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Posted to users@cocoon.apache.org by Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org> on 2009/02/03 14:44:58 UTC
Re: Getting started with C2.2 -- where's the exception information?
Klortho schrieb:
>
>
> dhohls wrote:
>> That's a little harsh - although my impression is that C2.2 is
>> perhaps a step sideways in terms of how many things are
>> done... but that's just an impression from reading all the
>> mailing list Q&A. So far, I have not needed to take the plunge.
>>
> Yes, you're right ... too harsh.
> I'm really just a newbie, but speaking as one, I think that 2.1 was a much
> nicer experience out of the gate, which is pretty damn important for an
> application to gain wider acceptance.
BTW, there's also a different viewpoint:
<Lenya community hat>
For us, as a project depending on Cocoon, it is crucial that Cocoon
doesn't cling to "dead" (as in language) concepts and frameworks as XSP
and Avalon, however proven and stable they may be. To attract new
community members, it's very important to keep looking beyond one's own
nose and stay in touch with current trends in the Java world. Putting
"Based on Maven and Spring" on your homepage sounds much better at the
moment than "Based on Ant and Avalon". And we shouldn't be afraid of
learning – familiar concepts often seem to be easier to understand than
new ones.
</Lenya community hat>
Just my $0.02.
-- Andreas
--
Andreas Hartmann, CTO
BeCompany GmbH
http://www.becompany.ch
Tel.: +41 (0) 43 818 57 01
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Re: Getting started with C2.2 -- where's the exception
information?
Posted by Derek Hohls <DH...@csir.co.za>.
Andreas
No; I did not say that I thought 2.1 *was* unsupported, just that
I hoped it would not be. Believe me, I do really appreciate the
generous effort and commitment from the experts that helps out
those of who do not "get" all the nuances as quickly.
I also did not take any offence - the Cocoon mailing list is actually
one of the most amazingly friendly and non-critical lists I know; we
all have our little rants from time-to-time, but everyone takes it
calmly and no one overreacts.
Finally< its good to see that projects are/have been making use
of 2.2; that will help shake out the bugs and hopefully build towards
some solid docs for it. I am especially looking forward to more of
the "migrating from 2.1" stories and documents (which is where I
suspect many are or might be going); as well as other entry-level
cases round Maven and the like.
For me, I am very happy that Cocoon has such a solid development
team who have a clear direction for it.
Derek
>>> On 2009/02/03 at 05:11, in message <gm...@ger.gmane.org>,
Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org> wrote:
Hi Derek,
> I agree from a *marketing* perspective that putting buzzwords
> on your site is a way to attract new users - especially those who
> might otherwise be going to .NET or Ruby-on-Rails - not that I mean
> to imply the developers are doing this for that reason alone.
>
> However, there is also such a thing as a "legacy" application;
> while you (or others) might think that languages such as COBOL,
> FORTRAN, Pascal etc are "dead", I can almost guarantee you
> there are millions of lines of code in those tools being written
> or maintained every year (C# notwithstanding).
>
> There are many of us who have been using Cocoon for many
> years now, and I would really hate to think we'll just be dumped
> because some new ideas or support frameworks have emerged.
do you have the feeling that the 2.1 branch is not sufficiently
supported anymore? If I understand Betrand correctly, it is officially
in maintenance mode and it is not planned to cease support. We (the
Lenya community) are certainly going to need it for another couple of
years, so we'll be bound to maintain it.
> Personally, I'd also like to see the documentation develop and
> mature a little more - there are certainly *lots* of "getting
started"
> questions in the ML about 2.2 - and a book or half would also
> provide some reassurance that a solid new ship is ready for all
> types of sailors.
+1
> So yes, I am prepared to learn - no doubt I will have to - but it
> does not yet feel the right time for what appears to require a
> significant upheaval.
Sorry if my mail caused any offence or could be taken personally, that
was not my intention. I only wanted to express the viewpoint of another
type of Cocoon user * the projects which depend on it.
Thanks for your reply!
-- Andreas
--
Andreas Hartmann, CTO
BeCompany GmbH
http://www.becompany.ch
Tel.: +41 (0) 43 818 57 01
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Re: Getting started with C2.2 -- where's the exception information?
Posted by Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org>.
Hi Derek,
Derek Hohls schrieb:
[…]
> I agree from a *marketing* perspective that putting buzzwords
> on your site is a way to attract new users - especially those who
> might otherwise be going to .NET or Ruby-on-Rails - not that I mean
> to imply the developers are doing this for that reason alone.
>
> However, there is also such a thing as a "legacy" application;
> while you (or others) might think that languages such as COBOL,
> FORTRAN, Pascal etc are "dead", I can almost guarantee you
> there are millions of lines of code in those tools being written
> or maintained every year (C# notwithstanding).
>
> There are many of us who have been using Cocoon for many
> years now, and I would really hate to think we'll just be dumped
> because some new ideas or support frameworks have emerged.
do you have the feeling that the 2.1 branch is not sufficiently
supported anymore? If I understand Betrand correctly, it is officially
in maintenance mode and it is not planned to cease support. We (the
Lenya community) are certainly going to need it for another couple of
years, so we'll be bound to maintain it.
> Personally, I'd also like to see the documentation develop and
> mature a little more - there are certainly *lots* of "getting started"
> questions in the ML about 2.2 - and a book or half would also
> provide some reassurance that a solid new ship is ready for all
> types of sailors.
+1
> So yes, I am prepared to learn - no doubt I will have to - but it
> does not yet feel the right time for what appears to require a
> significant upheaval.
Sorry if my mail caused any offence or could be taken personally, that
was not my intention. I only wanted to express the viewpoint of another
type of Cocoon user – the projects which depend on it.
Thanks for your reply!
-- Andreas
--
Andreas Hartmann, CTO
BeCompany GmbH
http://www.becompany.ch
Tel.: +41 (0) 43 818 57 01
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Getting started with C2.2 -- where's the exception
information?
Posted by Derek Hohls <DH...@csir.co.za>.
Andreas
Do you want the short reply or the long reply :)
Short:
There needs to be room in the Cocoon universe for 2.1 users as
well as 2.2 users.
Long:
This is the classic issue isn't it!? Certainly we are beset by the
"culture of the new" at present; where "new == better" - be it
cellphones, politicians, or computer languages.
I agree from a *marketing* perspective that putting buzzwords
on your site is a way to attract new users - especially those who
might otherwise be going to .NET or Ruby-on-Rails - not that I mean
to imply the developers are doing this for that reason alone.
However, there is also such a thing as a "legacy" application;
while you (or others) might think that languages such as COBOL,
FORTRAN, Pascal etc are "dead", I can almost guarantee you
there are millions of lines of code in those tools being written
or maintained every year (C# notwithstanding).
There are many of us who have been using Cocoon for many
years now, and I would really hate to think we'll just be dumped
because some new ideas or support frameworks have emerged.
Personally, I'd also like to see the documentation develop and
mature a little more - there are certainly *lots* of "getting started"
questions in the ML about 2.2 - and a book or half would also
provide some reassurance that a solid new ship is ready for all
types of sailors.
So yes, I am prepared to learn - no doubt I will have to - but it
does not yet feel the right time for what appears to require a
significant upheaval.
My 2(non-Euro)c
Derek
>>> On 2009/02/03 at 03:44, in message <gm...@ger.gmane.org>,
Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org> wrote:
Klortho schrieb:
>
>
> dhohls wrote:
>> That's a little harsh - although my impression is that C2.2 is
>> perhaps a step sideways in terms of how many things are
>> done... but that's just an impression from reading all the
>> mailing list Q&A. So far, I have not needed to take the plunge.
>>
> Yes, you're right ... too harsh.
> I'm really just a newbie, but speaking as one, I think that 2.1 was a
much
> nicer experience out of the gate, which is pretty damn important for
an
> application to gain wider acceptance.
BTW, there's also a different viewpoint:
<Lenya community hat>
For us, as a project depending on Cocoon, it is crucial that Cocoon
doesn't cling to "dead" (as in language) concepts and frameworks as XSP
and Avalon, however proven and stable they may be. To attract new
community members, it's very important to keep looking beyond one's own
nose and stay in touch with current trends in the Java world. Putting
"Based on Maven and Spring" on your homepage sounds much better at the
moment than "Based on Ant and Avalon". And we shouldn't be afraid of
learning * familiar concepts often seem to be easier to understand
than
new ones.
</Lenya community hat>
Just my $0.02.
-- Andreas
--
Andreas Hartmann, CTO
BeCompany GmbH
http://www.becompany.ch
Tel.: +41 (0) 43 818 57 01
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--
This message is subject to the CSIR's copyright terms and conditions, e-mail legal notice, and implemented Open Document Format (ODF) standard.
The full disclaimer details can be found at http://www.csir.co.za/disclaimer.html.
This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner,
and is believed to be clean. MailScanner thanks Transtec Computers for their support.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Getting started with C2.2 -- where's the exception information?
Posted by DAVIGNON Andre - CETE NP/DIODé/PANDOC <An...@developpement-durable.gouv.fr>.
Hi,
> For us, as a project depending on Cocoon, it is crucial that Cocoon
> doesn't cling to "dead" (as in language) concepts and frameworks as XSP
> and Avalon, however proven and stable they may be. To attract new
> community members, it's very important to keep looking beyond one's own
> nose and stay in touch with current trends in the Java world. Putting
> "Based on Maven and Spring" on your homepage sounds much better at the
> moment than "Based on Ant and Avalon". And we shouldn't be afraid of
> learning – familiar concepts often seem to be easier to understand than
> new ones.
As Derek pointed out, it's not a matter of learning - we all have to,
not only about Cocoon, don't we ;-) ? - and for sure "Based on Maven and
Spring" sounds more attractive. But at the moment "attractive" or
"sounds better" is not my major concern.
In the _real_ world, there are lots of 2.1 running apps that must work
and keep being supported. And it's a good news that 2.1 is still in
maintenance mode as Bertrand recently wrote :-).
Cheers,
André
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