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Posted to dev@lenya.apache.org by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org> on 2006/08/18 06:17:58 UTC
Re: [VOTE] Lenya Project Guidelines
Sorry for popping in to Lenya dev@ out-of-the-blue.
I don't read the lists. This month's board report drew
my attention. I see some misunderstandings about the
role of the Chair. I will try to help to clarify.
Michael Wechner wrote:
> Thorsten Scherler wrote:
> >Michael Wechner escribi??:
> >>Thorsten Scherler wrote:
[ snip ]
> >>- Re the PMC chair: What means "the chair has the power to establish rules
> >>and procedures"? Isn't that the role of the PMC itself?! And what means
> >>"including of the PMC itself"? Hmm?
The PMC is "is tasked with the creation of a set of
bylaws intended to encourage open development and
increased participation".
http://lenya.apache.org/resolution.html
However the above quote is also correct. It is ultimately
the chair's responsibility.
The position of the chair is clearly defined in these
top-level documents. Specifically it is in the ASF Bylaws
and you cannot go against that.
See http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#pmc
Be sure to follow all of the links. Specifically the
ASF Bylaws link and the two email links in paragraph #4
where Dirk and Greg clearly explain the exact issues that
Michi is raising. There is no point me try to paraphrase
or quote from them.
It sounds like people here have not understood those documents.
> >The chair is the ASF officer in charge (like a chairman of a board of a
> >company). She has the last word and can overrule the pmc.
>
> I am -1 on this. What would be agreeable to me is that if the PMC is
> undecisive which means for instance 3 versus 3 then the PMC chair can decide.
>
> >Please see
> >http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#pmc for more detailed
> >explanation.
> >
> >>- I think the Quartely reports need to be approved by the PMC before
> >>sending to the board
> >
> >Yes I think this is a good idea, but why didn't you raised before.
>
> I raised it several times on the PMC mailing list
The quarterly report is only between the chair and the
board. The PMC don't need to "approve" it.
See paragraph #3 at http://www.apache.org/dev/pmc.html#chair
> >Now it will have to wait till after the vote
> >
> >>- Electing PMC members: I think the general rule should be that
> >>committers are not PMC members from the very beginning when they become
> >>committers.
> >
> >You can raise this later.
>
> I also raised this several times in discussion before
Each PMC needs to decide how they do this. Some have
Committers == PMC members, others don't.
> >>- Voting: Conensus means to me that everyone agrees or do I
> >>misunderstand consesus?
> >
> >No, if you really mean *everyone* (like in all active committer have to
> >vote), that is "Unanimous consensus".
> >
> >>- Voting: Why the term lazy majority and not just majority?
> >
> >This points out that not all pmc member have to vote.
> >
> >>- Veto: why does the pmc chair has the power to decide if a veto is
> >>valid or not
> >
> >it comes with the role. see above link:
> >"...has the power to establish rules and procedures for the day to day
> >management of the communities for which the PMC is responsible..."
>
> again, I am -1 on this, because I do not understand why the PMC chair should
> have so much power in this type of community as Lenya is
Someone needs to be able to break a deadlock.
Look at it rather as the PMC chair is the poor bugger
that needs to do the administrative stuff, than as
a person with power. They had better use it wisely.
-David
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Re: [VOTE] Lenya Project Guidelines
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Michael Wechner wrote:
> David Crossley wrote:
> >Michael Wechner wrote:
> >>
> >>but I think it should be approved by the PMC (see our bad at Lenya
> >>re wrong statements ...) and maybe the ASF wants to consider that this
> >>would be a good thing and I think it actually would help the PMC chair
> >>for his/her own good.
> >
> >Take me for example at Apache Forrest. I run a draft
> >by our private at f.a.o list about a week before it is due,
> >asking if i have missed anything or should change anything.
> >But it still does not need to be approved by the PMC. It is
> >my report.
>
> do you want it to be your report? And if so, why?
Many reasons: Because it is the job of the "chair".
Because i agree with the ASF that it should be this way.
Because i can see that otherwise an impasse could be reached.
Because the board cannot deal with a whole committee.
There are many other reasons in those documents
referred to earlier. Some major reasons are listed here:
http://www.apache.org/foundation/faq.html#why-are-PMC-chairs-officers
If you have issues with the defined job, then please
take it up with the ASF membership.
-David
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Re: [VOTE] Lenya Project Guidelines
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.com>.
David Crossley wrote:
>
>>but I think it should be approved by the PMC (see our bad at Lenya
>>re wrong statements ...) and maybe the ASF wants to consider that this
>>would be a good thing and I think it actually would help the PMC chair
>>for his/her own good.
>>
>>
>
>Take me for example at Apache Forrest. I run a draft
>by our private at f.a.o list about a week before it is due,
>asking if i have missed anything or should change anything.
>But it still does not need to be approved by the PMC. It is
>my report.
>
>
do you want it to be your report? And if so, why?
Michi
>-David
>
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>
>
>
>
--
Michael Wechner
Wyona - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com http://lenya.apache.org
michael.wechner@wyona.com michi@apache.org
+41 44 272 91 61
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Re: [VOTE] Lenya Project Guidelines
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Michael Wechner wrote:
> David Crossley wrote:
>
> well, I am happy to aceept that, but I think it's not good at all, because
> I think the PMC chair has too much conflicts of interests ...
It is a hard job to balance those.
> >The quarterly report is only between the chair and the
> >board. The PMC don't need to "approve" it.
> >See paragraph #3 at http://www.apache.org/dev/pmc.html#chair
>
> but I think it should be approved by the PMC (see our bad at Lenya
> re wrong statements ...) and maybe the ASF wants to consider that this
> would be a good thing and I think it actually would help the PMC chair
> for his/her own good.
Take me for example at Apache Forrest. I run a draft
by our private at f.a.o list about a week before it is due,
asking if i have missed anything or should change anything.
But it still does not need to be approved by the PMC. It is
my report.
-David
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Re: [VOTE] Lenya Project Guidelines
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.com>.
David Crossley wrote:
>Sorry for popping in to Lenya dev@ out-of-the-blue.
>I don't read the lists. This month's board report drew
>my attention. I see some misunderstandings about the
>role of the Chair. I will try to help to clarify.
>
>Michael Wechner wrote:
>
>
>>Thorsten Scherler wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Michael Wechner escribi??:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Thorsten Scherler wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>
>[ snip ]
>
>
>
>>>>- Re the PMC chair: What means "the chair has the power to establish rules
>>>>and procedures"? Isn't that the role of the PMC itself?! And what means
>>>>"including of the PMC itself"? Hmm?
>>>>
>>>>
>
>The PMC is "is tasked with the creation of a set of
>bylaws intended to encourage open development and
>increased participation".
>http://lenya.apache.org/resolution.html
>
>However the above quote is also correct. It is ultimately
>the chair's responsibility.
>
>The position of the chair is clearly defined in these
>top-level documents. Specifically it is in the ASF Bylaws
>and you cannot go against that.
>See http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#pmc
>Be sure to follow all of the links. Specifically the
>ASF Bylaws link and the two email links in paragraph #4
>where Dirk and Greg clearly explain the exact issues that
>Michi is raising. There is no point me try to paraphrase
>or quote from them.
>
>
well, I am happy to aceept that, but I think it's not good at all, because
I think the PMC chair has too much conflicts of interests ...
>It sounds like people here have not understood those documents.
>
>
I guess people didn't read those documents (myself included) ...
>
>
>>>The chair is the ASF officer in charge (like a chairman of a board of a
>>>company). She has the last word and can overrule the pmc.
>>>
>>>
>>I am -1 on this. What would be agreeable to me is that if the PMC is
>>undecisive which means for instance 3 versus 3 then the PMC chair can decide.
>>
>>
>>
>>>Please see
>>>http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#pmc for more detailed
>>>explanation.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>- I think the Quartely reports need to be approved by the PMC before
>>>>sending to the board
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Yes I think this is a good idea, but why didn't you raised before.
>>>
>>>
>>I raised it several times on the PMC mailing list
>>
>>
>
>The quarterly report is only between the chair and the
>board. The PMC don't need to "approve" it.
>See paragraph #3 at http://www.apache.org/dev/pmc.html#chair
>
>
but I think it should be approved by the PMC (see our bad at Lenya
re wrong statements ...) and maybe the ASF wants to consider that this
would be a good thing and I think it actually would help the PMC chair
for his/her
own good.
>
>
>>>Now it will have to wait till after the vote
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>- Electing PMC members: I think the general rule should be that
>>>>committers are not PMC members from the very beginning when they become
>>>>committers.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>You can raise this later.
>>>
>>>
>>I also raised this several times in discussion before
>>
>>
>
>Each PMC needs to decide how they do this. Some have
>Committers == PMC members, others don't.
>
>
I think committers should become PMC members in the "long" run, but
shouldn't
be PMC members by default
>
>
>>>>- Voting: Conensus means to me that everyone agrees or do I
>>>>misunderstand consesus?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>No, if you really mean *everyone* (like in all active committer have to
>>>vote), that is "Unanimous consensus".
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>- Voting: Why the term lazy majority and not just majority?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>This points out that not all pmc member have to vote.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>- Veto: why does the pmc chair has the power to decide if a veto is
>>>>valid or not
>>>>
>>>>
>>>it comes with the role. see above link:
>>>"...has the power to establish rules and procedures for the day to day
>>>management of the communities for which the PMC is responsible..."
>>>
>>>
>>again, I am -1 on this, because I do not understand why the PMC chair should
>>have so much power in this type of community as Lenya is
>>
>>
>
>Someone needs to be able to break a deadlock.
>
>
agreed and I even said so within another email
Michi
--
Michael Wechner
Wyona - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com http://lenya.apache.org
michael.wechner@wyona.com michi@apache.org
+41 44 272 91 61
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