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Posted to dev@avalon.apache.org by Peter Donald <pe...@apache.org> on 2002/08/05 13:00:38 UTC

New Committer

Hi,

I would like to nominate "Yauheny Mikulski" <fo...@infonet.by> as a 
committer for avalon. He is responsible for the C# version of framework and 
hopefully we can learn a bunch of things from it. We can also start offering 
his work from apache website and cvs which is also good ;)

On Fri, 2 Aug 2002 05:55, Yauheny Mikulski wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I'd like to introduce a .NET implementation of the Avalon framework ideas.
> I'm sure that such implementations of Avalon can give people the
> opportunities to use its ideas in other languages (in this case .NET).
> It is available at http://www.ymikulski.narod.ru/Avalon-src.zip
>
> So I'd like to join you  and go on working as .NET(C#) Avalon developer
> and I would also like to see my work on Jakarta Avalon site.
>
> Best Regards,
>     Yauheny Mikulski.
>
> P.S.
> You should take into that C# language has its own particular features and
> requirements. All source code has been written under these ones.
> But, of course, I kept all Avalon's features and foundations.
> It was my primary goal.

-- 
Cheers,

Peter Donald
------------------------------------------------------
 Mark Twain: "In the real world, the right thing never
happens in the right place at the right time. It is 
the task of journalists and historians to rectify 
this error."
------------------------------------------------------ 


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Re: New Committer

Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.

Peter Donald wrote:

>Hi,
>
>I would like to nominate "Yauheny Mikulski" <fo...@infonet.by> as a 
>committer for avalon. He is responsible for the C# version of framework and 
>hopefully we can learn a bunch of things from it. We can also start offering 
>his work from apache website and cvs which is also good ;)
>
+1

-- 

Stephen J. McConnell

OSM SARL
digital products for a global economy
mailto:mcconnell@osm.net
http://www.osm.net




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Re: [VOTE] Re: New Committer

Posted by Leo Simons <le...@apache.org>.
On Mon, 2002-08-05 at 15:20, Peter Donald wrote:
> On Mon, 5 Aug 2002 21:04, Leo Simons wrote:
> > I hate to do this, but -1.

<snip author="me"/>

> What you are doing is effectively making it impossible to bootstrap this or 
> any other C# module. 

<snip author="pete"/>

<Leo ponders that statement for a while/>

very true, it is. To the dark side, lead us I would... ;)

I hereby change my -1 into a +1.

motivation
----------

imo, ideally, there should be a separate project for submissions dealing
with C#, like those made by Yauheny (we need a nickname or something for
you btw, I'm sure I've mistyped it once already!) at apache.

As the board has decided that these submissions should be given a place
within jakarta, we should do our best to do so. For a port of avalon, it
is only natural that this port exists within the avalon project itself.
Due to the nature of dotnet/c#, it is very likely some of these ports
will fail, die, become dead horses, etc. However, this is to be expected
and not feared. (also, I don't think it is going to happen to avalon as
it has just as much use in c# as in java)

If we wish to be supportive of emerging tech like c#, we just have to
take a 'progressive' look at the project guidelines, and welcome in
people that develop for our project with the new tech
exclusively/mostly/whatever.

Yauheny is one of several people working hard to bring jakarta material
to dotnet, and seemingly doing a good job at that (his initial
contribution looks nice, even though I don't know c# yet...). For this,
he should not only be thanked, but we should also try and offer him as
much assistance/facilities as possible, also in the form of CVS repo,
voting rights, etc etc, regardless of him not fitting the 'profile' for
the 'regular' committer.

In other words: I get why there should be an exception now =)

While we _should_ probably make some changes (like a
language-independent part of the site, like specs 'n stuff), I think we
can take them as they come...we've managed pretty well before.

Welcome aboard, Yauheny! You are now allmost (some votes pending I
guess) the unofficial C# language expert here at avalon =)

As to placement of the module...I'd really like a
jakarta-avalon-scratchpad CVS or something like that... $(cvs up)
already takes longer than my morning coffee...

regards,

Leo Simons



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Re: [VOTE] Re: New Committer

Posted by Peter Donald <pe...@apache.org>.
On Mon, 5 Aug 2002 21:04, Leo Simons wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I hate to do this, but -1.
>
> Other than that he has recently provided a really cool source zip, I
> know nothing of Yauheny. I haven't seen him active in the community
> before, have not seen a patch from him, etc etc.
>
> I really welcome Yauheny's contributions and I hope he will become an
> active member of our community. However, as I feel unsure he will stay
> an active member, I think he should not yet be granted committer status.

What you are doing is effectively making it impossible to bootstrap this or 
any other C# module. 

Yauheny has done something in C# that none of the other committers are likely 
to be capable of maintaining. It would be great to see it go on to be further 
developed along with other C# stuff and a community to build around it. 

However it can't be done without Yauheny leading it. Without Yauheny as a 
committer there will never be anyone who is dilligent and committed enough to 
maintaining it and it will never get off the ground.

Letting Yauheny maintain it himself may or may not work. I would like to see 
it work, which is why I originally sort him out and encouraged him to propose 
it to the group. If it fails then we lose nothing, if it succeeds then it is 
great.

It would be a pity not to see this happen because you were unwilling to take a 
chance.

-- 
Cheers,

Peter Donald
------------------------------------------------------
 Mark Twain: "In the real world, the right thing never
happens in the right place at the right time. It is 
the task of journalists and historians to rectify 
this error."
------------------------------------------------------ 


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[OT] Re: [VOTE] Re: New Committer

Posted by Leo Simons <le...@apache.org>.
<snip>
> > > Committer status can be revoked.
> > 
> > In theory. I haven't seen it happen. We're sloppy in that regard.
> 
> +1 on Leo chasing this up =)

+1 on someone getting Leo a job where he can work on avalon fulltime =)

<snip>
> Practically, no-one does take responsibility for every corner of Avalon.
> Everyone has their own little chunk. Given everyone's limited time, I
> don't see how it could be otherwise.

when I do find time to start chasing stuff, something on my todo list is
a PROJECT file in each subsubsubsubsubsubproject (or maybe a little less
granular) detailing maintainers/authors of various stuff. Users get
confused very often (people still contact me about POI for some
reason.....)

cheers,

Leo Simons



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Re: [VOTE] Re: New Committer

Posted by Jeff Turner <je...@apache.org>.
On Mon, Aug 05, 2002 at 01:38:13PM +0200, Leo Simons wrote:
> On Mon, 2002-08-05 at 13:29, Leo Sutic wrote:
> > I ask you to reconsider.
> > 
> > Committer status can be revoked.
> 
> In theory. I haven't seen it happen. We're sloppy in that regard.

+1 on Leo chasing this up =)

> > I do not think a basic assumption of him being willing to participate
> > and an assumption of him being careful enough is too much of a leap
> > of faith.
> 
> It is not about whether he is willing or capable. If we check in that
> code he submitted now, and he has for some reason no time/possibility to
> maintain it later, we have a dead horse sitting in CVS we have to
> support.

If it ends up a dead horse, why not just document it as such, move on,
and remove it some time in the future? I think we can do that, *if* the
code's true status has always been made clear to users, so there are no
false expectations.

> Making him a committer basically means no current committer has to take
> on the burden of maintaining that submission. It feels like that is one
> of the reasons behind this proposal, which I don't really like.

Practically, no-one does take responsibility for every corner of Avalon.
Everyone has their own little chunk. Given everyone's limited time, I
don't see how it could be otherwise. So I see no problem with giving
Yauheny his corner to play in. As long as the code status is always made
clear.


--Jeff

...
> cheers,
> 
> Leo Simons

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RE: [VOTE] Re: New Committer

Posted by Leo Simons <le...@apache.org>.
> > Making him a committer basically means no current committer 
> > has to take on the burden of maintaining that submission. It 
> > feels like that is one of the reasons behind this proposal, 
> > which I don't really like.
> 
> But we have already voted to include the code:
> 
>   http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=avalon-dev&m=102827170631499&w=2
>   http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=avalon-dev&m=102825101220792&w=2
>   http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=avalon-dev&m=102823253102512&w=2
>   http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=avalon-dev&m=102823320703517&w=2

errr....you can interpret all that in many different ways. If current
committers were to say "let us put these sources in CVS and help
maintain them" rather than "I'd like this in avalon" that'd make things
a lot more clear.

> So him being a committer or not really does not factor in the 
> dead-horse equation, except that as a non-committer it will be
> that much harder for him to maintain the code.

...except that Pete implicitly mentioned it (the dead-horse equation) as
a reason (at least I read it that way), and you then explicitly stated
it.

> I understand your reasons for -1 - these arguments are my final
> attempt at convincing you otherwise - but the jakarta guidelines
> are not always practical, and sometimes appear to be written for 
> some organization that is not quite Jakarta-as-I-know-it, and thus
> there is justification for going outside of them.

I care primarily for the spirit behind the guidelines; not how they are
written down.

This thread has much ado with the recent discussion about the 'barrier
of entry' (think on jakarta-general) for the various projects. I think
we are already 'below average' (we have a low barrier I think, which is
good), and I feel that we really should try and keep things a little
similar to other subprojects.

Other concerns play as well; like PH comments on documentation wrt Huw's
committership that apply here as well.

> > There is too much code in the avalon cvses already.
> 
> That is very true, but I think we went over the dynamics that 
> caused this a while back. (Jakarta politics.)

that was about duplication in excalibur 'n stuff. We also have openorb
and avalondb, as examples =)

LSD



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Re: [VOTE] Re: New Committer

Posted by Peter Donald <pe...@apache.org>.
On Mon, 5 Aug 2002 22:41, Henri Yandell wrote:
> Just a non-Avalon committer's view.
>
> One advantage to waiting until after the cvs commit of code before voting
> in Yauheny would be to able to take the planning of the logistics of the
> C# code a little slower.
>
> Has anyone given any thought as to how to integrate a C# build system into
> the current Java one? Is it just src/cSharp, where would unit tests go
> etc.

Probably the best thing to do at first would be to just have another excalibur 
project and get it settled in first. After we see it working we can then look 
at how to best integrate it with main codebase. It may be that CSharp is 
different enough to warrant a completely different setup or it could live 
side-by-side the java version. I guess I don't really know and I am not sure 
anyone will until it is tried out ;)

-- 
Cheers,

Peter Donald
--------------------------------
 These aren't the droids you're 
 looking for. Move along. 
-------------------------------- 


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RE: [VOTE] Re: New Committer

Posted by Leo Sutic <le...@inspireinfrastructure.com>.
As I see it, that is Yauheny's problem. He can come up with
a way to do it and then we vote on it. As a committer he will
stand a better chance at solving it.

If he can't come up with a way, then the code does not go in.

I want to put the most of the work where it belongs and where
it stands its best chance of being solved - with Yauheny.

/LS

> From: Henri Yandell [mailto:bayard@generationjava.com] 


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RE: [VOTE] Re: New Committer

Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
Just a non-Avalon committer's view.

One advantage to waiting until after the cvs commit of code before voting
in Yauheny would be to able to take the planning of the logistics of the
C# code a little slower.

Has anyone given any thought as to how to integrate a C# build system into
the current Java one? Is it just src/cSharp, where would unit tests go
etc.

I don't know if you want to be trying to tackle these issues before
dumping a large code base in. Apologies Yauheny if you've already got all
this done.

Hen



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RE: [VOTE] Re: New Committer

Posted by Leo Sutic <le...@inspireinfrastructure.com>.

> From: Leo Simons [mailto:leosimons@apache.org] 
>
> It is not about whether he is willing or capable. If we check 
> in that code he submitted now, and he has for some reason no 
> time/possibility to maintain it later, we have a dead horse 
> sitting in CVS we have to support.
> 
> Making him a committer basically means no current committer 
> has to take on the burden of maintaining that submission. It 
> feels like that is one of the reasons behind this proposal, 
> which I don't really like.

But we have already voted to include the code:

  http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=avalon-dev&m=102827170631499&w=2
  http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=avalon-dev&m=102825101220792&w=2
  http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=avalon-dev&m=102823253102512&w=2
  http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=avalon-dev&m=102823320703517&w=2

So him being a committer or not really does not factor in the 
dead-horse equation, except that as a non-committer it will be
that much harder for him to maintain the code.

I understand your reasons for -1 - these arguments are my final
attempt at convincing you otherwise - but the jakarta guidelines
are not always practical, and sometimes appear to be written for 
some organization that is not quite Jakarta-as-I-know-it, and thus
there is justification for going outside of them.

> There is too much code in the avalon cvses already.

That is very true, but I think we went over the dynamics that 
caused this a while back. (Jakarta politics.)

/LS


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RE: [VOTE] Re: New Committer

Posted by Leo Simons <le...@apache.org>.
On Mon, 2002-08-05 at 13:29, Leo Sutic wrote:
> I ask you to reconsider.
> 
> Committer status can be revoked.

In theory. I haven't seen it happen. We're sloppy in that regard.

> I do not think a basic assumption of him being willing to participate
> and an assumption of him being careful enough is too much of a leap
> of faith.

It is not about whether he is willing or capable. If we check in that
code he submitted now, and he has for some reason no time/possibility to
maintain it later, we have a dead horse sitting in CVS we have to
support.

Making him a committer basically means no current committer has to take
on the burden of maintaining that submission. It feels like that is one
of the reasons behind this proposal, which I don't really like.

> This is like when we sort-of kind-of re-voted Stefano back in.

I disagree. Stefano has been a part of the apache family for ages. Way
longer than me, I believe.

> After all, he has given us his source code already - which is a fairly
> big gesture of goodwill.

Once more, I do not question his goodwill at all. But it is not always
possible to help out as much as you want, or as much as is needed.

I originally planned on finishing JMX support in phoenix a year ago.

> A compromise: Can we give him committer status now, just so none of us
> have to check in that big bunch of stuff he sent, and be very clear that
> the committer status can and will be revoked if he goes silent or
> doesn't
> measure up to the requirements put on a committer?

hmm. I think not. The reason you give is exactly what my -1 should
prevent, in fact. If we need a CVS to chuck some code in so we can all
have a good look, well, there's avalonia for that.

There is too much code in the avalon cvses already.

I'm by no means drawing a line in the sand, I'm just not convinced the
requirments for providing committer status (as per the jakarta
guidelines) have been properly satisfied.

Once again, Yauheny, this has nothing to do with you personally. Please
take no offense ;)

cheers,

Leo Simons



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RE: [VOTE] Re: New Committer

Posted by Leo Sutic <le...@inspireinfrastructure.com>.
I ask you to reconsider.

Committer status can be revoked.

I do not think a basic assumption of him being willing to participate
and an assumption of him being careful enough is too much of a leap
of faith.

This is like when we sort-of kind-of re-voted Stefano back in.

After all, he has given us his source code already - which is a fairly
big gesture of goodwill.

A compromise: Can we give him committer status now, just so none of us
have to check in that big bunch of stuff he sent, and be very clear that
the committer status can and will be revoked if he goes silent or
doesn't
measure up to the requirements put on a committer?

/LS

> From: Leo Simons [mailto:leosimons@apache.org] 
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I hate to do this, but -1.
> 
> Other than that he has recently provided a really cool source 
> zip, I know nothing of Yauheny. I haven't seen him active in 
> the community before, have not seen a patch from him, etc etc.
> 
> I really welcome Yauheny's contributions and I hope he will 
> become an active member of our community. However, as I feel 
> unsure he will stay an active member, I think he should not 
> yet be granted committer status.
> 
> Yauheny, I hope you understand this -1 has nothing to do with 
> you personally, your submission, or anything like that. It is 
> just I feel I'd like to have you around for a while as a 
> 'non-committer' before voting you in.
> 
> best regards,
> 
> Leo Simons
> 
> On Mon, 2002-08-05 at 13:00, Peter Donald wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > I would like to nominate "Yauheny Mikulski" 
> <fo...@infonet.by> as a
> > committer for avalon. He is responsible for the C# version 
> of framework and 
> > hopefully we can learn a bunch of things from it. We can 
> also start offering 
> > his work from apache website and cvs which is also good ;)
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 


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[VOTE] Re: New Committer

Posted by Leo Simons <le...@apache.org>.
Hi all,

I hate to do this, but -1.

Other than that he has recently provided a really cool source zip, I
know nothing of Yauheny. I haven't seen him active in the community
before, have not seen a patch from him, etc etc.

I really welcome Yauheny's contributions and I hope he will become an
active member of our community. However, as I feel unsure he will stay
an active member, I think he should not yet be granted committer status.

Yauheny, I hope you understand this -1 has nothing to do with you
personally, your submission, or anything like that. It is just I feel
I'd like to have you around for a while as a 'non-committer' before
voting you in.

best regards,

Leo Simons

On Mon, 2002-08-05 at 13:00, Peter Donald wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I would like to nominate "Yauheny Mikulski" <fo...@infonet.by> as a 
> committer for avalon. He is responsible for the C# version of framework and 
> hopefully we can learn a bunch of things from it. We can also start offering 
> his work from apache website and cvs which is also good ;)



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Re: New Committer

Posted by Peter Royal <pr...@apache.org>.
On Monday 05 August 2002 07:00 am, Peter Donald wrote:
> I would like to nominate "Yauheny Mikulski" <fo...@infonet.by> as a
> committer for avalon. He is responsible for the C# version of framework and
> hopefully we can learn a bunch of things from it. We can also start
> offering his work from apache website and cvs which is also good ;)

+1
-pete

-- 
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Re: New Committer

Posted by Jeff Turner <je...@apache.org>.
On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 11:44:58AM +1000, Jeff Turner wrote:
> > > Leo Simons wrote:
> > > Yauheny (we need a nickname or something for
> > > you btw, I'm sure I've mistyped it once already!)
> > 
> > You can simply call me Jeff.
> 
> lol.. it's a good name, but.. any particular reason? If it's completely
> arbitrary, I humbly suggest your Avalon persona be called 'Bob', in
> honour of an atrocious 1995-vintage Microsoft user interface ;)

Upon rereading, that sounds insulting - my apologies, that wasn't the
intended effect.

--Jeff

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Re: New Committer

Posted by Jeff Turner <je...@apache.org>.
On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 01:42:05AM +0300, Yauheny Mikulski wrote:
> Dear Folks,
> 
> It seems to me the voting is over and I thank you for nominating me a
> committer.

Welcome!

> P.S.
> 
> > Leo Simons wrote:
> > Yauheny (we need a nickname or something for
> > you btw, I'm sure I've mistyped it once already!)
> 
> You can simply call me Jeff.

lol.. it's a good name, but.. any particular reason? If it's completely
arbitrary, I humbly suggest your Avalon persona be called 'Bob', in
honour of an atrocious 1995-vintage Microsoft user interface ;)

--Jeff


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Re: New Committer

Posted by Yauheny Mikulski <fo...@infonet.by>.
Dear Folks,

It seems to me the voting is over and I thank you for nominating me a
committer.
So I can keep on working as Avalon C# developer and I'm so delighted to do
that.

Best Regards,
    Yauheny Mikulski (Jeff).

P.S.

> Leo Simons wrote:
> Yauheny (we need a nickname or something for
> you btw, I'm sure I've mistyped it once already!)

You can simply call me Jeff.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Donald" <pe...@apache.org>
To: "Avalon Developers List" <av...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 2:00 PM
Subject: New Committer


Hi,

I would like to nominate "Yauheny Mikulski" <fo...@infonet.by> as a
committer for avalon. He is responsible for the C# version of framework and
hopefully we can learn a bunch of things from it. We can also start offering
his work from apache website and cvs which is also good ;)

On Fri, 2 Aug 2002 05:55, Yauheny Mikulski wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I'd like to introduce a .NET implementation of the Avalon framework ideas.
> I'm sure that such implementations of Avalon can give people the
> opportunities to use its ideas in other languages (in this case .NET).
> It is available at http://www.ymikulski.narod.ru/Avalon-src.zip
>
> So I'd like to join you  and go on working as .NET(C#) Avalon developer
> and I would also like to see my work on Jakarta Avalon site.
>
> Best Regards,
>     Yauheny Mikulski.
>
> P.S.
> You should take into that C# language has its own particular features and
> requirements. All source code has been written under these ones.
> But, of course, I kept all Avalon's features and foundations.
> It was my primary goal.

--
Cheers,

Peter Donald
------------------------------------------------------
 Mark Twain: "In the real world, the right thing never
happens in the right place at the right time. It is
the task of journalists and historians to rectify
this error."
------------------------------------------------------


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RE: New Committer

Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>.
+1

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Donald [mailto:peter@apache.org] 
> Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 7:01 AM
> To: Avalon Developers List
> Subject: New Committer
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I would like to nominate "Yauheny Mikulski" <fo...@infonet.by> as a 
> committer for avalon. He is responsible for the C# version of 
> framework and 
> hopefully we can learn a bunch of things from it. We can also 
> start offering 
> his work from apache website and cvs which is also good ;)
> 
> On Fri, 2 Aug 2002 05:55, Yauheny Mikulski wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > I'd like to introduce a .NET implementation of the Avalon framework 
> > ideas. I'm sure that such implementations of Avalon can give people 
> > the opportunities to use its ideas in other languages (in this case 
> > .NET). It is available at 
> http://www.ymikulski.narod.ru/Avalon-src.zip
> >
> > So I'd like 
> to join you  and go on working as .NET(C#) Avalon 
> > developer and I would also like to see my work on Jakarta 
> Avalon site.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >     Yauheny Mikulski.
> >
> > P.S.
> > You should take into that C# language has its own 
> particular features 
> > and requirements. All source code has been written under 
> these ones. 
> > But, of course, I kept all Avalon's features and 
> foundations. It was 
> > my primary goal.
> 
> -- 
> Cheers,
> 
> Peter Donald
> ------------------------------------------------------
>  Mark Twain: "In the real world, the right thing never
> happens in the right place at the right time. It is 
> the task of journalists and historians to rectify 
> this error."
> ------------------------------------------------------ 
> 
> 
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RE: New Committer

Posted by Leo Sutic <le...@inspireinfrastructure.com>.
+1

> From: Peter Donald [mailto:peter@apache.org] 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I would like to nominate "Yauheny Mikulski" <fo...@infonet.by> as a 
> committer for avalon. He is responsible for the C# version of 
> framework and 
> hopefully we can learn a bunch of things from it. We can also 
> start offering 
> his work from apache website and cvs which is also good ;)


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Re: New Committer

Posted by Leif Mortenson <le...@tanukisoftware.com>.
Huw Roberts wrote:

> +1
>
> its going to be rough keeping two implementations in synch... 

I agree, how is this going to be handled?



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Re: New Committer

Posted by Huw Roberts <hu...@apache.org>.
At 09:00 PM 8/5/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I would like to nominate "Yauheny Mikulski" <fo...@infonet.by> as a
>committer for avalon. He is responsible for the C# version of framework and
>hopefully we can learn a bunch of things from it. We can also start offering
>his work from apache website and cvs which is also good ;)

+1

its going to be rough keeping two implementations in synch...


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