>> FOP (?). By opening up the CVS access on those projects, we can open
>>> up the support of those components to a wider set of developers.
>>>
>>> That will assure us that the code will be properly supported, while
>>> still allowing us to focus on the other issues. It will also help
>>> foster a more cooperative atmosphere with other teams.
>>
>
>
--
http://www.thoughtworks.com : The art of heavy lifting.
Home for many Agile-practicing Open Source activists...
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Re: [PMC:Proposal] Opening up access to Excalibur/Sandbox
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Paul Hammant wrote, On 23/04/2003 8.31:
> I'll vote against this : -1
>
> Partial commit/vote rights? No thanks. Too many dynamics changing.
>
> I'd vote in favor of Avalon-Commons though
Could you please explain in more detail? I think there is room for
agreement here. In my head Avalon-Commons and Excalibur/Sandbox sound
basically the same...
> - Paul
>
>> I propose that we open up Avalon Excalibur/Sandbox to Avalon dependent
>> projects in Apache land. The short list would be Cocoon, JAMES, and
>> FOP (?). By opening up the CVS access on those projects, we can open
>> up the support of those components to a wider set of developers.
>>
>> That will assure us that the code will be properly supported, while
>> still allowing us to focus on the other issues. It will also help
>> foster a more cooperative atmosphere with other teams.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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Re: [summary][PMC:Proposal] Opening up access to Excalibur/Sandbox
Posted by Bruno Dumon <br...@outerthought.org>.
Has any progress been made regarding this matter?
Thanks,
Bruno
--
Bruno Dumon http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
bruno@outerthought.org bruno@apache.org
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Re: [summary][PMC:Proposal] Opening up access to Excalibur/Sandbox
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>.
Leo Simons wrote:
> votes so far
> ------------
> +1 Berin, Leo Simons, Nicola, Peter Royal,
> Carsten Ziegeler*, Leo Sutic*
> -1 Paul Hammant
>
> * these guys didn't vote as part of this thread, but have voted in
> favour of getting Bruno in, which amounts to a de-facto +1 here as well
>
> So....
> ------
> Under our voting rules, this means the proposal has passed, if you are
> willing to disregard that the thread wasn't labelled with "VOTE".
> However, Paul's -1 is left dangling in mid-air.
>
> What say you?
It is still a proposal, and the formal vote has to reflect the issues
and resolutions. Let's put this vote in the open as well.
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Re: [summary][PMC:Proposal] Opening up access to Excalibur/Sandbox
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>.
Leo Simons wrote:
> votes so far
> ------------
> +1 Berin, Leo Simons, Nicola, Peter Royal,
> Carsten Ziegeler*, Leo Sutic*
> -1 Paul Hammant
>
> * these guys didn't vote as part of this thread, but have voted in
> favour of getting Bruno in, which amounts to a de-facto +1 here as well
>
> So....
> ------
> Under our voting rules, this means the proposal has passed, if you are
> willing to disregard that the thread wasn't labelled with "VOTE".
> However, Paul's -1 is left dangling in mid-air.
>
> What say you?
It is still a proposal, and the formal vote has to reflect the issues
and resolutions. Let's put this vote in the open as well.
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Re: [summary][PMC:Proposal] Opening up access to Excalibur/Sandbox
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 21/05/2003 11:39 Leo Sutic wrote:
> PMC votes are majority votes ( 1/2 or 2/3 ), so there is
> really nothing to resolve. -1 can stand for Paul.
Thanks!
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
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RE: [summary][PMC:Proposal] Opening up access to Excalibur/Sandbox
Posted by Leo Sutic <le...@inspireinfrastructure.com>.
> From: Steven Noels [mailto:stevenn@outerthought.org]
>
> On 20/05/2003 17:21 Leo Simons wrote:
>
> > votes so far
> > ------------
> > +1 Berin, Leo Simons, Nicola, Peter Royal,
> > Carsten Ziegeler*, Leo Sutic*
> > -1 Paul Hammant
>
> Is there anything we (Cocoonies) can do to resolve this -1?
PMC votes are majority votes ( 1/2 or 2/3 ), so there is
really nothing to resolve. -1 can stand for Paul.
/LS
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RE: [summary][PMC:Proposal] Opening up access to Excalibur/Sandbox
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> Is there anything we (Cocoonies) can do to resolve this -1?
As a procedural matter, I do not believe that the -1 is blocking. As a
social matter, you might wish to discuss it with the voter.
--- Noel
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Re: [summary][PMC:Proposal] Opening up access to Excalibur/Sandbox
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 20/05/2003 17:21 Leo Simons wrote:
> votes so far
> ------------
> +1 Berin, Leo Simons, Nicola, Peter Royal,
> Carsten Ziegeler*, Leo Sutic*
> -1 Paul Hammant
Is there anything we (Cocoonies) can do to resolve this -1?
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
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[summary][PMC:Proposal] Opening up access to Excalibur/Sandbox
Posted by Leo Simons <le...@apache.org>.
we basically have left this unresolved. Kinda not good as we want to
apply the results :D. Let's wrap up.
Summary of thread
-----------------
proposal from Berin: be open to granting karma on avalon-excalibur and
avalon-cornerstone cvs to people who wish to work on components in those
repositories, without "formal" avalon committer status (ie without the
priviledges or obligations related to framework, fortress, phoenix, etc
etc, or project-wide matters)
issue: commit/voting right partitioning? Ugh.
answer: no voting rights, just commit karma because it is easier than
working with diff/patch.
issue: isn't the board against this?
answer: no.
issue: excalibur is not just components. We don't want cocoon people who
work on xmlutil to have anything to say about fortress.
answer: we have here the technology limitations of CVS. We'll have to
trust people to behave. Since they're ASF committers, that's a
reasonable expectation
issue: an "avalon-components" (whether an avalon subproject or just the
more lazy case-by-case commit access to excalibur/cornerstone) doesn't
fit us; stuff should go into jakarta-commons
answer: good point; we had extensive talks about it on the commons list.
Basically those guys think it is better to keep things like xmlutil
here. See archives for commons-dev :D
votes so far
------------
+1 Berin, Leo Simons, Nicola, Peter Royal,
Carsten Ziegeler*, Leo Sutic*
-1 Paul Hammant
* these guys didn't vote as part of this thread, but have voted in
favour of getting Bruno in, which amounts to a de-facto +1 here as well
So....
------
Under our voting rules, this means the proposal has passed, if you are
willing to disregard that the thread wasn't labelled with "VOTE".
However, Paul's -1 is left dangling in mid-air.
What say you?
Paul, you want to elaborate on your objections, change your vote in
light of additional context given, or just leave things as is and move
forward?
grz,
- LSD
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Re: [PMC:Proposal] Opening up access to Excalibur/Sandbox
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>.
Peter Donald wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Apr 2003 22:21, Berin Loritsch wrote:
>
>>>I'd vote in favor of Avalon-Commons though
>>
>>Think of Sandbox/Excalibur combo as your Avalon Commons
>
>
> Can you tell me whats wrong with Jakarta-Commons?
>
They don't accept Avalon components.
--
"You know the world is going crazy when the best
rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy,
The Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is
accusing the US of arrogance, and Germany doesn't want
to go to war. And the 3 most powerful men in America
are named 'Bush', 'Dick', and 'Colon' (sic)".
-----Chris Rock
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Re: [PMC:Proposal] Opening up access to Excalibur/Sandbox
Posted by Peter Donald <pe...@realityforge.org>.
On Wed, 23 Apr 2003 22:21, Berin Loritsch wrote:
> > I'd vote in favor of Avalon-Commons though
>
> Think of Sandbox/Excalibur combo as your Avalon Commons
Can you tell me whats wrong with Jakarta-Commons?
--
Cheers,
Peter Donald
---------------------------------------------------
"Therefore it can be said that victorious warriors
win first, and then go to battle, while defeated
warriors go to battle first, and then seek to win."
- Sun Tzu, the Art Of War
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Re: [PMC:Proposal] Opening up access to Excalibur/Sandbox
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>.
Paul Hammant wrote:
> I'll vote against this : -1
>
> Partial commit/vote rights? No thanks. Too many dynamics changing.
Huh? I didn't have any comment of voting rights.
>
> I'd vote in favor of Avalon-Commons though
Think of Sandbox/Excalibur combo as your Avalon Commons
>
> - Paul
>
>> I propose that we open up Avalon Excalibur/Sandbox to Avalon dependent
>> projects in Apache land. The short list would be Cocoon, JAMES, and
>> FOP (?). By opening up the CVS access on those projects, we can open
>> up the support of those components to a wider set of developers.
>>
>> That will assure us that the code will be properly supported, while
>> still allowing us to focus on the other issues. It will also help
>> foster a more cooperative atmosphere with other teams.
>>
>>
>
>
--
"You know the world is going crazy when the best
rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy,
The Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is
accusing the US of arrogance, and Germany doesn't want
to go to war. And the 3 most powerful men in America
are named 'Bush', 'Dick', and 'Colon' (sic)".
-----Chris Rock
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Re: [PMC:Proposal] Opening up access to Excalibur/Sandbox
Posted by Paul Hammant <Pa...@thoughtworks.net>.
I'll vote against this : -1
Partial commit/vote rights? No thanks. Too many dynamics changing.
I'd vote in favor of Avalon-Commons though
- Paul
> I propose that we open up Avalon Excalibur/Sandbox to Avalon dependent
> projects in Apache land. The short list would be Cocoon, JAMES, and
> FOP (?). By opening up the CVS access on those projects, we can open
> up the support of those components to a wider set of developers.
>
> That will assure us that the code will be properly supported, while
> still allowing us to focus on the other issues. It will also help
> foster a more cooperative atmosphere with other teams.
>
>
--
http://www.thoughtworks.com -> The art of heavy lifting.
Home for many Agile-practicing, Open Source activists...
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Re: [PMC:Proposal] Opening up access to Excalibur/Sandbox
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Leo Simons wrote, On 23/04/2003 1.07:
> +1 to the concept (ie we should still vote in individuals).
+1 from here too.
As for voting individuals, I would prefere a more lax rule: since the
person is from an Apache project, and a project that uses Avalon, we
already have a certain degree of confidence.
If a person asks for it, we grant it, and just keep an eye on his first
commits. It may seem strange, but even only asking for it is a sanity
check. We can always revoke commit if we see bad behaviour, although I
doubt it.
> - Leo
>
> Berin Loritsch wrote:
>
>> I propose that we open up Avalon Excalibur/Sandbox to Avalon dependent
>> projects in Apache land. The short list would be Cocoon, JAMES, and
>> FOP (?). By opening up the CVS access on those projects, we can open
>> up the support of those components to a wider set of developers.
>>
>> That will assure us that the code will be properly supported, while
>> still allowing us to focus on the other issues. It will also help
>> foster a more cooperative atmosphere with other teams.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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Re: [PMC:Proposal] Opening up access to Excalibur/Sandbox
Posted by Leo Simons <le...@apache.org>.
+1 to the concept (ie we should still vote in individuals).
- Leo
Berin Loritsch wrote:
> I propose that we open up Avalon Excalibur/Sandbox to Avalon dependent
> projects in Apache land. The short list would be Cocoon, JAMES, and
> FOP (?). By opening up the CVS access on those projects, we can open
> up the support of those components to a wider set of developers.
>
> That will assure us that the code will be properly supported, while
> still allowing us to focus on the other issues. It will also help
> foster a more cooperative atmosphere with other teams.
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Re: [PMC:Proposal] Opening up access to Excalibur/Sandbox
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>.
Peter Royal wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 22, 2003, at 01:25 PM, Berin Loritsch wrote:
>
>> I propose that we open up Avalon Excalibur/Sandbox to Avalon dependent
>> projects in Apache land. The short list would be Cocoon, JAMES, and
>> FOP (?). By opening up the CVS access on those projects, we can open
>> up the support of those components to a wider set of developers.
>>
>> That will assure us that the code will be properly supported, while
>> still allowing us to focus on the other issues. It will also help
>> foster a more cooperative atmosphere with other teams.
>
>
> +1
>
> My only question is: I thought the board had something against
> compartmentalized commit access within a project?
That is usually for saying only developers XYZ within the project can
develop in that CVS repo.
IOW, If you are an Avalon developer you should have access to ALL
Avalon repositories.
--
"You know the world is going crazy when the best
rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy,
The Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is
accusing the US of arrogance, and Germany doesn't want
to go to war. And the 3 most powerful men in America
are named 'Bush', 'Dick', and 'Colon' (sic)".
-----Chris Rock
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Re: [PMC:Proposal] Opening up access to Excalibur/Sandbox
Posted by Peter Royal <pr...@apache.org>.
On Tuesday, April 22, 2003, at 01:25 PM, Berin Loritsch wrote:
> I propose that we open up Avalon Excalibur/Sandbox to Avalon dependent
> projects in Apache land. The short list would be Cocoon, JAMES, and
> FOP (?). By opening up the CVS access on those projects, we can open
> up the support of those components to a wider set of developers.
>
> That will assure us that the code will be properly supported, while
> still allowing us to focus on the other issues. It will also help
> foster a more cooperative atmosphere with other teams.
+1
My only question is: I thought the board had something against
compartmentalized commit access within a project?
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