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Posted to user@struts.apache.org by Rafael Taboada <ka...@gmail.com> on 2005/10/03 19:22:19 UTC

database design

Hi folks. When u design a database... What soft do u use?? What's the best??
 I use Embarcadero E/R... Is there any program better than embarcadero?

--
Rafael Taboada
Software Engineer

Cell : +511-97753290

"No creo en el destino pues no me gusta tener la idea de controlar mi vida"

Re: database design

Posted by Adam Hardy <ah...@cyberspaceroad.com>.
Rafael Taboada on 03/10/05 18:22, wrote:
> Hi folks. When u design a database... What soft do u use?? What's the best??
>  I use Embarcadero E/R... Is there any program better than embarcadero?
> 

microsoft visio. would use a linux tool but haven't found one. i prefer 
the way visio allows you to route the connections between the tables 
which is important for clarity with lots of tables. oracle's bundled ERD 
software is pants.

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Re: database design

Posted by Martin Gainty <mg...@hotmail.com>.
Rafael-

I assume you have looked at E/R Studio?
http://www.embarcadero.com/downloads/downloaderstudio.jsp?Tracking_ID=409&Tracking_Code=Google2

Saludos,

Martin-

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rafael Taboada" <ka...@gmail.com>
To: "Struts List" <us...@struts.apache.org>
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 1:22 PM
Subject: database design


Hi folks. When u design a database... What soft do u use?? What's the best??
 I use Embarcadero E/R... Is there any program better than embarcadero?

--
Rafael Taboada
Software Engineer

Cell : +511-97753290

"No creo en el destino pues no me gusta tener la idea de controlar mi vida"

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Re: database design

Posted by Rafael <ra...@gmail.com>.
Or if you have Rational license, you can use Rational Software Modeler.

My 2 cents.. :-)

-Rafael T Icibaci

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Benussi" <ma...@hotmail.com>
To: "'Struts Users Mailing List'" <us...@struts.apache.org>; "'Rafael 
Taboada'" <ka...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 2:08 PM
Subject: RE: database design


> MyEclipse 4.1 has really cool database interaction  built in if you 
> already
> have a license for MyEclipse.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rafael Taboada [mailto:kaliman.forever@gmail.com]
> Sent: 04 October 2005 07:56
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: Re: database design
>
> r u being sarcastic??? I hope u dont...
> Anyway... I USED my "whiteboard"... And I have to draw it on my PC in 
> order
> to show it... In order to generate my SQL statements... In order to 
> connect
> my DB and manage it...
> Just looking for somw tools... Just researching... Just learning...
> Thanks for ur help.
>
>
> --
> Rafael Taboada
> Software Engineer
>
> Cell : +511-97753290
>
> "No creo en el destino pues no me gusta tener la idea de controlar mi 
> vida"
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> 


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RE: database design

Posted by Mark Benussi <ma...@hotmail.com>.
MyEclipse 4.1 has really cool database interaction  built in if you already
have a license for MyEclipse.

-----Original Message-----
From: Rafael Taboada [mailto:kaliman.forever@gmail.com] 
Sent: 04 October 2005 07:56
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: database design

r u being sarcastic??? I hope u dont...
 Anyway... I USED my "whiteboard"... And I have to draw it on my PC in order
to show it... In order to generate my SQL statements... In order to connect
my DB and manage it...
 Just looking for somw tools... Just researching... Just learning...
 Thanks for ur help.


--
Rafael Taboada
Software Engineer

Cell : +511-97753290

"No creo en el destino pues no me gusta tener la idea de controlar mi vida"

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Re: database design

Posted by Rafael Taboada <ka...@gmail.com>.
r u being sarcastic??? I hope u dont...
 Anyway... I USED my "whiteboard"... And I have to draw it on my PC in order
to show it... In order to generate my SQL statements... In order to connect
my DB and manage it...
 Just looking for somw tools... Just researching... Just learning...
 Thanks for ur help.


--
Rafael Taboada
Software Engineer

Cell : +511-97753290

"No creo en el destino pues no me gusta tener la idea de controlar mi vida"

Re: database design

Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
On Tue, October 4, 2005 12:51 pm, Michael Jouravlev said:
> Like to sniff the markers? ;-))

And who DOESN'T?!? ;-))

> Now this is geeky! ;-)

In a big way! :)

> I prefer to draw by hand too, but I usually steal paper sheets from
> the printer. For project brainstorming we have whiteboards.

No, my son is the printer-paper fiend... I can't tell you how many times I
go to print something and the thing is empty because he went through a
whole ream of paper drawing SpongeBob characters.  The walls probably wind
up being cheaper in the long-run!

> Michael.

Frank

(Friday has obviously come early this week)


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Re: database design

Posted by Michael Jouravlev <jm...@gmail.com>.
On 10/3/05, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
> What I found is a panel that is made out of whiteboard material.  So,
> picture an entire 15'x16' room (is ' or " feet?  I never remember!)
> where every single wall is whiteboard, floor to ceiling.
>
> *THIS* has become *THE* way I do most of my design work.  It's great...

Like to sniff the markers? ;-))

> any time I have an idea I simply find a blank area of wall and have at
> it!  I put in a chair rail around the entire room

Now this is geeky! ;-)

I prefer to draw by hand too, but I usually steal paper sheets from
the printer. For project brainstorming we have whiteboards.

Michael.

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Re: database design

Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
Oh great... I'll let *you* explain to my wife why I have to redo the
office AGAIN :)  *NEVER* give a geek a new idea!! LOL

-- 
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com
AIM: fzammetti
Yahoo: fzammetti
MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com

On Tue, October 4, 2005 2:55 pm, Wendy Smoak said:
> From: "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>
>
>> I don't have this at work (yet... talking to the building manager!) but
>> I
>> still find a giant whiteboard to be the best for database design, or any
>> other kind of design work.
>
> When we designed the office space we're in now, we built that room--
> whiteboards on all four walls, a projector and screen (and a DVD player).
>
> For added fun, the whiteboards detach from the rails, so you can slide
> them
> around or move them to a different wall if you want.  (Or take one back to
> your desk if you're particularly attached to it.)  You can switch out some
> of the whiteboards for large paper tablets.  And I think one of them is a
> cork board if you turn it over.
>
> This is not, however, what the OP was looking for. ;)
>
> --
> Wendy Smoak
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>


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Re: database design

Posted by Wendy Smoak <ja...@wendysmoak.com>.
From: "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>

> I don't have this at work (yet... talking to the building manager!) but I
> still find a giant whiteboard to be the best for database design, or any
> other kind of design work.

When we designed the office space we're in now, we built that room--
whiteboards on all four walls, a projector and screen (and a DVD player).

For added fun, the whiteboards detach from the rails, so you can slide them
around or move them to a different wall if you want.  (Or take one back to
your desk if you're particularly attached to it.)  You can switch out some
of the whiteboards for large paper tablets.  And I think one of them is a
cork board if you turn it over.

This is not, however, what the OP was looking for. ;)

-- 
Wendy Smoak


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Re: database design

Posted by Martin Gainty <mg...@hotmail.com>.
I agree with Neil/Frank
When I was at UHG
We did a Agile post-mortem with David Spann and he advocated using a massive 
whiteboard in a room (which everyone has access to) detailing
core functionalities
ancillary functionalities
import/export functionalities

so as an example in our case we had 'core functionalities' defined as
                                     Hospital Class (parent table/class)
                                         |
                          -----------------------
                         |               |                  |
         EmergencyRoom  Surgery    Outpatient (child tables/classes of 
Hospital)

whereas every node (table) has HospitalID embedded into the Primary Key for 
to Level2 (ER, Surgery,Outpatient) classes
R.N could be resourced to ER or Surgery or Outpatient depending on Load
ER would have patients assigned HCPCS/DRG/CPT codes with constraint Not null 
(so that a patient must be coded to be entered into system)
Analyst could make any changes anywhere..but if Analyst changes signed 
/dated and reason why
DBA would make changes  to DB structure to Analyst's changes
Project Lead would make sure changes were reflected into underlying class 
with accessors/mutators in place

Basic stuff ...easy to get the picture if its on a giant whiteboard..
Martin-
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Neil Aggarwal" <ne...@JAMMConsulting.com>
To: "'Struts Users Mailing List'" <us...@struts.apache.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 12:57 AM
Subject: RE: database design


> Frank:
>
> I agree with you in that a big whiteboard is the best place for
> data design.
>
> I had an old boss that used to tell me that if you can't do it
> on paper, you can't possibly hope to tell the computer how to
> do it.
>
> I think people nowadays are too impatient to design things well.
> They just start hacking stuff together and hope it will all work
> at the end.
>
> I think that is why there are so many crappy systems out there.
>
> Regarding you room - I think I would need a padded room next
> to it!
>
> Neil
>
>
> --
> Neil Aggarwal, JAMM Consulting, (214) 986-3533, www.JAMMConsulting.com
> FREE! Valuable info on how your business can reduce operating costs by
> 17% or more in 6 months or less! http://newsletter.JAMMConsulting.com
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Frank W. Zammetti [mailto:fzlists@omnytex.com]
>> Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 11:25 PM
>> To: Struts Users Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: database design
>>
>>
>> I think the smartest thing I ever did was this...
>>
>> I have an office at home... just one of the bedrooms that is my
>> sanctuary of geekdom... about 6 months ago we were walking
>> through Home
>> Depot... no, sorry, Lowes... we were looking for some sort of
>> paneling
>> to spruce the place up a bit.
>>
>> What I found is a panel that is made out of whiteboard material.  So,
>> picture an entire 15'x16' room (is ' or " feet?  I never remember!)
>> where every single wall is whiteboard, floor to ceiling.
>>
>> *THIS* has become *THE* way I do most of my design work.
>> It's great...
>> any time I have an idea I simply find a blank area of wall
>> and have at
>> it!  I put in a chair rail around the entire room and I keep various
>> colored markers on it.
>>
>> My only problem is keeping the kids from scribbling all over
>> my work :)
>>
>> I don't have this at work (yet... talking to the building
>> manager!) but
>> I still find a giant whiteboard to be the best for database
>> design, or
>> any other kind of design work.  Once I have a fairly solid idea where
>> everything is going, I usually break out Visio.  As a general-purpose
>> diagramming tool I find it to be second to none.  I can create just
>> about any UML diagram, flowchart or whatever else in it.
>> True, I can't
>> spit code out of it, but I don't generally like letting tools
>> write my
>> code for me anyway.
>>
>> But, forget all that... go buy that paneling and pick a room! :)
>>
>> Frank
>>
>> Graham Reeds wrote:
>> > Rafael Taboada wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hi folks. When u design a database... What soft do u use??
>> What's the
>> >> best??
>> >>  I use Embarcadero E/R... Is there any program better than
>> embarcadero?
>> >>
>> >> -- 
>> >> Rafael Taboada
>> >> Software Engineer
>> >>
>> >> Cell : +511-97753290
>> >>
>> >> "No creo en el destino pues no me gusta tener la idea de
>> controlar mi
>> >> vida"
>> >>
>> >
>> > I use pen, paper, and brain power:-)
>> >
>> > When the first round of requirements discussions are
>> complete I then use
>> > SQLyog (http://www.webyog.com/), MySQL Query Browser and MySQL
>> > Workbench.  DBDesigner 4 was the old MySQL Workbench which
>> is getting
>> > rewritten from the ground up.  Haven't installed DBDesigner
>> 4 before
>> > since Workbench just about works for me (at least to
>> visualise and check
>> > I haven't missed any foreign keys).
>> >
>> > There is a Windoze and Mac OSX version of Workbench but no
>> Linux yet.
>> >
>> > G.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>> > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> -- 
>> Frank W. Zammetti
>> Founder and Chief Software Architect
>> Omnytex Technologies
>> http://www.omnytex.com
>> AIM: fzammetti
>> Yahoo: fzammetti
>> MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
> 

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RE: database design

Posted by Neil Aggarwal <ne...@JAMMConsulting.com>.
Frank:

I agree with you in that a big whiteboard is the best place for
data design.

I had an old boss that used to tell me that if you can't do it
on paper, you can't possibly hope to tell the computer how to
do it.

I think people nowadays are too impatient to design things well.
They just start hacking stuff together and hope it will all work
at the end.

I think that is why there are so many crappy systems out there.

Regarding you room - I think I would need a padded room next
to it!

	Neil


--
Neil Aggarwal, JAMM Consulting, (214) 986-3533, www.JAMMConsulting.com
FREE! Valuable info on how your business can reduce operating costs by
17% or more in 6 months or less! http://newsletter.JAMMConsulting.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frank W. Zammetti [mailto:fzlists@omnytex.com] 
> Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 11:25 PM
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: Re: database design
> 
> 
> I think the smartest thing I ever did was this...
> 
> I have an office at home... just one of the bedrooms that is my 
> sanctuary of geekdom... about 6 months ago we were walking 
> through Home 
> Depot... no, sorry, Lowes... we were looking for some sort of 
> paneling 
> to spruce the place up a bit.
> 
> What I found is a panel that is made out of whiteboard material.  So, 
> picture an entire 15'x16' room (is ' or " feet?  I never remember!) 
> where every single wall is whiteboard, floor to ceiling.
> 
> *THIS* has become *THE* way I do most of my design work.  
> It's great... 
> any time I have an idea I simply find a blank area of wall 
> and have at 
> it!  I put in a chair rail around the entire room and I keep various 
> colored markers on it.
> 
> My only problem is keeping the kids from scribbling all over 
> my work :)
> 
> I don't have this at work (yet... talking to the building 
> manager!) but 
> I still find a giant whiteboard to be the best for database 
> design, or 
> any other kind of design work.  Once I have a fairly solid idea where 
> everything is going, I usually break out Visio.  As a general-purpose 
> diagramming tool I find it to be second to none.  I can create just 
> about any UML diagram, flowchart or whatever else in it.  
> True, I can't 
> spit code out of it, but I don't generally like letting tools 
> write my 
> code for me anyway.
> 
> But, forget all that... go buy that paneling and pick a room! :)
> 
> Frank
> 
> Graham Reeds wrote:
> > Rafael Taboada wrote:
> > 
> >> Hi folks. When u design a database... What soft do u use?? 
> What's the 
> >> best??
> >>  I use Embarcadero E/R... Is there any program better than 
> embarcadero?
> >>
> >> -- 
> >> Rafael Taboada
> >> Software Engineer
> >>
> >> Cell : +511-97753290
> >>
> >> "No creo en el destino pues no me gusta tener la idea de 
> controlar mi 
> >> vida"
> >>
> > 
> > I use pen, paper, and brain power:-)
> > 
> > When the first round of requirements discussions are 
> complete I then use 
> > SQLyog (http://www.webyog.com/), MySQL Query Browser and MySQL 
> > Workbench.  DBDesigner 4 was the old MySQL Workbench which 
> is getting 
> > rewritten from the ground up.  Haven't installed DBDesigner 
> 4 before 
> > since Workbench just about works for me (at least to 
> visualise and check 
> > I haven't missed any foreign keys).
> > 
> > There is a Windoze and Mac OSX version of Workbench but no 
> Linux yet.
> > 
> > G.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> -- 
> Frank W. Zammetti
> Founder and Chief Software Architect
> Omnytex Technologies
> http://www.omnytex.com
> AIM: fzammetti
> Yahoo: fzammetti
> MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> 


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RE: database design

Posted by Mark Benussi <ma...@hotmail.com>.
+1 For a whiteboard, but how inferior do I feel next to Frank. Were not
worthy...

-----Original Message-----
From: Frank W. Zammetti [mailto:fzlists@omnytex.com] 
Sent: 04 October 2005 05:25
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: database design

I think the smartest thing I ever did was this...

I have an office at home... just one of the bedrooms that is my 
sanctuary of geekdom... about 6 months ago we were walking through Home 
Depot... no, sorry, Lowes... we were looking for some sort of paneling 
to spruce the place up a bit.

What I found is a panel that is made out of whiteboard material.  So, 
picture an entire 15'x16' room (is ' or " feet?  I never remember!) 
where every single wall is whiteboard, floor to ceiling.

*THIS* has become *THE* way I do most of my design work.  It's great... 
any time I have an idea I simply find a blank area of wall and have at 
it!  I put in a chair rail around the entire room and I keep various 
colored markers on it.

My only problem is keeping the kids from scribbling all over my work :)

I don't have this at work (yet... talking to the building manager!) but 
I still find a giant whiteboard to be the best for database design, or 
any other kind of design work.  Once I have a fairly solid idea where 
everything is going, I usually break out Visio.  As a general-purpose 
diagramming tool I find it to be second to none.  I can create just 
about any UML diagram, flowchart or whatever else in it.  True, I can't 
spit code out of it, but I don't generally like letting tools write my 
code for me anyway.

But, forget all that... go buy that paneling and pick a room! :)

Frank

Graham Reeds wrote:
> Rafael Taboada wrote:
> 
>> Hi folks. When u design a database... What soft do u use?? What's the 
>> best??
>>  I use Embarcadero E/R... Is there any program better than embarcadero?
>>
>> -- 
>> Rafael Taboada
>> Software Engineer
>>
>> Cell : +511-97753290
>>
>> "No creo en el destino pues no me gusta tener la idea de controlar mi 
>> vida"
>>
> 
> I use pen, paper, and brain power:-)
> 
> When the first round of requirements discussions are complete I then use 
> SQLyog (http://www.webyog.com/), MySQL Query Browser and MySQL 
> Workbench.  DBDesigner 4 was the old MySQL Workbench which is getting 
> rewritten from the ground up.  Haven't installed DBDesigner 4 before 
> since Workbench just about works for me (at least to visualise and check 
> I haven't missed any foreign keys).
> 
> There is a Windoze and Mac OSX version of Workbench but no Linux yet.
> 
> G.
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> 
> 
> 
> 

-- 
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com
AIM: fzammetti
Yahoo: fzammetti
MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com

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Re: database design

Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
I think the smartest thing I ever did was this...

I have an office at home... just one of the bedrooms that is my 
sanctuary of geekdom... about 6 months ago we were walking through Home 
Depot... no, sorry, Lowes... we were looking for some sort of paneling 
to spruce the place up a bit.

What I found is a panel that is made out of whiteboard material.  So, 
picture an entire 15'x16' room (is ' or " feet?  I never remember!) 
where every single wall is whiteboard, floor to ceiling.

*THIS* has become *THE* way I do most of my design work.  It's great... 
any time I have an idea I simply find a blank area of wall and have at 
it!  I put in a chair rail around the entire room and I keep various 
colored markers on it.

My only problem is keeping the kids from scribbling all over my work :)

I don't have this at work (yet... talking to the building manager!) but 
I still find a giant whiteboard to be the best for database design, or 
any other kind of design work.  Once I have a fairly solid idea where 
everything is going, I usually break out Visio.  As a general-purpose 
diagramming tool I find it to be second to none.  I can create just 
about any UML diagram, flowchart or whatever else in it.  True, I can't 
spit code out of it, but I don't generally like letting tools write my 
code for me anyway.

But, forget all that... go buy that paneling and pick a room! :)

Frank

Graham Reeds wrote:
> Rafael Taboada wrote:
> 
>> Hi folks. When u design a database... What soft do u use?? What's the 
>> best??
>>  I use Embarcadero E/R... Is there any program better than embarcadero?
>>
>> -- 
>> Rafael Taboada
>> Software Engineer
>>
>> Cell : +511-97753290
>>
>> "No creo en el destino pues no me gusta tener la idea de controlar mi 
>> vida"
>>
> 
> I use pen, paper, and brain power:-)
> 
> When the first round of requirements discussions are complete I then use 
> SQLyog (http://www.webyog.com/), MySQL Query Browser and MySQL 
> Workbench.  DBDesigner 4 was the old MySQL Workbench which is getting 
> rewritten from the ground up.  Haven't installed DBDesigner 4 before 
> since Workbench just about works for me (at least to visualise and check 
> I haven't missed any foreign keys).
> 
> There is a Windoze and Mac OSX version of Workbench but no Linux yet.
> 
> G.
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> 
> 
> 
> 

-- 
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com
AIM: fzammetti
Yahoo: fzammetti
MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com

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Re: database design

Posted by Graham Reeds <gr...@ntlworld.com>.
Rafael Taboada wrote:
> Hi folks. When u design a database... What soft do u use?? What's the best??
>  I use Embarcadero E/R... Is there any program better than embarcadero?
> 
> --
> Rafael Taboada
> Software Engineer
> 
> Cell : +511-97753290
> 
> "No creo en el destino pues no me gusta tener la idea de controlar mi vida"
> 

I use pen, paper, and brain power:-)

When the first round of requirements discussions are complete I then use 
SQLyog (http://www.webyog.com/), MySQL Query Browser and MySQL 
Workbench.  DBDesigner 4 was the old MySQL Workbench which is getting 
rewritten from the ground up.  Haven't installed DBDesigner 4 before 
since Workbench just about works for me (at least to visualise and check 
I haven't missed any foreign keys).

There is a Windoze and Mac OSX version of Workbench but no Linux yet.

G.


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Re: AW: database design

Posted by Graham Reeds <gr...@ntlworld.com>.
R. Markham wrote:
> Depends how much you want to pay. As far as I know TOAD or Power Designer
> are the best.

IIRC TOAD is Oracle only.

G.


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AW: database design

Posted by "R. Markham" <ma...@gmx.de>.
Depends how much you want to pay. As far as I know TOAD or Power Designer
are the best.

Richard


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Rafael Taboada [mailto:kaliman.forever@gmail.com] 
Gesendet: Montag, 3. Oktober 2005 19:22
An: Struts List
Betreff: database design

Hi folks. When u design a database... What soft do u use?? What's the best??
 I use Embarcadero E/R... Is there any program better than embarcadero?

--
Rafael Taboada
Software Engineer

Cell : +511-97753290

"No creo en el destino pues no me gusta tener la idea de controlar mi vida"


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