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Posted to dev@roller.apache.org by Dave Levy <Da...@Sun.COM> on 2006/11/27 11:03:59 UTC
[Fwd: Re: spaces in tags (from 3.1 discussion)]
I see your point.
I suppose I assume that a tag query will be formulate via a specific
query interface or application, which is why Elias made his points.
Search engines compete via their relevance tests and sort orders. If
querying a tag base, I expect to use a specialist tool that understands
the join semantic. i.e. query:radio astronomy = radio+astronomy (It
would be nice if it understood NOT as well). I am not saying I'm right,
merely that I think I'm consistent.
I'd also add, that you may be over reliant on the thought and
correctness of the tag authors, since you suggest you must have the
results of a join, and do not want to explore the sets containing the
tags alone.
I'm going to delete my redundant address blocks.
Craig L Russell wrote:
> For me the issue is specificity of the tag.
>
> If I am interested in radio astronomy, I might have zero interest in
> radio and minimal interest in astronomy. My experience with search
> engines is that given a query "radio astronomy", search engines are
> more likely to return results based on how many occurrences of "radio"
> and how many occurrences of "astronomy" there are, and only minimally
> consider how many occurrences of "radio astronomy" there are in a
> candidate article.
>
> Basically, I have to perform a more specialized query if I want to
> exclude occurrences of radio and astronomy in favor of those
> candidates that contain "radio astronomy".
>
> Bottom line, I think that there is value in tag "radio astronomy"
> which is more than the sum of "radio" and "astronomy".
>
> Craig
>
> On Nov 27, 2006, at 12:09 AM, Dave Levy wrote:
>
>> I don't think I am really considering the URL syntax so much.
>>
>> Its just that when tagging an article (or bookmark) one should
>> consider the queries that will be made. The reason for tagging is to
>> find the content again, or participate in a folksonomy that tells one
>> something. It seems to me that you have to consider the use of the
>> tag as one allocates it. This is why I choose (now) between compound
>> nouns and multiple words. So while I can agree to ignore the UI, the
>> issue of tag design and meaning does not go away.
>>
>> I would tag the bookmark as "radio astronomy" and retrieve it using
>> radio+astrononomy, while others might find the content using
>> astronomy and I add to the frequency and diminish the discrimination
>> of both tags.
>>
>> You can see my tag lists at
>>
>> http://del.icio.us/DaveLevy and
>> http://blogs.sun.com/DaveLevy/page/MoreTagsLinksBeta,
>>
>> which is a very short version of the tag cloud (and interesting
>> includes Food+Drink where I am using + as synonym for "and"/"&"
>> because being a UNIX guy for so long I don't trust software to
>> interpretate the & as a straightforward character.
>>
>> My reason for banging on is I think that actually our problem is that
>> we don't have an agreement on how to do the join not on how to
>> delimit the tags, and this will become more important if we try and
>> manage/maintain tag clouds over multiple applications and instances
>> e.g. roller & technorati
>>
>> Elias Torres wrote:
>>> I actually use the + for joins. /roller/handle/tags/radio+astronomy
>>> and if you want C++ you need to escape it with the hex equivalent
>>> C%2B2%B or whatever it is. I think we need to stop thinking too much
>>> about typing tag queries in the URL so much, because not everyone
>>> knows how to do that. We'll have more places in the UI where you'll
>>> type a tag and we'll navigate there.
>>>
>>> -Elias
>>>
>>> On 11/24/06, Dave Levy <Da...@sun.com> wrote:
>>>> Thanks Jeffrey, I didn't know about the "+" = " " thingy - it rather
>>>> negates what I have been saying.
>>>>
>>>> I had sought to reserve the "+" for a join, so that you tag your
>>>> article
>>>> tags:radio astronomy so that it would be found in a list queried on
>>>> radio, or astronomy or both radio and astronomy, obviously the last
>>>> list
>>>> would be shorter and a query on radioastronomy would fail.
>>>>
>>>> Jeffrey Blattman wrote:
>>>> > maybe it's because i don't really "get" tagging, but what
>>>> confuses me
>>>> > is that some tags cannot be represented w/ a single word. for
>>>> example,
>>>> > i might want to tag something with "radio astronomy". tagging it
>>>> with
>>>> > "radio" or "astronomy" doesn't capture the intent at all. i would
>>>> > naturally want/try to quote the phrase.
>>>> >
>>>> > p.s., you can use the "+" char to encode a space in a url ... a
>>>> little
>>>> > nicer than %2 or whatever.
>>>> >
>>>> > Allen Gilliland wrote:
>>>> >> My opinion is that the way it works now is still the best, where
>>>> tags
>>>> >> have to be a single word and if you want to do phrases then use
>>>> >> underscores or dashes.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I think the main reason against allowing for tag phrases is
>>>> >> complexity. You are increasing the complexity both on the user
>>>> input
>>>> >> side as well as on the retrieval side and for what I consider a
>>>> >> marginal benefit. On the UI side of things I think it's
>>>> confusing to
>>>> >> many users to allow for quoted phrases. Then on the retrieval side
>>>> >> you are also confusing things because how do you get at the url for
>>>> >> "modern art"? /tags/modern%2Bart ... that's not something users can
>>>> >> type in by hand which is part of what's nice about forcing single
>>>> >> word tags.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> As for Elias' suggestion of allowing phrases and converting the
>>>> >> spaces to underscores, I think that's a little dicey. For one, it
>>>> >> still leaves the user confusion aspect around using quoted phrases,
>>>> >> which I believe most users don't really want. On the technical
>>>> side
>>>> >> I think you may be playing with fire though because why should the
>>>> >> tag "modern art" become modern_art instead of modern-art. And
>>>> >> regardless of which you convert to, is that the value stored in the
>>>> >> db? That would mean that when the user comes back to that entry
>>>> the
>>>> >> tags list will show modern_art instead of their original tag phrase
>>>> >> which can be confusing for users as well.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> My belief is that the reason why tagging has been successful at
>>>> >> places like del.icio.us and flickr is because the rules are
>>>> short and
>>>> >> simple. Tags are separated by spaces, period. It's a slight
>>>> blow in
>>>> >> functionality but keeps the usability as simple and easy as
>>>> possible.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> -- Allen
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Anil Gangolli wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Oh. I must have missed the discussion about not supporting spaces
>>>> >>> in tags because I would at least have made an attempt to convince
>>>> >>> people to support spaces in tags.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> It comes up for tags like "modern art" that are not really
>>>> >>> meaningful to separate.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Regarding Elias's proposal, I initially felt against it,
>>>> because I'd
>>>> >>> rather use real spaces in the tags. That's still the case, but
>>>> less
>>>> >>> so, because I did a quick Technorati sampling, and there already
>>>> >>> seems to be a sizable rift between the true space users and the
>>>> >>> underscore users.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> So for example Technorati lists 494 posts using "modern_art"
>>>> >>> compared to 981 using "modern art" and differences in the
>>>> thousands
>>>> >>> for "george bush" compared to "george_bush", with the latter
>>>> tag far
>>>> >>> in the lead.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> --a.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elias Torres"
>>>> <el...@torrez.us>
>>>> >>> To: <ro...@incubator.apache.org>
>>>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 4:09 PM
>>>> >>> Subject: Re: Apache Roller 3.1RC1 (incubating) ready for testing
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Allen Gilliland wrote:
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Anil Gangolli wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> I installed 3.1RC1 on my dev box. Seemed to be clean using a
>>>> >>>>>> fresh db
>>>> >>>>>> installation and 3.0 required-jars package.
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> I was trying the tag-related functionality out and I see a few
>>>> >>>>>> issues:
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> (1) The tag entry field on the entry edit page uses space
>>>> >>>>>> separation
>>>> >>>>>> and doesn't seem to accomodate tags that include spaces. I
>>>> tried
>>>> >>>>>> quoting with double-quotes; that didn't seem to work.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Yes, that is the expected behavior. We talked about this
>>>> when we
>>>> >>>>> were
>>>> >>>>> evaluating the tags proposal and decided that most sites seem
>>>> to be
>>>> >>>>> using the solution that we have, where tags cannot be multi word
>>>> >>>>> phrases.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> I now have a requirement at IBM to support spaces with the
>>>> following
>>>> >>>> caveat. If you enter "elias is cool" it will be stored as
>>>> >>>> elias_is_cool.
>>>> >>>> In other words, we support it as an input (double quotes) but
>>>> we don't
>>>> >>>> store it that way. Are you guys cool with it?
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> -Elias
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> (2) The user guide link in the JSP footer seems to point off to
>>>> >>>>>> an old
>>>> >>>>>> 2.x guide. I was looking for and couldn't find the
>>>> documentation in
>>>> >>>>>> the 3.1 guides on the various forms of URLs, specifically I was
>>>> >>>>>> looking to test the tag-based URLs. I know I've seen it
>>>> somewhere,
>>>> >>>>>> but I can't remember where.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Hmm. For the user guide I think it would be nice if these
>>>> kinds of
>>>> >>>>> links pointed to urls within the app, like /roller-ui/docs/*,
>>>> for
>>>> >>>>> user
>>>> >>>>> documentation about the current app version.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> I may also take this opportunity to throw out an idea I had a
>>>> little
>>>> >>>>> while ago for documentation that was related to this. It
>>>> seems to me
>>>> >>>>> that since blogging is supposed to website publishing made easy
>>>> >>>>> then one
>>>> >>>>> of the key components of a really mature blog system would be
>>>> good
>>>> >>>>> documentation throughout the application. I haven't been a big
>>>> >>>>> documentation contributor in the past, but I think that's more
>>>> >>>>> because I
>>>> >>>>> felt the app needed more work and less docs at the time. Now
>>>> that
>>>> >>>>> the
>>>> >>>>> app is getting more and more mature it may be time to
>>>> consider a nice
>>>> >>>>> solution for providing rich documentation.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> So what I had been thinking about was a way where we could write
>>>> >>>>> all of
>>>> >>>>> our documentation in small and easily reusable components,
>>>> >>>>> possibly in
>>>> >>>>> xml, which we could easily use to either 1) provide a full
>>>> help guide
>>>> >>>>> document (aka user guide) or 2) take bits and pieces of the docs
>>>> >>>>> and be
>>>> >>>>> able to insert them directly into the appropriate pages.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> So for example, if a user is on the 'Templates' page and is
>>>> >>>>> working on
>>>> >>>>> customizing their blog then we could have some documentation
>>>> hooks
>>>> >>>>> which
>>>> >>>>> provide contextual help info like ...
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> 1. what is this page for?
>>>> >>>>> 2. what can i do on this page?
>>>> >>>>> 3. how do i use this page?
>>>> >>>>> 4. what do each of the fields on this page mean?
>>>> >>>>> 5. how does this affect my blog?
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> So for the 'Templates' page the top of the page may provide
>>>> quick
>>>> >>>>> links
>>>> >>>>> which give a couple paragraphs of text explaining what the
>>>> page is
>>>> >>>>> for
>>>> >>>>> and what you do on the page. Then you have the large text
>>>> area where
>>>> >>>>> you can modify your templates which could have a little tool
>>>> tip icon
>>>> >>>>> next to it which would tell the user what that field is for.
>>>> Then
>>>> >>>>> possibly at the bottom of the page we include a quick reference
>>>> >>>>> sheet of
>>>> >>>>> the models and macros to help users while they are authoring
>>>> >>>>> templates.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> One of the things that I think Roller has been hurting on is
>>>> >>>>> usability
>>>> >>>>> and in my mind of the most important elements of usability
>>>> when it
>>>> >>>>> comes
>>>> >>>>> to web tools is contextual documentation. I think doing
>>>> something
>>>> >>>>> like
>>>> >>>>> this could really help make Roller a more user friendly blogging
>>>> >>>>> system.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> (3) Tags don't seem to be displayed anywhere in the "basic"
>>>> theme at
>>>> >>>>>> all. Shouldn't we update this to show tags on entries,
>>>> including an
>>>> >>>>>> actual rel tag ?
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> I think there may not have been any real consensus about whether
>>>> >>>>> or not
>>>> >>>>> to promote tags in the themes since in many cases users may
>>>> not be
>>>> >>>>> using
>>>> >>>>> tags.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> (4) I couldn't get anything to show up in the "Hot Tags"
>>>> area of the
>>>> >>>>>> front page. Haven't investigated what is happening yet;
>>>> this may be
>>>> >>>>>> my own problem.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Dunno about that one.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> -- Allen
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> --a.
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave" <sn...@gmail.com>
>>>> >>>>>> To: <ro...@incubator.apache.org>
>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 5:57 PM
>>>> >>>>>> Subject: Apache Roller 3.1RC1 (incubating) ready for testing
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> Thank you and yes, I meant 3.1.
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> With releasing 3.1, re-releasing 2.3.1 and working on 3.2 I've
>>>> >>>>>>> got a
>>>> >>>>>>> couple
>>>> >>>>>>> too many versions floating around in my head.
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> - Dave
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> On 11/20/06, Jeffrey Blattman <Je...@sun.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>>> did you mean 3.1 RC1, or are we skipping 3.1?
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> Dave wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>>> > I've merged all applicable bug fixes from trunk to the
>>>> >>>>>>>> roller_3.1
>>>> >>>>>>>> > branch and prepared a first release candidate for the 3.1
>>>> >>>>>>>> release.
>>>> >>>>>>>> You
>>>> >>>>>>>> > can find the release files and latest 3.1 docs here:
>>>> >>>>>>>> >
>>>> >>>>>>>> > http://people.apache.org/~snoopdave/apache-roller-3.1/
>>>> >>>>>>>> >
>>>> >>>>>>>> > Here's the What's New in Roller 3.1 page:
>>>> >>>>>>>> >
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> http://rollerweblogger.org/wiki/Wiki.jsp?page=Roller_3.1_WhatsNew
>>>> >>>>>>>> >
>>>> >>>>>>>> > Release candidates are for testing purposes only.
>>>> >>>>>>>> >
>>>> >>>>>>>> > Please help out. The sooner you download, test and report
>>>> >>>>>>>> bugs the
>>>> >>>>>>>> > sooner we'll be able to fix them and get the release
>>>> out. So
>>>> >>>>>>>> please
>>>> >>>>>>>> > help out the project and take RC1 for a spin.
>>>> >>>>>>>> >
>>>> >>>>>>>> > - Dave
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Dave
>>>>
>>>> *David Levy *
>>
>> --
>> Dave
>>
>> *David Levy *
>
> Craig Russell
> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>
--
Dave
*David Levy *
*Principal Engineer*
*Sun Microsystems Ltd.*
55, King William St.,
London EC4R 9ND
United Kingdom
Phone +44 (0) 20 7469 9908/x18308
Mobile +44 (0) 7710-360922
Blog http://blogs.sun.com/DaveLevy
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--
Dave
*David Levy *
*Principal Engineer*
*Sun Microsystems Ltd.*
55, King William St.,
London EC4R 9ND
United Kingdom
Phone +44 (0) 20 7469 9908/x18308
Mobile +44 (0) 7710-360922
Blog http://blogs.sun.com/DaveLevy
Email David.Levy@Sun.COM
Sun Proprietary & Confidential . This e-mail message is for the sole use
of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and
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please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the
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Re: [Fwd: Re: spaces in tags (from 3.1 discussion)]
Posted by Craig L Russell <Cr...@Sun.COM>.
Hi Dave,
Thanks for your thoughtful post.
On Nov 27, 2006, at 2:03 AM, Dave Levy wrote:
>
> I see your point.
>
> I suppose I assume that a tag query will be formulate via a
> specific query interface or application, which is why Elias made
> his points.
>
> Search engines compete via their relevance tests and sort orders.
> If querying a tag base, I expect to use a specialist tool that
> understands the join semantic. i.e. query:radio astronomy = radio
> +astronomy (It would be nice if it understood NOT as well). I am
> not saying I'm right, merely that I think I'm consistent.
>
> I'd also add, that you may be over-reliant on the thought and
> correctness of the tag authors,
It would be nice if we could rely on the thoughtfulness of tag
authors, but in Web 2.0 I don't know that this is a good assumption.
Maybe this will be fixed in Web 2.1. ;-)
> since you suggest you must have the results of a join, and do not
> want to explore the sets containing the tags alone.
It is interesting to consider whether a query on "radio astronomy"
should *only* return results containing that exact phrase or should
merely rank those candidate articles containing the phrase higher
than those containing "radio" and "astronomy" alone.
But I'm afraid that much more discussion on this topic might lead to
injunctions by search engine technology patent holders. ;-)
Anyway, as I'm not an expert in either of these domains (tagging and
search), I should probably simply record my impressions and let
others decide.
>
> I'm going to delete my redundant address blocks.
I'm often a victim of this phenomenon, so it's good to see folks try
to reduce its occurrence.
Regards,
Craig
>
> Craig L Russell wrote:
>> For me the issue is specificity of the tag.
>>
>> If I am interested in radio astronomy, I might have zero interest
>> in radio and minimal interest in astronomy. My experience with
>> search engines is that given a query "radio astronomy", search
>> engines are more likely to return results based on how many
>> occurrences of "radio" and how many occurrences of "astronomy"
>> there are, and only minimally consider how many occurrences of
>> "radio astronomy" there are in a candidate article.
>>
>> Basically, I have to perform a more specialized query if I want to
>> exclude occurrences of radio and astronomy in favor of those
>> candidates that contain "radio astronomy".
>>
>> Bottom line, I think that there is value in tag "radio astronomy"
>> which is more than the sum of "radio" and "astronomy".
>>
>> Craig
>>
>> On Nov 27, 2006, at 12:09 AM, Dave Levy wrote:
>>
>>> I don't think I am really considering the URL syntax so much.
>>>
>>> Its just that when tagging an article (or bookmark) one should
>>> consider the queries that will be made. The reason for tagging is
>>> to find the content again, or participate in a folksonomy that
>>> tells one something. It seems to me that you have to consider the
>>> use of the tag as one allocates it. This is why I choose (now)
>>> between compound nouns and multiple words. So while I can agree
>>> to ignore the UI, the issue of tag design and meaning does not go
>>> away.
>>>
>>> I would tag the bookmark as "radio astronomy" and retrieve it
>>> using radio+astrononomy, while others might find the content
>>> using astronomy and I add to the frequency and diminish the
>>> discrimination of both tags.
>>>
>>> You can see my tag lists at
>>>
>>> http://del.icio.us/DaveLevy and http://blogs.sun.com/DaveLevy/
>>> page/MoreTagsLinksBeta,
>>>
>>> which is a very short version of the tag cloud (and interesting
>>> includes Food+Drink where I am using + as synonym for "and"/"&"
>>> because being a UNIX guy for so long I don't trust software to
>>> interpretate the & as a straightforward character.
>>>
>>> My reason for banging on is I think that actually our problem is
>>> that we don't have an agreement on how to do the join not on how
>>> to delimit the tags, and this will become more important if we
>>> try and manage/maintain tag clouds over multiple applications and
>>> instances e.g. roller & technorati
>>>
>>> Elias Torres wrote:
>>>> I actually use the + for joins. /roller/handle/tags/radio+astronomy
>>>> and if you want C++ you need to escape it with the hex equivalent
>>>> C%2B2%B or whatever it is. I think we need to stop thinking too
>>>> much
>>>> about typing tag queries in the URL so much, because not everyone
>>>> knows how to do that. We'll have more places in the UI where you'll
>>>> type a tag and we'll navigate there.
>>>>
>>>> -Elias
>>>>
>>>> On 11/24/06, Dave Levy <Da...@sun.com> wrote:
>>>>> Thanks Jeffrey, I didn't know about the "+" = " " thingy - it
>>>>> rather
>>>>> negates what I have been saying.
>>>>>
>>>>> I had sought to reserve the "+" for a join, so that you tag
>>>>> your article
>>>>> tags:radio astronomy so that it would be found in a list
>>>>> queried on
>>>>> radio, or astronomy or both radio and astronomy, obviously the
>>>>> last list
>>>>> would be shorter and a query on radioastronomy would fail.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jeffrey Blattman wrote:
>>>>> > maybe it's because i don't really "get" tagging, but what
>>>>> confuses me
>>>>> > is that some tags cannot be represented w/ a single word. for
>>>>> example,
>>>>> > i might want to tag something with "radio astronomy". tagging
>>>>> it with
>>>>> > "radio" or "astronomy" doesn't capture the intent at all. i
>>>>> would
>>>>> > naturally want/try to quote the phrase.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > p.s., you can use the "+" char to encode a space in a url ...
>>>>> a little
>>>>> > nicer than %2 or whatever.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Allen Gilliland wrote:
>>>>> >> My opinion is that the way it works now is still the best,
>>>>> where tags
>>>>> >> have to be a single word and if you want to do phrases then use
>>>>> >> underscores or dashes.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> I think the main reason against allowing for tag phrases is
>>>>> >> complexity. You are increasing the complexity both on the
>>>>> user input
>>>>> >> side as well as on the retrieval side and for what I consider a
>>>>> >> marginal benefit. On the UI side of things I think it's
>>>>> confusing to
>>>>> >> many users to allow for quoted phrases. Then on the
>>>>> retrieval side
>>>>> >> you are also confusing things because how do you get at the
>>>>> url for
>>>>> >> "modern art"? /tags/modern%2Bart ... that's not something
>>>>> users can
>>>>> >> type in by hand which is part of what's nice about forcing
>>>>> single
>>>>> >> word tags.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> As for Elias' suggestion of allowing phrases and converting the
>>>>> >> spaces to underscores, I think that's a little dicey. For
>>>>> one, it
>>>>> >> still leaves the user confusion aspect around using quoted
>>>>> phrases,
>>>>> >> which I believe most users don't really want. On the
>>>>> technical side
>>>>> >> I think you may be playing with fire though because why
>>>>> should the
>>>>> >> tag "modern art" become modern_art instead of modern-art. And
>>>>> >> regardless of which you convert to, is that the value stored
>>>>> in the
>>>>> >> db? That would mean that when the user comes back to that
>>>>> entry the
>>>>> >> tags list will show modern_art instead of their original tag
>>>>> phrase
>>>>> >> which can be confusing for users as well.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> My belief is that the reason why tagging has been successful at
>>>>> >> places like del.icio.us and flickr is because the rules are
>>>>> short and
>>>>> >> simple. Tags are separated by spaces, period. It's a slight
>>>>> blow in
>>>>> >> functionality but keeps the usability as simple and easy as
>>>>> possible.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> -- Allen
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Anil Gangolli wrote:
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Oh. I must have missed the discussion about not supporting
>>>>> spaces
>>>>> >>> in tags because I would at least have made an attempt to
>>>>> convince
>>>>> >>> people to support spaces in tags.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> It comes up for tags like "modern art" that are not really
>>>>> >>> meaningful to separate.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Regarding Elias's proposal, I initially felt against it,
>>>>> because I'd
>>>>> >>> rather use real spaces in the tags. That's still the case,
>>>>> but less
>>>>> >>> so, because I did a quick Technorati sampling, and there
>>>>> already
>>>>> >>> seems to be a sizable rift between the true space users and
>>>>> the
>>>>> >>> underscore users.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> So for example Technorati lists 494 posts using "modern_art"
>>>>> >>> compared to 981 using "modern art" and differences in the
>>>>> thousands
>>>>> >>> for "george bush" compared to "george_bush", with the
>>>>> latter tag far
>>>>> >>> in the lead.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> --a.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elias Torres"
>>>>> <el...@torrez.us>
>>>>> >>> To: <ro...@incubator.apache.org>
>>>>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 4:09 PM
>>>>> >>> Subject: Re: Apache Roller 3.1RC1 (incubating) ready for
>>>>> testing
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> Allen Gilliland wrote:
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> Anil Gangolli wrote:
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>> I installed 3.1RC1 on my dev box. Seemed to be clean
>>>>> using a
>>>>> >>>>>> fresh db
>>>>> >>>>>> installation and 3.0 required-jars package.
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>> I was trying the tag-related functionality out and I see
>>>>> a few
>>>>> >>>>>> issues:
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>> (1) The tag entry field on the entry edit page uses space
>>>>> >>>>>> separation
>>>>> >>>>>> and doesn't seem to accomodate tags that include
>>>>> spaces. I tried
>>>>> >>>>>> quoting with double-quotes; that didn't seem to work.
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> Yes, that is the expected behavior. We talked about this
>>>>> when we
>>>>> >>>>> were
>>>>> >>>>> evaluating the tags proposal and decided that most sites
>>>>> seem to be
>>>>> >>>>> using the solution that we have, where tags cannot be
>>>>> multi word
>>>>> >>>>> phrases.
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> I now have a requirement at IBM to support spaces with the
>>>>> following
>>>>> >>>> caveat. If you enter "elias is cool" it will be stored as
>>>>> >>>> elias_is_cool.
>>>>> >>>> In other words, we support it as an input (double quotes)
>>>>> but we don't
>>>>> >>>> store it that way. Are you guys cool with it?
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> -Elias
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>> (2) The user guide link in the JSP footer seems to point
>>>>> off to
>>>>> >>>>>> an old
>>>>> >>>>>> 2.x guide. I was looking for and couldn't find the
>>>>> documentation in
>>>>> >>>>>> the 3.1 guides on the various forms of URLs,
>>>>> specifically I was
>>>>> >>>>>> looking to test the tag-based URLs. I know I've seen it
>>>>> somewhere,
>>>>> >>>>>> but I can't remember where.
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> Hmm. For the user guide I think it would be nice if
>>>>> these kinds of
>>>>> >>>>> links pointed to urls within the app, like /roller-ui/
>>>>> docs/*, for
>>>>> >>>>> user
>>>>> >>>>> documentation about the current app version.
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> I may also take this opportunity to throw out an idea I
>>>>> had a little
>>>>> >>>>> while ago for documentation that was related to this. It
>>>>> seems to me
>>>>> >>>>> that since blogging is supposed to website publishing
>>>>> made easy
>>>>> >>>>> then one
>>>>> >>>>> of the key components of a really mature blog system
>>>>> would be good
>>>>> >>>>> documentation throughout the application. I haven't been
>>>>> a big
>>>>> >>>>> documentation contributor in the past, but I think that's
>>>>> more
>>>>> >>>>> because I
>>>>> >>>>> felt the app needed more work and less docs at the time.
>>>>> Now that
>>>>> >>>>> the
>>>>> >>>>> app is getting more and more mature it may be time to
>>>>> consider a nice
>>>>> >>>>> solution for providing rich documentation.
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> So what I had been thinking about was a way where we
>>>>> could write
>>>>> >>>>> all of
>>>>> >>>>> our documentation in small and easily reusable components,
>>>>> >>>>> possibly in
>>>>> >>>>> xml, which we could easily use to either 1) provide a
>>>>> full help guide
>>>>> >>>>> document (aka user guide) or 2) take bits and pieces of
>>>>> the docs
>>>>> >>>>> and be
>>>>> >>>>> able to insert them directly into the appropriate pages.
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> So for example, if a user is on the 'Templates' page and is
>>>>> >>>>> working on
>>>>> >>>>> customizing their blog then we could have some
>>>>> documentation hooks
>>>>> >>>>> which
>>>>> >>>>> provide contextual help info like ...
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> 1. what is this page for?
>>>>> >>>>> 2. what can i do on this page?
>>>>> >>>>> 3. how do i use this page?
>>>>> >>>>> 4. what do each of the fields on this page mean?
>>>>> >>>>> 5. how does this affect my blog?
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> So for the 'Templates' page the top of the page may
>>>>> provide quick
>>>>> >>>>> links
>>>>> >>>>> which give a couple paragraphs of text explaining what
>>>>> the page is
>>>>> >>>>> for
>>>>> >>>>> and what you do on the page. Then you have the large
>>>>> text area where
>>>>> >>>>> you can modify your templates which could have a little
>>>>> tool tip icon
>>>>> >>>>> next to it which would tell the user what that field is
>>>>> for. Then
>>>>> >>>>> possibly at the bottom of the page we include a quick
>>>>> reference
>>>>> >>>>> sheet of
>>>>> >>>>> the models and macros to help users while they are authoring
>>>>> >>>>> templates.
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> One of the things that I think Roller has been hurting on is
>>>>> >>>>> usability
>>>>> >>>>> and in my mind of the most important elements of
>>>>> usability when it
>>>>> >>>>> comes
>>>>> >>>>> to web tools is contextual documentation. I think doing
>>>>> something
>>>>> >>>>> like
>>>>> >>>>> this could really help make Roller a more user friendly
>>>>> blogging
>>>>> >>>>> system.
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>> (3) Tags don't seem to be displayed anywhere in the
>>>>> "basic" theme at
>>>>> >>>>>> all. Shouldn't we update this to show tags on entries,
>>>>> including an
>>>>> >>>>>> actual rel tag ?
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> I think there may not have been any real consensus about
>>>>> whether
>>>>> >>>>> or not
>>>>> >>>>> to promote tags in the themes since in many cases users
>>>>> may not be
>>>>> >>>>> using
>>>>> >>>>> tags.
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>> (4) I couldn't get anything to show up in the "Hot Tags"
>>>>> area of the
>>>>> >>>>>> front page. Haven't investigated what is happening yet;
>>>>> this may be
>>>>> >>>>>> my own problem.
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> Dunno about that one.
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> -- Allen
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>> --a.
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave"
>>>>> <sn...@gmail.com>
>>>>> >>>>>> To: <ro...@incubator.apache.org>
>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 5:57 PM
>>>>> >>>>>> Subject: Apache Roller 3.1RC1 (incubating) ready for
>>>>> testing
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>> Thank you and yes, I meant 3.1.
>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>> With releasing 3.1, re-releasing 2.3.1 and working on
>>>>> 3.2 I've
>>>>> >>>>>>> got a
>>>>> >>>>>>> couple
>>>>> >>>>>>> too many versions floating around in my head.
>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>> - Dave
>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>> On 11/20/06, Jeffrey Blattman
>>>>> <Je...@sun.com> wrote:
>>>>> >>>>>>>> did you mean 3.1 RC1, or are we skipping 3.1?
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dave wrote:
>>>>> >>>>>>>> > I've merged all applicable bug fixes from trunk to the
>>>>> >>>>>>>> roller_3.1
>>>>> >>>>>>>> > branch and prepared a first release candidate for
>>>>> the 3.1
>>>>> >>>>>>>> release.
>>>>> >>>>>>>> You
>>>>> >>>>>>>> > can find the release files and latest 3.1 docs here:
>>>>> >>>>>>>> >
>>>>> >>>>>>>> > http://people.apache.org/~snoopdave/apache-
>>>>> roller-3.1/
>>>>> >>>>>>>> >
>>>>> >>>>>>>> > Here's the What's New in Roller 3.1 page:
>>>>> >>>>>>>> >
>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://rollerweblogger.org/wiki/Wiki.jsp?
>>>>> page=Roller_3.1_WhatsNew
>>>>> >>>>>>>> >
>>>>> >>>>>>>> > Release candidates are for testing purposes only.
>>>>> >>>>>>>> >
>>>>> >>>>>>>> > Please help out. The sooner you download, test and
>>>>> report
>>>>> >>>>>>>> bugs the
>>>>> >>>>>>>> > sooner we'll be able to fix them and get the release
>>>>> out. So
>>>>> >>>>>>>> please
>>>>> >>>>>>>> > help out the project and take RC1 for a spin.
>>>>> >>>>>>>> >
>>>>> >>>>>>>> > - Dave
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Dave
>>>>>
>>>>> *David Levy *
>>>
>>> --
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> *David Levy *
>>
>> Craig Russell
>> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/
>> jdo
>> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>>
>
> --
>
> Dave
>
> *David Levy *
> *Principal Engineer*
> *Sun Microsystems Ltd.*
> 55, King William St.,
> London EC4R 9ND
> United Kingdom
>
>
> Phone +44 (0) 20 7469 9908/x18308
> Mobile +44 (0) 7710-360922
>
> Blog http://blogs.sun.com/DaveLevy
> Email David.Levy@Sun.COM
>
> Sun Proprietary & Confidential . This e-mail message is for the
> sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential
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>
>
> --
>
> Dave
>
> *David Levy *
> *Principal Engineer*
> *Sun Microsystems Ltd.*
> 55, King William St.,
> London EC4R 9ND
> United Kingdom
>
>
> Phone +44 (0) 20 7469 9908/x18308
> Mobile +44 (0) 7710-360922
>
> Blog http://blogs.sun.com/DaveLevy
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>
Craig Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!