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Posted to modperl@perl.apache.org by Gerd Knops <ge...@bitart.com> on 2002/07/03 01:34:17 UTC
[OT] Better Linux server platform: Redhat or SuSe?
Hi,
Sorry for this somewhat OT post (though it may be of general interest).
I am currently maintaining a WAN (4 continents) consisting of FreeBSD
machines. While I am quite happy with FreeBSD, lack of driver support for
some boards I need to use forces me to switch to Linux. And while the Pros
often seem to favor Debian, the drivers I need (binary only) seem to be
best tested with/easiest available for Redhat and SuSe, which is why I am
looking especially at those two.
This is strictly for server use, so problems with X, compatibility with
new-fangled video boards and other Desktop-OS related problems are not the
issue here.
Besides general observations I am specifically interested in answers to
these questions:
Apache/modperl installation and updates: I assume installation is straight
forward, how about keeping current? As those are remotely administered
platforms, chances are the OS may not be kept current. So is it still easy
to deal with security updates (Apache, sshd, bind etc) when the platform
is a couple of years old? With FreeBSD this has become somewhat harder
lately (still running 3.x, but the ports system doesn't support 3.x any
longer).
Remote maintability: Is it possible to remotely upgrade between OS
versions for either of those platforms (not a must, but would be a plus)?
Sendmail: Does the system make it easy to replace sendmail with another
mailer of choice (qmail in my case)?
Footprint: Is it easy to weed out unused system components to have a
smaller footprint of the OS? Or does that mean fighting the installer left
and right?
perl: Any iussues with perl/modperl? Besides modperl I will be running a
perl application with a few hundred thousend lines of code...
Security: Is it easy to 'tie down' the system?
Software-based RAID 1: Is it usable (only for a data partition, not
required for the root partition)? Is it easy to recover from a broken disk?
Robustness: While almost all systems I have are/will be on UPSs, they
still tend to occasionally be 'unplugged' (not shut down cleanly), be it
due to an empty or dead UPS battery, someone tripping over or accidentaly
unplugging the power cable etc. etc. Does the system tend to survive the
then due fsck without manual intervention? Better yet, would it be
possible to mount / and /usr read-only, and have a /var partition that (if
the worst should happen) can be recreated on the fly?
Any other oddities one should be aware of?
Thanks much for any input
Gerd
Re: [OT] Better Linux server platform: Redhat or SuSe?
Posted by Chris Garrigues <cw...@DeepEddy.Com>.
> From: Barry Hoggard <ba...@tristanmedia.com>
> Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 11:52:21 -0400
>
> >
> > Remote maintability: Is it possible to remotely upgrade between OS
> > versions for either of those platforms (not a must, but would be a plus)?
>
> I would be afraid to do that remotely, since it normally involved a
> kernel change as well.
We have an internal distribution which is kinda mostly a redhat system gets
various RPMs updated remotely including kernel RPMs, but I'm *very* careful
with kernel RPMs and do multiple installs on non-remote systems before I do
any remote systems.
> >
> > Sendmail: Does the system make it easy to replace sendmail with another
> > mailer of choice (qmail in my case)?
>
> I don't know about Red Hat, but it's certainly easy in SuSE.
Build your own RPM from one of the SRPMs out there and qmail will work fine.
> >
> > Footprint: Is it easy to weed out unused system components to have a
> > smaller footprint of the OS? Or does that mean fighting the installer
> > left and right?
>
> I don't know if Red Hat is getting any better, but I've always found it
> difficult to do a "minimal" install. SuSE has options for a very
> minimal install which is what I use for server installs.
We created our own comps file for our custom configs.
> >
> > perl: Any iussues with perl/modperl? Besides modperl I will be running a
> > perl application with a few hundred thousend lines of code...
>
> My current project: http://www.better-investing.org
>
> runs on Red Hat. I'm not aware of any perl/mod_perl issues, but I built
> perl and the apache binaries myself. I don't use their RPMs.
I use a mix of RedHat RPMS, my own RPMs and other people's RPMs. My perl and
apache RPMs are all currently from Mandrake. (I seem to be gradually
migrating towards Mandrake.)
Chris
--
Chris Garrigues http://www.DeepEddy.Com/~cwg/
virCIO http://www.virCIO.Com
716 Congress, Suite 200
Austin, TX 78701 +1 512 374 0500
"What are you really trying to do."
Re: [OT] Better Linux server platform: Redhat or SuSe?
Posted by le...@wrkhors.com.
-- Barry Hoggard <ba...@tristanmedia.com> on 07/03/02 11:52:21 -0400
> You're talking about using their packages? I suspect most people on this
> list build their own apache/mod_perl binaries.
Nearly always a good idea since it's (a) remarkably
simple to do and (b) ensures that the current perl's
options are used for mod_perl.
--
Steven Lembark 2930 W. Palmer
Workhorse Computing Chicago, IL 60647
+1 800 762 1582
Re: [OT] Better Linux server platform: Redhat or SuSe?
Posted by Barry Hoggard <ba...@tristanmedia.com>.
Since everyone's become distracted by the lines of code number, I
answered a few of the questions that I feel I can answer.
> Apache/modperl installation and updates: I assume installation is
> straight forward, how about keeping current? As those are remotely
> administered platforms, chances are the OS may not be kept current. So
> is it still easy to deal with security updates (Apache, sshd, bind etc)
> when the platform is a couple of years old? With FreeBSD this has become
> somewhat harder lately (still running 3.x, but the ports system doesn't
> support 3.x any longer).
You're talking about using their packages? I suspect most people on
this list build their own apache/mod_perl binaries.
>
> Remote maintability: Is it possible to remotely upgrade between OS
> versions for either of those platforms (not a must, but would be a plus)?
I would be afraid to do that remotely, since it normally involved a
kernel change as well.
>
> Sendmail: Does the system make it easy to replace sendmail with another
> mailer of choice (qmail in my case)?
I don't know about Red Hat, but it's certainly easy in SuSE.
>
> Footprint: Is it easy to weed out unused system components to have a
> smaller footprint of the OS? Or does that mean fighting the installer
> left and right?
I don't know if Red Hat is getting any better, but I've always found it
difficult to do a "minimal" install. SuSE has options for a very
minimal install which is what I use for server installs.
>
> perl: Any iussues with perl/modperl? Besides modperl I will be running a
> perl application with a few hundred thousend lines of code...
My current project: http://www.better-investing.org
runs on Red Hat. I'm not aware of any perl/mod_perl issues, but I built
perl and the apache binaries myself. I don't use their RPMs.
>
> Security: Is it easy to 'tie down' the system?
The web site is behind a firewall and load balancers, so the web servers
themselves don't have ipchains, etc. but they also aren't running any
services available to the outside except http and ssh.
>
> Software-based RAID 1: Is it usable (only for a data partition, not
> required for the root partition)? Is it easy to recover from a broken disk?
>
> Robustness: While almost all systems I have are/will be on UPSs, they
> still tend to occasionally be 'unplugged' (not shut down cleanly), be it
> due to an empty or dead UPS battery, someone tripping over or
> accidentaly unplugging the power cable etc. etc. Does the system tend to
> survive the then due fsck without manual intervention? Better yet, would
> it be possible to mount / and /usr read-only, and have a /var partition
> that (if the worst should happen) can be recreated on the fly?
Can't help you on RAID, but I have found SuSE with ext3 or ReiserFS to
be VERY recoverable.
--
Barry Hoggard
Tristan Media LLC
e: barry@tristanmedia.com
p: 212-627-1596
aim: hoggardb
Re: [OT] Better Linux server platform: Redhat or SuSe?
Posted by Owen Scott Medd <os...@interguide.com>.
We wrote our own templating system (back when modperl was still just a
puppy) as we have over 200 sites running off the same code instance
distributed across the server farm.
Everybody wants their submit buttons to say something slightly different,
we were forced early on to remove all hardcoded html from the code.
The reason for all that code is that there is just a lot of functionality
there (text analysis, vectorspace matching, billing, customer management,
message system). Much of it has been migrating into our java-based
backend system (I'm sure a year ago the number of lines of code would have
been substantially higher) as we retire all the business logic that was
embedded in the modperl frontend and maintain only the java version which
runs in the backend.
Owen
On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, Peter Bi wrote:
> Maybe that depends on the project. We have a powerful BBS system, which
> contains: read/post messages, public and member sign ups, messages cached
> to disk or memory, email notification, fast sorting of message threads and
> follow-ups, and a number of other features. It consists of 5 modules and
> each module has only 100 - 300 lines. Well, we use HTML::Template that helps
> to separate the HTML codes from the modules. Having HTML in perl programs
> makes a big difference.
>
> Peter Bi
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Owen Scott Medd" <os...@interguide.com>
> To: "Peter Haworth" <pm...@edison.ioppublishing.com>
> Cc: "Jean-Michel Hiver" <jh...@mkdoc.com>; "Gerd Knops" <ge...@bitart.com>;
> <mo...@perl.apache.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 11:53 AM
> Subject: Re: [OT] Better Linux server platform: Redhat or SuSe?
>
>
> > lol... We're running a little over 175000 lines of (mod)perl code,
> > currently running on a mix of RedHat 7.1, 7.2, 7.3 and Advanced Server.
> >
> > Next?
> >
> > On Wed, 2002-07-03 at 09:41, Peter Haworth wrote:
> > > On Wed, 3 Jul 2002 11:40:44 +0100, Jean-Michel Hiver wrote:
> > > > > perl: Any iussues with perl/modperl? Besides modperl I will be
> running a
> > > > > perl application with a few hundred thousend lines of code...
> > > >
> > > > Wow. For reference last time I looked at slashcode it was about 25.000
> > > > lines I think. I wonder what kind of application would require more
> than
> > > > that amount of Perl code :-)
> > >
> > > I'm sure someone else will post a bigger number, but my application (IOP
> > > Electronic Journals) has 55000 lines of code (including the odd blank
> line
> > > and comment, of course). And we're always adding new stuff, so it only
> ever
> > > gets bigger.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Peter Haworth pmh@edison.ioppublishing.com
> > > "We don't care how they do it in New York."
> > >
> >
> > Owen
> > --
> > USMail: InterGuide Communications, 230 Lyn Anne Court, Ann Arbor, MI
> > 48103
> > Phone: +1 734 997-0922 FAX: +1 734 661-0324
> > mailto:osm@interguide.com http://www.interguide.com/~osm/
> >
> >
>
>
--
USMail: InterGuide Communications, 230 Lyn Anne Court, Ann Arbor, MI 48103
phone: +1 734 997-0922 fax: +1 734 661-0324
mailto:osm@interguide.com http://www.interguide.com/~osm/
[ Sometimes wrong. Never in doubt. ]
Re: [OT] Better Linux server platform: Redhat or SuSe?
Posted by Peter Bi <mo...@att.net>.
Maybe that depends on the project. We have a powerful BBS system, which
contains: read/post messages, public and member sign ups, messages cached
to disk or memory, email notification, fast sorting of message threads and
follow-ups, and a number of other features. It consists of 5 modules and
each module has only 100 - 300 lines. Well, we use HTML::Template that helps
to separate the HTML codes from the modules. Having HTML in perl programs
makes a big difference.
Peter Bi
----- Original Message -----
From: "Owen Scott Medd" <os...@interguide.com>
To: "Peter Haworth" <pm...@edison.ioppublishing.com>
Cc: "Jean-Michel Hiver" <jh...@mkdoc.com>; "Gerd Knops" <ge...@bitart.com>;
<mo...@perl.apache.org>
Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 11:53 AM
Subject: Re: [OT] Better Linux server platform: Redhat or SuSe?
> lol... We're running a little over 175000 lines of (mod)perl code,
> currently running on a mix of RedHat 7.1, 7.2, 7.3 and Advanced Server.
>
> Next?
>
> On Wed, 2002-07-03 at 09:41, Peter Haworth wrote:
> > On Wed, 3 Jul 2002 11:40:44 +0100, Jean-Michel Hiver wrote:
> > > > perl: Any iussues with perl/modperl? Besides modperl I will be
running a
> > > > perl application with a few hundred thousend lines of code...
> > >
> > > Wow. For reference last time I looked at slashcode it was about 25.000
> > > lines I think. I wonder what kind of application would require more
than
> > > that amount of Perl code :-)
> >
> > I'm sure someone else will post a bigger number, but my application (IOP
> > Electronic Journals) has 55000 lines of code (including the odd blank
line
> > and comment, of course). And we're always adding new stuff, so it only
ever
> > gets bigger.
> >
> > --
> > Peter Haworth pmh@edison.ioppublishing.com
> > "We don't care how they do it in New York."
> >
>
> Owen
> --
> USMail: InterGuide Communications, 230 Lyn Anne Court, Ann Arbor, MI
> 48103
> Phone: +1 734 997-0922 FAX: +1 734 661-0324
> mailto:osm@interguide.com http://www.interguide.com/~osm/
>
>
Re: [OT] Better Linux server platform: Redhat or SuSe?
Posted by Owen Scott Medd <os...@interguide.com>.
lol... We're running a little over 175000 lines of (mod)perl code,
currently running on a mix of RedHat 7.1, 7.2, 7.3 and Advanced Server.
Next?
On Wed, 2002-07-03 at 09:41, Peter Haworth wrote:
> On Wed, 3 Jul 2002 11:40:44 +0100, Jean-Michel Hiver wrote:
> > > perl: Any iussues with perl/modperl? Besides modperl I will be running a
> > > perl application with a few hundred thousend lines of code...
> >
> > Wow. For reference last time I looked at slashcode it was about 25.000
> > lines I think. I wonder what kind of application would require more than
> > that amount of Perl code :-)
>
> I'm sure someone else will post a bigger number, but my application (IOP
> Electronic Journals) has 55000 lines of code (including the odd blank line
> and comment, of course). And we're always adding new stuff, so it only ever
> gets bigger.
>
> --
> Peter Haworth pmh@edison.ioppublishing.com
> "We don't care how they do it in New York."
>
Owen
--
USMail: InterGuide Communications, 230 Lyn Anne Court, Ann Arbor, MI
48103
Phone: +1 734 997-0922 FAX: +1 734 661-0324
mailto:osm@interguide.com http://www.interguide.com/~osm/
Re: [OT] Better Linux server platform: Redhat or SuSe?
Posted by ri...@annexia.org.
On Thu, Jul 04, 2002 at 07:06:30AM -0700, Nick Tonkin wrote:
>
> I'm confused. Since when did bloat surpass elegance as a measure of
> success in Perl programming?
:-)
I think it was more of a joke ... or at least primitive Perl
programmer willy-waving ..
Rich.
--
rich@annexia.org | Is your school part of http://www.schoolmaster.net ?
BiblioTech Ltd, Unit 2 Piper Centre, 50 Carnwath Road, London, SW6 3EG.
+44 20 7384 6917 | Free software: http://freshmeat.net/users/rwmj
Copyright © 2002 Richard Jones | GnuPG/PGP key from www.annexia.org
Re: [OT] Better Linux server platform: Redhat or SuSe?
Posted by Ganesan M <ga...@unixlover.com>.
> > > How do you run 'C' code from Apache/mod_perl?
Oops. I forgot to include the error message.
inlinetest_pl_c800.xs: In function `myfunction':
inlinetest_pl_c800.xs:24: request for member `pointer_status' in something
not a structure or union
G.
Re: [OT] Better Linux server platform: Redhat or SuSe?
Posted by Jean-Michel Hiver <jh...@mkdoc.com>.
> Owen, if you could give me any location/documentation/tutorial for
> how to use perlXS interface efficiently to access C progs, that will
> be great.
You might also want to take a look at SWIG (a search for 'SWIG' on
google will do as ususal), which looks quite interesting... it's a shame
that I have to get some sleep at night because I wish I had the chance
to take a long look at this neato piece of code.
Cheers,
--
IT'S TIME FOR A DIFFERENT KIND OF WEB
================================================================
Jean-Michel Hiver - Software Director
jhiver@mkdoc.com
+44 (0)114 255 8097
================================================================
VISIT HTTP://WWW.MKDOC.COM
Re: [OT] Better Linux server platform: Redhat or SuSe?
Posted by Ganesan M <ga...@unixlover.com>.
From: "Ged Haywood" <ge...@www2.jubileegroup.co.uk>
> Hi all,
>
> On Mon, 8 Jul 2002, Owen Scott Medd wrote:
>
> > > How do you run 'C' code from Apache/mod_perl?
> >
> > Using the perl XS interface usually... that's how we access our text
> > analysis routines which are in C.
>
> Or use Inline.pm if you don't want to get too deeply into it.
>
> Or put your compiled code in the cgi-bin directory if you really can't
> be bothered at all, but that's nasty.
>
> Ged.
Ged must be kidding about throwing C binaries in CGI-BIN directory.
Anyway, I am trying to use some C programs in CGI-PERL/mod_perl/Apache.
I have tried Inline C. I am not able to get the pointer working under
Inline C.
Owen, if you could give me any location/documentation/tutorial for how to
use
perlXS interface efficiently to access C progs, that will be great.
Here is my code. Any help will be appreciated.
#!/usr/bin/perl -w
use Inline C => DATA =>
INC=>'-I/path/to//h -I/usr/include -I/usr/local/include',
LIBS=>'-Lmy/libfiles1
-L/my/libfiles2';
print("Test from Perl program");
myfunction();
__END__
__C__
#include "myhfile.h"
/
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*/
void myfunction()
{
print("Test from C program");
if (my->pointer_status != 'y')
{
printf("My message here");
}
return;
}
Re: [OT] Better Linux server platform: Redhat or SuSe?
Posted by Ged Haywood <ge...@www2.jubileegroup.co.uk>.
Hi all,
On Mon, 8 Jul 2002, Owen Scott Medd wrote:
> On Mon, 8 Jul 2002, Ganesan M wrote:
> > > Schoolmaster.net, 167,000 lines of Perl code, another 30,000 lines of C.
> > >
> > > Rich.
> > >
> > How do you run 'C' code from Apache/mod_perl?
>
> Using the perl XS interface usually... that's how we access our text
> analysis routines which are in C.
Or use Inline.pm if you don't want to get too deeply into it.
Or put your compiled code in the cgi-bin directory if you really can't
be bothered at all, but that's nasty.
73,
Ged.
Re: [OT] Better Linux server platform: Redhat or SuSe?
Posted by Owen Scott Medd <os...@interguide.com>.
On Mon, 8 Jul 2002, Ganesan M wrote:
> > Schoolmaster.net, 167,000 lines of Perl code, another 30,000 lines of C.
> >
> > Rich.
> >
> How do you run 'C' code from Apache/mod_perl?
Using the perl XS interface usually... that's how we access our text
analysis routines which are in C.
Owen
--
USMail: InterGuide Communications, 230 Lyn Anne Court, Ann Arbor, MI 48103
phone: +1 734 997-0922 fax: +1 734 661-0324
mailto:osm@interguide.com http://www.interguide.com/~osm/
[ Sometimes wrong. Never in doubt. ]
Re: [OT] Better Linux server platform: Redhat or SuSe?
Posted by Ganesan M <ga...@unixlover.com>.
>
> Schoolmaster.net, 167,000 lines of Perl code, another 30,000 lines of C.
>
> Rich.
>
How do you run 'C' code from Apache/mod_perl?
G.
Re: [OT] Better Linux server platform: Redhat or SuSe?
Posted by "Frank D. Cringle" <fd...@cliwe.ping.de>.
Nick Tonkin <ni...@rlnt.net> writes:
> I'm confused. Since when did bloat surpass elegance as a measure of
> success in Perl programming?
Indeed. Generic question: "How many lines of code have you spent today?"
--
Frank Cringle, fdc@cliwe.ping.de
voice: (+49 7745) 928759; fax: 928761
Re: [OT] Better Linux server platform: Redhat or SuSe?
Posted by Owen Scott Medd <os...@interguide.com>.
I think the point is that you have complete non-trivial applications being
written in Perl.
Success is measured in application adoption, not in elegance. I've
worked many places that produced very elegant code, however all of those
places no longer exist. You need more than "cool" code to mark something
as a success.
Owen
On Thu, 4 Jul 2002, Nick Tonkin wrote:
> I'm confused. Since when did bloat surpass elegance as a measure of
> success in Perl programming?
>
> - nick
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Nick Tonkin {|8^)>
>
>
> On Thu, 4 Jul 2002 rich@annexia.org wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 02:41:38PM +0100, Peter Haworth wrote:
> > > On Wed, 3 Jul 2002 11:40:44 +0100, Jean-Michel Hiver wrote:
> > > > > perl: Any iussues with perl/modperl? Besides modperl I will be running a
> > > > > perl application with a few hundred thousend lines of code...
> > > >
> > > > Wow. For reference last time I looked at slashcode it was about 25.000
> > > > lines I think. I wonder what kind of application would require more than
> > > > that amount of Perl code :-)
> > >
> > > I'm sure someone else will post a bigger number, but my application (IOP
> > > Electronic Journals) has 55000 lines of code (including the odd blank line
> > > and comment, of course). And we're always adding new stuff, so it only ever
> > > gets bigger.
> >
> > Schoolmaster.net, 167,000 lines of Perl code, another 30,000 lines of C.
> >
> > Rich.
> >
> > --
> > rich@annexia.org | Is your school part of http://www.schoolmaster.net ?
> > BiblioTech Ltd, Unit 2 Piper Centre, 50 Carnwath Road, London, SW6 3EG.
> > +44 20 7384 6917 | Free software: http://freshmeat.net/users/rwmj
> > Copyright © 2002 Richard Jones | GnuPG/PGP key from www.annexia.org
> >
>
>
--
USMail: InterGuide Communications, 230 Lyn Anne Court, Ann Arbor, MI 48103
phone: +1 734 997-0922 fax: +1 734 661-0324
mailto:osm@interguide.com http://www.interguide.com/~osm/
[ Sometimes wrong. Never in doubt. ]
Re: [OT] Better Linux server platform: Redhat or SuSe?
Posted by Nick Tonkin <ni...@rlnt.net>.
I'm confused. Since when did bloat surpass elegance as a measure of
success in Perl programming?
- nick
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Nick Tonkin {|8^)>
On Thu, 4 Jul 2002 rich@annexia.org wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 02:41:38PM +0100, Peter Haworth wrote:
> > On Wed, 3 Jul 2002 11:40:44 +0100, Jean-Michel Hiver wrote:
> > > > perl: Any iussues with perl/modperl? Besides modperl I will be running a
> > > > perl application with a few hundred thousend lines of code...
> > >
> > > Wow. For reference last time I looked at slashcode it was about 25.000
> > > lines I think. I wonder what kind of application would require more than
> > > that amount of Perl code :-)
> >
> > I'm sure someone else will post a bigger number, but my application (IOP
> > Electronic Journals) has 55000 lines of code (including the odd blank line
> > and comment, of course). And we're always adding new stuff, so it only ever
> > gets bigger.
>
> Schoolmaster.net, 167,000 lines of Perl code, another 30,000 lines of C.
>
> Rich.
>
> --
> rich@annexia.org | Is your school part of http://www.schoolmaster.net ?
> BiblioTech Ltd, Unit 2 Piper Centre, 50 Carnwath Road, London, SW6 3EG.
> +44 20 7384 6917 | Free software: http://freshmeat.net/users/rwmj
> Copyright � 2002 Richard Jones | GnuPG/PGP key from www.annexia.org
>
Re: [OT] Better Linux server platform: Redhat or SuSe?
Posted by ri...@annexia.org.
On Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 02:41:38PM +0100, Peter Haworth wrote:
> On Wed, 3 Jul 2002 11:40:44 +0100, Jean-Michel Hiver wrote:
> > > perl: Any iussues with perl/modperl? Besides modperl I will be running a
> > > perl application with a few hundred thousend lines of code...
> >
> > Wow. For reference last time I looked at slashcode it was about 25.000
> > lines I think. I wonder what kind of application would require more than
> > that amount of Perl code :-)
>
> I'm sure someone else will post a bigger number, but my application (IOP
> Electronic Journals) has 55000 lines of code (including the odd blank line
> and comment, of course). And we're always adding new stuff, so it only ever
> gets bigger.
Schoolmaster.net, 167,000 lines of Perl code, another 30,000 lines of C.
Rich.
--
rich@annexia.org | Is your school part of http://www.schoolmaster.net ?
BiblioTech Ltd, Unit 2 Piper Centre, 50 Carnwath Road, London, SW6 3EG.
+44 20 7384 6917 | Free software: http://freshmeat.net/users/rwmj
Copyright © 2002 Richard Jones | GnuPG/PGP key from www.annexia.org
Re: [OT] Better Linux server platform: Redhat or SuSe?
Posted by Peter Haworth <pm...@edison.ioppublishing.com>.
On Wed, 3 Jul 2002 11:40:44 +0100, Jean-Michel Hiver wrote:
> > perl: Any iussues with perl/modperl? Besides modperl I will be running a
> > perl application with a few hundred thousend lines of code...
>
> Wow. For reference last time I looked at slashcode it was about 25.000
> lines I think. I wonder what kind of application would require more than
> that amount of Perl code :-)
I'm sure someone else will post a bigger number, but my application (IOP
Electronic Journals) has 55000 lines of code (including the odd blank line
and comment, of course). And we're always adding new stuff, so it only ever
gets bigger.
--
Peter Haworth pmh@edison.ioppublishing.com
"We don't care how they do it in New York."
Re: [OT] Better Linux server platform: Redhat or SuSe?
Posted by Jean-Michel Hiver <jh...@mkdoc.com>.
> perl: Any iussues with perl/modperl? Besides modperl I will be running a
> perl application with a few hundred thousend lines of code...
Wow. For reference last time I looked at slashcode it was about 25.000
lines I think. I wonder what kind of application would require more than
that amount of Perl code :-)
Cheers,
--
IT'S TIME FOR A DIFFERENT KIND OF WEB
================================================================
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jhiver@mkdoc.com
+44 (0)114 255 8097
================================================================
VISIT HTTP://WWW.MKDOC.COM
Re: [OT] Better Linux server platform: Redhat or SuSe?
Posted by Adi Fairbank <ad...@adiraj.org>.
David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
>
> > Sendmail: Does the system make it easy to replace sendmail with
> > another mailer of choice (qmail in my case)?
>
> Not as easy as it should be, but perfectly possible. I'm installing
> qmail from source, so I have to override the dependencies in several
> RPMs for "mailerdaemon". An alternative would be to build your own
> qmail rpms and have them provide that dependency. So far I've found
> that you can't make redhat install new without sendmail, but it's easy
> to rip out once the new install is done. I haven't found it appearing
> on upgrades, anyway. (I'm also using qmail).
>
I use Bruce Guenter's qmail+patches RPM which has been very stable, and also
has many added patches including the QMAILQUEUE patch that allows you to run
a site-wide spam filter or virus scanner.
His RPMs can be found at:
http://untroubled.org/
http://untroubled.org/qmail+patches/
-Adi
Re: [OT] Better Linux server platform: Redhat or SuSe?
Posted by Dave Hodgkinson <da...@hodgkinson.org>.
Valerio_Valdez Paolini <pa...@students.cs.unibo.it> writes:
> I never used RH RPMs for Apache and mod_perl, mostly because of DSO
> issues.
I'm running stock RH RPM apache/mod_perl on some fairly hairy sites
(hand-crafted mod_perl, slashcode etc.) with _no_ problems. And that
was through the current round of upgrades.
FWIW.
--
David Hodgkinson, Wizard for Hire http://www.davehodgkinson.com
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star http://www.deep-purple.com
All the Purple Family Tree news http://www.slashrock.com
Interim Technical Director, Web Architecture Consultant for hire
Re: [OT] Better Linux server platform: Redhat or SuSe?
Posted by Valerio_Valdez Paolini <pa...@students.cs.unibo.it>.
On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, Rob Nagler wrote:
> David Dyer-Bennet writes:
> > Obviously hardware RAID will save CPU cycles somewhat, and SCSI disks
> > of the right type will increase IO bandwidth somewhat, but if you're
> > not short of those things and still want the added security of
> > mirroring, I think the software RAID is a viable option.
>
> Harware RAID is usually hotswappable, which is quite nice.
More, you can make redundant RAID and even have disks shared by two boxes
:)
Ciao, Valerio
Valerio Paolini, <http://130.136.3.200/~paolini>
--------------------------------------------------
what is open-source about? Learn, and then give back
Re: [OT] Better Linux server platform: Redhat or SuSe?
Posted by Rob Nagler <na...@bivio.biz>.
David Dyer-Bennet writes:
> Obviously hardware RAID will save CPU cycles somewhat, and SCSI disks
> of the right type will increase IO bandwidth somewhat, but if you're
> not short of those things and still want the added security of
> mirroring, I think the software RAID is a viable option.
Harware RAID is usually hotswappable, which is quite nice.
Rob
Re: [OT] Better Linux server platform: Redhat or SuSe?
Posted by David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net>.
Valerio_Valdez Paolini <pa...@students.cs.unibo.it> writes:
> > Software-based RAID 1: Is it usable (only for a data partition, not
> > required for the root partition)? Is it easy to recover from a broken
> > disk?
>
> If possible, consider using hardware RAID, like Mylex ones; they are
> quite expensive, because of SCSI disks, but you gain cpu cycles;
But my box isn't short of CPU cycles, so I'd be paying that price for
no gain.
Obviously hardware RAID will save CPU cycles somewhat, and SCSI disks
of the right type will increase IO bandwidth somewhat, but if you're
not short of those things and still want the added security of
mirroring, I think the software RAID is a viable option.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b@dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test
John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net
Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/
New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info
Re: [OT] Better Linux server platform: Redhat or SuSe?
Posted by Valerio_Valdez Paolini <pa...@students.cs.unibo.it>.
> Software-based RAID 1: Is it usable (only for a data partition, not
> required for the root partition)? Is it easy to recover from a broken
> disk?
If possible, consider using hardware RAID, like Mylex ones; they are
quite expensive, because of SCSI disks, but you gain cpu cycles;
I've used Mylex cards on four Red Hat boxes for four years without a
problem, and monitored hw status using /proc file system.
There are also IDE motherboards with RAID, I own one of them, but I use
the "eight devices" feature instead of raid.
Consider also the use of kickstart utility shipped with RH, it makes
possible to build your own installation disks; of course, Debian also
is very powerful at this.
I never used RH RPMs for Apache and mod_perl, mostly because of DSO
issues.
You can also build a card to operate reset buttons remotely.
Double power line is a plus ;)
Ciao, Valerio
Valerio Paolini, <http://130.136.3.200/~paolini>
--------------------------------------------------
what is open-source about? Learn, and then give back
Re: [OT] Better Linux server platform: Redhat or SuSe?
Posted by David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net>.
I'm using RedHat on my servers; can't do comparison to SuSe since I
don't know it, but I'll comment on the RedHat side. I got into RedHat
because of the RPM utility, around 4.2 I think, and have stayed with
it because nothing has yet annoyed me enough to switch.
Gerd Knops <ge...@bitart.com> writes:
> Besides general observations I am specifically interested in answers
> to these questions:
>
> Apache/modperl installation and updates: I assume installation is
> straight forward, how about keeping current? As those are remotely
> administered platforms, chances are the OS may not be kept current. So
> is it still easy to deal with security updates (Apache, sshd, bind
> etc) when the platform is a couple of years old? With FreeBSD this has
> become somewhat harder lately (still running 3.x, but the ports system
> doesn't support 3.x any longer).
I'm still with RPMs for these components, and am hoping intensely to
be able to stay there because it's *so* easy to keep up to date.
> Remote maintability: Is it possible to remotely upgrade between OS
> versions for either of those platforms (not a must, but would be a
> plus)?
Yes. I'm assuming you understand it's always dangerous to do this; do
you at least have people who you can call on the phone to push the
reset button if you screw up? With the GRUB loader that's appeared in
recent RedHat's, the biggest easy mistake has gone away (you no longer
have to do the equivalent of running lilo before rebooting). Of
course if the new kernel itself doesn't boot, you're sunk (need
somebody at the console to select an alternate boot kernel). The
last umpteen kernel upgrades I've made, I've never screwed up badly
enough to need to use the reset button, and since the systems are
physically right in front of me I haven't been all that careful.
I haven't done this, but it looks like it's possible to configure a
RedHat system to boot with serial console. If you have the sort of
facilities I consider normal for a multi-continental WAN, can you tie
the serial port of your server machine to a terminal server and get
remote access to the console? That would work around most of the
problems with remote maintenance.
> Sendmail: Does the system make it easy to replace sendmail with
> another mailer of choice (qmail in my case)?
Not as easy as it should be, but perfectly possible. I'm installing
qmail from source, so I have to override the dependencies in several
RPMs for "mailerdaemon". An alternative would be to build your own
qmail rpms and have them provide that dependency. So far I've found
that you can't make redhat install new without sendmail, but it's easy
to rip out once the new install is done. I haven't found it appearing
on upgrades, anyway. (I'm also using qmail).
> Footprint: Is it easy to weed out unused system components to have a
> smaller footprint of the OS? Or does that mean fighting the installer
> left and right?
For initial installs, you can pick each package individually. Of
course that's a very long list to review. After the initial install,
you can remove packages very easily (one of the great benefits of
RPM). On upgrades, it only upgrades packages already installed (and
may ask to bring in dependencies, if they've changed).
> perl: Any iussues with perl/modperl? Besides modperl I will be running
> a perl application with a few hundred thousend lines of code...
I'm not stressing it hard enough to tell. The RPM version is working
fine for me, but I'm new to mod_perl, don't have much using it yet.
> Security: Is it easy to 'tie down' the system?
No harder than any other system, anyway. The /etc/rc.d/init.d
structure for controlling subsystems is very useful; that and xinetd
are the two places anything is likely to be started. And tools like
netstat are around (I like to check and make sure nothing I don't know
about is listening to ports, for example, as a sanity check that I've
really limited it to the things I want.)
> Software-based RAID 1: Is it usable (only for a data partition, not
> required for the root partition)? Is it easy to recover from a broken
> disk?
I'm using it on my primary web server for the user/web partition,
seems to work fine. I've survived a broken disk and a broken
controller, I think. (With today's prices, I tend to discard
questionable components rather than pursuing diagnosis in detail.)
> Robustness: While almost all systems I have are/will be on UPSs, they
> still tend to occasionally be 'unplugged' (not shut down cleanly), be
> it due to an empty or dead UPS battery, someone tripping over or
> accidentaly unplugging the power cable etc. etc. Does the system tend
> to survive the then due fsck without manual intervention? Better yet,
> would it be possible to mount / and /usr read-only, and have a /var
> partition that (if the worst should happen) can be recreated on the
> fly?
If you're doing a new install, use EXT3 (standard in RH7.2 and up at
least), which is a journaling extension to EXT2. Doesn't have the
large-directory advantages of ReiserFS, and you might maybe want to
use ReserFS maybe; I dunno, haven't used it. EXT3 survives crashes
*perfectly* so far (of course nothing is guaranteed to *always*
survive perfectly).
You should also look into appropriate connections between the UPS and
the server to have it shut down in an orderly fashion when the
2-minute-warning comes on. I'm trying to do that myself and having
endless trouble, probably with cable wiring, but especially for
unattended systems you *really* want the cleanest shutdowns possible.
> Any other oddities one should be aware of?
Well, it's so much what I'm used to that I may not be aware of them.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b@dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test
John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net
Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/
New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info