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Posted to dev@struts.apache.org by Thomas L Roche <tl...@us.ibm.com> on 2004/03/20 03:14:15 UTC
OT: Struts JSR?
David Geary spoke on JSF at trijug.org M 15 Mar 04. My notes of
his remarks include
- Is JSF a replacement for Struts? Yes!
- JSF is a standard. Struts will never be a standard.
which I believe to be pretty-nearly-direct quotes. I'm assuming he
really meant
+ JSF 1.0 can do pretty much everything Struts 1.1 can.
+ JSF is a JSR, and Struts will never be a JSR.
but I'm wondering about that last statement. What prevents Struts
from undergoing the JCP? Are there circumstances under which you
might consider this?
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Re: OT: Struts JSR?
Posted by Joe Germuska <Jo...@Germuska.com>.
At 9:14 PM -0500 3/19/04, Thomas L Roche wrote:
>but I'm wondering about that last statement. What prevents Struts
>from undergoing the JCP? Are there circumstances under which you
>might consider this?
There's a pretty good thread going on at general@jakarta about
whether Jakarta should use procedures more like the JCP.
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.jakarta.general/6019
My conclusion is that in general, it would be extra overhead for
little gain. I think it's great when Apache can host reference
implementations of JSRs, but I don't think every Apache project would
benefit from being run like a JSR.
Joe
--
Joe Germuska
Joe@Germuska.com
http://blog.germuska.com
"Imagine if every Thursday your shoes exploded if you tied them
the usual way. This happens to us all the time with computers, and
nobody thinks of complaining."
-- Jef Raskin
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Re: OT: Struts JSR?
Posted by Michael McGrady <mi...@michaelmcgrady.com>.
This is well said, Ted. Hopefully this resonates with the community.
At 02:47 PM 3/20/2004, you wrote:
>On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 18:53:58 -0800, Nadeem Bitar wrote:
> > If for example JSF 2.0 is available, and Spring Framework is well
> > integrated with JSF before Struts 2.0 is available, I strongly
> > believe that struts won't have a place and would lose market shares.
>
>First let's be very clear.
>
>It's *not* about "market share".
>
>Struts does not need market-share to survive. All we need is a community
>of developers who use the product and want to help support it. How many
>downloads we realize isn't important. Whether 90% or whether 10% of
>shipping applications use Struts isn't important. What's important is that
>Struts works well for the people who do want to use it, and that those
>people want to do the work to make it better.
>
>Of course, if we all find that JSF does most of what we all need, and we
>want to use it in our own applications, then Struts will quickly become
>whatever other JSF components we need to ship our own applications. But so
>long as products like JSF leave out components that real-life applications
>need, there will always be a Struts. From the beginning, it's always been
>about providing axles between the wheels that Java already has.
>
>-Ted.
>
>
>
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Re: OT: Struts JSR?
Posted by Vic Cekvenich <ce...@portalVU.com>.
Lets take the leads of Sun, JCP and Jakarta at their word, for a
second.... and then add my .02: If JSF is positioned as better than
Struts (or Spring or WebWork etc.) then I personally would rather use
other platforms entirely.... and I am on my way moving in that direction
for a few months now, porting bP, etc.
.V
Nadeem Bitar wrote:
> Since there is an overlap between struts and jsf, I highly doubt that
> Struts would be accepted as a JSR.
>
> I already expressed similar concerns regarding struts being replaced by
> JSF. I believe the open source community works faster than JCP and if
> struts want to be remain competitive and still be considered the defacto
> java web application framework, the struts developers need to address
> the concerns raised with the current struts architecture and deliver the
> next generation application framework that would silence struts
> critiques and improve productivity of struts developers.
>
> Struts 2.0 roadmap already have very good points but the timeframe of
> the availability would be critical for the future of struts.
>
> If for example JSF 2.0 is available, and Spring Framework is well
> integrated with JSF before Struts 2.0 is available, I strongly believe
> that struts won't have a place and would lose market shares.
>
> Spring 1.1 would offer amazing enhancement (JMX managed beans. JMS
> support, Command framework, Swing support for rich clients..) and an
> excellent architecture to build complex applications, combining that
> with JSF component model would offer a very strong framework that's hard
> to match.
>
>
> On Fri, 2004-03-19 at 21:14 -0500, Thomas L Roche wrote:
>
>
>>David Geary spoke on JSF at trijug.org M 15 Mar 04. My notes of
>>his remarks include
>>
>>- Is JSF a replacement for Struts? Yes!
>>
>>- JSF is a standard. Struts will never be a standard.
>>
>>which I believe to be pretty-nearly-direct quotes. I'm assuming he
>>really meant
>>
>>+ JSF 1.0 can do pretty much everything Struts 1.1 can.
>>
>>+ JSF is a JSR, and Struts will never be a JSR.
>>
>>but I'm wondering about that last statement. What prevents Struts
>>from undergoing the JCP? Are there circumstances under which you
>>might consider this?
>>
>>
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Re: OT: Struts JSR?
Posted by BaTien Duong <ba...@dbgroups.com>.
Martin Cooper wrote:
>On Sat, 20 Mar 2004, Nadeem Bitar wrote:
>
>
>
>>On Sat, 2004-03-20 at 17:47 -0500, Ted Husted wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 18:53:58 -0800, Nadeem Bitar wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>If for example JSF 2.0 is available, and Spring Framework is well
>>>>integrated with JSF before Struts 2.0 is available, I strongly
>>>>believe that struts won't have a place and would lose market shares.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>First let's be very clear.
>>>
>>>It's *not* about "market share".
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>I have to disagree with you on this one. Struts is the defacto standard
>>because of its market share. It is well documented, it has a healthy
>>community, and struts talent is available easily, because of its market
>>share.
>>
>>
>
>I think what Ted is trying to say is that the Struts developers do not
>work on Struts to increase its market share, but because Struts works for
>us, and we care to put in the time and effort to maintain and further
>develop it. The fact that it has become sufficiently popular to turn into
>a de facto standard is nice, but that's secondary to (most of) us, and not
>why we're here.
>
>--
>Martin Cooper
>
>
>
>
Yes. This has been true right from the beginning.
>>
>>
>>>Struts does not need market-share to survive. All we need is a community of developers who use the product and want to help support it.
>>>
>>>
>>A community of developers would support a product only if they believe
>>in it. Many hard core struts users and developers are migrating to other
>>frameworks and this is a loss for the whole community. Struts 2.0 would
>>have a chance to bridge the gap between struts and other frameworks.
>>Since Struts 2.0 is still on the drawing board I am only advocating to
>>do it right even if that means breaking backward compatibility and
>>making major architecture changes.
>>
>>
>>
>>
You are right on the target. With the current thinking of either Struts
1.3 or Struts 2.0, i think Struts will be a de-facto standard of web
controller for other frameworks and contaiers.
BaTien
DBGROUPS
>>
>>
>>
>>> How many downloads we realize isn't important. Whether 90% or whether 10% of shipping applications use Struts isn't important. What's important is that Struts works well for the people who do want to use it, and that those people want to do the work to make it better.
>>>
>>>Of course, if we all find that JSF does most of what we all need, and we want to use it in our own applications, then Struts will quickly become whatever other JSF components we need to ship our own applications. But so long as products like JSF leave out components that real-life applications need, there will always be a Struts. From the beginning, it's always been about providing axles between the wheels that Java already has.
>>>
>>>-Ted.
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>.
>
>
>
Re: OT: Struts JSR?
Posted by Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org>.
On Sat, 20 Mar 2004, Nadeem Bitar wrote:
> On Sat, 2004-03-20 at 17:47 -0500, Ted Husted wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 18:53:58 -0800, Nadeem Bitar wrote:
> > > If for example JSF 2.0 is available, and Spring Framework is well
> > > integrated with JSF before Struts 2.0 is available, I strongly
> > > believe that struts won't have a place and would lose market shares.
> >
> > First let's be very clear.
> >
> > It's *not* about "market share".
> >
>
>
> I have to disagree with you on this one. Struts is the defacto standard
> because of its market share. It is well documented, it has a healthy
> community, and struts talent is available easily, because of its market
> share.
I think what Ted is trying to say is that the Struts developers do not
work on Struts to increase its market share, but because Struts works for
us, and we care to put in the time and effort to maintain and further
develop it. The fact that it has become sufficiently popular to turn into
a de facto standard is nice, but that's secondary to (most of) us, and not
why we're here.
--
Martin Cooper
>
>
> > Struts does not need market-share to survive. All we need is a community of developers who use the product and want to help support it.
>
> A community of developers would support a product only if they believe
> in it. Many hard core struts users and developers are migrating to other
> frameworks and this is a loss for the whole community. Struts 2.0 would
> have a chance to bridge the gap between struts and other frameworks.
> Since Struts 2.0 is still on the drawing board I am only advocating to
> do it right even if that means breaking backward compatibility and
> making major architecture changes.
>
>
>
>
> > How many downloads we realize isn't important. Whether 90% or whether 10% of shipping applications use Struts isn't important. What's important is that Struts works well for the people who do want to use it, and that those people want to do the work to make it better.
> >
> > Of course, if we all find that JSF does most of what we all need, and we want to use it in our own applications, then Struts will quickly become whatever other JSF components we need to ship our own applications. But so long as products like JSF leave out components that real-life applications need, there will always be a Struts. From the beginning, it's always been about providing axles between the wheels that Java already has.
> >
> > -Ted.
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: struts-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: struts-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
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Re: OT: Struts JSR?
Posted by Nadeem Bitar <na...@izucode.com>.
On Sat, 2004-03-20 at 17:47 -0500, Ted Husted wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 18:53:58 -0800, Nadeem Bitar wrote:
> > If for example JSF 2.0 is available, and Spring Framework is well
> > integrated with JSF before Struts 2.0 is available, I strongly
> > believe that struts won't have a place and would lose market shares.
>
> First let's be very clear.
>
> It's *not* about "market share".
>
I have to disagree with you on this one. Struts is the defacto standard
because of its market share. It is well documented, it has a healthy
community, and struts talent is available easily, because of its market
share.
> Struts does not need market-share to survive. All we need is a community of developers who use the product and want to help support it.
A community of developers would support a product only if they believe
in it. Many hard core struts users and developers are migrating to other
frameworks and this is a loss for the whole community. Struts 2.0 would
have a chance to bridge the gap between struts and other frameworks.
Since Struts 2.0 is still on the drawing board I am only advocating to
do it right even if that means breaking backward compatibility and
making major architecture changes.
> How many downloads we realize isn't important. Whether 90% or whether 10% of shipping applications use Struts isn't important. What's important is that Struts works well for the people who do want to use it, and that those people want to do the work to make it better.
>
> Of course, if we all find that JSF does most of what we all need, and we want to use it in our own applications, then Struts will quickly become whatever other JSF components we need to ship our own applications. But so long as products like JSF leave out components that real-life applications need, there will always be a Struts. From the beginning, it's always been about providing axles between the wheels that Java already has.
>
> -Ted.
>
>
>
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Re: OT: Struts JSR?
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 18:53:58 -0800, Nadeem Bitar wrote:
> If for example JSF 2.0 is available, and Spring Framework is well
> integrated with JSF before Struts 2.0 is available, I strongly
> believe that struts won't have a place and would lose market shares.
First let's be very clear.
It's *not* about "market share".
Struts does not need market-share to survive. All we need is a community of developers who use the product and want to help support it. How many downloads we realize isn't important. Whether 90% or whether 10% of shipping applications use Struts isn't important. What's important is that Struts works well for the people who do want to use it, and that those people want to do the work to make it better.
Of course, if we all find that JSF does most of what we all need, and we want to use it in our own applications, then Struts will quickly become whatever other JSF components we need to ship our own applications. But so long as products like JSF leave out components that real-life applications need, there will always be a Struts. From the beginning, it's always been about providing axles between the wheels that Java already has.
-Ted.
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Re: OT: Struts JSR?
Posted by Nadeem Bitar <na...@izucode.com>.
Since there is an overlap between struts and jsf, I highly doubt that
Struts would be accepted as a JSR.
I already expressed similar concerns regarding struts being replaced by
JSF. I believe the open source community works faster than JCP and if
struts want to be remain competitive and still be considered the defacto
java web application framework, the struts developers need to address
the concerns raised with the current struts architecture and deliver the
next generation application framework that would silence struts
critiques and improve productivity of struts developers.
Struts 2.0 roadmap already have very good points but the timeframe of
the availability would be critical for the future of struts.
If for example JSF 2.0 is available, and Spring Framework is well
integrated with JSF before Struts 2.0 is available, I strongly believe
that struts won't have a place and would lose market shares.
Spring 1.1 would offer amazing enhancement (JMX managed beans. JMS
support, Command framework, Swing support for rich clients..) and an
excellent architecture to build complex applications, combining that
with JSF component model would offer a very strong framework that's hard
to match.
On Fri, 2004-03-19 at 21:14 -0500, Thomas L Roche wrote:
> David Geary spoke on JSF at trijug.org M 15 Mar 04. My notes of
> his remarks include
>
> - Is JSF a replacement for Struts? Yes!
>
> - JSF is a standard. Struts will never be a standard.
>
> which I believe to be pretty-nearly-direct quotes. I'm assuming he
> really meant
>
> + JSF 1.0 can do pretty much everything Struts 1.1 can.
>
> + JSF is a JSR, and Struts will never be a JSR.
>
> but I'm wondering about that last statement. What prevents Struts
> from undergoing the JCP? Are there circumstances under which you
> might consider this?
>
>
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Re: OT: Struts JSR?
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
I think all of these things are already on the Struts Jericho list. The exception being workflow integration. The Struts Workflow is OK, but I personally don't like to use multiple action paths for workflows. Of course, the really cool thing about the Struts Chain is that it makes it very easy to "integrate" packages like this into Struts. Struts becomes less of a framework and more a framework for writing frameworks.
The other minor exception would be "Chained actions" . I doubt that any of us will ever recommend forwarding from one action to another to form a chain of responsibility. But, again, that's something that the Commons Chain can do much better than conventional Struts Actions ever could.
Here's my question to you: If you were a member of a development team, and someone handed you a list like this, what would you do first?
And, having answered the question, go ahead and do it, and post it here.
The thing about open source is this: You don't have to wish -- *you* can make it so.
-Ted.
On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 00:22:25 -0800, Nadeem Bitar wrote:
>>
>> Such as? What kinds of innovations are you looking for, and
>> specifically what kinds of things are you seeing other frameworks
>> use that Struts could benefit from?
>>
>
> I posted this before but here is my struts 2.0 wish list again:
>
>
> * Leverage JSF and JSTL remove struts tags that have similar
> functionality. * Support for IoC. * Cleaner interfaces. * Workflow
> integration. * Chained actions * Support for portlet(JSR-168)
>
>
> nadeem bitar
>
>
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Re: OT: Struts JSR?
Posted by Nadeem Bitar <na...@izucode.com>.
>
> Such as? What kinds of innovations are you looking for, and specifically
> what kinds of things are you seeing other frameworks use that Struts could
> benefit from?
>
I posted this before but here is my struts 2.0 wish list again:
* Leverage JSF and JSTL remove struts tags that have similar
functionality.
* Support for IoC.
* Cleaner interfaces.
* Workflow integration.
* Chained actions
* Support for portlet(JSR-168)
nadeem bitar
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Re: OT: Struts JSR?
Posted by Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org>.
On Sat, 20 Mar 2004, Nadeem Bitar wrote:
> On Sat, 2004-03-20 at 20:41 -0800, Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
>
> > Quoting Thomas L Roche <tl...@us.ibm.com>:
> >
> > > David Geary spoke on JSF at trijug.org M 15 Mar 04. My notes of
> > > his remarks include
> > >
> > > - Is JSF a replacement for Struts? Yes!
> > >
> > > - JSF is a standard. Struts will never be a standard.
> > >
> > > which I believe to be pretty-nearly-direct quotes. I'm assuming he
> > > really meant
> > >
> > > + JSF 1.0 can do pretty much everything Struts 1.1 can.
> > >
> >
> > There is definitely substantial overlap, especially in the HTML tags area, as
> > well as things like outcome-based navigation handling and creating form beans.
> > The design of JavaServer Faces benefited tremendously from the experience we've
> > had with Struts, and the design in these areas exceeds the current
> > functionality of Struts in many respects.
> >
> > Two particular features of Struts that are not present in JavaServer Faces 1.0
> > -- Tiles for layout management, and the Validator Framework for creating client
> > side JavaScript to enforce the rules (in addition to enforcing them at the
> > server). Fortunately, however, you can use these Struts features in
> > conjunction with JavaServer Faces by using the Struts-Faces integration
> > library.
> >
>
> With JSP2.0 attributes and fragments you can do advanced layout and
> templates without tiles. I am sure the validation would also be
> addressed with time.
>
>
> > There is a huge amount of momentum around Struts, and it's not going to go away
> > any time soon. That being said, however, it's time for Struts to start doing
> > some more innovation instead of incremental improvements, in order to remain as
> > popular for new development.
> >
>
> That is my point exactly and I am hoping that struts would innovate and
> implement some of the things other frameworks use.
Such as? What kinds of innovations are you looking for, and specifically
what kinds of things are you seeing other frameworks use that Struts could
benefit from?
--
Martin Cooper
> > > + JSF is a JSR, and Struts will never be a JSR.
> > >
> > > but I'm wondering about that last statement. What prevents Struts
> > > from undergoing the JCP? Are there circumstances under which you
> > > might consider this?
> > >
> >
> > For those not familiar with it, some brief background on the JCP would be
> > useful
> > here. More details are at the JCP web site <http://jcp.org>.
> >
> > Anyone who is a JCP member can propose a JSR. To be accepted, it would to be
> > accepted by the 16 members of the Executive Committee for the J2SE/J2EE
> > platform (note that Sun has one of these 16 votes -- people who believe that
> > Sun could "veto" a JSR proposal for something like this, even if Sun wanted to,
> > are misinformed; that veto ability only applies to language changes or "uber"
> > JSRs like the ones for the entire J2SE and J2EE platforms). The person(s) or
> > organization(s) proposing the JSR would need to plan on (if it's accepted)
> > providing a specification documenting the Java API or technology to be
> > standardized, a Technology Compatibility Kit (TCK) against which other
> > company's implementations of the technology can be tested, and a Reference
> > Implementation (RI) -- which must pass the TCK -- proving that the technology
> > can actually be implemented.
> >
> > If by the "you" in your question you are referring to the Struts committers, we
> > could indeed propose such a JSR (Apache is a JCP member, and is currently also
> > a voting member of the Executive Committee). But it wouldn't really be a JSR
> > to "standardize Struts" ... at most it could be a JSR to "standardize the APIs
> > supported by Struts." After all, the JCP is really a standards organization
> > that creates specifications to be implemented by others. Struts (and many
> > other open source projects) are often not implementations of some standard --
> > they can be seen as sort of a combination of spec and implementation rolled
> > into one. If the long term goal is that everyone continues to use the "one and
> > only" implementation, then the JCP is not really the right development approach.
> >
> >
> > Beyond that, the Executive Committee members will tend to not desire multiple
> > JSRs with large amounts of functional overlap -- which would definitely be the
> > case if someone tried to propose the Struts APIs. After all, these are
> > companies that would need to fund the development of their own versions of the
> > hypothetical "standard Struts", and the cost of integrating it into their own
> > products. It is much more cost effective (as well as less confusing and costly
> > for users) to support a single standard in each technology area, and add
> > functionality in future versions as it makes sense to standardize.
> >
> > As such, it seems much more likely that the Executive Committee would accept a
> > JSR for some future version of JavaServer Faces that built on top of of the 1.0
> > version than a JSR for a different way to solve many of the same problems. The
> > planning for the next steps in this direction, in fact, is already in
> > progress.
> >
> > We as Struts developers, then, should focus on adding additional functionality
> > to our "platform", to maintain and enhance its usefulness. Not being
> > constrained by a standards process, we can proceed at a pace solely limited by
> > our capabilities to imagine the new things and then implement and test them.
> >
> > Craig McClanahan
> >
> >
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>
>
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Re: OT: Struts JSR?
Posted by Nadeem Bitar <na...@izucode.com>.
On Sat, 2004-03-20 at 20:41 -0800, Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
> Quoting Thomas L Roche <tl...@us.ibm.com>:
>
> > David Geary spoke on JSF at trijug.org M 15 Mar 04. My notes of
> > his remarks include
> >
> > - Is JSF a replacement for Struts? Yes!
> >
> > - JSF is a standard. Struts will never be a standard.
> >
> > which I believe to be pretty-nearly-direct quotes. I'm assuming he
> > really meant
> >
> > + JSF 1.0 can do pretty much everything Struts 1.1 can.
> >
>
> There is definitely substantial overlap, especially in the HTML tags area, as
> well as things like outcome-based navigation handling and creating form beans.
> The design of JavaServer Faces benefited tremendously from the experience we've
> had with Struts, and the design in these areas exceeds the current
> functionality of Struts in many respects.
>
> Two particular features of Struts that are not present in JavaServer Faces 1.0
> -- Tiles for layout management, and the Validator Framework for creating client
> side JavaScript to enforce the rules (in addition to enforcing them at the
> server). Fortunately, however, you can use these Struts features in
> conjunction with JavaServer Faces by using the Struts-Faces integration
> library.
>
With JSP2.0 attributes and fragments you can do advanced layout and
templates without tiles. I am sure the validation would also be
addressed with time.
> There is a huge amount of momentum around Struts, and it's not going to go away
> any time soon. That being said, however, it's time for Struts to start doing
> some more innovation instead of incremental improvements, in order to remain as
> popular for new development.
>
That is my point exactly and I am hoping that struts would innovate and
implement some of the things other frameworks use.
> > + JSF is a JSR, and Struts will never be a JSR.
> >
> > but I'm wondering about that last statement. What prevents Struts
> > from undergoing the JCP? Are there circumstances under which you
> > might consider this?
> >
>
> For those not familiar with it, some brief background on the JCP would be
> useful
> here. More details are at the JCP web site <http://jcp.org>.
>
> Anyone who is a JCP member can propose a JSR. To be accepted, it would to be
> accepted by the 16 members of the Executive Committee for the J2SE/J2EE
> platform (note that Sun has one of these 16 votes -- people who believe that
> Sun could "veto" a JSR proposal for something like this, even if Sun wanted to,
> are misinformed; that veto ability only applies to language changes or "uber"
> JSRs like the ones for the entire J2SE and J2EE platforms). The person(s) or
> organization(s) proposing the JSR would need to plan on (if it's accepted)
> providing a specification documenting the Java API or technology to be
> standardized, a Technology Compatibility Kit (TCK) against which other
> company's implementations of the technology can be tested, and a Reference
> Implementation (RI) -- which must pass the TCK -- proving that the technology
> can actually be implemented.
>
> If by the "you" in your question you are referring to the Struts committers, we
> could indeed propose such a JSR (Apache is a JCP member, and is currently also
> a voting member of the Executive Committee). But it wouldn't really be a JSR
> to "standardize Struts" ... at most it could be a JSR to "standardize the APIs
> supported by Struts." After all, the JCP is really a standards organization
> that creates specifications to be implemented by others. Struts (and many
> other open source projects) are often not implementations of some standard --
> they can be seen as sort of a combination of spec and implementation rolled
> into one. If the long term goal is that everyone continues to use the "one and
> only" implementation, then the JCP is not really the right development approach.
>
>
> Beyond that, the Executive Committee members will tend to not desire multiple
> JSRs with large amounts of functional overlap -- which would definitely be the
> case if someone tried to propose the Struts APIs. After all, these are
> companies that would need to fund the development of their own versions of the
> hypothetical "standard Struts", and the cost of integrating it into their own
> products. It is much more cost effective (as well as less confusing and costly
> for users) to support a single standard in each technology area, and add
> functionality in future versions as it makes sense to standardize.
>
> As such, it seems much more likely that the Executive Committee would accept a
> JSR for some future version of JavaServer Faces that built on top of of the 1.0
> version than a JSR for a different way to solve many of the same problems. The
> planning for the next steps in this direction, in fact, is already in
> progress.
>
> We as Struts developers, then, should focus on adding additional functionality
> to our "platform", to maintain and enhance its usefulness. Not being
> constrained by a standards process, we can proceed at a pace solely limited by
> our capabilities to imagine the new things and then implement and test them.
>
> Craig McClanahan
>
>
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Re: OT: Struts JSR?
Posted by "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org>.
Quoting Thomas L Roche <tl...@us.ibm.com>:
> David Geary spoke on JSF at trijug.org M 15 Mar 04. My notes of
> his remarks include
>
> - Is JSF a replacement for Struts? Yes!
>
> - JSF is a standard. Struts will never be a standard.
>
> which I believe to be pretty-nearly-direct quotes. I'm assuming he
> really meant
>
> + JSF 1.0 can do pretty much everything Struts 1.1 can.
>
There is definitely substantial overlap, especially in the HTML tags area, as
well as things like outcome-based navigation handling and creating form beans.
The design of JavaServer Faces benefited tremendously from the experience we've
had with Struts, and the design in these areas exceeds the current
functionality of Struts in many respects.
Two particular features of Struts that are not present in JavaServer Faces 1.0
-- Tiles for layout management, and the Validator Framework for creating client
side JavaScript to enforce the rules (in addition to enforcing them at the
server). Fortunately, however, you can use these Struts features in
conjunction with JavaServer Faces by using the Struts-Faces integration
library.
There is a huge amount of momentum around Struts, and it's not going to go away
any time soon. That being said, however, it's time for Struts to start doing
some more innovation instead of incremental improvements, in order to remain as
popular for new development.
> + JSF is a JSR, and Struts will never be a JSR.
>
> but I'm wondering about that last statement. What prevents Struts
> from undergoing the JCP? Are there circumstances under which you
> might consider this?
>
For those not familiar with it, some brief background on the JCP would be
useful
here. More details are at the JCP web site <http://jcp.org>.
Anyone who is a JCP member can propose a JSR. To be accepted, it would to be
accepted by the 16 members of the Executive Committee for the J2SE/J2EE
platform (note that Sun has one of these 16 votes -- people who believe that
Sun could "veto" a JSR proposal for something like this, even if Sun wanted to,
are misinformed; that veto ability only applies to language changes or "uber"
JSRs like the ones for the entire J2SE and J2EE platforms). The person(s) or
organization(s) proposing the JSR would need to plan on (if it's accepted)
providing a specification documenting the Java API or technology to be
standardized, a Technology Compatibility Kit (TCK) against which other
company's implementations of the technology can be tested, and a Reference
Implementation (RI) -- which must pass the TCK -- proving that the technology
can actually be implemented.
If by the "you" in your question you are referring to the Struts committers, we
could indeed propose such a JSR (Apache is a JCP member, and is currently also
a voting member of the Executive Committee). But it wouldn't really be a JSR
to "standardize Struts" ... at most it could be a JSR to "standardize the APIs
supported by Struts." After all, the JCP is really a standards organization
that creates specifications to be implemented by others. Struts (and many
other open source projects) are often not implementations of some standard --
they can be seen as sort of a combination of spec and implementation rolled
into one. If the long term goal is that everyone continues to use the "one and
only" implementation, then the JCP is not really the right development approach.
Beyond that, the Executive Committee members will tend to not desire multiple
JSRs with large amounts of functional overlap -- which would definitely be the
case if someone tried to propose the Struts APIs. After all, these are
companies that would need to fund the development of their own versions of the
hypothetical "standard Struts", and the cost of integrating it into their own
products. It is much more cost effective (as well as less confusing and costly
for users) to support a single standard in each technology area, and add
functionality in future versions as it makes sense to standardize.
As such, it seems much more likely that the Executive Committee would accept a
JSR for some future version of JavaServer Faces that built on top of of the 1.0
version than a JSR for a different way to solve many of the same problems. The
planning for the next steps in this direction, in fact, is already in
progress.
We as Struts developers, then, should focus on adding additional functionality
to our "platform", to maintain and enhance its usefulness. Not being
constrained by a standards process, we can proceed at a pace solely limited by
our capabilities to imagine the new things and then implement and test them.
Craig McClanahan
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Re: Struts JSR?
Posted by Nathan Bubna <na...@esha.com>.
Craig R. McClanahan said:
...
> My personal vision is that Struts developers will focus their energy on the
> controller and model tiers, leveraging the existence of standard (and not)
> technologies in the view tier.
as someone using and working on the VelocityStruts project, this is great to
hear! i do hope this is the path the Struts project/community takes.
> The Struts HTML tags have had their
> three years of fame :-) -- it's time to get on with life and develop
> innovative solutions where there are still holes in the big picture.
> But that's up to each of us individually, of course.
...
couldn't agree more!
Nathan Bubna
nathan@esha.com
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RE: Struts JSR?
Posted by "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org>.
Quoting Steve Raeburn <sr...@apache.org>:
> Like most people, I imagine, I still haven't had time to do more than
> give JSF a cursory glance. It's clear that there is some overlap between
> JSF and Struts. However, that does not mean that one or other will
> simply disappear.
>
> Craig has previously stated that there is still a role for Struts to
> play. He has demonstrated by developing a means to integrate the two and
> making it available in the Struts distribution. See Struts-Faces in the
> Struts contrib directory.
>
> As the creator of Struts and spec lead for JSF, I think Craig is in a
> unique position to understand where all this is going. I take the fact
> that he has accepted the role of Chair of the newly formed Apache Struts
> PMC as a sign that he believes Struts has a strong future and that he's
> willing to help its continuing evolution and growth.
>
Yep.
> Let me be very clear that I'm not trying to speak for Craig here. I'm
> just relaying how *I* view things right now. As I don't yet have any
> meaningful personal experience with JSF, I have to gauge things based on
> what others are saying and doing. I would rather base *my* actions and
> effort on Craig's direction than on the fears of others who also have no
> meaningful experience of JSF (or Struts).
>
> Bottom line is, Struts will evolve to fill any need not met by the
> standards. Which is pretty much how the whole thing got started.
>
My personal vision is that Struts developers will focus their energy on the
controller and model tiers, leveraging the existence of standard (and not)
technologies in the view tier. The Struts HTML tags have had their three years
of fame :-) -- it's time to get on with life and develop innovative solutions
where there are still holes in the big picture. But that's up to each of us
individually, of course.
There is going to be tremendous support for JSF in the industry; fortunately, we
can continue to maintain and enhance Struts without having to give that up
(thanks to the integration library). Instead, we can embrace it (just like we
did with JSTL, and are talking about doing with Servlet 2.4 and JSP 2.0).
> Steve
>
Craig
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RE: Struts JSR?
Posted by Steve Raeburn <sr...@apache.org>.
Like most people, I imagine, I still haven't had time to do more than
give JSF a cursory glance. It's clear that there is some overlap between
JSF and Struts. However, that does not mean that one or other will
simply disappear.
Craig has previously stated that there is still a role for Struts to
play. He has demonstrated by developing a means to integrate the two and
making it available in the Struts distribution. See Struts-Faces in the
Struts contrib directory.
As the creator of Struts and spec lead for JSF, I think Craig is in a
unique position to understand where all this is going. I take the fact
that he has accepted the role of Chair of the newly formed Apache Struts
PMC as a sign that he believes Struts has a strong future and that he's
willing to help its continuing evolution and growth.
Let me be very clear that I'm not trying to speak for Craig here. I'm
just relaying how *I* view things right now. As I don't yet have any
meaningful personal experience with JSF, I have to gauge things based on
what others are saying and doing. I would rather base *my* actions and
effort on Craig's direction than on the fears of others who also have no
meaningful experience of JSF (or Struts).
Bottom line is, Struts will evolve to fill any need not met by the
standards. Which is pretty much how the whole thing got started.
Steve
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thomas L Roche [mailto:tlroche@us.ibm.com]
> Sent: March 19, 2004 6:14 PM
> To: struts-dev@jakarta.apache.org
> Subject: OT: Struts JSR?
>
>
> David Geary spoke on JSF at trijug.org M 15 Mar 04. My notes of
> his remarks include
>
> - Is JSF a replacement for Struts? Yes!
>
> - JSF is a standard. Struts will never be a standard.
>
> which I believe to be pretty-nearly-direct quotes. I'm assuming he
> really meant
>
> + JSF 1.0 can do pretty much everything Struts 1.1 can.
>
> + JSF is a JSR, and Struts will never be a JSR.
>
> but I'm wondering about that last statement. What prevents Struts
> from undergoing the JCP? Are there circumstances under which you
> might consider this?
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: struts-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: struts-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
>
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