Re: we are building a website for a non-profit org. and would like some advice

[Jason van Zyl <jv...@apache.org>]

On 6/25/01 12:42 PM, "Raymond Barglow" <ra...@dnai.com> wrote:

> Dear Turbine afficionados,
> 
> This is my very first message to this board.  This is our predicament:
> 
> At New College of California, a small liberal arts college in San
> Francisco, we (four of us in all) are working, on a volunteer basis,
> with a non-profit organization called "Manos" that aims to build a web
> presence.  I have some design/programming experience in C, Unix, and
> building databases, but have never been involved in the creation of a
> Web application.  The three others have varying experience, but know
> little about building a database-backed website.   Which is why we could
> use some good advice.
> 
> Manos, our client, is an organization through which Latin American
> workers, usually newly arrived to this country, find work in people's
> homes, e.g. doing house cleaning, elder care, carpentry, painting, etc.
> People needing such home services could log in to the Manos website and
> find someone qualified to work for them.
> 
> We plan to use Apache/Tomcat and an Oracle database running under Linux.
> That may be overkill, but we want room to expand.  We also have the free
> use of an Oracle system, so expense is not a major issue in this
> regard.  We want also to develop this system in Java.  But beyond these
> choices, we're at sea, swimming (not yet sinking) amidst the plethora of
> alternatives.  Turbine?  WebMacro?  Velocity?  Dreamweaver/Ultradev?  We
> barely know the meaning of these words, let alone which to marry
> ourselves to. Our aim is to facilitate project development, and not to
> build from scratch, if possible.

Turbine integrates many technologies, Velocity is one of them. Velocity
provides the view portion of the MVC model in Turbine. Turbine provides
a lot, you don't have to write much yourself but there is a learning
curve. We do provide the Turbine Development Kit (TDK) which provides
a small sample application that is still lacking but you can get
it up in running minutes so that you can evaluate Turbine for
yourself.

> 
> The plot thickens: I am organizing a new IT curriculum for New College
> in San Francisco. This curriculum will not only teach technical skills,
> but will also examine the social and political foundations of the world
> we inhabit, including the roles of science and technology within it.  We
> also intend to arrange technology exchange programs with people abroad.
> (Should this project interest you, please visit
> www.newcollege.edu/infotechnology, where we explain what we have in
> mind.)

Cool. I am very interested in these topics myself, so much so that
I would be willing to help you in private if you required it. I have
been greatly influenced by the writings of Lewis Mumford, Neil Postman,
Theodore Rozak, J. Ellul and a couple of Canadians you might not
be that familiar with (I'm Canadian :-)): George Grant and Ursala
Franklin (she's actually a metallurgist).

I would definitely be interested in further discussion, but
this list is not the place for it.

> Hence the website that we build for Manos will also be an object
> lesson for our students.  Students in our new program who study this
> website should be able to see all of the source code.  We don't want to
> be playing with any tinkertoys that we can't see and understand -- no
> black boxes, please..We developers too will be learning everything as we
> go along, which will be facilitated if all of the source is available to
> us.

Definitely.
 
> As I mentioned, we would rather not build from scratch, but adapt
> something that already exists -- perhaps an already existing application
> that we can learn from and adapt to our purposes.  We'll initially have
> a handful of tables -- one containing worker records, another containing
> homeowner records, a third containing contracts arranged between these
> two parties, etc.  We will build out in the direction of billing and
> multi-language functionality.  My guess is that we want to use Model 2
> programming, which is followed by products like Turbine.  Might Turbine
> be appropriate for us?  More so than WebMacro, or Velocity?  More so
> than another tool such as DreamWeaver/Ultradev? Are there existing
> applications written with these tools that we could learn from and
> modify to meet our needs.

You can actually use all these tools. Turbine uses Velocity, and can
use WebMacro too (though I don't recommend it as it is falling by the
wayside given the success of Velocity). You can also use Dreamweaer
if you like.
 
> If someone out there can advise us, we will be very thankful.

Sure, if you give me some more details I can probably whip you up
a little schema and sample applications so that you can try things
out for yourself. There is a lot in Turbine and it's by no means
easy to get up to speed. Even after looking at the sample app
you're going to have a mountain of questions. But if you want
to take a peek at Turbine I'd be more than willing to help
given the subject matter.

 
> Raymond Barglow
> Berkeley, CA
> 510-486-1050
> rayb@dnai.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
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-- 

jvz.

Jason van Zyl

http://tambora.zenplex.org
http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine
http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity
http://jakarta.apache.org/alexandria
http://jakarta.apache.org/commons



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Velocity v ASP. Pros/Cons needed. Fast!

[ps...@comcen.com.au]

G'day  all,
I will quickly summarise my situation.
I have been building a Turbine based app for the last
few months. It is currently using Mysql based on a Linux machine.
It's a relatively simple Financial web site that generates
charts and reports based on ASX (Australian stock Xchange)
codes. ie you put company (ASX) codes and some other criteria
in and you get a report and/or charts.

I have Mysql as the database, which stores around 30Mb of data.
There is no other site like this in Australia, and my client 
envisages that it will be very successful and heavily used, with perhaps at 
least a 200 or more users accessing the site at once.

Now, the issue is that there is another company which is doing the
front-end design. They have traditionally been ASP-centric and the dude
that does the pages has started griping this and that about velocity, though
I think it's because it hurts his head to much to try and understand 
and therefore just easier to criticise (He started complaining about
not much documention for Velocity - my heart bled).

Anway, they've hacked up a couple of screens in ASP to show 
the client (who isnt' a techo so can't judge ASPvTurbine), and
basically saying "Hey, this works, what do we need this Turbine stuff for??".
I've tried to explain some of the advantages of of Turbine , ie logging,
connection pooling, scalability, caching pages etc, but I don't
have enough knowledge about ASP to say with 100% certainty
where Turbine kicks its bum or vice-versa.

I would be indebted if people could give objectively as many pros/cons 
concering ASPv Turbine (Using Velocity).

It goes without saying that there is a certain amount of honour on my part 
involved in this too; that I admit, nor do I want to see another site using  M$ 
products.

Regards to all,

Patrick Saunders.









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Re: Building a website for a non-profit org.

[Jon Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>]

on 7/19/01 5:40 PM, "Raymond Barglow" <ra...@dnai.com> wrote:

> Hello Jason (with cc to team),
> 
> It's been nearly 3 weeks since we last communicated.  I'm including one email
> message as a reminder.
> 
> We've made progress slowly but steadily.  We have a server -- Dell PowerEdge
> 2200, with 128 MB main memory (we realized that is paltry), and sufficient
> disk memory. We can update the server to perhaps 512 MB main memory, or
> purchase a more powerful and newer server, if that makes more sense.

Server is probably fine...more memory is always good and it is cheap right
now...

> On the server, I've installed Linux 6.0 (Hedwig) and Oracle 8i.

If you are a non-profit, then why are you using Oracle?

Go get MySQL or Postgres. Free and will more than do the job.

>  I've also
> implemented remote access to the server via telnet.

Telnet is a terrible protocol. Very insecure as nothing is
encrypted...including your passwords. You should be using ssh.
www.openssh.org

> Our skills/availability situation is: we are 4 volunteers, with considerable
> programming/database experience, but almost no Oracle/Java experience,
> although i am willing to learn. i do know C, and it looks like i will be the
> main person in doing the site development, until we get some grant money and
> can afford to hire some more skilled folks.

C won't help you here.

> In terms of specifications, we have drawn up a very basic ER diagram.  (I
> don't have it, but will try to have it sent to you.)  At the foundation, we
> will  have a worker table, a homeowner table, and a contract table that holds
> assignments arranged by members of the first two tables. That i think is where
> we should begin.

Kewl

> Given the nature of our project and of ourselves, is turbine a sensible place
> for us to get underway? Our sense is that it is. i've scouted about a bit and
> found an "Oracle 8i Howto" page at the turbine jakarta project:
> 
> http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine/howto/oracle-howto.html

Dump oracle.

>>> Raymond Barglow
>>> Berkeley, CA
>>> 510-486-1050
>>> rayb@dnai.com

Yea Berkeley! :-)

-jon


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Building a website for a non-profit org.

[Raymond Barglow <ra...@dnai.com>]

Hello Jason (with cc to team),

It's been nearly 3 weeks since we last communicated.  I'm including one email
message as a reminder.

We've made progress slowly but steadily.  We have a server -- Dell PowerEdge
2200, with 128 MB main memory (we realized that is paltry), and sufficient
disk memory. We can update the server to perhaps 512 MB main memory, or
purchase a more powerful and newer server, if that makes more sense.

On the server, I've installed Linux 6.0 (Hedwig) and Oracle 8i.  I've also
implemented remote access to the server via telnet.

Our skills/availability situation is: we are 4 volunteers, with considerable
programming/database experience, but almost no Oracle/Java experience,
although i am willing to learn. i do know C, and it looks like i will be the
main person in doing the site development, until we get some grant money and
can afford to hire some more skilled folks.

In terms of specifications, we have drawn up a very basic ER diagram.  (I
don't have it, but will try to have it sent to you.)  At the foundation, we
will  have a worker table, a homeowner table, and a contract table that holds
assignments arranged by members of the first two tables. That i think is where
we should begin.

Given the nature of our project and of ourselves, is turbine a sensible place
for us to get underway? Our sense is that it is. i've scouted about a bit and
found an "Oracle 8i Howto" page at the turbine jakarta project:

http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine/howto/oracle-howto.html

I'm prepared to work on carrying out the steps listed on this page, if you
deem that advisable.

can you outline for us what a path into the nar future  might be, involving
yourself in a little handholding, if you are still willing to help?

Thanks,

Raymond Barglow
Berkeley, CA
**********************

Jason van Zyl wrote:

> On 6/25/01 12:42 PM, "Raymond Barglow" <ra...@dnai.com> wrote:
>
> > Dear Turbine afficionados,
> >
> > This is my very first message to this board.  This is our predicament:
> >
> > At New College of California, a small liberal arts college in San
> > Francisco, we (four of us in all) are working, on a volunteer basis,
> > with a non-profit organization called "Manos" that aims to build a web
> > presence.  I have some design/programming experience in C, Unix, and
> > building databases, but have never been involved in the creation of a
> > Web application.  The three others have varying experience, but know
> > little about building a database-backed website.   Which is why we could
> > use some good advice.
> >
> > Manos, our client, is an organization through which Latin American
> > workers, usually newly arrived to this country, find work in people's
> > homes, e.g. doing house cleaning, elder care, carpentry, painting, etc.
> > People needing such home services could log in to the Manos website and
> > find someone qualified to work for them.
> >
> > We plan to use Apache/Tomcat and an Oracle database running under Linux.
> > That may be overkill, but we want room to expand.  We also have the free
> > use of an Oracle system, so expense is not a major issue in this
> > regard.  We want also to develop this system in Java.  But beyond these
> > choices, we're at sea, swimming (not yet sinking) amidst the plethora of
> > alternatives.  Turbine?  WebMacro?  Velocity?  Dreamweaver/Ultradev?  We
> > barely know the meaning of these words, let alone which to marry
> > ourselves to. Our aim is to facilitate project development, and not to
> > build from scratch, if possible.
>
> Turbine integrates many technologies, Velocity is one of them. Velocity
> provides the view portion of the MVC model in Turbine. Turbine provides
> a lot, you don't have to write much yourself but there is a learning
> curve. We do provide the Turbine Development Kit (TDK) which provides
> a small sample application that is still lacking but you can get
> it up in running minutes so that you can evaluate Turbine for
> yourself.
>
> >
> > The plot thickens: I am organizing a new IT curriculum for New College
> > in San Francisco. This curriculum will not only teach technical skills,
> > but will also examine the social and political foundations of the world
> > we inhabit, including the roles of science and technology within it.  We
> > also intend to arrange technology exchange programs with people abroad.
> > (Should this project interest you, please visit
> > www.newcollege.edu/infotechnology, where we explain what we have in
> > mind.)
>
> Cool. I am very interested in these topics myself, so much so that
> I would be willing to help you in private if you required it. I have
> been greatly influenced by the writings of Lewis Mumford, Neil Postman,
> Theodore Rozak, J. Ellul and a couple of Canadians you might not
> be that familiar with (I'm Canadian :-)): George Grant and Ursala
> Franklin (she's actually a metallurgist).
>
> I would definitely be interested in further discussion, but
> this list is not the place for it.
>
> > Hence the website that we build for Manos will also be an object
> > lesson for our students.  Students in our new program who study this
> > website should be able to see all of the source code.  We don't want to
> > be playing with any tinkertoys that we can't see and understand -- no
> > black boxes, please..We developers too will be learning everything as we
> > go along, which will be facilitated if all of the source is available to
> > us.
>
> Definitely.
>
> > As I mentioned, we would rather not build from scratch, but adapt
> > something that already exists -- perhaps an already existing application
> > that we can learn from and adapt to our purposes.  We'll initially have
> > a handful of tables -- one containing worker records, another containing
> > homeowner records, a third containing contracts arranged between these
> > two parties, etc.  We will build out in the direction of billing and
> > multi-language functionality.  My guess is that we want to use Model 2
> > programming, which is followed by products like Turbine.  Might Turbine
> > be appropriate for us?  More so than WebMacro, or Velocity?  More so
> > than another tool such as DreamWeaver/Ultradev? Are there existing
> > applications written with these tools that we could learn from and
> > modify to meet our needs.
>
> You can actually use all these tools. Turbine uses Velocity, and can
> use WebMacro too (though I don't recommend it as it is falling by the
> wayside given the success of Velocity). You can also use Dreamweaer
> if you like.
>
> > If someone out there can advise us, we will be very thankful.
>
> Sure, if you give me some more details I can probably whip you up
> a little schema and sample applications so that you can try things
> out for yourself. There is a lot in Turbine and it's by no means
> easy to get up to speed. Even after looking at the sample app
> you're going to have a mountain of questions. But if you want
> to take a peek at Turbine I'd be more than willing to help
> given the subject matter.
>
>
> > Raymond Barglow
> > Berkeley, CA
> > 510-486-1050
> > rayb@dnai.com


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