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Posted to users@openoffice.apache.org by Johnny Rosenberg <gu...@gmail.com> on 2013/06/09 20:18:55 UTC
[DISCUSS] ODF file formats vs Zip
When working with big files, in my case spreadsheets, but possibly
other types of office files, saving the file will in some cases take a
lot of time. This is particularly annoying when auto-saving is
enabled. As I understand it, an ODF is a couple of files, most of them
XML files, brought together in a single file, then compressed to the
zip format.
Does the ODF standard specify the compression ratio? If not, it would
be convenient if the user could specify that. For example, if I prefer
saving to be as fast as possible, I could specify no compression at
all, just bring the files together in a tar-ball (if that's allowed)
or as an uncompressed zip.
I don't know how much of the required time to save a file is used for
compression, but I imagine that there is room for speed enhancements
here.
If this is not the way to go, maybe the extension could change as
well, indicating this is another file format, although conversion to
and from ODF should be very straight forward…
Thoughts about this?
Personally I just thing that something must be done about the auto-save speed.
And also, when opening a spreadsheet, ”adapting row heights”, what is
that? Is that really necessary? Shouldn't row heights already be
specified in the ODF file? It's maybe not the same subject, but in a
way it is about time consuming saving and opening of different kinds
of ODF files…
Johnny Rosenberg
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Re: [DISCUSS] ODF file formats vs Zip
Posted by Oliver Brinzing <Ol...@gmx.de>.
Have you seen http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Performance?
There are several issues about performance
Regards
Oliver
GnuPG key 0xCFD04A45: 8822 057F 4956 46D3 352C 1A06 4E2C AB40 CFD0 4A45
Re: [DISCUSS] ODF file formats vs Zip
Posted by Johnny Rosenberg <gu...@gmail.com>.
2013/6/10 Richard Detwiler <RL...@aol.com>:
> Girvin R. Herr wrote:
>>
>> ....
>
>
>> Probably like you, I find the few seconds it takes to save the file
>> irritating sometimes, especially since only about one keystroke is saved
>> while it is going on. Worse, it seems destined (designed?) to pick a time
>> that is the most irritating to me - just as I start something, rarely when I
>> am just looking at what I have written and/or thinking about something.
>> Better, would be to have the save go on in the background, while one
>> continues working. If that is too dangerous, take a snapshot into a
>> temporary file and save that - all in the background. One should not even be
>> aware that a save is going on in the background. If it really bothers you,
>> you can turn the autosave off in the Tools->Options dialog. I also check the
>> "Always create backup file" (.bak) in the same dialog. This acts much like
>> the old editors and word processors - saving the original before any editing
>> takes place. The downside is the risk of losing a whole day's work, and the
>> restore after LO crash function.
>> Girvin Herr
>>
>>
>
> I always have auto-save off for those reasons, and instead I'm in the habit
> of very frequently saving the file (which takes about half a second using
> Ctrl+S (on Windows, may be different on other operating systems).
I think the time will be more dependent on the contents of your
document and the speed of your hardware. When I say several seconds, I
am talking about a spreadsheet with thousands of rows and maybe 20-30
columns and 5-10 sheets (not all of them that populated, though). Of
course, when working with a smaller document, saving time is not an
issue at all.
>That way,
> the save can happen when I want it to (like when I'm looking at what I've
> written or thinking about something ...).
>
> Also, I don't know if this is the case with auto-save, but when manually
> saving, I'm pretty sure that things can not be "undone" prior to the save.
> If this is indeed the case with auto-save, this is another very good reason
> not to use it. You may have done something you really want to undo, but if
> the auto-save happens, you can't. (Again, I'm not positive whether this is
> the case with auto-save like with manual save, but I'm guessing it may be.)
>
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] ODF file formats vs Zip
Posted by Dale Erwin <da...@casaerwin.org>.
At my age, I can't be trusted to remember to save it with enough
frequency to be beneficial, so I'd rather "suffer" the few moments'
delay rather than lose several hours of work which has happened to me in
other apps that don't have such a feature.
Dale Erwin
Jr. 28 de Julio 657, Depto. 03
Magdalena del Mar, Lima 17 PERU
http://leather.casaerwin.org
On 6/9/2013 7:16 PM, Richard Detwiler wrote:
> Girvin R. Herr wrote:
>> ....
>
>> Probably like you, I find the few seconds it takes to save the file
>> irritating sometimes, especially since only about one keystroke is
>> saved while it is going on. Worse, it seems destined (designed?) to
>> pick a time that is the most irritating to me - just as I start
>> something, rarely when I am just looking at what I have written
>> and/or thinking about something. Better, would be to have the save go
>> on in the background, while one continues working. If that is too
>> dangerous, take a snapshot into a temporary file and save that - all
>> in the background. One should not even be aware that a save is going
>> on in the background. If it really bothers you, you can turn the
>> autosave off in the Tools->Options dialog. I also check the "Always
>> create backup file" (.bak) in the same dialog. This acts much like
>> the old editors and word processors - saving the original before any
>> editing takes place. The downside is the risk of losing a whole day's
>> work, and the restore after LO crash function.
>> Girvin Herr
>>
>>
>
> I always have auto-save off for those reasons, and instead I'm in the
> habit of very frequently saving the file (which takes about half a
> second using Ctrl+S (on Windows, may be different on other operating
> systems). That way, the save can happen when I want it to (like when
> I'm looking at what I've written or thinking about something ...).
>
> Also, I don't know if this is the case with auto-save, but when
> manually saving, I'm pretty sure that things can not be "undone" prior
> to the save. If this is indeed the case with auto-save, this is
> another very good reason not to use it. You may have done something
> you really want to undo, but if the auto-save happens, you can't.
> (Again, I'm not positive whether this is the case with auto-save like
> with manual save, but I'm guessing it may be.)
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] ODF file formats vs Zip
Posted by Hagar Delest <ha...@laposte.net>.
Le 23/06/2013 18:14, Dennis E. Hamilton a écrit :
> Well, the Saved copy doesn't preserve Undo history, and Hagar is correct: Performing Save does not clear the Undo history for the document that remains open. Whether an AutoSave recovery will recover the Undo history to that point is something that can be verified by an experiment of some kind.
No, AutoSave does not recover the undo history.
> I also realize that I don't know if AutoSave is completely separate from the document recovery material used after crashes and other situations or that's what AutoSave is updating. More experimentation! Helpful documentation?
AutoSave is only used in case of crash for the recovery process.
Hagar
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RE: [DISCUSS] ODF file formats vs Zip
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
Well, the Saved copy doesn't preserve Undo history, and Hagar is correct: Performing Save does not clear the Undo history for the document that remains open. Whether an AutoSave recovery will recover the Undo history to that point is something that can be verified by an experiment of some kind.
I also realize that I don't know if AutoSave is completely separate from the document recovery material used after crashes and other situations or that's what AutoSave is updating. More experimentation! Helpful documentation?
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Hagar Delest [mailto:hagar.delest@laposte.net]
Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 03:37 AM
To: users@openoffice.apache.org
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] ODF file formats vs Zip
Le 10/06/2013 02:16, Richard Detwiler a écrit :
> Also, I don't know if this is the case with auto-save, but when manually saving, I'm pretty sure that things can not be "undone" prior to the save. If this is indeed the case with auto-save, this is another very good reason not to use it. You may have done something you really want to undo, but if the auto-save happens, you can't. (Again, I'm not positive whether this is the case with auto-save like with manual save, but I'm guessing it may be.)
No. The auto-save operation does not reset the undo history (same with standard save).
Hagar
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Re: [Save and Undo]
Posted by Brian Barker <b....@btinternet.com>.
At 19:22 23/06/2013 -0500, Dale Erwin wrote:
>I do know, however, that no matter how many times the file has been
>autosaved, if I close the document without an explicit save, it will
>revert back to the same state it was in before it was opened.
Good. If this were not so, surely no-one would dream of using the product?
Brian Barker
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Re: [Save and Undo]
Posted by Dale Erwin <da...@casaerwin.org>.
I haven't actually tested this explicitly yet, but I certainly will do
so very soon. I just never thought it would be possible so I never
tried it. I do know, however, that no many how many times the file has
been autosaved, if I close the document without an explicit save, it
will revert back to the same state it was in before it was opened.
Dale Erwin
Jr. 28 de Julio 657, Depto. 03
Magdalena del Mar, Lima 17 PERU
http://leather.casaerwin.org
On 6/23/2013 6:40 PM, Brian Barker wrote:
> At 18:12 23/06/2013 -0500, Dale Erwin wrote:
>> Are you saying that if, while editing a document, I do an explicit
>> save, I can still use the undo feature for anything I have changed
>> during the current session?
>
> Yes. (Up to the maximum number of Undos, of course - is that 30 by
> default?)
>
> What happened when you tested this yourself?
>
> Brian Barker
>
>
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Re: [Save and Undo]
Posted by Brian Barker <b....@btinternet.com>.
At 18:12 23/06/2013 -0500, Dale Erwin wrote:
>Are you saying that if, while editing a document, I do an explicit
>save, I can still use the undo feature for anything I have changed
>during the current session?
Yes. (Up to the maximum number of Undos, of course - is that 30 by default?)
What happened when you tested this yourself?
Brian Barker
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Re: [DISCUSS] ODF file formats vs Zip
Posted by Dale Erwin <da...@casaerwin.org>.
Are you saying that if, while editing a document, I do an explicit save,
I can still use the undo feature for anything I have changed during the
current session?
Dale Erwin
Jr. 28 de Julio 657, Depto. 03
Magdalena del Mar, Lima 17 PERU
http://leather.casaerwin.org
On 6/23/2013 5:37 AM, Hagar Delest wrote:
> Le 10/06/2013 02:16, Richard Detwiler a écrit :
>> Also, I don't know if this is the case with auto-save, but when
>> manually saving, I'm pretty sure that things can not be "undone"
>> prior to the save. If this is indeed the case with auto-save, this is
>> another very good reason not to use it. You may have done something
>> you really want to undo, but if the auto-save happens, you can't.
>> (Again, I'm not positive whether this is the case with auto-save like
>> with manual save, but I'm guessing it may be.)
>
> No. The auto-save operation does not reset the undo history (same with
> standard save).
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Re: [DISCUSS] ODF file formats vs Zip
Posted by Hagar Delest <ha...@laposte.net>.
Of course, if you close your document without saving, it will leave your document in the state you last saved it manually.
AutoSave is only used in case of crash. Some users think that it's feature that make regular backups, actually saving the file for future use, which is not true. Perhaps the name should be changed to "Crash info"? Too negative perhaps.
Hagar
Le 24/06/2013 01:10, Dale Erwin a écrit :
> I don't think that's true. I think that if you close a document without saving, it will revert back to its state before opening it even if it has been autosaved during the editing process. Only if you explicitly save it will you be unable to do that. It's as though the only purpose of autosave is the event of a system failure. In the even of a system failure you have the option at reboot of recuperating all changes made up to the last autosave, but you can decline.
>
> Dale Erwin
> Jr. 28 de Julio 657, Depto. 03
> Magdalena del Mar, Lima 17 PERU
> http://leather.casaerwin.org
>
> On 6/23/2013 5:37 AM, Hagar Delest wrote:
>> Le 10/06/2013 02:16, Richard Detwiler a écrit :
>>> Also, I don't know if this is the case with auto-save, but when manually saving, I'm pretty sure that things can not be "undone" prior to the save. If this is indeed the case with auto-save, this is another very good reason not to use it. You may have done something you really want to undo, but if the auto-save happens, you can't. (Again, I'm not positive whether this is the case with auto-save like with manual save, but I'm guessing it may be.)
>>
>> No. The auto-save operation does not reset the undo history (same with standard save).
>>
>> Hagar
>>
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>>
>>
>
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] ODF file formats vs Zip
Posted by Dale Erwin <da...@casaerwin.org>.
I don't think that's true. I think that if you close a document without
saving, it will revert back to its state before opening it even if it
has been autosaved during the editing process. Only if you explicitly
save it will you be unable to do that. It's as though the only purpose
of autosave is the event of a system failure. In the even of a system
failure you have the option at reboot of recuperating all changes made
up to the last autosave, but you can decline.
Dale Erwin
Jr. 28 de Julio 657, Depto. 03
Magdalena del Mar, Lima 17 PERU
http://leather.casaerwin.org
On 6/23/2013 5:37 AM, Hagar Delest wrote:
> Le 10/06/2013 02:16, Richard Detwiler a écrit :
>> Also, I don't know if this is the case with auto-save, but when
>> manually saving, I'm pretty sure that things can not be "undone"
>> prior to the save. If this is indeed the case with auto-save, this is
>> another very good reason not to use it. You may have done something
>> you really want to undo, but if the auto-save happens, you can't.
>> (Again, I'm not positive whether this is the case with auto-save like
>> with manual save, but I'm guessing it may be.)
>
> No. The auto-save operation does not reset the undo history (same with
> standard save).
>
> Hagar
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] ODF file formats vs Zip
Posted by Hagar Delest <ha...@laposte.net>.
Le 10/06/2013 02:16, Richard Detwiler a écrit :
> Also, I don't know if this is the case with auto-save, but when manually saving, I'm pretty sure that things can not be "undone" prior to the save. If this is indeed the case with auto-save, this is another very good reason not to use it. You may have done something you really want to undo, but if the auto-save happens, you can't. (Again, I'm not positive whether this is the case with auto-save like with manual save, but I'm guessing it may be.)
No. The auto-save operation does not reset the undo history (same with standard save).
Hagar
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Re: [DISCUSS] ODF file formats vs Zip
Posted by Dave Barton <db...@tasit.net>.
-------- Original Message --------
From: Richard Detwiler <RL...@aol.com>
To: users@openoffice.apache.org
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2013 20:16:32 -0400
> Girvin R. Herr wrote:
>> ....
>
>> Probably like you, I find the few seconds it takes to save the file
>> irritating sometimes, especially since only about one keystroke is
>> saved while it is going on. Worse, it seems destined (designed?) to
>> pick a time that is the most irritating to me - just as I start
>> something, rarely when I am just looking at what I have written and/or
>> thinking about something. Better, would be to have the save go on in
>> the background, while one continues working. If that is too dangerous,
>> take a snapshot into a temporary file and save that - all in the
>> background. One should not even be aware that a save is going on in
>> the background. If it really bothers you, you can turn the autosave
>> off in the Tools->Options dialog. I also check the "Always create
>> backup file" (.bak) in the same dialog. This acts much like the old
>> editors and word processors - saving the original before any editing
>> takes place. The downside is the risk of losing a whole day's work,
>> and the restore after LO crash function.
>> Girvin Herr
>>
>>
>
> I always have auto-save off for those reasons, and instead I'm in the
> habit of very frequently saving the file (which takes about half a
> second using Ctrl+S (on Windows, may be different on other operating
> systems). That way, the save can happen when I want it to (like when I'm
> looking at what I've written or thinking about something ...).
>
> Also, I don't know if this is the case with auto-save, but when manually
> saving, I'm pretty sure that things can not be "undone" prior to the
> save. If this is indeed the case with auto-save, this is another very
> good reason not to use it. You may have done something you really want
> to undo, but if the auto-save happens, you can't. (Again, I'm not
> positive whether this is the case with auto-save like with manual save,
> but I'm guessing it may be.)
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
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>
>
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] ODF file formats vs Zip
Posted by Johnny Rosenberg <gu...@gmail.com>.
2013/6/10 Kadal Amutham <vk...@gmail.com>:
> To reduce the save time, split the files into many, and have links between
> files. This Feature should be available in AOO. Then your saving time will
> be much faster. In case of file corruption due to any reason, only that
> file get corrupted and the remaining file may remain safe
It would probably help some, but I would still end up with at least
one giant file which holds all the main data of thousands of rows
(increasing all the time) and maybe 10-20 columns.
Still, finding a way to make saving faster wouldn't kill someone, would it?
It seems like every time someone suggest an improvement, or at least a
change, there are numerous arguments why this shouldn't be done, no
matter what it is. Maybe ”development” doesn't mean the same thing to
everyone.
So well, let's just forget about all this and continue our lives.
Sorry for annoying everyone.
Johnny Rosenberg
>
> With Warm Regards
>
> V.Kadal Amutham
> 919444360480
> 914422396480
>
>
> On 10 June 2013 05:46, Richard Detwiler <RL...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> Girvin R. Herr wrote:
>>
>>> ....
>>>
>>
>> Probably like you, I find the few seconds it takes to save the file
>>> irritating sometimes, especially since only about one keystroke is saved
>>> while it is going on. Worse, it seems destined (designed?) to pick a time
>>> that is the most irritating to me - just as I start something, rarely when
>>> I am just looking at what I have written and/or thinking about something.
>>> Better, would be to have the save go on in the background, while one
>>> continues working. If that is too dangerous, take a snapshot into a
>>> temporary file and save that - all in the background. One should not even
>>> be aware that a save is going on in the background. If it really bothers
>>> you, you can turn the autosave off in the Tools->Options dialog. I also
>>> check the "Always create backup file" (.bak) in the same dialog. This acts
>>> much like the old editors and word processors - saving the original before
>>> any editing takes place. The downside is the risk of losing a whole day's
>>> work, and the restore after LO crash function.
>>> Girvin Herr
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> I always have auto-save off for those reasons, and instead I'm in the
>> habit of very frequently saving the file (which takes about half a second
>> using Ctrl+S (on Windows, may be different on other operating systems).
>> That way, the save can happen when I want it to (like when I'm looking at
>> what I've written or thinking about something ...).
>>
>> Also, I don't know if this is the case with auto-save, but when manually
>> saving, I'm pretty sure that things can not be "undone" prior to the save.
>> If this is indeed the case with auto-save, this is another very good reason
>> not to use it. You may have done something you really want to undo, but if
>> the auto-save happens, you can't. (Again, I'm not positive whether this is
>> the case with auto-save like with manual save, but I'm guessing it may be.)
>>
>>
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Re: [DISCUSS] ODF file formats vs Zip
Posted by Dale Erwin <da...@casaerwin.org>.
It does. I use it for all my books even tough the tutorial discourages it.
Dale Erwin
Jr. 28 de Julio 657, Depto. 03
Magdalena del Mar, Lima 17 PERU
http://leather.casaerwin.org
On 6/11/2013 4:17 AM, Maciej Jaros wrote:
> Kadal Amutham (2013-06-10 03:40):
>> To reduce the save time, split the files into many, and have links
>> between
>> files. This Feature should be available in AOO. Then your saving time
>> will
>> be much faster. In case of file corruption due to any reason, only that
>> file get corrupted and the remaining file may remain safe
>>
>> With Warm Regards
>>
>> V.Kadal Amutham
>> 919444360480
>> 914422396480
>
> Would be extremely helpful if OO would allow creating a master
> document that would automatically link chapters (allowing going back
> and forth, adding new one, adding existing file as a chapter...). Then
> you would have to be able to easily generate common TOC and merge
> documents into single PDF and such things. This would make the
> scenario feasible. Otherwise it's kind of in practical to divide
> documents.
>
> Regards,
> Nux.
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] ODF file formats vs Zip
Posted by Maciej Jaros <ma...@mol.com.pl>.
Kadal Amutham (2013-06-10 03:40):
> To reduce the save time, split the files into many, and have links between
> files. This Feature should be available in AOO. Then your saving time will
> be much faster. In case of file corruption due to any reason, only that
> file get corrupted and the remaining file may remain safe
>
> With Warm Regards
>
> V.Kadal Amutham
> 919444360480
> 914422396480
Would be extremely helpful if OO would allow creating a master document
that would automatically link chapters (allowing going back and forth,
adding new one, adding existing file as a chapter...). Then you would
have to be able to easily generate common TOC and merge documents into
single PDF and such things. This would make the scenario feasible.
Otherwise it's kind of in practical to divide documents.
Regards,
Nux.
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Re: [DISCUSS] ODF file formats vs Zip
Posted by Kadal Amutham <vk...@gmail.com>.
To reduce the save time, split the files into many, and have links between
files. This Feature should be available in AOO. Then your saving time will
be much faster. In case of file corruption due to any reason, only that
file get corrupted and the remaining file may remain safe
With Warm Regards
V.Kadal Amutham
919444360480
914422396480
On 10 June 2013 05:46, Richard Detwiler <RL...@aol.com> wrote:
> Girvin R. Herr wrote:
>
>> ....
>>
>
> Probably like you, I find the few seconds it takes to save the file
>> irritating sometimes, especially since only about one keystroke is saved
>> while it is going on. Worse, it seems destined (designed?) to pick a time
>> that is the most irritating to me - just as I start something, rarely when
>> I am just looking at what I have written and/or thinking about something.
>> Better, would be to have the save go on in the background, while one
>> continues working. If that is too dangerous, take a snapshot into a
>> temporary file and save that - all in the background. One should not even
>> be aware that a save is going on in the background. If it really bothers
>> you, you can turn the autosave off in the Tools->Options dialog. I also
>> check the "Always create backup file" (.bak) in the same dialog. This acts
>> much like the old editors and word processors - saving the original before
>> any editing takes place. The downside is the risk of losing a whole day's
>> work, and the restore after LO crash function.
>> Girvin Herr
>>
>>
>>
> I always have auto-save off for those reasons, and instead I'm in the
> habit of very frequently saving the file (which takes about half a second
> using Ctrl+S (on Windows, may be different on other operating systems).
> That way, the save can happen when I want it to (like when I'm looking at
> what I've written or thinking about something ...).
>
> Also, I don't know if this is the case with auto-save, but when manually
> saving, I'm pretty sure that things can not be "undone" prior to the save.
> If this is indeed the case with auto-save, this is another very good reason
> not to use it. You may have done something you really want to undo, but if
> the auto-save happens, you can't. (Again, I'm not positive whether this is
> the case with auto-save like with manual save, but I'm guessing it may be.)
>
>
> ------------------------------**------------------------------**---------
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>
Re: [DISCUSS] ODF file formats vs Zip
Posted by Richard Detwiler <RL...@aol.com>.
Girvin R. Herr wrote:
> ....
> Probably like you, I find the few seconds it takes to save the file
> irritating sometimes, especially since only about one keystroke is
> saved while it is going on. Worse, it seems destined (designed?) to
> pick a time that is the most irritating to me - just as I start
> something, rarely when I am just looking at what I have written and/or
> thinking about something. Better, would be to have the save go on in
> the background, while one continues working. If that is too dangerous,
> take a snapshot into a temporary file and save that - all in the
> background. One should not even be aware that a save is going on in
> the background. If it really bothers you, you can turn the autosave
> off in the Tools->Options dialog. I also check the "Always create
> backup file" (.bak) in the same dialog. This acts much like the old
> editors and word processors - saving the original before any editing
> takes place. The downside is the risk of losing a whole day's work,
> and the restore after LO crash function.
> Girvin Herr
>
>
I always have auto-save off for those reasons, and instead I'm in the
habit of very frequently saving the file (which takes about half a
second using Ctrl+S (on Windows, may be different on other operating
systems). That way, the save can happen when I want it to (like when I'm
looking at what I've written or thinking about something ...).
Also, I don't know if this is the case with auto-save, but when manually
saving, I'm pretty sure that things can not be "undone" prior to the
save. If this is indeed the case with auto-save, this is another very
good reason not to use it. You may have done something you really want
to undo, but if the auto-save happens, you can't. (Again, I'm not
positive whether this is the case with auto-save like with manual save,
but I'm guessing it may be.)
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Re: [DISCUSS] ODF file formats vs Zip
Posted by "Girvin R. Herr" <gi...@sbcglobal.net>.
Johnny Rosenberg wrote:
> When working with big files, in my case spreadsheets, but possibly
> other types of office files, saving the file will in some cases take a
> lot of time. This is particularly annoying when auto-saving is
> enabled. As I understand it, an ODF is a couple of files, most of them
> XML files, brought together in a single file, then compressed to the
> zip format.
>
> Does the ODF standard specify the compression ratio? If not, it would
> be convenient if the user could specify that. For example, if I prefer
> saving to be as fast as possible, I could specify no compression at
> all, just bring the files together in a tar-ball (if that's allowed)
> or as an uncompressed zip.
>
> I don't know how much of the required time to save a file is used for
> compression, but I imagine that there is room for speed enhancements
> here.
>
> If this is not the way to go, maybe the extension could change as
> well, indicating this is another file format, although conversion to
> and from ODF should be very straight forward…
>
> Thoughts about this?
>
> Personally I just thing that something must be done about the auto-save speed.
>
> And also, when opening a spreadsheet, ”adapting row heights”, what is
> that? Is that really necessary? Shouldn't row heights already be
> specified in the ODF file? It's maybe not the same subject, but in a
> way it is about time consuming saving and opening of different kinds
> of ODF files…
>
>
>
> Johnny Rosenberg
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
Probably like you, I find the few seconds it takes to save the file
irritating sometimes, especially since only about one keystroke is saved
while it is going on. Worse, it seems destined (designed?) to pick a
time that is the most irritating to me - just as I start something,
rarely when I am just looking at what I have written and/or thinking
about something. Better, would be to have the save go on in the
background, while one continues working. If that is too dangerous, take
a snapshot into a temporary file and save that - all in the background.
One should not even be aware that a save is going on in the background.
If it really bothers you, you can turn the autosave off in the
Tools->Options dialog. I also check the "Always create backup file"
(.bak) in the same dialog. This acts much like the old editors and word
processors - saving the original before any editing takes place. The
downside is the risk of losing a whole day's work, and the restore after
LO crash function.
Girvin Herr
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Re: [DISCUSS] ODF file formats vs Zip
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 12:22 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
<de...@acm.org> wrote:
> Looking into a document having images with WinZip, it appears that GIF and PNG files are not compressed and SVM files are (with great improvement). The content.xml files, which can be megabytes long, benefit greatly from compression (9:1 easily).
>
> Apache OpenOffice 3.4.1 and older versions of OpenOffice.org will compress the Thumbnail PNG. Not sure why, but it is a small file so it shouldn't matter in terms of Save performance.
>
If you really want to try a monster test case, try the spreadsheets
from this old ZDNet article from 2005:
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/ou/performance-analysis-of-openoffice-and-ms-office/120
They are in pre-ODF XML formats, but can easily be converted. Try it
as DOC and as ODS.
The files themselves look quite reasonable, due to the ZIP
compression. But then try unzipping the file. You'll see the
content.xml is much, much larger.
The problem we have with large ODF spreadsheets is our cell-by-cell
table markup is very verbose. We also lack a "string-pool" structure
in the markup to deal with repeated strings, which are common in
database-like uses of a spreadsheet.
Regards,
-Rob
> - Dennis
>
> PS: I don't know whether uncompressed results are also obtained by attempting compression and reverting to STORED when the compression is unsuccessful. Some software does that sort of thing. (I have a recollection that DEFLATE can also produce uncompressed sections on discovery of their uncompressability, but the result won't be the same size as the original. I don't know if the DEFLATE compression used will produce those.)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
> Sent: Monday, June 10, 2013 05:45 AM
> To: users@openoffice.apache.org; Dennis Hamilton
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] ODF file formats vs Zip
>
> On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
> <de...@acm.org> wrote:
>> Regina is correct about the only two compressions. As far as I know, there is no way to control which compression is used. (If you save with Password, all files are always compressed.) Most of the time DEFLATE is used (although there are two files that are not usually compressed, apparently to make metadata mining simpler for non-encrypted packages).
>>
>> There is currently no way to control the compression in AOO. (The ODF specification simply stipulates the compression that must be used when compression is done, not whether compression is done for parts of unencrypted packages.)
>>
>
> Does anyone know whether AOO is smart enough to not waste time trying
> to compress already compressed files, like PNG images? This could
> make a big difference in presentations.
>
> -Rob
>
> [ ... ]
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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Re: [DISCUSS] ODF file formats vs Zip
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 12:22 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
<de...@acm.org> wrote:
> Looking into a document having images with WinZip, it appears that GIF and PNG files are not compressed and SVM files are (with great improvement). The content.xml files, which can be megabytes long, benefit greatly from compression (9:1 easily).
>
> Apache OpenOffice 3.4.1 and older versions of OpenOffice.org will compress the Thumbnail PNG. Not sure why, but it is a small file so it shouldn't matter in terms of Save performance.
>
If you really want to try a monster test case, try the spreadsheets
from this old ZDNet article from 2005:
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/ou/performance-analysis-of-openoffice-and-ms-office/120
They are in pre-ODF XML formats, but can easily be converted. Try it
as DOC and as ODS.
The files themselves look quite reasonable, due to the ZIP
compression. But then try unzipping the file. You'll see the
content.xml is much, much larger.
The problem we have with large ODF spreadsheets is our cell-by-cell
table markup is very verbose. We also lack a "string-pool" structure
in the markup to deal with repeated strings, which are common in
database-like uses of a spreadsheet.
Regards,
-Rob
> - Dennis
>
> PS: I don't know whether uncompressed results are also obtained by attempting compression and reverting to STORED when the compression is unsuccessful. Some software does that sort of thing. (I have a recollection that DEFLATE can also produce uncompressed sections on discovery of their uncompressability, but the result won't be the same size as the original. I don't know if the DEFLATE compression used will produce those.)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
> Sent: Monday, June 10, 2013 05:45 AM
> To: users@openoffice.apache.org; Dennis Hamilton
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] ODF file formats vs Zip
>
> On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
> <de...@acm.org> wrote:
>> Regina is correct about the only two compressions. As far as I know, there is no way to control which compression is used. (If you save with Password, all files are always compressed.) Most of the time DEFLATE is used (although there are two files that are not usually compressed, apparently to make metadata mining simpler for non-encrypted packages).
>>
>> There is currently no way to control the compression in AOO. (The ODF specification simply stipulates the compression that must be used when compression is done, not whether compression is done for parts of unencrypted packages.)
>>
>
> Does anyone know whether AOO is smart enough to not waste time trying
> to compress already compressed files, like PNG images? This could
> make a big difference in presentations.
>
> -Rob
>
> [ ... ]
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
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RE: [DISCUSS] ODF file formats vs Zip
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
Looking into a document having images with WinZip, it appears that GIF and PNG files are not compressed and SVM files are (with great improvement). The content.xml files, which can be megabytes long, benefit greatly from compression (9:1 easily).
Apache OpenOffice 3.4.1 and older versions of OpenOffice.org will compress the Thumbnail PNG. Not sure why, but it is a small file so it shouldn't matter in terms of Save performance.
- Dennis
PS: I don't know whether uncompressed results are also obtained by attempting compression and reverting to STORED when the compression is unsuccessful. Some software does that sort of thing. (I have a recollection that DEFLATE can also produce uncompressed sections on discovery of their uncompressability, but the result won't be the same size as the original. I don't know if the DEFLATE compression used will produce those.)
-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
Sent: Monday, June 10, 2013 05:45 AM
To: users@openoffice.apache.org; Dennis Hamilton
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] ODF file formats vs Zip
On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
<de...@acm.org> wrote:
> Regina is correct about the only two compressions. As far as I know, there is no way to control which compression is used. (If you save with Password, all files are always compressed.) Most of the time DEFLATE is used (although there are two files that are not usually compressed, apparently to make metadata mining simpler for non-encrypted packages).
>
> There is currently no way to control the compression in AOO. (The ODF specification simply stipulates the compression that must be used when compression is done, not whether compression is done for parts of unencrypted packages.)
>
Does anyone know whether AOO is smart enough to not waste time trying
to compress already compressed files, like PNG images? This could
make a big difference in presentations.
-Rob
[ ... ]
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Re: [DISCUSS] ODF file formats vs Zip
Posted by Martin Groenescheij <Ma...@Groenescheij.COM>.
On 10/06/2013 10:44 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
> <de...@acm.org> wrote:
>> Regina is correct about the only two compressions. As far as I know, there is no way to control which compression is used. (If you save with Password, all files are always compressed.) Most of the time DEFLATE is used (although there are two files that are not usually compressed, apparently to make metadata mining simpler for non-encrypted packages).
>>
>> There is currently no way to control the compression in AOO. (The ODF specification simply stipulates the compression that must be used when compression is done, not whether compression is done for parts of unencrypted packages.)
>>
> Does anyone know whether AOO is smart enough to not waste time trying
> to compress already compressed files, like PNG images? This could
> make a big difference in presentations.
>
> -Rob
Could anyone explain why it is necessary to compress Autorecovery
information. it is only used to recover when the system crashes.
In my opinion it should only compress when a user close the document.
>
>> I don't think it is the compression that is responsible for the slow-downs, it has to do with other work that goes on in order to save a file.
>>
>> If you are careful about regularly saving manually while you are working, and you work into a new copy so the starting version can't be damaged, you can disable auto-save to avoid being interrupted in the midst of something you are doing. There may be some glitches that cause the time to increase in certain situations and those are caught from time to time. Using the latest version usually includes those improvements. I suspect there are some other performance issues around Save (and Auto-Save) that are more involved.
>>
>> - Dennis
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Regina Henschel [mailto:rb.henschel@t-online.de]
>> Sent: Sunday, June 9, 2013 11:41 AM
>> To: users@openoffice.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] ODF file formats vs Zip
>>
>> Hi Johnny,
>>
>> Johnny Rosenberg schrieb:
>>> When working with big files, in my case spreadsheets, but possibly
>>> other types of office files, saving the file will in some cases take a
>>> lot of time. This is particularly annoying when auto-saving is
>>> enabled. As I understand it, an ODF is a couple of files, most of them
>>> XML files, brought together in a single file, then compressed to the
>>> zip format.
>>>
>>> Does the ODF standard specify the compression ratio?
>> There are two methods possible STORED and DEFLATED, see
>> http://docs.oasis-open.org/office/v1.2/os/OpenDocument-v1.2-os-part3.html,
>> section 2.2.
>>
>> If not, it would
>>> be convenient if the user could specify that. For example, if I prefer
>>> saving to be as fast as possible, I could specify no compression at
>>> all, just bring the files together in a tar-ball (if that's allowed)
>>> or as an uncompressed zip.
>>>
>>> I don't know how much of the required time to save a file is used for
>>> compression, but I imagine that there is room for speed enhancements
>>> here.
>>>
>>> If this is not the way to go, maybe the extension could change as
>>> well, indicating this is another file format, although conversion to
>>> and from ODF should be very straight forward…
>> Using another compression is still .zip file format.
>>
>> ODF has a flat file format without container too. This is implemented in
>> LO but not in AOO. But in the flat format all pictures are stored in
>> base64, because there is no folder to store them in original format.
>>
>>> Thoughts about this?
>> It would need tests to see, whether the method STORED is significant faster.
>>
>> Kind regards
>> Regina
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@openoffice.apache.org
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@openoffice.apache.org
>>
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Re: [DISCUSS] ODF file formats vs Zip
Posted by Oliver Brinzing <Ol...@gmx.de>.
Hi,
> AFAIK Images are not compressed; i stumbled over this with the added SVG format which is still added
> uncompressed (we have a task for it). HTH!
i prefer *linking* pictures instead of saving them every time - and especially for bigger writer
documents, use the "Working with Master Documents and Subdocuments" feature.
Regards
Oliver
Re: [DISCUSS] ODF file formats vs Zip
Posted by Armin Le Grand <Ar...@me.com>.
Hi Rob,
On 10.06.2013 14:44, Rob Weir wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
> <de...@acm.org> wrote:
>> Regina is correct about the only two compressions. As far as I know, there is no way to control which compression is used. (If you save with Password, all files are always compressed.) Most of the time DEFLATE is used (although there are two files that are not usually compressed, apparently to make metadata mining simpler for non-encrypted packages).
>>
>> There is currently no way to control the compression in AOO. (The ODF specification simply stipulates the compression that must be used when compression is done, not whether compression is done for parts of unencrypted packages.)
>>
> Does anyone know whether AOO is smart enough to not waste time trying
> to compress already compressed files, like PNG images? This could
> make a big difference in presentations.
AFAIK Images are not compressed; i stumbled over this with the added SVG
format which is still added uncompressed (we have a task for it). HTH!
Sincerely,
Armin
>
> -Rob
>
>
>> I don't think it is the compression that is responsible for the slow-downs, it has to do with other work that goes on in order to save a file.
>>
>> If you are careful about regularly saving manually while you are working, and you work into a new copy so the starting version can't be damaged, you can disable auto-save to avoid being interrupted in the midst of something you are doing. There may be some glitches that cause the time to increase in certain situations and those are caught from time to time. Using the latest version usually includes those improvements. I suspect there are some other performance issues around Save (and Auto-Save) that are more involved.
>>
>> - Dennis
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Regina Henschel [mailto:rb.henschel@t-online.de]
>> Sent: Sunday, June 9, 2013 11:41 AM
>> To: users@openoffice.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] ODF file formats vs Zip
>>
>> Hi Johnny,
>>
>> Johnny Rosenberg schrieb:
>>> When working with big files, in my case spreadsheets, but possibly
>>> other types of office files, saving the file will in some cases take a
>>> lot of time. This is particularly annoying when auto-saving is
>>> enabled. As I understand it, an ODF is a couple of files, most of them
>>> XML files, brought together in a single file, then compressed to the
>>> zip format.
>>>
>>> Does the ODF standard specify the compression ratio?
>> There are two methods possible STORED and DEFLATED, see
>> http://docs.oasis-open.org/office/v1.2/os/OpenDocument-v1.2-os-part3.html,
>> section 2.2.
>>
>> If not, it would
>>> be convenient if the user could specify that. For example, if I prefer
>>> saving to be as fast as possible, I could specify no compression at
>>> all, just bring the files together in a tar-ball (if that's allowed)
>>> or as an uncompressed zip.
>>>
>>> I don't know how much of the required time to save a file is used for
>>> compression, but I imagine that there is room for speed enhancements
>>> here.
>>>
>>> If this is not the way to go, maybe the extension could change as
>>> well, indicating this is another file format, although conversion to
>>> and from ODF should be very straight forward…
>> Using another compression is still .zip file format.
>>
>> ODF has a flat file format without container too. This is implemented in
>> LO but not in AOO. But in the flat format all pictures are stored in
>> base64, because there is no folder to store them in original format.
>>
>>> Thoughts about this?
>> It would need tests to see, whether the method STORED is significant faster.
>>
>> Kind regards
>> Regina
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@openoffice.apache.org
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@openoffice.apache.org
>>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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--
ALG
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Re: [DISCUSS] ODF file formats vs Zip
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
<de...@acm.org> wrote:
> Regina is correct about the only two compressions. As far as I know, there is no way to control which compression is used. (If you save with Password, all files are always compressed.) Most of the time DEFLATE is used (although there are two files that are not usually compressed, apparently to make metadata mining simpler for non-encrypted packages).
>
> There is currently no way to control the compression in AOO. (The ODF specification simply stipulates the compression that must be used when compression is done, not whether compression is done for parts of unencrypted packages.)
>
Does anyone know whether AOO is smart enough to not waste time trying
to compress already compressed files, like PNG images? This could
make a big difference in presentations.
-Rob
> I don't think it is the compression that is responsible for the slow-downs, it has to do with other work that goes on in order to save a file.
>
> If you are careful about regularly saving manually while you are working, and you work into a new copy so the starting version can't be damaged, you can disable auto-save to avoid being interrupted in the midst of something you are doing. There may be some glitches that cause the time to increase in certain situations and those are caught from time to time. Using the latest version usually includes those improvements. I suspect there are some other performance issues around Save (and Auto-Save) that are more involved.
>
> - Dennis
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Regina Henschel [mailto:rb.henschel@t-online.de]
> Sent: Sunday, June 9, 2013 11:41 AM
> To: users@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] ODF file formats vs Zip
>
> Hi Johnny,
>
> Johnny Rosenberg schrieb:
>> When working with big files, in my case spreadsheets, but possibly
>> other types of office files, saving the file will in some cases take a
>> lot of time. This is particularly annoying when auto-saving is
>> enabled. As I understand it, an ODF is a couple of files, most of them
>> XML files, brought together in a single file, then compressed to the
>> zip format.
>>
>> Does the ODF standard specify the compression ratio?
>
> There are two methods possible STORED and DEFLATED, see
> http://docs.oasis-open.org/office/v1.2/os/OpenDocument-v1.2-os-part3.html,
> section 2.2.
>
> If not, it would
>> be convenient if the user could specify that. For example, if I prefer
>> saving to be as fast as possible, I could specify no compression at
>> all, just bring the files together in a tar-ball (if that's allowed)
>> or as an uncompressed zip.
>>
>> I don't know how much of the required time to save a file is used for
>> compression, but I imagine that there is room for speed enhancements
>> here.
>>
>> If this is not the way to go, maybe the extension could change as
>> well, indicating this is another file format, although conversion to
>> and from ODF should be very straight forward…
>
> Using another compression is still .zip file format.
>
> ODF has a flat file format without container too. This is implemented in
> LO but not in AOO. But in the flat format all pictures are stored in
> base64, because there is no folder to store them in original format.
>
>>
>> Thoughts about this?
>
> It would need tests to see, whether the method STORED is significant faster.
>
> Kind regards
> Regina
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
>
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RE: [DISCUSS] ODF file formats vs Zip
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
Regina is correct about the only two compressions. As far as I know, there is no way to control which compression is used. (If you save with Password, all files are always compressed.) Most of the time DEFLATE is used (although there are two files that are not usually compressed, apparently to make metadata mining simpler for non-encrypted packages).
There is currently no way to control the compression in AOO. (The ODF specification simply stipulates the compression that must be used when compression is done, not whether compression is done for parts of unencrypted packages.)
I don't think it is the compression that is responsible for the slow-downs, it has to do with other work that goes on in order to save a file.
If you are careful about regularly saving manually while you are working, and you work into a new copy so the starting version can't be damaged, you can disable auto-save to avoid being interrupted in the midst of something you are doing. There may be some glitches that cause the time to increase in certain situations and those are caught from time to time. Using the latest version usually includes those improvements. I suspect there are some other performance issues around Save (and Auto-Save) that are more involved.
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Regina Henschel [mailto:rb.henschel@t-online.de]
Sent: Sunday, June 9, 2013 11:41 AM
To: users@openoffice.apache.org
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] ODF file formats vs Zip
Hi Johnny,
Johnny Rosenberg schrieb:
> When working with big files, in my case spreadsheets, but possibly
> other types of office files, saving the file will in some cases take a
> lot of time. This is particularly annoying when auto-saving is
> enabled. As I understand it, an ODF is a couple of files, most of them
> XML files, brought together in a single file, then compressed to the
> zip format.
>
> Does the ODF standard specify the compression ratio?
There are two methods possible STORED and DEFLATED, see
http://docs.oasis-open.org/office/v1.2/os/OpenDocument-v1.2-os-part3.html,
section 2.2.
If not, it would
> be convenient if the user could specify that. For example, if I prefer
> saving to be as fast as possible, I could specify no compression at
> all, just bring the files together in a tar-ball (if that's allowed)
> or as an uncompressed zip.
>
> I don't know how much of the required time to save a file is used for
> compression, but I imagine that there is room for speed enhancements
> here.
>
> If this is not the way to go, maybe the extension could change as
> well, indicating this is another file format, although conversion to
> and from ODF should be very straight forward…
Using another compression is still .zip file format.
ODF has a flat file format without container too. This is implemented in
LO but not in AOO. But in the flat format all pictures are stored in
base64, because there is no folder to store them in original format.
>
> Thoughts about this?
It would need tests to see, whether the method STORED is significant faster.
Kind regards
Regina
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Re: [DISCUSS] ODF file formats vs Zip
Posted by Regina Henschel <rb...@t-online.de>.
Hi Johnny,
Johnny Rosenberg schrieb:
> When working with big files, in my case spreadsheets, but possibly
> other types of office files, saving the file will in some cases take a
> lot of time. This is particularly annoying when auto-saving is
> enabled. As I understand it, an ODF is a couple of files, most of them
> XML files, brought together in a single file, then compressed to the
> zip format.
>
> Does the ODF standard specify the compression ratio?
There are two methods possible STORED and DEFLATED, see
http://docs.oasis-open.org/office/v1.2/os/OpenDocument-v1.2-os-part3.html,
section 2.2.
If not, it would
> be convenient if the user could specify that. For example, if I prefer
> saving to be as fast as possible, I could specify no compression at
> all, just bring the files together in a tar-ball (if that's allowed)
> or as an uncompressed zip.
>
> I don't know how much of the required time to save a file is used for
> compression, but I imagine that there is room for speed enhancements
> here.
>
> If this is not the way to go, maybe the extension could change as
> well, indicating this is another file format, although conversion to
> and from ODF should be very straight forward…
Using another compression is still .zip file format.
ODF has a flat file format without container too. This is implemented in
LO but not in AOO. But in the flat format all pictures are stored in
base64, because there is no folder to store them in original format.
>
> Thoughts about this?
It would need tests to see, whether the method STORED is significant faster.
Kind regards
Regina
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