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Posted to site-cvs@jakarta.apache.org by jo...@apache.org on 2001/04/26 21:42:01 UTC
cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs/site/pmc 01-04-22-meeting-irclog.xml
jon 01/04/26 12:42:00
Added: docs/site/pmc 01-04-22-meeting-irclog.html
xdocs/site/pmc 01-04-22-meeting-irclog.xml
Log:
irc log meeting notes
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Index: 01-04-22-meeting-irclog.html
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<a name="04-22-01 IRC Log from PMC Meeting"><strong>04-22-01 IRC Log from PMC Meeting</strong></a>
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<blockquote>
<p>
Below is the IRC log from the meeting on 04-22-01 held over IRC.
</p>
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<td bgcolor="#023264" width="1" height="1"><img src="/images/void.gif" width="1" height="1" vspace="0" hspace="0" border="0"/></td>
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<td bgcolor="#023264" width="1" height="1"><img src="/images/void.gif" width="1" height="1" vspace="0" hspace="0" border="0"/></td>
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<td bgcolor="#ffffff"><pre>
1:59:01 PM: <sam> jon: log running?
1:59:20 PM: <jon> of course.
1:59:43 PM: <cgu> I thought it was soccer... The goal is a lot bigger.
1:59:49 PM: <cgu> Room for a server farm.
1:59:55 PM: <sam> We'll see if we get as many people as last year.
2:00:13 PM: <sam> ceki: it is roller hockey. Game is in 2.5 hours.
2:00:27 PM: <sam> s/year/week/
2:00:50 PM: *** dlh (+dianeh@shell.tsoft.com) joined #jakarta
2:00:59 PM: <sam> Hi diane!
2:01:06 PM: <cgu> sam: anything else?
2:01:18 PM: <dlh> Hideeho -- did I miss it?
2:01:34 PM: <sam> ceki: proposal for cvs layout & build procedures
2:01:47 PM: <cgu> Ah!
2:01:51 PM: <sam> diane: not started yet. Ceki has to leave early.
2:02:18 PM: <dlh> Oh good -- for a minute there I thought maybe we
were doing the off-by-one thing again :)
2:02:22 PM: <cgu> The directory layout of a project is very closely
related to
2:02:33 PM: <cgu> it's build script.
2:02:59 PM: <cgu> The dirlayout document will need a lot of work toget right.
2:03:17 PM: <cgu> You input is very much needed.
2:03:48 PM: *** Pete (+Pete@d354-ps0-mel.alphalink.com.au) joined #jakarta
2:03:52 PM: <Pete> hiho
2:03:57 PM: <cgu> The binary CVS discussion did not lead to a
white/black conclusion.
2:04:07 PM: <cgu> Hi Pete! Good morning...
2:04:12 PM: <Pete> morning ;)
2:04:24 PM: <Pete> we started yet - or is time for a tea run?
2:04:27 PM: <geir> good morning!
2:04:35 PM: <geir> tea and that yeast stuff... :)
2:04:42 PM: <cgu> I have to leave in 5 minutes.
2:04:52 PM: <Pete> doh
2:04:59 PM: <Pete> mmm yeast stuff
2:05:27 PM: <geir> if Homer Simpson lived in Austrailia...
2:05:38 PM: <sam> Pete: I've enjoyed the discussion on avalon ;-)
2:05:52 PM: <cgu> Otherwise, I was complaining about the seemingly
needless copying going in build scripts.
2:06:27 PM: <sam> Ceki: unless filtering is used, no copying should
be necessary.
2:07:09 PM: <Pete> sam: yer? what do you mean? ;)
2:07:11 PM: <cgu> That seems reasonable to me too.
2:09:15 PM: <dlh> Hey Pete -- while Sam and Ceki discuss CVS and
builds, can I ask you, do you know much about IRC?
2:09:44 PM: <Pete> not really - no - sorry ;)
2:10:14 PM: <cgu> In T4 for example, the contents of build/** are
mostly dynamically generated and then
2:10:47 PM: <cgu> copied to dist/** as is. I don't want to pick on
T4. It's just an example
2:10:55 PM: <cgu> I am aware of.
2:11:22 PM: <sam> Strunk and White: omit needless copies. ;-)
2:12:09 PM: <cgu> Nothing tragic, it all works but seems redundant
to me. No needless white space, OK.
2:12:46 PM: <sam> [I guess that didn't translate well; see
http://www.strunkandwhite.com/ ]
2:13:04 PM: <Pete> cgu: I believe Avalon does the same for a few
things (generates docs to build and then copies em round for
dist/local-docs)
2:14:53 PM: <sam> 2115 GMT, and significantly less of a quorum that last week.
2:15:17 PM: <cgu> Hmm, ok. Why not generate into dist/** and zip or tar that?
2:15:42 PM: <cgu> Shall we let Sam begin?
2:16:19 PM: <sam> Ceki - if you need to run, do what you have to do...
2:16:28 PM: <dlh> Want me to send a quick reminder mail to the pmc list?
2:16:33 PM: <Pete> The Elements of Style: What you don't think much
of our (my?) command of the ENglish language? ;)
2:16:51 PM: <cgu> I am actually using the computer of a friend in
his beedroom. It's
2:17:15 PM: <cgu> 11:15PM here. He'll tell me when I have to stop.
2:17:15 PM: <sam> Pete: you definately do not follow the dictim of
"omit needless words".
2:17:26 PM: <sam> ;-)
2:17:28 PM: <Pete> cgu: reasoning is that historically they were
further manipulated, besides which they are copied to multiple places..
They possibly could be removed bnow though ;)
2:17:48 PM: <cgu> Good to hear.
2:18:13 PM: <sam> Ted: still here?
2:18:26 PM: <Pete> sam: ;)
2:19:14 PM: <Ted> Yep
2:19:27 PM: <sam> 1.1 Ted: reformat the rules for
revolutionaries document from an email to a bylaw
2:19:36 PM: <Ted> Done.
2:19:47 PM: <cgu> Have to leave now.
2:20:07 PM: <Pete> seeya ;/
2:20:14 PM: <sam> Ceki: ok, later!
2:20:19 PM: <sam> Ted: URL?
2:20:22 PM: <cgu> +1 on the rules for revs. Bye now.
2:20:24 PM: <Ted>
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/proposal.html#decisions/branches
2:20:33 PM: *** cgu has signed off (Leaving)
2:21:02 PM: <sam> Ted: +1
2:21:48 PM: <Pete> Is there a summary/diff of changes since last time?
2:22:24 PM: <Ted> Everything is either in strike-out or maroon font
2:22:45 PM: <Ted> For the R4R, this is the only time
2:22:49 PM: <Ted> except for James' original
2:23:00 PM: *** dfs (-dfs@24.180.134.184) joined #jakarta
2:23:55 PM: <Pete> duh me - right okay looks good +1
2:24:24 PM: <geir> I have a specific issue re the rules for revs,
but this may not be the right place
2:24:34 PM: <sam> Geir: go ahead
2:25:02 PM: <geir> in the case of commons, where the 'main cvs' is a
set of subprojects in their own right, and we have the 'sandbox'
2:25:32 PM: <geir> to get to the point :
2:25:46 PM: <geir> we already have in commons the basis of R for R
because anyone can go start something in the sandbox
2:26:02 PM: <geir> and in the main cvs components themsevles, I
think that R for R should apply as well
2:26:18 PM: <geir> so getting to the point :) :
2:26:25 PM: <geir> can it be something that a subproject can modify?
2:26:38 PM: <geir> because it would be 'Jakarta policy'
2:26:50 PM: <geir> w/ no leeway for the projects as needs or situations dictate
2:27:00 PM: <geir> (done)
2:27:47 PM: <Pete> Lots of things are "Jakarta" policy that projects ignore ;)
2:27:50 PM: <geir> the point is subtle, and prollie lost on anyone
not involved in commons
2:27:58 PM: <sam> Outside of legal issues (including ownership of
name, etc), I see little that a subproject can't tweak.
2:28:09 PM: <geir> ok. I am happy to leave it there
2:28:27 PM: <sam> 1.2 Ted: revise bylaws
2:28:48 PM: <Ted> Same place, see outer loop.
2:29:55 PM: <sam> Ted: is the proposal ready for a vote/adoption?
2:30:08 PM: <Ted> Sure.
2:31:04 PM: <geir> I assume we can read and discuss over the next month?
2:31:27 PM: <sam> OK, +1 here. Represents a (significant, IMHO)
improvement and can always be ammended.
2:31:36 PM: <sam> Geir: how much longer does it need to be posted? ;-)
2:31:55 PM: <geir> how long has it been done?
2:32:05 PM: <geir> sorry - I didn't start looking at it until now
2:32:07 PM: <Pete> +1 on it but I think that in the future the r4r needs to be expanded ;)
2:32:10 PM: <Ted> Oh, 3 months or so.
2:32:13 PM: <geir> ah
2:32:17 PM: <geir> :)
2:32:26 PM: <geir> I thought you were still working on it.
2:35:26 PM: <sam> Hmmm. I'm not sure we have enough of a quorum to ammend the bylaws.
2:36:09 PM: <sam> And people seem to be uncharacteristically quiet today....
2:36:18 PM: <geir> (reading...)
2:36:19 PM: <Pete> whos here but not here exactly?
2:36:41 PM: <dfs> me
2:37:08 PM: <dfs> sorry, today had some unexpected surprises (sorry for being late)
2:38:07 PM: <dlh> I'm here --- looking thru Ted's stuff (hadn't
seen the color-coded version before...)
2:38:07 PM: <Pete> check out this feature request for ant:
2:38:11 PM: <Pete> I think it'd be useful to generate Makefiles
from build.xml ... The reasons
2:38:17 PM: <Pete> given for the creation of Ant had to do with
pitfalls of writing Makefiles.
2:38:23 PM: <Pete> Perhaps one generated from build.xml would remove
that problem. Pulling up a JVM
2:38:27 PM: <Pete> to run Ant is simply too slow at times.
2:39:31 PM: <sam> LOL...First thing people say about Ant is how
much faster it is when compiling Java code.
2:40:11 PM: <Pete> ;)
2:40:20 PM: <dlh> I was thinking of pointing him to imake, but I
thought that'd be cruel :)
2:40:28 PM: <Pete> hehe
2:40:32 PM: <sam> 1.3 Ceki: proposal for cvs layout & build procedures (done)
2:40:43 PM: <sam> 1.4 Sam: pmc election process
2:41:01 PM: <sam> I don't have anything prepared....are people
aware of what was recently done by/to the XML PMC?
2:41:17 PM: <geir> no
2:41:34 PM: <geir> but I assume it has been posted for 3 months
2:41:41 PM: <Pete> You mean the it go poof phenomenon?
2:42:58 PM: <sam> The XML PMC was disbanded. An election was held on general@xml.
2:43:14 PM: <sam> Votes were secret - counted by the board. Five were selected.
2:43:36 PM: <sam> Essentially, it was the equivalent of a complete re-election.
2:44:10 PM: <dlh> Re: Ted's stuff -- there's a sentence where he
says "tactic approval" -- I suspect he meant "tacit approval" (it's in
the Note wrt "Lazy", under Voting).
2:44:10 PM: <sam> Right now PMC members are until resignation or
being kicked out. Should everybody be subject to reelection?
2:44:42 PM: <Ted> Yes, tacit.
2:45:01 PM: <geir> there's plenty of upside to that, but downside is
total loss of institutional memory, so to speak
2:45:11 PM: <geir> if a lot of turnover
2:45:36 PM: <Pete> I think reelection is a nice aim - however I
assume that in most cases the same people will sit year after year
(unless they abandon their projects).
2:45:41 PM: <sam> Downside is theoretical. The ASF board has an
annual relection. When the dust settled, there was a diff of -2/+2.
2:45:57 PM: <geir> yes, theoretical - 'if'
2:46:38 PM: <sam> One downside is potential lack of
representation...e.g., three Tomcat guys and noone interested in ecs.
2:46:56 PM: <geir> what about the chair being elected from sitting members?
2:47:30 PM: <sam> We had a significant discussion about
representation in the XML PMC. I thought it important. Scott thought
it important and 1-1. Others thought it was UNimportant.
2:48:03 PM: <sam> Re: 1-1, I used avalon as an example. Splitting
into multiple CVSes with no new committers does not imply the need for
more representatives.
2:48:05 PM: <Pete> it would be nice if every project could
elect/nominate/whatever a champion. The problem will then be that some
projects get over-represented with respect to how much dev goes on at
jakarta.
2:48:27 PM: <sam> Pete: define project. How many votes does Avalon
get? Tomcat? Servletapi?
2:48:45 PM: <Pete> avalon 1
2:48:59 PM: <Pete> tomcat+servlet api: 1
2:49:10 PM: <Pete> (I assume servlet api part of tomcat)
2:49:14 PM: <sam> The XML pmc decided on 1 committer one vote. The
ASF board does one member one vote.
2:49:34 PM: <Pete> 1 committer one vote could work aswell
2:49:37 PM: <sam> Pete: tomcat3/4 one vote! I'd like to see that ;-)
2:50:09 PM: <geir> it's a tomcat committer a tomcat committer?
2:50:16 PM: <geir> s/it's/isn't/
2:50:43 PM: <Pete> geir: huh?
2:50:52 PM: <Pete> sam: could be fun huh? ;)
2:51:10 PM: <geir> I thought sam was saying that if you are a
committer in tomcat3 and tomcat4, you only get 1
2:51:20 PM: <geir> but I didn't think there was a distinction
2:51:22 PM: <sam> Geir: Tomcat 4 was a revolution. Nearly a bloody one at that.
2:51:44 PM: <geir> I remember the mess - so the committers are segmented?
2:53:42 PM: <sam> Geir, doesn't matter - the point is that however
you try to group projects, people will complain. ;-)
2:54:31 PM: <Pete> may I add people will complain regardless of what we do ;)
2:54:32 PM: <sam> My thoughts at this point is to model after the
ASF board and XML PMC - annual reelections, predetermined number of
seats (smaller than today), and 1 committer one vote.
2:55:02 PM: <sam> Pete: ;-)
2:55:18 PM: <dfs> makes sense
2:55:37 PM: <Pete> I like aswell
2:55:57 PM: <geir> q: why not 1 per project?
2:56:16 PM: <dfs> one vote or one seat?
2:56:27 PM: <geir> seat
2:56:38 PM: <geir> never mind
2:56:39 PM: <Pete> some projects have 10 active committers, others
have 1 - should they get equal representation?
2:56:45 PM: <geir> never mind
2:56:46 PM: <dfs> seems like it would get too big
2:58:35 PM: <geir> so where are we?
2:58:51 PM: <sam> OK, we have time to think about this for a bit.
Next election should probably coincide with the end of my term.
2:59:01 PM: <sam> 3.1 Consistent mailing list policies (moderation, etc)
2:59:55 PM: <sam> Are people happy or unhappy with the current
moderators or lack thereof?
3:00:05 PM: <Pete> I think consistent naming should be used and
moderation policies.
3:00:14 PM: <Pete> we need a moderator for pmc list ;)
3:00:41 PM: <Ted> People often ask about newsgroups as an alternative
3:00:55 PM: <geir> why?
3:01:59 PM: <Ted> Traffic -- downloading all the messages.
3:03:13 PM: <sam> My preference would be a general policy with
subprojects being able to tailor. Trouble is that now we can't tell if
what we have is a tailor or an accident. ;-)
3:04:25 PM: <sam> I guess the suggestion is that all lists be open
only to subscribers with the rest moderated, with the PMC and
announcements lists being open and strictly moderated respectively.
3:04:25 PM: <sam> OK?
3:05:00 PM: <Pete> sounds good to me
3:05:04 PM: <Pete> ie +1
3:05:10 PM: <geir> why not moderate pmc as well?
3:06:03 PM: <sam> Scenario: someone outside the PMC wants to report
a security bug in Tomcat or GPL code in commons...
3:06:42 PM: <geir> ... and? doesn't a moderator just let that go through?
3:06:44 PM: <Pete> time thing? ie we can't wait till moderator tags it as go?
3:06:56 PM: <geir> Scenario : www.bigguns.com....
3:07:09 PM: <geir> ... keeps the spam out...
3:07:18 PM: <sam> Moderators have been known to introduce
significant delays... ;-)
3:07:41 PM: <geir> anyway that duty can be shared?
3:08:01 PM: <sam> Has spam been a problem on the PMC list. I
interpreted Pete's first comment to be that we should moderate the
SUBSCRIBERS. ;-)
3:08:10 PM: <geir> :)
3:09:08 PM: <Pete> actually I was talking about spam but I guess it
is only one list so ... ;)
3:09:45 PM: <sam> If someone wants to volunteer to moderate the
PMC, let me know. Any more new business? Geir?
3:10:05 PM: <geir> yes
3:10:14 PM: <geir> thanks - I didn't read my email yet :)
3:10:27 PM: <geir> 1) Anyone mind if I put a 'news' sidebar on the
jakarta homepage?
3:10:33 PM: <geir> the news is currently hidden.
3:11:08 PM: <geir> 2) Any interest for or against in putting
together a 'jakarta job board' for people with experience with jakarta
'technologies'?
3:11:31 PM: <geir> for example, Fedor from Turbine/Vel land is
looking for a job, and has tremendous Turbine / Vel experience....
3:11:34 PM: <Pete> Essentials
3:11:44 PM: <geir> sorry?
3:11:47 PM: <Pete> Essentials?news not enough?
3:11:53 PM: <Pete> Essentials/news not enough?
3:11:55 PM: <Pete> bleh
3:11:57 PM: <Pete> ;)
3:12:01 PM: <geir> the news is hidden behind a link.
3:12:10 PM: <geir> it might be nice to be able to glance at it for new things.
3:12:29 PM: <Pete> oh - you mean dynamically generate sidebar for news items?
3:12:51 PM: <geir> dynamic - when the news is updated.... take the
top three and put the headline or soething with a link
3:12:59 PM: <geir> (small, on the side)
3:12:59 PM: <Pete> sounds good to me
3:13:38 PM: <sam> Personally, I'd flip it. News is the majority with links to the rest.
3:13:52 PM: <sam> Example of a good site (IMHO): http://www.php.net
3:13:52 PM: <Ted> -
3:13:56 PM: <Ted> -
3:13:57 PM: <Pete> job board sounds ok to me - one issue is we don't
want for it to seem like it is apache sanctioned. ie just because Bob
claims he can do X with technology Y in Apache land
3:14:08 PM: <geir> I didn't want to rock that boat too hard, re the
front page. dind't know if there was history.
3:14:26 PM: <geir> I'll try something and then we can unwind if it doesn't create joy...
3:14:35 PM: *** Ted has signed off ()
3:14:36 PM: <geir> Pete : that was my worry too
3:15:13 PM: <sam> Geir: our problem is generally not enough people
wanting to do things, not people wanting to keep things as they are.
3:15:18 PM: <Pete> I think it would be good to have default front
page news if thats what you are getting at
3:15:24 PM: *** Ted (-ted@roc-24-24-50-8.rochester.rr.com) joined #jakarta
3:15:32 PM: <Pete> rehi ;)
3:15:54 PM: <geir> well, there are strange threads of history sometimes :)
3:16:10 PM: <geir> so I will just do it and apologize later :)
3:16:29 PM: <Pete> works for me ;)
3:16:39 PM: <sam> Jon: still here?
3:16:52 PM: *** Received CTCP "TIME" from Pete
3:17:10 PM: <sam> If anybody has strong opinions on this subject
(web site), it would be jon.
3:17:46 PM: <geir> yes, but the apologize later approach gets points with him :)
3:18:23 PM: <geir> I can ask him later too, so we don't hold this up
3:18:26 PM: <dlh> I like Geir's idea -- I don't click on the News
link all that often, but I'd probably read some little "headlines"
section (then click on anything that intrigued me)
3:18:40 PM: <sam> Subproject status? I'd suggest everyone simply post.
3:19:02 PM: <dlh> Post where?
3:19:13 PM: <sam> Alexandria - three competing/cooperating
proposals. Trying to converge on a single DTD. Turbine continues to
frustrate Gump.
3:19:26 PM: <sam> Diane: here.
3:20:19 PM: <Pete> James: A new committer adding in all sorts of
features (NNTP, allowing multiple protocol handlers etc). There is a few
issues with remoteManagement but other than that all is well
3:21:47 PM: <geir> Velocity : had the v1.0 release April 2, v1.0.1
bugfix release April 23, things are going very well.
3:21:53 PM: <Ted> Taglibs: very busy. 4 new releases. 3 new proposals.
3:22:07 PM: <dlh> Ant - Stefan's voting for Ant2 has completed, so
I expect a call for proposals will be coming soon. A 1.4 release is
planned as well -- probably sometime around June. The Antidote GUI has
several new committers and was moved into a separate area in CVS.
3:22:58 PM: <geir> JMeter : just getting into it. Introduced myself
to the main committers, they understand what I am doing. They had an
alpha release at the end of March. I see a slow but steady stream of
activity.
3:23:00 PM: <Pete> Avalon: Framework and Basic Components going beta
to match Cocoon. Aim is for a release start of next month -
realistically halfway through next month. Phoenix (application server)
has recently got JMX managemtn added - which almost brings it to "ready"
in my book (still misses proper logging messages)
3:24:18 PM: <geir> ted - commons?
3:24:33 PM: <Ted> (You were doing that for me, Geir)
3:24:58 PM: <geir> ah. I am ready, but figured if you were here :)
3:25:52 PM: <geir> Commons : booming in waves :) Have our first
released component, the 'Cactus' J2EE unit testing component. Was
called J2EEUnit when on sourceforge. Current in beta, expecting a May 1
1.0 release I think.
3:26:29 PM: <sam> OK, I'll ask on the PMC list for the remainder.
3:26:55 PM: <geir> (I had more, but will post to list...)
3:27:07 PM: <sam> Geir: go ahead then...
3:27:18 PM: <sam> (I need to leave in about 20 minutes)
3:27:23 PM: <geir> I already deleted it from buffer... will post.
3:27:25 PM: <geir> :)
3:27:27 PM: <geir> sorry
3:27:45 PM: <geir> go on
3:28:06 PM: <sam> I don't know how to handle James's quasi-emeritus status.
3:28:13 PM: <sam> Anybody got any ideas?
3:28:22 PM: <geir> it can't be modeled after the apache emeritus?
3:29:50 PM: <sam> OK will do. (It's easier to get forgiveness than permission...)
3:30:18 PM: <geir> I was asking more than suggesting :)
3:30:44 PM: <geir> I was wondering what the downside would be - I don'
3:30:49 PM: <geir> t understand all the implications.
3:31:47 PM: <sam> I was a frequent critic of the previous PMC, and
went head to head with JDD on a number of occasions. I feel a bit
uncomfortable unilaterally moving him off the active list.
3:32:24 PM: <geir> ok. didn't he request it?
3:33:10 PM: <Pete> we can always postpone it to next meeting when we
have more peeps here. I don't see any problem with what you suggest but
JDD doesn't like me much so ... ;)
3:33:30 PM: <sam> He said "quasi" or some such. But the ASF allows
virtually instant reinstatement upon requests.
3:34:16 PM: <sam> Pete: FYI - JDD and I seem to disagree often on
mailing lists, but we seek each other out whenever we can in person.
It's an odd relationship.
3:34:58 PM: <Pete> sam: ;)
3:35:16 PM: <sam> OK, I'll touch bases with JDD and then update the web site.
3:35:39 PM: <sam> Last item on the agenda: schedule for next meeting.
3:36:20 PM: <Pete> I would prefer the alternate times but am okay
with this one. 7am is muuuuch better than 6am ;)
3:36:51 PM: <sam> I'm on vacation 14-18 of May. 7th is good for
me, and 21 may be ok.
3:37:29 PM: <geir> I am open at the moment. default +1
3:38:17 PM: <geir> want to hash this out on the list?
3:38:31 PM: <geir> this is glacial in velocity...
3:38:48 PM: <sam> Suggestion: 21 May, 0400 GMT.
3:38:58 PM: <dlh> Anytime is usually fine with me, though I'd
prefer either the morning or the evening, rather than the middle of the
day.
3:39:20 PM: <sam> (Sunday night in California, noon in Melbourne)
3:39:46 PM: <sam> 2100 California (prev day)
3:39:46 PM: <sam> 0000 NY
3:39:46 PM: <sam> 0400 GMT
3:39:46 PM: <sam> 0600 Zurich
3:39:46 PM: <sam> 1200 Melbourne
3:40:26 PM: <sam> And next month, we will rotate to 2100 GMT. OK?
3:40:27 PM: <geir> midnight on a sunday? ok by me
3:40:33 PM: <dlh> Sounds good to me.
3:40:39 PM: <Ted> +1
3:41:02 PM: <Pete> +1
3:41:34 PM: <dfs> +1
3:41:37 PM: <sam> OK, I move to adjourn the meeting.
3:41:43 PM: <sam> Seconds?
3:41:49 PM: <geir> second :)
3:41:52 PM: <dlh> second
3:41:54 PM: <dfs> i'm sorry today didn't turn out to be a good day
for me. i'll send an update and some other comments to the list.
3:41:55 PM: <dfs> second
3:42:25 PM: <geir> ok. gotta scoot. take care.
3:42:31 PM: <Pete> cheerio
3:42:33 PM: *** geir has signed off ()
3:42:35 PM: <sam> Later...
3:42:39 PM: *** Ted has signed off ()
3:42:51 PM: <dlh> Bye
3:42:52 PM: <Pete> bye ;)
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1.1 jakarta-site2/xdocs/site/pmc/01-04-22-meeting-irclog.xml
Index: 01-04-22-meeting-irclog.xml
===================================================================
<?xml version="1.0"?>
<document>
<properties>
<author email="jon@latchkey.com">Jon S. Stevens</author>
<title>04-22-01 IRC Log from PMC Meeting</title>
</properties>
<body>
<section name="04-22-01 IRC Log from PMC Meeting">
<p>
Below is the IRC log from the meeting on 04-22-01 held over IRC.
</p>
<source><![CDATA[
1:59:01 PM: <sam> jon: log running?
1:59:20 PM: <jon> of course.
1:59:43 PM: <cgu> I thought it was soccer... The goal is a lot bigger.
1:59:49 PM: <cgu> Room for a server farm.
1:59:55 PM: <sam> We'll see if we get as many people as last year.
2:00:13 PM: <sam> ceki: it is roller hockey. Game is in 2.5 hours.
2:00:27 PM: <sam> s/year/week/
2:00:50 PM: *** dlh (+dianeh@shell.tsoft.com) joined #jakarta
2:00:59 PM: <sam> Hi diane!
2:01:06 PM: <cgu> sam: anything else?
2:01:18 PM: <dlh> Hideeho -- did I miss it?
2:01:34 PM: <sam> ceki: proposal for cvs layout & build procedures
2:01:47 PM: <cgu> Ah!
2:01:51 PM: <sam> diane: not started yet. Ceki has to leave early.
2:02:18 PM: <dlh> Oh good -- for a minute there I thought maybe we
were doing the off-by-one thing again :)
2:02:22 PM: <cgu> The directory layout of a project is very closely
related to
2:02:33 PM: <cgu> it's build script.
2:02:59 PM: <cgu> The dirlayout document will need a lot of work toget right.
2:03:17 PM: <cgu> You input is very much needed.
2:03:48 PM: *** Pete (+Pete@d354-ps0-mel.alphalink.com.au) joined #jakarta
2:03:52 PM: <Pete> hiho
2:03:57 PM: <cgu> The binary CVS discussion did not lead to a
white/black conclusion.
2:04:07 PM: <cgu> Hi Pete! Good morning...
2:04:12 PM: <Pete> morning ;)
2:04:24 PM: <Pete> we started yet - or is time for a tea run?
2:04:27 PM: <geir> good morning!
2:04:35 PM: <geir> tea and that yeast stuff... :)
2:04:42 PM: <cgu> I have to leave in 5 minutes.
2:04:52 PM: <Pete> doh
2:04:59 PM: <Pete> mmm yeast stuff
2:05:27 PM: <geir> if Homer Simpson lived in Austrailia...
2:05:38 PM: <sam> Pete: I've enjoyed the discussion on avalon ;-)
2:05:52 PM: <cgu> Otherwise, I was complaining about the seemingly
needless copying going in build scripts.
2:06:27 PM: <sam> Ceki: unless filtering is used, no copying should
be necessary.
2:07:09 PM: <Pete> sam: yer? what do you mean? ;)
2:07:11 PM: <cgu> That seems reasonable to me too.
2:09:15 PM: <dlh> Hey Pete -- while Sam and Ceki discuss CVS and
builds, can I ask you, do you know much about IRC?
2:09:44 PM: <Pete> not really - no - sorry ;)
2:10:14 PM: <cgu> In T4 for example, the contents of build/** are
mostly dynamically generated and then
2:10:47 PM: <cgu> copied to dist/** as is. I don't want to pick on
T4. It's just an example
2:10:55 PM: <cgu> I am aware of.
2:11:22 PM: <sam> Strunk and White: omit needless copies. ;-)
2:12:09 PM: <cgu> Nothing tragic, it all works but seems redundant
to me. No needless white space, OK.
2:12:46 PM: <sam> [I guess that didn't translate well; see
http://www.strunkandwhite.com/ ]
2:13:04 PM: <Pete> cgu: I believe Avalon does the same for a few
things (generates docs to build and then copies em round for
dist/local-docs)
2:14:53 PM: <sam> 2115 GMT, and significantly less of a quorum that last week.
2:15:17 PM: <cgu> Hmm, ok. Why not generate into dist/** and zip or tar that?
2:15:42 PM: <cgu> Shall we let Sam begin?
2:16:19 PM: <sam> Ceki - if you need to run, do what you have to do...
2:16:28 PM: <dlh> Want me to send a quick reminder mail to the pmc list?
2:16:33 PM: <Pete> The Elements of Style: What you don't think much
of our (my?) command of the ENglish language? ;)
2:16:51 PM: <cgu> I am actually using the computer of a friend in
his beedroom. It's
2:17:15 PM: <cgu> 11:15PM here. He'll tell me when I have to stop.
2:17:15 PM: <sam> Pete: you definately do not follow the dictim of
"omit needless words".
2:17:26 PM: <sam> ;-)
2:17:28 PM: <Pete> cgu: reasoning is that historically they were
further manipulated, besides which they are copied to multiple places..
They possibly could be removed bnow though ;)
2:17:48 PM: <cgu> Good to hear.
2:18:13 PM: <sam> Ted: still here?
2:18:26 PM: <Pete> sam: ;)
2:19:14 PM: <Ted> Yep
2:19:27 PM: <sam> 1.1 Ted: reformat the rules for
revolutionaries document from an email to a bylaw
2:19:36 PM: <Ted> Done.
2:19:47 PM: <cgu> Have to leave now.
2:20:07 PM: <Pete> seeya ;/
2:20:14 PM: <sam> Ceki: ok, later!
2:20:19 PM: <sam> Ted: URL?
2:20:22 PM: <cgu> +1 on the rules for revs. Bye now.
2:20:24 PM: <Ted>
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/proposal.html#decisions/branches
2:20:33 PM: *** cgu has signed off (Leaving)
2:21:02 PM: <sam> Ted: +1
2:21:48 PM: <Pete> Is there a summary/diff of changes since last time?
2:22:24 PM: <Ted> Everything is either in strike-out or maroon font
2:22:45 PM: <Ted> For the R4R, this is the only time
2:22:49 PM: <Ted> except for James' original
2:23:00 PM: *** dfs (-dfs@24.180.134.184) joined #jakarta
2:23:55 PM: <Pete> duh me - right okay looks good +1
2:24:24 PM: <geir> I have a specific issue re the rules for revs,
but this may not be the right place
2:24:34 PM: <sam> Geir: go ahead
2:25:02 PM: <geir> in the case of commons, where the 'main cvs' is a
set of subprojects in their own right, and we have the 'sandbox'
2:25:32 PM: <geir> to get to the point :
2:25:46 PM: <geir> we already have in commons the basis of R for R
because anyone can go start something in the sandbox
2:26:02 PM: <geir> and in the main cvs components themsevles, I
think that R for R should apply as well
2:26:18 PM: <geir> so getting to the point :) :
2:26:25 PM: <geir> can it be something that a subproject can modify?
2:26:38 PM: <geir> because it would be 'Jakarta policy'
2:26:50 PM: <geir> w/ no leeway for the projects as needs or situations dictate
2:27:00 PM: <geir> (done)
2:27:47 PM: <Pete> Lots of things are "Jakarta" policy that projects ignore ;)
2:27:50 PM: <geir> the point is subtle, and prollie lost on anyone
not involved in commons
2:27:58 PM: <sam> Outside of legal issues (including ownership of
name, etc), I see little that a subproject can't tweak.
2:28:09 PM: <geir> ok. I am happy to leave it there
2:28:27 PM: <sam> 1.2 Ted: revise bylaws
2:28:48 PM: <Ted> Same place, see outer loop.
2:29:55 PM: <sam> Ted: is the proposal ready for a vote/adoption?
2:30:08 PM: <Ted> Sure.
2:31:04 PM: <geir> I assume we can read and discuss over the next month?
2:31:27 PM: <sam> OK, +1 here. Represents a (significant, IMHO)
improvement and can always be ammended.
2:31:36 PM: <sam> Geir: how much longer does it need to be posted? ;-)
2:31:55 PM: <geir> how long has it been done?
2:32:05 PM: <geir> sorry - I didn't start looking at it until now
2:32:07 PM: <Pete> +1 on it but I think that in the future the r4r needs to be expanded ;)
2:32:10 PM: <Ted> Oh, 3 months or so.
2:32:13 PM: <geir> ah
2:32:17 PM: <geir> :)
2:32:26 PM: <geir> I thought you were still working on it.
2:35:26 PM: <sam> Hmmm. I'm not sure we have enough of a quorum to ammend the bylaws.
2:36:09 PM: <sam> And people seem to be uncharacteristically quiet today....
2:36:18 PM: <geir> (reading...)
2:36:19 PM: <Pete> whos here but not here exactly?
2:36:41 PM: <dfs> me
2:37:08 PM: <dfs> sorry, today had some unexpected surprises (sorry for being late)
2:38:07 PM: <dlh> I'm here --- looking thru Ted's stuff (hadn't
seen the color-coded version before...)
2:38:07 PM: <Pete> check out this feature request for ant:
2:38:11 PM: <Pete> I think it'd be useful to generate Makefiles
from build.xml ... The reasons
2:38:17 PM: <Pete> given for the creation of Ant had to do with
pitfalls of writing Makefiles.
2:38:23 PM: <Pete> Perhaps one generated from build.xml would remove
that problem. Pulling up a JVM
2:38:27 PM: <Pete> to run Ant is simply too slow at times.
2:39:31 PM: <sam> LOL...First thing people say about Ant is how
much faster it is when compiling Java code.
2:40:11 PM: <Pete> ;)
2:40:20 PM: <dlh> I was thinking of pointing him to imake, but I
thought that'd be cruel :)
2:40:28 PM: <Pete> hehe
2:40:32 PM: <sam> 1.3 Ceki: proposal for cvs layout & build procedures (done)
2:40:43 PM: <sam> 1.4 Sam: pmc election process
2:41:01 PM: <sam> I don't have anything prepared....are people
aware of what was recently done by/to the XML PMC?
2:41:17 PM: <geir> no
2:41:34 PM: <geir> but I assume it has been posted for 3 months
2:41:41 PM: <Pete> You mean the it go poof phenomenon?
2:42:58 PM: <sam> The XML PMC was disbanded. An election was held on general@xml.
2:43:14 PM: <sam> Votes were secret - counted by the board. Five were selected.
2:43:36 PM: <sam> Essentially, it was the equivalent of a complete re-election.
2:44:10 PM: <dlh> Re: Ted's stuff -- there's a sentence where he
says "tactic approval" -- I suspect he meant "tacit approval" (it's in
the Note wrt "Lazy", under Voting).
2:44:10 PM: <sam> Right now PMC members are until resignation or
being kicked out. Should everybody be subject to reelection?
2:44:42 PM: <Ted> Yes, tacit.
2:45:01 PM: <geir> there's plenty of upside to that, but downside is
total loss of institutional memory, so to speak
2:45:11 PM: <geir> if a lot of turnover
2:45:36 PM: <Pete> I think reelection is a nice aim - however I
assume that in most cases the same people will sit year after year
(unless they abandon their projects).
2:45:41 PM: <sam> Downside is theoretical. The ASF board has an
annual relection. When the dust settled, there was a diff of -2/+2.
2:45:57 PM: <geir> yes, theoretical - 'if'
2:46:38 PM: <sam> One downside is potential lack of
representation...e.g., three Tomcat guys and noone interested in ecs.
2:46:56 PM: <geir> what about the chair being elected from sitting members?
2:47:30 PM: <sam> We had a significant discussion about
representation in the XML PMC. I thought it important. Scott thought
it important and 1-1. Others thought it was UNimportant.
2:48:03 PM: <sam> Re: 1-1, I used avalon as an example. Splitting
into multiple CVSes with no new committers does not imply the need for
more representatives.
2:48:05 PM: <Pete> it would be nice if every project could
elect/nominate/whatever a champion. The problem will then be that some
projects get over-represented with respect to how much dev goes on at
jakarta.
2:48:27 PM: <sam> Pete: define project. How many votes does Avalon
get? Tomcat? Servletapi?
2:48:45 PM: <Pete> avalon 1
2:48:59 PM: <Pete> tomcat+servlet api: 1
2:49:10 PM: <Pete> (I assume servlet api part of tomcat)
2:49:14 PM: <sam> The XML pmc decided on 1 committer one vote. The
ASF board does one member one vote.
2:49:34 PM: <Pete> 1 committer one vote could work aswell
2:49:37 PM: <sam> Pete: tomcat3/4 one vote! I'd like to see that ;-)
2:50:09 PM: <geir> it's a tomcat committer a tomcat committer?
2:50:16 PM: <geir> s/it's/isn't/
2:50:43 PM: <Pete> geir: huh?
2:50:52 PM: <Pete> sam: could be fun huh? ;)
2:51:10 PM: <geir> I thought sam was saying that if you are a
committer in tomcat3 and tomcat4, you only get 1
2:51:20 PM: <geir> but I didn't think there was a distinction
2:51:22 PM: <sam> Geir: Tomcat 4 was a revolution. Nearly a bloody one at that.
2:51:44 PM: <geir> I remember the mess - so the committers are segmented?
2:53:42 PM: <sam> Geir, doesn't matter - the point is that however
you try to group projects, people will complain. ;-)
2:54:31 PM: <Pete> may I add people will complain regardless of what we do ;)
2:54:32 PM: <sam> My thoughts at this point is to model after the
ASF board and XML PMC - annual reelections, predetermined number of
seats (smaller than today), and 1 committer one vote.
2:55:02 PM: <sam> Pete: ;-)
2:55:18 PM: <dfs> makes sense
2:55:37 PM: <Pete> I like aswell
2:55:57 PM: <geir> q: why not 1 per project?
2:56:16 PM: <dfs> one vote or one seat?
2:56:27 PM: <geir> seat
2:56:38 PM: <geir> never mind
2:56:39 PM: <Pete> some projects have 10 active committers, others
have 1 - should they get equal representation?
2:56:45 PM: <geir> never mind
2:56:46 PM: <dfs> seems like it would get too big
2:58:35 PM: <geir> so where are we?
2:58:51 PM: <sam> OK, we have time to think about this for a bit.
Next election should probably coincide with the end of my term.
2:59:01 PM: <sam> 3.1 Consistent mailing list policies (moderation, etc)
2:59:55 PM: <sam> Are people happy or unhappy with the current
moderators or lack thereof?
3:00:05 PM: <Pete> I think consistent naming should be used and
moderation policies.
3:00:14 PM: <Pete> we need a moderator for pmc list ;)
3:00:41 PM: <Ted> People often ask about newsgroups as an alternative
3:00:55 PM: <geir> why?
3:01:59 PM: <Ted> Traffic -- downloading all the messages.
3:03:13 PM: <sam> My preference would be a general policy with
subprojects being able to tailor. Trouble is that now we can't tell if
what we have is a tailor or an accident. ;-)
3:04:25 PM: <sam> I guess the suggestion is that all lists be open
only to subscribers with the rest moderated, with the PMC and
announcements lists being open and strictly moderated respectively.
3:04:25 PM: <sam> OK?
3:05:00 PM: <Pete> sounds good to me
3:05:04 PM: <Pete> ie +1
3:05:10 PM: <geir> why not moderate pmc as well?
3:06:03 PM: <sam> Scenario: someone outside the PMC wants to report
a security bug in Tomcat or GPL code in commons...
3:06:42 PM: <geir> ... and? doesn't a moderator just let that go through?
3:06:44 PM: <Pete> time thing? ie we can't wait till moderator tags it as go?
3:06:56 PM: <geir> Scenario : www.bigguns.com....
3:07:09 PM: <geir> ... keeps the spam out...
3:07:18 PM: <sam> Moderators have been known to introduce
significant delays... ;-)
3:07:41 PM: <geir> anyway that duty can be shared?
3:08:01 PM: <sam> Has spam been a problem on the PMC list. I
interpreted Pete's first comment to be that we should moderate the
SUBSCRIBERS. ;-)
3:08:10 PM: <geir> :)
3:09:08 PM: <Pete> actually I was talking about spam but I guess it
is only one list so ... ;)
3:09:45 PM: <sam> If someone wants to volunteer to moderate the
PMC, let me know. Any more new business? Geir?
3:10:05 PM: <geir> yes
3:10:14 PM: <geir> thanks - I didn't read my email yet :)
3:10:27 PM: <geir> 1) Anyone mind if I put a 'news' sidebar on the
jakarta homepage?
3:10:33 PM: <geir> the news is currently hidden.
3:11:08 PM: <geir> 2) Any interest for or against in putting
together a 'jakarta job board' for people with experience with jakarta
'technologies'?
3:11:31 PM: <geir> for example, Fedor from Turbine/Vel land is
looking for a job, and has tremendous Turbine / Vel experience....
3:11:34 PM: <Pete> Essentials
3:11:44 PM: <geir> sorry?
3:11:47 PM: <Pete> Essentials?news not enough?
3:11:53 PM: <Pete> Essentials/news not enough?
3:11:55 PM: <Pete> bleh
3:11:57 PM: <Pete> ;)
3:12:01 PM: <geir> the news is hidden behind a link.
3:12:10 PM: <geir> it might be nice to be able to glance at it for new things.
3:12:29 PM: <Pete> oh - you mean dynamically generate sidebar for news items?
3:12:51 PM: <geir> dynamic - when the news is updated.... take the
top three and put the headline or soething with a link
3:12:59 PM: <geir> (small, on the side)
3:12:59 PM: <Pete> sounds good to me
3:13:38 PM: <sam> Personally, I'd flip it. News is the majority with links to the rest.
3:13:52 PM: <sam> Example of a good site (IMHO): http://www.php.net
3:13:52 PM: <Ted> -
3:13:56 PM: <Ted> -
3:13:57 PM: <Pete> job board sounds ok to me - one issue is we don't
want for it to seem like it is apache sanctioned. ie just because Bob
claims he can do X with technology Y in Apache land
3:14:08 PM: <geir> I didn't want to rock that boat too hard, re the
front page. dind't know if there was history.
3:14:26 PM: <geir> I'll try something and then we can unwind if it doesn't create joy...
3:14:35 PM: *** Ted has signed off ()
3:14:36 PM: <geir> Pete : that was my worry too
3:15:13 PM: <sam> Geir: our problem is generally not enough people
wanting to do things, not people wanting to keep things as they are.
3:15:18 PM: <Pete> I think it would be good to have default front
page news if thats what you are getting at
3:15:24 PM: *** Ted (-ted@roc-24-24-50-8.rochester.rr.com) joined #jakarta
3:15:32 PM: <Pete> rehi ;)
3:15:54 PM: <geir> well, there are strange threads of history sometimes :)
3:16:10 PM: <geir> so I will just do it and apologize later :)
3:16:29 PM: <Pete> works for me ;)
3:16:39 PM: <sam> Jon: still here?
3:16:52 PM: *** Received CTCP "TIME" from Pete
3:17:10 PM: <sam> If anybody has strong opinions on this subject
(web site), it would be jon.
3:17:46 PM: <geir> yes, but the apologize later approach gets points with him :)
3:18:23 PM: <geir> I can ask him later too, so we don't hold this up
3:18:26 PM: <dlh> I like Geir's idea -- I don't click on the News
link all that often, but I'd probably read some little "headlines"
section (then click on anything that intrigued me)
3:18:40 PM: <sam> Subproject status? I'd suggest everyone simply post.
3:19:02 PM: <dlh> Post where?
3:19:13 PM: <sam> Alexandria - three competing/cooperating
proposals. Trying to converge on a single DTD. Turbine continues to
frustrate Gump.
3:19:26 PM: <sam> Diane: here.
3:20:19 PM: <Pete> James: A new committer adding in all sorts of
features (NNTP, allowing multiple protocol handlers etc). There is a few
issues with remoteManagement but other than that all is well
3:21:47 PM: <geir> Velocity : had the v1.0 release April 2, v1.0.1
bugfix release April 23, things are going very well.
3:21:53 PM: <Ted> Taglibs: very busy. 4 new releases. 3 new proposals.
3:22:07 PM: <dlh> Ant - Stefan's voting for Ant2 has completed, so
I expect a call for proposals will be coming soon. A 1.4 release is
planned as well -- probably sometime around June. The Antidote GUI has
several new committers and was moved into a separate area in CVS.
3:22:58 PM: <geir> JMeter : just getting into it. Introduced myself
to the main committers, they understand what I am doing. They had an
alpha release at the end of March. I see a slow but steady stream of
activity.
3:23:00 PM: <Pete> Avalon: Framework and Basic Components going beta
to match Cocoon. Aim is for a release start of next month -
realistically halfway through next month. Phoenix (application server)
has recently got JMX managemtn added - which almost brings it to "ready"
in my book (still misses proper logging messages)
3:24:18 PM: <geir> ted - commons?
3:24:33 PM: <Ted> (You were doing that for me, Geir)
3:24:58 PM: <geir> ah. I am ready, but figured if you were here :)
3:25:52 PM: <geir> Commons : booming in waves :) Have our first
released component, the 'Cactus' J2EE unit testing component. Was
called J2EEUnit when on sourceforge. Current in beta, expecting a May 1
1.0 release I think.
3:26:29 PM: <sam> OK, I'll ask on the PMC list for the remainder.
3:26:55 PM: <geir> (I had more, but will post to list...)
3:27:07 PM: <sam> Geir: go ahead then...
3:27:18 PM: <sam> (I need to leave in about 20 minutes)
3:27:23 PM: <geir> I already deleted it from buffer... will post.
3:27:25 PM: <geir> :)
3:27:27 PM: <geir> sorry
3:27:45 PM: <geir> go on
3:28:06 PM: <sam> I don't know how to handle James's quasi-emeritus status.
3:28:13 PM: <sam> Anybody got any ideas?
3:28:22 PM: <geir> it can't be modeled after the apache emeritus?
3:29:50 PM: <sam> OK will do. (It's easier to get forgiveness than permission...)
3:30:18 PM: <geir> I was asking more than suggesting :)
3:30:44 PM: <geir> I was wondering what the downside would be - I don'
3:30:49 PM: <geir> t understand all the implications.
3:31:47 PM: <sam> I was a frequent critic of the previous PMC, and
went head to head with JDD on a number of occasions. I feel a bit
uncomfortable unilaterally moving him off the active list.
3:32:24 PM: <geir> ok. didn't he request it?
3:33:10 PM: <Pete> we can always postpone it to next meeting when we
have more peeps here. I don't see any problem with what you suggest but
JDD doesn't like me much so ... ;)
3:33:30 PM: <sam> He said "quasi" or some such. But the ASF allows
virtually instant reinstatement upon requests.
3:34:16 PM: <sam> Pete: FYI - JDD and I seem to disagree often on
mailing lists, but we seek each other out whenever we can in person.
It's an odd relationship.
3:34:58 PM: <Pete> sam: ;)
3:35:16 PM: <sam> OK, I'll touch bases with JDD and then update the web site.
3:35:39 PM: <sam> Last item on the agenda: schedule for next meeting.
3:36:20 PM: <Pete> I would prefer the alternate times but am okay
with this one. 7am is muuuuch better than 6am ;)
3:36:51 PM: <sam> I'm on vacation 14-18 of May. 7th is good for
me, and 21 may be ok.
3:37:29 PM: <geir> I am open at the moment. default +1
3:38:17 PM: <geir> want to hash this out on the list?
3:38:31 PM: <geir> this is glacial in velocity...
3:38:48 PM: <sam> Suggestion: 21 May, 0400 GMT.
3:38:58 PM: <dlh> Anytime is usually fine with me, though I'd
prefer either the morning or the evening, rather than the middle of the
day.
3:39:20 PM: <sam> (Sunday night in California, noon in Melbourne)
3:39:46 PM: <sam> 2100 California (prev day)
3:39:46 PM: <sam> 0000 NY
3:39:46 PM: <sam> 0400 GMT
3:39:46 PM: <sam> 0600 Zurich
3:39:46 PM: <sam> 1200 Melbourne
3:40:26 PM: <sam> And next month, we will rotate to 2100 GMT. OK?
3:40:27 PM: <geir> midnight on a sunday? ok by me
3:40:33 PM: <dlh> Sounds good to me.
3:40:39 PM: <Ted> +1
3:41:02 PM: <Pete> +1
3:41:34 PM: <dfs> +1
3:41:37 PM: <sam> OK, I move to adjourn the meeting.
3:41:43 PM: <sam> Seconds?
3:41:49 PM: <geir> second :)
3:41:52 PM: <dlh> second
3:41:54 PM: <dfs> i'm sorry today didn't turn out to be a good day
for me. i'll send an update and some other comments to the list.
3:41:55 PM: <dfs> second
3:42:25 PM: <geir> ok. gotta scoot. take care.
3:42:31 PM: <Pete> cheerio
3:42:33 PM: *** geir has signed off ()
3:42:35 PM: <sam> Later...
3:42:39 PM: *** Ted has signed off ()
3:42:51 PM: <dlh> Bye
3:42:52 PM: <Pete> bye ;)
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